Yes Jordan is a better passer than Lebron

[Walk on Water]

That’s what everyone voted. Lebron averages a little more assists but he holds the ball more and turned it over more. I read he turned it over 5.8 times in a Finals.
Yes Lebron does do some long passes and that’s flashy but not as efficient. Jordan is the more efficient passer when you take into account assists over turnovers.

It’s amazing because Lebron is compared to Magic in passing and yet Jordan still beats him out!

Last Dance puts everything into perspective. When I grew up, everyone saw Jordan win and succeed and wanted to be like him. With a Lebron I saw him lose mostly.

[sdot_thadon]

no the hell he ain't

/thread.

[SouBeachTalents]

Shut up warriorfag

[LostCause]

Nah

[knicksman]

kobe is even a better passer than lebron. Just look at the clutch stats.

[PP34Deuce]

Lol. Ronda rousey is a better wrestler than charlotte flair.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan's a better batter than Barry Bonds.....

[Reggie43]

Similar to why I consider Larry Bird the greatest passer of all time because they got their numbers within the flow of the offense as opposed to being ball dominant and having high assist numbers but not taking the better scoring opportunity just to setup an inferior teammate.

[Lebron23]

Lebron Assists Title 1, Jordan 0

[Soundwave]

I'm a Jordan fan, but LeBron is a better passer.

That said Jordan is an underrated passer, when he wanted to turn it on his vision was exceptional for a SG, a lot of these passes are Magic/Bird quality:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaqbclM08c

I mean how many times do you see a Durant or Harden pull off some of those passes?

There isn't an aspect of his game that was really lacking, he was good skill wise at virtually everything.

[FultzNationRISE]

I swear to God OP, I will come up from behind and pin you against a wall, you feel my icy cold hands run down your spine onto your bum. I grab both cheeks, palming them like balls, as I spread them revealing your asshole. I then whip out my anaconda and forcefully enter your rectum. You scream in agony as I tear you anus to shreds.

[Axe]

I swear to God OP, I will come up from behind and pin you against a wall, you feel my icy cold hands run down your spine onto your bum. I grab both cheeks, palming them like balls, as I spread them revealing your asshole. I then whip out my anaconda and forcefully enter your rectum. You scream in agony as I tear you anus to shreds.
Oof

[Whoah10115]

The main difference in LeBron's favor is that he is a better full-court passer, and also his full-court vision.

[Axe]

The main difference in LeBron's favor is that he is a better full-court passer, and also his full-court vision.
His height helps him as he towers over the guards as well.

[HoopsNY]

There has to be a few things considered when discussing this topic. For one, LeBron averages more assists. That's a plus, not a minus. And he didn't just start averaging more assists than Mj. Even in Cleveland he averaged more assists (around 7 a game) earlier on in his career. When you consider Per 100 possession numbers, LeBron still averages more than Mj.

Added to this fact is that LeBron averages more assists in the playoffs. This is an area that probably stands out more. And LeBron has excelled in the finals where his assist numbers are concerned, averaging 7.7 assists to Mj's 6.0. The difference isn't drastic, but it is there.

For these reasons, I think most people consider LeBron to be a better passer. And there are justifications for it that are reasonable.

The arguments for Mj, I think, should be considered. For one, LeBron is a wing-man and played the point-forward position, which traditionally, has given more opportunities for assists. This is why you find players like Pippen, Hill, Lebron, etc averaging more typically than your average shooting guard which, historically, has been a mid-range shooting position that was one of the least involved positions within an offense. That drastically changed, I believe, with guys like George Gervin and Michael Jordan.

Jordan is one of the leading assist men all-time for shooting guards. Other than Clyde Drexler and Dwyane Wade (who really ran the point guard position on and off early in his career), I can't think of other shooting guards who averaged more assists per game. So position should be taken into account, as well as roles.

I also believe Mj had less offensive weapons on his teams throughout his career. From shooters to scorers, the availability for high production from supporting casts is one that differentiates the two. Yes, you had Paxson, Armstrong, Pippen, Kerr, Kukoc, and Woolridge, but 3 of those guys were mainly bench players.

Compare that to Wade, Bosh, Williams, Gibson, Ilgauskas, Szczerbiak, Chalmers, Allen, Korver, Kyrie, Love, Kuzma, Ingram, and Davis. The list is more extensive and offers more opportunity for guys who can finish at the rim or provide mid-range to three point shooting, which is a staple in the league the last ten years.

This doesn't necessarily tip the scale, but the objective is to look at it from both perspectives. And I believe offensive production from both supporting casts is crucial in the debate.

Jordan's ability to run the point was seen in the 1988-89 season when he played 24 games at PG and averaged 10.7 assists. We saw further examples of his passing ability in the NBA finals where he averaged 11.4 assists against Magic and the Lakers, an average which no other player has passed since he did it in '91, and that includes the likes of Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, LeBron, Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker, and Steph Curry. That performance is the 7th highest all-time, and only two other players have eclipsed him (Magic and Cousy, with Magic holding the first 5 records).

...(to be continued)

[HoopsNY]

If I'm not mistaken, Jordan's assist to turnover ratio in the finals is also better, but only slightly. And lastly, there is the eye-test. LeBron averages more assists than Larry Bird, but I think Bird was a better passer - in the post, in transition, on a fast break, and with give and go/touch passes. To me, Bird had a higher basketball IQ.

And if assists are meant to be everything, then consider John Wall must be a better passer than Steve Nash, or Rod Strickland. Or a better example would be Deron Williams over Mark Jackson. Isiah Thomas averaged more assists than Jason Kidd. I don't think Isiah was a better passer than Kidd, nor do I think Williams was a better passer than Jackson.

In conclusion, I don't believe Mj is necessarily a better passer than LeBron, but I do believe the two are closer than some would like to admit.

[HoopsNY]

The main difference in LeBron's favor is that he is a better full-court passer, and also his full-court vision.

This is very true.

[Roundball_Rock]

The next thread will be about how MJ is a better shot blocker than KAJ.

[Bronbron23]

its closer than people think. He generally gets less than 2 assists more a game than mj and in the one year where mj played 25% of the season in a lebron type roll he had just as much or more assists than alot of lebrons seasons. Put mj in a ball dominant roll instead of the triangle and he averages almost the same. We'll really never know forsure though so you have to give it to lebron.

One thing is for sure though. Sense mj is close to bron in assists either mj is a better passer than his haters give him credit for or lebron is much worse.

[Roundball_Rock]

It isn't about assists. It is about the type of passes. LeBron spoon feeds his teammates easy baskets, which is why their efficiency plummets without him.

[sdot_thadon]

There has to be a few things considered when discussing this topic. For one, LeBron averages more assists. That's a plus, not a minus.

It's a bigger gulf than many want to admit. If you use the same standards we use to say blank is a better scorer it isn't even a question:

-volume (easily Lebron because it's inherently part of his game as a guy who runs ball clubs)

-stats (Lebron by a decent margin)

-efficiency (I don't have the assist to turnover numbers in front of me but let's just say Mj for sake of discussion since you state it in your post.)

-eye test/ skill /whatever you'd like to call it (Lebron can do more things with the ball from a passing standpoint than Mj did.)

-accolades (Lebron is top 10 alltime in assist, the only forward in the top 30. And should add an assist title this year)

If it was the other way around we'd hear Lebron isn't even close......

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at players when they leave LeBron.

Wade from 55% to 47%
Bosh from 52% to 46%
Love 46% to 39%
Irving 49% to 49% (same)
Williams 44% to 39% (in Cleveland pre-trade)
Jamison 49% to 43% (49% in Cleveland post-trade)

How about Jordan?

Pippen 47% to 49%
Grant 51% to 52%
Armstrong 50% to 48%
Cartwright 41% to 51%
Oakley 48% to 51%

So LeBron has a Nash-type impact while players shoot better without MJ.

[Bronbron23]

It isn't about assists. It is about the type of passes. LeBron spoon feeds his teammates easy baskets, which is why their efficiency plummets without him.

most of brons passes are just drive and dishes. This three ball era is made for easy assists. Its why harden and westbrook can get the amount of assists they get.

Its lebrons scoring that makes him so dangerous. Always has been.

As far as his teammates efficiency plummeting i dont know. Wades went up with bron but bosh didnt change a whole lot. Kyres went up when he left bron and loves was generally better without bron. Maybe the non stars get more efficient im not sure. I think generally when you play with a great player that draws lots of attention your gonnq get better looks and therefore be more efficient. This is probably more advantageous for role players than star players. Pips efficiency didn't change much without mj but guys like paxson qnd kerr had their most efficient seasons with mj.

