How long until Kawhi Leonard passes up Dwyane Wade of all-time greats?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2015-16 Kawhi = 2004/2005 Wade
2016-17 Kawhi = 2008/09 Wade
2019 Playoff Kawhi = 2006 playoff Wade
2013-14 Kawhi finals = Wade 2012/13 finals

So basically, we are looking at one more dominant finals MVP run from Kawhi and he has already clearly passed up Wade on the all time great list?

[LoneyROY7]

I believe ESPN already had him ranked above Wade in their latest (albeit very questionable) list.

Kawhi will pass Wade at the end of the day regardless IMO, he has his sights set higher.

[Smook A.]

What Kawhi Leonard has done in the past 6 years has been nothing short of remarkable.

2x Champion
2x FMVP
2x DPOY
4x All-Star
3x All-NBA
5x All-Defensive

He just needs to get more superstar seasons under his belt to climb up the rankings. As of right now, including this season, he's only had 3 superstar seasons (2017, 2019, 2020) and didn't become a star until 2016. Wade was a superstar for like 10 years.

It's kinda the same thing with Giannis. He didn't become a superstar until 2017, and while he's already basically a 2x MVP with a very bright future still ahead of him, he's just not high up in the all-time rankings yet (sorry ESPN) above other all-timers.

That being said, I'm not ready to put Kawhi above Wade yet. He still needs to consistently play at the same high level he's been playing at for a couple more years

[FultzNationRISE]

Problem is Wade’s prime was so short, as he really leaned on his explosiveness due to lacking the outside jumper. By the 10-11 season he was visibly past his physical prime, and it only got worse from there.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What Kawhi Leonard has done in the past 6 years has been nothing short of remarkable.

2x Champion
2x FMVP
2x DPOY
4x All-Star
3x All-NBA
5x All-Defensive

He just needs to get more superstar seasons under his belt to climb up the rankings. As of right now, including this season, he's only had 3 superstar seasons (2017, 2019, 2020) and didn't become a star until 2016. Wade was a superstar for like 10 years.

It's kinda the same thing with Giannis. He didn't become a superstar until 2017, and while he's already basically a 2x MVP with a very bright future still ahead of him, he's just not high up in the all-time rankings yet (sorry ESPN) above other all-timers.

That being said, I'm not ready to put Kawhi above Wade yet. He still needs to consistently play at the same high level he's been playing at for a couple more years

I would say Kawhi already reached superstar status by 2015-16

- won defensive player of the year
- best player on 67 win team
- led playoffs in BPM
- averaged over 20 on 60% TS in reg season and playoffs

[999Guy]

Kawhi is having a really similar career to me as well even though he has had the most help of all-time and it’s not even close. Playing on loaded deep teams in his rookie year to this year in LA.

Kawhi is massively injury prone flawed athletic demigod with high peaks just like Wade had even though to me he is clearly better for peak(2016 and 2017 Kawhi blow Wade out the water due to defense).

By the way 2019 Kawhi is barely an all-nba level player in most seasons. Not elite in defense or offense in any sense. The 2018 and 2020 Raptors basically prove this. He went into Toronto playing damn near bad defense the entire regular season, never passed the ball off the dribble, and took a shit load of games off.

He had an Adrian Dantley type of season except the first two healthy rounds of the playoffs against Orlando and Philly. Toronto is so lucky his leg gave out at the end of the Bucks series instead of earlier. He limped his ass through the finals playing bad defense with a weak floor game. Klay going off bad a lot to do with how he wasn’t picking up any slack on switches on Curry or had strong help defense at all. That finals was way too close, and really showed me just how far he is from the level of a Curry when his defense isn’t on(which it wasn’t for 99% of 2019).



Kawhi may have had the most fortunate and overrated season in the modern era. Lucky bounces, absolutely stacked team and huge injury benefits(even though he got injured himself, HE LOAD MANAGED AN ENTIRE SEASON and still got home court in 3/4 rounds. HE HAS NO EXCUSE).



