ESPN poll: Jordan dominates as better than Lebron

[Hardtop Hero]

Now let me say, I'm far from a Lebron hater. In fact, he's my third favorite player of all time and I was rooting for him to get his 4th chip. I have him at 2nd or 3rd all time - I go back and forth between him and Kareem. However, there is a clear distinction between Jordan and him. Great thing about this poll is that they broke it down into age groups, and he even dominates among milennials. So a small group of loud detractors on Insidehoops, or elsewhere is really meaningless. 20+ years after he retired, he's still looked at as GOAT by the majority of NBA fans young and old, casual or more involved. That likely won't change over even the next 20+ years.

GOAT gonna GOAT

So anyone can disagree if they like, but that's good enough for me. :pimp:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

[Whoah10115]

LeBron is a better passer, to be fair.

[Axe]

Lmao let be the one to break this first. You know espn when it comes to talking about jordan themselves.

[RogueBorg]

LeBron is a better passer, to be fair.

yes he is.

[Gimmedarock]

Last gasp for old heads. Guarantee this will change in a few years. When Bron has every record in the book, plus 4 or 5 rings, he’ll definitely move pass MJ. Nostalgia will always keep some people from giving current guys a look.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron is a better passer, to be fair.

Is he, though? For one, how many shooting guards have averaged more assists than Jordan? Maybe 3-4? And has Jordan been surrounded by as many weapons? In the 1988 season, Jordan played the final 24 games at PG and averaged nearly 11 assists. It makes you wonder if he took on that role more, kind of like LeBron, would he have averaged a lot more?

Jordan's first responsibility was to score amid a lack of scoring on his team. But even when he decided to rise to the occasion, he could drop dimes. In the 1991 finals, he averaged 11.4 assists, which only has two players who have averaged more assists in a finals series (Bob Cousy and Magic Johnson, with Magic having the first 5 records). I watched MJ play nearly all of his career and his basketball IQ was remarkable, including passing.

What's also interesting to note is how many turnovers each averaged. I have to wonder who was the more efficient passer with regards to assisting. How many passes ended up out of bounds, per game, or ended up being stolen or tipped by the opposing team's defender. Lebron has averaged more turnovers in his career and their assist/turnover ratios are almost equal.

[Hardtop Hero]

Last gasp for old heads. Guarantee this will change in a few years. When Bron has every record in the book, plus 4 or 5 rings, he’ll definitely move pass MJ. Nostalgia will always keep some people from giving current guys a look.

And yet the millennials overwhelmingly chose Jordan too. His shoe brand dwarfs all others, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, including millennials as well. If it makes you feel good to hold on to what "will" happen, by all means do so. At present, it just is what it is. lol at it just being "old heads" when the poll clearly shows they separated age groups. Now go ahead and make excuses for that too. "uh, well, they just grew up with Jordan being stuffed down their throats by old heads. Yes, yes that's it"

Hell of a long time for nostalgia. Imagine people holding on to "nostalgia" by thinking Jerry West was better than Jordan in the 90s, because he played in the 70s.

[Hardtop Hero]

Is he, though? For one, how many shooting guards have averaged more assists than Jordan? Maybe 3-4? And has Jordan been surrounded by as many weapons? In the 1988 season, Jordan played the final 24 games at PG and averaged nearly 11 assists. It makes you wonder if he took on that role more, kind of like LeBron, would he have averaged a lot more?

Jordan's first responsibility was to score amid a lack of scoring on his team. But even when he decided to rise to the occasion, he could drop dimes. In the 1991 finals, he averaged 11.4 assists, which only has two players who have averaged more assists in a finals series (Bob Cousy and Magic Johnson, with Magic having the first 5 records). I watched MJ play nearly all of his career and his basketball IQ was remarkable, including passing.

What's also interesting to note is how many turnovers each averaged. I have to wonder who was the more efficient passer with regards to assisting. How many passes ended up out of bounds, per game, or ended up being stolen or tipped by the opposing team's defender. Lebron has averaged more turnovers in his career and their assist/turnover ratios are almost equal.

Correct. Don't forget the time he had 10 triple doubles in 11 games when he was moved to pg. His first priority was scoring, but he certainly proved he could pass at an all time elite level when he chose to.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan wins 57-43% on trust to pass the ball. That tells you all you need to know (that this is a popularity contest, not logical answers). :lol

This poll is useless after a 5 week non-stop media campaign to promote Jordan so Jordan has a massive bounce. Run the poll 6 months from now to get a real picture.

For perspective, a 3-4 day political convention is worth a bounce of around 5-7 points in polling. MJ had 5 weeks.

The poll also was run by the entity that ran the MJ hype. It would look bad if MJ did poorly in a poll after they spent 5 weeks obsessing with MJ. What was the wording? "Between MJ, the GOAT, and LeBron James, a player for the Lakers, do you...?" :lol


Don't forget the time he had 10 triple doubles in 11 games when he was moved to pg. His first priority was scoring, but he certainly proved he could pass at an all time elite level when he chose to.

This is news to his coaches at the time.

[Hardtop Hero]

Jordan wins 57-43% on trust to pass the ball. That tells you all you need to know (that is is a popularity contest, not logical answers). :lol

This poll is useless after a 5 week non-stop media campaign to promote Jordan. Run the poll 6 months from now to get a real picture.

And this is the beauty of it. What you think, in the grand scheme of things, just doesn't matter. Jordan's legacy is secure, and will be in 6 months, 6 years or 60 years. There will always be a minority of people who think the moon is made of green cheese, for example. Those people aren't taken seriously. Neither should anyone be who really tries to argue Lebron > MJ. And I say this as an ardent Lebron defender. As someone who doesn't think he's gotten a fair shake at times regarding his career (though he's still considered top 5 by most). It's just the better than Jordan stuff has always been silly, and where the line needs to be drawn. Most sensible people agree.

[G0ATbe]

Last gasp for old heads. Guarantee this will change in a few years. When Bron has every record in the book, plus 4 or 5 rings, he’ll definitely move pass MJ. Nostalgia will always keep some people from giving current guys a look.

Pretty much.

[Roundball_Rock]

What you think, in the grand scheme of things, just doesn't matter.

So you post a poll but public opinion doesn't matter?

I am not surprised MJ won the poll but the margins can't be taken seriously given the context of timing and the entity that commissioned the poll.

The real question isn't where MJ stands versus LeBron in 2020. MJ obviously has a large edge today. The question is where they stand in 2035, 2040, 2050 etc. LeBron's career is not over. We have to see what his final record looks like. Moreover, Jordan benefits from media bias in favor of him (which the doc "coverage" exposed) from people who grew up watching MJ as kids or early in adulthood (people like Bayless). Eventually the LeBron generation will take over those media positions. What happens when MJ is covered without non-stop positive spin on the ball?

Kareem can't be ignored either for the long term. When MJ, LeBron lose the benefits of recency bias Kareem will look better against them.

[Hardtop Hero]

So you post a poll but public opinion doesn't matter?

I am not surprised MJ won the poll but the margins can't be taken seriously given the context of timing and the entity that commissioned the poll.

The real question isn't where MJ stands versus LeBron in 2020. MJ obviously has a large edge today. The question is where they stand in 2035, 2040, 2050 etc. LeBron's career is not over. We have to see what his final record looks like. Moreover, Jordan benefits from media bias in favor of him (which the doc "coverage" exposed) from people who grew up watching MJ as kids or early in adulthood (people like Bayless). Eventually the LeBron generation will take over those media positions. What happens when MJ is covered without non-stop positive spin on the ball?

Kareem can't be ignored either for the long term. When MJ, LeBron lose the benefits of recency bias Kareem will look better against them.

I don't necessarily disagree that depending on what Lebron accomplishes for the rest of his career, the subject may be revisited. However, I'm talking about how things are today, May 18 2020. And that is that the vast majority of the public has him over Lebron, by a significant margin. As they should.

Regarding the "Lebron generation" taking over coverage, I don't know what part of "they broke it into separate age groups and Jordan still won significantly" you're not getting.


To account for the generation gap -- Jordan last played in the season before James entered the league in 2003 -- the 600 respondents were split evenly into two age groups: 18-34 and 35 and older. Jordan naturally led by almost 4-to-1 (79%) in the older half, but even in the younger group, Jordan was preferred by nearly 2-to-1 (66%).

Also, those 35 year olds who overwhelmingly think Jordan is better aren't going anywhere for a while. Mix them with the under 35s who have Jordan as being better and his status isn't dropping considerably anytime soon. With Youtube, and whatever comes next to archive games, new generations will find Jordan that wouldn't have in the past. Again, Lebron getting a 4 or 5 title would definitely make it interesting, but he'd still be behind Jordan in total, and have more glaring playoff failures than him (even taking into account discrepancy in team talent - 2011 for example).

[Roundball_Rock]

It is name identification. Kids have been told MJ is the GOAT. It is the same reason why JFK always is 1st or 2nd in GOAT president polls when experts have him mid-pack.

LeBron will need experts who shape public opinion in the media who grew up on him like Nick Wright to push him or to simply not put a pro-MJ spin out to benefit.


ith Youtube, and whatever comes next to archive games, new generations will find Jordan that wouldn't have in the past

The difference is that puts MJ at parity with Kareem and others. Right now MJ has a huge advantage as the media designated GOAT.


gain, Lebron getting a 4 or 5 title would definitely make it interesting, but he'd still be behind Jordan in total, and have more glaring playoff failures than him

LeBron's argument will be career accomplishments, team impact. Jordan's peak level and team success. LeBron will post up well against MJ. Kareem is a bigger problem because LeBron's argument will mirror Kareem's in key ways.

Russell could re-emerge as well. People obsess more about rings. Well, who has by far the most. He just doesn't get media recognition today. People who want to go winning think MJ is the GOAT for that.

[sdot_thadon]

Wow. The timing, the results.....:oldlol:

[Manny98]

It's hard to take a poll seriously when MJ wins in the better passer category :facepalm

[86Celtics]

It is name identification. Kids have been told MJ is the GOAT. It is the same reason why JFK always is 1st or 2nd in GOAT president polls when experts have him mid-pack.

LeBron will need experts who shape public opinion in the media who grew up on him like Nick Wright to push him or to simply not put a pro-MJ spin out to benefit.


Nick Wright the expert. Do you have any idea how bitter and resentful you sound?

[Hardtop Hero]

It is name identification. Kids have been told MJ is the GOAT. It is the same reason why JFK always is 1st or 2nd in GOAT president polls when experts have him mid-pack.

LeBron will need experts who shape public opinion in the media who grew up on him like Nick Wright to push him or to simply not put a pro-MJ spin out to benefit.



The difference is that puts MJ at parity with Kareem and others. Right now MJ has a huge advantage as the media designated GOAT.



LeBron's argument will be career accomplishments, team impact. Jordan's peak level and team success. LeBron will post up well against MJ. Kareem is a bigger problem because LeBron's argument will mirror Kareem's in key ways.

Russell could re-emerge as well. People obsess more about rings. Well, who has by far the most. He just doesn't get media recognition today. People who want to go winning think MJ is the GOAT for that.

Your entire argument seems to boil down to "Media says MJ is GOAT so that's what they believe" as if that's the only determining factor. As if the majority of knowledgable fans who have followed the NBA and his entire career are somehow just mesmerized by media hype. I could easily say "Well those that don't are just trying to be contrarians". By the way, Lebron has had no shortage of media hype and notoriety himself. But I'm simply saying what is. For example. Trump is President. I can offer all types of reasons for why that is, why it's messed up, what lead us here and all the rest of it but the fact remains, he's President whether I like it or not.

Fact is, you can come up with all the "reasons" the majority of the basketball world has him as GOAT, and over Lebron but it just is what it is. If you're so bothered by it that it comforts you to come up with a variety of "reasons" that's the case , by all means do so. It sill wont' change it.

[sdot_thadon]

Any poll that has Mj ahead as a passer or as the guy you trust to get you the ball is rather dubious at best.

[Hardtop Hero]

Any poll that has Mj ahead as a passer or as the guy you trust to get you the ball is rather dubious at best.


See previous page for info on Jordan's assist numbers when put into more of a playmaker role.

[Goldrush25]

And this is the beauty of it. What you think, in the grand scheme of things, just doesn't matter. Jordan's legacy is secure, and will be in 6 months, 6 years or 60 years. There will always be a minority of people who think the moon is made of green cheese, for example. Those people aren't taken seriously. Neither should anyone be who really tries to argue Lebron > MJ. And I say this as an ardent Lebron defender. As someone who doesn't think he's gotten a fair shake at times regarding his career (though he's still considered top 5 by most). It's just the better than Jordan stuff has always been silly, and where the line needs to be drawn. Most sensible people agree.

If you're really being sensible, then you'd know that Lebron's grade is incomplete until his career's over. If you're saying one has the argument locked up over the other when one is still adding to his resume, then you're just dug in, no matter how much you're trying to portray yourself as sensible.

[Roundball_Rock]

Any poll that has Mj ahead as a passer or as the guy you trust to get you the ball is rather dubious at best.

Exactly. :lol


See previous page for info on Jordan's assist numbers when put into more of a playmaker role.

A role he was removed from because...his coaches couldn't trust him to get the ball to teammates.


Your entire argument seems to boil down to "Media says MJ is GOAT so that's what they believe" as if that's the only determining factor. As if the majority of knowledgable fans who have followed the NBA and his entire career are somehow just mesmerized by media hype

Then surely, since it is a well thought out and studied opinion, they could articulate why they concluded he is GOAT, right? Except most fans can't.


By the way, Lebron has had no shortage of media hype and notoriety himself

Which helped him get to 2nd but he is presented as #2. Surprise, surprise that is where he lands in public opinion. Similar to the comment above, most fans who have LeBron #2 can't tell you why he is better than Kareem, Wilt, or Russell.


Fact is, you can come up with all the "reasons" the majority of the basketball world has him as GOAT

These same polls have JFK and Reagan as 1-2 GOATs (order flips). No historian has either as GOAT.

[sdot_thadon]

See previous page for info on Jordan's assist numbers when put into more of a playmaker role.

Im as big an Mj fan as I am a Lebron fan, I know the numbers. He's not in Lebron's league as a passer, just as Lebron's not in his league as a scorer. Not to say either guy is any less than elite at either aspect but there's a clear defined line of separation.

[Roundball_Rock]

Plus LeBron is an era where there aren't 12-14 guys averaging 10+ assists.

[Goldrush25]

Im as big an Mj fan as I am a Lebron fan, I know the numbers. He's not in Lebron's league as a passer, just as Lebron's not in his league as a scorer. Not to say either guy is any less than elite at either aspect but there's a clear defined line of separation.

The problem I have is that wherever MJ has something that maybe he didn't do as well as Lebron the argument's "we he could've done it better if he wanted to." From what I've observed, even Lebron fans that think he's the GOAT are by and large always willing to concede that Jordan was better at certain things. Can't get that from MJ fans, they give nothing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

We're talking about what actually happened, not what could've happened. Jordan was a talented playmaker. Hell he was great at most things, but Lebron has him when it comes to playmaking.

Voting MJ as most likely to get you the ball is the most egregious. Holy hell, one of the main criticisms against Lebron is that he's willing to pass too much.

[Hardtop Hero]

The problem I have is that wherever MJ has something that maybe he didn't do as well as Lebron the argument's "we he could've done it better if he wanted to." From what I've observed, even Lebron fans that think he's the GOAT are by and large always willing to concede that Jordan was better at certain things. Can't get that from MJ fans, they give nothing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

We're talking about what actually happened, not what could've happened. Jordan was a talented playmaker. Hell he was great at most things, but Lebron has him when it comes to playmaking.

Voting MJ as most likely to get you the ball is the most egregious. Holy hell, one of the main criticisms against Lebron is that he's willing to pass too much.

He averaged 32 8 and 8 in a season. 11apg in the Finals. 10 trip dubs in 11 games. Etc. It's not so much that we can't concede that Lebron has advantages over MJ, it's the idea that Lebron is some vastly better passer, which I don't believe holds up under scrutiny. Jordan wasn't in a playmaker role, but when he was put in it, his assist numbers rose exceedingly. Lebron's certainly a better rebounder. Again, Lebron is my 3rd favorite player. I have him top 2-3 all time. I just call it how I see it.