[ELITEpower23]

It's a bigger gulf than many want to admit. If you use the same standards we use to say blank is a better scorer it isn't even a question:

-volume (easily Lebron because it's inherently part of his game as a guy who runs ball clubs)

-stats (Lebron by a decent margin)

-efficiency (I don't have the assist to turnover numbers in front of me but let's just say Mj for sake of discussion since you state it in your post.)

-eye test/ skill /whatever you'd like to call it (Lebron can do more things with the ball from a passing standpoint than Mj did.)

-accolades (Lebron is top 10 alltime in assist, the only forward in the top 30. And should add an assist title this year)

If it was the other way around we'd hear Lebron isn't even close......

Michael Jordan is great, he is not a better passer than LeBron. And yes, LeBron does have the better assist-to-turnover ratio for the regular season and the playoffs, although it is closer than you'd think.

[Soundwave]

Look at players when they leave LeBron.

Wade from 55% to 47%
Bosh from 52% to 46%
Love 46% to 39%
Irving 49% to 49% (same)
Williams 44% to 39% (in Cleveland pre-trade)
Jamison 49% to 43% (49% in Cleveland post-trade)

How about Jordan?

Pippen 47% to 49%
Grant 51% to 52%
Armstrong 50% to 48%
Cartwright 41% to 51%
Oakley 48% to 51%

So LeBron has a Nash-type impact while players shoot better without MJ.

So which is it, Wade and Bosh were great or not? Because if they clearly were great players before hand and achieved better efficiency afterwards, 2 titles is very disappointing overall.

Really the only one who's efficiency went up was Wade, Bosh had seasons above 50% FG prior, but I'd say that was a negative for Wade in a sense because he relegated himself to a spot shooter/finisher, which wasn't well suited for his game. It's why that Miami team was never really a "great team".

[Bronbron23]

Look at players when they leave LeBron.

Wade from 55% to 47%
Bosh from 52% to 46%
Love 46% to 39%
Irving 49% to 49% (same)
Williams 44% to 39% (in Cleveland pre-trade)
Jamison 49% to 43% (49% in Cleveland post-trade)

How about Jordan?

Pippen 47% to 49%
Grant 51% to 52%
Armstrong 50% to 48%
Cartwright 41% to 51%
Oakley 48% to 51%

So LeBron has a Nash-type impact while players shoot better without MJ.

This is some nick wright shit dude. Ill give u wade but:
Love -2013 wolves 46% 2014 cavs 43% love had his most efficient years pre and post bron
Bosh- 09 raps 52% 10 heat 50% he did have some of his most efficient years in mia but that also coincides with his prime
Kyrie- 2016 cavs 47% 2017 celts 49% kyrie had his most efficient seasons after bron but that also coincides with his prime

Your talking ish dude

[Roundball_Rock]

As far as his teammates efficiency plummeting i dont know

I posted the info for key teammates probably as you typed this.

Kerr's most efficient years were when the 3 point line was moved back, for obvious reasons, so not attributable to MJ.

Pippen was Chicago's LeBron. If you look at the efficiency of the Bulls players when he was out in 98' and when he came back there was an increase when he returned. Kerr shot 40% before Pippen came back and 50% with Pippen, for example.


So which is it, Wade and Bosh were great or not? Because if they clearly were great players before hand and achieved better efficiency afterwards

Nash had the same effect:

Amare 56% with Nash, 50% without him
Marion 53% with Nash, 46% without him (traded in season)
Johnson 46% with Nash, 45% without him
Diaw 57% with Nash, 50% without him (traded in season)
Bell 43% with Nash, 44% without him (traded)
Richardson 47% with Nash, 43% without him (traded)
Hill 45% with Nash, 39% without him

Amare, Marion, Johnson were all great players. Nash made them better (not so much with JJ).

We could do the same with Magic Johnson.


This is some nick wright shit dude. Ill give u wade but:
Love -2013 wolves 46% 2014 cavs 43% love had his most efficient years pre and post bron
Bosh- 09 raps 52% 10 heat 50% he did have some of his most efficient years in mia but that also coincides with his prime
Kyrie- 2016 cavs 47% 2017 celts 49% kyrie had his most efficient seasons after bron but that also coincides with his prime


You are cherry picking years. You can't compare 2-3 years apart. I am comparing years consecutively or, better yet, where possible in the same season if a trade occurred.

[bizil]

Nah Bron is the better passer than MJ. Bron and Bird are EASILY the top two passing forwards of all time. The reason why is because their passing ability is ON PAR with the great PASS FIRST PG's of all time. Like a Magic, Oscar, Stock, Kidd, Zeke, CP3, Nash, etc. If I had to list the top ten passers of ALL TIME regardless of position, Bron and Bird would BOTH be on that list.

Among SCORE FIRST type of players though, MJ is AMONG the best passers EVER! Most of the today's elite PG's THINK more like MJ than they do a Lebron actually. Score first type of guards WHO STILL have very good OR great handles and passing ability to run the PG. They just THINK from a score first type of mindset. Look at Steph, Russ, Kyrie, Dame, and Kemba for example.

But the KEY DIFFERENCES between Bron and MJ passing wise are Bron being pass first AND passing guys open. In other words, Bron puts NOTHING above being a great floor general and dropping dimes. And FROM THERE, he has the ABILITY to put the rock in a position to put his guys in an ADVANTAGEOUS position to score. Either while tightly defended, making the unexpected fancy dime that nobody sees coming, and knowing ALL of his teammates sweet spots.

MJ FOR SURE is one of the best passing SG's ever no doubt. But the ONLY GUYS who are just as good or better passers than Bron are the pass first PG's like a Magic, Kidd, Stock, Nash, etc. They LOOK to pass first and have the TOOLS to shred defenses with their passing ability. U gotta HAVE THAT COMBO to be on Bron's level as a passer. The fact that MJ's the ULTIMATE KILLER and STILL is an elite floor general HIMSELF is a unique combo in itself. But he's not a better passer than Bron. Watch the tape and it's obvious!

[knicksman]

This is some nick wright shit dude. Ill give u wade but:
Love -2013 wolves 46% 2014 cavs 43% love had his most efficient years pre and post bron
Bosh- 09 raps 52% 10 heat 50% he did have some of his most efficient years in mia but that also coincides with his prime
Kyrie- 2016 cavs 47% 2017 celts 49% kyrie had his most efficient seasons after bron but that also coincides with his prime

Your talking ish dude

its dmavs bro. Roundball is his troll account. lol

[Axe]

its dmavs bro. Roundball is his troll account. lol
You mean this one?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?110728-DMAVS41&styleid=41

[Bronbron23]

I posted the info for key teammates probably as you typed this.

Kerr's most efficient years were when the 3 point line was moved back, for obvious reasons, so not attributable to MJ.

Pippen was Chicago's LeBron. If you look at the efficiency of the Bulls players when he was out in 98' and when he came back there was an increase when he returned. Kerr shot 40% before Pippen came back and 50% with Pippen, for example.



Nash had the same effect:

Amare 56% with Nash, 50% without him
Marion 53% with Nash, 46% without him (traded in season)
Johnson 46% with Nash, 45% without him
Diaw 57% with Nash, 50% without him (traded in season)
Bell 43% with Nash, 44% without him (traded)
Richardson 47% with Nash, 43% without him (traded)
Hill 45% with Nash, 39% without him

Amare, Marion, Johnson were all great players. Nash made them better.

We could do the same with Magic Johnson.



You are cherry picking years. You can't compare 2-3 years apart. I am comparing years consecutively or, better yet, where possible in the same season if a trade occurred.

But its not true love and kyrie werent more efficient with bron.

As far as kerr even of you use the last year with the bulls with the regular line and the following year with the spurs he was still more efficient with mj. He was 45% in 97 and 39% in 98.

[Bronbron23]

its dmavs bro. Roundball is his troll account. lol

Really? Are u sure? I thought dmavs usually made some decent points. This one is bad though. Hes totally fudging the stats nick wright style

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie is an outlier. There are always going to be some. Joe Johnson is the outlier for Nash.

You can cherry pick any player.

Bosh's career best was 54% with LeBron in 13'.
Wade's career best was 55% in 14'.
Love's was 47% in 11'--but Love is a weak example to hang your hat on. He was injury prone from 2012 on and the injuries took a toll on his skills over time. People forget he is still 31 years old but he has declined so much people don't realize his relative youth.


