James Harden: Underappreciated Superstar? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Roundball_Rock

05-20-2020, 06:44 PM

Harden is a fascinating player to me. He has been a top 5 player for several years, been scoring at levels we have not seen since Jordan. Yet he is very polarizing. His playing style is annoying. He frequently is criticized for being ringless. Here are some facts to contextualize Harden. No matter how you slice it, we are watching an all-time great in his prime.

Prime Stats for HOF SG's

Harden (13’-20’): 30/6/8
Kobe (01’-13’): 28/6/5
Kobe (01’-10’): 29/6/5
Drexler (88’-95’): 23/7/6
West (62’-70’): 29/6/6
Wade (06’-11’): 27/5/7
Miller (90’-98’): 21/3/3
Jordan (87’-96’): 33/6/6
Gervin (78’-84’): 29/5/3
Iverson (99’-06’): 30/4/6

Prime Playoff Stats for HOF SG's

Harden (13’-19’): 28/6/7
Kobe (01’-10’): 29/6/5
Drexler (88’-95’): 23/7/7
West (62’-70’): 32/6/6
Wade (06’-11’): 27/6/5
Miller (90’-98’): 24/3/3
Jordan (87’-96’): 34/7/6
Gervin (78’-83’): 29/6/3
Iverson (99’-05’): 31/4/6

Harden through age 29 compared in accolades (since accolades are not available for this season, his age 30 season):

Accolades through Age 29 for HOF SG's

Harden: 1 MVP, 5 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP (2nd 3x)
Kobe: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-NBA, 6 top five MVP
Drexler: 0 MVP, 1 all-NBA 1st team, 4 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
West: 0 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 7 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP
Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
Miller: 0 MVP, 0 all-NBA 1st teams, 1 all-NBA, 0 top five MVP
Jordan: 3 MVP’s, 7 all-NBA 1st teams, 8 all-NBA, 7 top five MVP
Iverson: 1 MVP, 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 3 top five MVP

Harden compares very well to any player not named Jordan. He will likely record another all-NBA 1st team and another top 5 MVP voting finish this season, in addition to winning a third scoring title. (I excluded Gervin since he had a few ABA years.)

Harden Scoring Edge Compared

Harden 36 (George 28, Giannis 28). Harden +8.
Kobe 35 (Iverson 33, LeBron 31) Kobe +2.
Jordan 37 (Wilkins 29, English 29) Jordan +8.
Kareem 35 (Archibald 28, Havlicek 28). Kareem +7
Wilt 50 (Baylor 38, Bellamy 32) Wilt +12. Note Baylor didn’t technically qualify for the scoring title.

Harden’s scoring is overlooked. What he did, relative to other elite scorers, was more impressive than what Kobe did and comparable to what Jordan, Kareem did. Those other guys tend to be celebrated for those seasons but Harden’s flew a bit under the radar, relative to the quality of the accomplishment itself.

Roundball_Rock

05-20-2020, 06:45 PM

Harden against the Warriors

2015 WCF: 28/8/6 on 47%
2016 1st round: 27/5/8 on 41%
2018 WCF: 29/6/6 on 42%
2019 WCSF: 35/7/6 on 44%

How did other perimeter stars do against the same defense?

2016: Lillard 32/4/8 on 36%
2016: Durant 30/8/3 on 42%
2016: Westbrook 27/7/11 on 40%
2017: Lillard 28/5/3 on 43%
2018: Paul 20/7/5 on 41%
2019: Paul 17/7/6 on 44%
2019: Lillard 22/5/6 on 37%
2019: Leonard 29/10/4 on 43%

So Harden shot poorly against the Warriors--but so did everybody else. LeBron is the one major exception. He shot 40% in 15’ but shot well against the Warriors but LeBron is on another tier than these players so that is to be expected.

Did Houston underperform during the Harden years?

2013: tied for 11th in wins, 8th best SRS. Result: 1st round loss.
2014: tied for 5th in wins, 5th best SRS. Result: 1st round loss.
2015: tied for 3rd in wins, 7th in SRS. Result: WCF.
2016: tied for 17th in wins, 15th in SRS. Result: 1st round loss.
2017: 3rd most wins, 3rd in SRS. Result: 2nd round loss.
2018: 1st in wins, 1st in SRS. Result: WCF.
2019: tied for 5th in wins, 5th in SRS. Result: 2nd round loss.

