BREAKING: Pippen reportedly beyond livid with Jordan after documentary

[Uncle Drew]

Grant, now Pip? Damn, Dad Killer even crumbling within his own inner circle. :(


Scottie Pippen reportedly is the latest of Michael Jordan's former teammates who is unhappy with how he was portrayed in The Last Dance.

Per David Kaplan of ESPN 1000 in Chicago (h/t Daniel Greenberg of Wrigley Sports), Pippen is "so angry" and "beyond livid" at Jordan over how he came across on the documentary.

Kaplan explained that Pippen's unhappiness stems from Jordan calling him "selfish" and that he "didn't realize what he was getting himself into" with the documentary (starting at 23:00 mark).

"[Pippen] felt like up until the last few minutes of Game 6 against the Jazz [in the 1998 NBA Finals], it was just 'bash Scottie, bash Scottie, bash Scottie,'" Kaplan said.

This comes after Horace Grant went on the record to express his displeasure with the documentary.

On Tuesday's Kap and Co. on ESPN 1000 (h/t ESPN's Nick Friedell), Grant took exception to Jordan's claim that he was a primary source for Sam Smith's book The Jordan Rules:

"Lie, lie, lie. ... If MJ had a grudge with me, let's settle this like men. Let's talk about it. Or we can settle it another way. But yet and still, he goes out and puts this lie out that I was the source behind [the book]. Sam and I have always been great friends. We're still great friends. But the sanctity of that locker room, I would never put anything personal out there. The mere fact that Sam Smith was an investigative reporter. That he had to have two sources, two, to write a book, I guess. Why would MJ just point me out?"

Grant added that if you say something about Jordan, "he's going to try to destroy your character."

The documentary did highlight some memorable negative moments in Pippen's career. There was a segment in which Jordan seemed to question his teammate for the infamous migraine game against the Detroit Pistons in Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals.

"I can't argue the point he had a migraine," Jordan said. "It's one of those things that's so unfortunate."

Another moment in episode two saw Jordan call Pippen "selfish" for putting off ankle surgery until the start of the 1997-98 season. That was around the same time that Pippen demanded a trade from the Bulls because he was unhappy with his contract.

Jordan was also complimentary of Pippen's talent early in the documentary: "Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen. Everybody says I won all these championships. But I didn't win without Scottie Pippen. That's why I consider him my greatest teammate of all-time."

Pippen ultimately finished out that final season with the Bulls before moving to the Houston Rockets as part of a sign-and-trade deal in January 1999.

[Uncle Drew]

Thanks for the 5 stars, I appreciate it! :cheers:

That said: No Pip, no chip.

[dazzer87]

Pip the quit............

[PoutinPippin]

Scottie Quittin

[Uncle Drew]

Scottie Quittin

Scottie Winnin.

[PoutinPippin]

Pip the quit............

Pouting Pippen

[Uncle Drew]

Lol, man made an account in May 2020 about Pippen because the latter has finally gotten his real recognition as a top 25 player of all time lately. Oof. Jordan's on thin ice I see.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mad at the truth?

Nobody forced Pippen to say he'd QUIT all over again if he could :oldlol:

[bullettooth]

Wheels *********ing furiously to any negative news about MJ right now.

Live it up kiddo, as long as this helps you cope with LeBron's legacy being a finals loser.

[Roundball_Rock]

No surprise. We are going to see basically every Bull in the "doc" not named Jordan come out and complain about their portrayal (and some non-Bulls like Zeke and Drexler).

[Uncle Drew]

No surprise. We are going to see basically every Bull in the "doc" not named Jordan come out and complain about their portrayal (and some non-Bulls like Zeke and Drexler).

Won't be long now before James Jordan speaks his mind on how he was portrayed in the documentary.

[PoutinPippin]

Sulking Scottie

[Lebron23]

Only douchebags like bullettooth love the documentary. It made Jordan a self absorbed prick by criticizing and belittling his teammates.

[3ball]

The documentary should've said how the great Pippen did in 99' without MJ - they should've highlighted how his stats in 99' compared to his 98' stats or his 36-year old teammates hakeem/barkley.... Or how he fared against a 20-year old in the playoffs

[bullettooth]

I've only seen half of it LOL. But I can't wait for the LeBron documentary so we can all be reminded of his team hopping and 6 finals failures while chasing MJ's ghost....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

[1987_Lakers]

Damn, teammates turning on MJ. :oldlol:

[PoutinPippin]

Only douchebags like bullettooth love the documentary. It made Jordan a self absorbed prick by criticizing and belittling his teammates.
Self absorbed? You’re a Three 6 Mafia Stan.

Do you lack self awareness just like the man you praise? :oldlol:

[Uncle Drew]

I love how angry this makes some of you.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Sulking Scottie

SamuraiSwish

MoneyMitch

God damn you're corny and predictable. Also blatantly hungry for any sliver of recognition which is why you lied about coaching middle school children while simultaneously venting your racial prejudices on a bball forum. :lol

Did I mention that you're a gigantic fakkit? :cheers:

[Lebron23]

I love how angry this makes some of you.

The biggest Jordantard is Jordan himself. It won't suprise me if he is posting in some basketball forum instead of making the Hornets a relevant team in the NBA.

[SATAN]

Jordan losing friends by the day because of some stupid propaganda film. Wonder who else turns against him when the next ESPN turd is released

[PoutinPippin]

SamuraiSwish

MoneyMitch

God damn you're corny and predictable. Also blatantly hungry for any sliver of recognition which is why you lied about coaching middle school children while simultaneously venting your racial prejudices on a bball forum. :lol

Did I mention that you're a gigantic fakkit? :cheers:
You’re melting down baby boi. Rent free.

The doc presented on court / franchise things in a totally factual way. Why all the ass hurt-ness from Ho Grant and Poutin Pippen?

He said he was a great sidekick, best teammate he ever had, and second biggest reason he won rings. But everything else was faxxxxxs.

1990 Game 7 ECF Migraine
Scottie Quittin 1994 ECSF
Poutin Pippen 1/2 1998 Season
Broke Back Scottie in 2nd three peat playoffs

These were major events that shaped the franchise.

[AlternativeAcc.]

You’re melting down baby boi. Rent free.

At least you didn't deny anything and instead resorted to cliche ISHisms

that's actually a win for you coach, well done :cheers:

[Duncan21formvp]

You’re melting down baby boi. Rent free.

The doc presented on court / franchise things in a totally factual way. Why all the ass hurt-ness from Ho Grant and Poutin Pippen?

He said he was a great sidekick, best teammate he ever had, and second biggest reason he won rings. But everything else was faxxxxxs.

1990 Game 7 ECF Migraine
Scottie Quittin 1994 ECSF
Poutin Pippen 1/2 1998 Season
Broke Back Scottie in 2nd three peat playoffs

These were major events that shaped the franchise.

Agreed! Even Jordan put negative stuff about himself in the documentary such as gambling issues, talking about guys who were doing drugs and cocaine, as well as his stance on politics.

[LostCause]

Grant and MJ never got along much anyway so of course there’s drama there (Dont think Jordan should’ve outed Grant as a source for Smiths book though. As Grant himself admitted, a lot of things he on the book were fabricated but the true things had a lot more than Grant as a source. Phil was also a big source). Still, he shouldn’t have outed him. That was definitely unnecessary

Pippen I can see where he’s coming from. I actually thought his episode was well done and showed people why he was in his contract situation, which was a very noble reason. Jordan was again wrong for calling him selfish though. That said I highly doubt he’s “livid” given the many times Jordan defers his success to him

People like Zeke etc don’t have anything to complain about. Obviously as his opponents they’ll get his mentality against them. Zeke has been going around on sports shows dissing Pippen hard for years, so any animosity between the Bulls-Pistons is between them

[97 bulls]

https://youtu.be/xmSyudTzYPo
Grant going in

[Duncan21formvp]

Nothing was presented that didnt happen. He also mentioned he would do it again, so what was the issue?

[SATAN]

Now Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright are pissed about The Last Deception :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Now Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright are pissed about The Last Deception :oldlol:
Jordan said a lot of people were gonna be hurt by this. Let's run through it.

Scottie Pippen
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Horace Grant
Isaiah Thomas
Craig Hodges
Toni Kukoc
Dennis Rodman

[iamgine]

iirc Jordan called Pippen's action selfish for delaying his surgery but they're all talking about it as if Jordan called Pippen a selfish player and person all along.

[97 bulls]

Jordan said a lot of people were gonna be hurt by this. Let's run through it.

Scottie Pippen
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Horace Grant
Isaiah Thomas
Craig Hodges
Toni Kukoc
Dennis Rodman

It seems I need to add Stacy King as well

[FireDavidKahn]

Damn, teammates turning on MJ. :oldlol:

Not exactly surprising when the documentary was meant to fellate Jordan and make it seem that the rest of his team was scrubs.

[LostCause]

iirc Jordan called Pippen's action selfish for delaying his surgery but they're all talking about it as if Jordan called Pippen a selfish player and person all along.

Yeah that’s the part I don’t get

People are responding emotionally and tying him saying that into what Pippen did in 94, how he played hurt in 98 Finals etc. There’s no actual connection. Sure it was wrong of MJ to speak publicly about Pippens contract dispute, but speaking on one issue has no bearing on anything outside of that.

Grant I can see why he’s mad. Got called a snitch on national TV. Though it was true. Smith confirmed Phil Jackson also contributed some anecdotes (Though most the book was fake)

Why on earth would Clyde Drexler or Isiah Thomas be mad though? That doesn’t make any sense.

[guy]

Jordan said a lot of people were gonna be hurt by this. Let's run through it.

Scottie Pippen
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Horace Grant
Isaiah Thomas
Craig Hodges
Toni Kukoc
Dennis Rodman

Why should Barkley, Drexler, Kukoc, or Rodman be mad?

[Roundball_Rock]

Everybody who was thrown under the bus to make Jordan look better is going to come out and call it out. :lol


'The Last Dance' is over, and now Michael Jordan's ex-teammates are lining up to bash the documentary

Not a good look for MJ that he did this, especially with so many people who worked with him (not to mention Isiah, Drexler, Majerle as opposing players).

https://www.insider.com/michael-jordan-ex-bulls-teammates-unhappy-with-the-last-dance-2020-5

[PoutinPippin]

Everybody who was thrown under the bus to make Jordan look better is going to come out and call it out. :lol



Not a good look for MJ that he did this, especially with so many people who worked with him (not to mention Isiah, Drexler, Majerle as opposing players).

https://www.insider.com/michael-jordan-ex-bulls-teammates-unhappy-with-the-last-dance-2020-5
Make him look better? He's basically the unanimous consensus GOAT.

:oldlol:

The salt is real. Everything in the doc was facts.

[Soundwave]

Scottie is mad about what exactly?

When is the last time in the NBA a star player refused to go into a playoff game, with the game on the line because he was throwing a hissy fit against a hall of fame coach?

Several players including Jordan and Rodman were underpaid on the Bulls, how many of them pouted that much about their contract and sabotaged the team on purpose by refusing to get surgery done on time?

Who signed his contract? Who insisted on it?

This isn't fabricated stuff, he did all this. It just isn't flattering now because no star player would be allowed to behave that way today without getting killed by the press, but he's angry about what? That they brought it up? What were they supposed to do? Ignore it?

Scottie has a chance in the doc to get the final word in and he says plainly with regards to the Kukoc shot situation he would do it again.

[Vino24]

The doc was presented as if 3ball was the director

[LostCause]

Why should Barkley, Drexler, Kukoc, or Rodman be mad?

No ones gonna answer that question

Especially in regards to Barkley and Drexler. They're just throwing names out at this point

[DoctorP]

Not even SEETHING

LIVID

[Whoah10115]

I'm surprised anyone is particularly offended, other than Horace Grant.

[DoctorP]

Pippen is currently kicking the garbage can and slamming his refrigerator shut.

LIVID

[Indian guy]

This seems like a gross overreaction. The Migraine (1990), Sitting Bull (1994) and the intentionally delayed surgery in 1998 are all major parts of Bulls' history and Pippen's career. What were they supposed to do - not talk about it? And I think the documentary was fairly sympathetic to Pippen in all 3 of those stories, despite the latter 2 clearly being cases where he was totally out of line. And overall he wasn't shown as anything less than an invaluable part of the Bulls dynasty.

[goozeman]

Not really surprising that the doc trashed Pippen and a lot of the other Bulls. Jordan is really the supreme type of narcissist -- one in which their confidence and self-belief is completely justified and proven. In his heart of hearts, I doubt Jordan believes Pippen or the rest of the Bulls had much to do with his personal accomplishments and championships. Think about the mentality it took Jordan to walk away from a sport to which he had dedicated his life and in which he was at his absolute peak as a player. If Jordan really thought he needed Pippen and the Bulls, there is no way he does that. There was no fear of loss of opportunity down the road on Jordan's part. He just noped out of the NBA like a hot chic dropping their high school boyfriend who has gotten fat after graduation. They are not risk averse at all and think they can do better. If there had been, Jordan would have wanted to ride out the team's championship window. Jordan probably thinks he is not just the primary reason but the only reason behind their championships though, so there is no fear of loss on his part. Just another example of why Jordan is the GOAT.

[Round Mound]

Not exactly surprising when the documentary was meant to fellate Jordan and make it seem that the rest of his team was scrubs.

He had 2 All Defense Teamers in Pippen and Grant and one who would rank 4th in PER when he wasn't playing , yes Pippen! who also happens to be the best defender ever at his position. He had all this for his 1st three rings. He then also had the best rebounder in the league in Rodman (also one of the best post defenders), the best 6thman in the league in versatile Kukoc, a good defensive guard in Harperm a 7´2 good rim protector and best Australian player ever in Longley. He also had 3 elite shooters in Paxon, Hodges and Kerr for all his rings.

Bulls where stacked!

[86Celtics]

Grant, now Pip? Damn, Dad Killer even crumbling within his own inner circle. :(

Dad killer? Would you ever dare say this in public moron? You are nothing more than a coward behind a keyboard.

[SATAN]

It seems I need to add Stacy King as well

Pretty sure Ron Harper is disappointed in The Last Deception starring Michael Jerkdon also. The list keeps growing.

[Uncle Drew]

Dad killer? Would you ever dare say this in public moron? You are nothing more than a coward behind a keyboard.

This is a public forum, is it not?

[Soundwave]

This is a public forum, is it not?

That's a really tasteless post though it says more about the type of person you are to just throw around comments like that. Karma has a habit of coming around though, when you put sh*t out into the world, don't be surprised when it comes knocking back at your door.

[Phoenix]

That's a really tasteless post though it says more about the type of person you are to just throw around comments like that. Karma has a habit of coming around though, when you put sh*t out into the world, don't be surprised when it comes knocking back at your door.

'Dad killer' has been thrown around by a few of these alts. Says as much about this board that it's allowed as it does the little shithole(s) hiding behind their PC screens.

[Uncle Drew]

That's a really tasteless post though it says more about the type of person you are to just throw around comments like that. Karma has a habit of coming around though, when you put sh*t out into the world, don't be surprised when it comes knocking back at your door.

:(

[WhiteKyrie]

This seems like a gross overreaction. The Migraine (1990), Sitting Bull (1994) and the intentionally delayed surgery in 1998 are all major parts of Bulls' history and Pippen's career. What were they supposed to do - not talk about it? And I think the documentary was fairly sympathetic to Pippen in all 3 of those stories, despite the latter 2 clearly being cases where he was totally out of line. And overall he wasn't shown as anything less than an invaluable part of the Bulls dynasty.
Agreed.