As far as kerr even of you use the last year with the bulls with the regular line and the following year with the spurs he was still more efficient with mj. He was 45% in 97 and 39% in 98.

This is fudging the stats. Kerr shot 40% without Pippen, 50% when Pippen came back (which was noted earlier in this thread). That nets out to 45% since Pippen missed about half the season. Somehow MJ gets the credit? MJ was there for the 40% part of the season, right? :oldlol:

Find a real example. I picked MJ's teammates in his prime in Chicago. All fellow starters, not random guys. For Nash and LeBron I did a similar thing.

Facts are inconvenient some times. Sports and facts are not always a fairy tale. It is ok. MJ was a SG. His job wasn't to do what Nash or LeBron did.

[Axe]

Really? Are u sure? I thought dmavs usually made some decent points. This one is bad though. Hes totally fudging the stats nick wright style
There's a reason why he would be called 3ball's counterpart but this one seems to be more solid, because he's not a mj stan and the fact that he hasn't been banned yet or so it seems. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

Really? Are u sure? I thought dmavs usually made some decent points. This one is bad though. Hes totally fudging the stats nick wright style

well its a troll account

[knicksman]

You mean this one?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?110728-DMAVS41&styleid=41

yes

[Axe]

well its a troll account
It's so obvious he uses his disdain over mj and his stans to postwhore the similar crap in multiple mj, pippen and other related threads. Even if he makes some points, I just think it's unruly already.

[Roundball_Rock]

1) Ridiculous claim made: MJ>LeBron as a passer
2) Data shows otherwise
3) Rattled MJ fans fail to find any data to support ridiculous position in response
4) Trolling, trolling, trolling I tell you! Spare my precious eyes!

Get a grip. Jordan was a SG. His job wasn't the same as LeBron or Nash. If you can't handle basic facts maybe you shouldn't be on a "forum." There are plenty of MJ fan pages on Facebook you could join instead.

[knicksman]

1) Ridiculous claim made: MJ>LeBron as a passer
2) Data shows otherwise
3) Rattled MJ fans fail to find any data to support ridiculous position in response
4) Trolling, trolling, trolling I tell you! Spare my precious eyes!

Get a grip. Jordan was a SG. His job wasn't the same as LeBron or Nash.

dude, just because its not his job doesnt mean he couldnt do it. Jordan averaged 10+ apg in a finals series and averaged triple double in a quarter of a season when he wanted to. Clearly the guy has passing skills, its just not his job.

[GimmeThat]

I'm pretty sure once you've shown you're able to get past 4 defenders, there really aren't any differences left.

[Axe]

You know you're stupid when you take Walk on Water's thread seriously. Mind you it's an alt that everyone makes fun of. It's so obvious that this poster is a mere victim of it.
v v v

1) Ridiculous claim made: MJ>LeBron as a passer
2) Data shows otherwise
3) Rattled MJ fans fail to find any data to support ridiculous position in response
4) Trolling, trolling, trolling I tell you! Spare my precious eyes!

Get a grip. Jordan was a SG. His job wasn't the same as LeBron or Nash. If you can't handle basic facts maybe you shouldn't be on a "forum." There are plenty of MJ fan pages on Facebook you could join instead.

[Bronbron23]

1) Ridiculous claim made: MJ>LeBron as a passer
2) Data shows otherwise
3) Rattled MJ fans fail to find any data to support ridiculous position in response
4) Trolling, trolling, trolling I tell you! Spare my precious eyes!

Get a grip. Jordan was a SG. His job wasn't the same as LeBron or Nash. If you can't handle basic facts maybe you shouldn't be on a "forum." There are plenty of MJ fan pages on Facebook you could join instead.

But you fudged the facts. Kyrie and love werent more efficient with lebron and kerr was more efficient with mj than he was the year after with spurs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is there any evidence to support the claim that MJ is the great passer?

The MJ numbers come from when MJ retired in most cases. In Oakley's case it was after he was traded. Hell, let's do another one, the player who came back in that trade:

Cartwright in NY 88': 54%
Cartwright in CHI 89': 48%

So the guy leaving MJ became more efficient and the guy joining MJ became much less efficient.


kerr was more efficient with mj than he was the year after with spurs.

This is dishonest. He was efficient with Pippen (50%). He was the same with MJ without Pippen and in San Antonio (40% versus 39%). Keep trying. I already gave you BJ Armstrong. Maybe you can find 1-2 more outliers? :cheers:


But you fudged the facts. Kyrie and love werent more efficient with lebron

Did I say Kyrie was more efficient with LeBron?

[Roundball_Rock]

Saying "same" 49% to 49% apparently is "fudging the facts" and saying Kyrie was "more efficient with LeBron." :roll: The dishonesty is shameless.

I kept Irving in the sample even when it wasn't convenient. Just like with Joe Johnson and BJ Armstrong. Why? Integrity and because I know the data is on my side. I don't need to use smoke and mirrors like you do.

If you can't defend your position that is an obvious sign your position is incorrect.


Look at players when they leave LeBron.

Wade from 55% to 47%
Bosh from 52% to 46%
Love 46% to 39%
Irving 49% to 49% (same)
Williams 44% to 39% (in Cleveland pre-trade)
Jamison 49% to 43% (49% in Cleveland post-trade)

How about Jordan?

Pippen 47% to 49%
Grant 51% to 52%
Armstrong 50% to 48%
Cartwright 41% to 51%
Oakley 48% to 51%

So LeBron has a Nash-type impact while players shoot better without MJ.

[Bronbron23]

Is there any evidence to support the claim that MJ is the great passer?

The MJ numbers come from when MJ retired in most cases. In Oakley's case it was after he was traded. Hell, let's do another one, the player who came back in that trade:

Cartwright in NY 88': 54%
Cartwright in CHI 89': 48%

So the guy leaving MJ became more efficient and the guy joining MJ became much less efficient.



This is dishonest. He was efficient with Pippen (50%). He was the same with MJ without Pippen and in San Antonio (40% versus 39%). Keep trying. Eventually you will find one player who was more efficient than MJ. :cheers:



Did I say Kyrie was more efficient with LeBron?

Im not arguing that mj is the better passer. Bron is definitely better.

And your wrong about kerr. 1997-98 45%, 1998-99 39%

And no you didnt say he was more efficient but you made it seem like he was just as efficient when thats not true. 3 years with bron 47% 45% 47%. 3 years in bos 49% 49% 48%. Not much better but its not exactly equal either.

[Bronbron23]

Im not arguing that mj is the better passer. Bron is definitely better.

And your wrong about kerr. 1997-98 45%, 1998-99 39%

And no you didnt say he was more efficient but you made it seem like he was just as efficient when thats not true. 3 years with bron 47% 45% 47%. 3 years in bos 49% 49% 48%. Not much better but its not exactly equal either.

and i already said Paxson. I guess you just missed it

[Roundball_Rock]

And your wrong about kerr. 1997-98 45%, 1998-99 39%

You obviously did not watch back then. Pippen missed about half of 98'. During that time Kerr shot 40%. With Pippen he shot 50%. Somehow you are giving the credit to 45% to MJ when Kerr got there because of his improvement with Pippen.

What are the common themes between Pippen, LeBron, and Nash? They are facilitators who were pass first.


And no you didnt say he was more efficient but you made it seem like he was just as efficient

That's because 49% is the same as 49%. :facepalm


Irving 49% to 49% (same)


and i already said Paxson

That is it? Paxson spent almost his entire career with MJ, outside of his first two years, and his final year when he was a 3/1/1 player who played only 27 games.

Even your star example is shaky. Paxson shot 51% in his last year in SA. He was 47% in Chicago but MJ missed 65 games. The next year he was 49%. That is going across years but your example is poor.

Paxson's improvement "coincided" with Pippen taking on a bigger playmaking role (with Jordan he was 49% two years in a row in 88' and 89') in 90' and 91'. Pippen became the primary playmaker in 91'. Guess what Paxson's career best shooting year was?

Pippen was the LeBron, Nash for the Bulls, not MJ. You won't find that trend with MJ. You will with Pippen (in Chicago and in Portland), just to a smaller degree than LeBron and Nash. Why is it surprising? These were players looking to get shots for teammates first, Jordan and Kobe players looking to shoot themselves.

[Round Mound]

:facepalm: :no:

[Manny98]

Is there any evidence to support the claim that MJ is the great passer?