The Rockets have generally performed up to par. They underachieved badly in 14’ but overachieved in 15’ in getting to the WCF. On paper 18’ was a disappointment but the consensus is the Warriors were the better team and Houston was up 3-2 before their second star got injured.

Win totals and SRS is not broken down by conference but generally the West was stronger so being “11th” or “8th” means you were in the lower half of the Western conference. Their second round losses were to superior teams: San Antonio (2nd in wins, 2nd in SRS) and the Warriors.

I don’t see much here to blame at Harden’s feet. His teams have consistently been good, they get about as far as their team strength would imply, and the losses we hear the most about have come against clearly better teams in each case. If you replaced Harden with another superstar not named LeBron would the results change materially? I don’t think so. Durant was having similar results in OKC with a second MVP player alongside him. Curry is better than Harden but not by light years. Westbrook is a lesser player than Harden who couldn’t win with Durant so it is hard to see him winning with Howard or Paul as his second star.

HBK_Kliq_2

05-20-2020, 07:15 PM

Harden is a great guy to put on a lottery team and say "Make this team win 50 games" because his offensive talent and ability to destroy poor defensive teams all season. In the playoffs he's always significantly worse and not reliable as a 1st option scorer. Multiple years under performing and he had one of the biggest meltdowns in history in game 7 WCF 2018, the year before in 2017 west semi finals he no showed game 6 and was blown out despite no Kawhi and I can go on and on.

As much PPG as Harden scores in the regular season, I actually think he would be much better suited as a 2nd option scorer and main playmaker instead. If he had a career like Manu Ginobli where he wasn't counted on to be clear cut 1st option scorer, he might have more success. The guy just flat out can't handle the pressure of being the best scorer on his team in the playoffs. I would say a good comparison in NFL for Harden is Peyton Manning: jaw dropping reg season stats but always lets you down in the playoffs

SATAN

05-20-2020, 08:24 PM

Imagine any other star with a decent shot being told to just go for your life, repetitively jack it up while we sit back and watch. His point numbers don't impress me much. I need to see him do well in a decent system before making any real judgement.

Roundball_Rock

05-20-2020, 10:31 PM

Multiple years under performing and he had one of the biggest meltdowns in history in game 7 WCF 2018, the year before in 2017 west semi finals he no showed game 6 and was blown out despite no Kawhi and I can go on and on.

Let's look at his logs in big games, which I am defining as legacy altering type games. These are usually key finals and WCF games but occasionally in the second round. I am going to look at his Houston tenure. In OKC he was good in the WCF but choked in the finals in 12'.

15' WCSF Game 5 26/11/10 45% (to stave off elimination)
15' WCSF Game 6 23/2/3 25%
15' WCSF Game 7 31/7/8 35%
15' WCF Game 4 45/9/5 59% (to stave off elimination)
15' WCF Game 5 14/6/5 18%

17' WCSF Game 6 10/3/7 18% (Rockets eliminated)

18' WCF Game 5 19/3/4 24% (Rockets take 3-2 lead)
18' WCF Game 6 32/7/9 42% (first game without CP)
18' WCF Game 7 32/6/6 41%

19' WCSF Game 6 35/8/5 44% (Rockets eliminated)

A few brilliant games but a lot of clunkers here. He seems to be getting a bit better, though, going by those last three game logs. His percentages don't sniff 50% but he never will because he takes so many 3's. He averaged 13 three pointers against GS in 19', 11 in 18', for example.

The above can't be sugar coated, though. This is a poor record for a player of his caliber. He is 30 so he has time to redeem himself. If he doesn't, this will always be the knock on him.

As much PPG as Harden scores in the regular season, I actually think he would be much better suited as a 2nd option scorer and main playmaker instead. If he had a career like Manu Ginobli where he wasn't counted on to be clear cut 1st option scorer, he might have more success

The irony is he started his career in a Manu-type role. It would have been interesting to see how things developed in OKC if they did not trade him. Talent eventually wins out so he would have gotten a bigger role over time but he would have been the 2nd option behind KD (maybe 3rd but I think Harden would have eclipsed Westbrook) so he wouldn't have anywhere near the sky high work load he has gotten in Houston.

I need to see him do well in a decent system before making any real judgement.

He had success before D'Antoni, just not the pinball numbers he has now. He was 26/5/6 and recorded two top 5 MVP finishes (including a 2nd) while making 3 all-NBA teams (two 1st) during his three seasons with McHale as coach.

With Bickerstaff he was 29/6/8, although he did not make all-NBA that year (he was 9th in MVP voting).

