Top 40 Players on All-Time Lists

[Roundball_Rock]

In recent weeks it has become clear a lot of people have no idea how all-time lists look so you see a wild divergence where one poster will say a player is top 25 and another that he is not top 50. Often the more extreme takes are done in a vacuum.

That isn't how all-time lists work. If you are saying a player is not top 50, you need to identify at least 50 players that were greater. These lists operate from a criteria and put pen to paper to go from 1 to whatever the project covers (ESPN went top 74, Slam top 100).

This is a review of recent lists to give people an idea of where players rank. As you can see, there is a lot of consistency between lists regarding in which tier most players fall.

These players are listed with the highest player in the tier listed first (so Thomas was 31st in ESPN, Paul 40th and Pippen 21st, Nash 30th, and so forth).

All-Time Lists

Top 31-40

ESPN: Thomas, Harden, Havlicek, Mikan, Kidd, McHale, Ewing, Petit, Frazier, Paul
Slam: Kidd, Barry, Hayes, Nash, Paul, Frazier, Westbrook, Cousy, Payton, McHale
Backpicks: Petit, Havlicek, Frazier, Kidd, Pierce, Gilmore, Baylor, McHale, Drexler, Allen

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

Top 11-30

ESPN: Oscar, Hakeem, Curry, Durant, Erving, West, K. Malone, M. Malone, Dirk, Garnett
Slam: Oscar, Hakeem, Durant, M. Malone, Erving, West, Thomas, Baylor, Curry, Barkley
Backpicks: Bird, Oscar, Kobe, K. Malone, Robinson, Erving, West, Dirk, Nash, Curry

Top 1-10

ESPN: Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Wilt, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq
Slam: Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Bird
Backpicks: Kareem, LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Wilt, Magic

[LAmbruh]

Here's the same media lists from Jan 2016 thread





ESPN

Michael Jordan
Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O’Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon


CBS Sports

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Shaquille O’Neal
Kobe Bryant

FOX Sports

Michael Jordan
Lebron James
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwan

Sports Illustrated

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Tim Duncan

AOL

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlin
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon

Britannica

Lebron James
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robinson
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

Sporteology

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Shaquille Oneal
Hakeem Olajuwan

news.com

Michael Jordan
Lebron James
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson

theroar.com

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Shaquille Oneal
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Bill Russell

axs.com

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Shaquille Oneal


*RealGM + Reddit + Insidehoop + etc, all pretty much consensually agree on the same Top 10, Top 5, with a few shuffled around here n there. But if you bundle all lists together the average is pretty similar and stable, that's why it's called The Consensus™

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks! :cheers: Are those in order?

I think the top 12 or so are pretty clear. People can understand that. Where people get confused is everyone from 15 onwards. This happens with active players who are rising and with retired players who are liked or disliked for agenda purposes.


Britannica

As in the encyclopedia? It still exists?

[Doranku]

Wish I could ask the creators of these lists their rationales behind some of these rankings.

Like for Backpicks, how do you justify Chris Paul > Barkley, KD, Moses Malone, Wade, Pip? I feel like he has absolutely no case over any of those guys.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wish I could ask the creators of these lists their rationales behind some of these rankings.

Like for Backpicks, how do you justify Chris Paul > Barkley, KD, Moses Malone, Wade, Pip? I feel like he has absolutely no case over any of those guys.

Backpicks goes a long way in explaining their rationale. ESPN and Slam didn't. ESPN had different writers write a couple sentences on each but nothing about why they ranked people where. Backpicks is heavy on stats and film evaluation.

For Paul it looks like he baked in some progress for Paul over the end of his career:


Despite some durability glitches, Paul has logged eight all-league seasons by my count, including five fringe MVP years, making him by far the best 6-footer in NBA history. His combination of scoring and passing demonstrated on film, along with healthy box and impact metrics indicate a strong peak, in the running for third-best among point guards and one of the 25 best overall peaks in NBA history. I could see valuing him a touch less, bringing him as low as 26th or 27th (at worst), but I’m more sympathetic to inching him up slightly. He needs another good season to reach the 19th spot, but for now he lands at No. 21.

So I suspect if he did it now Paul would slide to 25-27. https://backpicks.com/2018/02/19/backpicks-goat-21-chris-paul/

[RRR3]

Wish I could ask the creators of these lists their rationales behind some of these rankings.

Like for Backpicks, how do you justify Chris Paul > Barkley, KD, Moses Malone, Wade, Pip? I feel like he has absolutely no case over any of those guys.
You don’t think Chris Paul has a case over Pippen? He also makes pretty good argument as to why Moses is overrated. CP3 is really underrated there’s not much of a case for him not to be top 25 IMO. He’s had elite longevity which Ben Taylor (backpicks guy) is big on.

[RRR3]

Backpicks goes a long way in explaining their rationale. ESPN and Slam didn't. ESPN had different writers write a couple sentences on each but nothing about why they ranked people where. Backpicks is heavy on stats and film evaluation.

For Paul it looks like he baked in some progress for Paul over the end of his career:



So I suspect if he did it now Paul would slide to 25-27. https://backpicks.com/2018/02/19/backpicks-goat-21-chris-paul/
Uh...CP3 just had another good season so he’s 19th now by his own admission.

