Stocton or nash?

[Bronbron23]

most people probably say nash because of his bogus mvps but stocton was literally better at everything other than maybe scoring and even thats close. Put stocton in dantoni's system and his scoring would be up. Other than scoring stocton was a better passer and defender.

Also worth noting that in the new era where gaurds are more of a focus offensively a guy like nash can win 2 MVP's compared to the 90's where a player like nash wouldnt come close to winning one.

So who got?

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton

[Lebron23]

most people probably say nash because of his bogus mvps but stocton was literally better at everything other than maybe scoring and even thats close. Put stocton in dantoni's system and his scoring would be up. Other than scoring stocton was a better passer and defender.

Also worth noting that in the new era where gaurds are more of a focus offensively a guy like nash can win 2 MVP's compared to the 90's where a player like nash wouldnt come close to winning one.

So who got?

Nash was a much better playoffs performer.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Stockton is better. I’m still a fan of Nash.

[SATAN]

Stockton

[Bronbron23]

Nash was a much better playoffs performer.

Not sure about that. He shot more because of the era and he wasnt playing with one of the greatest shooters ever but im not sure he was a better performer. Even if he was slightly better scoring wise stocton was a slightly better passer. He was also better on the defensive end. Nash is one of the all time worst defensively.

[Whoah10115]

Stockton is not as good a scorer as Nash.

Nash won two MVP's. He should have won two MVP's.

Arguing for Shaq in 2005 is comedy.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I have to go with Nash because he led much more #1 ranked offenses and was always clear cut best player on his team and Stockton never really was. Stockton wasn't as good of a scorer, playoff performer, offensive anchor as Nash but makes it close because his defense. Overall I still say Nash. The defense of small guys like Stockton is never very impactful enough to change your mind on picking him over superior players like Nash.

[1987_Lakers]

I'd take '05-'07 Nash over any version of Stockton.

[Axe]

Nash should have been given a chance to play in the finals but the sad reality is that it never even happened at all.

[sdot_thadon]

I think Nash because like some others said he's a more reliable scorer. And he was the leader of his teams, I personally like Stockton better as a player because he's a 2 way player but if i had to choose for my team I'd probably want Nash.

[Bronbron23]

I have to go with Nash because he led much more #1 ranked offenses and was always clear cut best player on his team and Stockton never really was. Stockton wasn't as good of a scorer, playoff performer, offensive anchor as Nash but makes it close because his defense. Overall I still say Nash. The defense of small guys like Stockton is never very impactful enough to change your mind on picking him over superior players like Nash.

Only thing with this is that he was playing in a dantoni offense and he never had one of the greatest scorers ever on his team. Put stocton in a dantoni system without malone and his numbers would be the same as nash.

[Xiao Yao You]

Only thing with this is that he was playing in a dantoni offense and he never had one of the greatest scorers ever on his team. Put stocton in a dantoni system without malone and his numbers would be the same as nash.

I don't think his numbers would be the same. He still wouldn't have been as aggressive shooting the ball. Those Suns teams certainly would have been better though.

[sdot_thadon]

Only thing with this is that he was playing in a dantoni offense and he never had one of the greatest scorers ever on his team. Put stocton in a dantoni system without malone and his numbers would be the same as nash.

Based on what? What did Stockton ever do to suggest this?

[Lebron23]

Only thing with this is that he was playing in a dantoni offense and he never had one of the greatest scorers ever on his team. Put stocton in a dantoni system without malone and his numbers would be the same as nash.

Nash was a 18/8 guy in his last 2 years with the Mavericks. People also forget that Stockton played under the Jerry Sloan Pick and Roll System which also made Deron Willians a very competent Pg.

[Bronbron23]

Based on what? What did Stockton ever do to suggest this?

what did he ever do? Well he was already putting up numbers close to nash anyway and that was in a offense that was a little more slower than the suns and with karl malone on his team. Common sense says that in dantoni offense with no karl malone stocton would easily score an extra 2 or 3 points a game.

[LukeWalton]

Nash also has two rings..


as a consultant though

[Bronbron23]

Nash was a 18/8 guy in his last 2 years with the Mavericks. People also forget that Stockton played under the Jerry Sloan Pick and Roll System which also made Deron Willians a very competent Pg.

yeah but he wasnt playing in a system designed to run almost everything through the post. It was a different era. The 2000's brought in a new style of play that allowed for more guard scoring. The only difference between nash and stocton scoring wise was nash shot more a few more shots. In the seasons where they shot the same amount of shots there almost identical on points. Stocton also usually a had a couple more assists which count as offwnce too so no matter how you look at it stocton had the same offensive impact but had a much bigger impact defensively.