LoneyROY7

05-20-2020, 10:36 PM

5 starred. Repped.

https://media.giphy.com/media/43MXTKiGLaiJKNqHKx/giphy.gif

Lebron23

05-20-2020, 10:52 PM

If harden plays in the 1990's
He might beat one of jordan's teams in the 1990's. Harden is an offensive juggernaut.

j3lademaster

05-20-2020, 11:22 PM

Harden also leads the league by far with iso plays. He ISO’s 46% of the rockets possessions, to put that into perspective Westbrook ISO’s 25% And is 2nd by a huge margin and Lebron and Luka are 18% and 14% respectively. Most impressive part is Harden also leads in points per possession in iso situations, albeit only at 1.12 over 2nd, derozan at 1.11. But the disparity in volume is what makes it impressive. Harden averages 16 ppg from iso... 2nd is Westbrook at 6.6. Harden has a real case as the goat iso scorer, at least for the reg season. https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 12:08 AM

5 starred. Repped.

:cheers:

If harden plays in the 1990's
He might beat one of jordan's teams in the 1990's. Harden is an offensive juggernaut.

What do you think prime Harden does if he is on the Blazers instead of Drexler, is on the Sonics instead of Harden, and on the Knicks instead of Ewing? The Knicks would be intriguing. A dominant defense but a below average offense with Ewing. Harden would improve their offense significantly and they should have enough defense to mask his defensive deficiencies.

Harden also leads the league by far with iso plays. He ISO’s 46% of the rockets possessions, to put that into perspective Westbrook ISO’s 25% And is 2nd by a huge margin and Lebron and Luka are 18% and 14% respectively. Most impressive part is Harden also leads in points per possession in iso situations, albeit only at 1.12 over 2nd, derozan at 1.11. But the disparity in volume is what makes it impressive. Harden averages 16 ppg from iso... 2nd is Westbrook at 6.6. Harden has a real case as the goat iso scorer, at least for the reg season. https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/

Good info. :applause: Which players in history come close to his 46% as comps?

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 01:10 AM

Good info. :applause: Which players in history come close to his 46% as comps?Good question. the stat didn't start getting tracked until 2015, and it's interesting that iso%age goes lower and lower every year in favor of more pnr frequency (previous years would have a few guys in the 20's, with CP3 even having a season where he was at 29). If I had to guess we probably had a few mj, kobe, iverson and melo years in the 30's. Also it's weird to see that Lebron has very low iso efficiency(.92 ppp). I know he always got crap for his iso scoring skillset, but i've always thought of him as an effective scorer... but Giannis is only at .95 ppp, the guy who set the record for unassisted dunks.

It's also noteworthy that iso frequency consistently goes up in the playoffs. Guess that makes sense in a 7 game series and all your plays have been scouted to death. That's when iso-scoring becomes a much more valuable commodity, and Harden had a playoff ppp of 1.04 while isoing 47% of the time last year's playoffs which are still stellar numbers. But that's why we play and watch the games, it's obvious the lack of a midrange game is hurting him in clutch situations. points per possession is all well and good through the course of a game, but in crunch time you need to take the highest %age shot available to you and the shot that's the easiest to get with the highest %age is the old fashion midrange j. Example, normally a 33% 3 point shot is much better than a 42% 16footer, but if it's a 1 possession game and you NEED a basket you go with the highest percentage one. And that's when ppp doesn't tell the whole story and you can see it in the performances. You also see it when the Rockets give up leads late in games. You just need a basket to stop the bleeding but they're still insisting on just launching 3's.

FultzNationRISE

05-21-2020, 03:14 AM

Prime Stats for HOF SG's

Harden (13’-20’): 30/6/8
Kobe (01’-13’): 28/6/5
Kobe (01’-10’): 29/6/5
Drexler (88’-95’): 23/7/6
West (62’-70’): 29/6/6
Wade (06’-11’): 27/5/7
Miller (90’-98’): 21/3/3
Jordan (87’-96’): 33/6/6
Gervin (78’-84’): 29/5/3
Iverson (99’-06’): 30/4/6

Prime Playoff Stats for HOF SG's

Harden (13’-19’): 28/6/7
Kobe (01’-10’): 29/6/5
Drexler (88’-95’): 23/7/7
West (62’-70’): 32/6/6
Wade (06’-11’): 27/6/5
Miller (90’-98’): 24/3/3
Jordan (87’-96’): 34/7/6
Gervin (78’-83’): 29/6/3
Iverson (99’-05’): 31/4/6

Im not (only) saying this because I think Harden is an overrated loser, but cross-era statistical comparisons are pretty useless. The game is played in different ways in different eras. It’s no secret the league has made an overt point to increase scoring output in recent years, and players like Harden have been tremendous beneficiaries. Comparing Harden’s numbers to guys in other eras does not provide sufficient context.

