"Michael Jordan is a liar and a snitch" - Horace Grant

[1987_Lakers]

In a radio interview with Kap and Co. on ESPN 1000 in Chicago on Tuesday, Grant said it "is a downright, outright, completely lie" that he leaked much of the information in Sam Smith's famous "The Jordan Rules" book, as Jordan alleged during the documentary.

"Lie, lie, lie. ... If MJ had a grudge with me, let's settle this like men," Grant said during the interview. "Let's talk about it. Or we can settle it another way. But yet and still, he goes out and puts this lie out that I was the source behind [the book]. Sam and I have always been great friends. We're still great friends. But the sanctity of that locker room, I would never put anything personal out there. The mere fact that Sam Smith was an investigative reporter. That he had to have two sources, two, to write a book, I guess. Why would MJ just point me out?

"It's only a grudge, man. I'm telling you, it was only a grudge. And I think he proved that during this so-called documentary. When if you say something about him, he's going to cut you off, he's going to try to destroy your character."

"Charles Barkley, they've been friends for over 20, 30 years," Grant said. "And he said something about Michael's management with the Charlotte Bobcats or the Charlotte Hornets, and then they haven't spoken since then. And my point is, he said that I was the snitch, but yet and still after 35 years he brings up his rookie year going into one of his teammates' rooms and seeing coke, and weed and women. My point is: Why the hell did he want to bring that up? What's that got to do with anything? I mean, if you want to call somebody a snitch, that's a damn snitch right there."

Like other former teammates, Grant was unhappy with the portrayal of various players and situations throughout the documentary.

"I would say [it was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it -- I don't know if I can say it on air, but B.S. in terms of the realness of it," Grant said. "It wasn't real -- because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch

[1987_Lakers]

Grant also defended former teammate Scottie Pippen, who has not spoken publicly since the documentary began to air last month. As ESPN's Jackie MacMullan wrote earlier this month, Pippen has been stung by his portrayal in the documentary.

"I have never seen a quote unquote No. 2 guy, as decorated as Scottie Pippen, portrayed so badly," Grant said when asked whether he thinks Pippen was portrayed fairly in the documentary, which detailed his decision not to play the final seconds of a 1994 playoff game.

"In terms of the migraine, in terms of the 1.[8] seconds, [Jordan calling him] selfish. I have never seen this in all of my life. ... Pip was out there in Game 6 [of the '98 Finals], could barely walk, getting knocked down on his back. Tried to do whatever he could to help that team. My point is, why was that 1.[8] seconds in the documentary, so-called documentary, about Pip?

"MJ wasn't even on the team. Why was that in there? We handled that that year really well as a team. Pip knows that he was wrong for doing it. ... Bill Cartwright stood up and said what he had to say, and then we handled it. It was over. It was over. We go on to take the Knicks to seven games. It was over. Why bring that up? That's my question to everybody out there who's listening."

The interview concluded with Grant being asked why he repeatedly referred to "The Last Dance" as a "so-called documentary." Some have pointed to the fact that two of Jordan's closest confidantes, Estee Portnoy and Curtis Polk, were executive producers on the docuseries as an indication that Jordan had final say and creative control over the project. Director Jason Hehir has pushed back against that criticism, but Grant didn't hesitate to discuss what he believes to be a biased point of view in favor of Jordan.

"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."

[Da_Realist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyd42BJs7_0

[Manny98]

Grant firing shots at the Golden Boy I like it :applause:

I agree with him on the last sentence, this wasn't a documentary it was simply Jordan propaganda to make him look good and to try and justify him being a asshole to his teammates

[Soundwave]

Grant firing shots at the Golden Boy I like it :applause:

I agree with him on the last sentence, this wasn't a documentary it was simply Jordan propaganda to make him look good and to try and justify him being a asshole to his teammates

His career makes him look good, he doesn't need a documentary to do that.

If anything he doesn't need to show any of that stuff about him being harsh to teammates.

Pro sports should be tough in the locker room, it shouldn't be the freaking ice capades.

You're in a results oriented business, you're not there to make friends and eat cake.

Pretty soon coaches won't even be allowed to yell at a player because someone's poor feelings might be hurt (oh noez).

[3ball]

In a radio interview with Kap and Co. on ESPN 1000 in Chicago on Tuesday, Grant said it "is a downright, outright, completely lie" that he leaked much of the information in Sam Smith's famous "The Jordan Rules" book, as Jordan alleged during the documentary.

"Lie, lie, lie. ... If MJ had a grudge with me, let's settle this like men," Grant said during the interview. "Let's talk about it. Or we can settle it another way. But yet and still, he goes out and puts this lie out that I was the source behind [the book]. Sam and I have always been great friends. We're still great friends. But the sanctity of that locker room, I would never put anything personal out there. The mere fact that Sam Smith was an investigative reporter. That he had to have two sources, two, to write a book, I guess. Why would MJ just point me out?

"It's only a grudge, man. I'm telling you, it was only a grudge. And I think he proved that during this so-called documentary. When if you say something about him, he's going to cut you off, he's going to try to destroy your character."

"Charles Barkley, they've been friends for over 20, 30 years," Grant said. "And he said something about Michael's management with the Charlotte Bobcats or the Charlotte Hornets, and then they haven't spoken since then. And my point is, he said that I was the snitch, but yet and still after 35 years he brings up his rookie year going into one of his teammates' rooms and seeing coke, and weed and women. My point is: Why the hell did he want to bring that up? What's that got to do with anything? I mean, if you want to call somebody a snitch, that's a damn snitch right there."

Like other former teammates, Grant was unhappy with the portrayal of various players and situations throughout the documentary.

"I would say [it was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it -- I don't know if I can say it on air, but B.S. in terms of the realness of it," Grant said. "It wasn't real -- because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch

Barkley can take a shot at MJ and it's okay?

I'm sure if we saw the replay, that Barkley wasn't just "doing his job"... He probably added extra attitude and sneering as he delighted in stomping on executive MJ.. Barkley proved he wasn't a true friend to MJ in that moment.

As for Horace - MJ wins him 6 rings and this is how you repay him?.. ungrateful, replaceable player.. ultimately, MJ won with 3 different starting PF's in the playoffs - Horace, Rodman, Kukoc (he was the starter in 98' PO)

[Stanley Kobrick]

Grant firing shots at the Golden Boy I like it :applause:

I agree with him on the last sentence, this wasn't a documentary it was simply Jordan propaganda to make him look good and to try and justify him being a asshole to his teammates
i agree with you manny, i was hoping it wouldn't be a puff piece like most jordan documentaries. but it was even worse, and humiliating to teammates. almost entirely slamming Jerry Krause, i wondered if they would ever touch on Michaels success as a GM/Owner. but ofcourse they didn't

[Lebron23]

i agree with you manny, i was hoping it wouldn't be a puff piece like most jordan documentaries. but it was even worse, and humiliating to teammates

Jordan still mad at Horace Grant for signing with the orlando magic and beating his team in the playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Barkley can take a shot at MJ and it's okay?

I'm sure if we saw the replay, that Barkley wasn't just "doing his job"... He probably added extra attitude and sneering as he delighted in stomping on executive MJ.. Barkley proved he wasn't a true friend to MJ in that moment.

As for Horace - MJ wins him 6 rings and this is how you repay him?.. ungrateful, replaceable player.. ultimately, MJ won with 3 different starting PF's in the playoffs - Horace, Rodman, Kukoc (he was the starter in 98' PO)
:oldlol:

And wtf, Grant wasn't there for the 2nd 3peat, he was there though to kick Jordan's ass to the curb in '95, he beasted that series

[Roundball_Rock]

Grant speaking truth. :applause:


"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."

[Lebron23]

:oldlol:

And wtf, Grant wasn't there for the 2nd 3peat, he was there though to kick Jordan's ass to the curb in '95, he beasted that series

This

[Stanley Kobrick]

:oldlol:

And wtf, Grant wasn't there for the 2nd 3peat, he was there though to kick Jordan's ass to the curb in '95, he beasted that series
wow, for being a Michael fan that 3ball guy sure doesn't know the Bulls roster well

[Smoke117]

Horace Grant telling it like it is. :applause: Everybody knows this "so called documentary" is just a puff piece to boost Jordan's ego.

[dazzer87]

Everyone knew Grant was a snitch when Sam wrote that book.....I guess he’s mad that the world now knows he’s a snitch....:lol

[Lebron23]

Just read the complete article. Grant said if jordan stop him for ordering food he would definitely beat his @$$ and there will be no Air Jordan in the 1990's. Harper said Jordan bullied scott burrell, but jordan didn't dared to do it to him.

[Roundball_Rock]

wow, for being a Michael fan that 3ball guy sure doesn't know the Bulls roster well

He has admitted he hasn't watched basketball since 2011. Are we sure he has ever watched basketball outside of YT highlights?


Everyone knew Grant was a snitch when Sam wrote that book.....I guess he’s mad that the world now knows he’s a snitch..