The MJ numbers come from when MJ retired in most cases. In Oakley's case it was after he was traded. Hell, let's do another one, the player who came back in that trade:

Cartwright in NY 88': 54%
Cartwright in CHI 89': 48%

So the guy leaving MJ became more efficient and the guy joining MJ became much less efficient.

He averaged less turnovers doe :oldlol:

[PeroAntic]

Come on lets not get carried away. Jordan is the better overall player, but Lebron is definitely the better passer. its pretty much the one thing he has on Jordan.

[nayte]

Let's go with Jordan was a good passer for a scorer and LeBron was a good scorer for a passer.

[scuzzy]

Let's go with Jordan was a good passer for a scorer and LeBron was a good scorer for a passer.
:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

The rants earlier in this thread are amusing. The same methodology applied to 3 players and not a single word about the third player because Nash showing the same exact trend as LeBron doesn't rattle anyone.


He averaged less turnovers doe :oldlol:

:lol

[ImKobe]

Let's go with Jordan was a good passer for a scorer and LeBron was a good scorer for a passer.

Jordan was a GREAT passer for a scorer. 8.4 ast to 2.5 TO for a title run(more apg, better AST-TO ratio than Lebron in any of his title runs), averaged 11.4 APG in the 1991 Finals with three 30/10 games (1-2 points/assists in two other games from 30/10 as well). He's probably the least turnover-prone high-usage player in league history.

[scuzzy]

Jordan was a GREAT passer for a scorer. 8.4 ast to 2.5 TO for a title run(more apg, better AST-TO ratio than Lebron in any of his title runs), averaged 11.4 APG in the 1991 Finals with three 30/10 games (1-2 points/assists in two other games from 30/10 as well). He's probably the least turnover-prone high-usage player in league history.
Nope, he wasn't ever recognized as a great passer. Cherry picking single game career highs won't change that

For anyone who grew up watching MJ like myself he was universally known by all as a ball hog specifically in the first half of his career and extremely high usage player

That's a fact

AST:TO tell nothing. It doesn't differentiate between passing turnovers and every other type of turnover.

[ImKobe]

Nope, he wasn't ever recognized as a great passer. Cherry picking single game career highs won't change that

For anyone who grew up watching MJ like myself he was universally known by all as a ball hog specifically in the first half of his career and extremely high usage player

That's a fact

AST:TO tell nothing. It doesn't differentiate between passing turnovers and every other type of turnover.

I gave you an entire championship run. Jordan was a GREAT passer, his assist numbers obviously suffer due to Pippen & the triangle and him becoming more of an off-ball player. Jordan was a more versatile offensive player than Lebron, it's fine to admit that. The fact that Jordan could average over 31 ppg and over 8 assists with just 2.5 turnovers is insane. When Lebron averaged 30 for the 2012 title run, he had just 5.6 assists and 3.5 turnovers a game. In the other two runs, he averaged ~26 ppg with 6.6 and 7.6 assists and 3+ turnovers a game. Jordan averaged just 2.4 turnovers a game from 90-98 RS with 2.7 in the Playoffs, didn't come close to 3 turnovers a game in 5 out of 6 title runs.

[RRR3]

If you read the backpicks player analysis, he says Jordan wasn’t even as good of a passer as Kobe despite the assists totals in that title run and in his brief time as PG. If you read his profiles on Kobe and MJ he makes it clear why he says Kobe was a better passer.

[Bronbron23]

You obviously did not watch back then. Pippen missed about half of 98'. During that time Kerr shot 40%. With Pippen he shot 50%. Somehow you are giving the credit to 45% to MJ when Kerr got there because of his improvement with Pippen.

What are the common themes between Pippen, LeBron, and Nash? They are facilitators who were pass first.



That's because 49% is the same as 49%. :facepalm





That is it? Paxson spent almost his entire career with MJ, outside of his first two years, and his final year when he was a 3/1/1 player who played only 27 games.

Even your star example is shaky. Paxson shot 51% in his last year in SA. He was 47% in Chicago but MJ missed 65 games. The next year he was 49%. That is going across years but your example is poor.

Paxson's improvement "coincided" with Pippen taking on a bigger playmaking role (with Jordan he was 49% two years in a row in 88' and 89') in 90' and 91'. Pippen became the primary playmaker in 91'. Guess what Paxson's career best shooting year was?

Pippen was the LeBron, Nash for the Bulls, not MJ. You won't find that trend with MJ. You will with Pippen (in Chicago and in Portland), just to a smaller degree than LeBron and Nash. Why is it surprising? These were players looking to get shots for teammates first, Jordan and Kobe players looking to shoot themselves.

Well i only looked up pip, grant, pax and kerr so im not sure about the others. From what i can see though theres really not much difference between the 2. Some of their players stay the same when they leave, some get better, some get worse and some go up and down after. theres other factors that could lead to some of this also like players being young and entering their prime or players being in there prime and getring older.

[RRR3]

MJ was a better 3point shooter than Steph.

MJ was a better defender than Bill Russell.

MJ was a better rebounder than Rodman.

[jstern]

If you read the backpicks player analysis, he says Jordan wasn’t even as good of a passer as Kobe despite the assists totals in that title run and in his brief time as PG. If you read his profiles on Kobe and MJ he makes it clear why he says Kobe was a better passer.

Kobe was a great passer. Remember when he played the point in 2013 for like 3 of games? He was getting like 14 assists per game on close to 60% shooting. Small sample size, but that version of Kobe seemed Goat like.

Kobe > Jordan > Lebron.

[RRR3]

Kobe was a great passer. Remember when he played the point in 2013 for like 3 of games? He was getting like 14 assists per game on close to 60% shooting. Small sample size, but that version of Kobe seemed Goat like.

Kobe > Jordan > Lebron.
Interesting take, OP.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was a better 3point shooter than Steph.

MJ was a better defender than Bill Russell.

MJ was a better rebounder than Rodman.

Don't forget the thread a few years ago here where several MJ stans were saying MJ>KAJ in post dominance too.


For anyone who grew up watching MJ like myself he was universally known by all as a ball hog specifically in the first half of his career and extremely high usage player

Which is why they had to take the ball out of his hands through the triangle and Pippen. Jordan wasn't going to foster sufficient ball movement to win.


From what i can see though theres really not much difference between the 2. Some of their players stay the same when they leave, some get better

It is all opinion but that is a strange conclusion to reach. The declines for the LeBron, Nash players were huge drop-offs too. We aren't talking going from 49% to 47%.


Interesting take, OP.

:D

[tpols]

Kobe was a great passer. Remember when he played the point in 2013 for like 3 of games? He was getting like 14 assists per game on close to 60% shooting. Small sample size, but that version of Kobe seemed Goat like.

Kobe > Jordan > Lebron.

MagicBe put up his career high 17 dimes against lebron too. :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAa2JkDP3DU

[Bronbron23]

Let's go with Jordan was a good passer for a scorer and LeBron was a good scorer for a passer.

This is probably the most reasonable answer

[ImKobe]

MJ was a better 3point shooter than Steph.

MJ was a better defender than Bill Russell.

MJ was a better rebounder than Rodman.

No one's said those things, and Lebron isn't the greatest passer ever, nor is he even close to it.

[RRR3]

No one's said those things, and Lebron isn't the greatest passer ever, nor is he even close to it.
Meltdown.

[tpols]

No one's said those things, and Lebron isn't the greatest passer ever, nor is he even close to it.

seriously that was such a weak analogy...

[RRR3]

It’s not an analogy it’s making fun of Jordan’s stans need for him to be the best at everything.

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron James is a better passer and distributor than Jordan. Hes a top 10 all time passer. Magic rondo cp3 Stockton and bird are really the only guys over him.

[FKAri]

Let's go with Jordan was a good passer for a scorer and LeBron was a good scorer for a passer.

Let's go with Jordan was a great passer for a scorer and LeBron was a great scorer for a passer.

[Roundball_Rock]

It’s not an analogy it’s making fun of Jordan’s stans need for him to be the best at everything.

It isn't complicated but stuff sails over people's heads here too often.

[jstern]

MagicBe put up his career high 17 dimes against lebron too. :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAa2JkDP3DU

It wasn't dribble, dribble, dribble, kill time pass. It was a display of skills, skills, make things happen, pass.

[Walk on Water]

MJ was a better 3point shooter than Steph.

MJ was a better defender than Bill Russell.

MJ was a better rebounder than Rodman.


The way you say it is like you think the notion MJ is a better passer is a joke.