Which is a problem compounded by the fact stats are ALL Harden has. When it comes to intangibles like heart, leadership, defense, etc he’s probably in the bottom 10% of all NBA players.

IMO, anyway.

ImKobe

05-21-2020, 03:29 AM

Harden's a candidate for the worst choker in Playoffs history. There's nothing underappreciated about him until he gets over the hump. Dude's nearly 31 and still hasn't got the Rockets to the Finals.

aj1987

05-21-2020, 04:25 AM

The one thing I appreciate about his is that he never complains about his teams or wanting more help.

With that being said, he's a massive choker in the PO's. Doesn't he have like 14 TOV's in an elimination game?

Phoenix

05-21-2020, 04:41 AM

He's one of the great regular season team carriers in recent memory, but the last 3-4 years we've just been waiting for him to bust through and validate his regular season numbers with a championship or at least get to the finals, and probably would have by now if not for the Warriors. Don't like his style, but that's immaterial to the discussion.

BigShotBob

05-21-2020, 05:15 AM

Unfortunately he's pedestrian in the post season.

So he's still overrated.

HylianNightmare

05-21-2020, 05:22 AM

He showed us he was a fraud last post season

LoneyROY7

05-21-2020, 05:47 AM

He showed us he was a fraud last post season

Last postseason where he averaged 35/7/6 on 44 percent against Golden State? Gotcha.

BigShotBob

05-21-2020, 06:49 AM

Last postseason where he averaged 35/7/6 on 44 percent against Golden State? Gotcha.

How many 4th quarter points when it mattered?

Oh....gotcha.

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 09:08 AM

the stat didn't start getting tracked until 2015, and it's interesting that iso%age goes lower and lower every year in favor of more pnr frequency (previous years would have a few guys in the 20's, with CP3 even having a season where he was at 29). If I had to guess we probably had a few mj, kobe, iverson and melo years in the 30's. Also it's weird to see that Lebron has very low iso efficiency(.92 ppp). I know he always got crap for his iso scoring skillset, but i've always thought of him as an effective scorer... but Giannis is only at .95 ppp,

Interesting. It is a shame we lack a lot of these advanced stats for past eras.

but cross-era statistical comparisons are pretty useless

Stats still have value because those are the players Harden will be judged against but they aren't perfect. That is why I included accolades. His accolades were surprisingly better than I expected. You could argue at age 29 he has better accolades than any SG outside of Jordan and Kobe.

It’s no secret the league has made an overt point to increase scoring output in recent years, and players like Harden have been tremendous beneficiaries

True but only Harden is scoring 36. Durant peaked at 32, LeBron 31, Wade 30, Carmelo 29, etc.

nothing underappreciated about him until he gets over the hump. Dude's nearly 31 and still hasn't got the Rockets to the Finals.

That is a team result. The made 2 WCF--they just ran into arguably the GOAT team.

The OP shows Houston has performed at or slightly above their ability. The "no ring" thing has no value unless people can put forward a case that another superstar in his place not named LeBron would have won. Durant couldn't win with Westbrook (as well as Harden) but would win with Howard or Paul? Doubt it.

He's one of the great regular season team carriers in recent memory, but the last 3-4 years we've just been waiting for him to bust through and validate his regular season numbers with a championship or at least get to the finals, and probably would have by now if not for the Warriors

Part of it is the conference imbalance. Houston has been the second best team in a couple seasons but has been in the same conference as the best team. If Houston was losing to the Warriors in the NBA finals instead of the WCF it would be perceived as better--although Houston would still be the same team on the court.

It should be noted he has made the finals--people just are selective in what does and doesn't count because of the "option" stuff.

he's pedestrian in the post season.

Pedestrian?

Prime Playoff Stats for HOF SG's

Harden (13’-19’): 28/6/7
Kobe (01’-10’): 29/6/5
Drexler (88’-95’): 23/7/7
West (62’-70’): 32/6/6
Wade (06’-11’): 27/6/5
Miller (90’-98’): 24/3/3
Jordan (87’-96’): 34/7/6
Gervin (78’-83’): 29/6/3
Iverson (99’-05’): 31/4/6

Last postseason where he averaged 35/7/6 on 44 percent against Golden State?