:coleman:

You need multiple sources. I don't think Smith had trouble finding them since his teammates hated MJ. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Everyone knew Grant was a snitch when Sam wrote that book.....I guess he’s mad that the world now knows he’s a snitch....:lol

There is actually alot of sources out there saying Phil Jackson was the snitch.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is actually alot of sources out there saying Phil Jackson was the snitch.

There was too much info in the book. It couldn't have all come from players.

One other thing of note is Smith also covered the Bulls for Chicago's main newspaper at the time. So what info did he collect doing his day job and what did he get for the book per se?

[guy]

I don’t recall the doc ever saying players didn’t go back at him - that was kind of the point of the Steve Kerr story.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don’t recall the doc ever saying players didn’t go back at him - that was kind of the point of the Steve Kerr story.

:kobe:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Earlier today, Grant corroborated the piece by Sam Smith. Admits Jordan prevented him from eating on a plane.

What kinda grown man gets told they can't eat....by another male? By a peer at that. Grant just sat there and took it.

Now he's on some bullshit about 'we could handle it'. Why didn't you do anything then, ya big dummy? :lol

[guy]

Was it not? There’s two examples they went into detail about, one that didn’t really go back at him, Scott Burrell, and one that did, Steve Kerr. Otherwise the basic theme was he was an asshole to his teammates and they only got his respect if they went back at him - not specifying who else did or didn’t go back at him. What did you expect, for them to show a full blown fight??

[Roundball_Rock]

Was it not? There’s two examples they went into detail about, one that didn’t really go back at him, Scott Burrell, and one that did, Steve Kerr. Otherwise the basic theme was he was an asshole to his teammates and he only got their respect if they went back at him - not specifying who else did or didn’t go back at him.

The way it was presented was they generally bent over and took it from King Jordan because they were betas and losers who needed MJ to teach them how to win (because MJ himself had won so much in the NBA :lol ). Why do you think Horace is calling it out?

We have seen Grant call the documentary out. Rodman felt he needed to come out and speak about some of the bias. Pippen "reportedly" also doesn't like it. Noticing a trend here?

[3ball]

:oldlol:

And wtf, Grant wasn't there for the 2nd 3peat, he was there though to kick Jordan's ass to the curb in '95, he beasted that series

That was a sweet moment for him.. i remember being happy for him

But it was obviously much easier in Orlando playing with 2 great scorers to take pressure off, as opposed to 1 in Chicago.. I doubt he ever beat Shaq or Penny in winning contribution (ws/48) like he did Pip

[Vino24]

MJ has spoken out before about the media not giving his teammates enough credit. Can’t wait to see his comments on the doc

[Soundwave]

Earlier today, Grant corroborated the piece by Sam Smith. Admits Jordan prevented him from eating on a plane.

What kinda grown man gets told they can't eat....by another male? By a peer at that. Grant just sat there and took it.

Now he's on some bullshit about 'we could handle it'. Why didn't you do anything then, ya big dummy? :lol

Horace Grant doing the Rick James. I didn't tell Sam Smith anything ... of course I told Sam Smith.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ has spoken out before about the media not giving his teammates enough credit. Can’t wait to see his comments on the doc

The biggest takeaway from his doc, other than how MJ walks on water, is how much his teammates were dazed and confused losers without him--and how Pippen in particular sucks. MJ stans on ISH were in glee over how bad Pippen came off in the documentary. Which is why Rodman and Grant felt they needed to go out their way to defend him (where is Mike?).

MJ talks a good game about crediting his teammates but his "doc" told me all I need to know.

[Bronbron23]

In a radio interview with Kap and Co. on ESPN 1000 in Chicago on Tuesday, Grant said it "is a downright, outright, completely lie" that he leaked much of the information in Sam Smith's famous "The Jordan Rules" book, as Jordan alleged during the documentary.

"Lie, lie, lie. ... If MJ had a grudge with me, let's settle this like men," Grant said during the interview. "Let's talk about it. Or we can settle it another way. But yet and still, he goes out and puts this lie out that I was the source behind [the book]. Sam and I have always been great friends. We're still great friends. But the sanctity of that locker room, I would never put anything personal out there. The mere fact that Sam Smith was an investigative reporter. That he had to have two sources, two, to write a book, I guess. Why would MJ just point me out?

"It's only a grudge, man. I'm telling you, it was only a grudge. And I think he proved that during this so-called documentary. When if you say something about him, he's going to cut you off, he's going to try to destroy your character."

"Charles Barkley, they've been friends for over 20, 30 years," Grant said. "And he said something about Michael's management with the Charlotte Bobcats or the Charlotte Hornets, and then they haven't spoken since then. And my point is, he said that I was the snitch, but yet and still after 35 years he brings up his rookie year going into one of his teammates' rooms and seeing coke, and weed and women. My point is: Why the hell did he want to bring that up? What's that got to do with anything? I mean, if you want to call somebody a snitch, that's a damn snitch right there."

Like other former teammates, Grant was unhappy with the portrayal of various players and situations throughout the documentary.

"I would say [it was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it -- I don't know if I can say it on air, but B.S. in terms of the realness of it," Grant said. "It wasn't real -- because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch

Yeah i gotta agree with grant as much as i dont want to. Mj definitely snitched and he has a questionable character so ill take grants word for it and say most likely lied.

[Soundwave]

The biggest takeaway from his doc, other than how MJ walks on water, is how much his teammates were dazed and confused losers without him--and how Pippen in particular sucks. MJ stans on ISH were in glee over how bad Pippen came off in the documentary. Which is why Rodman and Grant felt they needed to go out their way to defend him (where is Mike?).

MJ talks a good game about crediting his teammates but his "doc" told me all I need to know.

The doc does given Pippen a lot of due.

It also fairly covers incidents in his career that weren't flattering to him. You can't just ignore those things. I think Pippen was hoping they'd just gloss over that or not cover it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Horace Grant doing the Rick James. I didn't tell Sam Smith anything ... of course I told Sam Smith.

He wasn't the only one either. Been hearing Phil's name pop up A LOT. Makes sense too. He loved drama and its followed him everywhere he went.

Still laughing @ Grant not eating that entire ride :oldlol: Nobody stood up to Jordan or for Horace. Pathetic.

[guy]

The way it was presented was they generally bent over and took it from King Jordan because they were betas and losers who needed MJ to teach them how to win (because MJ himself had won so much in the NBA :lol ). Why do you think Horace is calling it out?

We have seen Grant call the documentary out. Rodman felt he needed to come out and speak about some of the bias. Pippen "reportedly" also doesn't like it. Noticing a trend here?

That’s the way your constant bitchy self sees it. Most people saw it as him being an asshole, not that everyone just took it.

Okay sure on Grant.

Pretty sure Rodman hasn’t came out and criticized the doc but correct me if I’m wrong - he just defended Scottie and even said he should be holding his head higher then Jordan in this documentary.

I don’t know what people expected with Pippen. The migraine game, the sitting out, and his contract/trade talks were pretty big storylines for the 90s Bulls even before this doc. Were they just supposed to gloss over them? They still showed and expressed that he was a great player and great teammate. What more do you want? This was a Bulls doc but mainly a Jordan doc. They weren’t going to highlight as many great performances for him as they were for Jordan, especially cause he didn’t have nearly as many, but they couldn’t gloss over those negative events that were clearly defining storylines for that team. Horace Grant saying they shouldn’t have even brought up the sit out situation makes no sense given the gravity of it - also doesn’t help that Pippen still says he would’ve done it again.

[Soundwave]

He wasn't the only one either. Been hearing Phil's name pop up. A lot. Would make sense. Guy likes drama and its followed him everywhere he went.

Still laughing at Grant not eating that entire ride. Nobody stood up to Jordan or for Horace. Pathetic.

Kind of a dumb game for Phil to play if it ultimately contributed to Jordan's retirement. Unless he had some forsight of the future where he knew Jordan would come back in 18 months, you're playing with fire.

To be honest it's not like Jordan sounded bitter or anything he just casually says Horace was the source.

Pro sports should be tough, I don't really have a big problem with that type of stuff. The 80s/90s was not as sensitive as things are now either.

[tpols]

horace grant was totally replaceable... couldve thrown a pre-kardashian tristan thompson in there to do his rodman thing.

MJ the GOAT was the driving force behind their dynasties.

Portland, Pheonix, or Utah wouldve all been the 6/6 if you replaced barkley, malone, and clyde with MJ.

[Soundwave]

horace grant was totally replaceable... couldve thrown a pre-kardashian tristan thompson in there to do his rodman thing.

MJ the GOAT was the driving force behind their dynasties.

Portland, Pheonix, or Utah wouldve all been the 6/6 if you replaced barkley, malone, and clyde with MJ.

I don't agree with "replacement player", he was a good player. That said Horace was a bit of a baby sometimes, wouldn't surprise me if he went running to Sam Smith to tell stories and got embarrassed that it was brought up in the doc.

Somebody was leaking it.

[Roundball_Rock]

The doc does given Pippen a lot of due.