Not really surprising that the doc trashed Pippen and a lot of the other Bulls. Jordan is really the supreme type of narcissist -- one in which their confidence and self-belief is completely justified and proven. In his heart of hearts, I doubt Jordan believes Pippen or the rest of the Bulls had much to do with his personal accomplishments and championships. Think about the mentality it took Jordan to walk away from a sport to which he had dedicated his life and in which he was at his absolute peak as a player. If Jordan really thought he needed Pippen and the Bulls, there is no way he does that. There was no fear of loss of opportunity down the road on Jordan's part. He just noped out of the NBA like a hot chic dropping their high school boyfriend who has gotten fat after graduation. They are not risk averse at all and think they can do better. If there had been, Jordan would have wanted to ride out the team's championship window. Jordan probably thinks he is not just the primary reason but the only reason behind their championships though, so there is no fear of loss on his part. Just another example of why Jordan is the GOAT.
Huh? The whole thing starts off with Michael saying Scottie was invaluable, and you can't mention Mike without mentioning Scottie. He literally at various points gives props to Scottie, Dennis, Kerr, and even Kukoc. I don't think you were paying much attention.

[Derka]

Scottie being livid with a relatively benign examination of the ways he shot himself in the foot throughout his career seems to be right in line with his generally bitchmade character.

[WhiteKyrie]

That's a really tasteless post though it says more about the type of person you are to just throw around comments like that. Karma has a habit of coming around though, when you put sh*t out into the world, don't be surprised when it comes knocking back at your door.
Yup, pretty trashy.

[97 bulls]

When are you guys gonna get this through your thick heads? The issue isnt them addressing Pips lowpoints, the issue was the lack of his high points. I mean think about it. He obviously knew those situations were gonna be discussed. He addressed them in his documentary.

One of my friends noticed that whenever the narrative was the Bulls reaching some kind of turmoil or struggle in a game, they show Pippen turning the ball over or missing a shot or kicking the ball out of bounds. How many of Pippens big shots did the documentary show? I cant think of one until the end of the documentary when they covered his back injury. That's the issue.

[goozeman]

Huh? The whole thing starts off with Michael saying Scottie was invaluable, and you can't mention Mike without mentioning Scottie. He literally at various points gives props to Scottie, Dennis, Kerr, and even Kukoc. I don't think you were paying much attention.


It's the entire tone and structure of the documentary. Yea, in the opening segments of the documentary, Jordan gushes briefly about how important Scottie was to the Bulls' success, naturally. And Scottie and Rodman both get about hour long segment or what not, but the general overall tone and direction of the piece is non-stop Jordan adulation, except for when it briefly touches on Jordan's gambling. The rest of the Bulls are almost an afterthought. Harper might as well not even played for the Bulls as far as the documentary is concerned, even though he was also a terrific perimeter defender. Kukoc contributions are largely ignored a sixth man except to point out that, while Jordan was away chasing his dream of being baseball player, it was Kukoc hitting game winning shot after shot, not Pippen.

Then Jordan openly calls Grant a snitch on camera. Wow! Sandwiched right smack in the middle of the non-stop Jordan love fest of Jordan eventually making the majors (bullshit, lol) is a giant segment in red blinking lights of the shameful moment of Pippen refusing to come off the bench in the playoffs in the final seconds of game three while down 0-2 to Knicks, the Bulls' most hated rival. I don't even remember it being that big of a deal when it happened, but the documentary goes through the whole thing in excruciating detail and magnifies the event in such a unnecessary way as to completely overshadow the great success the Bulls had without Jordan that season. And that was the whole point of the segment, to sink any notion that the Bulls could have been successful without Jordan because Pippen is a selfish quitter. Their words -- not mine! That's the worst part. His own teammates are the ones damning him. The phrase "quitting on the team" by his teammates is dragged across the screen over and over as much as possible to thoroughly impugn Pippen's character as a competitor. The whole thing is rather artlessly done, and the way it was setup with Jordan's foreshadowing calling Pippen "selfish" and the Kukoc montage of draining game winning shot after game winning shot left no doubt in my mind that it was intentionally structured this way to contrast Pippen's failures with Jordan's success in his comeback and the 72-10 team. If all that wasn't enough, they stuck that awkward interview of an obviously very uncomfortable Scottie Pippen trying to defend his brain fart and only coming across looking worse in the process by doubling down and defending his decision at the time to quit on his team.

[tpols]

How many of Pippens big shots did the documentary show?


does he even have any?

:lol

They gave the ball to rookie kukoc over peak pippen with playoff game on the line.

[PoutinPippin]

does he even have any?

:lol

They gave the ball to rookie kukoc over peak pippen with playoff game on the line.
He doesn’t have any. Mostly unclutch bricks and missed free throws. If you grew up in Chicago actually watching these games you’d know this. Scottie was about as unclutch as it comes.

[RogueBorg]

I'm surprised anyone is particularly offended, other than Horace Grant.

Horace shouldn't even be mentioned in this doc. When he was with the Bulls he was mad that the Bulls were portrayed as the Big 2, he thought they were a big 3 and wanted the ball more, that's why he left in the first place. He took on the same role in Orlando.

As for Pippen, Episode 2 was the Scottie Pippen episode. Jordan gave him the highest of praises when he said "Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen." I don't know what he's bitching about, MJ didn't have to say that. If anything, Pippen's to blame for the worst part of the documentary when he said if he had to do 1.8 seconds all over again he'd do the same thing. That shows how much of a little mental b---- Pippen is. Even if you feel that why do you say that? Dumb.

Half you guys didn't watch the whole thing yet you're acting like you know what you're talking about.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/last-dance-ep-2-recap-scottie-pippen-gets-his-due-deep-look-michael-jordans-past

Episode 3 was the Rodman episode which was awesome. Dennis isn't upset about how the doc portrayed himself.

Maybe some of you should watch the whole thing.

[guy]

Take this for what it’s worth but SAS on first take mentioned that he spoke to Jordan who said Pippen watched the doc beforehand and Pippen told him he was fine with it. Now I’m sure something is lost in translation there since al the episodes weren’t totally complete before the first episode aired but whatever, it seems like the point is he saw a lot of this beforehand. So if he’s upset it seems like it’s after the reaction from everyone else.

[RogueBorg]

If you grew up in Chicago actually watching these games you’d know this. Scottie was about as unclutch as it comes.

That's a fact.

[97 bulls]

does he even have any?

:lol

They gave the ball to rookie kukoc over peak pippen with playoff game on the line.

If any were, should at least a few have been put in there?

[RogueBorg]

If any were, should at least a few have been put in there?


Scottie Pippen: 'I don't have clutch genes'
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/scottie-pippen-michael-jordan-bulls-clutch-gene-espn-the-jump-video/z5ulncz41rxy17mva2cq4kxxc

[97 bulls]

That's a fact.

Dude, how can you be a Bulls fan and cosign that nonsense? Are you old enough to remember the 4th quarter of the1992 NBA Finals game 6 when the Bulls were down 15 pts and Jackson sat all the starters but Pippen and he spearheaded that comeback?

Or 1993 ECF game 6 when Pippen hit the dagger 3 to end the Knicks chances? Not to mention that Pip outplayed Jordan that series a d everyone knew it.

Or in 97 Finals game 6 when once again, the Bulls were on the brink of losing and were down big, Jackson sat the starters down outside of Pippen and he brought them back?

[Roundball_Rock]

Dude, how can you be a Bulls fan and cosign that nonsense? Are you old enough to remember the 4th quarter of the1992 NBA Finals game 6 when the Bulls were down 15 pts and Jackson sat all the starters but Pippen and he spearheaded that comeback?

Or 1993 ECF game 6 when Pippen hit the dagger 3 to end the Knicks chances? Not to mention that Pip outplayed Jordan that series a d everyone knew it.

Or in 97 Finals game 6 when once again, the Bulls were on the brink of losing and were down big, Jackson sat the starters down outside of Pippen and he brought them back?

Or even in that game--the previous play was called for Pippen but Kukoc botched the play (it was supposed to be an isolation). They aren't Bulls fans. Real Bulls fans would know these details. Like 3ball saying Grant won 6 rings with MJ.

These insecure MJ stans have one set of rules for Pippen and another for everyone else. Look at them gas every 90's star--and then look at what they say about Pippen.

[RogueBorg]

Dude, how can you be a Bulls fan and cosign that nonsense? Are you old enough to remember the 4th quarter of the1992 NBA Finals game 6 when the Bulls were down 15 pts and Jackson sat all the starters but Pippen and he spearheaded that comeback?

Or 1993 ECF game 6 when Pippen hit the dagger 3 to end the Knicks chances? Not to mention that Pip outplayed Jordan that series a d everyone knew it.

Or in 97 Finals game 6 when once again, the Bulls were on the brink of losing and were down big, Jackson sat the starters down outside of Pippen and he brought them back?

Yes, I am old enough to remember all the empty seats in the old Chicago Stadium and those coke heads like Quintin Dailey.

I'm not saying Pippen wasn't great, but he wasn't clutch and he definitely isn't this god-like figure most people have elevated him to today.

[RogueBorg]

Or even in that game--the previous play was called for Pippen but Kukoc botched the play (it was supposed to be an isolation). They aren't Bulls fans. Real Bulls fans would know these details. Like 3ball saying Grant won 6 rings with MJ.



Plays get botched all the time. What does that have to do with deciding to quit on your team?

[RogueBorg]

These insecure MJ stans have one set of rules for Pippen and another for everyone else. Look at them gas every 90's star--and then look at what they say about Pippen.

Tell me an instance where another great quits on his team and I'll rip him a new one for you.....I'll wait.

[97 bulls]

Yes, I am old enough to remember all the empty seats in the old Chicago Stadium and those coke heads like Quintin Dailey.

I'm not saying Pippen wasn't great, but he wasn't clutch and he definitely isn't this god-like figure most people have elevated him to today.

Clutch in relation to what? How are you defining clutch? Can a player never make a mistake?

[hold this L]

Only douchebags like bullettooth love the documentary. It made Jordan a self absorbed prick by criticizing and belittling his teammates.

Everyone already knew this

[RogueBorg]

Clutch in relation to what? How are you defining clutch? Can a player never make a mistake?

Of course players make mistakes, no one's saying that. Pippen has a long history of head-scratching biznatch moves. What history, YouTube, and Basketball Reference doesn't tell the casual fan is, leading up to the '91 ECF win over Detroit was, in all the previous years against Detroit they used to beat up Scottie and he wouldn't fight back. They used to beat up Grant too but that's another story. And look, that Chicago/Detroit rivalry, we're all like "Fight them!" We all saw Parish karate-chop Laimbeer, that's what we wanted Grant and Pippen to do but they wouldn't. MJ said it best in the doc when he said about Pippen, "Fight, I'll stand next to you, just fight." That's exactly how we all felt and remembered and wouldn't for three long years.

Then the whole 1.8 fiasco. That's the f------New York Knicks. Of all the teams the one you CANNOT quit against is New York. We just came off that brutal 7 game series in 1992, the war in 1993 and we're playing them again in '94 without MJ and we got a chance to beat them. Remember, when Scottie decided to sit, New York was up 2-0, if we lose we're down 3-0 and it's over. When Pipp went absent on the final play all the memories of the Detroit series comes back, Scottie's quitting again, we're all screaming at our TV's at Scottie "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" We're going down 3-0 to the Knicks, of course Kukoc hits the shot but we as fans were pissed. Scottie has even come out recently saying if he had to do it all over again, he would! WTF

The he sat out the start of the 1998 season when we all knew he could have had the surgery in the summer. Quit on us again.

Game 6 of the '98 Finals, give him credit for playing but he was trying to pull himself from the game, he even said so. We all heard him saying in the doc "I can't go" but Jordan dragged him along. Jordan even said "Having you out here, any version of you is better than not having you."

Scottie Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but if you're a quitter, it's not easily forgotten.

[Roundball_Rock]

Clutch in relation to what? How are you defining clutch? Can a player never make a mistake?

They have no criteria. Notice they never apply the scrutiny they apply to Pippen to any other 90's star? Listening to them, every 90's star was a titan--except Pippen.

Never mind the inconvenient fact that Pippen accomplished more than most of them. He sucked, they were awesome and flawless.

It is laughable to say he was a choker. Chokers don't win 6 rings.

Kevin Johnson actually did choke in the 93' finals. Not a word from them. Miller had no shows in key games (like 8 points). Nothing. Kemp choked in a 1st round loss to an 8 seed. Nothing. Grant Hill, 0 playoff series won in his prime. Nothing. Ewing consistently underachieved against the Bulls and choked in the 94' finals. Robinson choked every year in the playoffs. Nothing, nothing. They praise these guys. I could go down the list: stuff worse than Pippen but they toast all these guys because Pippen is the only 90's star they are insecure about.

[jayfan]

Nothing was presented that didnt happen. He also mentioned he would do it again, so what was the issue?


And this isn't the first time Pippen said he'd do it (quit) again. There was a Chicago Sun Times piece about 10 years ago in which Pippen said he wouldn't have changed anything regarding his decision to not go back into the game. Just a douche move.



.

[97 bulls]

Of course players make mistakes, no one's saying that. Pippen has a long history of head-scratching biznatch moves. What history, YouTube, and Basketball Reference doesn't tell the casual fan is, leading up to the '91 ECF win over Detroit was, in all the previous years against Detroit they used to beat up Scottie and he wouldn't fight back. They used to beat up Grant too but that's another story. And look, that Chicago/Detroit rivalry, we're all like "Fight them!" We all saw Parish karate-chop Laimbeer, that's what we wanted Grant and Pippen to do but they wouldn't. MJ said it best in the doc when he said about Pippen, "Fight, I'll stand next to you, just fight." That's exactly how we all felt and remembered and wouldn't for three long years.

Then the whole 1.8 fiasco. That's the f------New York Knicks. Of all the teams the one you CANNOT quit against is New York. We just came off that brutal 7 game series in 1992, the war in 1993 and we're playing them again in '94 without MJ and we got a chance to beat them. Remember, when Scottie decided to sit, New York was up 2-0, if we lose we're down 3-0 and it's over. When Pipp went absent on the final play all the memories of the Detroit series comes back, Scottie's quitting again, we're all screaming at our TV's at Scottie "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" We're going down 3-0 to the Knicks, of course Kukoc hits the shot but we as fans were pissed. Scottie has even come out recently saying if he had to do it all over again, he would! WTF

The he sat out the start of the 1998 season when we all knew he could have had the surgery in the summer. Quit on us again.

Game 6 of the '98 Finals, give him credit for playing but he was trying to pull himself from the game, he even said so. We all heard him saying in the doc "I can't go" but Jordan dragged him along. Jordan even said "Having you out here, any version of you is better than not having you."

Scottie Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but if you're a quitter, it's not easily forgotten.



He didnt quit when the Pistons beat him up.
He should've quit when his back went out.
Pippen deciding to have surgery when he did isnt quitting. I wish you guys would stop saying that.

Either way. The word you used in a previous post was "CLUTCH". Quitting and being a clutch are two totally different things. Unless you quit because you dont want to be in a moment because it's too much pressure. Remember why he sat out that 1.8 seconds. He WANTED to take the shot. That's not quitting. That's pouting. But it's not quitting so to speak.

[Roundball_Rock]

If they were consistent I could get it. Jordan, Kareem are the gold standards for clutch. So if they were dissing every other player for not matching Jordan's standard that would be annoying but understandable.