Basically what Kawhi averaged but Kawhi had better injury luck so Kawhi walks on water now. :lol

LoneyROY7

05-21-2020, 09:18 AM

How many 4th quarter points when it mattered?

Oh....gotcha.

He had 12 points in the 4th quarter in game 6 you f*cking dunce. :lol

But then you don't watch games.

Sakkreth

05-21-2020, 10:35 AM

He represents what is wrong with current nba era and its rules the most accurately all the players.

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 11:07 AM

He represents what is wrong with current nba era and its rules the most accurately all the players.

You mean the free throws? I don't get why people blame him. He is playing within the rules and succeeding. If it was that easy why doesn't everybody take 10+ FTA per game?

If the rules changed Harden would too. Great players will always find a way. I don't buy the notion that Harden would not be great in past eras.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 12:33 PM

I really wonder if Durant went basically anywhere else and Harden got a ring or 2 how we’d view him. Like how would harden compare with Kobe careerwise considering he puts up similar stats and performances as he does now.

I don’t like the guy or his style of play which is why I rely on stats when I talk about him, trying to be objective. The stats are on his side for the past 2 playoff runs.

ImKobe

05-21-2020, 03:56 PM

I really wonder if Durant went basically anywhere else and Harden got a ring or 2 how we’d view him. Like how would harden compare with Kobe careerwise considering he puts up similar stats and performances as he does now.

I don’t like the guy or his style of play which is why I rely on stats when I talk about him, trying to be objective. The stats are on his side for the past 2 playoff runs.

Stats are inflated in this era. Winning is what separates good players from great ones. He's come up short almost every time. Obviously we'd view him differently if he was able to win, but he's not in his mid-20s, he's in his 30s and it's not looking good for him.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 04:41 PM

Stats are inflated in this era. Winning is what separates good players from great ones. He's come up short almost every time. Obviously we'd view him differently if he was able to win, but he's not in his mid-20s, he's in his 30s and it's not looking good for him.but look at who he’s come up short against. Were not talking Duncan’s Spurs or Nash’s Suns here, who are great teams by their own rights. 18/19 warriors. And Kawhi will get credit for ‘beating the warriors that beat Harden that year’. Harden had to face a Durant who was healthy for 4.5 games, Kawhi didn’t.

And look I’ll be the first to admit his shortcomings. Him getting drastically outplayed by Westbrook in. 17 playoffs, losing g6 against Durantless Warriors... hell, even losing g5 against not so healthy Durant.

And he’s not just putting up great volume stats, he’s doing it with historical efficiency. In 2019 playoffs harden ISO’s on 47% of rockets possessions and he averaged 1.04 ppp on that. Durant last years playoffs? 20.6% iso frequency with only .96 ppp, Kawhi 18% with .95 ppp. Aren’t these 2 supposed to be iso killers? And before you ask what my obsession with iso stats is it’s because iso scoring is IMO the most important attribute in a star first option so I’m not gonna move the goalpost because I don’t like Harden. And I get iso stat like all other stats are flawed too. Playing offball is important to winning and the fact that it categorizes post ISO’s in a different category makes it misleading too, but less iso attempts and how skilled Kawhi and Durant are supposed to be at scoring should they not be able to match Harden’s efficiency?

Tldr Harden has been a playoff choker, yes. But so was Dirk before 2011. his last 2 playoff runs he’s played well enough to win it all in most seasons.

Soundwave

05-21-2020, 04:43 PM

NBAGOAT

05-21-2020, 05:18 PM

yes. his effectiveness is not far off from durants though his playstyle is way less well liked. i like paul and gordon but they just dont compare to durant's gs squad

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 05:57 PM

I really wonder if Durant went basically anywhere else and Harden got a ring or 2 how we’d view him. Like how would harden compare with Kobe careerwise considering he puts up similar stats and performances as he does now.

A ring can do a lot. Dirk was seen in many ways as Harden is. He wins 1 ring and his entire legacy changes

Great point. If Durant goes to any other team the Rockets beat the Warriors in 18' and Harden has a ring. They probably win again in 19'. Does this somehow make Harden a better player?

Stats are inflated in this era

Who else is scoring 36? Scoring is inflated but that is it. You don't have 12 guys averaging 10+ APG in this era.

but look at who he’s come up short against. Were not talking Duncan’s Spurs or Nash’s Suns here, who are great teams by their own rights. 18/19 warriors. And Kawhi will get credit for ‘beating the warriors that beat Harden that year’. Harden had to face a Durant who was healthy for 4.5 games, Kawhi didn’t.