[tpols]

stockton imo

[Whoah10115]

Nash was a 18/8 guy in his last 2 years with the Mavericks. People also forget that Stockton played under the Jerry Sloan Pick and Roll System which also made Deron Willians a very competent Pg.

So because Deron randomly fell off a cliff that means he wasn't competent before?

He was playing like Deron Williams when he first got to NJ.

[Bronbron23]

I don't think his numbers would be the same. He still wouldn't have been as aggressive shooting the ball. Those Suns teams certainly would have been better though.

i diasgree. Theyre already only separated by a point or 2 offensively. Nash just took more shots. Theres 9nly one time where stocton took more than 12 shots a game and that was in the 89 playoffs. He took 19 shots a game and scored 27 pts a game on 50% shooting. I think its safe to say without karl malone in a gaurd friendly offense Stockton would easily score 2 or 3 points a game

[FKAri]

Relative to their eras, it's probably Nash. But in absolute terms, it's Stockton. Then again we always compare relative to eras, don't we? Otherwise 90% of the time the more recent player is better.

[Axe]

Nash also has two rings..


as a consultant though
Is that even significant enough to their comparison in the OP?

[Bronbron23]

Is that even significant enough to the comparison in the OP?

What that he won 2 rings as a consultant? Definitely not. If he won even just 1 ring as a player then Definitely yes.

[Reggie43]

Stockton was much better

[Lebron23]

So because Deron randomly fell off a cliff that means he wasn't competent before?

He was playing like Deron Williams when he first got to NJ.

He was averaging in double figures in utah. I meant Deron was a more successful player in utah. He definitely can ball, but the sloan system inflated his assists per game.

[Reggie43]

Nash was the product of the rule changes and the system.

[Axe]

What that he won 2 rings as a consultant? Definitely not. If he won even just 1 ring as a player then Definitely yes.
The statement just made me scratch my head out of curiosity lol

[Lebron23]

What that he won 2 rings as a consultant? Definitely not. If he won even just 1 ring as a player then Definitely yes.

Let's face it stu jackson and the nba robbed the suns after they suspended amare and diaw in game 5.

[FKAri]

Nash was the product of the rule changes and the system.

I mean so were bigs pre 2010s.

[Bronbron23]

The statement just made me scratch my head out of curiosity lol

Lol Yeah i think he was just messing around

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Only thing with this is that he was playing in a dantoni offense and he never had one of the greatest scorers ever on his team. Put stocton in a dantoni system without malone and his numbers would be the same as nash.

What about Jerry Sloan's offense and what it did for Derron Williams stats? Both are great coaches.

Also, 2010 Nash was without D'antoni and he still led league in assists and had suns at #1 offense.

[Axe]

What about Jerry Sloan's offense and what it did for Derron Williams stats? Both are great coaches.

Also, 2010 Nash was without D'antoni and he still led league in assists and had suns at #1 offense.
There's already a recent thread here about the systems of those two masterminds. Just check it out.

[Bronbron23]

Let's face it stu jackson and the nba robbed the suns after they suspended amare and diaw in game 5.

Nah man he was just following the league rule. He would absolutely have no motivation to help the spurs. They're a boring team and phoenix at the time had a white mvp in steve nash. Ratings wise it would of made more sense to help phoenix. Plus spurs were gonna beat suns regardless. They were up in the series before the suspension. They were 5he better team.

[Whoah10115]

Nah man he was just following the league rule. He would absolutely have no motivation to help the spurs. They're a boring team and phoenix at the time had a white mvp in steve nash. Ratings wise it would of made more sense to help phoenix. Plus spurs were gonna beat suns regardless. They were up in the series before the suspension. They were 5he better team.

What about when David Robinson left the bench (I think it was 2003 against Mavs or Nets)?

After the game Barkley said he hoped the league wouldn't suspend Robinson. They didn't.

I always thought the league hoped for San Antonio to be successful, as they appeared cleaner.

[Bronbron23]

What about Jerry Sloan's offense and what it did for Derron Williams stats? Both are great coaches.

Also, 2010 Nash was without D'antoni and he still led league in assists and had suns at #1 offense.