Regarding likely to get you the ball, eh I disagree with Lebron over Jordan but there are numerous Jordan highlights of him being a willing passer in huge moments, so he would do it if the situation called for it. I actually don't feel its "egregious" if you look at it from the perspective of, between the two who is the ultimate winner and thus who would you trust to get you the ball if the situation warranted it.

[RogueBorg]

Lebron's certainly a better rebounder.



Jordan averaged more offensive rebounds per game.

[Roundball_Rock]

The problem I have is that wherever MJ has something that maybe he didn't do as well as Lebron the argument's "we he could've done it better if he wanted to." From what I've observed, even Lebron fans that think he's the GOAT are by and large always willing to concede that Jordan was better at certain things. Can't get that from MJ fans, they give nothing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Exactly. Can you name another historical figure that gets that seem ridiculous benefit? Jordan is like a religion to his fans now. Reason and facts don't matter. It is all faith-based. MJ has to be #1 at everything to them.


He averaged 32 8 and 8 in a season. 11apg in the Finals. 10 trip dubs in 11 games.

Why did his coaches remove him from that role if it went so well?

The triple doubles are misleading. Of course it wasn't covered in the "doc", but Jordan was on record saying at the time he was stat padding. He literally got updates from coaches on what he needed to get triple doubles.

[BigShotBob]

Exactly. Can you name another historical figure that gets that seem ridiculous benefit? Jordan is like a religion to his fans now. Reason and facts don't matter. It is all faith-based. MJ has to be #1 at everything to them.



Why did his coaches remove him from that role if it went so well?

The triple doubles are misleading. Of course it wasn't covered in the "doc", but Jordan was on record saying at the time he was stat padding. He literally got updates from coaches on what he needed to get triple doubles.

So....Lebron never stat padded? :roll:

[ImKobe]

Wow. The timing, the results.....:oldlol:

Absolutely demolished Lebron on his own website.. 22 years after his last Finals. :roll:



It's hard to take a poll seriously when MJ wins in the better passer category :facepalm


MJ averaged more assists and had a better AST-TO ratio in 1991 than Lebron in any of his title runs (8.4 AST : 2.5 TO for Jordan, this also includes being a much better scorer than James in any of his). Jordan is a superior player all-around.

[Walk on Water]

LeBron is a better passer, to be fair.


No. Jordan better when you take turnovers into account.

[Walk on Water]

It's hard to take a poll seriously when MJ wins in the better passer category :facepalm


Jordan had less turnovers and almost as many assists per game. Much better passer.

[Walk on Water]

Last gasp for old heads. Guarantee this will change in a few years. When Bron has every record in the book, plus 4 or 5 rings, he’ll definitely move pass MJ. Nostalgia will always keep some people from giving current guys a look.


Maybe in terms of longevity but as far as peak it’s never going to happen and Lebron would have to win like 7.

[Goldrush25]

He averaged 32 8 and 8 in a season. 11apg in the Finals. 10 trip dubs in 11 games. Etc. It's not so much that we can't concede that Lebron has advantages over MJ, it's the idea that Lebron is some vastly better passer, which I don't believe holds up under scrutiny. Jordan wasn't in a playmaker role, but when he was put in it, his assist numbers rose exceedingly. Lebron's certainly a better rebounder. Again, Lebron is my 3rd favorite player. I have him top 2-3 all time. I just call it how I see it.

Regarding likely to get you the ball, eh I disagree with Lebron over Jordan but there are numerous Jordan highlights of him being a willing passer in huge moments, so he would do it if the situation called for it. I actually don't feel its "egregious" if you look at it from the perspective of, between the two who is the ultimate winner and thus who would you trust to get you the ball if the situation warranted it.

This wasn't a question of degree. It was a simple question of who's better. The question wasn't "Is MJ almost as good of a passer as Lebron." It's who is better? There is not evidence available that suggests MJ is a better passer or more willing.

Those results pretty clearly illuminate the bias of the poll. The lengths people are pursing to rationalize it is just as bad. You guys can give Lebron this one edge (which shouldn't have to be given because it's apparent) and still say MJ is better.

[BigShotBob]

This wasn't a question of degree. It was a simple question of who's better. The question wasn't "Is MJ almost as good of a passer as Lebron." It's who is better? There is not evidence available that suggests MJ is a better passer or more willing.

Those results pretty clearly illuminate the bias of the poll. The lengths people are pursing to rationalize it is just as bad. You guys can give Lebron this one edge (which shouldn't have to be given because it's apparent) and still say MJ is better.

Nah MJ was better. Drive and kick to the three is not impressive. Or passing it from the post while the court is spread wide open. Or passing it to a wide open Anthony Davis or giving him an oop. You know how many assists MJ would average if he played with a dominant big? :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Those results pretty clearly illuminate the bias of the poll. The lengths people are pursing to rationalize it is just as bad. You guys can give Lebron this one edge (which shouldn't have to be given because it's apparent) and still say MJ is better.

There were people on ISH years ago who were telling me MJ>KAJ as a post player. It is crazy. Yet we have people acting like these are rational, reasoned opinions.

[Goldrush25]

Nah MJ was better. Drive and kick to the three is not impressive. Or passing it from the post while the court is spread wide open. Or passing it to a wide open Anthony Davis or giving him an oop. You know how many assists MJ would average if he played with a dominant big? :lol

We're not talking about what would've happened. We're talking about what did happen.

You're giving MJ credit for stuff he didn't do. :lol:

[sdot_thadon]

The problem I have is that wherever MJ has something that maybe he didn't do as well as Lebron the argument's "we he could've done it better if he wanted to." From what I've observed, even Lebron fans that think he's the GOAT are by and large always willing to concede that Jordan was better at certain things. Can't get that from MJ fans, they give nothing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

We're talking about what actually happened, not what could've happened. Jordan was a talented playmaker. Hell he was great at most things, but Lebron has him when it comes to playmaking.

Voting MJ as most likely to get you the ball is the most egregious. Holy hell, one of the main criticisms against Lebron is that he's willing to pass too much.

Oh yeah, for sure. He could have been Steph Curry from 3 if he chose to, he decided not to be great at them... He also could have been a 90% ft shooter, I mean he made them everytime with his eyes closed right? He's a better passer than all but like one or 2 guys to ever live because he had a stretch of triple double games once when he was young. And so forth. You're right he's the only guy in history that somehow gets credit for what if scenarios while every other player is stuck simply with what they were actually able to do.

[Bankaii]

The amount of slurping fans do for MJ is outstanding. Dude is literally becoming a myth. Getting credit for things that are blatantly false.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

The amount of slurping fans do for MJ is outstanding. Dude is literally becoming a myth. Getting credit for things that are blatantly false.

I am a Pacers fan and a Lebron fan. Did you watch the show yet? It was eye opening for me. I do not know if I have LeBron has the GOAT any longer. This movie changed people’s minds.

[Goldrush25]

I am a Pacers fan and a Lebron fan. Did you watch the show yet? It was eye opening for me. I do not know if I have LeBron has the GOAT any longer. This movie changed people’s minds.

I think reasonable people can make a case for either guy, but this is more of a case of recency bias.

MJ is getting a big bump from this puff piece, and that's truthfully what it is, not an actual documentary. Lebron's out of sight out of mind right now. Once we get the NBA back, things will go back to normal.

[BigShotBob]

We're not talking about what would've happened. We're talking about what did happen.

You're giving MJ credit for stuff he didn't do. :lol:

Now we both know Lebron stans do that all the time :oldlol:

[red1]

lebron needs one more. then he'll have a real case.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

lebron needs one more. then he'll have a real case.

I do not think so any longer. LeBron did not win three in a row like Mike did. I don’t like how he left the Cavaliers twice because I am also a fan for Cleveland too. I wish Lebron could win more for us. Mike brought six to Chicago. That’s incredible.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're right he's the only guy in history that somehow gets credit for what if scenarios while every other player is stuck simply with what they were actually able to do.

Not just players. Imagine the MJ nonsense with other historical figures. "LBJ is the GOAT because he would have ended the Vietnam War if he got another term." No one says anything like that because he is assessed on what he actually did, not baseless speculation.


The amount of slurping fans do for MJ is outstanding. Dude is literally becoming a myth. Getting credit for things that are blatantly false.

The rings are getting amusing. 7, 8, 9, even 10 rings "if" "if" "if". You see people with a straight face say stuff like "MJ really has 8 rings."


This movie changed people’s minds.

Based on what? It is a puff piece about 1 player. It said nothing about why he >Kareem, Wilt, LeBron, Russell, Bird, Magic, etc.

[red1]

I do not think so any longer. LeBron did not win three in a row like Mike did. I don’t like how he left the Cavaliers twice because I am also a fan for Cleveland too. I wish Lebron could win more for us. Mike brought six to Chicago. That’s incredible.

you've been retarded for years dude. how old are you?

[Goldrush25]

I do not think so any longer. LeBron did not win three in a row like Mike did. I don’t like how he left the Cavaliers twice because I am also a fan for Cleveland too. I wish Lebron could win more for us. Mike brought six to Chicago. That’s incredible.

It comes down to what you value. There are things that Lebron has done (and will do) that MJ never did.

MJ never won as an underdog. He always had the best, which is fine, but someone that wins as an underdog gets more credit for their win IMO. Lebron is playing better later into his career than MJ did. MJ's last years with the Wizards he was still good but nowhere near great and it will hurt him when we see Lebron continue his level of play.

Now a lot of Lebron's greatness is what I think he's likely to do in the future. I think he's likely to get at least one more championship, which would be 4 with three different teams. No other superstar has done that. He's likely to pass Kareem in points, and also likely to be the only NBA player to 40,000 points. Once that happens you'll see a huge groundswell for Lebron grow. I'm just getting out in front of it.

[86Celtics]

lebron needs one more. then he'll have a real case.

I don't think that it's a matter of accolades. At this point, he'd have to perform at a level not seen before to make any sort of headway. At his age and in the midst of a pandemic that has put a stop on everything the chances of him doing that are very slim.

[HoopsNY]

Nick Wright the expert. Do you have any idea how bitter and resentful you sound?

Nick Wright, the face of yellow journalism. It's terrible how people grew up with insightful writers, analysts, and commentators, and now have to listen to charlatans like Wright.

[red1]

I don't think that it's a matter of accolades. At this point, he'd have to perform at a level not seen before to make any sort of headway. At his age and in the midst of a pandemic that has put a stop on everything the chances of him doing that are very slim.

its definitely accolades. and more importantly narrative. people dont even look at what a player could do on the court when it comes these rankings.



Nick Wright, the face of yellow journalism. It's terrible how people grew up with insightful writers, analysts, and commentators, and now have to listen to charlatans like Wright.

nick wright is a moron. what is your point?

[HoopsNY]

Plus LeBron is an era where there aren't 12-14 guys averaging 10+ assists.

It wasn't that way in MJ's era, either. You typically had 3-4 players averaging 10+ assists per game. In 1988-89 when Jordan played PG for 24 games and averaged 8.0 assists for the year, there were 3 players who averaged 10+ I believe. Most recently you had similar just a few years ago. And that's with many PGs playing more iso ball than being pure point guards.

[HoopsNY]

The problem I have is that wherever MJ has something that maybe he didn't do as well as Lebron the argument's "we he could've done it better if he wanted to." From what I've observed, even Lebron fans that think he's the GOAT are by and large always willing to concede that Jordan was better at certain things. Can't get that from MJ fans, they give nothing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

We're talking about what actually happened, not what could've happened. Jordan was a talented playmaker. Hell he was great at most things, but Lebron has him when it comes to playmaking.

Voting MJ as most likely to get you the ball is the most egregious. Holy hell, one of the main criticisms against Lebron is that he's willing to pass too much.

That's because the debate isn't about who merely averaged more assists. After all, Deron Williams averaged more assists than Lebron and Rod Strickland. I watched all of them play. I don't think Deron Williams is a better passer than LeBron and Strickland.

Similarly, I don't think John Wall is a better passer or has a better basketball IQ with regards to passing than Steve Nash. Yet Wall averages more assists career-wise.

If you watched MJ play, you saw how smart of a passer he was, and much like Bird who averaged fewer assists, is touted has having greater or at least similar abilities.

[Goldrush25]

I don't think that it's a matter of accolades. At this point, he'd have to perform at a level not seen before to make any sort of headway. At his age and in the midst of a pandemic that has put a stop on everything the chances of him doing that are very slim.

He's already doing that. He's playing better at the age of 35 than anyone ever has, by a significant margin.

[Goldrush25]

That's because the debate isn't about who merely averaged more assists. After all, Deron Williams averaged more assists than Lebron and Rod Strickland. I watched all of them play. I don't think Deron Williams is a better passer than LeBron and Strickland.

Similarly, I don't think John Wall is a better passer or has a better basketball IQ with regards to passing than Steve Nash. Yet Wall averages more assists career-wise.

If you watched MJ play, you saw how smart of a passer he was, and much like Bird who averaged fewer assists, is touted has having greater or at least similar abilities.


I did watch MJ play. I believe he was a talented passer. But no, I don't think he was more talented at it than Lebron, and there's certainly no evidence that suggests that he was more willing to get others the ball.

MJ's case for GOAT is certainly strong enough without people giving him credit for things for which he doesn't deserve credit.

[Soundwave]

Yahoo.com has a poll with almost 120,000 replies, Jordan leads LeBron 88% to 12%.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ex-le-bron-james-teammate-channing-frye-calls-michael-jordan-just-a-scorer-in-embarrassing-take-002952625.html

The fact of the matter is the general public overwhelmingly does not buy the "LeBron is equal to or better than Jordan" kool-aid that about 10 people on this board are trying so desperately hard to sell.

[PWB15]

LeBron is a better passer, to be fair.

The debate is over

[Roundball_Rock]

Nick Wright is yellow journalism? Because he doesn't slob MJ like the rest of the media?

Why are MJ stans so insecure if the debate does not exist?

[dbugz]

LeQuit fans on desperate mode now :roll:

[Bronbron23]

Last gasp for old heads. Guarantee this will change in a few years. When Bron has every record in the book, plus 4 or 5 rings, he’ll definitely move pass MJ. Nostalgia will always keep some people from giving current guys a look.

nope they polled the youngstas also and he wasnt ahead as much as the main poll bit still up significantly. Most rational thinking people with 2 eyes see the difference between the 2 and recognize mj is better.

[SATAN]

ESPN is cancer.

[sdot_thadon]

It will hilarious to revisit these, "the debate is over!!!" takes in a few months.......

[Turbo Slayer]

It will hilarious to revisit these, "the debate is over!!!" takes in a few months....... Its unlikely LeBron will win another title. Dont be too optimistic especially with Kawhi in front of his path. Never forget 2014 Finals.

[Soundwave]

It will hilarious to revisit these, "the debate is over!!!" takes in a few months.......

This board is basically revolves around this debate so it can never end, I think honestly there will be a crisis here in like 3-4 years when LeBron is retired or done-zo.

[1987_Lakers]

The fact that MJ is ahead in the better passer poll should tell you all you need to know. That's why I don't take ESPN and most of their viewers seriously. People in general are sheep, they are easily influenced and incapable of critical thinking. That MJ documentary is fresh in people's minds, has the casuals brainwashed.


This is the best documentary I've ever seen in terms of how the people on top manipulate the masses, it shows people make choices on emotions, rather than logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

[Bronbron23]

ESPN is cancer.

Well thats fair but what network isnt?

[Vragrant]

It comes down to what you value. There are things that Lebron has done (and will do) that MJ never did.

MJ never won as an underdog. He always had the best, which is fine, but someone that wins as an underdog gets more credit for their win IMO. Lebron is playing better later into his career than MJ did. MJ's last years with the Wizards he was still good but nowhere near great and it will hurt him when we see Lebron continue his level of play.


That actually isn't true. In the Bulls/Cavs series, noted for the famous"The Shot" the Bulls were the sixth seed and the Cavs were the third seed. They were not expected towin. Also, in '98 the Bulls were not guaranteed to win that series. Many people favoured the Jazz as highlighted by Pippen,''Everyone is expecting the Jazz to walk away with this series. We're underdogs, no question.'' https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/03/sports/the-nba-finals-are-the-bulls-true-underdogs-or-just-playing-possum.html

Lebron though, unlike MJ, has lost as the favourite (eg. vs Mavs in 2011). Also, I don't get why MJ gets penalized for leading a dynasty team.Lebron for some strange reason gets handicapped in all time rankings against MJ for the strange reason that MJ was good enough to be the catalyst and leader on one of the greatest teams in NBA history. Lebron has played with Kyrie/Wade/Bosh/Love over the last decade so he's definately had the talent.