Exactly. This is why I come down on the pro-Harden side. Houston has gone as far, if not a bit farther, as their talent dictates. It isn't like Harden is choking with the best team.

Plus Harden is hurt by being in today's era. I posted in another thread about playoff numbers for 90's legends. I was shocked at how much Malone and Stockton fell off in the playoffs (Robinson, Ewing didn't look too hot either). Stockton averaged 9.7 PPG in a finals and gets a free pass for it. If any HOF second star did that today they would be roasted forever.

PeroAntic

05-21-2020, 06:05 PM

Harden has the ugliest game in the league. If anything hes overrated. He only looks good on the statsheet. everything he does on the court is pure cringe.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 06:35 PM

Plus Harden is hurt by being in today's era. I posted in another thread about playoff numbers for 90's legends. I was shocked at how much Malone and Stockton fell off in the playoffs (Robinson, Ewing didn't look too hot either). Stockton averaged 9.7 PPG in a finals and gets a free pass for it. If any HOF second star did that today they would be roasted forever.stockton and Malone did get a lot of criticism for that though. Magic’s ‘tragic’ game he put up 16/5/15/4/2 but only shot 36% and had 7 to’s and the media gave him the choker moniker because the turnovers were uncharacteristic, like Harden shootin 7/12 from the line in g6. Jordan when he scored 3k in a season was basically viewed like someone whose style can’t win a ring. No star gets a pass, and the bigger the star the more the media will shit on u, it’s always been like that it’s not exclusive to this era. Now if you’re referring to offcourt stuff, yeah that’s obviously much more transparent these days.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 06:40 PM

Harden has the ugliest game in the league. If anything hes overrated. He only looks good on the statsheet. everything he does on the court is pure cringe.where do u rank Harden if I may ask?

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 07:07 PM

stockton and Malone did get a lot of criticism for that though.

All forgotten now. If current trends continue Harden likely never shakes the "choker" label. Stockton & Malone are discussed and those chokes never come up (look at ISH threads--Stockton in particular sucked and gets a pass). The difference is Harden's issues are brought before everybody often via social media and all the sports shows on various channels. Back then you watched the game on NBC and then maybe saw a stat sheet on Sportscenter but that was it.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 07:17 PM

All forgotten now. If current trends continue Harden likely never shakes the "choker" label. Stockton & Malone are discussed and those chokes never come up (look at ISH threads--Stockton in particular sucked and gets a pass). The difference is Harden's issues are brought before everybody often via social media and all the sports shows on various channels. Back then you watched the game on NBC and then maybe saw a stat sheet on Sportscenter but that was it.harden’s issues are brought up because he’s a current star. If he doesn’t win he’s just gonna be forgotten a la Alex English or Bernard King and were not going to care about him enough to bring up he was a choker or not.

PeroAntic

05-21-2020, 07:22 PM

where do u rank Harden if I may ask?
Durant
Kawhi
AD
Embiid
Curry
Butler
Lebron
Giannis
Doncic
Kyrie

so yeah outside of the top 10.

j3lademaster

05-21-2020, 07:36 PM

Durant
Kawhi
AD
Embiid
Curry
Butler
Lebron
Giannis
Doncic
Kyrie

so yeah outside of the top 10.Wow. So Rockets get better with Kyrie or Butler instead of Harden?

PeroAntic

05-21-2020, 08:22 PM

Wow. So Rockets get better with Kyrie or Butler instead of Harden?

If by get better you mean increase their title odds (and actually become watchable in the process) then yes. Will need a crash course in flopping in the summer if they wanna replace Harden freethrow rate, but other than that its an improvement. Butler is much more of a leader and defender and Kyrie is pretty much the most talented player in the game, you just need to pamper him a bit.

Roundball_Rock

05-21-2020, 09:41 PM

harden’s issues are brought up because he’s a current star. If he doesn’t win he’s just gonna be forgotten a la Alex English or Bernard King and were not going to care about him enough to bring up he was a choker or not.

Nah, I think Carmelo falls into the King or English category but not Harden. Harden won a MVP, may win another before he retires. Harden is similar to Iverson (elite scorer, won a MVP) except Harden looks like he will have more longevity.