Lebron is a good full court passer and can dish it out to someone who is use open. But Jordan made unbelievable passes like he’d pass it on the way down from a jump.

[Walk on Water]

Jordan's a better batter than Barry Bonds.....


There's no poll that says that. ESPN took a poll from fans and most fans think Jordan is a better passer, including me. Lebron throws better quarterback passes but that's not the game. The other assists he gets are mostly from shooters in the corners that are wide open.

[Smook A.]

MJ was an underrated passer but LeBron's still the better passer

[Overdrive]

The way you say it is like you think the notion MJ is a better passer is a joke.

Lebron is a good full court passer and can dish it out to someone who is use open. But Jordan made unbelievable passes like he’d pass it on the way down from a jump.

That's the thing, jumping and coming down, because of well played defense and then passing isn't a good pass. It's an emergency plan.
Jordan was a selective passer, who aside from perimeter swings only passed as his 3rd or 4th option. Driving and shooting was his main goal no matter how the offense was run.

Lebron is always up to pass. Scoring and passing have equal opportunities starting the play. Sometimes it's to his own detriment when he passes to lesser players in high pressure situation, because the had a better look, but that changed over the past few years.

[Manny98]

Jordan has tunnel vision, he's always looking to score first and pass second whilst Lebron is looking for the best play possible that's the difference between the two

Jordans court vision and ability to find his teammates isn't even in the same dimension as Lebron. LeBron arguably has the greatest court vision ever, being 6'8 and being able to see passes that smaller players cannot.

Below is a good example showing the tunnel vision I was talking about with MJ


https://youtu.be/Za-1HILs-6U

[Turbo Slayer]

Jordan has tunnel vision, he's always looking to score first and pass second whilst Lebron is looking for the best play possible that's the difference between the two

Jordans court vision and ability to find his teammates isn't even in the same dimension as Lebron. LeBron arguably has the greatest court vision ever, being 6'8 and being able to see passes that smaller players cannot.

Below is a good example showing the tunnel vision I was talking about with MJ


https://youtu.be/Za-1HILs-6U My god... LeBron is definitely not the greatest passer ever. I swear... :facepalm

Magic, Stockton, Nash, Kidd, and maybe Paul are ahead of LeBron as a passer. Id!ot.

[Manny98]

Stockton is definitely not a better passer than Lebron lol

Averaging loads of assists doesn't make you a goat passer

Stockton was just incredibly unselfish to almost a fault

He doesn't supercharge entire offenses like Lebron,Nash and Magic do

[Whoah10115]

Somebody really made that video...

[Turbo Slayer]

Stockton is definitely not a better passer than Lebron lol

Averaging loads of assists doesn't make you a goat passer

Stockton was just incredibly unselfish to almost a fault

He doesn't supercharge entire offenses like Lebron,Nash and Magic do

Assist to turnover ratio is not exactly a reliable stat but it is good in general.

Stockton- 3.72

LeBron- 2.11

We talking strictly as a passer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAPu4nLzDbQ

[Manny98]

Assist to turnover ratio is not exactly a reliable stat but it is good in general.

Stockton- 3.72

LeBron- 2.11

We talking strictly as a passer.
Stockton doesn't take nearly as much riskier passes as Lebron does tho.

He always played it safe with his shot selection and his passes that's why his teams never had top tier offenses

Stockton didn't posses the ability to be aggressive and carve up defenses to create more open looks for his teammates and that limits his overall ceiling as a playmaker

[Turbo Slayer]

Stockton doesn't take nearly as much riskier passes as Lebron does tho.

He always played it safe with his shot selection and his passes that's why his teams never had top tier offenses

Stockton didn't posses the ability to be aggressive and carve up defenses to create more open looks for his teammates and that limits his overall ceiling as a playmaker I can get behind that (mostly). :cheers: Still you are a dumba$$ for saying LeBron is the greatest passer ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

There's no poll that says that.

If they asked who the better 3 point shooter is between MJ and LeBron who do you think would win the poll?

[Turbo Slayer]

If they asked who the better 3 point shooter is between MJ and LeBron who do you think would win the poll? Here? Especially ISH? MJ would win the poll b/c people are stup!d.

[Axe]

Neither 'cuz dwyane wade is the answer.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan has tunnel vision, he's always looking to score first and pass second whilst Lebron is looking for the best play possible that's the difference between the two

But is this discussion about that, though? The discussion is about the better passer is, not who looks to pass first or second. I'm on the fence about this one and I believe the two are very close. We saw enough from Mj through his career that showed me that he was an excellent passer. Again, how many shooting guards in NBA history averaged more assists? And how many would average more assists in a triangle-offense?

And how is it that we conveniently overlook how many offensive weapons and shooters Mj played with as opposed to Lebron? That has to count for something. You need weapons, particular shooters, when you draw a double-team and do kick outs. It really helps that you can have a variety of players who can shoot 40%+ from 3 point range or who can score at a higher rate.


Stockton is definitely not a better passer than Lebron lol

I think this is a far more ridiculous assertion than those who say Mj > Lebron where it comes to passing.

[HoopsNY]

If they asked who the better 3 point shooter is between MJ and LeBron who do you think would win the poll?

Well let's see, Lebron shoots about 34.5% and Mj just under 33%. In the playoffs they both shoot 33% and in the finals Mj shoots nearly 37% whereas LeBron shoots about 34.5%.

So why would it be criminal for people to choose Mj? In this area, they're about even.

[sdot_thadon]

Well let's see, Lebron shoots about 34.5% and Mj just under 33%. In the playoffs they both shoot 33% and in the finals Mj shoots nearly 37% whereas LeBron shoots about 34.5%.

So why would it be criminal for people to choose Mj? In this area, they're about even.

This is an entirely different debate but yeah it's borderline criminal bro. Lebron had a peak season over 40% on a decent volume for the time period. Lebron has always shot a higher volume on this "similar" 3pt%. Mj has had some nice shooting playoff runs in the 1st 3peat indeed. But again never on the volume Lebron shoots them at. MJ's highest volume 3pt shooting postseason run is .1 attempt higher than Lebron's lowest of his career. And of course the eye test says routine shots Lebron takes from 3 are desperation shots for Mj. C'mon man you seem like a good poster I know you're not doing this bs.


There's no poll that says that. ESPN took a poll from fans and most fans think Jordan is a better passer, including me. Lebron throws better quarterback passes but that's not the game. The other assists he gets are mostly from shooters in the corners that are wide open.
Same as 3 point shooting Lebron has a way more sophisticated bag of passes and passing skills. More volume. And better numbers. Nothing more really needs to be said.

[HoopsNY]

This is an entirely different debate but yeah it's borderline criminal bro. Lebron had a peak season over 40% on a decent volume for the time period. Lebron has always shot a higher volume on this "similar" 3pt%. Mj has had some nice shooting playoff runs in the 1st 3peat indeed. But again never on the volume Lebron shoots them at. MJ's highest volume 3pt shooting postseason run is .1 attempt higher than Lebron's lowest of his career. And of course the eye test says routine shots Lebron takes from 3 are desperation shots for Mj. C'mon man you seem like a good poster I know you're not doing this bs.

No I get you bro. And there is certainly evidence to support what you're saying. However, the reason I don't think it's as criminal as some may feel, including yourself, is because the context doesn't fit the narrative.

In the case of high volume, then MJ had a season where he shot 3.0 three point attempts a game and shot nearly 38%. Lebron peaked over 40% (on 3.3 attempts), so the numbers aren't that different. If hand-checking is a thing in LeBron's time where he shoots 40%+, does he still shoot the same %?

Also, Jordan peaked at nearly 43% in 1995-96. Now again, the context should fit the narrative. So in this case, it is known that the NBA shortened the 3 pt line. As a result, the league went up by an average of 2-3% from deep. If the line isn't moved up, what's Jordan shooting, 40-41%?

Lastly, I think 80s and 90s players deserve more credit for their years for solid 3 pt shooting. The league didn't institute it until the 1979-80 season. As a result, players barely shot it as it was seen as a low percentage shot. Even shooting a three that was not drawn as a play could get you benched in those days. The result? Piss poor three point shooting. Consider this:

Jordan's first 5 years in the league: 20.2% from deep
Bird's first 5 years in the league: 30.8% from deep
Magic's first 8 years in the league: 19.2% from deep

But something happens thereafter with these players:

Jordan's next 8 seasons: 35.9%
Bird's next 8 seasons: 39.8%
Magic's next 4 seasons: 34.6%

What happened that these players had such drastic increases in their 3 point percentage? The reason I mention this is not to gloat over their numbers, but I do believe era has a lot to do with it. In an era that relies so much more on the 3 point shot, I do think that a player like Mj (as well as Bird and Magic), would shoot the 3 more and shoot better than they did in the 80s and 90s. For one, MJ's best 3 point shooting years come in the years where he has his highest volumes.