[Bronbron23]

The fact that MJ is ahead in the better passer poll should tell you all you need to know. That's why I don't take ESPN and most of their viewers seriously. People in general are sheep, they are easily influenced and incapable of critical thinking. That MJ documentary is fresh in people's minds, has the casuals brainwashed.


This is the best documentary I've ever seen in terms of how the people on top manipulate the masses, it shows people make choices on emotions, rather than logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

Dude the documentary being "fresh" in peoples minds works both ways and even more so for lebron. Mj hasnt played in 20 years. Its been bron thats been fresh in our minds for the last 17 years.

[1987_Lakers]

That actually isn't true. In the Bulls/Cavs series, noted for the famous"The Shot" the Bulls were the sixth seed and the Cavs were the third seed. They were not expected towin. Also, in '98 the Bulls were not guaranteed to win that series. Many people favoured the Jazz as highlighted by Pippen,''Everyone is expecting the Jazz to walk away with this series. We're underdogs, no question.'' https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/03/sports/the-nba-finals-are-the-bulls-true-underdogs-or-just-playing-possum.html

Lebron though as lost as the favourite (eg. vs Mavs in 2011). Also, I don't get why MJ gets penalized for leading a dynasty team. Makes no sense, he was the catalyst and leader, but somehow he Lebron gets handicapped in all time rankings against MJ for the strange reason that MJ was good enough to be the catalyst and leader on one of the greatest teams in NBA history. Lebron has played with Kyrie/Wade/Bosh/Love over the last decade so he's definately had the talent.

"I consider us the underdogs," said Michael Jordan.The Bulls underdogs? He's kidding, right? After winning five titles in seven years - every year since 1990 that Jordan didn't fool around with baseball - how can Chicago really feel it's not a favorite to win it all again?

But there they were on Tuesday, sandbagging like crazy. Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman all called themselves underdogs - without even cracking smiles.

Karl Malone doesn't believe it, though.

"I heard some interview with (Bulls reserve) Jud Buechler where he said that they were the underdog," said Malone. "Yeah, right. I don't buy any of that."

The reality is that both Jordan and Malone are right. Las Vegas oddsmakers have the Bulls the favorites to win the series, but the Jazz slight favorites to win in tonight's Game 1 at the Delta Center.
https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/3/19383629/neither-bulls-nor-jazz-care-to-be-favored

Vegas had the Bulls as favorites in 1998 vs the Jazz.

[knicksman]

Nick Wright is yellow journalism? Because he doesn't slob MJ like the rest of the media?

Why are MJ stans so insecure if the debate does not exist?

we all know that its you whos insecure dmavs coz kawhi(jordan clone) who has no MVPs yet is shitting on your boy Lebron. Proving once again that jordan types wins not lebrons.

[Bronbron23]

"I consider us the underdogs," said Michael Jordan.The Bulls underdogs? He's kidding, right? After winning five titles in seven years - every year since 1990 that Jordan didn't fool around with baseball - how can Chicago really feel it's not a favorite to win it all again?

But there they were on Tuesday, sandbagging like crazy. Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman all called themselves underdogs - without even cracking smiles.

Karl Malone doesn't believe it, though.

"I heard some interview with (Bulls reserve) Jud Buechler where he said that they were the underdog," said Malone. "Yeah, right. I don't buy any of that."

The reality is that both Jordan and Malone are right. Las Vegas oddsmakers have the Bulls the favorites to win the series, but the Jazz slight favorites to win in tonight's Game 1 at the Delta Center.
https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/3/19383629/neither-bulls-nor-jazz-care-to-be-favored

Vegas had the Bulls as favorites in 1998 vs the Jazz.

well that settles it. Vegas never gets anything wrong

[1987_Lakers]

Dude the documentary being "fresh" in peoples minds works both ways and even more so for lebron. Mj hasnt played in 20 years. Its been bron thats been fresh in our minds for the last 17 years.

I have MJ ahead of LeBron, but the fact that fans voted him as the better passer should tell you how much of a joke that poll is, the MJ documentary ended last night, people react on raw emotion, not the emotions they had 2 weeks ago. Just go back in 2018 when LeBron was having a historic postseason, many people and media came out and said LeBron had surpassed MJ, those people too reacted on raw emotion. Watch the documentary I linked.

[Roundball_Rock]

It will hilarious to revisit these, "the debate is over!!!" takes in a few months.......

They are delusional and it is partly because they are in a MJ circle jerk, which includes the media. So for the MJ Kool Aid drinkers they think the "documentary" was so powerful that it closes the case. Meanwhile to everybody else it was old information packaged into a puff piece. It didn't sway anyone, other than the short-term bounce MJ got for 5 weeks of fawning media coverage of him. That bounce won't last.


That actually isn't true. In the Bulls/Cavs series, noted for the famous"The Shot" the Bulls were the sixth seed and the Cavs were the third seed

That's the problem. The one good example of the Bulls winning as legitimate underdogs is a first round series. The Cavs won ECFs and finals as underdogs.

The Bulls had a choppy season that led to their 6th place finish. They started .500 and were 13-11 (7th) on Christmas when Pippen became a permanent starter. They then got on a roll and were 43-26 in late March. They nose dived to close the season, going 4-9 down the stretch. So they had an average start, terrible close but they were playing like a 56 win team for the middle part of the season (30-14 after a 13-12 start). The following season they kept it up all year and won 55 games.


Lebron though, unlike MJ, has lost as the favourite (eg. vs Mavs in 2011).

True.

[1987_Lakers]

well that settles it. Vegas never gets anything wrong

I was stating a fact, don't know why you are all triggered.

[Bronbron23]

I have MJ ahead of LeBron, but the fact that fans voted him as the better passer should tell you how much of a joke that poll is, the MJ documentary ended last night, people react on raw emotion, not the emotions they had 2 weeks ago. Just go back in 2018 when LeBron was having a historic postseason, many people and media came out and said LeBron had surpassed MJ, those people too reacted on raw emotion. Watch the documentary I linked.

Yeah for sure i dont disagree with that. It was the same with kobe when he was in his prime winning chips and dropping multiple 40 or 50 point games. There was alot of talk of kobe being better. Then kobe got injured and the retired and all that talk went away until he passed recently and he jumped back up a few notches. The same thing will happen to bron when he retires. After someone else will be dominanting and relevant and the lebron goat talk will fade.

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah for sure i dont disagree with that. It was the same with kobe when he was in his prime winning chips and dropping multiple 40 or 50 point games. There was alot of talk of kobe being better. Then kobe got injured and the retired and all that talk went away until he passed recently and he jumped back up a few notches. The same thing will happen to bron when he retires. After someone else will be dominanting and relevant and the lebron goat talk will fade.

Except Brons already been doing things at a decidedly higher level than Bean did.....and I'll ask what specifically did Kobe do to justify his Jordan conversation besides try to play like him? Apples to Oranges......

[Whoah10115]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever.

Stop whining. It's not new, and it's not close.

You know why? Cuz he's the best.

Peace.

[Bronbron23]

Except Brons already been doing things at a decidedly higher level than Bean did.....and I'll ask what specifically did Kobe do to justify his Jordan conversation besides try to play like him? Apples to Oranges......

Not sure what u mean by a higher level. They both won multiple chips as atg players. Its definitely apples to apples.

[Axe]

ESPN is cancer.
Shut the fvck up, you goddamned death eater.

[HoopsNY]

Nick Wright is yellow journalism? Because he doesn't slob MJ like the rest of the media?

Why are MJ stans so insecure if the debate does not exist?

Wright is yellow journalism for a number of reasons, not just his erroneous take on the MJ debate. Have you watched him spread misinformation and blatantly lie about different topics?

But I love how no one can oppose your right-wing views against MJ without being called a "stan." If Nick Wright is your beacon of analysis, then I don't know what to tell you buddy.

[nizroc]

Nick Wright is yellow journalism? Because he doesn't slob MJ like the rest of the media?

Why are MJ stans so insecure if the debate does not exist?


There you are! Using that tired old red herring of “MJ Stans will never get it.” But you endorsing Nick Wright is a step I didn’t think even you would take. Your man is a pathological liar and spastically disrespectful distortionist.

[Axe]

There you are! Using that tired old red herring of “MJ Stans will never get it.” But you endorsing Nick Wright is a step I didn’t think even you would take. Your man is a pathological liar and spastically disrespectful distortionist.
Ever realize why he kept using the word 'stan'? It's because he's actually some kind of nats irl. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Is Nick Wright a liar? If so, care to share the examples?

To be clear, saying Jordan is not GOAT is not a lie. That is an opinion. :lol

[Axe]

*yawn* It really is an eyesore to see the same ignorant, stubborn asshole that kept on appearing in the usual mj, pippen or any related threads just to rant about the same thing all over the time. That's surely desperate.

Like, do you ever give yourself a break? Is sleep or rest really non-existent to ya? Seriously, do you have to do this 24/7 on a non-stop daily basis? :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

Once LeBron retires I expect people to move on to the next big guy or however you say it. LeBron will fade away...and nobody will talk like LeBron is great 20 years from now. The new generations wont give a shit about LeBron or Mj or Kobe.

[Bronbron23]

Is Nick Wright a liar? If so, care to share the examples?

To be clear, saying Jordan is not GOAT is not a lie. That is an opinion. :lol

nick wright is terrible. He definitely lies. He said lebron is better defensively even though the eye test, stats and accolades dont back it up. He says hes faster even though theres no proof. Mj was clocked at a 4.35 and is obviously quicker when it comes to basketball related movements. Hes said lebron shot 53% against kawhi in the finals when in fact he shot under 40% when kawhi was actually on him. His efficiency for that series was above 50% because he was very efficient against the other spurs defenders.

Nick is always talking shit

[Roundball_Rock]

nick wright is terrible. He definitely lies. He said lebron is better defensively even though the eye test, stats and accolades dont back it up. He says hes faster even though theres no proof. Mj was clocked at a 4.35 and is obviously quicker when it comes to basketball related movements. Hes said lebron shot 53% against kawhi in the finals when in fact he shot under 40% when kawhi was actually on him. His efficiency for that series was above 50% because he was very efficient against the other spurs defenders.

1) Saying LeBron is better defensively is an opinion. A bad opinion but an opinion.
2) You said it yourself--there is no proof about who is or is not faster. Another opinion.
3) I've seen Wright talk about the 14' Finals. He quotes the overall stat line. It is misleading since he doesn't break it down by Kawhi and not Kawhi, but ultimately how much does that matter? We don't break down MJ by possessions where Hornacek guarded him versus Russell do we?

It sounds like people don't like his opinions because he cuts against the media grain of worshiping MJ. That isn't lying.

How about the media coverage of MJ? :D Nick and Sharpe are outliers but the entire rest of the media does with MJ what they do with LeBron. That was exposed in the "coverage" of the doc. These are MJ nut huggers, not journalists.

[nizroc]

1) Saying LeBron is better defensively is an opinion. A bad opinion but an opinion.
2) You said it yourself--there is no proof about who is or is not faster. Another opinion.
3) I've seen Wright talk about the 14' Finals. He quotes the overall stat line. It is misleading since he doesn't break it down by Kawhi and not Kawhi, but ultimately how much does that matter? We don't break down MJ by possessions where Hornacek guarded him versus Russell do we?

It sounds like people don't like his opinions because he cuts against the media grain of worshiping MJ. That isn't lying.

How about the media coverage of MJ? :D Nick and Sharpe are outliers but the entire rest of the media does with MJ what they do with LeBron. That was exposed in the "coverage" of the doc. These are MJ nut huggers, not journalists.

He gives out fake win totals of teams Jordan faced, he claimed James averages more steals than Jordan, he claims James is faster and jumps higher than Jordan, when the only recorded data suggests the opposite, he lied about boxscore plus minus. A slip of the tongue or a mistake is just fine, but not when you are aggressively using these false numbers to put somebody over somebody’s else. Your boy has a well documented track record of lying, and going to bat for him is really unbecoming.

[Bronbron23]

1) Saying LeBron is better defensively is an opinion. A bad opinion but an opinion.
2) You said it yourself--there is no proof about who is or is not faster. Another opinion.
3) I've seen Wright talk about the 14' Finals. He quotes the overall stat line. It is misleading since he doesn't break it down by Kawhi and not Kawhi, but ultimately how much does that matter? We don't break down MJ by possessions where Hornacek guarded him versus Russell do we?

It sounds like people don't like his opinions because he cuts against the media grain of worshiping MJ. That isn't lying.

How about the media coverage of MJ? :D Nick and Sharpe are outliers but the entire rest of the media does with MJ what they do with LeBron. That was exposed in the "coverage" of the doc. These are MJ nut huggers, not journalists.

He dosnt say it in a opinion kind of way its very matter of fact the way he says it so id call that a lie. At very least its very misleading.

I agree with your point on mj coverage but i dont like his ass kissers either. Stephen a is just as annoying. I dont not like nick wright because he likes lebron. I like shannon and he loves lebron. Shannos opinion is more opinionated and light harted. I dont like nick wright because hes slick and says shits thats not true to fit his agenda. He does it with everyone he likes. Hes just as bad with odb.

Nick also just seems like a little bitch. Its written all over him.

[Roundball_Rock]

...

No credibility. In the other thread you said Kerr shot 45% with MJ and 39% without MJ. In reality--as was pointed out in an earlier post that you quoted--Kerr shot 40% without Pippen and 50% with Pippen. Hence the 45% figure. for 98' You still credited MJ. So who are you to criticize Nick Wright?


He gives out fake win totals of teams Jordan faced, he claimed James averages more steals than Jordan, he claims James is faster and jumps higher than Jordan, when the only recorded data suggests the opposite, he lied about boxscore plus minus.

Does he? Do you have links?

The speed and jumping stuff is opinion. Sorry. If he is giving fake win totals and lying about steals that is a different story.

[nizroc]

No credibility. In the other thread you said Kerr shot 45% with MJ and 39% without MJ. In reality--as was pointed out in an earlier post that you quoted--Kerr shot 40% without Pippen and 50% with Pippen. Hence the 45% figure. for 98' You still credited MJ. So who are you to criticize Nick Wright?



Does he? Do you have links?

The speed and jumping stuff is opinion. Sorry. If he is giving fake win totals and lying about steals that is a different story.

https://youtu.be/n0-ChZ5oEng

@1:06 for the steals (and blocks if you want to talk regular season, but I’ll give him a pass)


https://youtu.be/fRdD5ufCJVA

@1:13 for the win total.

And not to be a stickler, but if you adamantly claim James is faster and jumps higher and tout it like its a fact, when the recorded data indicates the opposite, then you’re lying.

[nizroc]

He dosnt say it in a opinion kind of way its very matter of fact the way he says it so id call that a lie. At very least its very misleading.

I agree with your point on mj coverage but i dont like his ass kissers either. Stephen a is just as annoying. I dont not like nick wright because he likes lebron. I like shannon and he loves lebron. Shannos opinion is more opinionated and light harted. I dont like nick wright because hes slick and says shits thats not true to fit his agenda. He does it with everyone he likes. Hes just as bad with odb.

Nick also just seems like a little bitch. Its written all over him.


I agree with your contrast between Sharpe and Wright.

[Roundball_Rock]

https://youtu.be/n0-ChZ5oEng

@1:06 for the steals (and blocks if you want to talk regular season, but I’ll give him a pass)


https://youtu.be/fRdD5ufCJVA

@1:13 for the win total.

This is it? The Pistons were a 50 win team in 91', not 48. They were a 48 win team in 92'. He confused the two years, probably looked it up on his phone between segments. :oldlol: Is there a substantive difference between 50 and 48?

The steals thing is false, though.

We can do the same with any personality. Broussard said "MJ locked down the league" once he got a good team. If you are generous to MJ, you still have to count 95' even if you want to exclude 90' (the same roster that won in 91').