2019 Kawhi was much closer to a Gervin or Bernard King level guy than prime Wade of 06.’

Though like I said healthy athletic peak Kawhi of 2016 and 2017 was a sickening monster capable of game tilt Wade never reached.

I also like 2020 Kawhi, he’s having a bounce back year.

But Toronto played at the same level in 2019 for a reason. Kawhi wasn’t doing much of shit out there past the pretty fade-aways and pull-ups.

[GimmeThat]

by the end of his current contract, their career income would be the same, give inflation the 2 years buff, so roughly, 4 more years not including this one, and 5 depending how big of a pay cut COVID-19 caused.

[Smoke117]

lol 2017 Kawhi wasn't as good as Dwyane Wade in 2009.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is having a really similar career to me as well even though he has had the most help of all-time and it’s not even close. Playing on loaded deep teams in his rookie year to this year in LA.

Kawhi is massively injury prone flawed athletic demigod with high peaks just like Wade had even though to me he is clearly better for peak(2016 and 2017 Kawhi blow Wade out the water due to defense).

By the way 2019 Kawhi is barely an all-nba level player in most seasons. Not elite in defense or offense in any sense. The 2018 and 2020 Raptors basically prove this. He went into Toronto playing damn near bad defense the entire regular season, never passed the ball off the dribble, and took a shit load of games off.

He had an Adrian Dantley type of season except the first two healthy rounds of the playoffs against Orlando and Philly. Toronto is so lucky his leg gave out at the end of the Bucks series instead of earlier. He limped his ass through the finals playing bad defense with a weak floor game. Klay going off bad a lot to do with how he wasn’t picking up any slack on switches on Curry or had strong help defense at all. That finals was way too close, and really showed me just how far he is from the level of a Curry when his defense isn’t on(which it wasn’t for 99% of 2019).



Kawhi may have had the most fortunate and overrated season in the modern era. Lucky bounces, absolutely stacked team and huge injury benefits(even though he got injured himself, HE LOAD MANAGED AN ENTIRE SEASON and still got home court in 3/4 rounds. HE HAS NO EXCUSE).



2019 Kawhi was much closer to a Gervin or Bernard King level guy than prime Wade of 06.’

Though like I said healthy athletic peak Kawhi of 2016 and 2017 was a sickening monster capable of game tilt Wade never reached.

I also like 2020 Kawhi, he’s having a bounce back year.

But Toronto played at the same level in 2019 for a reason. Kawhi wasn’t doing much of shit out there past the pretty fade-aways and pull-ups.

You are incorrect about 2019 playoffs Kawhi, he still turned it up defensively when needed. Bucks started off 2-0 and that was when Raptors made the switch defensively to put Kawhi on Giannis. The rest is history, they backdoor swept the bucks with Kawhi as the primary defender. In game 6 bucks went up nearly 20 points and Kawhi had to carry them offensively in order to bring them back. The 2nd round was arguably the biggest offensive carry job in NBA history as Kawhi averaged 33PPG 53% FG and had 7 different teammates shooting under 45%. Topped that off with a game 7 40+ point game, buzzer beater, primary defender on Jimmy Butler.

As far as the nba finals, Warriors only ended with a 110 offensive rating as a team and Raptors had a 116 offense rating. That series wasn't even close! Kawhi was closing them out in game 5 until Coach Nurse called that timeout and iced the players. How can you criticize Kawhi when the series wasn't even close?

Kawhi finals averages were still great: 28 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assist, 2 steals, 1 block, 60% TS, 122 offensive rating

[HBK_Kliq_2]

lol 2017 Kawhi wasn't as good as Dwyane Wade in 2009.

Kawhi was 4th alltime in single season BPM, 8th alltime in win shares per 48, 9th alltime in PER during the playoffs that year.

In regular season he was 3rd in votes for MVP and had more 1st place votes than Wade did in 09.

[Axe]

Kawhi has 2 fmvps over wade's 1.

[Phoenix]

Kawhi has 2 fmvps over wade's 1.

