Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team without at least 19.8 ppg from sidekick

[3ball]

.
Lebron needs 20 ppg from sidekick to beat a good team, while MJ beat many top 5 SRS teams with horrible stats from sidekick:



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen

[ImKobe]

Lebron would have won 1 ring at best in place of MJ. Imagine the lack of ability to play off-ball/adjust to the triangle, the inability to play with Pippen, the lack of mental strength... I might be too generous by giving him 1.

[Jordan96]

Lebron would have won 1 ring at best in place of MJ. Imagine the lack of ability to play off-ball/adjust to the triangle, the inability to play with Pippen, the lack of mental strength... I might be too generous by giving him 1.

How much does MJ win with Kyrie?

[ImKobe]

How much does MJ win with Kyrie?

A lot. Kyrie is a huge upgrade over Pippen offensively.

[RRR3]

This isn't true. 2015 ECF off the top of my head. OP lying again.

[RRR3]

ImKobe is low-key one of the worst posters of all time.

[3ball]

Lebron would have won 1 ring at best in place of MJ. Imagine the lack of ability to play off-ball/adjust to the triangle, the inability to play with Pippen, the lack of mental strength... I might be too generous by giving him 1.

Lebron could never fit the triangle and would play a different offense,, probably with a different coach

But let's assume the impossible - let's say he plays in the triangle somehow... what's he going to do in the 92' Playoffs when Pippen is peaked out at 21/7/7, thus requiring him to take 26 fga per game at 50% like MJ did? When does lebron have a history of shooting that kind of volume/efficiency combo? When does anyone have a record of efficiency at that volume?

Only Jordan.... and that's why only he could win with the volume requirements of those Bulls, and that's why Backpicks gushes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2020/hyp2rb.gif) when talking about Jordan's efficient, high volume (one-of-a-kind volume) - this ability made him goat (along with the skills to execute the high volume in a championship system)

Jordan's 118 ortg applied to 36% of possession usage is a mark of dominance that will stand a while..

[3ball]

This isn't true. 2015 ECF off the top of my head. OP lying again.

The lone exception?

[RRR3]

The lone exception?
doesn't matter you got caught lying again :lol

[ImKobe]

This isn't true. 2015 ECF off the top of my head. OP lying again.

You're so full of shit. Of course you googled their SRS. Korver was injured so that doesn't count.

[3ball]

doesn't matter you got caught lying again :lol

It has to be intentional to qualify as a lie

And how do JR's stats compare to Pippen's above?

JR... 18 on 67% ts
Pip.. 16 on 48% ts

[RRR3]

LeBron bad. Kobe good
:roll:

[Rico2016]

This is what this man has come to. If you actually do have any friends, kids, wife, job, life, I feel bad for all of them. Now sleep tight in your mj jammies and Chicago Bulls blanket.

[3ball]

This is what this man has come to. If you actually do have any friends, kids, wife, job, life, I feel bad for all of them. Now sleep tight in your mj jammies and Chicago Bulls blanket.

Sounds like lebron's inability to beat a good team without a 20-point scorer got to you... It's a big one for sure, but only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

[999Guy]

You think Jordan won against those teams in the late 90’s cause he played great himself?

He SUCKED for his standard against them. Inefficient and his high level playmaking was over by the late 90’s cause he couldn’t just beat people off the dribble when he felt like it.

The late 90’s SUCKED worse. Horrible era.

[Rico2016]

I apologize in advance to MJ stans.

MJ took 26 fga per game in 1997. Geeze.
He took 26 shots to get 31.1. By comparison, LeBron took 22 shots to get 30 in 2012.

Additionally, in 2018 LBJ took 23 to get 34, while MJ took 26 to get 31.

I think we're done here?

[3ball]

I apologize in advance to MJ stans.

MJ took 26 fga per game in 1997. Geeze.
He took 26 shots to get 31.1. By comparison, LeBron took 22 shots to get 30 in 2012.

Additionally, in 2018 LBJ took 23 to get 34, while MJ took 26 to get 31.

I think we're done here?


Per 100 Possessions Playoffs

2012 Lebron... 38.7 points
1997 Jordan... 41.2 points


And lebron had lower usage, burden (% of points scored), faced higher drtg, and had a near-equal scoring sidekick to take pressure off - and a weak East to inflate stats - so your 2012 case fails... Excellent attempt though and try again... Best counter I've had in a while and a good way to analyze these series across eras

Regarding 2018... He didn't win.. case closed... It's about what mj needed to WIN... and padded stats against a weak East certainly doesn't count (record time of possession, aka 30% higher than regular season Harden)

[Uncle Drew]

You're so full of shit. Of course you googled their SRS. Korver was injured so that doesn't count.