It also fairly covers incidents in his career that weren't flattering to him. You can't just ignore those things. I think Pippen was hoping they'd just gloss over that or not cover it.

They didn't cover him being a MVP candidate. They didn't cover the Hue Hollins call that probably cost the Bulls a finals trip at minimum. They covered "the Migraine" but didn't cover the MJ quit game in the 89' ECF. They covered what they wanted. As Grant said:


"I have never seen a quote unquote No. 2 guy, as decorated as Scottie Pippen, portrayed so badly," Grant said when asked whether he thinks Pippen was portrayed fairly in the documentary, which detailed his decision not to play the final seconds of a 1994 playoff game.

"In terms of the migraine, in terms of the 1.[8] seconds, [Jordan calling him] selfish. I have never seen this in all of my life. ... Pip was out there in Game 6 [of the '98 Finals], could barely walk, getting knocked down on his back. Tried to do whatever he could to help that team. My point is, why was that 1.[8] seconds in the documentary, so-called documentary, about Pip?

"MJ wasn't even on the team. Why was that in there? We handled that that year really well as a team. Pip knows that he was wrong for doing it. ... Bill Cartwright stood up and said what he had to say, and then we handled it. It was over. It was over. We go on to take the Knicks to seven games. It was over. Why bring that up? That's my question to everybody out there who's listening."


Pretty sure Rodman hasn’t came out and criticized the doc but correct me if I’m wrong - he just defended Scottie and even said he should be holding his head higher then Jordan in this documentary.

Splitting hairs. If the doc was fine in his view, no need for Rodman to speak out.

As you said, it was a MJ documentary but they couldn't resist taking shots at the team minus MJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kind of a dumb game for Phil to play if it ultimately contributed to Jordan's retirement. Unless he had some forsight of the future where he knew Jordan would come back in 18 months, you're playing with fire.

To be honest it's not like Jordan sounded bitter or anything he just casually says Horace was the source.

Who knows what Phil thought. Just been hearing Sports Radio saying he could've played a part.


Pro sports should be tough, I don't really have a big problem with that type of stuff. The 80s/90s was not as sensitive as things are now either.

What the 'snitching'? Or nobody standing up to Jordan? I know covid's fukked with people's heads, but both are a problem. Anywhere and anytime.

[SATAN]

He wasn't the only one either. Been hearing Phil's name pop up A LOT. Makes sense too. He loved drama and its followed him everywhere he went.

Still laughing @ Grant not eating that entire ride :oldlol: Nobody stood up to Jordan or for Horace. Pathetic.

Even more pathetic are your attempts at playing down what an asshole MJ is/was. As if a bunch of dudes are going to throw fists 35,000 up in the air. Grow up.

[SATAN]

The 80s/90s was not as sensitive as things are now either.

Yeah right. These petty pricks are still mad at each other to this day. Still talking shit about each other. Not sensitive? Get ****in' real.

[Soundwave]

They didn't cover him being a MVP candidate. They didn't cover the Hue Hollins call that probably cost the Bulls a finals trip at minimum. They covered "the Migraine" but didn't cover the MJ quit game in the 89' ECF. They covered what they wanted. As Grant said:





Splitting hairs. If the doc was fine in his view, no need for Rodman to speak out.

As you said, it was a MJ documentary but they couldn't resist taking shots at the team minus MJ.

If you're talking about 1989 ECF Game 5 ... you might actually want to look at Scottie Pippen's stat line for that game. If Jordan quit then Pippen didn't even show up.

Game 5 '89 ECF - 7 points
Game 6 '89 ECF (series clincher) - 0 points

Game 7 '90 ECF - 2 points

If anything the documentary is kind of glosses over that Pippen had basically multiple no shows in 89 and 90, it wasn't just one "migraine game" like the documentary would make you think.

[sdot_thadon]

Wow, interesting that guys aren't completely happy with portrayals and all. More in line with what you hear from made for tv mini series than documentaries tbh. Well wonder how much content this doc is gonna keep supplying past it's completion.....

[Soundwave]

Yeah right. These petty pricks are still mad at each other to this day. Still talking shit about each other. Not sensitive? Get ****in' real.

Nah too many pu**ies these days. Pro sports is not ice capades, if you can't deal with people not being nice to you sometimes or (gasp) being yelled at now and again, go take up fu*king knitting or something.

Even high school basketball shouldn't be like that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Even more pathetic are your attempts at playing down what an asshole MJ is/was. As if a bunch of dudes are going to throw fists 35,000 up in the air. Grow up.

Playing down? Look a post above you, dumb shit.

I don't condone that behavior at all. Not saying they need to put hands on each other either. What I am saying is, no self respecting man is gonna be told they CANT eat. I'm either grubbing or making sure Jordan isn't getting a plate either.

If you got a problem with that, you're probably a big p*ssy.

[SATAN]

Nah too many pu**ies these days. Pro sports is not ice capades, if you can't deal with people not being nice to you sometimes or (gasp) being yelled at now and again, go take up fu*king knitting or something.

Even high school basketball shouldn't be like that.

Seems like you're making up scenes in your head.

[Soundwave]

Playing down? Look a post above you, dumb shit.

I don't condone that behavior at all. Not saying they need to put hands on each other either. What I am saying is, no self respecting man is gonna be told they CANT eat. I'm either grubbing or making sure Jordan isn't getting a plate either.

If you got a problem with that, you're probably a big p*ssy.

Some basic hazing of younger players happened all the time in pro sports. It probably still does. This is not a business for the faint of heart.

I've had a coach even a high school level flip over a breakfast table and we all got nothing to eat as a result one time.

Now that probably wouldn't fly today, but back then it was what it was, you didn't cry about it.

[SATAN]

Who's crying about anything??

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Some basic hazing of younger players happened all the time in pro sports. It probably still does. This is not a business for the faint of heart.

I've had a coach even a high school level flip over a breakfast table and we all got nothing to eat as a result one time.

Now that probably wouldn't fly today, but back then it was what it was, you didn't cry about it.

To rookies maybe. If Grant wasn't one, that was a BS move by Jordan.

Don't know why you're defending bitchass behavior. That's exactly what it was.

[Soundwave]

To rookies maybe. If Grant wasn't one, that was a BS move by Jordan.

Don't know why you're defending bitchass behavior. That's exactly what it was.

Sports aren't nice, Grant has said multiple times playing with Jordan made him a better player.

We live in a society now where everything has to be nice and friendly and everyone is coddled, and the fact is sports isn't like that really even now, but certainly wasn't in the 80s and 90s.

I think Jordan did push the limits of his teammates, but I also think he never went so far over the line. If you showed a backbone, he would back off. If you didn't, well the guys on other teams were going to make you sorry you ever put on a uniform.

[guy]

They didn't cover him being a MVP candidate.

Pretty sure Phil called him the best player in the league and Steve Kerr said something along those lines as well. They didn't need to use the phrase "MVP" to get that point across.


They didn't cover the Hue Hollins call that probably cost the Bulls a finals trip at minimum.

Wow, thats quite the stretch.:oldlol: - which is probably why they didn't mention it. Its one thing if they went in depth game by game for the series like they did for some of the other series, but they didn't.



They covered "the Migraine"

It was literally everyone's first game 7, and their first chance to actually get to the Finals. And that was the dominating storyline coming out of the game. What do you expect?



but didn't cover the MJ quit game in the 89' ECF.

Because its only internet troll overexaggerations that that was some huge quit job. Other then in the Jordan rules book, no one back then or even up to today make that big of a deal out of this game - not even the biggest Lebron supporters/Jordan detractors in the media. The point of the series was told - the Pistons implemented the Jordan rules and it worked.




Splitting hairs. If the doc was fine in his view, no need for Rodman to speak out.

Did he go out of his way to speak out or was he asked about it, which plenty of Bulls players have been asked to do a number of media appearances for this documentary.



As you said, it was a MJ documentary but they couldn't resist taking shots at the team minus MJ.

Only sensitive bitches think those were taking shots vs just telling the story.

Horace makes it seem like they didn't even mention Pippen's playing with a bad back in the 98 finals and just went over the bad stuff. After Jordan's performance, it was the biggest storyline of that game they covered. Its almost like he didn't watch.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, interesting that guys aren't completely happy with portrayals and all. More in line with what you hear from made for tv mini series than documentaries tbh. Well wonder how much content this doc is gonna keep supplying past it's completion...

This was a puff piece for one player (whose people produced the "documentary") so I am not surprised other players on the team are calling BS on it. Inevitably the other players had to be made to look bad to some degree to pump up Jordan.


If you're talking about 1989 ECF Game 5 ..

Jordan quit, Collins' issues with him did not even come up in the "so-called documentary" as Horace says. :oldlol:


Game 6 '89 ECF (series clincher) - 0 points

Damn, 0 points in 1 minute! :mad: The "doc" covered the migraine but not the concussion. A concussion doesn't sound as bad in this day and age where you have superstars writing books about concussions. Migraine, doe!

Jordan couldn't "will his way" I guess. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sports aren't nice, Grant has said multiple times playing with Jordan made him a better player.