[nizroc]

This is it? The Pistons were a 50 win team in 91', not 48. They were a 48 win team in 92'. He confused the two years, probably looked it up on his phone between segments. :oldlol: Is there a substantive difference between 50 and 48?

The steals thing is false, though.

We can do the same with any personality. Broussard said "MJ locked down the league" once he got a good team. If you are generous to MJ, you still have to count 95' even if you want to exclude 90' (the same roster that won in 91').

False numbers are false numbers, and yes it is significant because he was using that number to denigrate the Pistons with the “they got old” myth.

[nizroc]

And here is Wright lying about boxscore plus minus.

https://youtu.be/IFOy6lcvdwo

@ 1:51


This is a pattern with this individual, and maybe one could write it off as just a slip of the tongue if he wasn’t touted as the stats and analytics guy that uses these numbers to advance his controversial claims.

[Vino24]

MJ stans are the new joe Montana stans “but 6 for 6”

[NabJam90]

Its pretty clear most people didnt read the question at all and just went for Jordan on pretty much everything.

the should add in a question like this next time.

Who is the taller player Lebron or Jordan

you would probably have Jordan win that one too

[Axe]

Its pretty clear most people didnt read the question at all and just went for Jordan on pretty much everything.

the should add in a question like this next time.

Who is the taller player Lebron or Jordan

you would probably have Jordan win that one too
Lmao what is this? Another dup in the making? :oldlol:

[NabJam90]

Lmao what is this? Another dup in the making? :oldlol:

better sneaker, better player, more clutch going to Jordan those are all fine. But better passer, trust to pass you the ball.

come on now

[SATAN]

Not to mention, most likely to throw a tantrum and punch own team member

[ImKobe]

MJ stans are the new joe Montana stans “but 6 for 6”

How is Lebron less popular than Jordan in his own era? I thought he was the "GOAT"? :lol


Once LeBron retires I expect people to move on to the next big guy or however you say it. LeBron will fade away...and nobody will talk like LeBron is great 20 years from now. The new generations wont give a shit about LeBron or Mj or Kobe.

MJ and Kobe are immortal. I agree, Lebron will fade away rather quickly like Jerry West did. MJ is still the most loved/respected NBA player and it's been almost 22 years since the Bulls era. He's just a more entertaining player and his story is much more riveting than Lebron's. Lebron is this boring family guy who won a couple titles and put up great stats and lost twice as many Finals as he won, but his story isn't as memorable as Jordan's.

[SATAN]

MJ and Kobe are immortal.

Most people in the world couldn't give a **** about them tbf


his story is much more riveting than Lebron's. Lebron is this boring family guy who won a couple titles and put up great stats and lost twice as many Finals as he won, but his story isn't as memorable as Jordan's.

Can't agree here. LeBron doesn't ram his "story" down people's throats like MJ did all throughout is career with the stupid propaganda videos that we all loved as kids. Bron's "story" is extremely interesting and still going. From upbringing, to projections, to difference in fan perception due to technology and platforms, being the villain and good guy to whoever always, to people hoping his career just fades away with the aid of a global pandemic because they are scared of their unholy lord MJ slipping in their own brains ect ect ect.

Why talk trash about someone being a family man? The guy is seen as a good role model to many. Many from a similar upbringing. Meanwhile, Jordan got pissed off at his own son for wearing shoes that weren't Nike affiliated. Pathetic. The Jordan story is quite boring and petty in comparison, but don't let him tell you otherwise.

[ImKobe]

Most people in the world couldn't give a **** about them tbf



Can't agree here. LeBron doesn't ram his "story" down people's throats like MJ did all throughout is career with the stupid propaganda videos that we all loved as kids. Bron's "story" is extremely interesting and still going. From upbringing, to projections, to difference in fan perception due to technology and platforms, being the villain and good guy to whoever always, to people hoping his career just fades away with the aid of a global pandemic because they are scared of their unholy lord MJ slipping in their own brains ect ect ect.

Why talk trash about someone being a family man? The guy is seen as a good role model to many. Many from a similar upbringing. Meanwhile, Jordan got pissed off at his own son for wearing shoes that weren't Nike affiliated. Pathetic. The Jordan story is quite boring and petty in comparison, but don't let him tell you otherwise.

I'm talking in a sports' context here. Jordan and Kobe's NBA stories are just more memorable than Lebron's, which is why they usually are more popular among people born before 2000.

And what do you mean that Lebron doesn't ram his story down people's throats? He's been posting on social media for a decade and has constantly brought up his 3 titles over the past few years, he puts himself out there as much as anyone.

Lebron's image is just too clean in comparison to MJ/Kobe. The only controversy with him is that he colluded with other NBA players to be able to win a championship, but is his story really that interesting? He did make it out of the projects with his moms, but could you make a more exciting 10-episode series on Lebron's career than MJ's or Kobe's? I'd be mildly interested if he finally got busted for PEDs and we had a docuseries on that.

[Axe]

Most people in the world couldn't give a **** about them tbf



Can't agree here. LeBron doesn't ram his "story" down people's throats like MJ did all throughout is career with the stupid propaganda videos that we all loved as kids. Bron's "story" is extremely interesting and still going. From upbringing, to projections, to difference in fan perception due to technology and platforms, being the villain and good guy to whoever always, to people hoping his career just fades away with the aid of a global pandemic because they are scared of their unholy lord MJ slipping in their own brains ect ect ect.

Why talk trash about someone being a family man? The guy is seen as a good role model to many. Many from a similar upbringing. Meanwhile, Jordan got pissed off at his own son for wearing shoes that weren't Nike affiliated. Pathetic. The Jordan story is quite boring and petty in comparison, but don't let him tell you otherwise.
Don't you think is pretty ironic to hear from you? Especially when you consider yourself as "older" than most posters in this board.

[Roundball_Rock]

Its pretty clear most people didnt read the question at all and just went for Jordan on pretty much everything.

the should add in a question like this next time.

Who is the taller player Lebron or Jordan

you would probably have Jordan win that one too

They need to do that. Something that is an objective fact and the respondents will still say Jordan. :lol


How is Lebron less popular than Jordan in his own era?

Have you been alive for the past 5 weeks? That is how. The media "coverage" of him is propaganda and dick sucking, not journalism.

[ImKobe]

They need to do that. Something that is an objective fact and the respondents will still say Jordan. :lol



Have you been alive for the past 5 weeks? That is how. The media "coverage" of him is propaganda and dick sucking, not journalism.

I'm not buying that. People also voted 60% for Kobe over Lebron in a 2017 poll. Jordan's been the "GOAT" for over 20 years. Lebron had some hype post-2016 Finals, but that was mostly by TV "analysts" and anti-Jordan people like Zeke.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe was always more popular than LeBron. These are evidence of popularity contests, not GOAT contests.

The coverage speaks for itself. DR posted a million interviews and other media hits "covering" Jordan. They worship MJ. Meanwhile, they turn into journalists with every other person named in the "doc" but with MJ it is 4 segments a show on how awesome he was.

What do you expect? If the regular news media ran segments 24/7 telling you Chester Arthur was the towering figure of 1800's America the majority would take that view as well.

[HoopsNY]

And here is Wright lying about boxscore plus minus.

https://youtu.be/IFOy6lcvdwo

@ 1:51


This is a pattern with this individual, and maybe one could write it off as just a slip of the tongue if he wasn’t touted as the stats and analytics guy that uses these numbers to advance his controversial claims.

Good stuff, and this is just some of it, really. There's all the nonsense he says about Kawhi, too.

[dazzer87]

How embarrassing.....................How the fvk do you get killed in all categories............:facepalm

[ImKobe]

Kobe was always more popular than LeBron. These are evidence of popularity contests, not GOAT contests.

The coverage speaks for itself. DR posted a million interviews and other media hits "covering" Jordan. They worship MJ. Meanwhile, they turn into journalists with every other person named in the "doc" but with MJ it is 4 segments a show on how awesome he was.

What do you expect? If the regular news media ran segments 24/7 telling you Chester Arthur was the towering figure of 1800's America the majority would take that view as well.

They brought up all the negatives as well, what do you mean?

[Bronbron23]

Its pretty clear most people didnt read the question at all and just went for Jordan on pretty much everything.

the should add in a question like this next time.

Who is the taller player Lebron or Jordan

you would probably have Jordan win that one too

Not really. I disagree that mj is a better passer but people saying otherwise do have a point. Lebron only gets an assist and a half more a game as basically a point gaurd that dominates the ball. Mj was a 2 gaurd in the triangle If mj played a similar style hed definitely have as many assists. In the one year he played somewhat of a similar style he averaged 8 assists a game.

To me they're both great passers and lebron is more of a willing passer and has the stats so i give him nod.

[Bronbron23]

I agree with your contrast between Sharpe and Wright.

Yeah sharp is way more tolerable plus hes actually kind of funny. Nick is just an annoying little bish.

[Roundball_Rock]

They brought up all the negatives as well, what do you mean?

Show me a negative segment on a sports show. When they "brought up the negatives" it was to talk about how great those "negatives" were. That "coverage" is extremely biased and extremely favorable. No other public figure gets this coverage.

[Elosha]

So you post a poll but public opinion doesn't matter?

I am not surprised MJ won the poll but the margins can't be taken seriously given the context of timing and the entity that commissioned the poll.

The real question isn't where MJ stands versus LeBron in 2020. MJ obviously has a large edge today. The question is where they stand in 2035, 2040, 2050 etc. LeBron's career is not over. We have to see what his final record looks like. Moreover, Jordan benefits from media bias in favor of him (which the doc "coverage" exposed) from people who grew up watching MJ as kids or early in adulthood (people like Bayless). Eventually the LeBron generation will take over those media positions. What happens when MJ is covered without non-stop positive spin on the ball?

Kareem can't be ignored either for the long term. When MJ, LeBron lose the benefits of recency bias Kareem will look better against them.

You do realize, of course, that LeBron's legacy may well take a hit in the next few years rather than being augmented? There's no guarantee that he will win more championships, his per game numbers, particularly scoring, will decline (scoring already has, although he's still very good), and he may not even be the best player on his own team if/when they do win a championship. I for one, think they would have lost to both the Clippers and the Bucks this year. Time is not on LeBron's side here as far as GOAT status. He's already extremely sloppy on defense, a telltale sign of an older player, which is thankfully covered up by Davis and others. But that would have a huge chance of exposure in the playoffs. Unless relatively meaningless longevity metrics are your thing (meaningless only in the sense that they cannot be the deciding factor for GOAT when both players have incredible overall career totals, but MJ has far superior winning success and overall better per game stats), Lebron has little chance of ever surpassing Jordan. He simply doesn't have the "IT" factor, the huge moments, or the overall dominance of Jordan. You'd be wise to remember that.

Also, with all due respect to Kareem, he's not going to surpass Jordan. It's weird you'd even think that, when relatively few have ever put Kareem over Jordan for many, many years. He's likely number 2, with LBJ somewhere b/t 3-5, but Kareem never mustered much GOAT championship success without Magic, who was often the best player in those years. Longevity alone isn't going to cut it against MJ's superior playoff dominance and success.

[Roundball_Rock]

You do realize, of course, that LeBron's legacy may well take a hit in the next few years rather than being augmented?

It is possible. You need around 20 years to see how a person is historical judged. You need some perspective.


Unless relatively meaningless longevity metrics are your thing

Longevity is always a factor in greatness in sports. Only with Jordan do we hear it doesn't matter--never in any other conversation.


Also, with all due respect to Kareem, he's not going to surpass Jordan

You noted LeBron's historical judgment may change. The same applies to Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Russell. Kareem has been quietly gaining ground. Others like Russell have slid backwards but things can change.

Your post exposes the big flaw in the case for Jordan: it relies heavily on team success. What happens if people learn the context behind that team success? Or if people stop valuing team success for comparing individuals? Oscar had 1 ring, as a sidekick, and was considered a GOAT candidate into the 80's.

[RRR3]

LeBron has been good on defense this year.

[ImKobe]

Show me a negative segment on a sports show. When they "brought up the negatives" it was to talk about how great those "negatives" were. That "coverage" is extremely biased and extremely favorable. No other public figure gets this coverage.

They brought up his gambling, him being an asshole to his teammates/GM, they even addressed the allegations that Stern made him retire. MJ could have left all of that out if he wanted to.

[Elosha]

It is possible. You need around 20 years to see how a person is historical judged. You need some perspective.



Longevity is always a factor in greatness in sports. Only with Jordan do we hear it doesn't matter--never in any other conversation.



You noted LeBron's historical judgment may change. The same applies to Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Russell. Kareem has been quietly gaining ground. Others like Russell have slid backwards but things can change.

Your post exposes the big flaw in the case for Jordan: it relies heavily on team success. What happens if people learn the context behind that team success? Or if people stop valuing team success for comparing individuals? Oscar had 1 ring, as a sidekick, and was considered a GOAT candidate into the 80's.

Nope, you're completely misinterpreting what I said. It's Jordan's (1) greater overall ability and stats, (2) significantly better playoff performances and stats, and (3) bigger moments, better rising to the occasion, that are the overall reason he's GOAT over Kareem and Lebron. He also happens to be a better defensive player than LeBron, significantly better at raising a teams window and winning percentage, and is aesthetically a more enjoyable and more skilled player to watch (although LeBron is truly an ATG and also a wonder to behold). Kareem is great, but the idea that somehow he's going to burst onto the GOAT number 1 spot after all these years is farfetched.

[RRR3]

How the hell does something as subjective as who’s more “aesthetically pleasing” to watch put a goddamn orange sphere into a hoop determine who’s better.

[Elosha]

How the hell does something as subjective as who’s more “aesthetically pleasing” to watch put a goddamn orange sphere into a hoop determine who’s better.

Assume you're talking to me. That's certainly nowhere close to the most important factor, as I mentioned. But there's nothing wrong with taking a player's watchability, magnetism, and overall fluidity into account. And it partially explains some levels of skill that Jordan has mastered better than LeBron, which makes his game more nuanced and more entertaining. So there's a substantive aspect to it. But it's not the primary determining factor by any means.

[RogueBorg]

Assume you're talking to me. That's certainly nowhere close to the most important factor, as I mentioned. But there's nothing wrong with taking a player's watchability, magnetism, and overall fluidity into account. And it partially explains some levels of skill that Jordan has mastered better than LeBron, which makes his game more nuanced and more entertaining. So there's a substantive aspect to it. But it's not the primary determining factor by any means.

It's sometimes called "The Eye Test."

[Nowoco]

I see the LeBron stans meltdown is complete :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

They brought up his gambling, him being an asshole to his teammates/GM, they even addressed the allegations that Stern made him retire. MJ could have left all of that out if he wanted to.

I was referring to the endless stream of sports talk show segments and podcast segments on the documentary.

Him being a jerk was universally praised in the media coverage. The gambling was a sideshow so not relevant to his job. The Stern conspiracy theory was brought up to be shot down.


It's Jordan's (1) greater overall ability and stats, (2) significantly better playoff performances and stats, and (3) bigger moments, better rising to the occasion, that are the overall reason he's GOAT over Kareem and Lebron.

Those are a bunch of opinions.

On paper, Jordan does not have the best stats. That is pretty clear. He was dominant in one category and Wilt exceeded him in prime/peak scoring and Kareem was on par with him.

Jordan does not have the most winning or the best longevity either.

"Bigger moments." That is because we see his first round game winner on TV all the time, even 31 years later. Kareem made a sky hook to force a Game 7 in the NBA finals (over a HOF player Dave Cowens, not Craig Ehlo). When is that ever aired? :oldlol:


He also happens to be a better defensive player than LeBron

LeBron yes but not Russell, Wilt, Kareem. A dominant defensive center is going to have more impact than a dominant defensive SG.


significantly better at raising a teams window and winning percentage

That is very questionable. Jordan's teams only gradually improved, implying that was the function of roster and other (i.e., coaching) improvements. LeBron, Kareem had greater, more immediate impacts on their teams. Especially LeBron, who is the GOAT floor raiser. His problem is the ceilings of his teams.


is aesthetically a more enjoyable

This is a fancy way of saying "I like him better."


Kareem is great, but the idea that somehow he's going to burst onto the GOAT number 1 spot after all these years is farfetched.