If by get better you mean increase their title odds (and actually become watchable in the process) then yes

Kyrie's playoff line in 2018: 0/0/0
Kyrie's playoff line in 2020: 0/0/0

Why is no show Kyrie even in the conversation? When he did show up last, 2019, he choked hard.

PeroAntic

05-22-2020, 07:26 AM

Kyrie's playoff line in 2018: 0/0/0
Kyrie's playoff line in 2020: 0/0/0

Why is no show Kyrie even in the conversation? When he did show up last, 2019, he choked hard.

Kyrie's playoff line in 2017: saved Bran's legacy.

SATAN

05-22-2020, 07:54 AM

How?

ImKobe

05-22-2020, 08:17 AM

In fairness to him, its been his Rockets, not LeBrons Cavs that gave the Durant Warriors (a super team) the best run for their money.

They did do that, but Harden wasn't great in the 2nd half of that series. They didn't win Game 5 because of Harden. He was awful in it, as well as in the next two that they ended up losing without CP3. Game 1 was his best of the series, where he had 41 and shot 5/9 from three. Games 2-7, he averaged 26.7 ppg on 38.6%FG with 20.3% from three and 5 turnovers per game. He had 19 points on 5/21 shooting + 6 TOs when they won that Game 5 (6 points on 1/6 shooting in the 4th, 0 points in the last 5 minutes) to push it to 3 - 2 with great help from Eric Gordon in crunch time. He was awful from 3 in 6 out of 7 games, the amount of times he'd kill the momentum by chucking up transition 3s that fell short..

Smoke117

05-22-2020, 08:21 AM

In fairness to him, its been his Rockets, not LeBrons Cavs that gave the Durant Warriors (a super team) the best run for their money.

Except it was Chris Paul and not James Harden making all the big plays and shots that put them up 3-2 on the Warriors.

Roundball_Rock

05-22-2020, 09:16 AM

They did do that, but Harden wasn't great in the 2nd half of that series. They didn't win Game 5 because of Harden

You could nit-pick any all-time great that way.

Harden missed 10 games in 18'. The Rockets won 60% of those games--but won 82% of games with Harden (67 win pace versus a 49 win pace).

Kyrie's playoff line in 2017: saved Bran's legacy.

This is some strong hate. :lol It contains an implicit admission: Kyrie hasn't done much in the playoffs outside of one year that we always hear about.

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 09:21 AM

Harden's a candidate for the worst choker in Playoffs history. There's nothing underappreciated about him until he gets over the hump. Dude's nearly 31 and still hasn't got the Rockets to the Finals.

Who was he supposed to beat?

The 2015 Warriors?

The 2016 Warriors?

The 2017 Spurs?

The 2018 Warriors?

The 2019 Warriors?

Funny

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 09:24 AM

He had 12 points in the 4th quarter in game 6 you f*cking dunce. :lol

But then you don't watch games.

He's a 90s head caught watching space jam tapes and last dance, dude needs easy narratives

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 09:25 AM

If by get better you mean increase their title odds (and actually become watchable in the process) then yes. Will need a crash course in flopping in the summer if they wanna replace Harden freethrow rate, but other than that its an improvement. Butler is much more of a leader and defender and Kyrie is pretty much the most talented player in the game, you just need to pamper him a bit.

My goodness, j3lademaster just did an excellent job of sucking you in and exposing your stupidity.

Now everyone knows exactly not to take you seriously.

Roundball_Rock

05-22-2020, 09:33 AM

Who was he supposed to beat?

The 2015 Warriors?

The 2016 Warriors?

The 2017 Spurs?

The 2018 Warriors?

The 2019 Warriors?

Exactly.

For the anti-Harden people, other than LeBron can you name another superstar who would have won with those same teams?

He's a 90s head caught watching space jam tapes and last dance, dude needs easy narratives

Nah he is another one of those MJ stans who were too young to watch MJ. He has posted about the 98' finals a few times and clearly has no idea what was going on in the series.

StrongLurk

05-22-2020, 09:42 AM

tpols

05-22-2020, 09:46 AM

Who was he supposed to beat?

The 2015 Warriors?

The 2016 Warriors?

The 2017 Spurs?

The 2018 Warriors?

The 2019 Warriors?

Funny

now you're learning young padawon.

Thats the wild wild west mate.

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 09:48 AM

now you're learning young padawon.

Thats the wild wild west mate.

no, thats just the warriors

tpols

05-22-2020, 09:49 AM

people more hate on him because of how he plays with the black belt BJJ flop game.

and his style ~ dribble dribble dribble forever, chuck a step back 25 footer. it's actually amazing its gotten him as far as it has.