This doesn't mean that Mj is by default a better three point shooter than LeBron, but it does offer a slightly different perspective.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan shot well from three only when the line was shortened.

Jordan's 3 point % (1995-1997): 40.4%
Jordan's 3 point % (1998): 23.8%

Plus we can't take Jordan's percentages at face volume compared to a modern player. His volume was so low he was able to cherry pick good opportunities.

[RogueBorg]

Jordan shot well from three only when the line was shortened.

Jordan's 3 point % (1995-1997): 40.4%
Jordan's 3 point % (1998): 23.8%

Plus we can't take Jordan's percentages at face volume compared to a modern player. His volume was so low he was able to cherry pick good opportunities.

Living rent-free

[HoopsNY]

Jordan shot well from three only when the line was shortened.

Jordan's 3 point % (1995-1997): 40.4%
Jordan's 3 point % (1998): 23.8%

Plus we can't take Jordan's percentages at face volume compared to a modern player. His volume was so low he was able to cherry pick good opportunities.

That's one way of looking at it. Once again you're reaching to discredit Mj. So basically, had the league not shortened the line and he maintained high volume, then he would have shot 24%? Sorry, I'm not buying that, especially when he shot over 35% in 1992-93 alone.

Jordan's highest years in terms of volume were:

1989-90: 245 attempts (37.6%)
1992-93: 230 attempts (35.2%)
1995-96: 260 attempts (42.7%)
1996-97: 297 attempts (37.4%)

So ironically, his highest % years coincide with his highest volumes.

[ImKobe]

Jordan shot well from three only when the line was shortened.

Jordan's 3 point % (1995-1997): 40.4%
Jordan's 3 point % (1998): 23.8%

Plus we can't take Jordan's percentages at face volume compared to a modern player. His volume was so low he was able to cherry pick good opportunities.

False. The 3PT line was shortened from 94-97, he had some good seasons/Playoff runs with the normal 3PT line.

RS

89-90: 37.6%3PT 3.0 3PA
92-93: 35.2%3PT 2.9 3PA

Those are the only two seasons where he shot 3s at some volume (2+ game) with the normal 3PT line, he only took 1.5 3PA in 1998.

Playoffs

89-90: 32.0%3PT 3.1 3PA
90-91: 38.5%3PT 1.5 3PA
91-92: 38.6%3PT 2.0 3PA
92-93: 38.9%3PT 3.8 3PA
97-98: 30.2%3PT 2.0 3PA

Looks like he was decent almost every run when he did attempt at least a few threes per game on average in his prime, his 3PT numbers in that first three-peat are great for that era. Looks like he was a respectable 3-Point shooter when he did actually attempt them on a consistent basis. His overall 3PT% is obviously so low because he wasn't consistently shooting them, thus a bulk of them came from half court and from trying to beat the buzzer when the offense stalled, it's not like they ran plays for him to get open and shoot the 3. Obviously he took more of them when the line was shortened, since he was used to shooting long 2s anyway and was efficient at them.

[Roundball_Rock]

False. The 3PT line was shortened from 94-97

If you are going to use "false" use the correct years. :D It was shortened from the 95' to 97' seasons.

You are cherry picking years. Jordan was a subpar 3 point shooter for his career. Even your cherry picked years were at half the volume LeBron shot better percentages at. This season LeBron shot 35% on 6.4 attempts a game (he had a season at 41% if you want to cherry pick)--Jordan could not come close to this if he took 6.4 attempts a game.


Those are the only two seasons where he shot 3s at some volume (2+ game)

He didn't shoot threes because he knew he couldn't make them. If he could, he would have taken more.

[ImKobe]

If you are going to use "false" use the correct years. :D It was shortened from the 95' to 97' seasons.

You are cherry picking years. Jordan was a subpar 3 point shooter for his career. Even your cherry picked years were at half the volume LeBron shot better percentages at. This season LeBron shot 35% on 6.4 attempts a game (he had a season at 41% if you want to cherry pick)--Jordan could not come close to this if he took 6.4 attempts a game.



He didn't shoot threes because he knew he couldn't make them. If he could, he would have taken more.

It was shortened in 1994, obviously not during the 93-94 season. Not sure what you're trying to do here.

I didn't "cherry pick" years. I included those where he shot poorly. Of course I'm not going to include seasons where he took 0.5-1 attempt per game, those are meaningless. He was a good 3PT shooter when he actually shot them with volume, that's evidenced by the stats. Those two Regular Seasons are the only time he shot the three at some volume.

Lebron shoots them more due to the era he's in. He came into the league a very streaky shooter but he improved over time. Jordan would have been a good volume 3PT shooter as well if that's what he needed to add to his game.

You're just arguing hypotheticals at this point. Just admit that you were wrong when you said that he never shot well from the normal 3PT line and keep it moving.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ok, Jordan was an elite 3 point shooter. He just didn't feel like shooting 3's because it would be unfair for his competition. :bowdown:

Only Jordan gets this kind of idiotic credit for things he didn't do. LeBron is the more effective three point shooter at a much higher volume. That is a fact outside of the Jordan cult.

[3ball]

Lebron has a way more sophisticated bag of passes and passing skills. More volume.





Nonsense.. the video shows that MJ made the same fancy passes that lebron does, but not as often because he played off-guard.

But when MJ played a point guard role like bron, he averaged more assists than lebron ever has - 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard in 1989

And MJ is the only player ever that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at PG or bringing the ball up

[RogueBorg]

https://i.imgur.com/TSxXNpn.jpgwidth=500

[Turbo Slayer]

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.FIagdMGwN2DNvuSNGlgcKAHaHj&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

Whats up youngin'? Can't match my ring count.

11 Rings!

[ImKobe]

Ok, Jordan was an elite 3 point shooter. He just didn't feel like shooting 3's because it would be unfair for his competition. :bowdown:

Only Jordan gets this kind of idiotic credit for things he didn't do. LeBron is the more effective three point shooter at a much higher volume. That is a fact outside of the Jordan cult.

I called you out on blatantly lying about Jordan never shooting well from the normal 3-Point line. Now you're throwing hypotheticals at my way and making up shit since you have nothing to refute the actual facts with. No one's saying he would have been elite, but the stats do show us that he was a decent 3-Point shooter when he attempted that shot on a consistent basis in those seasons. He probably would have been a similar 3PT shooter as Lebron is right now. He didn't shoot the 3 much because he didn't need to, we're talking different eras here. Teams just rarely shot them. We do know that he was one of the GOAT mid-range shooters and a much better FT shooter than Lebron, so saying that he wouldn't be able to adapt to the new era/rules is just being dishonest.

[RogueBorg]

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.FIagdMGwN2DNvuSNGlgcKAHaHj&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

Whats up youngin'? Can't match my ring count ay

11 Rings!

The meme was for a certain individual with MJ on the brain.

[3ball]

You guys are fools for not thinking MJ would be a among the best 3-point shooters in the game today, if not the best

[Whoah10115]

I think you all should stop responding to him. Because he will argue anything to make his point -which he doesn't have- and at this point he's doubling down every single post. Changes the topic, picks specific seasons, accuses you of cherry picking 5 year stretches, then says "I wasn't talking about you", when he's caught.

It's literally giving reason to leave the board. He's not talking about anything, just incessantly patronizing.

[1987_Lakers]

You guys are fools for not thinking MJ would be a among the best 3-point shooters in the game today, if not the best

Imagine actually believing this. :roll:

[Whoah10115]

Let 3ball be 3ball...he's clearly less annoying than the other guy, because he makes people laugh.