He is the toughest rival for MJ. That is why you never hear a real case for MJ>KAJ. If he gets a fair hearing in the media in the future he can gain traction with people not emotionally attached to MJ or LeBron.


How the hell does something as subjective as who’s more “aesthetically pleasing” to watch put a goddamn orange sphere into a hoop determine who’s better.


But there's nothing wrong with taking a player's watchability, magnetism, and overall fluidity into account.

Having a crush on MJ makes him GOAT? :confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

Assume you're talking to me. That's certainly nowhere close to the most important factor, as I mentioned. But there's nothing wrong with taking a player's watchability, magnetism, and overall fluidity into account. And it partially explains some levels of skill that Jordan has mastered better than LeBron, which makes his game more nuanced and more entertaining. So there's a substantive aspect to it. But it's not the primary determining factor by any means.

Shouldn't matter at all imo. Jahlil Okafor is more fluid and skilled than Dwight Howard but who cares?

[RRR3]

MJ scored at a higher rate than Wilt tbh. Especially in the playoffs. Wilt’s totals are inflated due to him playing unheard of minutes and at a crazy pace.

[ImKobe]

I see the LeBron stans meltdown is complete :lol

There's nothing they can do.

They lost when 2011 happened.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXyQZRpX0AEwJKm?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Elosha]

Shouldn't matter at all imo. Jahlil Okafor is more fluid and skilled than Dwight Howard but who cares?

It matters when you're talking about GOAT candidates, which neither of the two players you mentioned is close to. But smoothness and nuances to one's game is indicative of a higher skillset and a more dangerous offensive player, which born out in Jordan's favor in both the eye test, big games, clutch moments, and many other ways.

[dazzer87]

There's nothing they can do.

They lost when 2011 happened.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXyQZRpX0AEwJKm?format=jpg&name=900x900

Wade like this mofo...going to cost me a ring...........
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/923112/heat.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ scored at a higher rate than Wilt tbh. Especially in the playoffs. Wilt’s totals are inflated due to him playing unheard of minutes and at a crazy pace.

You also could also say MJ's #'s are inflated playing against Craig Ehlo and Byron Russell while Wilt had to keep facing the GOAT defensive player Russell (Bill, not Byron :lol ) and other HOF players.

Wilt was a scorer only his first 5-6 years. After that he became a facilitator. Then in LA he played the Bill Russell role. So he was excellent in three different roles. That deflates his stats but accentuates his greatness. Jordan operated in the same role his entire career, except for a 20-25 game stretch that we hear about to this day. LeBron became a PG in his 17th season and led the league in assists in that role.

Pace is a legit point but when Wilt was scoring the next closest guy was at 38 PPG in the same era. That is a 12 PPG difference. When Jordan scored 37 King scored 33 just two years prior. When Kobe scored 35 Iverson was at 33 and LeBron 31 in the same year. Even with Harden scoring 36 we saw KD score 32 in the same era.

King scored 89% of what MJ did
Iverson scored 94% of what Kobe did
Durant scored 89% of what Harden did
Baylor scored 76% of what Wilt did

There is a clear difference.

[Elosha]

I was referring to the endless stream of sports talk show segments and podcast segments on the documentary.

Him being a jerk was universally praised in the media coverage. The gambling was a sideshow so not relevant to his job. The Stern conspiracy theory was brought up to be shot down.



Those are a bunch of opinions.

On paper, Jordan does not have the best stats. That is pretty clear. He was dominant in one category and Wilt exceeded him in prime/peak scoring and Kareem was on par with him.

Jordan does not have the most winning or the best longevity either.

"Bigger moments." That is because we see his first round game winner on TV all the time, even 31 years later. Kareem made a sky hook to force a Game 7 in the NBA finals (over a HOF player Dave Cowens, not Craig Ehlo). When is that ever aired? :oldlol:



LeBron yes but not Russell, Wilt, Kareem. A dominant defensive center is going to have more impact than a dominant defensive SG.



That is very questionable. Jordan's teams only gradually improved, implying that was the function of roster and other (i.e., coaching) improvements. LeBron, Kareem had greater, more immediate impacts on their teams. Especially LeBron, who is the GOAT floor raiser. His problem is the ceilings of his teams.



This is a fancy way of saying "I like him better."



He is the toughest rival for MJ. That is why you never hear a real case for MJ>KAJ. If he gets a fair hearing in the media in the future he can gain traction with people not emotionally attached to MJ or LeBron.





Having a crush on MJ makes him GOAT? :confusedshrug:

Look I know your primary purpose on these threads is to criticize Jordan and be a contrarian. That's fine. You have the right to your opinion, but not your facts. You're not really going to change anyone's minds who has seen MJ and LeBron and Kareem play. The majority vote for Jordan because he presents the best overall GOAT package, no matter how you spin it.


For instance, who would possibly argue that LeBron has better footwork than Jordan, or better fluidity in the air, or ability to adjust his shot on the fly, change of direction, or mid range jumper, or post up moves? LeBron is decent or good at some of those areas but he can't perform nearly as well as MJ. That aesthetic quality for Jordan actually translates into a more dangerous, unpredictable, and undefendable player, whereas LBJ's style and skillset, and team play is more predictable and easy to stop.

As for KAJ, I have him at number 2, as do most people. If you have him as 1, that's fine. But there's no denying that KAJ languished with little success in the 70's and only succeeded greatly when Magic joined. He also benefited from a stacked Laker's team in an weak WC in the 80's. And he clearly wasn't the best player for at least 3 of his final rings, although he was still an integral part of the Lakers. KAJ was awesome and deserves all of his accolades. But there are just enough asterisks to his career, as well as decidedly less iconic moments than Jordan (you cite one playoff gw for KAJ, but Jordan has 6+ playoff gw's or shots to tie at the buzzer, most rarely mentioned), that he's highly unlikely to be considered number 1.

[Elosha]

As to stats, I was primarily talking about Jordan having better and certainly more impactful stats than LeBron. He does, so you can call it an "opinion" all you want. The results speak for themselves. As to KAJ and Wilt, I've already addressed KAJ. I respect Wilt, but honestly Shaq was a better player in his prime. If you take an honest look at the skill level of the 60's -- it's clear Wilt was benefiting greatly from his fast paced, poor shooting, and rather nascent skills era. And his overall playoff numbers fell off big time in the playoffs, while they were still respectable. But not a real GOAT candidate, sorry. ATG, top 10 sure.

As to raising a team's level, I was actually talking about ceiling, not floor level. No one should be GOAT for making a mediocre team a good team. Jordan's 5 highest win championship teams are 72, 69, 67, and 62, and 61. Only in 93 did they go below 60 wins. The Bulls were a good team without him, with him they were among the best teams of all time. LeBron can't come close to that. Wilt, with the exception of his 69 win Lakers, can't come close to that (and it should be noted that team could not even repeat as champs). KAJ has a slightly better case in the 80's, but he did nothing with the Bucks, and Magic was at least equal in raising the Laker's ceiling as KAJ was.

[Leviathon1121]

Watching Roundball blame the documentary for this is comical. Jordan won every poll before the documentary by landslide numbers, but sure, it’s recency bias for a player who retired nearly twenty years ago! :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

...

Ok. I am going to de-activate my account. Why have a forum when the "truth" is known from the Jordan Bible?

GTFO. You guys are increasingly acting like a cult.


who would possibly argue that LeBron has better footwork than Jordan, or better fluidity in the air, or ability to adjust his shot on the fly, change of direction, or mid range jumper, or post up moves?

No one. What the Jordan Bible doesn't tell you is people look at different things when weighing greatness. For instance you seem to value "aesthetics." 90% of fans don't care about that.


As for KAJ, I have him at number 2, as do most people

So he can get to #2...but he has no case for #1? That is a media myth that Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else.


there's no denying that KAJ languished with little success in the 70's and only succeeded greatly when Magic joined

He also benefited from a stacked Laker's team in an weak WC

The irony. :lol


As to stats, I was primarily talking about Jordan having better and certainly more impactful stats than LeBron. He does, so you can call it an "opinion" all you want. The results speak for themselves. As to KAJ and Wilt, I've already addressed KAJ

You are shifting criteria based on what is convenient vis-a-vis a particular player.

Don't forget how winning is all-important--except when Russell is involved.


t's clear Wilt was benefiting greatly from his fast paced, poor shooting, and rather nascent skills era

Ironically this is basically what a lot of LeBron fans say to argue LeBron>MJ.


, I was actually talking about ceiling, not floor level. No one should be GOAT for making a mediocre team a good team

That is your criteria. Some people would credit LeBron for making the finals in 2007 or KAJ lifting a 29 win team to 56 wins. Jordan did nothing like either.


but he did nothing with the Bucks

The 71' Bucks are an all-time great team. Of course Kareem had 1 all-NBA player on his team from 1970-1981 (he was 34 by 82' and 35 by the 82' playoffs)--1971...


and Magic was at least equal in raising the Laker's ceiling as KAJ was.

Bulls without Jordan, with Pippen in 94': 58 win pace, up from 57 wins in 93'
Bulls with Jordan, without Pippen in 98': 56 win pace, down from 69 wins in 97' and a 67 win pace with Pippen

How about the Heat and Cavs without LeBron?

[FKAri]

It matters when you're talking about GOAT candidates, which neither of the two players you mentioned is close to. But smoothness and nuances to one's game is indicative of a higher skillset and a more dangerous offensive player, which born out in Jordan's favor in both the eye test, big games, clutch moments, and many other ways.

As an entertainer sure but it says nothing about basketball ability. It doesn't have to look pretty.

[ImKobe]

Wade like this mofo...going to cost me a ring...........
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/923112/heat.gif

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXtLr5sWAAAW_rP?format=jpg&name=medium

[Soundwave]

Watching Roundball blame the documentary for this is comical. Jordan won every poll before the documentary by landslide numbers, but sure, it’s recency bias for a player who retired nearly twenty years ago! :oldlol:

I don't think he even believes it himself deep down.

The only people that don't realize Jordan is considered GOAT overwhelmingly by the public, players, and media are like 12 year olds that live in a bubble arguing with kids on their street and have little/no concept of anything existing pre-2010.

[Axe]

Watching Roundball blame the documentary for this is comical. Jordan won every poll before the documentary by landslide numbers, but sure, it’s recency bias for a player who retired nearly twenty years ago! :oldlol:
Within just a month, how many times has the poor insecure fella flooded mj, pippen and other related threads with the same dull mudslings or copypasta crap? I think i lost track of it but my rough estimate would be at least more than a thousand posts. He just recycles his sorry behavior and shit to no end.

[Soundwave]

The funniest thing is LeBron and Kobe are in actuality probably the biggest Jordan-stans on the planet.

I'm a Jordan fan, but if I were in the NBA, would I wear no.23? Hell no, not out of respect or anything but why would I want to wear some other old player's number rather than establishing my own legacy? Would I agree to star in Space Jam 2? Why? The original is kind of a dumb movie to be honest why not do something on your own. Citing stuff like "Michael had to go through Detroit" in your own Nike commercials, admitting you cried when Jordan retired, drinking wine and giving feedback on Last Dance episodes (lol) every week, etc. etc. etc.

Even Kobe wearing 24 and 10 at the Olympics, c'mon bro everyone knows what that was about.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't think he even believes it himself deep down.


All I said is there is a polling bounce after you dominate the airwaves with propaganda. Political conventions last 3-4 days and consistently show a large bounce for the presidential candidate of the party holding the convention.

This was a 5 week festival with zero critical coverage or sniping from another side like presidential candidates get. Imagine a 5 week propaganda fest on Biden or Trump on every channel with zero critical coverage or scrutiny during that period. What would happen to that candidate's polling?

This is common sense. It is sad the MJ bubble is so detached from reality that this has to be explained.

Polling bounces are called "bounces" for a reason: they fade fairly quickly.

[Soundwave]

All I said is there is a polling bounce after you dominate the airwaves with propaganda. Political conventions last 3-4 days and consistently show a large bounce for the presidential candidate of the party holding the convention. This was a 5 week festival with zero critical coverage or sniping from another side like presidential candidates get.

This is common sense. It is sad the MJ bubble is so detached from reality that this has to be explained.

Polling bounces are called "bounces" for a reason: they fade fairly quickly.

You're detached from reality. The fact is the general public adores Jordan to a ridiculous level. It's not something invented.

The only athlete even close to as beloved as he is now this far removed from their career is Ali and Ali is more for his persona and social stances.

So do the players quite frankly, lol. LeBron James is a bigger Jordan-stan than anyone on this board. Were players tweeting weekly and livecasting on reaction to that Lakers-Celtics 30 For 30 series? Nope.

[Roundball_Rock]

The fact is the general public adores Jordan to a ridiculous level.

Who disputes that?

Again:

1) Jordan benefits in this poll because of the bounce he got from the past 5 weeks. In other words, if this poll was taken 3 months before or after the results would be different. Would it swing outcomes? No, but the margins for MJ would decrease.
2) Jordan gets glowing coverage and is presented as GOAT by the media. There isn't a 5 week 24/7 lovefest like we had recently but it exists. If you are a random fan on the street and get asked a question, Jordan is the default answer. This is why Jordan was winning big in categories where it is laughable, like being more willing to pass. If that coverage dissipates and Jordan is covered like every other retired athlete on the planet is, his "GOAT support" will decrease in public opinion.

ISH is not the real world. ISH are diehards but if you talk to normal basketball fans they will have trouble telling you exactly why they "think" Jordan is GOAT. It is a spoon fed opinion, not a carefully researched and reasoned historical evaluation. :roll:

The Church of Jordan will disagree but these things are obvious.

[Soundwave]

Who disputes that?

Again:

1) Jordan benefits in this poll because of the bounce he got from the past 5 weeks. In other words, if this poll was taken 3 months before or after the results would be different. Would it swing outcomes? No, but the margins for MJ would decrease.
2) Jordan gets glowing coverage and is presented as GOAT by the media. There isn't a 5 week 24/7 lovefest like we had recently but it exists. If you are a random fan on the street and get asked a question, Jordan is the default answer. This is why Jordan was winning big in categories where it is laughable, like being more willing to pass. If that coverage dissipates and Jordan is covered like every other retired athlete on the planet is, his "GOAT support" will decrease in public opinion.

ISH is not the real world. ISH are diehards but if you talk to normal basketball fans they will have trouble telling you exactly why they "think" Jordan is GOAT. It is a spoon fed opinion, not a carefully researched and reasoned historical evaluation. :roll:

The Church of Jordan will disagree but these things are obvious.

Jordan wins these polls all the time and has been winning them for decades now, the ESPN results are not out of line with multiple other public polls from years past.

Many players have had epic docuseries, the Lakers/Celtics had one, did that skyrocket Magic back into top 2/3 discussion? No it didn't.

The sports media don't make players popular, that's a delusional fantasy you have. The sports media simply plays to what the public wants.

Next you will claim no one actually wants Air Jordans it's just a conspiracy that every Foot Locker has a giant ass wall devoted to Jordan brand.

LeBron himself is a product of the Jordan bandwagon, why wear the number of a player and then try to model your career around them unless you are basically infatuated with them.

If I was a star player in the NBA even though I liked Jordan a lot, I would say f*ck no to doing a Space Jam 2 and wearing no.23 as a grown ass man.

If there is a "Church of Jordan" then LeBron and Kobe are basically the head pastors, lol.

[Axe]

Talk about being a holier-than-thou diehard jerk in ish while spreading your dislike about a certain atg in threads that talk about him.

Looks like discipline is never existent to you at all so I guess someone should give you the B already. If 3ball got his, then why shouldn't you?

[Roundball_Rock]

There are two separate issues here: 1) the bounce from the doc 2) the general, long term coverage MJ enjoys.


Many players have had epic docuseries, the Lakers/Celtics had one

:coleman:

Is this a joke? The Pistons' documentary did not spawn 3 or 4 segments on every sports show every day for 5 weeks. :lol Nor did they spawn associated podcasts dedicated to, or heavily covering, the doc. Another example is "instant reaction" coverage on ESPN and on podcasts. What is this, a presidential debate? :oldlol:

For anyone wondering this go to your Podcast platform and pick sports shows like First Take or Undisputed. Scroll their the topics they have covered in recent weeks. It is pretty clear.