Brilliant insight as always.

[Axe]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/979fbf20ae8ee7016fbcbeca106be9d7/tenor.gif?itemid=12642036

[Roundball_Rock]

Probably never. Kawhi has been a star for a mere 4 seasons. Wade was a star for 8-9 seasons and a superstar for most of that time frame.

A lot of people are hanging their hats on Kawhi having 2 FMVP but he was a role player for the first one and he wasn't even the best player in the series. That achievement won't look as good as history evaluates it without recency bias.

Wade had a higher ceiling and accomplished a lot more than Wade through age 28.

For Kawhi to surpass Wade he will need to continue playing at a high level for several more seasons but that will depend on his health. However, given the alleged condition of his knees, which require him to take a historically large percentage of games off, that seems unlikely.

All-NBA: Wade 8, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st team: 2 each
MVP: Both have a pair of top 5 finishes (2nd and 3rd for Kawhi, 3rd and 5th for Wade)
All-star: Wade 13, Kawhi 4
All-D: Kawhi 5, Wade 3

So they aren't close at this point.

[StrongLurk]

Kawhi's "accolades" greatly overrate his actual ability and production over his career.

He is a great player without a doubt but he is more in Bill Walton territory with a very short prime/peak so far.

Hard to rank a guy like that because he just hasn't produced at a high level for a long time.

[RRR3]

Considering the outlook for his longevity? Never.

[dazzer87]

After winning his 3rd chip with his 3rd team.........

[Roundball_Rock]

Considering the outlook for his longevity? Never.

I find it ironic we often hear who badly injured he is that he can only play 60 games a season yet people talk about him beasting well into the 2020's and finishing top 20, even top 10 all-time. Is he hurt or not?

[Shogon]

The 2nd round was arguably the biggest offensive carry job in NBA history as Kawhi averaged 33PPG 53% FG and had 7 different teammates shooting under 45%.


No, it's not even remotely arguable at all you utterly brainless, dipshit, ****** moronic ****** **** sucking ****.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Probably never. Kawhi has been a star for a mere 4 seasons. Wade was a star for 8-9 seasons and a superstar for most of that time frame.

A lot of people are hanging their hats on Kawhi having 2 FMVP but he was a role player for the first one and he wasn't even the best player in the series. That achievement won't look as good as history evaluates it without recency bias.

Wade had a higher ceiling and accomplished a lot more than Wade through age 28.

For Kawhi to surpass Wade he will need to continue playing at a high level for several more seasons but that will depend on his health. However, given the alleged condition of his knees, which require him to take a historically large percentage of games off, that seems unlikely.

All-NBA: Wade 8, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st team: 2 each
MVP: Both have a pair of top 5 finishes (2nd and 3rd for Kawhi, 3rd and 5th for Wade)
All-star: Wade 13, Kawhi 4
All-D: Kawhi 5, Wade 3

So they aren't close at this point.

Wade only was healthy for about 5 superstar years. The sidekick years or injured no playoff years don't add much value. So we're looking at:

2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011

And even 2011 he was a sidekick most of the year

Kawhi has 2016,2017,2019 and working on his 4th superstar year in 2020

[tpols]

Considering the outlook for his longevity? Never.

are you talking about wade or kawhi?

:lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Considering the outlook for his longevity? Never.

His 2014/2015 seasons add to his longevity and are pretty much equal value to Wade's 2012/2013 season. After 2013, Wade's career adds zero value.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, it's not even remotely arguable at all you utterly brainless, dipshit, ****** moronic ****** **** sucking ****.

Instead of cussing like a 5 year old. Try naming a 2nd round series or later when a player won a series averaging 34PPG with 7 teammates under 45% FG

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade has accomplished a lot more. We can't discount the 2011-2014 time frame simply because Wade was playing with LeBron. Kawhi would be a sidekick to prime LeBron too.