[3ball]

Imagine actually believing this. :roll:

The sign of a good shooter is someone that shooters BETTER with higher volume, as opposed to lower

and MJ always shot well at 3+ attempts

He would've shot even better at 10+ attempts where he could get in a rhythm like today's good shooters

From 85-93', he shot 40% in games where he took 4+ attempts... His form was literally goat

And he's the goat volume shooter.. he'd have goat volume and practice on threes just like he did twos

[1987_Lakers]

The sign of a good shooter is someone that shooters BETTER with higher volume, as opposed to lower

and MJ always shot well at 3+ attempts

He would've shot even better at 10+ attempts where he could get in a rhythm like today's good shooters

From 85-93', he shot 40% in games where he took 4+ attempts... His form was literally goat

And he's the goat volume shooter


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akYsCU8bWNA

Shot under 30% from three throughout his career (not including the short 3 point line) and yet you say he would probably be the best 3 point shooter in the league today over guys like Curry & Klay. :roll:

[Soundwave]

There's nothing really in Jordan's shooting form that to me suggests he couldn't have been a great 3 point shooter, it just wasn't considered a great shot to rely heavily on in the 80s/90s.

But shooting form and elevation on his jumpers was a work of art, if the league was oriented around 3 point shooting back then, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have developed into a great 3 point shooter.

Taking yourself from being an average defender to DPOY is a far bigger leap and he was willing to put in the work to do that, bumping 3 point shooting up a bit wouldn't have been some big deal.

As is it's been pointed out in games where he did shoot a fair number of 3 point attempts his percentage is quite high.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think you all should stop responding to him. Because he will argue anything to make his point -which he doesn't have- and at this point he's doubling down every single post. Changes the topic, picks specific seasons, accuses you of cherry picking 5 year stretches, then says "I wasn't talking about you", when he's caught.

It's literally giving reason to leave the board. He's not talking about anything, just incessantly patronizing.

If you're talking about 'Rockball', this is spot on.

Nobody sane sits here 24/7, whining about a player. The documentary reduced him into a 2 bit-troll.

[1987_Lakers]

As is it's been pointed out in games where he did shoot a fair number of 3 point attempts his percentage is quite high.

37.6% & 35.2%, that is not quite high. That is pretty average.

LeBron had seasons where he shot 40.6% & 38% from 3. Nobody here considers him an elite 3 point shooter in today's league. You are a dumbass if you really think MJ would be an elite 3 point shooter today. :oldlol:

[hateraid]

There's nothing really in Jordan's shooting form that to me suggests he couldn't have been a great 3 point shooter, it just wasn't considered a great shot to rely heavily on in the 80s/90s.

But shooting form and elevation on his jumpers was a work of art, if the league was oriented around 3 point shooting back then, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have developed into a great 3 point shooter.

Taking yourself from being an average defender to DPOY is a far bigger leap and he was willing to put in the work to do that, bumping 3 point shooting up a bit wouldn't have been some big deal.

As is it's been pointed out in games where he did shoot a fair number of 3 point attempts his percentage is quite high.

Classic he would be great if he chose to arguement.

He didn't have consistent range. Period. I played HS basketball in the early nineties. A 3 pt shot was a valued weapon for any gaurd.

I'm not devaluing Jordan's game here. He clearly was the best scorer of his time. He just wasn't a reliable 3 point shooter

[Roundball_Rock]

Imagine actually believing this.

I bet most MJ stans do. It is a cult. Jordan would be the best shot blocker too if he felt like it. :oldlol:


I called you out on blatantly lying about Jordan never shooting well from the normal 3-Point line.

What is his career percentage from the normal 3 point line? The ignorance of MJ stans is always amazing. The only fan base that knows less about the subject than other people do.

[Soundwave]

Classic he would be great if he chose to arguement.

He didn't have consistent range. Period. I played HS basketball in the early nineties. A 3 pt shot was a valued weapon for any gaurd.

I'm not devaluing Jordan's game here. He clearly was the best scorer of his time. He just wasn't a reliable 3 point shooter

Actually even this is not really true.

The 3 point line was a completely new addition to the sport in the 80s, so players growing up prior to that didn't really work on that shot period as there was no real incentive to do so.

Once the 3 pt line had been around for a few years, Jordan's 3 point % in the prime of his career is not bad .. he has a good 7 seasons there from 89-90 onwards where he was about a 33-34% shooter from the 3 point line. That's not bad.

If you played high school basketball in the 90s you'll also know that coaches then would not approve of shot jacking from 3 point range that is common now.

A 3 was supposed to be a shot you took after 3-4 passes and if the D collapsed then you took it to punish them, otherwise you were taught quite often to take a dribble or two in for an easier shot.

[1987_Lakers]

Actually even this is not really true.

The 3 point line was a completely new addition to the sport in the 80s, so players growing up prior to that didn't really work on that shot period as there was no real incentive to do so.

Once the 3 pt line had been around for a few years, Jordan's 3 point % in the prime of his career is not bad .. he has a good 7 seasons there from 89-90 onwards where he was about a 33-34% shooter from the 3 point line. That's not bad.

No excuses, guys like Larry Bird, Danny Ainge, Craig Hodges, Dale Ellis, & Mark Price were shooting above 40% from 3 in the 80's.

In the early 90's you had guys like Reggie Miller, Mullin, Petrovic, Terry Porter, Hornacek, Dennis Scott etc all have season shooting above 40%.

It was a new shot, but there were plenty of guys who were great at it. What's MJ's excuse?

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akYsCU8bWNA

Shot under 30% from three throughout his career (not including the short 3 point line) and yet you say he would probably be the best 3 point shooter in the league today over guys like Curry & Klay. :roll:

He shot 23% in 1998 because players re-adjusted to the old line again

And he decided not to take the shot now that the line was moved back - only 1 attempt in 98'.. You should be aware that mj only took bailout-threes - he attempted less than 1.5 threes every year except the shortened line years and 90/93... That's the main reason for his low percentages in the years where he took low volume - he has a 12 minute video of pure bailout threes - does lebron take a lot of bailouts and have a long video of them?

Btw, , threes in prior eras were random, while today's are the entire objective.. mj would shoot better if its the objective

[Roundball_Rock]

No excuses, guys like Larry Bird, Danny Ainge, Craig Hodges, Dale Ellis, & Mark Price were shooting above 40% from 3 in the 80's.

In the early 90's you had guys like Reggie Miller, Mullin, Petrovic, Terry Porter, Hornacek, Dennis Scott etc all have season shooting above 40%.

It was a new shot, but there were plenty of guys who were great at it. What's MJ's excuse?

Even his own teammates. Kerr, Armstrong, Hodges were all elite three point shooters. Paxson became a good one too towards the end of his career.


He shot 23% in 1998 because players re-adjusted to the old line again

This is BS. The legitimately good three point shooters remained good. What the change did was expose the poor three point shooters, like MJ, who relied on the shorter line.

[rawimpact]

Anyone remember when 3ball thought Horace Grant won 6 rings alongside Jordan? And this guy is a real jordan/90s bulls fan?

[sdot_thadon]

No I get you bro. And there is certainly evidence to support what you're saying. However, the reason I don't think it's as criminal as some may feel, including yourself, is because the context doesn't fit the narrative.

In the case of high volume, then MJ had a season where he shot 3.0 three point attempts a game and shot nearly 38%. Lebron peaked over 40% (on 3.3 attempts), so the numbers aren't that different. If hand-checking is a thing in LeBron's time where he shoots 40%+, does he still shoot the same %?

Also, Jordan peaked at nearly 43% in 1995-96. Now again, the context should fit the narrative. So in this case, it is known that the NBA shortened the 3 pt line. As a result, the league went up by an average of 2-3% from deep. If the line isn't moved up, what's Jordan shooting, 40-41%?

Lastly, I think 80s and 90s players deserve more credit for their years for solid 3 pt shooting. The league didn't institute it until the 1979-80 season. As a result, players barely shot it as it was seen as a low percentage shot. Even shooting a three that was not drawn as a play could get you benched in those days. The result? Piss poor three point shooting. Consider this:

Jordan's first 5 years in the league: 20.2% from deep
Bird's first 5 years in the league: 30.8% from deep
Magic's first 8 years in the league: 19.2% from deep

But something happens thereafter with these players:

Jordan's next 8 seasons: 35.9%
Bird's next 8 seasons: 39.8%
Magic's next 4 seasons: 34.6%

What happened that these players had such drastic increases in their 3 point percentage? The reason I mention this is not to gloat over their numbers, but I do believe era has a lot to do with it. In an era that relies so much more on the 3 point shot, I do think that a player like Mj (as well as Bird and Magic), would shoot the 3 more and shoot better than they did in the 80s and 90s. For one, MJ's best 3 point shooting years come in the years where he has his highest volumes.

This doesn't mean that Mj is by default a better three point shooter than LeBron, but it does offer a slightly different perspective.