It also isn't the saturation volume of coverage. It is the "type" of coverage, which is MJ worship and D sucking. He doesn't get real coverage like every other public figure.

[Soundwave]

There are two separate issues here: 1) the bounce from the doc 2) the general, long term coverage MJ enjoys.



:coleman:

Is this a joke? The Pistons' documentary did not spawn 3 or 4 segments on every sports show every day for 5 weeks. :lol Nor did they spawn associated podcasts dedicated to, or heavily covering, the doc. Another example is "instant reaction" coverage on ESPN and on podcasts. What is this, a presidential debate? :oldlol:

For anyone wondering this go to your Podcast platform and pick sports shows like First Take or Undisputed. Scroll their the topics they have covered in recent weeks. It is pretty clear.

It also isn't the saturation volume of coverage. It is the "type" of coverage, which is MJ worship and D sucking. He doesn't get real coverage like every other public figure.

The general public doesn't care that much about the Bad Boys Pistons, that would be why.

[RRR3]

Roundball goes overboard but when you have people literally ignoring facts and claiming MJ was somehow a better rebounder than LeBron because defensive rebounds don’t count you see his points.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is a self-perpetuating cycle between the media, MJ, and the companies MJ is associated with who advertise in the same media. The media can't quit the MJ drug even though it is 2020. At some point the cycle ends--you don't hear about Babe Ruth 24/7, do you--but who knows when that is.

It is naive to think all the people in the general public who have MJ as GOAT did it because of careful research and analysis of MJ and his peers. Most of them have MJ as GOAT because they hear he is GOAT 24/7. They probably couldn't tell you anything about any former player other than Jordan, Kobe. ISH isn't the general public. 99% of the population doesn't care about basketball that much.

[Soundwave]

Roundball goes overboard but when you have people literally ignoring facts and claiming MJ was somehow a better rebounder than LeBron because defensive rebounds don’t count you see his points.

I think it's well past overboard at this point, it's into full blown Delusional Land, lol.

He thinks this is all media driven ... what benefit does the media get from making the most popular player in the sport someone who's 20 years retired?

It would be far more profitable for the NBA, Nike, ESPN and ABC if they could "just invent" a new Jordan and enjoy the benefits of that massive TV revenue today, merchandising, etc. etc. if they could do that they would do that 100x over and kiss the 90s goodbye.

It would be far better to have a player that popular actually playing now so you would have a steady stream of weekly stories to report on.

The reason they can't is because the general public is the one that still adores Jordan and everything revolves around him in the basketball world. Everyone gets compared to him, everyone is chasing him.

You can't "invent" a Michael Jordan, these things just happen organically and spring from a genuine interest the public has.

[Soundwave]

It is a self-perpetuating cycle between the media, MJ, and the companies MJ is associated with who advertise in the same media. The media can't quit the MJ drug even though it is 2020. At some point the cycle ends--you don't hear about Babe Ruth 24/7, do you--but who knows when that is.

It is naive to think all the people in the general public who have MJ as GOAT did it because of careful research and analysis of MJ and his peers. Most of them have MJ as GOAT because they hear he is GOAT 24/7. They probably couldn't tell you anything about any former player other than Jordan, Kobe. ISH isn't the general public. 99% of the population doesn't care about basketball that much.

Yeah unfortunately for you Jordan wins polls even on ISH even with a militant padre of LeBron stans and the average poster here probably being 16-24.

[Roundball_Rock]

what benefit does the media get from making the most popular player in the sport someone who's 20 years retired?

You said it yourself twice in the last few minutes:


The fact is the general public adores Jordan to a ridiculous level.


The reason they can't is because the general public is the one that still adores Jordan and everything revolves around him in the basketball world

Jordan brings ratings, podcast downloads, and website clicks. Stop pretending to be naive. Jordan is the ultimate cash cow. The positive coverage keeps his popularity high and continues to bring ratings, clicks, and downloads. He is the only retired player the media covers daily...


Jordan wins polls even on ISH

And?

[Soundwave]

You said it yourself twice in the last few minutes:





Jordan brings ratings, podcast downloads, and website clicks. Stop pretending to be naive. Jordan is the ultimate cash cow. The positive coverage keeps his popularity high and continues to bring ratings, clicks, and downloads. He is the only retired player the media covers daily...



And?

Yes, Jordan is popular with the general public.

We know that. Polls tell us that over and over again. Walking into a Foot Locker tells you that.

The media has no ability to "create" stars. If they did they would have made 50 different players into Michael Jordan over the last 20 years.

Things like Michael Jordan happening to the NBA was an organic stroke of massive luck for the league, it's something that happened organically and can't be manufactured.

If they could not only would the NBA do it, every sports league would bend over backwards and kiss their own ass to have that formula.

[Roundball_Rock]

The media has no ability to "create" stars.

The media has the ability to create GOATs by simply declaring a player the GOAT. :oldlol: at acting like the sports media presents the cases of all the candidates in an even handed way. They present Jordan, LeBron, and then tell you why Jordan>LeBron. Kareem, Wilt, Russell don't get a hearing. The poll in the OP is a perfect example: only 2 options.

Is there any retired player who gets covered daily like MJ does? The doc took it to absurd levels but he was getting daily coverage on sports shows even before that.

[Soundwave]

The media has the ability to create GOATs by simply declaring a player the GOAT. :oldlol: at acting like the sports media presents the cases of all the candidates in an even handed way. They present Jordan, LeBron, and then tell you why Jordan>LeBron. Kareem, Wilt, Russell don't get a hearing. The poll in the OP is a perfect example: only 2 options.

Is there any retired player who gets covered daily like MJ does? The doc took it to absurd levels but he was getting daily coverage on sports shows even before that.

Bull sh*t.

It would be far more advantageous for the media to have a GOAT phenomenon with a current player.

If they could do that, the NBA, ESPN, Nike would make it happen.

They can't because the public won't buy into it. Jordan is their gold standard and there is no player who has eclipsed that standard, plain and simple for the general public.

If I'm an ESPN exec, I give zero sh*ts about what Michael Jordan did on NBC 20 years ago, it ain't buttering my bank account now.

He gets daily coverage because he demands it by virtue of the general public being basically in love with him still. F*ck your so-called best player now is in love with Michael Jordan. Is that also a conspiracy? ESPN forced LeBron to wear no.23 and star in Space Jam 2?

He himself perpetuates the same Jordan love fest ironically.

[Roundball_Rock]

If I'm an ESPN exec, I give zero sh*ts about what Michael Jordan did on NBC 20 years ago, it ain't buttering my bank account now.

Sure he is. Do you think they cover MJ more than active players for fun? They go with what brings ratings, clicks, and downloads. Jordan is the ultimate cash cow since he doesn't turn any segment off. LeBron, Brady, others do.


It would be far more advantageous for the media to have a GOAT phenomenon with a current player

It is more diffused and more critical now. I don't think the same could happen today. Look at Jordan. He got a few bad articles and started talking retirement. :lol No sports figure gets that type of coverage anymore.

LeBron is the closest thing to Jordan. The media got him to #2 but he also gets scrutinized heavily so he is presented as exactly that: #2--greater than everybody else (although this is never explained since the others just get erased) but clearly below the perfect and flawless Jordan.

Brady and Trout are other candidates for GOAT playing now. You never hear about Trout. Brady gets coverage rivaling LeBron, Jordan in terms of volume but he too gets some negativity. He would win a GOAT poll today but no media outlet would waste tens of thousands of dollars commissioning a poll to puff up Brady.

[RRR3]

Roundball is right in that the media has basically convinced many people it’s a fact that MJ is the GOAT and LeBron is the 2nd GOAT. While I personally agree, Kareem has a case to be higher on the GOAT list than either of them.

[Soundwave]

The truth is the general public

1.) Loves winners.

2.) Love someone who had to overcome things to become great (ie: no one wants to see a Rocky movie where Rocky just .... wins. He needs to overcome some huge obstacle and then triumph).

3.) For most sports people want their "GOAT" to be by some metric the "highest scorer". Wayne Gretzky has the most scoring titles in hockey for example, they want the same metric in basketball to be equivalent.


Jordan checks all three boxes, but even if you want to get into the whole "yeah b ... bu ... but basketball nerds know better!" angle, the fact is Jordan wins a majority of those types of discussions too. He does have by any objective measure an incredibly spectacular career.

There are not really many, if any, weaknesses in his actual game.

[Axe]

I guess jordan should have been cut short of being the goat because everytime he is brought up in the conversation, there are inevitable controversies.

[Roundball_Rock]

.) For most sports people want their "GOAT" to be by some metric the "highest scorer". Wayne Gretzky has the most scoring titles in hockey for example, they want the same metric in basketball to be equivalent

When is the last time Gretzky got a segment on ESPN, FS1, or NBCSN?


Jordan checks all three boxes

So does Brady, so does Gretzky. Trout lacks winning but baseball is different. People aren't ring counting in that sport.

A key difference between Brady, Trout, LeBron and Jordan is they didn't retire 22 years ago (since the Wizards years "don't count"). The fact we are even comparing him to those three in media coverage tells you something.

Does CNN run segments on Abe Lincoln every day?

[Soundwave]

Roundball is right in that the media has basically convinced many people it’s a fact that MJ is the GOAT and LeBron is the 2nd GOAT. While I personally agree, Kareem has a case to be higher on the GOAT list than either of them.

Apparently that case isn't good enough for him to be no.1 on your list.

The fact is actually in basketball there's really only one player that has 6 or more titles as the no.1 offensive option/"go to player" in the entire history of the sport.

If someone else is better they should be able to match/exceed that.

[Roundball_Rock]

The fact is actually in basketball there's really only one player that has 6 or more titles as the no.1 offensive option/"go to player" in the entire history of the sport.

In other words, cherry picked criteria to fit Jordan. Then we have people wondering why Jordan wins this type of poll in a landslide. :lol

How about this criteria? Being excellent for 17 years in a row, being dominant from day 1 to year 17 at age 39, winning more MVP's than anyone in sports history, etc. Who is the GOAT then?

Or this: winning more than anyone ever has in any sport. Who is GOAT then?

Or this: dominating more individually, scoring 100 when the next highest is 81. Dominating so much they had to change the rules. Dominating as a scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. Not as a one trick pony. Who is GOAT then?

[Soundwave]

When is the last time Gretzky got a segment on ESPN, FS1, or NBCSN?



So does Brady, so does Gretzky. Trout lacks winning but baseball is different. People aren't ring counting in that sport.

A key difference between Brady, Trout, LeBron and Jordan is they didn't retire 22 years ago (since the Wizards years "don't count"). The fact we are even comparing him to those three in media coverage tells you something.

Does CNN run segments on Abe Lincoln every day?

Jordan is basketball's closest equivalent to Gretzky.

That's not driven by media narrative, if I knew nothing about hockey I would want to see who has the most scoring titles and who has many championships to go with it.

That's just stuff the general public likes, the entertainment media doesn't "invent that".

It would be far more beneficial for them actually in terms of $$$ if LeBron was GOAT, because he's an active player who they can make money off in the here and now.

The problem is the general public won't buy into this.

[Soundwave]

In other words, cherry picked criteria to fit Jordan. Then we have people wondering why Jordan wins this type of poll in a landslide. :lol

How about this criteria? Being excellent for 17 years in a row, being dominant from day 1 to year 17, winning more MVP's than anyone in sports history, etc. Who is the GOAT then?

It's not cherry picked.

People like the guy who scores the most points/home runs/whatever is the leading statistical category in their sport.

Throwing a hissy fit over this and crying media conspiracy is just stupid. People are drawn to stuff like that, always have been, always will be.

Wayne Gretzky was a poor defensive player, no one really gives a crap because they like the goals and point totals. Michael Jordan honestly is more complete basketball player than Wayne Gretzky was a hockey player.

Anyone in hockey care though? Nope.

[RRR3]

Apparently that case isn't good enough for him to be no.1 on your list.

The fact is actually in basketball there's really only one player that has 6 or more titles as the no.1 offensive option/"go to player" in the entire history of the sport.

If someone else is better they should be able to match/exceed that.
I didn’t know I was the authority on who’s the GOAT, but I appreciate your admiration.

[Roundball_Rock]

The fact is actually in basketball there's really only one player that has 6 or more titles as the no.1 offensive option/"go to player" in the entire history of the sport.

Here is the all-time list using that criteria:

1) Jordan
2) Duncan
3) LeBron/Shaq/Bird
6) Durant/Hakeem

No one has Duncan #2 all-time. He doesn't even get mentioned in GOAT debates as he is at the bottom of the top 10.

[Soundwave]

Here is the all-time list using that criteria:

1) Jordan
2) Duncan
3) LeBron/Shaq/Bird
6) Durant/Hakeem

No one has Duncan #2 all-time. He doesn't even get mentioned in GOAT debates as he is at the bottom of the top 10.

Give Tim Duncan 8 or 9 scoring titles plus Finals MVP in all 5 championships, and you know Tim Duncan would basically be a lock for no.2.

LeBron would have no case against that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is basketball's closest equivalent to Gretzky.

Jordan is not Gretzky. Gretzy is like Wilt, Jordan, and Magic rolled into one. Jordan is not #1 in any of the criteria people usually use to evaluate an athlete's greatness.

You mentioned scoring. That is MJ's big category and he is #5 in that. Here is Gretzky:

Rank Player Years PTS

1. Wayne Gretzky* 1979-99 2857
2. Jaromir Jagr 1990-18 1921
3. Mark Messier* 1979-04 1887
4. Gordie Howe* 1946-80 1850
5. Ron Francis* 1981-04 1798
6. Marcel Dionne* 1971-89 1771
7. Steve Yzerman* 1983-06 1755
8. Mario Lemieux* 1984-06 1723
9. Joe Sakic* 1988-09 1641
10. Phil Esposito* 1963-81 159

No one is even close to him. He has almost 1,000 more points than #2. Meanwhile Jordan is 5th on the corresponding NBA list.


That's just stuff the general public likes, the entertainment media doesn't "invent that".

So where are the Gretzky segments every day on First Take, Undisputed, etc.?


People like the guy who scores the most points/home runs/whatever is the leading statistical category in their sport.

That's Kareem, at least right now.

[Soundwave]

Jordan is not Gretzky. Gretzy is like Wilt, Jordan, and Magic rolled into one. Jordan is not #1 in any of the criteria people usually use to evaluate an athlete's greatness.

You mentioned scoring. That is MJ's big category and he is #5 in that. Here is Gretzky:

Rank Player Years PTS

1. Wayne Gretzky* 1979-99 2857
2. Jaromir Jagr 1990-18 1921
3. Mark Messier* 1979-04 1887
4. Gordie Howe* 1946-80 1850
5. Ron Francis* 1981-04 1798
6. Marcel Dionne* 1971-89 1771
7. Steve Yzerman* 1983-06 1755
8. Mario Lemieux* 1984-06 1723
9. Joe Sakic* 1988-09 1641
10. Phil Esposito* 1963-81 159



So where are the Gretzky segments every day on First Take, Undisputed, etc.?



That's Kareem, at least right now.

Gretzky actually has fewer championships than Jordan, the same number of scoring titles, and unlike Pippen only getting the 2nd round, the Oilers actually full on won the Cup and then made the Conference Finals two years in a row after that without Gretzky (on top of beating Gretzky in the playoffs multiple times).

The Oilers were actually more of a legit all-star team, the basketball equivalent would be more like the Durant Warriors, even that might be underselling it.

Hockey would actually have to be popular in the US for Gretzky to be a regular segment, he is in Canada, he gets talked about all the time up north every playoff montage has the 80s Oilers front and center.

Jordan is no.1 in NBA for PPG, that is the criteria the NBA uses to crown a scoring champion, not total points.

[Roundball_Rock]

Give Tim Duncan 8 or 9 scoring titles plus Finals MVP in all 5 championships, and you know Tim Duncan would basically be a lock for no.2.

LeBron would have no case against that.

So now the criteria shifts. If it is about "rings as the man" Duncan should be #2 all-time.


d unlike Pippen only getting the 2nd round, the Oilers actually full on won the Cup and then made the Conference Finals two years in a row after that without Gretzky (on top of beating Gretzky in the playoffs).

Not the first year he left...they lost just like the Bulls did and Gretzky was traded, not retiring in the preseason.