That isn't what they do. They cherry pick Pippen's career, usually just about shooting (they never talk about his defense or playmaking--he went 1 for 9 in Game 1 of the 98' ECF but still dominated the game). Yet they ignore other players with much bigger warts on their resume--and in fact praise all these other players from the same era.

[RogueBorg]

Remember why he sat out that 1.8 seconds. He WANTED to take the shot. That's not quitting. That's pouting. But it's not quitting so to speak.

When you as the team leader refuse to enter the game because you're pouting....you're quitting.

There's no other way around it.

[jayfan]

When you as the team leader refuse to enter the game because you're pouting....you're quitting.

There's no other way around it.

This.

[97 bulls]

They have no criteria. Notice they never apply the scrutiny they apply to Pippen to any other 90's star? Listening to them, every 90's star was a titan--except Pippen.

Never mind the inconvenient fact that Pippen accomplished more than most of them. He sucked, they were awesome and flawless.

It is laughable to say he was a choker. Chokers don't win 6 rings.

Kevin Johnson actually did choke in the 93' finals. Not a word from them. Miller had no shows in key games (like 8 points). Nothing. Kemp choked in a 1st round loss to an 8 seed. Nothing. Grant Hill, 0 playoff series won in his prime. Nothing. Ewing consistently underachieved against the Bulls and choked in the 94' finals. Robinson choked every year in the playoffs. Nothing, nothing. They praise these guys. I could go down the list: stuff worse than Pippen but they toast all these guys because Pippen is the only 90's star they are insecure about.

It goes farther than that. Many feel that the Bar fight Bird got into cost the Celtics a Championship, Magic made so many mistakes during the (I believe the 84)) series that he was being called "Tragic Johnson ", Thomas bad pass cost the Pistons a shot at the title in 87. Jordan missed key FTs vs Boston in 86, pouted in 89 when his coach asked him to look for his teammates more, Kobe airballed a bunch of shots in 98. Kareem led teams routinely lost to teams they had noooo business losing to. Wilt faked an injury when he thought his team was gonna lose and then said he felt better and wanted to go back in when his team got back in the game and it looked as if they were gonna win. We can go on and on. Shaq had surgery right before the season began because he didnt want to spend his summer rehabbing.

Why are these issues overlooked? And why aren't these guys considered chokers?
Why is Pippen held to a higher standard than these guys when hes supposedly a bunch of notches lower than they are?

[97 bulls]

When you as the team leader refuse to enter the game because you're pouting....you're quitting.

There's no other way around it.

Ok fine. That doesn't mean he was un-clutch though. Your agenda is getting the best of you.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why are these issues overlooked? And why aren't these guys considered chokers?
Why is Pippen held to a higher standard than these guys when hes supposedly a bunch of notches lower than they are?

Exactly--it is hypocrisy and only because MJ stans are insecure they are obsessed with tearing him down. None of those other players you mentioned have a large fan base going after them daily.

I made a thread that basically said Miller's role was overrated--MJ stans flooded the thread saying to critique Miller is criminal because it somehow is "anti-MJ." So we can comb through Pippen every day, every month, every year but one thread about Miller causes the same people to 1) melt down 2) defend that player?

Fatal9 and I did a lot of work several years ago showing how well Pippen did in the playoffs. They simply ignored it. :lol

[RogueBorg]

Why are these issues overlooked? And why aren't these guys considered chokers?
Why is Pippen held to a higher standard than these guys when hes supposedly a bunch of notches lower than they are?

They're not over-looked, we're not talking about those guys, we're talking about Pippen.

The Last Dance just came out, it's why Pippen is so hot. Start a thread about Magic's choke job in '84. No one wants to talk about Magic right now.

[Roundball_Rock]

“Certain people” say Pippen was a choker and a poor playoff performer. On its face this should ring alarm bells. He went to the NBA finals 6 times and played very well 5 times. He had one dud, when he had three injuries. And? There are several other legends who had bad finals, even when healthy. Does that mean they are chokers? A .833 batting average is excellent in the NBA finals.

Here is his playoff record:

6-0 in the NBA finals series, 24-11 in games
6-3 in conference finals, 32-15 in games
137-71 in the playoffs, second behind Kareem on the all-time playoff win list. To put 137 playoff wins in context, Kareem has 154, Magic 127, Jordan 125,

A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went, a lot of the things he did to help his team do not easily stick out on a statsheet. This leads to hilarities like two people in one thread going to basketballreference.com and seeing “10/4/4” and bashing him for it even though he dominated that NBA finals game defensively.

Here are his raw numbers in the playoffs, though.

Pippen consistently improved in the playoffs, especially his rebounding.

1988: +2 ppg, +1 rpg,
1989: -1 ppg, +2 rpg
1990: +2 ppg, =rpg
1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1994: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1995: -2 ppg, +2 rpg (compared to his numbers after MJ returned)
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg
1999: +3 ppg, +5 rpg
2000: +2 ppg, +1 rpg (Pippen led the 00' Blazers in rebounding, assists, steals and scored just 3 ppg less than Wallace)
2001: +3 ppg, +1 rpg
2002: +5 ppg, +4 rpg
2003: -5 ppg, -1 rpg

His assists were consistent so I did not include that. 10 times he increased his scoring, and 11 times his rebounding. Three times when his scoring declined he was injured and the other was in his second season. In 1992 it declined but only from 21 ppg to 20 ppg. His rebounding declined thrice, and one instance was in 2003 when he was injured and barely played in that series. Does this look like the record of a “usually terrible playoff performer” or “a choker”? Most players see their stats decline or remain even in the playoffs because of the tougher competition they face. Pippen is one of those who raised his stats. How could this be?

[RogueBorg]

Ok fine. That doesn't mean he was un-clutch though. Your agenda is getting the best of you.

I don't have an agenda. I'm a Bulls fan, I love Scottie. I've been saying this all along, I don't view him as this god-like figure everyone else does.

[97 bulls]

They're not over-looked, we're not talking about those guys, we're talking about Pippen.

The Last Dance just came out, it's why Pippen is so hot. Start a thread about Magic's choke job in '84. No one wants to talk about Magic right now.

Oh my God bro how are you missing this!!!!!? When have any of those players ever been considered a choker because of the moments I mentioned? This narrative of Pippen being a choker isnt anything new. I've been having this argument for years here. I just know it Jordan zealots making the argument.

[RogueBorg]

A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went,

Pippen didn't win wherever he went. It's a good story tho'

[RogueBorg]

Oh my God bro how are you missing this!!!!!? When have any of those players ever been considered a choker because of the moments I mentioned? This narrative of Pippen being a choker isnt anything new. I've been having this argument for years here. I just know it Jordan zealots making the argument.

Start a thread, let's talk about all of those other players.

[hateraid]

Not exactly surprising when the documentary was meant to fellate Jordan and make it seem that the rest of his team was scrubs.

Did ISH produce this documentary?

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh my God bro how are you missing this!!!!!? When have any of those players ever been considered a choker because of the moments I mentioned? This narrative of Pippen being a choker isnt anything new. I've been having this argument for years here. I just know it Jordan zealots making the argument.

He knows it too because he is in all the Pippen threads, saying how Pippen is overrated, just like all the other MJ zealots. Other players always come up in them--nothing about their (worse) warts of course. They will hype all those other players up to say every other 90's star was better than Pippen.

Moreover, I made a thread critical of Miller and he was one of the MJ stans complaining about it (somehow that is anti-MJ to these nutjobs!). So they can criticize Pippen 24/7 but if any other player gets critiqued 10 of them will flood the thread to complain about how much of a crime it is? Miller gets maybe 1 hostile thread a year and nutty MJ stans completely melted down. Meanwhile real fans had an actual basketball discussion about the OP.

People aren't posting about Magic's 84 finals all the time because Kareem fans are secure. The same reason why you don't see LeBron fans going around talking about Wade in the 14' finals every day.

[97 bulls]

Start a thread, let's talk about all of those other players.

You're missing the point here. Pippen is being called a choker ie the Noun. That's what he is in some people's warped minds. That's what I disagree with. As opposed to Pippen choked on a certain play which is the verb. Take for instance the 2 missed FTs vs Indiana.

Magic choked in 84 again verb. It doesnt mean he is a choker noun. There is a difference.

Those few plays shouldnt define him as a player. Because if he was as bad and as much of a choker as people say, the Bulls dont win 6 titles

If we were to make a thread on any of these players. Those moments will be mentioned, but not as defing them as a player. Because unlike Pippen, once they succeed, even once, all is forgiven. Think Dirk Nowitzki. They beat the Heat in 11. But no one really brings up them losing to the 8th seed Warriors the year before as a 1st seed.

Why isnt Pip given the same courtesy?

[RogueBorg]

Why isnt Pip given the same courtesy?

I've seen more than one poster stating Pippen is the 2nd best player of the 90's. It's going both ways.

[97 bulls]

I've seen more than one poster stating Pippen is the 2nd best player of the 90's. It's going both ways.

No, you saw former NBA players and Hall of Famers say he was the 2nd best player in the 90s. Like Charles Barkley and Isiah Thomas.

[Indian guy]

“Certain people” say Pippen was a choker and a poor playoff performer.

I don't think anyone's saying that. But compared to other ATG and championship-sidekicks, he's not very impressive. His play almost always took a dip from the RS; particularly as an offensive player, which was where he was relied upon most as the team's #2 option. Just look at his 6 championship postseason runs alone.

- His scoring dipped in 4 of the 6 runs.
- TS% dipped in each of the 6 runs. Regular season TS% 54%. Playoffs TS% 52%.
- FG% dipped in each of the 6 runs. Regular season FG% 48%. Playoff FG% 44%.
- His assists per game dipped in each of the 6 runs.

He was a mediocre offensive player for a #2 option on a championship team (much less a dynasty). 19 ppg on 52% TS in those 6 seasons. Decent scorer on below average league efficiency. Very fortunate to play most of his career next to the GOAT scoreer.

[Roundball_Rock]

But compared to other ATG and championship-sidekicks, he's not very impressive

Let's see that comparison...

This is exactly what I am talking about. Nit-pick Pippen, do not even bother to compare him to others. Stockton averaged single digits in a NBA finals and he was the second best sidekick of the 90's not a word from MJ stans.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just look at his 6 championship postseason runs alone.

- His scoring dipped in 4 of the 6 runs.

Fact check:

1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg

So the "dip" was -1 and -2, -2. Those two were driven by injuries. Moreover, in 97' he had a game where he played only 7 minutes drive down his averages.


Regular season TS% 54%. Playoffs TS% 52%.

Everybody's does, especially in the East because the defenses were tougher. That is not a material change.


His assists per game dipped in each of the 6 runs.

Whatever. Maybe by .2. Substantively they were the same.


He was a mediocre offensive player at best for a #2 option on a championship team (much less a dynasty). 19 ppg

Compared to?

Notice how MJ stans will praise Miller for scoring 21 or Hill for 21 and then call Pippen "mediocre" for averaging 20.

Also note he conveniently excludes 2 of Pippen's 3 peak years from his sample. :oldlol:

Why did the Bulls' offense go from #1 in scoring to #18 without him in 98'? "Medicore" offensive player causes a larger loss than MJ retiring?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is an actual comparison. You never get this from MJ stans: just drive by attacks on Pippen. This is why:

Statistical Comparison of 90's Sidekicks

Pippen (91’-98’): 20/7/6
Porter (90’-94’): 17/3/7
Daughtery (90’-94’): 20/10/4
Starks (92’-96’): 16/3/5
Johnson (93’-96’): 18/3/9
Kemp (93’-97’): 19/11/2
Penny (94’-96’): 20/5/7
Stockton (90’-98’): 15/3/12
Smits (94’-99’): 17/7/2
Drexler (95’-98’): 19/6/5

So he is scoring as much as anyone on the list--more in almost every case. "Mediocre scorer" doe! :lol

Plus Pippen lasted. He didn't break down like Penny or Daughtery or like Wade did with LeBron as other examples (and he played full seasons, not 50-60 games like Wade or Kyrie, outside of 98'). Nor did he age out quickly like Oscar with Kareem as another example.

All-NBA selections (first team in parentheses)

Pippen (91’-98’): 7 (3)
Porter (90’-94’): 0
Daughtery (90’-94’): 1 (0)
Starks (92’-96’): 0
Johnson (93’-96’): 1 (0)
Kemp (93’-97’): 3 (0)
Penny (94’-96’): 2 (2)
Stockton (90’-98’): 9 (2)
Smits (94’-99’): 0
Drexler (95’-98’): 1* (0)

MVP Finishes as Sidekick

Pippen: 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Porter: 9th
Daughtery: 10th, 11th, 11th
Starks: none
Johnson: 11th
Kemp: 7th, 8th
Penny: 3rd, 10th
Stockton: 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th (2x), 11th (2x), 12th (2x), 13th, 15th (2x)
Smits: 16th
Drexler: 14th

*He made the third team in 95’, when he spent most of the season as the #1 option in Portland.

Needless to say, Pippen looks great compared to the other "sidekicks" of the ti

[Roundball_Rock]

How about all-time on title teams during those teams' finals runs (from first to last with them as the sidekick)? From a thread on Oscar:

"Sidekicks” Statistically

Oscar (71’-74') 16/5/8
Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Wade (11’-14’) 22/5/5
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5
Gasol* (08’-10’) 19/10/3
McHale (84’-88’) 22/9/2
Klay (15’-16’) 22/4/3
Kobe (00’-02’) 25/6/5
Magic (80’-82’) 19/9/9
Pierce (08’-10’) 20/5/4
Dumars (88'-90') 16/3/5
Worthy (87'-91') 20/6/3

How about looking at all-NBA selections? Since there was no third team when Oscar played, to keep it apples to apples let’s look at 1st and 2nd team selections.

“Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

Mediocre! Not the same help as everybody else! Give him Kevin Johnson or John Stockon, finals chokers, but still 10 rings with them!

Wade, Irving, Oscar are striking. These are sidekicks MJ stans always point to as super duper awesome sidekicks.

These are bad faith attacks driven by a very insecure fan base. They aren't fact or reality based.

[ImKobe]

How about all-time? From a thread on Oscar:

Sidekicks” Statistically

Oscar (71’-74') 16/5/8
Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Wade (11’-14’) 22/5/5
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5
Gasol* (08’-10’) 19/10/3
McHale (84’-88’) 22/9/2
Klay (15’-16’) 22/4/3
Kobe (00’-02’) 25/6/5
Magic (80’-82’) 19/9/9
Pierce (08’-10’) 20/5/4
Dumars (88'-90') 16/3/5
Worthy (87'-91') 20/6/3

How about looking at all-NBA selections? Since there was no third team when Oscar played, to keep it apples to apples let’s look at 1st and 2nd team selections.

“Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

Here only Kobe and Pippen stick out. Oscar made it once in four seasons, but so did McHale and Wade. Still, that puts them ahead of sidekicks that never made it in that role on a finals team like Irving, Gasol, and Dumars to name a few.

Kind of mis-leading here, pretty sure you included Pippen's season as a #1 guy to inflate his averages while comparing it to other players' seasons as supporting players or 1a/1b in Kobe's case. Also, it's unfair taking a 7-year stretch from Pippen's career and comparing it to other players' 2-3-year stretches, you're not better than 3Ball with the anti-Jordan stuff.

[tpols]

I don't think anyone's saying that. But compared to other ATG and championship-sidekicks, he's not very impressive. His play almost always took a dip from the RS; particularly as an offensive player, which was where he was relied upon most as the team's #2 option. Just look at his 6 championship postseason runs alone.