That's all understandable but it requires the "if" argument in order to work. I'd rather stick to what the guys actually did, because we don't afford "if" arguments to other guys. It's perfectly possible Mj could have been a better shooter, but the real record of the story is he wasn't. Also the next years of his career you reference also include 2 complete seasons of a shorter 3pt line, which coincidently include career best shooting numbers. I personally don't even look at those numbers when comparing to others who never had that luxury. And again the numbers are just part of it. When i see a guy routinely take step back 3's from way beyond the arc and long bombs we see Lebron make almost every other game now, it doesn't feel fair to compare him as a 3pt shooter to a guy like Mj.

[3ball]

No excuses, guys like Larry Bird, Danny Ainge, Craig Hodges, Dale Ellis, & Mark Price were shooting above 40% from 3 in the 80's.

In the early 90's you had guys like Reggie Miller, Mullin, Petrovic, Terry Porter, Hornacek, Dennis Scott etc all have season shooting above 40%.

It was a new shot, but there were plenty of guys who were great at it. What's MJ's excuse?

Playoffs

80-88' Bird........ 34.9% on 1.4 attempts
85-93' Jordan... 35.2% on 2.1 attempts


So ur wrong

[sdot_thadon]

Nonsense.. the video shows that MJ made the same fancy passes that lebron does, but not as often because he played off-guard.

But when MJ played a point guard role like bron, he averaged more assists than lebron ever has - 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard in 1989

And MJ is the only player ever that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at PG or bringing the ball up

We watch Lebron night in and night out for the better part of 17 years with most of his games available somewhere online at this point. Lebron is a pass 1st player, his volume as a passer dwarfs MJ's just as MJ's volume as a scorer dwarfs Lebron's. Facts of life buddy. Lebron does more with the ball as a passer than Mj did. Is this even debatable?

[3ball]

This is BS. The legitimately good three point shooters remained good. What the change did was expose the poor three point shooters, like MJ, who relied on the shorter line.



Your explanation is false because 98' was an anomaly - he was mostly a 32% shooter from the regular line.. but unfortunately, you never played, so you can't comprehend the explanation i gave, even though it explains the anomalous nature of 98'

Furthermore, mj attempted less than 1.5 threes every year except the shortened line years and 90/93... he took mostly random, bailout threes - that's the main reason for his low percentages in the years where he took low volume... he has a 12 minute video of pure bailout threes - does lebron take a lot of bailouts and have a long video of them?

Btw, threes in prior eras were random, while today's are the entire objective.. mj would shoot better if its the objective

[Roundball_Rock]

Your explanation is false because 98' was an anomaly - he was mostly a 32% shooter from the regular line..

He shot 28.8% from the real line; 40.4% from the short line.


Playoffs

80-88' Bird........ 34.9% on 1.4 attempts
85-93' Jordan... 35.2% on 2.1 attempts

Jordan>Bird as a 3 point shooter now? :roll:


That's all understandable but it requires the "if" argument in order to work. I'd rather stick to what the guys actually did, because we don't afford "if" arguments to other guys.

That is the key point. We don't give credit to any other legend for things they never did.

[1987_Lakers]

Playoffs

80-88' Bird........ 34.9% on 1.4 attempts
85-93' Jordan... 35.2% on 2.1 attempts


So ur wrong

I'm not wrong. Bird shot 41% from 3 in his prime from '85-'88, he shot 40% or better in all of those seasons. MJ never even came close to those numbers with the original 3 point shot.

[ImKobe]

Playoffs

80-88' Bird........ 34.9% on 1.4 attempts
85-93' Jordan... 35.2% on 2.1 attempts


So ur wrong

It's actually 35.3% for Bird from 80-88. Nevertheless, he wasn't as elite of a 3-Point shooter as some make him out to be. He did peak higher as a 3-Point shooter in the late 80s though with 4 straight seasons of shooting above 40% from that distance. He stopped shooting them for a while after his rookie season for whatever reason. They are close in the Playoffs though.

It's just laughable to think that Jordan wouldn't have been a better 3-Point shooter in an era where that shot is way more valued, considering how much he was able to improve as a mid-range scorer early in his career.


I'm not wrong. Bird shot 41% from 3 in his prime from '85-'88, he shot 40% or better in all of those seasons. MJ never even came close to those numbers with the original 3 point shot.

He shot 37.6% from 3 on 3.1 attempts a game in '90. 38+% for 3 straight title runs 91-93. Not far off.

[3ball]

I'm not wrong. Bird shot 41% from 3 in his prime from '85-'88, he shot 40% or better in all of those seasons. MJ never even came close to those numbers with the original 3 point shot.

Sure but threes were a part of Bird's game.. they weren't a part of Jordan's..

Bird was focusing on them even in that era, but the team offensive strategy wasn't caught up and didn't allow him to take high volume.

That's what I'm saying about Jordan from 85-93' - he matched the efficiency of 80-88' Bird without trying, while Bird started trying halfway through the period.

On a separate note, MJ's threes were random, while today's threes arw the objective of the possession.. MJ would shoot better in a format where 3-pointers are the objective, like a drill.. today's drive-and-kick format is essentially a drill to see who can make the most threes

[Roundball_Rock]

Are MJ stans really saying MJ and Bird were comparable three point shooters? :facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

Sure but threes were a part of Bird's game.. they weren't a part of Jordan's..

Bird was focusing on them even in that era, but the team offensive strategy wasn't caught up and didn't allow him to take high volume.

That's what I'm saying about Jordan from 85-93' - he matched the efficiency of 80-88' Bird without trying, while Bird started trying halfway through the period.

On a separate note, MJ's threes were random, while today's threes arw the objective of the possession.. MJ would shoot better in a format where 3-pointers are the objective, like a drill.. today's drive-and-kick format is essentially a drill to see who can make the most threes

He sure didn't match his efficiency when they went head to head. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

He sure didn't match his efficiency when they went head to head. :oldlol:

:lol

Fatal9 had a long thread on that back in the day.

[1987_Lakers]

Are MJ stans really saying MJ and Bird were comparable three point shooters? :facepalm

It's funny as hell. Not only did Bird consistency shoot 40%, but he also won 3 straight three point shootouts from '86-'88. Imagine MJ doing something like that.

When MJ participated, he finished with 5 points, it's still the worst performance ever in a 3 point contest I believe.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's funny as hell. Not only did Bird consistency shoot 40%, but he also won 3 straight three point shootouts from '86-'88. Imagine MJ doing something like that.

When MJ participated, he finished with 5 points, it's still the worst performance ever in a 3 point contest I believe.

:lol exactly.

They also give Jordan credit for 1) things he never did 2) improvements he "would have" made. Why doesn't that logic apply to Bird? He shot well at 3's without practicing them (as Bill Simmons noted). If he played today and practiced 3's every day of his career, how much better would he be?

Bird is the one top 10 all-time guy whose career would benefit immensely directly from 3's. You could argue a guy like Kareem, Wilt, Shaq would feast as they would either be singled covered and crush or be doubled and dish out to a wide open shooter for 3 but these are indirect effects. Bird directly would be taking 10-12 threes himself. What would his PPG be? How much more dominant? Are we sure Bird isn't the real GOAT under this imaginary scenario? :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

That's all understandable but it requires the "if" argument in order to work. I'd rather stick to what the guys actually did, because we don't afford "if" arguments to other guys.

You have to award the "if" in terms of context. Context matters; if it didn't, then we would have to take Mj's 1995-97 3 point numbers at face value. But we can't do that. His numbers during that stretch are inflated. If there is another situation where context matters, then you do the same thing.


It's perfectly possible Mj could have been a better shooter, but the real record of the story is he wasn't. Also the next years of his career you reference also include 2 complete seasons of a shorter 3pt line, which coincidently include career best shooting numbers.

Which is why I say he wasn't a great three point shooter, nor should he be considered as one. But to dismiss his improvement over time is problematic, especially when between 1988-93, Mj shot 34.3%. That includes two years where he shot nearly 38% and 35%. Context matters in this regard, and the context is that the three point line was newly introduced. This is why Magic and Bird's numbers initially are low as well.

I don't believe Mj would have been a 40-45% 3 pt shooter in today's game, but 35-36% is certainly reasonable. There is no question in my mind that he would have shot reasonably well in this era, especially given his numbers once he had higher volume.

And this idea that his 24% in 1997-98 is more indicative of his 3 point shooting ability as opposed to his 34.3% between 1989-93 is rather, odd.

Again, if the line isn't shortened, then what does Mj shoot between 1995-97? I say 37-40%. If you tell me low 20s, then that just doesn't make sense.