HakeemAlHilm

05-22-2020, 09:53 AM

Durant
Kawhi
AD
Embiid
Curry
Butler
Lebron
Giannis
Doncic
Kyrie

so yeah outside of the top 10.

You might be legitimately retarded

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

05-22-2020, 09:56 AM

He's rated or "appreciated" just fine.

now you're learning young padawon.

Thats the wild wild west mate.

Watch that idiot backtrack now lol

The Rockets and Harden could have and SHOULD have won in 2019. Against a compromised Warriors team who were later without Durant.

They also had an opportunity in 2018. The game they missed like 30 threes :lol

Roundball_Rock

05-22-2020, 10:03 AM

Shoutout to RoundBallRock. Very hard to get good posters on ISH who are actually objective most of the time and isn't stanning like a loser.

I'm one of the few posters who are objective and I've been complimenting Harden for a long time only to be barraged by low IQ, casual responses.

It's not just this thread, many of the threads RBR have made recently have been topics I've also covered. Glad to see it!

:cheers:

no, thats just the warriors

Yeah that is the common denominator in the years they had a shot: WCF loss to GS in 15', WCSF loss to the Spurs in 17', WCF loss to GS in 18', WCSF loss to GS in 19'.

The irony is when the Warriors (at least temporarily) ceased to be contenders the two Los Angeles teams emerged.

I still think the Rockets are underrated. Superstar talent matters the short sample sizes that playoff series are so you can never count out a team with two MVP's in or near their primes. They did hurt themselves, though, by underachieving in the regular season and having a low seed. They could have turned it around and moved up to 3rd or 4th but a team like that shouldn't have been 6th in the first place. They still would be favored over Denver, though, and then likely would get the Clippers in the second round. The Clippers are unproven in the playoffs and Houston has had some success against them this season.

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 10:21 AM

He's rated or "appreciated" just fine.

Watch that idiot backtrack now lol

The Rockets and Harden could have and SHOULD have won in 2019. Against a compromised Warriors team who were later without Durant.

They also had an opportunity in 2018. The game they missed like 30 threes :lol

backtrack from what?

You trying to get embarrassed again?

Lmao

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

05-22-2020, 10:26 AM

backtrack from what?

You trying to get embarrassed again?

Lmao

I'm flying over your head. Don't hurt your brain trying to think.

Roundball_Rock

05-22-2020, 10:29 AM

backtrack from what?

You trying to get embarrassed again?

Lmao

A "compromised team" that had Durant for 5 games and Curry, Thompson, Green, Iggy for all 6 games. :lol The same team that swept the WCF without KD. The only reason they lost the finals was they had too many injuries to overcome by then but if it was just KD out they would have won.

People don't realize how good the Warriors were without KD. It is odd because they won 67 and 73 before he got there. Durant missed significant time in 17' and 18'. Here is how GS did:

2017: 16-4 without Durant (66 win pace)
2018: 9-5 without Durant (53 win pace)

In 2019 he only missed 4 games but the Warriors went 3-1. So in total they were 28-10 without him, which is a 60 win pace.

At any rate, Durant missed only one game of the WCSF. That isn't the same opportunity the Raptors were given.

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 10:30 AM

I'm flying over your head. Don't hurt your brain trying to think.

Yeah, I am backtracking by disagreeing with the wild west notion, since there was one dominant team which no one was expected to beat..

I got you going full retard again.

You are literally my playtoy at this point. Lil lapdog. Lol.

ArbitraryWater

05-22-2020, 10:30 AM

A "compromised team" that had Durant for 5 games and Curry, Thompson, Green, Iggy for all 6 games. :lol The same team that swept the WCF without KD. The only reason they lost the finals was they had too many injuries to overcome by then but if it was just KD out they would have won.

People don't realize how good the Warriors were without KD. It is odd because they won 67 and 73 before he got there. Durant missed significant time in 17' and 18'. Here is how GS did:

2017: 16-4 without Durant (66 win pace)
2018: 9-5 without Durant (53 win pace)

In 2019 he only missed 4 games but the Warriors went 3-1. So in total they were 28-10 without him, which is a 60 win pace.

At any rate, Durant missed only one game of the WCSF. That isn't the same opportunity the Raptors were given.

Kuniva at this point has no idea what he is getting into anymore.

He is merely speaking from an emotional POV. He's hurting and needs revenge. Lol.