We live in a society now where everything has been nice and friendly, and the fact is sports isn't like that really even now, but certainly wasn't in the 80s and 90s.

Nobody is saying they are.

I'm talking about a single incident. Don't conflate one thing with another.

If anything...Horace was too nice about it. And now he is trying to save face.

[sdot_thadon]

Sports aren't nice, Grant has said multiple times playing with Jordan made him a better player.

We live in a society now where everything has to be nice and friendly and everyone is coddled, and the fact is sports isn't like that really even now, but certainly wasn't in the 80s and 90s.

Sports is sports but we're talking about men here, Grant shouldn't have took that in any way. Shit I imagine there would have been a beat report about me taking time off to deal with "personal matters" after attempting to get my air Jordan out of his ass.....

[SATAN]

Sports aren't nice, Grant has said multiple times playing with Jordan made him a better player.

We live in a society now where everything has to be nice and friendly and everyone is coddled, and the fact is sports isn't like that really even now, but certainly wasn't in the 80s and 90s.




Being assholes to people in real life doesn't make anyone better at all. I'm not sure why you are even comparing that. If people being friendly upsets you, you might have issues.

[Soundwave]

Nobody is saying they are.

I'm talking about a single incident. Don't conflate one thing with another.

What are the specifics of that incident? Horace Grant missed a meal?

How does Sam Smith know this?

[Roundball_Rock]

Horace Grant had issues with Jordan. So did other players. Let's not try to pin this on Horace when the common denominator was Jordan.

[Soundwave]

Being assholes to people in real life doesn't make anyone better at all. I'm not sure why you are even comparing that. If people being friendly upsets you, you might have issues.

People don't respond to overly nice people. Maybe they should but I've noticed even with bosses who are "too nice", people start to resent them after a while, whereas a more stern personality gets more respect.

People who are too nice often don't get anything done.

[Roundball_Rock]

People don't respond to overly nice people. Maybe they should but I've noticed even with bosses who are "too nice", people start to resent them after a while, whereas a more stern personality gets more respect.

Not in my experience. When I operated like MJ my co-workers tuned me out; when I took a mentoring role suddenly I walked on water even though I was trying to achieve the same results for the team.

As to bosses, I have seem some really hardass bosses. What happened to them? The staff undermined them and waited them out. They did not succeed in executing their agenda.

Now the first context was in a campaign and the other in government (so you can wait the term out in theory for the #1 and his deputy) but that's what I have seen. Maybe it is different in the corporate world.

[SATAN]

People don't respond to overly nice people. Maybe they should but I've noticed even with bosses who are "too nice", people start to resent them after a while, whereas a more stern personality gets more respect.

People who are too nice often don't get anything done.

From a personal stand point I couldn't disagree more. I ****ing can't stand "stern" bosses, let alone respect them acting like assholes. Most workers talk shit about them behind their back. Fear of being homeless comes into play. Bosses who create a positive work environment get way more ACTUAL respect imo. Agree to disagree on this stupid conversation.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What are the specifics of that incident? Horace Grant missed a meal?

How does Sam Smith know this?

Hold up. You're debating something you don't know details on?

Bunch of clown ass posters on ISH :lol

[Soundwave]

Not in my experience. When I operated like MJ my co-workers tuned me out; when I took a mentoring role suddenly I walked on water.

As to bosses, I have seem some really hardass bosses. What happened to them? The staff undermined them and waited them out. They did not succeed in executing their agenda.

Now the first context was in a campaign and the other in government (so you can wait the term out in theory) but that's what I have seen.

The fact is a lot of high achievers have the same traits. Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, James Cameron, etc. etc. are not cuddly teddy bears all the time.

Women aren't attracted to nice push overs. Kids respond more to teacher's that are stern and can get quickly out of control with a push over teacher.

It's probably an evolutionary thing in human development.

It's probably more about balance, you have to be able to strike a balance between being tough and still accommodating in the long run.

Sports is a harsh environment, it's not "normal life", you can't act the way Bobby Knight was famous for any more, but he won and that was OK back then.

There's stuff from the 90s/2000s that was OK/common place back then in sports, even like high school level that you can't really do now.

[Roundball_Rock]

To Satan's post, the staff retaliated by leaking negative stuff to the press in my office. Playing nice would have been the better play.


The fact is a lot of high achievers have the same traits. Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, James Cameron, etc. etc. are not cuddly teddy bears all the time.

That is why I caveated my experience. If you work for Steve Jobs or Disney he is going to be there as long as he wants, in effect. You have to accept it or leave. If you work for an elected official there is a specified expiration date if that official loses. The way staff can help an elected official lose is leaking to the press and by undermining their agenda so they have less achievements to tout. That is what happened.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rockball.

The hardass routine rarely works outside of sports. Not anymore with harassment and metoo being at the forefront.

A boss who's matter of fact and ALL about the bottom-line is the best one. It is possible to be that way...without being an insufferable jackass. You won't be the most liked, but will get the respect and results.

The former leads to a number of problems. People will eventually tune you out.

[Roundball_Rock]

It worked so great for Jordan in Washington without Pippen, Jackson, and Cartwright there, right? :lol His shtick only worked if other leaders were there to clean up the damage Jordan did to morale.

There is a reason leadership lessons don't involve "Tell everyone how much they suck!".

[3ball]

Show me an instance where MJ bullied Pippen.

Pippen was the one guy he DIDN'T bully.. He infact babied Pippen and gave him a pass on everything

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It worked so great for Jordan in Washington without Pippen, Jackson, and Cartwright there, right? :lol His shtick only worked if other leaders were there to limit the damage he did to morale.

Told you before those players tuned out Jordan in Washington. He was no longer 'AIR' Jordan. And to some of them, no better as a player.

But again. That type of leadership doesn't work outside of sports. Not anymore anyway.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans can deflect all they want. We have Grant, Rodman, Pippen making statements directly or indirectly about the "doc" being biased.

Where are the statements from players praising how awesome it was? Or coaches?


I had told you those players tuned out Jordan in Washington. He was no longer 'AIR' Jordan. And to some of them, no better as a player.

He was "Da GOAT." In Chicago he was just a ballhog to guys like Grant at that point in his career.

Kerr said on The Jump they needed Pippen to offset Jordan's, um, "style". Of course, that did not make the "documentary." :lol

[tpols]

Show me an instance where MJ bullied Pippen.

Pippen was the one guy he DIDN'T bully.. He infact babied Pippen and gave him a pass on everything

thats partly because he knew everybody else on the team was totally expendable except for pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ stans can deflect all they want. We have Grant, Rodman, Pippen making statements directly or indirectly about the "doc" being biased.

Where are the statements from players praising how awesome it was? Or coaches?



He was "Da GOAT." In Chicago he was just a ballhog to guys like Grant at that point in his career.

He was also their peer. I'm telling you straight up, they resented Mike because he no longer could back it up.

Read the piece on Chris Broussard. Who covered the team.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/13/chris-broussard-wizards-players-hated-playing-with-michael-jordan/
https://youtu.be/leCdpGaVmQo

[3ball]

MJ stans can deflect all they want. We have Grant, Rodman, Pippen making statements directly or indirectly about the "doc" being biased.

Where are the statements from players praising how awesome it was? Or coaches?



He was "Da GOAT." In Chicago he was just a ballhog to guys like Grant.

Grant said his career wouldn't be anything without Mike.. he's just mad that jordan outed him as the whistleblower, and gave a politician-sounding denial, aka "Smith and a are great friends, blah blah blah blah"

Btw, the offense ran through jordan. He was the biggest scorer, playmaker and defender on the bulls.. he did everything the most except rebounding.. Pippen barely averaged equal assists and people struggle to compliment him

[Jay-B]

MJ the GOAT on the court, but damn off the court, his street cred is extremely weak and tarnished. He should of never mentioned players hanging with women, weed, and coke like that.

[PoutinPippin]

:oldlol:

And wtf, Grant wasn't there for the 2nd 3peat, he was there though to kick Jordan's ass to the curb in '95, he beasted that series
31 ppg, 7 rpg, 4 apg on 48% >>> 18 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 65%

Are you kidding me?

[3ball]

thats partly because he knew everybody else on the team was totally expendable except for pippen.

He also knew Pippen couldn't handle it, while grant could

So he coddled the right guy.. he wasn't just a bully - he wasn't gifted ready-made stars like everyone else - only mj had to grow single-digit rookies to all-star to win

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was always their peer. That is one of the funny things: people talk about MJ like he was their boss in Chicago. He wasn't. When Cartwright, Parish, or Grant stood up to him there was nothing "alpha alpha" MJ could do about it.

[1987_Lakers]

Show me an instance where MJ bullied Pippen.

Pippen was the one guy he DIDN'T bully.. He infact babied Pippen and gave him a pass on everything

MJ was insecure about his peniz size, he knew Pippen had a bigger package, as evident by the book Jordan Rules. MJ, Horace Grant, & Pippen all got their baby sons naked to see which one had the biggest peniz, Pippen's son won (This is actually in the book). This was only confirmed when Madonna chose Pippen over MJ.