[HoopsNY]

You don’t think Chris Paul has a case over Pippen? He also makes pretty good argument as to why Moses is overrated. CP3 is really underrated there’s not much of a case for him not to be top 25 IMO. He’s had elite longevity which Ben Taylor (backpicks guy) is big on.

It's really hard for me to consider Moses overrated when he won 3 MVPs and 6 rebounding titles, as well as a finals MVP. And he won MVPs with guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Bird, and Magic in the league. In the 1984-85 season, he finished 3rd behind Magic and Bird.

[RRR3]

It's really hard for me to consider Moses overrated when he won 3 MVPs and 6 rebounding titles, as well as a finals MVP. And he won MVPs with guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Bird, and Magic in the league. In the 1984-85 season, he finished 3rd behind Magic and Bird.
https://www.backpicks.com/2018/01/08/backpicks-goat-24-moses-malone/

[Roundball_Rock]

Of these guys how many would you put Paul over?


Top 31-40

ESPN: Thomas, Harden, Havlicek, Mikan, Kidd, McHale, Ewing, Petit, Frazier, Paul
Slam: Kidd, Barry, Hayes, Nash, Paul, Frazier, Westbrook, Cousy, Payton, McHale
Backpicks: Petit, Havlicek, Frazier, Kidd, Pierce, Gilmore, Baylor, McHale, Drexler, Allen

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

For me I would put Paul over Harden (career wise--Harden should finish ahead of Paul when it is all said and done), Kidd, Mikan (hard to know where to slot him but let's say top 30), McHale, Ewing, Petit, Frazier, Hayes, Nash, Westbrook, Cousy, Payton, Pierce, Gilmore, Drexler, Allen.

So he clearly to me is better than the other guys in the 31-40 tier. I can't put him ahead of Thomas, though.

Barry, Havlicek are debatable but I have both ahead of Paul.

For the 21-30 guys on these lists it gets tougher. I have him ahead of Giannis, Leonard, Nash, Iverson, Miller (who is 30th on Backpicks).

Paul has cases over Stockton, Pippen, Wade too but I would put them all above him.

[1987_Lakers]

It's really hard for me to consider Moses overrated when he won 3 MVPs and 6 rebounding titles, as well as a finals MVP. And he won MVPs with guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Bird, and Magic in the league. In the 1984-85 season, he finished 3rd behind Magic and Bird.

Moses was a rebounding God, but his defensive impact as a center was below guys like Hakeem, D-Rob, Russell etc. He was a black hole on offense, not known as a passer at all. I'd take '77 Bill Walton over any version of Moses.

[Roundball_Rock]

Where do you guys have Moses? He has to be top 15 to me. 3x MVP in a tough time to win MVP's, as Hoops noted. It is hard to compare scoring across eras but how a player ranked as a scorer in his era is instructive. Moses was twice 2nd in scoring and was top 5 five years in a row at his peak.

[RRR3]

Thomas has zero case over Paul. It’s not even remotely close. What does he even do better on the court? :lol Paul has him on longevity AND peak. Check the realgm thread on it. Thomas is another one of the guys MJ stans overrate the shit out of.

[1987_Lakers]

Where do you guys have Moses? He has to be top 15 to me. 3x MVP in a tough time to win MVP's, as Hoops noted. It is hard to compare scoring across eras but how a player ranked as a scorer in his era is instructive. Moses was twice 2nd in scoring and was top 5 five years in a row at his peak.

I used to have him in my top 15, at first glance he seems underrated considering his dominant numbers, MVPs, & even a championship, but the deeper you dig, the more you realize why some people aren't as high on Moses. I still have him ranked ahead of David Robinson even though I think D-Rob had a better peak, Malone accomplished more. I have Moses as my #6 center all time. He was a good defender, but not an elite one when compared to other great centers, and the fact that he was a black hole on offense is a turn off to me. I have him somewhere in the top 15-20 range.

[RRR3]

I’d much rather have David Robinson than Moses from what I know of them. ESPECIALLY in today’s league.

[Roundball_Rock]

The problem with Robinson is the playoff chokes, especially at his peak. He went from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the playoffs in 94' as the Spurs lost in the first round as a 55 win team, for instance.

[RRR3]

The problem with Robinson is the playoff chokes, especially at his peak. He went from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the playoffs in 94' as the Spurs lost in the first round as a 55 win team, for instance.
He did but he’s still giving you ATG defense and Moses never won anything without one of the most stacked teams of all time. Robinson likely wins on that team as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

He did but he’s still giving you ATG defense and Moses never won anything without one of the most stacked teams of all time. Robinson likely wins on that team as well.

Splitting hairs at this high level of legends.

The other difference is Moses won 3 MVP's. Robinson won 1 and that was with the best player retired.

[Whoah10115]

Thomas has zero case over Paul. It’s not even remotely close. What does he even do better on the court? :lol Paul has him on longevity AND peak. Check the realgm thread on it. Thomas is another one of the guys MJ stans overrate the shit out of.

Unfortunately that's not true.

For sure, it isn't "not even remotely close".

And if Paul is better then he isn't better because the metric will prove it. Maybe I need to take a step back and reevaluate.

Then again, I have Kidd ahead. Kidd is better.