:oldlol: you are such a clown.

[Rico2016]

Per 100 Possessions Playoffs

2012 Lebron... 38.7 points
1997 Jordan... 41.2 points


And lebron had lower usage, burden (% of points scored), faced higher drtg, and had a near-equal scoring sidekick to take pressure off - and a weak East to inflate stats - so your 2012 case fails... Excellent attempt though and try again... Best counter I've had in a while and a good way to analyze these series across eras

Regarding 2018... He didn't win.. case closed... It's about what mj needed to WIN... and padded stats against a weak East certainly doesn't count (record time of possession, aka 30% higher than regular season Harden)

I apologize in advance to MJ stans.

MJ took 26 fga per game in 1997. Geeze.
He took 26 shots to get 31.1. By comparison, LeBron took 22 shots to get 30 in 2012.

Additionally, in 2018 LBJ took 23 to get 34, while MJ took 26 to get 31.

I think we're done here?

[Axe]

You think Jordan won against those teams in the late 90’s cause he played great himself?

He SUCKED for his standard against them. Inefficient and his high level playmaking was over by the late 90’s cause he couldn’t just beat people off the dribble when he felt like it.

The late 90’s SUCKED worse. Horrible era.
Whose dup do you actually belong to again?

[3ball]

MJ took 26 shots to get 31.1. By comparison, LeBron took 22 shots to get lower scoring, burden, and usage in 2012.

Additionally, in 2018 LBJ lost by more than anyone ever has

Ultimately, lebron has never shot well at high volume, so he can't win the way MJ did, and lebron's way is 3/9

I think we're done here?

Fixed

It's always going to be close when you cherry-pick mj's worst to lebron's best, and yet lebron still scored less with less burden and usage in 2012..

[Jordan96]

Fixed

It's always going to be close when you cherry-pick mj's worst to lebron's best, and yet lebron still scored less with less burden and usage in 2012..


Who was better Jordan in the 1998 Finals or LeBron in the 2017 Finals?

[Axe]

Who was better Jordan in the 1998 Finals or LeBron in the 2017 Finals?
Bran almost averaged 34 ppg in '17 if I'm not mistaken.

[3ball]

Who was better Jordan in the 1998 Finals or LeBron in the 2017 Finals?
1998 Finals..... 82 pace... 105 drtg... 15 ppg sidekick (all attention on mj)
2017 Finals... 100 pace... 115 drtg... 29 ppg sidekick (half attention on kyrie)

So jordan''s 34 > lebron's..


Ultimately, MJ drew double-teams, which hurt the Jazz defensive rebounding (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m11s) and made them work harder on the glass and rotations

Otoh, lebron's inability to attract doubles, his lack of quick-jumper attack, and his long-dribbling don't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively..

It looks like lebron's teams are playing bad defense for the 1st time all playoffs, but it's really bron-ball losing the attrition battle, aka the best defense is a good offense

[SpaceJam]

Has Jordan ever beat a top 5 SRS team without at least a All D 2nd Team sidekick?

[Roundball_Rock]

What were their team's SRS' without them? Basketball is a team sport, as even the OP hints at.

The Bulls' SRS in 94' was 11th best and 5th when Pippen, Grant were healthy (Bulls actually improved in SRS the next year after Grant left, were tied for 6th with Phoenix and were 2nd in the East behind Orlando before MJ returned).

The Heats' SRS in 15' was 21st and 23rd before Bosh went out for the season in mid-February.

[Wally450]

No Pip, no chip.

[Roundball_Rock]

No Pip, no chip.

Look at how bad their offense became without Pip (bigger falloff than when MJ retired) there to "direct the offense" as Phil Jackson put it:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

[RRR3]

:oldlol: you are such a clown.
The forum clown, you might say.

[Vino24]

Look at how bad their offense became without Pip (bigger falloff than when MJ retired) there to "direct the offense" as Phil Jackson put it:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

Good post! Bulls without Pippen basically turned into MJ wizards

[Turbo Slayer]

OP needs to suck a lollipop. STFU. If you think LeBron is not a threat then why you keep making boring ass threads?