According to Bulls assistant coach Johnny Bach, “that killed Michael…you should have seen the girls Pippen had waiting for him everywhere he went.” One of those girls was apparently Madonna, who would pick up Scottie in a limo complete with a hot tub.
Since he didn’t like Pippen spending “quality” time with the most famous woman on earth, Jordan used to tell Madonna he could satisfy her better than Pippen to which Madonna apparently replied, “not a chance”.

[SouBeachTalents]

The fact is a lot of high achievers have the same traits. Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, James Cameron, etc. etc. are not cuddly teddy bears all the time.

Women aren't attracted to nice push overs. Kids respond more to teacher's that are stern and can get quickly out of control with a push over teacher.

It's probably an evolutionary thing in human development.

It's probably more about balance, you have to be able to strike a balance between being tough and still accommodating in the long run.

Sports is a harsh environment, it's not "normal life", you can't act the way Bobby Knight was famous for any more, but he won.

There's stuff from the 90s/2000s that was OK/common place back then in sports, even like high school level that you can't really do now.
You keep equating being nice with being a pussay, they aren't always correlated. And you can be an effective leader without being an asshole, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

And harsh environment? Please :oldlol: They get paid millions of dollars to play a children's game for 2-3 hours a night. Working 8+ hours a day as a prison guard, in a coal mine, working construction in the elements, those are harsh environments, and they get paid a fraction what athletes do

[97 bulls]

They didn't cover him being a MVP candidate. They didn't cover the Hue Hollins call that probably cost the Bulls a finals trip at minimum. They covered "the Migraine" but didn't cover the MJ quit game in the 89' ECF. They covered what they wanted. As Grant said:





Splitting hairs. If the doc was fine in his view, no need for Rodman to speak out.

As you said, it was a MJ documentary but they couldn't resist taking shots at the team minus MJ.

It's not just that. I wished Pippen would've got some credit for the Knicks series in 93. He outplayed Jordan. And thus saved the 3pt.

Or how in 92 in game 6 when Jackson sat down all the starters but Pip and the Bulls were down double digits going into the 4th and Pippen led them back into the game. The same thing happend in 97 vs Utah

Or Pippens defense on Mark Jackson in the 98 ECF.

Or Pippens defense in the 98 Finals and how he spearheaded that game 3 and how he was the front-runner for the MVP until he was injured.

Or how dominant Rodman was vs Seattle.

Why were these important aspects of that run left out?

[SATAN]

MJ was insecure about his peniz size, he knew Pippen had a bigger package, as evident by the book Jordan Rules. MJ, Horace Grant, & Pippen all got their baby sons naked to see which one had the biggest peniz, Pippen's son won (This is actually in the book). This was only confirmed when Madonna chose Pippen over MJ.

According to Bulls assistant coach Johnny Bach, “that killed Michael…you should have seen the girls Pippen had waiting for him everywhere he went.” One of those girls was apparently Madonna, who would pick up Scottie in a limo complete with a hot tub.
Since he didn’t like Pippen spending “quality” time with the most famous woman on earth, Jordan used to tell Madonna he could satisfy her better than Pippen to which Madonna apparently replied, “not a chance”.

:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ was always their peer. That is one of the funny things: people talk about MJ like he was their boss in Chicago. He wasn't. When Cartwright, Parish, or Grant stood up to him there was nothing "alpha alpha" MJ could do about it.

Not true. Those guys grew up watching Jordan play. So no, he was NOT "always their peer".

You're desperate looking for something that isn't there. Mike's routine worked in the past, because he was the best player ALIVE. And because it was in a sports bubble.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's not just that. I wished Pippen would've got some credit for the Knicks series in 93. He outplayed Jordan. And thus saved the 3pt.

Or how in 92 in game 6 when Jackson sat down all the starters but Pip and the Bulls were down double digits going into the 4th and Pippen led them back into the game. The same thing happend in 97 vs Utah

Or Pippens defense on Mark Jackson in the 98 ECF.

Or Pippens defense in the 98 Finals and how he spearheaded that game 3 and how he was the front-runner for the MVP until he was injured.

Or how dominant Rodman was vs Seattle.

Why were these important aspects of that run left out?

Great points. They managed to sneak in Pippen's low points but zero about his high points. That is part of what Rodman, Grant, Pippen himself have recognized.

The sad thing is the media is so busy sucking MJ off that being a sham documentary doesn't matter.

[Duncan21formvp]

Great points. They managed to sneak in Pippen's low points but zero about his high points. That is part of what Rodman, Grant, Pippen himself have recognized.

The sad thing is the media is so busy sucking MJ off that being a sham documentary doesn't matter.

Did you watch it?

[3ball]

MJ was always their peer. That is one of the funny things: people talk about MJ like he was their boss in Chicago. He wasn't. When Cartwright, Parish, or Grant stood up to him there was nothing "alpha alpha" MJ could do about it.

How many 7-footers did lebron challenge

MJ made sure he was getting the best out of would-be slankers Horace and Cartwright. Only Parish could disregard MJ

[3ball]

Great points. They managed to sneak in Pippen's low points but zero about his high points. That is part of what Rodman, Grant, Pippen himself have recognized.

The sad thing is the media is so busy sucking MJ off that being a sham documentary doesn't matter.

What are Pippen's high points in the playoffs without mj

And how does that compare to costing MJ 4 rings (88-90', 95'), including the most legendary chokes of all time

[1987_Lakers]

How many 7-footers did lebron challenge

MJ made sure he was getting the best out of would-be slankers Horace and Cartwright. Only Parish could disregard MJ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdYrAv-EIwk

He challanged them on the court, meanwhile MJ was getting body bagged by Divac in the '91 Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ made sure he was getting the best out of would-be slankers Horace and Cartwright

Based on what? Both those guys had their best years away from MJ. :oldlol:


Did you watch it?

I watched 8 of 10 episodes. It lost credibility and the benefit of the doubt so no point watching MJ getting DS'ed for 2 more hours.

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdYrAv-EIwk

He challanged them on the court, meanwhile MJ was getting body bagged by Divac in the '91 Finals.

Pippen got body-baggee by everyone, even hobbled worthy

[Goldrush25]

Barkley can take a shot at MJ and it's okay?

I'm sure if we saw the replay, that Barkley wasn't just "doing his job"... He probably added extra attitude and sneering as he delighted in stomping on executive MJ.. Barkley proved he wasn't a true friend to MJ in that moment.

As for Horace - MJ wins him 6 rings and this is how you repay him?.. ungrateful, replaceable player.. ultimately, MJ won with 3 different starting PF's in the playoffs - Horace, Rodman, Kukoc (he was the starter in 98' PO)



"Wins him 6 rings?"

First of all Horace was there for 3 of them. Second Jordan was getting bent over regularly by the Pistons and Celtics before Grant showed up.

[Roundball_Rock]

"Wins him 6 rings?"

First of all Horace was there for 3 of them. Second Jordan was getting bent over regularly by the Pistons and Celtics before Grant showed up.

All these MJ Ds'ers. What did MJ do before Pippen and Grant got there?

Fact check on the 91' Finals and 3ball:

Pippen 21/9/7 and defending Magic
Worthy 19/3/2 and none of that defense stuff

[PoutinPippin]

How did Mike snitch? :oldlol:

I don’t think people know the meaning of the word.

It was known the 70s / early 80s NBA at large was a coked out league. People knew the Bulls were like that besides Mike especially. He

named no names. Merely laughing at and describing an absurd compromising situation after an interviewer was asking about it.

[Roundball_Rock]

How did Mike snitch? :oldlol:

:lol

[juju151111]

It's not just that. I wished Pippen would've got some credit for the Knicks series in 93. He outplayed Jordan. And thus saved the 3pt.

Or how in 92 in game 6 when Jackson sat down all the starters but Pip and the Bulls were down double digits going into the 4th and Pippen led them back into the game. The same thing happend in 97 vs Utah

Or Pippens defense on Mark Jackson in the 98 ECF.

Or Pippens defense in the 98 Finals and how he spearheaded that game 3 and how he was the front-runner for the MVP until he was injured.

Or how dominant Rodman was vs Seattle.

Why were these important aspects of that run left out?
Idk what you smoking but Pippen didn't outplay Mj in any series. Also Grant been snitching since the 90s. Alot of people just don't remember because yall don't do your research. When he left the bulls he said Phil use to bully him, went crazy on Mj cause he didn't go to the white house, said his only friend on the team was Pippen lol what does roundball call it Revisionist History. Yall Pippen fans man

[Stanley Kobrick]

:lol
wait a sec, is that the same user who defended Michaels genitalia size and faked being a AAU coach? he seems very insecure about rewriting another persons history

[juju151111]

Great points. They managed to sneak in Pippen's low points but zero about his high points. That is part of what Rodman, Grant, Pippen himself have recognized.

The sad thing is the media is so busy sucking MJ off that being a sham documentary doesn't matter.

what was sham about it

[Roundball_Rock]

Idk what you smoking but Pippen didn't outplay Mj in any series.