- His scoring dipped in 4 of the 6 runs.
- TS% dipped in each of the 6 runs. Regular season TS% 54%. Playoffs TS% 52%.
- FG% dipped in each of the 6 runs. Regular season FG% 48%. Playoff FG% 44%.
- His assists per game dipped in each of the 6 runs.

He was a mediocre offensive player for a #2 option on a championship team (much less a dynasty). 19 ppg on 52% TS in those 6 seasons. Decent scorer on below average league efficiency. Very fortunate to play most of his career next to the GOAT scoreer.

yup.

and people laugh at reggie's playoffs 24 ppg 60+ TS with clutch ability.

it reminds me of the dirk garnett debate, except garnett was better than pippen offensively as well.

[Indian guy]

Fact check:

1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg

So the "dip" was -1 and -2, -2. Those two were driven by injuries. In 97' he had a game where he played only 7 minutes drive down his averages.

It did factually dip in 4 of the 6 runs :confusedshrug:. Most star players' scoring volume increases in the playoffs due to higher minutes and increased responsibility/usage (even if their efficiency drops). With Pippen both his ppg and ts% would take noticeable dips. His skill-set, obviously, wasn't most conducive to thrive against playoff defenses.


Why did the Bulls' offense go from #1 in scoring to #18 without him in 98'? "Medicore" offensive player causes a larger loss than MJ retiring?

Come on, dude. It's a 35 game sample size of a very old team on its last legs. Nothing like that '94 roster. You put MJ on '94 Bulls with no Pippen and they'd be a stronger contender for a top 5 offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade 2011-2014

Wade TS % during the RS: 57.5%
Wade TS % during the playoffs: 53.9%

Wade during the RS: 22/5/4
Wade during the PO: 20/5/4

Damn, what a choker! Who should we do next?


Kind of mis-leading here, pretty sure you included Pippen's season as a #1 guy to inflate his averages while comparing it to other players

Take it up with BBallreference's software. :lol His numbers are basically the same either way. Those years also coincide with his 3 year peak. Shall we remove the 2 peak years from the others too then?

We don't have a player temporarily becoming a #1 in the middle of a run in any other case, for obvious reasons.

[Roundball_Rock]

Most star players' scoring volume increases in the playoffs due to higher minutes and increased responsibility/usage (even if their efficiency drops)

I don't think so but let's put it to the test.


Come on, dude. It's a 35 game sample size of a very old team on its last legs

You have a Miami avatar and say this? You know full well the Miami machine kept humming without Wade (but not without LeBron, their Jordan).

Sorry Pippen didn't get hurt every year like awesome sidekicks like Wade and Irving. 98' is the only large sample we have with Pippen out during those title runs. We have 94' (Bulls went 4-6, versus 51-21 with him) but no MJ so that doesn't count, right? Going back further we 9 games--but in 89' (Bulls 4-5 :oldlol: ).

What about the sample size in Portland? What is the excuse for that (even though Pippen was past his prime)? What happened to Houston* and Portland after he left? His teams consistently got worse without him. It isn't hard to see why: he made the offense function more efficiently, made teammates better, and provided elite defense. All you guys care about is PPG.

*But, but, Barkley! No, they were 6-14 with Barkley.

[Indian guy]

Here is an actual comparison. You never get this from MJ stans: just drive by attacks on Pippen. This is why:

Statistical Comparison of 90's Sidekicks

Pippen (91’-98’): 20/7/6
Porter (90’-94’): 17/3/7
Daughtery (90’-94’): 20/10/4
Starks (92’-96’): 16/3/5
Johnson (93’-96’): 18/3/9
Kemp (93’-97’): 19/11/2
Penny (94’-96’): 20/5/7
Stockton (90’-98’): 15/3/12
Smits (94’-99’): 17/7/2
Drexler (95’-98’): 19/6/5

So he is scoring as much as anyone on the list--more in almost every case. "Mediocre scorer" doe! :lol

My post was about Pippen being a relatively inferior playoff performer compared to other all-time-greats and championship sidekicks. Especially offensively. 19 ppg on 52% TS is indeed very mediocre. And you conveniently keep leaving out efficiency when listing players' numbers lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Before we look at the data remember what Indian_Guy said: Pippen's TS going down 2.5% was really bad. He also noted Pippen's PPG declined. For reference, Pippen's PPG from 1991-1998 was 20.0 in the RS; 19.2 in the PO.

To recap: Pippen going from 54.6% TS to 52.1% and from 20.0 PPG 19.2 PPG was terrible. We already saw noted playoff choker D. Wade declined 3.6% and from 22.2 PPG to 20.3 PPG as a sidekick to LeBron. We know Pippen is a fraud; we now know Wade is to. How about others?

Let's look at some other peers of Pippen from the same era.

Ewing 1992-1999

RS: 23/11/2
PO: 22/11/2
RS TS: 54.4%
PO TS: 51.2%

So Ewing went down 3.2% and down from 23.0 PPG to 20.9 PPG. So he declined 2.1 PPG.

These were the years the Knicks were relevant. If you want to compare career numbers, basketballreference.com.

Drexler 1988-1997

RS: 23/7/6
PO: 22/7/6
RS TS: 55.3%
PO TS: 54.0%

Drexler's TS % declined was only half of Pippen's. His PPG went from 22.6 to 21.5--a larger decline than Pippen.

These years mostly cover when he was on a contender, but I threw in 88' to capture the front end of his prime.

Robinson 1990-1999

RS: 24/12/3
PO: 22/12/3
RS TS: 58.9%
PO TS: 55.1%

His TS % fell almost 4 full points (3.8%). His PPG went from 24.4 to 21.7 ppg--down almost 3 full points.

Let's get another full-time sidekick in here:

Stockton 1989-1998

RS: 15/3/12
PO: 14/3/11
RS TS: 61.7%
PO TS: 56.8%

Another huge drop--this time 4.9% in TS. His PPG went from 15.4 in the RS to 14.4 in the PO. Not a big decline--but still greater than Pippen's.

Malone 1989-1998

RS: 28/11/4
PO: 27/12/3
RS TS: 59.4%
PO TS: 53.3%

-6.1% in TS. 27.6 PPG in the RS to 27.2 PPG in the playoffs. So we finally find someone whose PPG drops less than Pippen's--it just takes extreme volume to do it with his 6.1% decline in TS %.

This data shouldn't be surprising. Playoffs=tougher defenses, usually elite ones, especially if a team makes a deep run. I am surprised, though, at the extent of these other player's declines...

Remember, though, Pippen is a choker; all these guys were beasts who MJ had to beat all by himself.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's put it in an easy table. I'll include Wade since I already got his info as well and he is the gold standard of sidekicks according to Pippen's detractors/MJ stans (along with Kyrie Irving and Oscar Robertson, especially his 13/4/6 in 74').

Stars Regular Season/Playoff Performance Comparison

PPG

Pippen -0.8
Wade -1.9
Ewing -2.1
Drexler -1.1
Robinson -2.7
Stockton -1.0
Malone -0.4

TS %

Pippen -2.5%
Wade -3.6%
Ewing -3.2%
Drexler -1.3%
Robinson -3.8%
Stockton -4.9%
Malone -6.1%

No wonder they have to diminish Pippen--Jordan played against a bunch of massive chokers (using their own definition of Pippen being reflective of a choker) who make Pippen look like the playoff GOAT comparatively. :oldlol:

One question to ask is why do you need a Pippen fan to supply this data? MJ stans have been saying Pippen was a choker forever. They surely have done the same type of analysis I did...

Anyone want to do Barkley and Payton? The point was made and I got bored but those guys are the obvious omissions. If not I'll do it later for a larger thread.

[senelcoolidge]

Pippen made himself look bad. He didn't have to participate in the documentary either. They are just bringing up things that Pippen did himself that were almost forgotten. Pippen refusing to enter a game because the play wasn't drawn for him..yes that really happened. He even said he would do it again. Who's fault is that?

[tpols]

Pippen made himself look bad. He didn't have to participate in the documentary either. They are just bringing up things that Pippen did himself that were almost forgotten. Pippen refusing to enter a game because the play wasn't drawn for him..yes that really happened. He even said he would do it again. Who's fault is that?

Scottie Pippen gotta be the least clutch "star" ever man. :lol

[ImKobe]

Pippen made himself look bad. He didn't have to participate in the documentary either. They are just bringing up things that Pippen did himself that were almost forgotten. Pippen refusing to enter a game because the play wasn't drawn for him..yes that really happened. He even said he would do it again. Who's fault is that?

Exactly. Even Lebron wouldn't do that. Jordan was willing to create an open shot for the likes of Kerr/Paxson with a championship on the line. Pippen quit in a tie game of a 2nd round series.

[PeteVecseySwag]

Exactly. Even Lebron wouldn't do that. Jordan was willing to create an open shot for the likes of Kerr/Paxson with a championship on the line. Pippen quit in a tie game of a 2nd round series.
Bingo

[tpols]

Exactly. Even Lebron wouldn't do that. Jordan was willing to create an open shot for the likes of Kerr/Paxson with a championship on the line. Pippen quit in a tie game of a 2nd round series.

kinda makes you realize how insecure he was about being in MJ's shadow.

imagine being at the peak of your career, an MVP candidate, and a ROOKIE is trusted with a last second shot over you in a playoff game to not go down 3-0.

:biggums:

Pippen lost his shit over that because it showed even phil, after a 3 peat together, knew pippen wasnt clutch.

[Roundball_Rock]

What happened to the playoff choking conversation? Too many facts, huh? :lol


Exactly. Even Lebron wouldn't do that. Jordan was willing to create an open shot for the likes of Kerr/Paxson with a championship on the line. Pippen quit in a tie game of a 2nd round series.

Mythology. When Blatt drew a play for someone else LeBron just overruled Blatt and called it for himself. Jordan complained when Collins called it for someone and got him to change the play to MJ (the Ehlo shot).

So not egregious misconduct like Pippen did but it is mythology that these guys were good ole' soldiers who would be a-okay with the same decision because they weren't.

[Soundwave]

What happened to the playoff choking conversation? Too many facts, huh? :lol



Mythology. When Blatt drew a play for someone else LeBron just overruled Blatt and called it for himself. Jordan complained when Collins called it for someone and got him to change the play to MJ (the Ehlo shot).

So not egregious misconduct like Pippen did but it is mythology that these guys were good ole' soldiers who would be a-okay with the same decision because they weren't.

I don't think anyone debates that coaches/players can have disagreements about play calls, that happens all the time.

Going to the point on refusing to go into a game though is fairly unprecedented though. No one behaves like that. It's not like Phil Jackson was some newb coach that hadn't earned a little bit of leeway.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agreed. No excuse for what he did. The action in of it self--forcing a new inbounder--wasn't Earth shattering but the team chemistry could have imploded in the middle of a playoff series because of what he did. That didn't happen because of Cartwright and Pippen himself and what happened among the team, but the risk was there in a winnable series (knowing the ECF opponent would a team the Bulls would be favored over).

[32jazz]

Let's see that comparison...

This is exactly what I am talking about. Nit-pick Pippen, do not even bother to compare him to others. Stockton averaged single digits in a NBA finals and he was the second best sidekick of the 90's not a word from MJ stans.


Pippen should have forced his way out of Chicago sometimes after the 1st 3peat . Never seen an all time great so belittled.

[Soundwave]

I think Scottie is more upset that he's got a nice new budding ESPN career on the TV side and enjoying life in Los Angeles and this kind of brings up some issues that are probably brand new to younger fans.

But this dude is also sometimes (hate to say it) dumb or stubborn as a brick wall, why would you on camera say you would basically do the same thing again, lol. Like what is going on in your head as you're saying that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen should have forced his way out of Chicago sometimes after the 1st 3peat . Never seen an all time great so belittled.

Yeah. Kyrie made the right move. I don't get all these people saying how much of a boon it was that he spent nearly his entire prime with MJ. That literally is the one thing he gets attacked for the most: that he wasn't a #1 option. Clearly inferior players are argued as better decades later because they were "#1" (even if they commanded less usage than Pippen did in his offense as a #2). Sure we saw Pippen as a #1 for 1 3/4 seasons but it was only one playoff run and bad faith actors will say it isn't enough of a sample size (while later saying because they lost that one year that a team with him as their #1 would lose every year if he had a full prime as a #1--the sample size is fine for that purpose--because we know teams lose in the same exact round every single year :lol ).

Pippen had 3 rings. He could have left for somewhere else and had the best of both worlds: he would always be known as a winner but would have gotten more MVP consideration, more all-NBA 1st teams, and more general recognition as a #1 elsewhere. He basically did the same stuff with or without MJ but the recognition was there when MJ wasn't.

The bar (evidently) is really low so long as you are "da man." If his team got to the finals once all these clowns would be celebrating it years later (Ewing, Barkley, Payton as examples did it once, lost and get parades thrown for it years later). Even making the conference finals is fine. That is basically all Reggie Miller did until he was 34. That is all David Robinson did as a #1--one time. You don't even need to win. Just get close, get toasted years later--unless you are LeBron.

It apparently is worse to win 3 more rings on all-time great teams.

[Soundwave]

Scottie did demand to be traded in 1995 too, lol, before Jordan came back, the situation in Chicago was falling apart.

Jordan probably in that scenario where there is no Pippen plays out a year in Chicago and then goes to LA or New York as a free agent and wins there.

I'll be honest he should've just gone with Phil to LA in 2000.

He was still at age 38 a top end player (25/5/5 with the Wizards before he hurt his knee, pushing a mediocre 19 win team to a 18-16 record to that point as an old man).

But super-teaming I guess was not really something he was big on. He could've picked up an easy 2-3 titles in LA if he really wanted to. I know there was some buzz/talk about it that Phil could bring Michael with him, get him out of retirement when he went to LA in 1999.

It was a shame he got lured in by that trash tier Wizards franchise.

[Roundball_Rock]

He didn't demand it strongly enough, apparently, since none of the trades happened.

A lot of this is it was a different era. No superstar has long contracts these days (people remember Pippen but forget Jordan had a similar 8 year contract) so any player who threatens to leave is going to get their request acceded to as teams worry about losing that player for nothing. Davis, George, Kawhi are all recent examples. Same thing with the Game 3 Jackson situation. In today's league the coach would be terrified of angering a superstar or Pippen would simply overrule him like LeBron did.

Free agency has given superstars a lot of power they didn't have back then.


before Jordan came back, the situation in Chicago was falling apart

What? They were having their best stretch of the season at that point. They were 23-25 at the break but 11-6 after before MJ came back (Bulls went 0-2 without Pippen and lost another game where he was ejected in the second quarter for throwing a chair :lol ). Even without MJ they had the #2 SRS in the East (the SRS of the 95' Suns for reference). We always hear of SRS for the 94' team (except for the detail about them sucking when Pippen was out, deflating their season long SRS) but never the 95' team. They were starting to win games by double digits before MJ.

The Bulls had lost Jordan, Grant, Cartwright so 3 starters. Scott Williams also left as a free agent so that was basically all their key big men gone in one offseason. Harper signed for 95'. Kukoc became the #2 option after being #4 and a reserve as a rookie. It was always going to take some time to adapt.

The East was not 10 feet tall as MJ fans like to make it out to be. Indiana won the Central Division at 52-30 and had the third best record in the East. For all the talk about the Bulls in 95' they weren't that far behind the Pacers, who I am told were this awesome team, and closer still to the Hornets (who finished 4th with 50 wins).