Wade versus Kawhi

All-NBA teams: Wade 8, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st teams: Wade 2, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP finishes: 2 each (Kawhi came closer, finishing 2nd while Wade peaked at 3rd)
All-star: Wade 13, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Wade 1
All-D: Kawhi 5, Wade 3
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Wade 0
Scoring titles: Wade 1, Kawhi 0

That is a lot of ground to make up for a guy whose knees allegedly are so fragile he can't play regularly despite being 28.

Wade has the higher peak and more longevity at this point. I don't see what case Kawhi has over him right now. Do you consider Kawhi's peak greater than Wade's?


His 2014/2015 seasons add to his longevity and are pretty much equal value to Wade's 2012/2013 season

Wade was all-NBA in 12' and 13'. Kawhi was a role player in 14' and a regular all-star in 15' but not all-NBA.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wade has accomplished a lot more. We can't discount the 2011-2014 time frame simply because Wade was playing with LeBron. Kawhi would be a sidekick to prime LeBron too.

Wade versus Kawhi

All-NBA teams: Wade 8, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st teams: Wade 2, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP finishes: 2 each (Kawhi came closer, finishing 2nd while Wade peaked at 3rd)
All-star: Wade 13, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Wade 1
All-D: Kawhi 5, Wade 3
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Wade 0
Scoring titles: Wade 1, Kawhi 0

That is a lot of ground to make up for a guy whose knees allegedly are so fragile he can't play regularly despite being 28.

Wade has the higher peak and more longevity at this point. I don't see what case Kawhi has over him right now. Do you consider Kawhi's peak greater than Wade's?



Wade was all-NBA in 12' and 13'. Kawhi was a role player in 14' and a regular all-star in 15' but not all-NBA.

Wade in 2013 was no longer an all nba guy, that was a reputation selection. Kobe received twice as many defensive all nba teams as he should have because his rep, that's how it goes sometimes.

Kawhi in 2014 playoffs was equal to Wade in 2013, probably better due to finals performance

2012 Wade is on same tier as 2015 Kawhi

And they are equal for 1st teams and MVP votes? I would say Kawhi in playoffs has peaked higher then Wade in my opinion.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3 maybe 4 more years of elite play and the conversation will shift. I think Kawhi's 2019 seasons stacks up with Wade's best, but ya. His career has ways to go.

[Shogon]

Instead of cussing like a 5 year old. Try naming a 2nd round series or later when a player won a series averaging 34PPG with 7 teammates under 45% FG

Your statement is so incredibly false it's not worth a serious response.

If your only criteria is some random arbitrary "number of teammates that shot under 45% fg" metric, which doesn't take into account the fact that the main guy should be causing teammates fg%'s to rise if anything, then you haven't the faintest clue about what "offensive carrying" even means, never mind any clue about how basketball is actually played. Shut up and **** off.

[RRR3]

3 maybe 4 more years of elite play and the conversation will shift. I think Kawhi's 2019 seasons stacks up with Wade's best, but ya. His career has ways to go.
Hardly a guarantee with Kawhi.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hardly a guarantee with Kawhi.

Nothing is guaranteed.

Kawhi is only 28 though, so everything from here boosts his resume.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Your statement is so incredibly false it's not worth a serious response.

If your only criteria is some random arbitrary "number of teammates that shot under 45% fg" metric, which doesn't take into account the fact that the main guy should be causing teammates fg%'s to rise if anything, then you haven't the faintest clue about what "offensive carrying" even means, never mind any clue about how basketball is actually played. Shut up and **** off.

The main guy led his team to the championship that year and that's all that matters. Its not his fault his teammates were all scared shitless of a defense with Embiid/Butler. Is Kawhi there daddy now? They couldn't score because a defense led by Embiid/Butler is a nightmare. Kawhi still carried them all series long, including 41 PPG in 3/4 wins. Guys like you should be in the comment section of YouTube saying random troll garbage and not actual basketball content.

[tpols]

all i know is that if you put prime '16-'19 kawhi on the Heat with Wade and bosh they probably 4 peat.

[Turbo Slayer]

all i know is that if you put prime '16-'19 kawhi on the heat with wade and bosh they probably 4 peat.

stfu. No one needs u posting garbage on this forum.