The "doc" didn't show it but Pippen saved the Bulls while MJ was shooting 34% outside of the one game in the 93' ECF they covered.


Also Grant been snitching since the 90s. Alot of people just don't remember because yall don't do your research. When he left the bulls he said Phil use to bully him, went crazy on Mj cause he didn't go to the white house

None of that is snitching. Snitching is called your entire team drug addicts in a "doc".

[juju151111]

How did Mike snitch? :oldlol:

I don’t think people know the meaning of the word.

It was known the 70s / early 80s NBA at large was a coked out league. People knew the Bulls were like that besides Mike especially. He

named no names. Merely laughing at and describing an absurd compromising situation after an interviewer was asking about it.

he snitched on Horace, but didn't snotch on his teammates coke situation. Horace snitched first in the 90s though

[juju151111]

The "doc" didn't show it but Pippen saved the Bulls while MJ was shooting 34% outside of the one game in the 93' ECF they covered.



None of that is snitching. Snitching is called your entire team drug addicts in a "doc".

thats literally snitching on your coach. Saying he miss treats his players. Saying that his team bullied him. Basically throwing the whole organization under the bus. Chicago hated him. He literally was talking big shit when he left about being appreciated all kinds of shit. This man been snitching now he crying cause he damn well knew he gave sam that info.

I don't need no Doc to show me anything. I watched the 93 series and Mj was the best player in that series

[Roundball_Rock]

34% in 5 of 6 games of a series is being the best player in a series?

[juju151111]

34% in 5 of 6 games of a series is being the best player in a series?

MJ gamerscore 24.4 Pippen gamerscore 15.7
Thsts one of Mj best defensive series and he had higher Drtg than Pippen

Mj 32,7,6.2, 2.5 40% n 40% from 3 with bad wrist Pippen- 22.5,6.7, 4,1.7 51% n 37% from 3

[Roundball_Rock]

It was skewed by one big game. Jordan struggled through the first 3 games and then made 0 field goals in the final 22 minutes of Game 6.


EYE OF THE STORM
A VERSATILE STAR LED THE BULLS TO A 4-2 ELIMINATION OF THE KNICKS, AND HE WASN'T NAMED JORDAN

Pippen step into the temporary vacuums left by the sometimes physically exhausted and mentally overburdened Jordan (page 13). For the first time in Chicago's three successive marches into the NBA Finals, in fact, a Bull other than Jordan would have deserved to be named MVP in a playoff series, were such an honor awarded for a series other than the Finals.

During the decisive Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, for example, it was not Jordan who made the big second-half shots but Pippen, he of the supposedly crumbling-cookie composure. When the Knicks, having almost eliminated a seven-point deficit, threatened to steal the game late in the fourth period, two Pippen jumpers with the shot clock almost at zero bailed out the Bulls. The first came from the deep right corner just after Pippen had flashed a smirk at Knick superfan Spike Lee, sitting at courtside. The second, a three-pointer from beyond the top of the key, was followed by Pippen's raising his index finger and glancing at Starks with another Were you there? expression on his face. Boy, the Knicks must've felt like killing Pippen.

That was probably Pippen's most iconic offensive playoff moment as a Bull. Too bad the "doc" excluded it.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/14/eye-of-the-storm-a-versatile-star-led-the-bulls-to-a-4-2-elimination-of-the-knicks-and-he-wasnt-named-jordan

[Soundwave]

The doc would be like 90 hours if they went into every time a player had a bad couple of games.

The migraine situation was a unique kind of situation so it did get mentioned. It's a well known part of the Bulls history has been for decades it's not like they just now sprung that on Scottie.

Stuff like Brian Williams outplaying Dennis Rodman or Rodman having a mediocre '98 Finals for example doesn't really get attention.

93 Knicks series wasn't Jordan's best, but he did pick up his assist totals in the later half of the series, had a 54 point game and a triple double game that series.

If that's a "bad series" then the standards on such a player are pretty high.

[juju151111]

It was skewed by one big game. Jordan struggled through the first 3 games and then made 0 field goals in the final 22 minutes of Game 6.



https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/14/eye-of-the-storm-a-versatile-star-led-the-bulls-to-a-4-2-elimination-of-the-knicks-and-he-wasnt-named-jordan

im not going to take out games out of a series because you want to pretend it didn't happen so Pippen stats can look better. Literally noting points to Pippen having the better series. Gamerscore-Mj Offensive rating-Mj Defensive rating-Mj. Lmfao ������ These Pippen fans trying to omit games to fit their narrative ��. Man this shit is hilarious.

[juju151111]

The doc would be like 90 hours if they went into every time a player had a bad couple of games.

The migraine situation was a unique kind of situation so it did get mentioned. It's a well known part of the Bulls history has been for decades it's not like they just now sprung that on Scottie.

Stuff like Brian Williams outplaying Dennis Rodman or Rodman having a mediocre '98 Finals for example doesn't really get attention.

93 Knicks series wasn't Jordan's best, but he did pick up his assist totals in the later half of the series, had a 54 point game and a triple double game that series.

If that's a "bad series" then the standards on such a player are pretty high.

MJ gamerscore 24.4 Pippen gamerscore 15.7
Thsts one of Mj best defensive series and he had higher Drtg than Pippen

Mj 32,7,6.2, 2.5 40% n 40% from 3 with bad wrist Pippen- 22.5,6.7, 4,1.7 51% n 37% from 3

This is the so called series Pippen outplayed him

[Soundwave]

MJ gamerscore 24.4 Pippen gamerscore 15.7
Thsts one of Mj best defensive series and he had higher Drtg than Pippen

Mj 32,7,6.2, 2.5 40% n 40% from 3 with bad wrist Pippen- 22.5,6.7, 4,1.7 51% n 37% from 3

This is the so called series Pippen outplayed him

Even if its the case this argument that Jordan was never allowed ever to have an average (by his standards) playoff round is dumb ... every great player has playoff rounds that weren't the most flattering.

It's part of playing pro sports.

If that's the metric you want to use fine, now show me where Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Hakeem, Duncan were great in every series they ever played.

You also can't just say "I'm going to ignore the best game a guy played in a series and then base his FG% on that".

[Roundball_Rock]

The reason it comes up is because of how the media presents MJ. He always put up 35/8/7 on 74%. He never missed a shot in the clutch. Etc.

Game 7 was a medical condition; Game 5 was a player willingly quitting for 48 minutes because he wanted to keep ball hogging. A legitimate doc would have covered it.

[Soundwave]

The reason it comes up is because of how the media presents MJ. He always put up 35/8/7 on 74%. He never missed a shot in the clutch. Etc.

Game 7 was a medical condition (Jordan's role in bullying him into playing was omitted from the "doc"); Game 5 was a player willingly quitting for 48 minutes. A legitimate doc would have covered it.

Even if they did so what?

Jordan did eventually destroy the Pistons.

He always got the last laugh virtually all the time, so you can't really spin this narrative, you're just desperately looking for "aha!" moments, every player has some below average playoff games now and again, that's not really a valid point anyone cares about.

It wasn't a pattern with Jordan. And they did make a big fuss about his Orlando turn over to Nick Anderson in the series and how he wasn't able to dominate that series in the same way.

Nobody ever said you can't ever have a down game or even series, that's not what sports is about. You're ultimately judged on how you respond when things like that happen. We know how Jordan responded in the end.

[Roundball_Rock]

If it isn't a big deal, why all the tall tales to obscure them?

95' came up to set up the "MJ saves the Bulls by himself" fairly tale story line. They didn't mention the Bulls had 2 all-NBA 1st team players, 2 top 5 in MVP voting players, 3 all-D 1st team defenders, the 6th MOY, and the COY, did they? :lol

[Soundwave]

If it isn't a big deal, why all the tall tales to obscure them?

95' came up to set up the "MJ saves the Bulls by himself" fairly tale story line. They didn't mention the Bulls had 2 all-NBA 1st team players, 2 top 5 in MVP voting players, 3 all-D 1st team defenders, the 6th MOY, and the COY, did they? :lol

They did actually point out that Rodman and Pippen had great seasons that year.

And Jordan was the best player in the league that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

They did actually point out that Rodman and Pippen had great seasons that year.

Really? What did they say ("people other than MJ did some stuff--but it was basically all MJ!"?

[Shogon]

Barkley can take a shot at MJ and it's okay?

I'm sure if we saw the replay, that Barkley wasn't just "doing his job"... He probably added extra attitude and sneering as he delighted in stomping on executive MJ.. Barkley proved he wasn't a true friend to MJ in that moment.

As for Horace - MJ wins him 6 rings and this is how you repay him?.. ungrateful, replaceable player.. ultimately, MJ won with 3 different starting PF's in the playoffs - Horace, Rodman, Kukoc (he was the starter in 98' PO)


MJ wins him 6 rings? Holy **** if that doesn't say it all about your gimmick troll account I don't even know what does.

That basically means you never watched a single Bulls game in the 90s and on top of that I'm fairly certain I know your other aliases. LOL.