Gretzky had success in LA too, Jordan did not in DC or outside of one system and one coach.

P.S. Jordan does not have the record for rings.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The idea that Jordan's status hangs on media/public perception is a joke. As if 6 FMVPs (record), 10 scoring titles (record) and NBA records in Regular-Season/Playoffs/Finals PPG don't do the talking.

Look @ RRR3 agreeing with this troll :oldlol: Identity politics is a real thing. Even on basketball forums.

[Soundwave]

So now the criteria shifts. If it is about "rings as the man" Duncan should be #2 all-time.



Not the first year he left...they lost just like the Bulls did and Gretzky was traded, not retiring in the preseason.

Gretzky had success in LA too, Jordan did not in DC.

P.S. Jordan does not have the record for rings.

Gretzky also got dunked on by the Oilers in the playoffs multiple times and watched them win a championship without him. Gretzky has 4 titles in 20 seasons of play, Jordan has 6 in 15.

Mark Messier the Oilers' "Pippen" as it were, actually won 2 Cups after Gretzky got traded, Gretzky won 0 in the final 12 years of his career.

Jordan doesn't have a record for rings, but he does for rings + actually being the go-to no.1 option on a title team.

That is not some small thing, it's a huge deal.

[RRR3]

I don’t agree with him that Kareem>MJ. I agreed with him that the media shapes perceptions of MJ and LBJ being the two best ever, in that order. And I have them 1 and 2 myself. Although I can see LeBron as low as 5th. Maaaaaaaaybe 6th if you’re able to convince me Russell was as impactful as some say.

[Soundwave]

I don’t agree with him that Kareem>MJ. I agreed with him that the media shapes perceptions of MJ and LBJ being the two best ever, in that order. And I have them 1 and 2 myself. Although I can see LeBron as low as 5th. Maaaaaaaaybe 6th if you’re able to convince me Russell was as impactful as some say.

The fact of the matter is Kareem didn't win enough in his prime, and won a big portion of his titles where he wasn't actually the best player on his own team anymore.

That is the real reason the general public doesn't consider him GOAT. It's not because the "media says so".

If the media had their way they'd just make a new GOAT every 5 years, it's better for business. If I work at ESPN/ABC, why should I care what some player 20 years ago did for NBC? How's that putting money in my pocket. Jordan is a stubborn f*ck on top of that, he doesn't grant interviews or talk much at all, sat on hours of footage for 20+ years.

If the media could pick someone it would be Magic, for starters the dude loves being around the media, lol.

[RRR3]

I guess my point is that most people don’t even question MJ being the GOAT. He is, in my opinion, the GOAT, but it isn’t true that you can’t make decent arguments for other players, which is what many people act like.

[Soundwave]

I guess my point is that most people don’t even question MJ being the GOAT. He is, in my opinion, the GOAT, but it isn’t true that you can’t make decent arguments for other players, which is what many people act like.

That's fair but saying it's some media invention is also BS. Jordan doesn't need any media whatsoever, people are fascinated by him because they are fascinated by greatness.

There is no NBA great that is less cooperative with the media than Jordan. Jordan and Bird in particular stiff arm the media big time, all the other guys are happy to yap it up.

Sports are also more than numbers, they are aspirational for people ... people know they can't be Michael Jordan in basketball, but they get inspired by trying to have that mindset in whatever they do in their life. That's what people are drawn to -- the mindset.

[knicksman]

In other words, cherry picked criteria to fit Jordan. Then we have people wondering why Jordan wins this type of poll in a landslide. :lol

How about this criteria? Being excellent for 17 years in a row, being dominant from day 1 to year 17 at age 39, winning more MVP's than anyone in sports history, etc. Who is the GOAT then?

Or this: winning more than anyone ever has in any sport. Who is GOAT then?

Or this: dominating more individually, scoring 100 when the next highest is 81. Dominating so much they had to change the rules. Dominating as a scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. Not as a one trick pony. Who is GOAT then?


theres only one criteria and thats whos the player youd pick no. 1 if your building a team. And thats jordan coz he will give you the most rings. But you cant go wrong with kareem either. Thats why they are the top 2. You just give it to jordan coz he won while clearly the no. 1 on the team whereas kareem won with magic who has better stats than him. Now russell has the most rings but would you take a risk building around him knowing that there are no players like him that has won whereas we have kobe having 5 rings playing the same style as jordan then kawhi.

And thats the reason why lebron isnt top 10 for us coz why would we build around a guy who needs superteams to win.

[Soundwave]

theres only one criteria and thats whos the player youd pick no. 1 if your building a team. And thats jordan coz he will give you the most rings. But you cant go wrong with kareem either. Thats why they are the top 2. You just give it to jordan coz he won while clearly the no. 1 on the team whereas kareem won magic who has better stats than him. Now russell has the most rings but would you take a risk building around him knowing that there are no players like him that has won whereas we have kobe having 5 rings playing the same style as jordan then kawhi.

The other thing with the Lakers is you sometimes had the supposed "third option" in James Worthy winning NBA Finals MVP to boot which muddies the water.

If Kareem was the clear cut no.1 player on all those Lakers teams, he would likely be far more talked about as GOAT. He won most of his titles past his prime and in a time period where Magic was arguably the face of the franchise.

As you said, with Jordan this isn't really an issue, he's the defacto best player every time for the full duration of the Bulls run.

[Roundball_Rock]

I guess my point is that most people don’t even question MJ being the GOAT. He is, in my opinion, the GOAT, but it isn’t true that you can’t make decent arguments for other players, which is what many people act like.

Exactly.

It is out of touch to think all these people sat down one day, carefully studying all the legends and concluded MJ is the GOAT. Jordan was spoon fed to them as GOAT. ISH isn't close to reflecting the rest of society.

Just ask non-ISH people why they have MJ as GOAT. They can't give you real reasons other than "6-0."

Soundwave's posts are revealing. He simply can't conceive of people having a criteria for GOAT, or different analysis of the same criterions, than other people. Gee, I wonder where he got that impression?


Jordan is no.1 in NBA for PPG, that is the criteria the NBA uses to crown a scoring champion

Who is #1 in HR per game? No one knows because no one cares. People remember Bonds and Aaron as the legit HR king.

This is another Jordan-specific construct.

[Soundwave]

Exactly.

It is out of touch to think all these people sat down one day, carefully studying all the legends and concluded MJ is the GOAT. Jordan was spoon fed to them as GOAT. ISH isn't close to reflecting the rest of society.

Just ask non-ISH people why they have MJ as GOAT. They can't give you real reasons other than "6-0."

Soundwave's posts are revealing. He simply can't conceive of people having a criteria for GOAT, or different analysis of the same criterions, than other people. Gee, I wonder where he got that impression?



Who is #1 in HR per game? No one knows because no one cares. People remember Bonds and Aaron as the legit HR king.

This is another Jordan-specific construct.

If you don't think Jordan is GOAT fine, like please do cartwheels down the street yelling it if it makes you feel better about yourself, but when you start sprouting nonsense like it's some media conspiracy, that's where it gets stupid.

Jordan doesn't even talk to the media, he's probably the least cooperative NBA great with the media. I don't think I've actually seen Jordan himself in a Nike commercial or Gatorade commercial since like 2003?

I remember like one brief Hanes ad campaign where he's on an airplane that has nothing to do with basketball and that's basically it for the last 20 years.

The media has no incentive to have a player 20 years gone who won't ever give them the time of day being the topic of discussion. He's the topic of discussion because people love his mindset.

It's like listening to someone drone on and on about how Leonardo DiCaprio is not actually a popular actor and it's just the media telling people to like him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan's own "doc" showed he was considered the GOAT after 3 rings and 3 MVP's. So all this resume stuff is BS after the fact because he has a better resume than LeBron.

How do you think LeBron has gotten to #2? All these basketball historians on the street concluded individually that he is #2?

Most people in the general public couldn't tell you details of stuff that is actually important (how many people can find Afghanistan on a map?) but we are supposed to believe people carefully studied and analyzed to get MJ #1 and LeBron #2 for a sport that isn't even the most popular sport in its home country?

One thing that is never discussed about Jordan is all has success came in basically the same situation. Same coach, same system, same team, even the same second superstar. Kareem, Wilt, LeBron in different situations. Wilt reinvented his game in 3 different ways and dominated as a scorer, passer, and defender/rebounder at different points in his career. Jordan couldn't have done what Wilt did.



The media has no incentive to have a player 20 years gone who won't ever give them the time of day being the topic of discussion.

So why are they covering him every day? :lol

[Soundwave]

Jordan's own "doc" showed he was considered the GOAT after 3 rings and 3 MVP's. So all this resume stuff is BS after the fact because he has a better resume than LeBron.

How do you think LeBron has gotten to #2? All these basketball historians on the street concluded individually that he is #2?

Most people in the general public couldn't tell you details of stuff that is actually important (how many people can find Afghanistan on a map?) but we are supposed to believe people carefully studied and analyzed to get MJ #1 and LeBron #2 for a sport that isn't even the most popular sport in its home country?

One thing that is never discussed about Jordan is all has success came in basically the same situation. Same coach, same system, same team, even the same second superstar. Kareem, Wilt, LeBron in different situations. Wilt reinvented his game in 3 different ways and dominated as a scorer, passer, and defender/rebounder at different points in his career. Jordan couldn't have done what Wilt did.



So why are they covering him every day? :lol

For your last point there either you are dense or just purposefully being stupid. They cover him because the PUBLIC wants to hear it. The same reason every media member on the red carpet of the Oscars wants to interview DiCaprio first or the best looking supermodel gets the most attention, that's who the public wants to see. They decide that, not the media. The media just gives them what they want.

Y'know you have to be really dense to think the general public actually doesn't like Michael Jordan a lot.

Jordan would not be considered GOAT today or it would be much muddier of a discussion if that 2nd 3-peat didn't happen.

So I guess what? You should be angry at the sports gods/fate/the universe too? Why did they let a baseball strike happen right when Jordan still had a window to come back to the NBA? Are they also complicit in the conspiracy?

Because of that now someone really probably needs to win 6 minimum, probably 7 definitively as the best player. That f*cked things up for everyone else the bar was a lot lower before.

And I mean not only win, but hit the freaking game winning shot in the clinching game in his last moments as a Bull? Really? If this was a movie, it wouldn't be believable.

[Roundball_Rock]

The cover him because he is a cash cow and easy because there is no journalism required (just plug in the greatest hits!), the same reason they cover Trump's rantings about hydroxychloroquine instead of real stories that require actual reporting and don't generate ratings and clicks.


Because of that now someone really probably needs to win 6 minimum, probably 7 definitively as the best player

That wasn't the position MJ fans took 10 years ago when Kobe was threatening to get to 6 or 7...

P.S. the record for rings is 11; Jordan is tied for 9th with Pippen, Kareem and a couple others. Jordan has no major record. Kareem has the most points, MVP's; Russell the most rings; Wilt the records for individual dominance.

[Soundwave]

The cover him because he is a cash cow and easy because there is no journalism required (just plug in the greatest hits!), the same reason they cover Trump's rantings about hydroxychloroquine instead of real stories that require actual reporting and don't generate ratings and clicks.



That wasn't the position MJ fans took 10 years ago when Kobe was threatening to get to 6 or 7...

P.S. the record for rings is 11; Jordan is tied for 9th with Pippen, Kareem and a couple others. Jordan has no major record. Kareem has the most points, MVP's; Russell the most rings; Wilt the records for individual dominance.

He's a cash cow because people love him.

The media can't "make" the public like someone, if they could do that they would make a new movie star every 4-5 years, a new sports superstar every 4-5 years. God knows boxing would've invented a new superstar 20 times over if they could but there hasn't been a great heavyweight in a long time that people care about. In sports least of all because you can't "fake" things in sports.

Truth is things the public take to is outside of the control of the media/content creators, you can't decide what is embraced by people, it happens organically and on its own. If it worked the way you try to protray every movie studio would pull an Avengers or Titanic or Avatar or Star Wars out of their ass every year and simply just spend $300 million on marketing to tell people they need to like it.

Jordan is no.1 for rings as the go to player.

The public doesn't give a crap about total rings for the reason you stated there, they know there's Robert Horry's of the world that have a lot of titles. That's not special.

They want to know who was the no.1 guy on the team that won all the titles. There is no NBA player that has more titles as the no.1 go to player, certainly not in the modern era.

That's what the public wants. If that upsets you or makes your want to throw a fit ... sorry I guess?

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is no.1 for rings as the go to player.

MVP's: 1) Kareem 6 2) Russell/Jordan 5 4) Wilt/LeBron 4

Russell won his against Wilt, not against Karl Malone.

[Soundwave]

MVP's: 1) Kareem 6 2) Russell/Jordan 5 4) Wilt/LeBron 4

Russell won his against Wilt, not against Karl Malone.

The problem is these things are pretty easy to pick apart.

Jordan has nearly as many regular season MVPs, but more Finals MVPs (far more) than Kareem on top of more rings as the go to player.

Russell beat Wilt because his team was better not because he was better than Wilt. Anyone on planet earth who seriously thinks Karl Malone was ever better than Michael Jordan.

The other thing this board doesn't really get is scoring titles are pretty important to the general public. They like scoring titles.

Again, you can kick, scream, cry about it being wrong all you want, I don't think that changes that. People look at who is the scoring champ, home run leader by season, Art Ross winner (NHL's scoring leader), etc.

Again that second 3-peat f*cked everything up, if that doesn't happen then it's an actual bigger discussion. Blame God or baseball or random fate I guess. It's their fault. If he could have just stayed in baseball for another 1-2 years that's all you needed. So close.

[Vino24]

The problem is these things are pretty easy to pick apart.

Jordan has nearly as many regular season MVPs, but more Finals MVPs (far more) than Kareem.

Russell beat Wilt because his team was better not because he was better than Wilt. Anyone on planet earth who seriously thinks Karl Malone was ever better than Michael Jordan.

The other thing this board doesn't really get is scoring titles are pretty important to the general public. They like scoring titles.

Again, you can kick, scream, cry about it being wrong all you want, I don't think that changes that. People look at who is the scoring champ, home run leader by season, etc.

Russell’s team would often win by a field goal or two. The fact is Wilt’s teams were very comparable

[juju151111]

MVP's: 1) Kareem 6 2) Russell/Jordan 5 4) Wilt/LeBron 4

Russell won his against Wilt, not against Karl Malone.

Huh what does this got to do with what he said?

[Soundwave]

Russell’s team would often win by a field goal or two. The fact is Wilt’s teams were very comparable

Even there, Bill Russell was sometimes the THIRD offensive option on his own team. The "public" wants the best player on the team to be the offensive focal point. They don't want to hear this sh*t about "well so and so got a lot of rebounds tho".

That's not "sexy" to the public.

Again you can get mad at me for saying that, but that's just how the general public sees things.

No one wants to hear that Wayne Gretzky was actually only 3rd on the Oilers in scoring when they were winning Cups. He needs to be the no.1 scorer. If that was a movie nobody wants to see that f**king movie, lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

Russell beat Wilt because his team was better.

The irony...


People look at who is the scoring champ, home run leader by season,

Who has the most HR titles? No one knows and no one cares. Everybody knows about Bonds, Aaron (the legit HR king), and Ruth.

[Roundball_Rock]

Huh what does this got to do with what he said?

Russell was "the man" as you guys like to say. BTW Juju, go to the Wade/Pippen thread. MJ stans are saying Miller>Pippen--what you and Rogue said MJ stans would never do. :oldlol:


Russell’s team would often win by a field goal or two. The fact is Wilt’s teams were very comparable

Nah, that just shows how great Wilt was. At times Wilt's team had 3 HOF against 7. Wilt's greatness is why those games were close but according to people today because he lost he sucks. As if Jordan was going to do anything with 3 HOF against 7. :kobe:

Jordan: 3 HOF against 1; Wilt 3 against 7.

[Soundwave]

"The man" on a basketball team isn't the 3rd leading scorer.

Not in the general public's eyes, they want that player to be no.1. By a wide margin at that usually.

In basketball you have basically a glut of guys that have 3, maybe 4 at best titles as the team's go to no.1 option.

And then basically Jordan at 6.

That gap is not small.

If Jordan had stayed retired at stuck at 3, I don't think the general public's perception is the same today.