[Turbo Slayer]

The main guy led his team to the championship that year and that's all that matters. Its not his fault his teammates were all scared shitless of a defense with Embiid/Butler. Is Kawhi there daddy now? They couldn't score because a defense led by Embiid/Butler is a nightmare. Kawhi still carried them all series long, including 41 PPG in 3/4 wins. Guys like you should be in the comment section of YouTube saying random troll garbage and not actual basketball content. They were 15th ranked defense. Literally middle of the pack.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They were 15th ranked defense. Literally middle of the pack.

And tell me how many of those games did Embiid/Butler play together??

[tpols]

stfu. No one needs u posting garbage on this forum.

just imagine kawhi's shooting and clutch play alongside dwayne wade. Imagine the fit. Theyd be a formidable duo.

[RRR3]

stfu. No one needs u posting garbage on this forum.
Literally every single post he makes on the NBA forum has the same agenda. Kobe good, LeBron bad. Very tiresome.

[Turbo Slayer]

And tell me how many of those games did Embiid/Butler play together?? In the 2019 regular season? Well, according to Basketball Reference they played enough games to mesh together.

:rolleyes:

[Turbo Slayer]

And tell me how many of those games did Embiid/Butler play together?? Also when Embiid and Butler played together they didnt thread the needle defensively too much. The DefRtg didnt change too much. So it indicates they had little impact on that end.

[Turbo Slayer]

just imagine kawhi's shooting and clutch play alongside dwayne wade. Imagine the fit. Theyd be a formidable duo. Are you dumb?

Kawhi Leonard sat out for 9 games in 2018 due to a mysterious injury or something, stupid ass. That would be Kawhi's 3rd year on the Heat. The Heat are definitely not winning a championship without Kawhi. Sure the Heat will still be good but they need Kawhi to put them over the heap and it wont.

4 peat? Lmao. Stop with your garbage ass takes.

[ArbitraryWater]

Are you dumb?

Kawhi Leonard sat out for 9 games in 2018 due to a mysterious injury or something, stupid ass. That would be Kawhi's 3rd year on the Heat. The Heat are definitely not winning a championship without Kawhi. Sure the Heat will still be good but they need Kawhi to put them over the heap and it wont.

4 peat? Lmao. Stop with your garbage ass takes.

how many chips they win?

[Shogon]

The main guy led his team to the championship that year and that's all that matters. Its not his fault his teammates were all scared shitless of a defense with Embiid/Butler. Is Kawhi there daddy now? They couldn't score because a defense led by Embiid/Butler is a nightmare. Kawhi still carried them all series long, including 41 PPG in 3/4 wins. Guys like you should be in the comment section of YouTube saying random troll garbage and not actual basketball content.

You're a brain dead idiot and you don't deserve to post the idiocy in your brain for others to see. Stop trying to infect other people with your dumpster fire of a brain.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also when Embiid and Butler played together they didnt thread the needle defensively too much. The DefRtg didnt change too much. So it indicates they had little impact on that end.

And what are you basing that off? the 10 games they played together in regular season? During the playoffs they were dominating on defense in the 2nd round.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You're a brain dead idiot and you don't deserve to post the idiocy in your brain for others to see. Stop trying to infect other people with your dumpster fire of a brain.

Wade championship as best player: June 2006
Shogon join date: June 2006

We all know why you're having this meltdown. Cussing like a 5 year old isn't going to disguise your true intentions.

[LoneyROY7]

Considering the outlook for his longevity? Never.

You realize you're comparing him to Wade, right? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Literally every single post he makes on the NBA forum has the same agenda. Kobe good, LeBron bad. Very tiresome.

That explains a lot. He was saying Pippen=Iggy just yesterday. :roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You realize you're comparing him to Wade, right? :oldlol:

Exactly, Wade never had 1 superstar year in his 30's. What longevity? lol

[Shogon]

Wade championship as best player: June 2006
Shogon join date: June 2006

We all know why you're having this meltdown. Cussing like a 5 year old isn't going to disguise your true intentions.