The Bulls with Pippen were on a 46 win pace (excluding the 2 games he missed plus the loss to a 17 win team due to his ejection), Indiana a 51 win pace, Charlotte a 50 win pace. These aren't big differences when you factor in the Bulls' SRS (that of a 42-23 team). Indiana made the ECF the previous year at 47 wins and did it again in 95' at 52 wins.

[Soundwave]

He didn't demand it strongly enough, apparently, since none of the trades happened.

A lot of this is it was a different era. No superstar has long contracts these days (people remember Pippen but forget Jordan had a similar 8 year contract) so any player who threatens to leave is going to get their request acceded to as teams worry about losing that player for nothing. Davis, George, Kawhi are all recent examples. Same thing with the Game 3 Jackson situation. In today's league the coach would be terrified of angering a superstar or Pippen would simply overrule him like LeBron did.

Free agency has given superstars a lot of power they didn't have back then. Th



What? They were having their best stretch of the season at that point. They were 23-25 at the break but 11-6 after before MJ came back (Bulls went 0-2 without Pippen and lost another game where he was ejected in the second quarter for throwing a chair :lol ). Even without MJ they had the #2 SRS in the East (the SRS of the 95' Suns for reference). We always hear of SRS for the 94' team (except for the detail about them sucking when Pippen was out, deflating their season long SRS) but never the 95' team. They were starting to win games by double digits before MJ.

The Bulls had lost Jordan, Grant, Cartwright so 3 starters. Scott Williams also left as a free agent so that was basically all their key big men gone in one offseason. Harper signed for 95'. Kukoc became the #2 option after being #4 and a reserve as a rookie. It was always going to take some time to adapt.

The East was not 10 feet tall as MJ fans like to make it out to be. Indiana won the Central Division at 52-30 and had the third best record in the East. For all the talk about the Bulls in 95' they weren't that far behind the Pacers, who I am told were this awesome team, and closer still to the Hornets (who finished 4th with 50 wins).

The Bulls with Pippen were on a 46 win pace (so excluding the games he missed plus the loss to a 17 win team due to his ejection), Indiana a 51 win pace, Charlotte a 50 win pace. These aren't big differences when you factor in the Bulls' SRS (that of a 42-23 team).

This is earlier that same season, Pippen asking to be traded to the Suns:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLFqk2JZEhM

This probably would have happened eventually, but a baseball strike happens, suddenly Jordan is interested in coming back and basically the entire basketball world is turned upside down.

[Indian guy]

Before we look at the data remember what Indian_Guy said: Pippen's TS going down 2.5% was really bad. He also noted Pippen's PPG declined. For reference, Pippen's PPG from 1991-1998 was 20.0 in the RS; 19.2 in the PO.

To recap: Pippen going from 54.6% TS to 52.1% and from 20.0 PPG 19.2 PPG was terrible. We already saw noted playoff choker D. Wade declined 3.6% and from 22.2 PPG to 20.3 PPG as a sidekick to LeBron. We know Pippen is a fraud; we now know Wade is to. How about others?

Let's look at some other peers of Pippen from the same era.

Ewing 1992-1999

RS: 23/11/2
PO: 22/11/2
RS TS: 54.4%
PO TS: 51.2%

So Ewing went down 3.2% and down from 23.0 PPG to 20.9 PPG. So he declined 2.1 PPG.

These were the years the Knicks were relevant. If you want to compare career numbers, basketballreference.com.

Drexler 1988-1997

RS: 23/7/6
PO: 22/7/6
RS TS: 55.3%
PO TS: 54.0%

Drexler's TS % declined was only half of Pippen's. His PPG went from 22.6 to 21.5--a larger decline than Pippen.

These years mostly cover when he was on a contender, but I threw in 88' to capture the front end of his prime.

Robinson 1990-1999

RS: 24/12/3
PO: 22/12/3
RS TS: 58.9%
PO TS: 55.1%

His TS % fell almost 4 full points (3.8%). His PPG went from 24.4 to 21.7 ppg--down almost 3 full points.

Let's get another full-time sidekick in here:

Stockton 1989-1998

RS: 15/3/12
PO: 14/3/11
RS TS: 61.7%
PO TS: 56.8%

Another huge drop--this time 4.9% in TS. His PPG went from 15.4 in the RS to 14.4 in the PO. Not a big decline--but still greater than Pippen's.

Malone 1989-1998

RS: 28/11/4
PO: 27/12/3
RS TS: 59.4%
PO TS: 53.3%

-6.1% in TS. 27.6 PPG in the RS to 27.2 PPG in the playoffs. So we finally find someone whose PPG drops less than Pippen's--it just takes extreme volume to do it with his 6.1% decline in TS %.

This data shouldn't be surprising. Playoffs=tougher defenses, usually elite ones, especially if a team makes a deep run. I am surprised, though, at the extent of these other player's declines...

Remember, though, Pippen is a choker; all these guys were beasts who MJ had to beat all by himself.

You are taking 25-32 year old Pippen's career, essentially his prime, and including well past-their-prime years for the other guys. Ewing/Drexler/Stockton/Malone were all 35-36 years old by 98-99. It's not a fair comparison at all. Even then, my original point wasn't just that Pippen's numbers declined across the board every postseason, but the fact that his numbers weren't THAT impressive for an ATG/championship 2nd option as it is (not that he wasn't a very good player). 19 ppg, 5.5 apg on 52% TS during 6 title runs is not blowing anyone away. And 2 of those runs featured sub-17 ppg on below 50% TS. Very ordinary stuff. Which isn't to say his impact wasn't star-level. He was a great defender, obviously. But this whole MJ-was-so-lucky-to-have-Pippen argument simply doesn't fly. Compared to 2nd options on other teams that won championships, Pippen wasn't anything out of the norm.

[Soundwave]

You are taking 25-32 year old Pippen's career, essentially his prime, and including well past-their-prime years for the other guys. Ewing/Drexler/Stockton/Malone were all 35-36 years old by 98-99. It's not a fair comparison at all. Even then, my original point wasn't just that Pippen's numbers declined across the board every postseason, but the fact that his numbers weren't THAT impressive for an ATG/Championship 2nd option as it is. 19 ppg on 52% TS during 6 title runs is pretty meh. A PER of 19.3 is ordinary for a star. Which isn't to say his impact wasn't star-level. He was a great defender, obviously. But this whole MJ-was-so-lucky-to-have-Pippen argument simply doesn't fly. Compared to 2nd options on other teams that won championships, Pippen wasn't anything out of the norm.

He's a good player, but yeah I take issue much on the same grounds. He deserves his due and he does get it. But he wasn't some "MJ could only win with Scottie" ... that is nonsense. Every other top 10 player has had equal or better help comparatively to Jordan when winning titles.

[Roundball_Rock]

These are bad faith arguments by people who want to flyspeck Pippen to diminish him but will not apply an iota of the same logic to any other star. In fact, they actually gloss over the (many more) warts those players usually have. Agenda, agenda, agenda. Maybe some day MJ stans will become secure but I doubt it.


You are taking 25-32 year old Pippen's career, essentially his prime, and including well past-their-prime years for the other guys. Ewing/Drexler/Stockton/Malone were all 35-36 years old by 98-99. It's not a fair comparison at all

Then run the numbers whichever way you like it. Basketballreference.com. You won't because you know it is not going to materially change things to add Ewing going out in the 1st round in 91' (scoring 17 PPG against the Bulls BTW).

Age isn't that relevant since they are the same age in the RS as the playoffs in a given season. We are capturing the relative declines.


but the fact that his numbers weren't THAT impressive for an ATG/Championship 2nd option as it is

You can't have it both ways: when you are shown the numbers and accolades for second options on comparable teams and you dismissed it.

Why no comment on Wade? According to you, Wade sucked. LeBron must be the GOAT then for winning with a guy who sucked even more than Pippen did.

[RRR3]

He had 2 All Defense Teamers in Pippen and Grant and one who would rank 4th in PER when he wasn't playing , yes Pippen! who also happens to be the best defender ever at his position. He had all this for his 1st three rings. He then also had the best rebounder in the league in Rodman (also one of the best post defenders), the best 6thman in the league in versatile Kukoc, a good defensive guard in Harperm a 7´2 good rim protector and best Australian player ever in Longley. He also had 3 elite shooters in Paxon, Hodges and Kerr for all his rings.

Bulls where stacked!
Did you just call Luc friggin' Longley the best Australian player ever? How on EARTH is he better than (off the top of my head) Kyrie Irving, Ben Simmons, Andrew Bogut, Joe Ingles or Patty Mills?

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's look at playoff scoring. We only have one prime playoff run for Pippen as a #1 option, and he happened to face the #1 defense during that but anyway let's compare his "scoring" to these others during those playoffs:

Pippen 22.8
Robinson 20.0
Shaq 20.7
Hakeem 28.9
Malone 27.1
Ewing 21.9
Barkley 27.6
Miller 23.2
Kemp 14.8
Price 15.0
Payton 15.8
Stockton 14.4

Do you see them ever say a word about any of these players in the playoffs? No, they portray each one of them as giants that the great MJ slayed all by himself.

What they never mention is scoring was lower back then. Scoring 20 then was not the same as 20 today. Pippen was 8th in scoring at 22 PPG; today 22 PPG would have you 18th. 8th is 26 PPG with current scoring inflation.

It is entirely possible Pippen is a fraud--but if so that means MJ played in a joke era where a scrub like him was considered an elite player.

[Soundwave]

Let's look at playoff scoring. We only have one prime playoff run for Pippen as a #1 option, and he happened to face the #1 defense during that but anyway let's compare his "scoring" to these others during those playoffs:

Pippen 22.8
Robinson 20.0
Shaq 20.7
Hakeem 28.9
Malone 27.1
Ewing 21.9
Barkley 27.6
Miller 23.2
Kemp 14.8
Price 15.0
Payton 15.8
Stockton 14.4

Do you see them ever say a word about any of these players in the playoffs? No, they portray each one of them as giants that the great MJ slayed all by himself.

What they never mention is scoring was lower back then. Scoring 20 then was not the same as 20 today. Pippen was 8th in scoring at 22 PPG; today 22 PPG would have you 18th. 8th is 26 PPG with current scoring inflation.

It is entirely possible Pippen is a fraud--but if so that means MJ played in a joke era where a scrub like him was considered an elite player.

Your arguement is dumb because every great player has played with at least one other very good player.

Why aren't you sniping at Kareem for playing with Magic AND Worthy?

No one has a case as a superstar player for winning 3+ titles without at least one other high end player on the team.

No one. The players Jordan played with are not anything that special relative to any other top 10 player, they're probably lower end than a few of those guys.

The crux of your debate is not in logic its in your feelings, which are jealousy that Jordan gets too much attention.

[32jazz]

Yeah. Kyrie made the right move. I don't get all these people saying how much of a boon it was that he spent nearly his entire prime with MJ. That literally is the one thing he gets attacked for the most: that he wasn't a #1 option. Clearly inferior players are argued as better decades later because they were "#1" (even if they commanded less usage than Pippen did in his offense as a #2). Sure we saw Pippen as a #1 for 1 3/4 seasons but it was only one playoff run and bad faith actors will say it isn't enough of a sample size (while later saying because they lost that one year that a team with him as their #1 would lose every year if he had a full prime as a #1--the sample size is fine for that purpose--because we know teams lose in the same exact round every single year :lol ).

Pippen had 3 rings. He could have left for somewhere else and had the best of both worlds: he would always be known as a winner but would have gotten more MVP consideration, more all-NBA 1st teams, and more general recognition as a #1 elsewhere. He basically did the same stuff with or without MJ but the recognition was there when MJ wasn't.

The bar (evidently) is really low so long as you are "da man." If his team got to the finals once all these clowns would be celebrating it years later (Ewing, Barkley, Payton as examples did it once, lost and get parades thrown for it years later). Even making the conference finals is fine. That is basically all Reggie Miller did until he was 34. That is all David Robinson did as a #1--one time. You don't even need to win. Just get close, get toasted years later--unless you are LeBron.

It apparently is worse to win 3 more rings on all-time great teams. I couldn't articulate it better. Especially when your are Pippen & your teammate has this bizarre personality cult type following .

Kobe knew he would have gotten similar treatment had he won 4/5 rings with Shaq & he wanted no part of being "Pippened". I now understand Kyrie, Kobe & even K. Leonard ( " good Popovich system guy" ) to an extent. You have your ring & you'd probably be a happeier man "striking out on your own". Win or lose.

[Roundball_Rock]

Your arguement is dumb because every great player has played with at least one other very good player.

Odd that "my argument is dumb" when my position is exactly what you stated. :lol


Why aren't you sniping at Kareem for playing with Magic AND Worthy?

Notice the context excluded here? Kareem was 33 in the playoffs when he got Magic. 35 when Magic became an all-NBA players. Kareem was 100 when Worthy became Worthy.

Same thing with Oscar. Oscar was 32 when Kareem got him and Oscar was done as an all-NBA player after that season and done as an all-star by the second. He goes 13/4/6 in 74' as the Bucks go to the finals (lose in 7) and the very same people who tell you Pippen sucks every day will hype the 13/4/6 player. If 20/8/6 is mediocre what is 13/4/6?

[Soundwave]

Kobe and Shaq was never going to work long term, anything with two eyes could see that coming 10,000 miles away.

Kobe is a stubborn personality and so is Shaq, Kobe was supremely skilled and gifted and modelled his game after Jordan (not Pippen). He was always going to insist on being the no.1 option and that was always going to be a problem for Shaq.

[RRR3]

Scottie Pippen gotta be the least clutch "star" ever man. :lol
Are you implying Pippen wasn't a star?

This might be your worst post yet.

[Roundball_Rock]

I couldn't articulate it better. Especially when your are Pippen & your teammate has this bizarre personality cult type following .

Kobe knew he would have gotten similar treatment had he won 4/5 rings with Shaq & he wanted no part of being "Pippened". I now understand Kyrie, Kobe & even K. Leonard ( " good Popovich system guy" ) to an extent. You have your ring & you'd probably be a happeier man "striking out on your own". Win or lose.

Forgot about Kobe but yeah he is the best example of this. It also shows the importance of having quality "help." If the Lakers don't get Gasol and Kobe never wins without Shaq (and probably doesn't make a finals) his legacy would be completely different. Now we "know" Pippen was "mediocre" help so I don't know where Gasol falls on that spectrum but suffice it to say the Lakers didn't win anything until he got there.

I think these guys saw what happened to Pippen and learned. Basically being a #2 option sucks. Pippen did about all you could do as a #2 option. 1st team all-NBA, top 5 in MVP voting (people forget that he was in 96' too), was considered a top 5 player, etc. and now he has an army of fans saying he sucks every day.


Are you implying Pippen wasn't a star?

He thinks Pippen=Iggy.

[Soundwave]

Odd that "my argument is dumb" when my position is exactly what you stated. :lol



Notice the context excluded here? Kareem was 33 in the playoffs when he got Magic. 35 when Magic became an all-NBA players. Kareem was 100 when Worthy became Worthy.

Same thing with Oscar. Oscar was 32 when Kareem got him and Oscar was done as an all-NBA player after that season and done as an all-star by the second. He goes 13/4/6 in 74' as the Bucks go to the finals (lose in 7) and the very same people who tell you Pippen sucks every day will hype the 13/4/6 player. If 20/8/6 is mediocre what is 13/4/6?

You make excuses for every other player, but it's a double standard then. LeBron has gotten to play with Wade and Bosh in their 20s. And Kyrie in his 20s. And now AD in his 20s.

Where are your threads b*tching about that?