Yeah they are but deron williams situation was different even though they had the same coach. First off he was a more dynamic scorer than both nash and stocton. Second who was on his team? He was usually the best scorer on his team. He didnt have a karl malone who was scoring almost 30 a game.

And nash was still nice without dantoni i never said otherwise. 2010 was impressive but his number still weren't much more impressive than stoctons and he didnt have anymore success so i dont know. Its a good argument though. That team definitely overachieved.

[Bronbron23]

What about when David Robinson left the bench (I think it was 2003 against Mavs or Nets)?

After the game Barkley said he hoped the league wouldn't suspend Robinson. They didn't.

I always thought the league hoped for San Antonio to be successful, as they appeared cleaner.

Maybe. I just have a hard time believing anyone would prefer to watch the spurs over that suns team. Could be wrong though. Even still i think the spurs still win. They were the better team

[GimmeThat]

I think if you go by the give and go play, you'd lean towards Nash. Which pretty much makes Deron Williams and Baron Davis to be near equal in my book.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah they are but deron williams situation was different even though they had the same coach. First off he was a more dynamic scorer than both nash and stocton. Second who was on his team? He was usually the best scorer on his team. He didnt have a karl malone who was scoring almost 30 a game.

And nash was still nice without dantoni i never said otherwise. 2010 was impressive but his number still weren't much more impressive than stoctons and he didnt have anymore success so i dont know. Its a good argument though. That team definitely overachieved.

D Williams never did anything without Sloan, so as far as i'm concerned his stats were inflated by Sloan. At least Nash proved he can still be MVP level without D'antoni. If you lead league in assists and anchor the #1 offense, you are instantly mvp level even if his stats were better with D'antoni.

[Bronbron23]

D Williams never did anything without Sloan, so as far as i'm concerned his stats were inflated by Sloan. At least Nash proved he can still be MVP level without D'antoni. If you lead league in assists and anchor the #1 offense, you are instantly mvp level even if his stats were better with D'antoni.

Yeah but im not arguing deron williams and his success with sloan jas little in common with stocton given the era and team dynamics.

[Reggie43]

In their best years Nash leads Stockton by a point and a half while John has 3 more assists 2 more steals per game. It is clear who is better statistically. Add in some intangibles like defense, toughness, physicality, the ability to impact the game on both ends then this is not even a question.

[Lion's pride]

The answer to this should be based on how much value do you put into defense. Nash had more take over ability, but is an below average defender. Stockton was much tougher on defense.

It should also matter what ERA those players were in.

Either way I lean on Stockton..

[DoctorP]

im watching the 97 finals now. Stockton is a quick little bugger, setting up the offense, getting whatever he wants in the offense. its very close. Nash had a wilder game. Stocktons was classic halfcourt.

The speed is very similar.

Nash was flashier.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah but im not arguing deron williams and his success with sloan jas little in common with stocton given the era and team dynamics.

You said Steve Nash stats were enhanced by D'antoni. I'm assuming you said that because Mike D'antoni success with Harden in a different era and team dynamics. I'm using the same formula you used for Nash\Harden\D'antoni but applying it on Stockton\Williams\Sloan.

[DoctorP]

Stockton shooting a very high percentage and babysitting the offense like a big daddy. Impressive stuff here in the 97 finals

[DoctorP]

Im giving Nash the upper hand on one on one ISO for now

[Round Mound]

Stockton

[DoctorP]

Stockton 7 TOs in this 97 Finals game 1

Physical defense makng for a disgusting display of bball. hand checking, grabbing. ..

[Xiao Yao You]

i diasgree. Theyre already only separated by a point or 2 offensively. Nash just took more shots. Theres 9nly one time where stocton took more than 12 shots a game and that was in the 89 playoffs. He took 19 shots a game and scored 27 pts a game on 50% shooting. I think its safe to say without karl malone in a gaurd friendly offense Stockton would easily score 2 or 3 points a game

He could have scored a lot more but the question is would he? He was unselfish to a fault.

[Bronbron23]

He could have scored a lot more but the question is would he? He was unselfish to a fault.

Fair point but we're not talking alot more shots. They're only separated by a point or 2 already. And either way its kind of irrelevant because stocton generally gets 1 to 3 assists more a game anyway which is also offense so at thw very least there already equal offensively while stocton still has the buge advantage defensively.