What? LOL. I've been posting here since 2002, this board first migrated to vbulletin in June of 2006 which is why you won't find a join date before that, and I am not a fan of Dwyane Wade. We don't "all know" a damn thing.

Stop with the stupid ass hyperbolic statements. "Best offense carry job of all time"... haha, what a ****ing idiot. Stop taking it to the extreme dumbass. Everything doesn't have to be "the best of all time" or "the worst of all time" or anything "of all time" just because your stupid ass was around to see it. Now shut up.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a playoff series every single year by some OTHER player that it would be ARGUABLE that it was a better offensive "carry job" than Kawhi did in that series. Best of all time though... yeah... lol, ****ing dumbass.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What? LOL. I've been posting here since 2002, this board first migrated to vbulletin in June of 2006 which is why you won't find a join date before that, and I am not a fan of Dwyane Wade. We don't "all know" a damn thing.

Stop with the stupid ass hyperbolic statements. "Best offense carry job of all time"... haha, what a ****ing idiot. Stop taking it to the extreme dumbass. Everything doesn't have to be "the best of all time" or "the worst of all time" or anything "of all time" just because your stupid ass was around to see it. Now shut up.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a playoff series every single year by some OTHER player that it would be ARGUABLE that it was a better offensive "carry job" than Kawhi did in that series. Best of all time though... yeah... lol, ****ing dumbass.

I've already made a thread asking to name a player who won a 2nd round series or later while averaging 34PPG and 7 teammates shooting worse than 45% FG. Nobody could name one player who did that in NBA history.

Embiid\Butler are two of the top 10 defensive players in the league on one team vs career choker Lowry, no jump shot Siakam, or washed up Marc Gasol.

Yet, Kawhi still averaged 34PPG on 63% TS and won the series.

You have made zero argument.

[Shogon]

Ok, I'm not even going to think about 2019...

Look at 2018... LeBron James carried more offensive load in every single series for an entire playoffs than Kawhi did in that one.

And that's ignoring the REST OF HISTORY.

Your arbitrary "shot less than 45 fg%" criteria means nothing to me, because it's just that... arbitrary. And it's stupid.

Whose alt are you?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ok, I'm not even going to think about 2019...

Look at 2018... LeBron James carried more offensive load in every single series for an entire playoffs than Kawhi did in that one.

And that's ignoring the REST OF HISTORY.

Your arbitrary "shot less than 45 fg%" criteria means nothing to me, because it's just that... arbitrary. And it's stupid.

Whose alt are you?

2018 Lebron didn't face anywhere near the competition of 76ers\Bucks in the east!

Victor Oladipo and rookie Tatum was a damn cakewalk, any normal east path and Lebron wouldn't have made the finals that year.

Kawhi had to face arguably the best big man Embiid and another all nba player in Butler. After that he faced best record and MVP Bucks. It's not even close when looking at their east paths.

I've never had a different account on this forum, i have posted on realgm\reddit in the past.

[Axe]

Kawhi has been blessed to play in the playoffs each year since 2012, as he played for playoff contending teams. Wade, otoh, was helped by the triumvirate era that kept them to compete in the finals for four straight years, having two chips in the process.

Also, both of these players won their first respective chips and had fmvps in just their first 3 years in the league.

[Lebron23]

all i know is that if you put prime '16-'19 kawhi on the Heat with Wade and bosh they probably 4 peat.

I don't think so. Kawhi is a front running b1tch who benefitted on playing under a great coaching staff. When he's the leader of his team. They crumbled in game 7 and in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[Akhenaten]

2018 Lebron didn't face anywhere near the competition of 76ers\Bucks in the east!


Sure the Sixers are composed a little bit differently but this playoffs REALLY showed how fatally flawed those two teams are/were and how suspect Embiid is.

I never considered that playoff run to be anywhere near as impressive has others have and the Bucks/Sixers performance this season has validated my sentiments.