[sdot_thadon]

That's the thing tho soundwave, nobody can tell me what matters most to me, or you or the next guy. We all have our own criteria and that's the only logical way people have different goats/goat lists. Who's gonna tell me my opinion is invalid because i should value scoring titles more, or longevity less, or care about someone else's personal mental diagnosis of a man they've never met? These things are very fluid and variable and most of the time your pick or perception is going to be heavily based on what? Words similar to : Like. Prefer. Admire. Worship. words that are opinion based.

[Soundwave]

That's the thing tho soundwave, nobody can tell me what matters most to me, or you or the next guy. We all have our own criteria and that's the only logical way people have different goats/goat lists. Who's gonna tell me my opinion is invalid because i should value scoring titles more, or longevity less, or care about someone else's personal mental diagnosis of a man they've never met? These things are very fluid and variable and most of the time your pick or perception is going to be heavy based on what? Words similar to : Like. Prefer. Admire. Worship. words that are opinion based.

You can have your opinion, but maybe people should also be f**king honest ... they have a GOAT who is there favorite player. And that's OK.

But don't tell me that Michael Jordan isn't actually unbelievably popular (for a player retired for 20+ years) with the general public and that this is just ESPN telling people things.

That's bull sh*t. If ESPN could do that they'd also pull a heavyweight champion boxer that is mega popular out of their ass and another Tiger Woods too if they could.

They can't.

Someone once said to me Kobe is GOAT and then said it's because they simply liked his mentality/mind set towards the game. They would rather watch Kobe Bryant play than LeBron James or Tim Duncan.

And you know what? I really can't argue that. He's a great player, you can nerd it down by saying 1000 different things, but if he's in the discussion and you simply like something better about that particular player, fine, that can be your GOAT. There's no problem with that.

[Roundball_Rock]

"The man" on a basketball team isn't the 3rd leading scorer.

He won as many MVP's as MJ and more than Wilt and LeBron...



But don't tell me that Michael Jordan isn't actually unbelievably popular (for a player retired for 20+ years) with the general public and that this is just ESPN telling people things.

You don't get it. If the media stopping talking about MJ every day would he be this popular 22 years later?

[sdot_thadon]

"The man" on a basketball team isn't the 3rd leading scorer.

Not in the general public's eyes, they want that player to be no.1. By a wide margin at that usually.

In basketball you have basically a glut of guys that have 3, maybe 4 at best titles as the team's go to no.1 option.

And then basically Jordan at 6.

That gap is not small.

If Jordan had stayed retired at stuck at 3, I don't think the general public's perception is the same today.

And how do you rationalize not giving Russell his due as the main man on his teams when he somehow has just as many Mvps as Jordan does?

[Soundwave]

And how do you rationalize not giving Russell his due as the main man on his teams when he somehow has just as many Mvps as Jordan does?

I'm just saying that's what the public wants to see. You can get mad at that or whatever if you want.

When you go watch like some kid's basketball game how often do you go "wow, the kid who was the third leading scorer on his team knocked my socks off".

[Soundwave]

He won as many MVP's as MJ and more than Wilt and LeBron...



You don't get it. If the media stopping talking about MJ every day would he be this popular 22 years later?

When are the media going to stop mentioning Bird and Magic? Or Shaq and Kobe?

Michael Jordan is by far the most reclusive sports superstar ever for the last 20 years. Doesn't do interviews, doesn't even appear in TV commercials anymore, won't even make a public appearance for $100 million dollars. Most people were a bit surprised to see him show up to Kobe's funeral and even more surprised that he would speak (at Vanessa's request).

But now you will say "well f*ck Jordan for building up anticipation for people to see him, how dare he", lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

When are the media going to stop mentioning Bird or Magic? Or Shaq and Kobe?

Do you live in Canada?

[Soundwave]

Do you live in Canada?

I've lived in both countries, why?

[Roundball_Rock]

I've lived in both countries, why?

You mentioned how Gretzky is covered in Canada so I was curious and thought maybe you don't live in the US and don't see how often Jordan is covered here. Jordan versus LeBron was a regular topic on sports talk (and usually these were "Why MJ>LeBron" segments in effect). With the MJ doc it went wild. These shows will spent 3-4 segments on MJ and then you have basketball podcasts doing the same on MJ.

[Soundwave]

You mentioned how Gretzky is covered in Canada so I was curious and thought maybe you don't live in the US and don't see how often Jordan is covered here. Jordan versus LeBron was a regular topic on sports talk (and usually these were "Why MJ>LeBron" segments in effect). With the MJ doc it went wild. These shows will spent 3-4 segments on MJ and then you have basketball podcasts doing the same on MJ.

Nah, I've lived in both countries so I know how both are covered.

Honestly the NHL is more entertaining than the current NBA and has been for a while.

[sdot_thadon]

You can have your opinion, but maybe people should also be f**king honest ... they have a GOAT who is there favorite player. And that's OK.

But don't tell me that Michael Jordan isn't actually unbelievably popular (for a player retired for 20+ years) with the general public and that this is just ESPN telling people things.

That's bull sh*t. If ESPN could do that they'd also pull a heavyweight champion boxer that is mega popular out of their ass and another Tiger Woods too if they could.

They can't.

Someone once said to me Kobe is GOAT and then said it's because they simply liked his mentality/mind set towards the game. They would rather watch Kobe Bryant play than LeBron James or Tim Duncan.

And you know what? I really can't argue that. He's a great player, you can nerd it down by saying 1000 different things, but if he's in the discussion and you simply like something better about that particular player, fine, that can be your GOAT. There's no problem with that.
Mj has been my goat since 98, at some point I may have been a bigger stan than even 3ball :facepalm But he still is one of my favorite 2 players to ever live, the 2nd being Lebron. Following Lebron's career the entire way actually caused me to reevaluate MJ's along the way. Not in some "my childhood was destroyed" type of way but in a "realization of the pedestal he was on" sort of way. I watched Kobe go through the wringer before Lebron did, but it didn't bother me as much because i was a Kobe fan but in that cover band sort of way. He and even moreso Lebron's career were graded on an insane curve that didn't exist before them. So it's only natural that when they got to the level where it made sense to speak about them and Mike that you bring the same level of scrutiny to Mike. That's what has happend the last near decade. His popularity will never die, don't worry. His perception may change tho, it happens to all greats.



You don't get it. If the media stopping talking about MJ every day would he be this popular 22 years later?
Yes he would be. It's called nostalgia, we hold on to the things that were great in our formative years. Musicians, athletes, celebrities etc. Mj was larger than life at the perfect time in our culture to live forever. He's embedded in our culture and not many will admit it but it makes it really difficult to fairly assess him next to other greats. I'm a huge boxing fan and Muhammad Ali has always supplied that same catch 22 to boxing discussions.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm just saying that's what the public wants to see. You can get mad at that or whatever if you want.

When you go watch like some kid's basketball game how often do you go "wow, the kid who was the third leading scorer on his team knocked my socks off".
depends, if that kid was all over the place doing everything else it's hard to ignore.

[Roundball_Rock]

The scrutiny is the difference. Jordan gets none so that keeps him on the pedestal. Can you name any public figure who gets as favorable press as MJ? Even Dr. Fauci gets more criticism than MJ. :lol

[knicksman]

Jordan's own "doc" showed he was considered the GOAT after 3 rings and 3 MVP's. So all this resume stuff is BS after the fact because he has a better resume than LeBron.

How do you think LeBron has gotten to #2? All these basketball historians on the street concluded individually that he is #2?

Most people in the general public couldn't tell you details of stuff that is actually important (how many people can find Afghanistan on a map?) but we are supposed to believe people carefully studied and analyzed to get MJ #1 and LeBron #2 for a sport that isn't even the most popular sport in its home country?

One thing that is never discussed about Jordan is all has success came in basically the same situation. Same coach, same system, same team, even the same second superstar. Kareem, Wilt, LeBron in different situations. Wilt reinvented his game in 3 different ways and dominated as a scorer, passer, and defender/rebounder at different points in his career. Jordan couldn't have done what Wilt did.



So why are they covering him every day? :lol

Jordan is the GOAT coz he has the best skillset. And Kobe prove it by winning 5 and kawhi 2. Russell players have never won again and he won at a time when there are only 8 teams so it could be that hes just lucky.

[HoopsNY]

You can have your opinion, but maybe people should also be f**king honest ... they have a GOAT who is there favorite player. And that's OK.

But don't tell me that Michael Jordan isn't actually unbelievably popular (for a player retired for 20+ years) with the general public and that this is just ESPN telling people things.

That's bull sh*t. If ESPN could do that they'd also pull a heavyweight champion boxer that is mega popular out of their ass and another Tiger Woods too if they could.

They can't.

Someone once said to me Kobe is GOAT and then said it's because they simply liked his mentality/mind set towards the game. They would rather watch Kobe Bryant play than LeBron James or Tim Duncan.

And you know what? I really can't argue that. He's a great player, you can nerd it down by saying 1000 different things, but if he's in the discussion and you simply like something better about that particular player, fine, that can be your GOAT. There's no problem with that.

To put it simply: Russell was a dominant defensive force. Jordan was dominant defensively and offensively. And the aspect of his offense that made him dominant just so happened to be the most important aspect of the game - scoring. As much as I think Russell deserves his top 10 nod, I don't find him to be in the conversation with MJ, especially when you consider the HOF supporting cast that played alongside with him.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan is the GOAT coz he has the best skillset. And Kobe prove it by winning 5 and kawhi 2. Russell players have never won again and he won at a time when there are only 8 teams so it could be that hes just lucky.

It is an interesting point that you've raised there. Guys like Kobe and Kawhi have both tried to model their games like MJ's and have the results to show for it.

[Axe]

Give it a break, guys.

Someone will just cry and get emotional the more you praise or worship jordan for his own so-called 'greatness'. We have that thing called 'bigotry' here and it's very astounding.

[Whoah10115]

Roundball goes overboard but when you have people literally ignoring facts and claiming MJ was somehow a better rebounder than LeBron because defensive rebounds don’t count you see his points.

Who's the equalizer? Roundball or the one who makes the thread? That's the thing. Not a chicken and the egg issue, because Roundball is a chicken well after we've had lots of chickens.

Not that I lean Jordan, but again, LeBron is a 3 so they do have different roles on the glass. And remember, as I said to you before, the offensive glass helps one's case, it doesn't lead to Amare>KG.

Also, Kareem really does not have a case. Kareem has climbed up within the last decade-15 years. Sure, anyone can go up and down, but in the 90's, as a kid I'd have said Kareem because he was famous. My Dad very much knew him because he came to the US when Kareem was leaving UCLA, and the goggles were iconic later on. Neither Wilt nor Russell have had that visibility. The sky hook is iconic. The Lakers. He played with Magic. His name is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it was Lew Alcindor.

And yet almost every list different magazines would post, I'd usually see Kareem #3. When people wanted to be contrarian, if they weren't going Magic (and sometimes Bird), they'd say Wilt. Pesonally, I think people want something to talk.

[Roundball_Rock]

ESPN had a graphic of "all the HOF players 'Jordan' eliminated" just yesterday. Casual fans will see the graphic and assume Jordan had this unusually tough competition and Jordan overcame it ("Jordan eliminated" not "Chicago eliminated"). Then he gets 70% in a poll commissioned by the same media entity. Shocked--shocked!

When is the last time they ran that graphic on Kareem or Russell or LeBron?
Jordan faced 3 HOF in "his" entire 93' run (2 in the final 3 rounds). Kareem, LeBron, Wilt faced 3, 4, 5, or even 7 in one series in their eras.

[HoopsNY]

When is the last time they ran that graphic on Kareem or Russell or LeBron? Jordan faced 3 HOF in "his" entire 93' run (2 in the final 3 rounds). Kareem, LeBron, Wilt faced 3, 4, 5, or even 7 in one series in their eras.

It's not about HOF'ers. It's about what those players were producing at the time they played against one another. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, then everyone knows that guys like Kareem and Wilt played with great HOF'ers and or all-stars during their tenure. If I'm not mistaken, Kareem and Wilt both had 8 fellow all-stars.

So obviously if you're facing, for example, Dr. J, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks, Moses Malone, and Andrew Toney for a series, that's pretty tough, and an impressive lineup. But it really does help when you can also have high level players like Magic, Kareem, Wilkes, Nixon, McAdoo on the same team. And in other years, throw in James Worthy.

The same goes for Wilt when playing alongside West, Baylor, Goodrich, Arizin, Greer, or Gola. These weren't random players playing alongside Wilt. I mean, have you considered what it would have been like to place Jordan alongside Bird, McHale, Parish, and Dennis Johnson? The Celtics would have won 10 chips in a row.

And let's be clear, none of this takes away from the fact that relative to the competition, Mj also had a great team. All you have to do is go through the list of teams that the Bulls faced from 1991-1998.

I find it odd how you consistently overlook that and always make it a HOF discussion. Just because James Harden will be in the HOF, doesn't mean that he was of HOF production in 2012. Sure, he was a quality player, but how do you put him ahead of his time?

[Roundball_Rock]

always make it a HOF discussion

Take it up with ESPN. It showed up on my Facebook feed yesterday and that misleading graphic is a good example of what some of us are talking about. Days earlier they had one "comparing" Jordan's resume to LeBron/Durant/Curry. Those are not his peers. Why didn't they do LeBron/Kareem/Russell? Here is an example of why:

MVP's: Jordan 5, LeBron/Durant/Curry 8
MVP's: Jordan 5, Kareem/LeBron/Russell 15

Slightly different perception given...:lol

Don't be naive. The graphic maker knew exactly what they were doing and cherry picked players to make Jordan look like the "clear GOAT."


It's about what those players were producing at the time they played against one another.

Robert Parish counts as a HOF player against the Bulls in Charlotte--not on the Bulls in Chicago. :oldlol:

Stop the spin. ESPN consistently churns out this misleading stuff.

[HoopsNY]

I'm not spinning anything and my post wasn't about ESPN. It was about your misleading posts in making everything about HOF'ers on opposing teams, while disregarding the level of support on that specific player's team.


Robert Parish counts as a HOF player against the Bulls in Charlotte--not on the Bulls in Chicago.

This is exactly the point. No one looks at the Hornets and says, "wow they have a HOF player in Parish." That would be absurd.

[Elosha]

As an entertainer sure but it says nothing about basketball ability. It doesn't have to look pretty.

You are confusing what I said. I'm not judging aesthetics by how "pretty" it looks or how entertaining it looks. I'm saying a certain superior skill level may end up being more nuanced, more difficult to plan for/defend against, and - as a byproduct of all those legit basketball attributes, one GOAT's comparatively smoother, more nuanced game is indicative of certain superior skillsets, as well as being more aesthetically pleasing to watch.

[HoopsNY]

You are confusing what I said. I'm not judging aesthetics by how "pretty" it looks or how entertaining it looks. I'm saying a certain superior skill level may end up being more nuanced, more difficult to plan for/defend against, and - as a byproduct of all those legit basketball attributes, one GOAT's comparatively smoother, more nuanced game is indicative of certain superior skillsets, as well as being more aesthetically pleasing to watched.

If anyone played basketball on this forum in either high school or college, then they would know how this works. Having a strong move to both the right and left makes it difficult for defenses to guard.

Being ambidextrous doesn't allow defenders to force your shot either way.

Being able to have a quick first step throws defenders off and creates more spacing, which opens up your mid-range and 3 pt shot.

All of what you mentioned is certainly understood, but haters will take it as it merely being, "you just like the way he plays." No, what you're saying is that the way he plays, in all of its varieties, makes him impossible to guard. THAT'S the point

[Elosha]

If anyone played basketball on this forum in either high school or college, then they would know how this works. Having a strong move to both the right and left makes it difficult for defenses to guard.

Being ambidextrous doesn't allow defenders to force your shot either way.

Being able to have a quick first step throws defenders off and creates more spacing, which opens up your mid-range and 3 pt shot.

All of what you mentioned is certainly understood, but haters will take it as it merely being, "you just like the way he plays." No, what you're saying is that the way he plays, in all of its varieties, makes him impossible to guard. THAT'S the point

You're right, and I did play HS basketball, as a starter on a very good team. This is the difference b/t those of us who played at a competitive level, and those keyboard warriors on ISH.