[999Guy]

Barkley can take a shot at MJ and it's okay?

I'm sure if we saw the replay, that Barkley wasn't just "doing his job"... He probably added extra attitude and sneering as he delighted in stomping on executive MJ.. Barkley proved he wasn't a true friend to MJ in that moment.

As for Horace - MJ wins him 6 rings and this is how you repay him?.. ungrateful, replaceable player.. ultimately, MJ won with 3 different starting PF's in the playoffs - Horace, Rodman, Kukoc (he was the starter in 98' PO)

Ugh, stop jocking this old man. Holy **** there’s nothing worse than a cult of personality.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ wins him 6 rings? Holy **** if that doesn't say it all about your gimmick troll account I don't even know what does.

That basically means you never watched a single Bulls game in the 90s and on top of that I'm fairly certain I know your other aliases. LOL.

Who are his other accounts? :lol

[juju151111]

If it isn't a big deal, why all the tall tales to obscure them?

95' came up to set up the "MJ saves the Bulls by himself" fairly tale story line. They didn't mention the Bulls had 2 all-NBA 1st team players, 2 top 5 in MVP voting players, 3 all-D 1st team defenders, the 6th MOY, and the COY, did they? :lol

They literally said Pippen had a great season and Pip literally on national tv was telling Mj to come back.

[juju151111]

Really? What did they say ("people other than MJ did some stuff--but it was basically all MJ!"?

5 mbps, 6 fmvp yes he going to get the large portion of the credit

[Roundball_Rock]

They literally said Pippen had a great season

Steve Kerr said he had a MVP caliber season. That was it. They focused on Jackson and the triangle.

[RogueBorg]

Some basic hazing of younger players happened all the time in pro sports. It probably still does. This is not a business for the faint of heart.

.

This kinda stuff was going on everywhere back then, even in the military, s--- happened all the time.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ is a weak person with weak character.


Horace exposed him here

[Turbo Slayer]

What are Pippen's high points in the playoffs without mj

And how does that compare to costing MJ 4 rings (88-90', 95'), including the most legendary chokes of all time No one needs you speaking bu!!s!ht here. Always tryna speak down on Pippen.

[ArbitraryWater]

Playing down? Look a post above you, dumb shit.

I don't condone that behavior at all. Not saying they need to put hands on each other either. What I am saying is, no self respecting man is gonna be told they CANT eat. I'm either grubbing or making sure Jordan isn't getting a plate either.

If you got a problem with that, you're probably a big p*ssy.

kuniva again focusing about something irrelevant with lack of details and feeling better about his manlihood lmaoo

[ArbitraryWater]

It worked so great for Jordan in Washington without Pippen, Jackson, and Cartwright there, right? :lol His shtick only worked if other leaders were there to clean up the damage Jordan did to morale.

There is a reason leadership lessons don't involve "Tell everyone how much they suck!".

Bingo.

His style is trash, it only works when you have clean-up guys who keep it together like Pip and Phil

[RogueBorg]

Great points. They managed to sneak in Pippen's low points but zero about his high points.

Not true, episode 2 was the Pippen episode.

Jordan stated, "Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen."

You probably didn't even watch the whole series and just making "stuff" up as you go.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/20/michael-jordan-whenever-they-speak-michael-jordan-they-should-speak-scottie-pippen/

[juju151111]

Steve Kerr said he had a MVP caliber season. That was it. They focused on Jackson and the triangle.

What Pippen himself literally said he went into that season has everyone can get a share of the pie. He saying everything was shared. Pippen talked too bri

[dazzer87]

Ho race the snitch........:lol

[FKAri]

MJ does come off as an uppity bitch. Not shocking he'd be the snitching type.

[bullettooth]

His career makes him look good, he doesn't need a documentary to do that.

If anything he doesn't need to show any of that stuff about him being harsh to teammates.

Pro sports should be tough in the locker room, it shouldn't be the freaking ice capades.

You're in a results oriented business, you're not there to make friends and eat cake.

Pretty soon coaches won't even be allowed to yell at a player because someone's poor feelings might be hurt (oh noez).

Makes sense that softy millennials are fans of LeBron.

[Manny98]

Makes sense that softy millennials are fans of LeBron.

You stan a literal snitch bro :lol

[86Celtics]

Not true, episode 2 was the Pippen episode.

Jordan stated, "Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen."

You probably didn't even watch the whole series and just making "stuff" up as you go.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/20/michael-jordan-whenever-they-speak-michael-jordan-they-should-speak-scottie-pippen/


He didn't watch the entire series. He said so himself a few posts back. I guess he missed the Bulls' athletic trainer singing Pippen's praises for him gutting it out in game 6 of the 98 Finals and the scenes with Pippen in the locker room getting worked on and with Pippen on the court playing, scoring and wincing in pain. I'm guessing that he also missed Jordan saying after the game that he was really scared when he saw Pippen hobble and being barely able to move. I suppose that wearing blinders would cause someone to miss things.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bingo.

His style is trash, it only works when you have clean-up guys who keep it together like Pip and Phil

Yup. How did it work during the time those guys were not around in CHI and DC?

[Hey Yo]

Because its only internet troll overexaggerations that that was some huge quit job. Other then in the Jordan rules book, no one back then or even up to today make that big of a deal out of this game - not even the biggest Lebron supporters/Jordan detractors in the media. The point of the series was told - the Pistons implemented the Jordan rules and it worked.
MJ avg. 23FGA through the first 4gms. Then all of a sudden only takes 8FGA.....in a game that could put you closer to a Finals appearance than you ever have??

Watch the game below and you'll hear the announcers pretty dumbfounded and a loss for words as to why MJ wasn't shooting. If Daly did implement something in game 5, then they must not have used it in game 6 seeing as MJ took 26FGA.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjM97EH5mnU&t=25s

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ avg. 23FGA through the first 4gms. Then all of a sudden only takes 8FGA.....in a game that could put you closer to a Finals appearance than you ever have??

Watch the game below and you'll hear the announcers pretty dumbfounded and a loss for words as to why MJ wasn't shooting. If Daly did implement something in game 5, then they must not have used it in game 6 seeing as MJ took 26FGA.

It is pretty obvious what happened: Collins asked MJ to stop hogging the ball, MJ threw a temper tantrum and quit on the team in protest.


Other then in the Jordan rules book

So "other than" being in the one book about the Bulls during that time period....

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ does come off as an uppity bitch. Not shocking he'd be the snitching type.

uppity bitch sums up MJ well

[dazzer87]

Meltdown from these Lebron stans............:lol

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. But his documentary ruined the reputations of some of his teammates. And even the late Jerry Krause. Krause looked like a douche, but he made a move of acquiring Rodman after the Magic eliminated them in the playoffs.

[Soundwave]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. But his documentary ruined the reputations of some of his teammates. And even the late Jerry Krause. Krause looked like a douche, but he made a move of acquiring Rodman after the Magic eliminated them in the playoffs.

If you're 12 years old and had no idea any of this stuff happened, maybe but there's nothing really new in this doc at all.

The things with Pippen did happen, and he's fortunate happened in the 1990s. If any star player refused to go into a game today or sabotaged his team on purpose by refusing to get surgery ... the media would be 100000000x more harsh about it today.

Regarding the Horace Grant thing, the fact is someone was leaking stories to Sam Smith. Horace Grant was close to Sam Smith.

Also saying someone "snitched" on you implies that you actually are guilty of what they're saying you did. That's the whole point of the term, lol.

You wouldn't say "so and so snitched on me" if you didn't even do anything to begin with.

It's interesting that Horace uses that terminology.

[Roundball_Rock]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. But his documentary ruined the reputations of some of his teammates. And even the late Jerry Krause. Krause looked like a douche, but he made a move of acquiring Rodman after the Magic eliminated them in the playoffs.

It was a puff piece with detours to attack Krause, Pippen, Grant, Drexler, and Zeke. Meanwhile Miller comes out smelling like a rose despite choking in the series. :lol


If any star player refused to go into a game today or sabotaged his team on purpose by refusing to get surgery ... the media would be 100000000x more harsh about it today.

Except this actually happened in the NFL and no one even remembers it.

Grant brought that up because it was a MJ doc. He wasn't even on the team. It is obvious why they put it there. MJ stans don't get it but Grant does.


Regarding the Horace Grant thing, the fact is someone was leaking stories to Sam Smith. Horace Grant was close to Sam Smith.

That proves nothing. Besides, Smith had to confirm "leaks". He can't go based on what one player said. The "doc" didn't cover it (a real documentary would have) but I bet there was a long line of players, coaches willing to dish out MJ's shenanigans to Smith.

[Soundwave]

It was a puff piece with detours to attack Krause, Pippen, Grant, Drexler, and Zeke. Meanwhile Miller comes out smelling like a rose despite choking in the series. :lol



Except this actually happened in the NFL and no one even remembers it.

Grant brought that up because it was a MJ doc. He wasn't even on the team. It is obvious why they put it there. MJ stans don't get it but Grant does.