Kareem got lifted to the majority of his titles on basically an All-Star team for the second half of his career but you don't utter a peep about that.

Bird had basically an All-Star team around him by his 2nd/3rd year also. No mention of that.

Shaq had Kobe, Wade, and Penny ... no real problem with you on that.

You are angry at Jordan for being that good that he gets a lot of attention and are acting like a jealous high school girl trying to spread gossip about the good looking girl she's threatened by in spamming this board with hundreds of posts.

There is nothing unusual or different or amazing about the players Jordan played with relative to what Kareem, Russell, LeBron, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Kobe, etc. etc. got.

[Roundball_Rock]

More bad faith from Team Jordan. As you know, because you were in that KAJ thread, I think it is dumb to play the "who had who" game--that is what your peeps do with everyone except for MJ. You yourself did it with Kareem.


LeBron has gotten to play with Wade and Bosh in their 20s.

We have to have one standard. If Pippen was "mediocre help" what was Wade? Wade fell off even more than Pippen and the only category Wade outproduced Pippen was by 2 PPG. Pippen=more boards, assists and much more defense.

You guys can't have it both ways: Pippen is this bum and then not apply the Pippen standard to others. Let's use Pippen as the "mediocre" bar. What does that mean Wade was? Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG in a finals? Starks? Where was Terry Porter again in the 92' finals? The choking Kevin Johnson in 93'? Gasol in the 08' finals?

I like the Pippen standard. Pippen himself sucks so any sidekick worse them him was a scrub. Therefore, LeBron won with no help (unlike MJ who got "some" help)! :bowdown:

[Indian guy]

Then run the numbers whichever way you like it. Basketballreference.com.

I'll get to it soon enough.


Why no comment on Wade? According to you, Wade sucked. LeBron must be the GOAT then for winning with a guy who sucked even more than Pippen did.

Wade was pretty damn good in 2011 and 2012. Offensively those 2 postseasons he's superior to any of Pippen's 6 title runs. He played with a bum knee in 2013 and pretty much sucked, no denying that. A brutal 2014 Finals gives people a misleading view of his play that postseason. He actually averaged 19 ppg on 58% TS through the first 3 rounds.

[Soundwave]

Sorry RR but you lie and stretch sh*t as much as anyone else.

Like he tries to say Pippen was a 20/8/7 player relative to Oscar, but you conveniently shy away from comparing them at age 32 ...

Pippen was 16.8 ppg/7 rpg/5 apg on 41% shooting in the 98 playoffs (numbers are worse in the Finals) at age 32 and Jordan was 36, not in his 20s like Kareem was. The Bulls still won the title with Jordan as the no.1 option, no excuses.

[Round Mound]

Did you just call Luc friggin' Longley the best Australian player ever? How on EARTH is he better than (off the top of my head) Kyrie Irving, Ben Simmons, Andrew Bogut, Joe Ingles or Patty Mills?

At that time...and also you can't deny the Bulls where stacked compared to other teams on both ends of the floor

[ImKobe]

At that time...and also you can't deny the Bulls where stacked compared to other teams on both ends of the floor

Luc Longley was a mediocre big man..

[Soundwave]

At that time...and also you can't deny the Bulls where stacked compared to other teams on both ends of the floor

No more so than the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 2000s Lakers, Super-Teamed Heat.

None of the top guys on those teams can say sh*t about some how winning on their own so why is one team held to a completely different standard.

Because RR is jealous of one player and angry that he was too good and gets too much attention.

There is no f**king NBA top 10 talent who can say with a straight face "I won titles on my own". Nobody. When that player comes, gimme a call because it hasn't happened in 70+ years.

[Roundball_Rock]

I do not lie; do not project your lack of integrity on me. I actually work to bring facts forward.

I don't get involved in cherry picking specific years or series--that is something deceptive MJ stans like to do. I have facts on my side--no need to do that. I use legitimate sample sizes. I don't argue things without having the receipts to back it up. Try it some time.

Pippen in 98' was still a superstar. What you concealed was his dominant defense, which was the story of his playoff run.


The Bulls still won the title with Jordan as the no.1 option, no excuses.

Yeah, a 3-1 lead with Pippen dominating on defense. All MJ! These guys live in fairy tale land.


Wade was pretty damn good in 2011 and 2012

The hypocrisy is shameless. Pippen had better numbers and more impact factored in defense. Pippen was "mediocre", Wade "pretty damn good."


No more so than the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 2000s Lakers, Super-Teamed Heat.

:roll: Look at his own post. The Lakers, Celtics had peers even by his own admission and then you have the Sixers and Pistons that he omitted. 2000's Lakers had the Spurs.

[Soundwave]

I do not lie; do not project your lack of integrity on me. I actually work to bring facts forward.

I don't get involved in cherry picking specific years or series--that is something deceptive MJ stans like to do. I have facts on my side--no need to do that. I don't argue things without having the receipts to back it up. Try it some time.

Pippen in 98' was still a superstar. What you concealed was his dominant defense, which was the story of his playoff run.



Yeah, a 3-1 lead with Pippen dominating on defense. All MJ! These guys live in fairy tale land.



The hypocrisy is shameless.

So 32 year old Pippen gets tons of credit for 98 Finals for 15.7 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 4.8 rpg on 41% shooting but 32 year old Oscar was a bum for Kareem?

You're full of sh*t and do the exact same thing as the people you're "lecturing". Get off your high horse, you're no better than any one else.

[Roundball_Rock]

So Pippen gets tons of credit for 98 Finals for 15.7 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 4.8 rpg on 41% shooting but Oscar was a bum for Kareem?


Why don't you tell them the whole story? Why are you concealing material facts? When did an injury occur and what happened in the series before that? You know it but let's see if you have the integrity to say it (doubt you do).

This guy is trying to tell you Pippen in the 98' finals=Oscar in the 74' finals. Shameless. Like Oscar did anything in that series. :lol

This is why they have to lie, deceive, etc. They pick really dumbass arguments and box themselves in.

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Why don't you tell them the whole story? Why are you concealing material facts?

These guys are clowns. Deception after deception from a trash fan base.

You're a clown, probably some 5'9 jerk off that never played a minute of organized basketball in his life thinking he has the magic answer against the best player that ever played which is agreed upon by many, many people, players, media, and fans alike.

Why the f*ck should anyone care what you think, who the f*ck died and made you an authority on NBA basketball.

[tpols]

You're a clown, probably some 5'9 jerk off that never played a minute of organized basketball in his life thinking he has the magic answer against the best player that ever played which is agreed upon by many, many people, players, media, and fans alike.

Why the f*ck should anyone care what you think, who the f*ck died and made you an authority on NBA basketball.

the worst takes are when you see a guy quoting a million numbers, giving us a custom painted spreadsheet.

:roll:

just cherrypicking off a data base with no contextual explanation or understanding.

way it goes...

[Round Mound]

No more so than the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 2000s Lakers, Super-Teamed Heat.

None of the top guys on those teams can say sh*t about some how winning on their own so why is one team held to a completely different standard.

Because RR is jealous of one player and angry that he was too good and gets too much attention.

There is no f**king NBA top 10 talent who can say with a straight face "I won titles on my own". Nobody. When that player comes, gimme a call because it hasn't happened in 70+ years.

Agree the 80s was even more stacked (thats why Jordan could not win in the 80's)

Jordan had the most help pf any other 90's supestar thats indéniable.

Pippen was incredible in his prime!

[Roundball_Rock]

Check mate. At least you admitting you lack integrity.

For the benefit of younger posters, Pippen was dominating the series defensively while chipping in 20 PPG through four games (Chicago led 3-1). At that point he was the front-runner for FMVP. Then he suffered a back injury and that was it for him as an offensive force.

Moreover, one of his best games was when he went 10/4/4. MJ stans don't understand anything other than PPG but here is what the New York Times said about it. Remember, 10/4/4 was the stat line ("15.7 PPG").

This is what was concealed:

Since most MJ fans here evidently didn't watch it here is what those who did said at the time:


At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll
By MIKE WISE
Published: June 9, 1998

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

After the Jazz practiced at the United Center today, Sloan was asked whether Pippen was guilty of defending illegally -- guarding the ball instead of his man -- a violation punishable by a technical foul after a warning. Sloan, perhaps Chicago's greatest defender before this current group of Bulls made their mark, would not take the bait.

''I didn't hear them call it, so I guess there was no illegal defense,'' he said. ''I think floater is the right word. Pippen is floating, and a lot of people didn't recognize it. We didn't adjust to it. It's not like we had time to stop the game and practice on it for a while.''

Pippen was also the subject of a diatribe by Larry Bird, the Indiana Pacers' coach, after the first two games of the Eastern Conference finals. Bird wanted to know why Pippen was allowed to bump and push a smaller, less-athletic player like Pacers point guard Mark Jackson and not get called for fouls.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

Whereas everyone remembers Steve Kerr's game-winning shot in Game 6 of last season's finals against the Jazz, few recall what happened moments later. Pippen deflected the inbounds pass on the other end to Toni Kukoc, who dunked to seal the victory and Chicago's fifth title.

''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

15.7 PPG, doe. :roll:

Now where is the article on what Oscar did in 74' (that was the 13/4/6 year, not 71')?

I don't pose as an authority--I let the facts do the talking for me. Which is why I bring real facts.

[Soundwave]

Check mate. At least you admitting you lack integrity.

For the benefit of younger posters, Pippen was dominating the series defensively while chipping in 20 PPG through four games (Chicago led 3-1). At that point he was the front-runner for FMVP. Then he suffered a back injury and that was it for him as an offensive force.

Moreover, one of his best games was when he went 10/4/4. MJ stans don't understand anything other than PPG but here is what the New York Times said about it. Remember, 10/4/4 was the stat line ("15.7 PPG").

This is what was concealed:

Since most MJ fans here evidently didn't watch it here is what those who did said at the time:



http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

15.7 PPG, doe. :roll:

Now where is the article on what Oscar did in 74' (that was the 13/4/6 year, not 71')?

Yes and?

Now show me where Kareem won an NBA title on his own. Or LeBron. Or Magic. Or Shaq. Or Russell.

You're not some f**king genius for showing Scottie Pippen was a good player, every superstar top 10 player has had the benefit of similar talent or better every time they won anything worth shit.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree the 80s was even more stacked (thats why Jordan could not win in the 80's)

Jordan had the most help pf any other 90's supestar thats indéniable.

Pippen was incredible in his prime!

How many other team could contend for the #1 seed with their best player retiring at the last minute (which means no opportunity to replace him)? All they give is names. Never any performance. The only team I could think of is the Warriors if KD retired in the preseason.

This guy mentioned the Lakers and Celtics. Those teams became .500 teams and first round fodder without Magic and Bird.


Yes and?

So nothing on Oscar 74'? :lol

[Round Mound]

How many other team could contend for the #1 seed with their best player retiring at the last minute (which means no opportunity to replace him)? All they give is names. Never any performance. The only team I could think of is the Warriors if KD retired in the preseason.

This guy mentioned the Lakers and Celtics. Those teams became .500 teams and first round fodder without Magic and Bird.



So nothing on Oscar 74'? :lol

:applause:

[Soundwave]

How many other team could contend for the #1 seed with their best player retiring at the last minute (which means no opportunity to replace him)? All they give is names. Never any performance. The only team I could think of is the Warriors if KD retired in the preseason.

This guy mentioned the Lakers and Celtics. Those teams became .500 teams and first round fodder without Magic and Bird.



So nothing on Oscar 74'? :lol

So does that make the Raptors one of the greatest teams of all time?

They lost Kawhi Leonard and are on pace for 59 wins last I checked.

When and where do you ever talk about them? Pascal Siakim for league MVP? Anyone campaigning for that?

Yeah didn't think so. The Bulls were well on their way to being a .500 team that was 1st round fodder for someone else by 94-95. A random ass baseball strike completely bailed them out, plain and simple.

[ImKobe]

So does that make the Raptors one of the greatest teams of all time?

They lost Kawhi Leonard and are pace for 59 wins last I checked.

When and where do you ever talk about them? Pascal Siakim for league MVP? Anyone campaigning for that?

Yeah didn't think so. The Bulls were well on their way to being a .500 team that was 1st round fodder for someone else in 94-95.

The anti-Jordan camp always seem to overlook this. Would Mj have quit on a 2nd round series like Pippen did, because Phil thought they had a better play to win a tie game? Last time I checked, Jordan actually trusted his teammates to hit a big shot.

[RRR3]

So does that make the Raptors one of the greatest teams of all time?

They lost Kawhi Leonard and are pace for 59 wins last I checked.

When and where do you ever talk about them? Pascal Siakim for league MVP? Anyone campaigning for that?

Yeah didn't think so. The Bulls were well on their way to being a .500 team that was 1st round fodder for someone else in 94-95.
The 19 Raptors were legit. It's possible they will have had 4 HOFers when it's all said and done. Kawhi is obviously first ballot, and Lowry will very likely make it eventually (not first ballot though, that's for sure). I would imagine Marc Gasol gets in as well, especially considering his international career. Siakam has just recently entered his prime, so while he's probably not going to have a HOF career (they are rare), it's still possible he will. Additionally, they had great role players like Serge Ibaka, Danny Green, Fred VanVleet and Norman Powell who all had huge impacts at various times in the playoffs (maybe not Green, but the others for sure and Green's defense and gravity are still valuable even when he is sucking ass, like he admittedly did in the 19 playoffs). That team was awesome, and had the best defense I've ever seen in the playoffs. Absolute lockdown. There's a reason they've done so well without Kawhi.

[97 bulls]

Check mate. At least you admitting you lack integrity.

For the benefit of younger posters, Pippen was dominating the series defensively while chipping in 20 PPG through four games (Chicago led 3-1). At that point he was the front-runner for FMVP. Then he suffered a back injury and that was it for him as an offensive force.

Moreover, one of his best games was when he went 10/4/4. MJ stans don't understand anything other than PPG but here is what the New York Times said about it. Remember, 10/4/4 was the stat line ("15.7 PPG").

This is what was concealed:

Since most MJ fans here evidently didn't watch it here is what those who did said at the time:



http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1

15.7 PPG, doe. :roll:

Now where is the article on what Oscar did in 74' (that was the 13/4/6 year, not 71')?

I don't pose as an authority--I let the facts do the talking for me. Which is why I bring real facts.

Mic Drop

[Roundball_Rock]

Another note for lurkers is notice they always talk about who players had on their teams. They never mention who the opposition had. The reason for this is simple:

*LeBron faced equal or more HOF players on the other side in his finals. 11' probably is the one time he had the edge (3-2).
*Jordan had a lopsided advantage in HOF in the finals and the ECF. This guy won a ring facing 2 HOF players in the last three rounds in 93' (Wilkins in the first).
*Kareem consistently had a disadvantage in HOF in his prime too.

They want people to be naive and assess team results in a vacuum--and then make team results the be all end all but you have to ask yourself why they leave material information out. It is because they know it torches their argument.

Let's use LeBron and MJ as quick case studies (finals):

1991: MJ has 2 HOF versus 3 (Divac a 1x all-star in for overseas play)
1992: 2 versus 1
1993: 2 versus 1
1996: 2 versus 1
1997: 4 versus 2 (Parish was a Bull technically)
1998: 3 versus 2

2007: 1 versus 3
2011: 3 versus 2
2012: 3 versus 3
2013: 4 versus 4
2014: 4 versus 4
2015: 2* versus 3 (de facto 1 versus 3)
2016: 3 versus 3
2017: 3 versus 4
2018: 2 versus 4

Notice a difference? :lol

*Love didn't play at all; Irving 4 quarters.

This is where the shenanigans come in of claiming sidekick Wade>Pippen. The other HOF doesn't matter if he is "mediocre" and worse than every other NBA star to walk the planet.


The 19 Raptors were legit. It's possible they will have had 4 HOFers when it's all said and done.

We have to see what they do in the playoffs but thus far they at least silenced the "Kawhi won all by himself" BS that was going strong in the summer and fall.

Yeah, that is a really good team. People don't care because Kawhi isn't a GOAT caliber player and their ring was a fluke.

[Soundwave]

The 19 Raptors were legit. It's possible they will have had 4 HOFers when it's all said and done. Kawhi is obviously first ballot, and Lowry will very likely make it eventually (not first ballot though, that's for sure). I would imagine Marc Gasol gets in as well, especially considering his international career. Siakam has just recently entered his prime, so while he's probably not going to have a HOF career (they are rare), it's still possible he will. Additionally, they had great role players like Serge Ibaka, Danny Green, Fred VanVleet and Norman Powell who all had huge impacts at various times in the playoffs (maybe not Green, but the others for sure and Green's defense and gravity are still valuable even when he is sucking ass, like he admittedly did in the 19 playoffs). That team was awesome, and had the best defense I've ever seen in the playoffs. Absolute lockdown. There's a reason they've done so well without Kawhi.

Eh they're a good squad, but c'mon. Kyle Lowry is sometimes the dumbest "good player" I've ever seen, he makes really stupid decisions. Siakim is a good player, but like a "great" player nah. Gasol was pretty far past his prime by this stage of his career, he's no where near being a DPOY these days.

Using regular season win/loss as a major metric, especially one season is somewhat meaningless in the bigger picture.

We know for example the Warriors won fewer games with Durant in the regular season ... but no one is dumb enough to seriously argue the Warriors were a worse team with Durant.

The Atlanta Hawks somehow won 57 games (better than Pippen's Bulls) in 93-94, anyone give even half a sh*t about them? Nope. lol. Dominique was even injured for a huge chunk of that season ... so uh ... Stacy Augmon was the best player on the team?

Penny Hardaway led the Magic to 55 wins in games Shaq didn't play in or was gone before completely destroying his knee ... no one cares about that either. In fact, the Magic's winning % actually declined in 95-96 with Shaq in the lineup. Does that mean the Magic were better off without Shaq? Grant Hill led a mediocre Pistons team to 54 wins. Nobody acts like that was anything amazing.

[3ball]

.
Pippen's poor play forced MJ to be the only player ever that routinely beat top 5 SRS teams with less than 20 ppg from a sidekick:



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen


MJ had to carry that bum against GOOD teams... No one else had to do that

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the info for prime Kareem.

HOF players on prime Kareem's teams/opponents (opponents listed second)

1970 WCF: 2 versus 4
1971 WCF: 2 versus 4
1971 Finals: 2 versus 3
1972 WCF: 2 versus 3 (excluded Baylor who didn’t play)
1974 WCF: 2 versus 1
1974 Finals: 2 versus 4
1977 WCF: 1 versus 1
1980 WCF: 4 versus 2 (Haywood technically counts for LA but he was 13 MPG)
1980 Finals: 4 versus 3
Finals totals: 8-10, 7-10 minus Haywood
WCF totals: 13-15, 12-15 minus Haywood
(Haywood was a 13 MPG player in 80’)

So he had a disadvantage until 1980 (KAJ was 33 by the 80' playoffs) and he also had to face real competition on the other side, not teams with John Starks and Terry Porter as their #2.

[3ball]

Here is the info for prime Kareem.

HOF players on prime Kareem's teams/opponents (opponents listed second)

1970 WCF: 2 versus 4
1971 WCF: 2 versus 4
1971 Finals: 2 versus 3
1972 WCF: 2 versus 3 (excluded Baylor who didn’t play)
1974 WCF: 2 versus 1
1974 Finals: 2 versus 4
1977 WCF: 1 versus 1
1980 WCF: 4 versus 2 (Haywood technically counts for LA but he was 13 MPG)
1980 Finals: 4 versus 3
Finals totals: 8-10, 7-10 minus Haywood
WCF totals: 13-15, 12-15 minus Haywood
(Haywood was a 13 MPG player in 80’)
Your HOF data is inaccurate

You left off HOF's Shaq and Ben Wallace for Lebron, but included 36-year Rodman for MJ (4/8 for entire 97' playoffs and bench player in 98')

Then you included Kukoc, who has special circumstances

A better guage is all-star teammates - MJ won 6 rings with 1, while Kareem needed 9... Lebron needed 6 to win 3

[Roundball_Rock]

Your HOF data is inaccurate

You left off HOF's Shaq and Ben Wallace for Lebron, but included 36-year Rodman for MJ (4/8 for entire 97' playoffs and bench player in 98')

Then you included Kukoc, who has special circumstances

:wtf:

More dishonesty from MJ stans.

*Shaq and Ben Wallace were not Cavs in 07'. Wallace joined in 08' (mid-season traded), Shaq was there only for 10'.
*I did not include Kukoc. Do you even know who was on the team? Then again you thought Horace Grant was on all 6 title teams. Kukoc is not in the HOF at this time. If Divac is in, Kukoc should be but I only counted current HOF players for retired players. For LeBron you have to speculate since they are active or recently retired players.
*The Bulls' HOF players were Jordan, Pippen, Rodman. Parish for one year but caveated in my post. Rodman was the Bulls' third best player.
*The opposing HOF were Magic, Worthy, Divac, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Malone, Stockton.

How dumb do they think people are? Just flat out make up stuff and think people won't notice. :lol

[Soundwave]

The fact of the matter is for someone to be a legitimate 1B consideration next to Michael Jordan, that player has to be an easy top 15 player.

It would have to be a Magic, Bird, Kobe, LeBron, Hakeem, Duncan level player.

Barkley is maybe about as far as you can stretch it, after that, any player next to Jordan was going to be considered a "sidekick". That gap there is too large for it to be anything else. And that goes for basically any other top 10 player. Pippen would not be considered the equal of Bird or Shaq or LeBron either. He would be considered their sidekick. With Jordan that gap was always going to be even larger between him and whoever his no.2 guy was.

Not Pippen. Not Drexler. Not Dominique. Not Gasol. Not Worthy. Not GHill. Not even Ewing.

These are very good players, but next to Jordan you are not going to be considered an equal. And there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. You want to cry about it, order some fu*king kleenex.

[97 bulls]

The fact of the matter is for someone to be a legitimate 1B consideration next to Michael Jordan, that player has to be an easy top 15 player.

It would have to be a Magic, Bird, Kobe, LeBron, Hakeem, Duncan level player.

Barkley is maybe about as far as you can stretch it, after that, any player next to Jordan was going to be considered a "sidekick". That gap there is too large for it to be anything else. And that goes for basically any other top 10 player. Pippen would not be considered the equal of Bird or Shaq or LeBron either. He would be considered their sidekick. With Jordan that gap was always going to be even larger between him and whoever his no.2 guy was.

Not Pippen. Not Drexler. Not Dominique. Not Gasol. Not Worthy. Not GHill.

These are very good players, but next to Jordan you are not going to be considered an equal. And there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. You want to cry about it, order some fu*king kleenex.

This is what I think is the problem. Do you think that were saying Pippen was a 1B type in the Bulls pecking order?

[SATAN]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Pippen is as good as Jordan

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Pippen has a right to be mad. Jordan is a big bully and a jerk.

[Soundwave]

This is what I think is the problem. Do you think that were saying Pippen was a 1B type in the Bulls pecking order?

I'm saying you need to chill the f**k out. Any player in NBA history outside of a select group of maybe 10 guys would look like a "sidekick".

For crying out loud Kobe Bryant averaged 29 fu*king ppg in 2001 and people are steadfast in saying he was "just the sidekick" relative to Shaq who most people rate lower than Jordan.

There is no great injustice going on here. The reality is virtually anyone next to Michael Jordan was going to be automatically slotted in as "the second banana" type of role. And there's nothing wrong or unjust with that.

If Scottie is really upset about *that being the case* (which he isn't, but if he was) there are several hundred players who were fantastic in their own right that would kiss their own kiss to have played with Jordan and have tons of rings, guys like Drexler, Dominique, Barkley, Ewing, Hill, etc. etc. I'm sure would all give their left nut to have been given the same opportunity. He's not a victim here whatsoever.

Ain't no one begging at their door to make a documentary on any of them. Quite frankly, Scottie had more attention, press, endorsments given to him than even Hakeem Olajuwon, nobody gives a crap about Dream these days, most younger kids don't really know much about him but they know Pippen. Is that fair?

You need to be a Magic or LeBron or Shaq or someone in that class to be considered anything but a sidekick next to Jordan. Shit even Magic I think would've been slotted in as the no.2 sidekick perception.

[Soundwave]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Pippen is as good as Jordan

Because that's a patently ridiculous arguement. There's only like 10 players in NBA history that would be considered a 1B to Jordan, and even there guys like Magic and LeBron would probably have to accept a bit of a secondary role.

Jordan would be the one getting the ball in game winning situations, he would be the leading scorer on the team.

That's just how it goes.

Scottie Pippen is not Jordan's equal by any stretch of the imagination and that is not disrespectful or a slight. He was a terrific player in his own right who had the good fortune of playing with the greatest player ever, a situation many hundreds of other fantastic players would love to have had.

People would not let Kobe Bryant be considered on the same level as Shaq even with a 29.4 ppg/7 rpg/6 apg average in 2001 and he rode him unmercifully until he was able to win a title on his own. And Shaq is not considered by most people to be as good as Jordan. So exactly how do you think a Pippen is going to be perceived next to a Jordan?

Anyone who's going to sit there and cry now about people perceiving Jordan and Pippen very differently, need to change their damn tampons for starters.

[SATAN]

I'm not sure what your problem is. I didn't see anyone comparing them like that.

[Soundwave]

I'm not sure what your problem is. I didn't see anyone comparing them like that.

It's the general narrative that some posters try so desperately to push that Pippen is some kind of "victim" here and deserves ... what ... I don't even know ... to be thought as 1B to Jordan?

He wasn't that, there's maybe 3 players in the world that maybe would be thought as a 100% equivalent to Jordan on the same team in their prime and that's basically probably Shaq, Wilt, and prime Kareem and even then they would be considered only on his level, not better than him in his prime.

I don't agree with the posters that treat Pippen like some trash tier player, he was a fantastic player and deserves props for that. But no where near the equal of a Jordan at all, not even close. He had the good fortune of playing with the best player ever and profited (in the end) handsomely from it, is well remembered even above better players (anyone banging on Hakeem's door to do a doc on him? F*ck no).

The way Jordan is perceived relative to Pippen is not unsual or strange or some injustice. If Kobe Bryant couldn't get people off his nut sack about being Shaq's side kick until he was freaking 30 years old, that's just how it is in pro sports.

When you shine next to the sun, you're going to be overshadowed. That's just life.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why are you complaining about us crying when you are on a mission that MJ>>Pippen? No one thinks they were equal. All we say is he was the best sidekick of his era and a top 20-30 all-time player. We are consistent with what the consensus is outside of MJ fans.

Even the people who are the most "anti-MJ" have him no worse than 3rd or 4th all-time (which I disagree with since I have MJ 2nd but it is a perfectly legitimate view). No one is saying anything whacky like MJ is 14th all-time or something.

Us "anti-MJ" people are far closer to the consensus on MJ than you guys are on the consensus regarding Pippen.

[Soundwave]

Why are you complaining about us crying when you are on a mission that MJ>>Pippen? No one thinks they were equal. All we say is he was the best sidekick of his era and a top 20-30 all-time player. We are consistent with what the consensus is outside of MJ fans.

Even the people who are the most "anti-MJ" have him no worse than 3rd or 4th all-time (which I disagree with since I have MJ 2nd but it is a perfectly legitimate view). No one is saying anything whacky like MJ is 14th all-time or something.

Us "anti-MJ" people are far closer to the consensus on MJ than you guys are on the consensus regarding Pippen.

What is odd is the people who detract Pippen the most will sing songs about Miller, Payton, Kemp, K. Johnson, etc. all clearly inferior players. Stockton too was inferior peak wise but his longevity was better and he is ranked near Pippen (and Wade) on all-time lists.

If the entire world is your bubble on ISH maybe, and even on ISH Jordan runs away with the GOAT every time there's a vote, which tells you what? You can't even convince people that Jordan wasn't the greatest here even with a non-stop 24/7 campaign. Nobody gives that much of a crap what you say.

Pippen being a 20-30 player is not consensus either, there are a lot of people that will say a Drexler or someone like that is equal to but he's ranked like in the 60s or some sh*t. There's an inflationary effect you get playing for a glamour team like the Bulls.

Quite frankly even if your premise is "Jordan only won because he had a better no.2 option", I don't think the result any of his NBA Finals is anything different even if you level the playing field to exactly identical.

Give Jordan the same exact supporting cast as the best player on the other team in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998 and he wins probably every single time. Magic or Drexler or Barkley or Payton or Malone don't outplay Michael Jordan so all other things being equal they lose.

Also lets give Jordan the same supporting cast as Bird had in 86-88 and now lets see how Larry does against Jordan. And lets give Isiah the same supporting cast as MJ in see how Bad those Bad Boys really are.

Probably in that scenario he wins more, not less overall.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is the consensus GOAT. My point was even the most "anti-MJ" people still have him 3rd or 4th.


Pippen being a 20-30 player is not consensus either

Show me an all-time list that has him outside of that range. I have never seen it and I always look at these lists. This isn't a "new" thing either. In Elliot Kalb's book (back in 2003) Pippen was 26-28 or something. I am in a midst of a move so most of my books are at the other place but he definitely was top 30.

The only change with Pippen is he has moved closer to the front of the top 20-30 pack, versus being 24-28 like he was 10 years ago.

Here are the top 20-30 all-time on recent lists (21st listed first, 30th last):

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

Simmons hasn't updated his list but he did say in an article a month ago that he has Pippen #28 (four players surpassed him since he wrote his book in 2009).


there are a lot of people that will say a Drexler or someone like that is equal

Yes, they are called MJ stans. :lol

Drexler is a player there is not a consensus on (anywhere from 40-60 on these lists). He seems to be sliding back, though, which is unfair. I hope he moves back up. I suspect that he made only 1 all-NBA 1st team is being held against him. If you look at the guys who are consistently ranked ahead of him almost all of them made all-NBA 1st teams multiple times. Miller is the only obvious exception I can think of.

You guys make Drexler 10 feet tall but he has 5 all-NBA teams, only 1 of them a first team. He had two top 5 MVP finishes and was a real MVP candidate only once. His resume isn't as strong as you would think. He had a high peak but it didn't last as long as the SG's ahead of him.

[Soundwave]

Jordan is the consensus GOAT. My point was even the most "anti-MJ" people still have him 3rd or 4th.



Show me an all-time list that has him outside of that range. I have never seen it and I always look at these lists. This isn't a "new" thing either. In Elliot Kalb's book (back in 2003) Pippen was 26-28 or something. I am in a midst of a move so most of my books are at the other place but he definitely was top 30.

The only change with Pippen is he has moved closer to the front of the top 20-30 pack, versus being 24-28 like he was 10 years ago.

Here are the top 20-30 all-time on recent lists (21st listed first, 30th last):

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

Simmons hasn't updated his list but he did say in an article a month ago that he has Pippen #28 (four players surpassed him since he wrote his book in 2009).