That proves nothing. Besides, Smith had to confirm "leaks". He can't go based on what one player said. The "doc" didn't cover it (a real documentary would have) but I bet there was a long line of players, coaches willing to dish out MJ's shenanigans to Smith.

Yeah and who was he confirming it with then? If it was multiple people than likely it was some of the players.

It sounds like you probably never have actually played organized sports past a junior high level, but if you're on a team and a writer is suddenly getting stories about what's going on in the locker room and you see a player is particularly close to that writer, it's not out of line for another player to think that guy is a source.

[Soundwave]

Makes sense that softy millennials are fans of LeBron.

In 10-15 years you won't even be allowed to yell at players as a coach period because it will hurt their feelings too much.

[Roundball_Rock]

It was a hit job to settle scores or push agendas. Smith had to have had multiple sources. Instead of looking in the mirror and asking why so many of his teammates hated him he blames Horace Grant.

[Soundwave]

It was a hit job to settle scores or push agendas. Smith had to have had multiple sources. Instead of looking in the mirror and asking why so many of his teammates hated him he blames Horace Grant.

And one of those sources could have been Horace Grant. He probably has more to base that on than just a hunch, likely Horace was dumb enough to leak some stories that only he and couple of others could have known.

Either that or it was the simple fact that Grant seemed very close to Sam Smith.

[Roundball_Rock]

Only MJ would bitch about a player possibly being a source 30 years later instead of asking why players and coaches would want to leak negative information about him. The Bulls were like Murder on the Orient Express: almost everybody had a motive against Jordan. :lol

[Soundwave]

Only MJ would bitch about a player possibly being a source 30 years later instead of asking why players and coaches would want to leak negative information about him. The Bulls were like Murder on the Orient Express: almost everybody had a motive against Jordan. :lol

It's only a story because it's Michael Jordan, otherwise no one would care.

Even in the doc he doesn't "bitch" about it, he is asked about it and he just casually says he feels Horace was the one feeding Smith information and doesn't talk much more about it.

All this stuff is lame anyway, you guys getting your panties in a wad over nothing. Teams have arguements and friction all the time, the 80s Lakers had big problems between Norm Nixon and Magic Johnson hating each other for a while, Kareem being upset that Magic was given such a big contract early on, Magic demanding a trade out because he hated the coach, etc. etc.

The 90s era Houston Rockets would routinely get into fights/arguements on a weekly basis, lol.

Shaq/Kobe Lakers ... forget it, lol. That's a whole other level.

You need to have a very naive view of pro sports if you think it's all lollipops and rainbows. It isn't, that's part of what makes it great.

[bullettooth]

This thread is every Bran jock sniffers wet dream.

[3ball]

Why would MJ randomly say Horace told Sam Smith everything?

There's no legit motivation except that it was true

Otoh, Horace has motivation to say he wasn't the snitch - and it's easy to convince himself 30 years later that his dealings with smith were benign

[Leviathon1121]

This guy is so angry that Jordan is the consensus GOAT over Kareem that he latched onto LeBron, hoping he would dethrone Jordan. Now that Jordan is still overwhelmingly winning every poll taken he’s losing his mind. This is seriously so funny to watch.

[32jazz]

Grant also defended former teammate Scottie Pippen, who has not spoken publicly since the documentary began to air last month. As ESPN's Jackie MacMullan wrote earlier this month, Pippen has been stung by his portrayal in the documentary.

"I have never seen a quote unquote No. 2 guy, as decorated as Scottie Pippen, portrayed so badly," Grant said when asked whether he thinks Pippen was portrayed fairly in the documentary, which detailed his decision not to play the final seconds of a 1994 playoff game.

"In terms of the migraine, in terms of the 1.[8] seconds, [Jordan calling him] selfish. I have never seen this in all of my life. ... Pip was out there in Game 6 [of the '98 Finals], could barely walk, getting knocked down on his back. Tried to do whatever he could to help that team. My point is, why was that 1.[8] seconds in the documentary, so-called documentary, about Pip?

"MJ wasn't even on the team. Why was that in there? We handled that that year really well as a team. Pip knows that he was wrong for doing it. ... Bill Cartwright stood up and said what he had to say, and then we handled it. It was over. It was over. We go on to take the Knicks to seven games. It was over. Why bring that up? That's my question to everybody out there who's listening."
"

Kobe explicitly stated that this is the reason he no longer wanted to play with Shaq because he felt he was being belittled by fans/ media ( " carried by Shaq" & " can't win without Shaq" ). Kobe Bryant didn't want to be Pippened .


I now empathize more with Kyrie Irving for not wanting to play with LeBron because he would get the same treatment & belittlement of his potential accomplishments / career. All by fans/ media with this foolish GOAT rankings tearing down a players teammates to elevate another.
Kyrie isn't as great as Kobe or Pippen ,but I can understand him not wanting to be " Pippened" .

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe explicitly stated that this is the reason he no longer wanted to play with Shaq because he felt he was being belittled by fans/ media ( " carried by Shaq" & " can't win without Shaq" ). Kobe Bryant didn't want to be Pippened .


I now empathize more with Kyrie Irving for not wanting to play with LeBron because he would get the same treatment & belittlement of his potential accomplishments / career. All by fans/ media with this foolish GOAT rankings tearing down a players teammates to elevate another.
Kyrie isn't as great as Kobe or Pippen ,but I can understand him not wanting to be " Pippened" .

Especially when you see the ridiculous lengths people take it. For instance, every sane observer has Pippen>Miller but several people on ISH have argued (all MJ fans of course) that Miller>Pippen because Miller was the "#1 option" and Pippen the "#2 option." Never mind that Pippen was better and had a bigger role in his offense than Miller in Indiana's. All these simpletons see is "#1" and "#2."

So in that context you can see Kyrie thinking it would be better go to Boston and get credit for losing as a #1 instead of winning as a #2 because to a lot of fans losing as a #1>winning as a #2 (and to fans who value winning, Kyrie already had that box checked).

[Rico2016]

This probably maybe cannot be good for Mike and company. I wonder, just wonder, to what end will he go to.

[Duncan21formvp]

It's only a story because it's Michael Jordan, otherwise no one would care.

Even in the doc he doesn't "bitch" about it, he is asked about it and he just casually says he feels Horace was the one feeding Smith information and doesn't talk much more about it.

All this stuff is lame anyway, you guys getting your panties in a wad over nothing. Teams have arguements and friction all the time, the 80s Lakers had big problems between Norm Nixon and Magic Johnson hating each other for a while, Kareem being upset that Magic was given such a big contract early on, Magic demanding a trade out because he hated the coach, etc. etc.

The 90s era Houston Rockets would routinely get into fights/arguements on a weekly basis, lol.

Shaq/Kobe Lakers ... forget it, lol. That's a whole other level.

You need to have a very naive view of pro sports if you think it's all lollipops and rainbows. It isn't, that's part of what makes it great.

Great post! I remember Vernon Maxwell threw a literal brick at Gary Payton.

[97 bulls]

Kobe explicitly stated that this is the reason he no longer wanted to play with Shaq because he felt he was being belittled by fans/ media ( " carried by Shaq" & " can't win without Shaq" ). Kobe Bryant didn't want to be Pippened .


I now empathize more with Kyrie Irving for not wanting to play with LeBron because he would get the same treatment & belittlement of his potential accomplishments / career. All by fans/ media with this foolish GOAT rankings tearing down a players teammates to elevate another.
Kyrie isn't as great as Kobe or Pippen ,but I can understand him not wanting to be " Pippened" .

Great points.

[RogueBorg]

This guy is so angry that Jordan is the consensus GOAT over Kareem that he latched onto LeBron, hoping he would dethrone Jordan. Now that Jordan is still overwhelmingly winning every poll taken he’s losing his mind. This is seriously so funny to watch.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

Very enjoyable to watch

[Lebron23]

https://www.facebook.com/SidelineSources/videos/294665305043407

Damn. That was 2 years ago

[Spurs m8]

This guy is so angry that Jordan is the consensus GOAT over Kareem that he latched onto LeBron, hoping he would dethrone Jordan. Now that Jordan is still overwhelmingly winning every poll taken he’s losing his mind. This is seriously so funny to watch.

Dude is melting down every day lmao

[TheGoatest]

LeBron is a better player than jordon on the court, as well as a better person than jordon off the court. Both of these are indisputable facts.
The same goes for their offspring, by the way.

[Baller789]

LeBron is a better player than jordon on the court, as well as a better person than jordon off the court. Both of these are indisputable facts.
The same goes for their offspring, by the way.

The only indisputable fact here is that you have a dozen alts.

:oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

MJ is my favorite player all time and he's the best player I've ever seen but I could care less about defending his honor. I think it's pretty clear that he's an ass and he definitely lied and snitches. I don't know how anyone can defend that shit.

[SATAN]

He forgot to mention ballhog.

[Axe]

He's not a good franchise owner lmao.

[red1]

I believe him.

[HighFlyer23]

He's not a good franchise owner lmao.

The ***** cheated against an old lady in a game of cards