Yes, they are called MJ stans. :lol

Drexler is a player there is not a consensus on (anywhere from 40-60 on these lists). He seems to be sliding back, though, which is unfair. I hope he moves back up. I suspect that he made only 1 all-NBA 1st team is being held against him. If you look at the guys who are consistently ranked ahead of him almost all of them made all-NBA 1st teams multiple times. Miller is the only obvious exception I can think of.

You guys make Drexler 10 feet tall but he has 5 all-NBA teams, only 1 of them a first team. He had two top 5 MVP finishes and was a real MVP candidate only once. His resume isn't as strong as you would think. He had a high peak but it didn't last as long as the SG's ahead of him.

Clyde Drexler led the Blazers to two actual (not imaginary or maybe) NBA Finals as the no.1 option of his team, he is uderrated. If he had the good fortune of playing with Jordan he would likely have many rings himself and be thought of in a different light.

You don't need to "stan" anyone to realize that.

Pippen over or equal to Malone is a joke too, Karl Malone again led his team to multiple NBA Finals, beating teams like the Shaq Kobe Lakers and winning an MVP ... I'm sure he would do just fine as a no.2 option for Jordan.

Saying stuff like this is not "slighting Scottie Pippen".

[97 bulls]

Clyde Drexler led the Blazers to two actual (not imaginary or maybe) NBA Finals as the no.1 option of his team, he is uderrated. If he had the good fortune of playing with Jordan he would likely have many rings himself and be thought of in a different light.

You don't need to "stan" anyone to realize that.

Pippen over Malone is a joke too, Karl Malone again led his team to multiple NBA Finals, beating teams like the Shaq Kobe Lakers and winning an MVP ... I'm sure he would do just fine as a no.2 option for Jordan.

Saying stuff like this is not "slighting Scottie Pippen".

I dont know what else you want Rock to do to prove his point. Hes gone back and found over 30 years of footnotes, news clippings, video, interviews, rankings, stats etc that confirm his stance. All your side is doing is denying. Hes even breaking down the few stats that are supposedly against Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

We get it. We hear MJ stans loud and clear: every 90's star>Pippen.

The problem is the rest of the world has moved in while the MJ stan echo chamber keeps telling itself how much Pippen sucks and keeps downgrading him over time. When BruceBlitz had his rant he had Pippen top 40, which would put him on the high end of where Drexler lands these days. Not one MJ fan on ISH would put them even close to each other today.

Drexler made 1 all-NBA 1st team, 5 all-NBA teams total. That is on him. If anything, being "the man" on a team generates more accolades. He had Magic and Jordan there for a while but that doesn't explain Mark Price, Stockton, Sprewell, Penny all making it from 1993-1995. Drexler wasn't even on the 2nd team those years.

You don't get a statue built for "going to the finals as the man" and losing. People don't even talk about the finals Drexler actually won.

[Soundwave]

I dont know what else you want Rock to do to prove his point. Hes gone back and found over 30 years of footnotes, news clippings, video, interviews, rankings, stats etc that confirm his stance. All your side is doing is denying. Hes even breaking down the few stats that are supposedly against Pippen.

ESPN lists Pippen above Barkley, David Robinson, Dwayne Wade ... who here honestly thinks he's better than those players?

If anything the whole whiny "Pippen is underrated" b*tch fest is nonsense. He gets rated very highly, often times above other players that led their teams to NBA Finals and/or won NBA MVPs, and gets a ton of attention because he played on the glamour Bulls moreso than many players who were likely in the same tier as he was.

Anyone who doesn't think that say Jordan and David Robinson for example as a 1-2 combo wouldn't win 6-8 titles is smoking more crack than the 1983 Chicago Bulls. That would be the greatest 1-2 combo in the history of the NBA by a good margin.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So we all agree Scottie is pissed over the truth? :lol

A shame Pippen said he wouldn't change anything. And would've STILL quit.

[Roundball_Rock]

ESPN lists Pippen above Barkley, David Robinson, Dwayne Wade ... who here honestly thinks he's better than those players?


The MJ echo chamber at it again. :lol Here is how those players fall on recent lists outside of Jordanstan:

ESPN: Pippen 21, Barkley 23, Robinson 24, Wade 26
Slam: Barkley 20, Pippen 22, Wade 23, Robinson 29
Backpicks: Robinson 15, Barkley 22, Wade 24, Pippen 25

Simmons did not update his full list but when he said Pippen moved from #24 to #28 since 2009, Wade was not one of the players who moved ahead (Dirk, Durant, Curry, Kawhi). So Pippen is ahead of Wade on 3 of 4 lists; the one list that has Wade ahead has him exactly in front of Pippen.

Deal with it: there is a consensus on Pippen outside of MJ's fan club. :hammertime:

[Soundwave]

The MJ echo chamber at it again. :lol Here is how those players fall on recent lists outside of Jordanstan:

ESPN: Pippen 21, Barkley 23, Robinson 24, Wade 26
Slam: Barkley 20, Pippen 22, Wade 23, Robinson 29
Backpicks: Robinson 15, Barkley 22, Wade 24, Pippen 25

Simmons did not update his full list but when he said Pippen moved from #24 to #28 since 2009 Wade was not one of those players who moved ahead. So Pippen is ahead of Wade on 3 of 4 lists; the one list that has Wade ahead has him exactly in front of Pippen.

Deal with it: there is a consensus on Pippen outside of MJ's fan club. :hammertime:

That's fine if they want that to be a consensus then I'm not losing any sleep over it, I just don't agree with it.

Scottie Pippen on no planet is a better player than Charles Barkley or David Robinson. I think most people would admit that as well if pressed.

He is ranked that highly because he played with Michael Jordan and there is a glamour aspect attached to that.

Doing the dumb MC Hammer gif is so "I'm 14 years old", lol.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

ESPN lists Pippen above Barkley, David Robinson, Dwayne Wade ... who here honestly thinks he's better than those players?

Well Jordan haters have legit mental issues. Aside from them and their little bubble, nobody thinks that.

Nobody equates greater with better either.

Wade/DRob/Chuck had better numbers and signtuate playoff performances. Across the board. Better peak and prime play too. The big difference is none of those players rode Jordan's coattails.

[97 bulls]

So we all agree Scottie is pissed over the truth? :lol

A shame Pippen said he wouldn't change anything. And would've STILL quit.

I dont think that's the issue. I think hes upset that his contributions were left out. His big defensive games were left out. His big shots were left out. Why?

I mean damn. He responded in the documentary to the migraine game, the 1.8 seconds issue, the contract etc. So he obviously knew it was gonna be in there.

I think his issue wasnt with them talking about his low points, but more ommiting his high points. Did they say he was a great player? Yes. But then they go back and in just about every clip Pippen is messing up. Again never showing his greatness.

[Roundball_Rock]

He is ahead of Barkley on only one list.

Robinson appears to be docked for being a playoff choker. You spoke of how important it is to "lead a team to the finals as the man." Robinson had a decade as "the man" and did it exactly 0 times. In fact, the Spurs got past the second round only once before Duncan (and Robinson got crushed by his counterpart). So if "making the finals as the man" is this important metric Robinson is a player who will take a big fall.

You guys go on about the Bulls losing in the second round as a 55 win team but the Spurs got bounced in the first round as a 56 win team that same year. Robinson went from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the playoffs. Ouch.


He is ranked that highly because he played with Michael Jordan and there is a glamour aspect attached to that.

Whatever helps you feel better about it. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Well Jordan haters have legit mental issues. Aside from them and their little bubble, nobody thinks that.

Nobody equates greater with better either.

Wade/DRob/Chuck had better numbers and signtuate playoff performances. Across the board. Better peak and prime play too. The big difference is none of those players rode Jordan's coattails.

Oh please Chuck failed, Drob rode Duncan, and Wade rode the Refs and James coattails.

Are you saying Pippen didnt have any signature Playoff performances? This is crazy. This is what Rock is talking about

Also, please show me a s example of what you consider a "Jordan Hater"?

[Soundwave]

I dont think that's the issue. I think hes upset that his contributions were left out. His big defensive games were left out. His big shots were left out. Why?

I mean damn. He responded in the documentary to the migraine game, the 1.8 seconds issue, the contract etc. So he obviously knew it was gonna be in there.

I think his issue wasnt with them talking about his low points, but more ommiting his high points. Did they say he was a great player? Yes. But then they go back and in just about every clip Pippen is messing up. Again never showing his greatness.

The doc doesn't really obsess over individual stats unless they're something really that noteworthy. Like they didn't mention Jordan nearly matched Magic for assists in the 91 Finals or that he was playing with a foot injury in the '91 Finals and a wrist injury in the '93 playoffs.

There are games that are historic like yes, the migraine game, the 63 vs. Bird's Celtics, Nick Anderson stealing the ball from Jordan, Kukoc-gate in 94, the Pistons walking off the court game in 91, the flu game, Jordan over Ehlo, the Paxson threepeat winner, the last shot.

But this stuff is all well ingrained part of the Bulls history, that was always going to be covered, and quite frankly they made big bruhaha over Pippen playing with a back injury in the 98 game.

Maybe this stuff is news for like a 15 year old that didn't know it, but it's all this pretty well documented otherwise.

[Roundball_Rock]

But this stuff is all part of the Bulls history

It wasn't a Bulls documentary, though, it was a Jordan documentary. The Hue Hollins call is a big part of Bulls history and was never mentioned.


Oh please Chuck failed, Drob rode Duncan, and Wade rode the Refs and James coattails.

Robinson would be the biggest choker of the 90's if Malone and Stockton didn't exist. Great guy but we can't ignore this massive flaw simply because he didn't play with MJ.

They are making too much of the Barkley stuff. How high is Barkley going to go? The tail end of the top 20 is as high as Barkley can realistically go. So if Pippen is in the 21-28 range and Barkley in the 18-24 or so range they are going to wind up near each other on most lists.

If Pippen is 23rd where do they want Barkley to go to practice social distancing? 13th? :lol

Havlicek is basically the 60's/70's Pippen and he often winds up in that same range but I don't see them complaining about Havlicek.

[97 bulls]

The doc doesn't really obsess over individual stats unless they're something really that noteworthy. Like they didn't mention Jordan nearly matched Magic for assists in the 91 Finals or that he was playing with a foot injury in the '91 Finals and a wrist injury in the '93 playoffs.

There are games that are historic like yes, the migraine game, the 63 vs. Bird's Celtics, Nick Anderson stealing the ball from Jordan, Kukoc-gate in 94, the Pistons walking off the court game in 91, the flu game, Jordan over Ehlo, the Paxson threepeat winner, the last shot.

But this stuff is all well ingrained part of the Bulls history, that was always going to be covered, and quite frankly they made big bruhaha over Pippen playing with a back injury in the 98 game.

Maybe this stuff is news for like a 15 year old that didn't know it, but it's all this pretty well documented otherwise.

Who said anything about stats? There were some big games that Pippen put his stamp on that was totally excluded. Did they even acknowledge Rodman rebounding exploits in the 96 Finals? All I remember the documentary going over is Jordan's father day win, and him excusing his below Jordan level of play. I'm gonna have to go back and watch it again

[Roundball_Rock]

Who said anything about stats? There were some big games that Pippen put his stamp on that was totally excluded. Did they even acknowledge Rodman rebounding exploits in the 96 Finals? All I remember the documentary going over is Jordan's father day win, and him excusing his below Jordan level of play. I'm gonna have to go back and watch it again

One of them was Game 5 of the 91' Finals but because they wanted to make it all about MJ they featured Paxson because MJ was graciously passing to a widen open player (great that he figured the concept out in the final game of his 7th season :lol ).

They posted a lot of stats BTW--but only for Jordan...("final score, Jordan had X points" underneath).

[Jay-B]

Why is he mad? The documentary made Pippen look good if you ask me

[aceman]

Documentary is ultimate betrayal - Pippen sacrificed his game to help bulls win. 1994 proves a team could be built around him. Pippen & Harper did dirty work on defense so Jordan could rest for scoring. Now he throws them under the bus to take credit for championships.

[Soundwave]

Who said anything about stats? There were some big games that Pippen put his stamp on that was totally excluded. Did they even acknowledge Rodman rebounding exploits in the 96 Finals? All I remember the documentary going over is Jordan's father day win, and him excusing his below Jordan level of play. I'm gonna have to go back and watch it again

No, but they also don't go into Rodman having quite frankly poor Finals in '97 and '98 either. It doesn't get into him kicking a camera man in '97 (?) or getting into it with the Mormon community in the middle of the NBA Finals either.

Nor do they discuss Kemp having a pretty darn good series either in '96.

98 Finals are framed as Jordan hitting the game winning shot, Pippen playing heroically through back pain, Rodman coming back from wrestling to make a impact but they don't point out Toni Kukoc matched Pippen's scoring in the '98 Finals either.

None of that is a flaw, the doc would be 80 hours long if they broke down every up and down of every series. A documentary needs to still have narrative focus otherwise it'd just a jumbled mess of points going from one to another and quite honestly even this doc with the time they had sometimes got a bit messy alternating sometimes between three time lines in the same episode.

[97 bulls]

No, but they also don't go into Rodman having quite frankly poor Finals in '97 and '98 either. It doesn't get into him kicking a camera man in '97 (?) or getting into it with the Mormon community in the middle of the NBA Finals either.

Nor do they discuss Kemp having a pretty darn good series either in '96.

98 Finals are framed as Jordan hitting the game winning shot, Pippen playing heroically through back pain, Rodman coming back from wrestling to make a impact but they don't point out Toni Kukoc matched Pippen's scoring in the '98 Finals either.

None of that is a flaw, the doc would be 80 hours long if they broke down every up and down of every series. A documentary needs to still have narrative focus otherwise it'd just a jumbled mess of points going from one to another and quite honestly even this doc with the time they had sometimes got a bit messy alternating sometimes between three time lines in the same episode.

Did you actually watch the games? Or did you look at the stats.
https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M
https://youtu.be/NWwI1_8WEco
https://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWds
https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

Rodman did a great job on Malone in the series in 98

[Soundwave]

Did you actually watch the games? Or did you look at the stats.
https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M
https://youtu.be/NWwI1_8WEco
https://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWds
https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

Rodman did a great job on Malone in the series in 98

I watched every game of the 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 Finals. As in when they aired, not 15 years later on Youtube. That work for you?

Rodman's effectiveness was starting to fade as the years went on, this is one of the reasons the two dumb Jerry's got the idea to go for a rebuild to begin with.

Edit: I did miss watching some of that '03 Final. Was not feeling ABC's presentation or the match up.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kukoc and an (eventually) injured Pippen scored 10.4 more PPG than Stockton and Hornacek. Why do we never hear a single word on the great John Stockton choking hard in a finals? None of that was covered but we got 40 minutes on a migraine.



Rodman did a great job on Malone in the series in 98

:applause:

Yeah and Rodman was even better against him in 97'.

[LostCause]

Why didn’t the Jordan doc show us Rodman leading the league in rebounds? I mean literally show us EVERY rebound. We spent 20 minutes seeing Jordan score 60 against the Celtics. So why can’t we watch Dennis grab 2800 rebounds?


:confusedshrug:

[LostCause]

No, but they also don't go into Rodman having quite frankly poor Finals in '97 and '98 either. It doesn't get into him kicking a camera man in '97 (?) or getting into it with the Mormon community in the middle of the NBA Finals either.

The much-revered Sam Smith was even wanting to release Rodman

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-09-9806090284-story.html