[3ball]

OP needs to suck a lollipop. STFU. If you think LeBron is not a threat then why you keep making boring ass threads?

It's because MJ fans have been ambushed by a fake debate

all the other debates are viewed as legitimate debates by both sides, thereby proving the debate's legitimacy

but MJ fans don't view it as a legit debate so they trash lebron (by pointing out his inferiority.. aka choking, non-elite jumper from all distances, short-cut mindset aka team-hopping, ball-dominant and low-assisted skillset, not elite on post, etc, etc, etc, etc

And why is there a fake debate?.. it's because Lebron is the first player to have his marketing company push fake narratives through various media shills

Clutch Sports succeeded in brainwashing enough people that winning doesn't matter... They also helped people overlook that lebron's ECF win streak didn't start until he formed a super-team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning (09' Dwight, 07' Lebron, 01' Iverson, 02-03' Kidd).. his "decision" built a fake resume based on manufactured Finals runs and then claiming "making the Finals is still great" after blowing the title

These misperceptions have allowed the media to shove a fake goat debate down our throats

[Proctor]

OP needs to suck a lollipop. STFU. If you think LeBron is not a threat then why you keep making boring ass threads?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EnchantedGraciousAffenpinscher-max-1mb.gif

[RogueBorg]

Has Jordan ever beat a top 5 SRS team without at least a All D 2nd Team sidekick?

Everytime I see you post with LeBron snickering off to the side it makes me laugh.

[3ball]

Has Jordan ever beat a top 5 SRS team without at least a All D 2nd Team sidekick?
He beat the #1 SRS in 1989 with zero all-stars or all-defenders, while Pippen averaged 15 on 40%.. bulls had the #11 defense

Otoh, 09' lebron lost to the #4 SRS with better help on both sides of the ball (#3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo)

[ThatCoolKid]

The league is different nowadays. More offensive firepower. You don't beat the GSW with you second option putting up 90s poverty efficiency numbers. I think basketball has changed for the better. More exciting. With Lebron being the face of this superior NBA - you understand why guys like 3ball feels so paranoid. Lebron is coming for the throne and the are powerless to stop it.

[Roundball_Rock]

The league is different nowadays. More offensive firepower. You don't beat the GSW with you second option putting up 90s poverty efficiency numbers.

You have guys like Curry, Westbrook, George, Davis, Chris Paul as second options in today's era. Back then you could be a perennial contender with Rik Smits, Terry Porter, John Starks as your #2. No way that would fly today.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, KJ, Penny, Pippen (who you dikkride) were also 'second' options.

Posting contrived crap is for trolls. Oh wait, never mind. You are one :oldlol:

[3ball]

You have guys like Curry, Westbrook, George, Davis, Chris Paul as second options in today's era. Back then you could be a perennial contender with Rik Smits, Terry Porter, John Starks as your #2. No way that would fly today.

Bucks are the #1 team with Middleton because Giannis dominates closer to mj's level, who was a contender from 88-90' with a similar sidekick

Btw, juggernauts like Stockton, Kemp or Tim Hardaway or Penny were similar to today's sidekicks

You literally ignore large parts of history when making your points, which makes them erroneous

[ThatCoolKid]

Regardless of names (and those names really do pale in comparison to the 2nd options of the modern NBA) - those players all played low-efficiency 90s basketball before the nerds took out their calculators and solved the game. Put Lebron in the 90s and he'll do fine with one of those low efficiency sidekicks.

[3ball]

I apologize in advance to MJ stans.

MJ took 26 fga per game in 1997. Geeze.
He took 26 shots to get 31.1. By comparison, LeBron took 22 shots to get 30 in 2012.

Additionally, in 2018 LBJ took 23 to get 34, while MJ took 26 to get 31.

I think we're done here?

Regarding 2012 - it's easier to be efficient when a teammate (Wade) is taking nearly as many shots and sharing the load.. when he didn't have that (2015), he was forced to take MJ volume, where his efficiency plummetted.

Regarding 2018 - his fga and usage weren't high enough to win - he needed jordan's 93' usage to win, but he wasn't willing to undertake such a big load - lebron lost 4th quarter leads in Games 1 and 3, so just a tad higher usage (using 1 or 2 more possessions) would've won those games... But lebron was already spent and operating at max capacity - he isn't capable of peak MJ volume, let alone efficiently.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bucks are the #1 team with Middleton

Exactly. Middleton is the worst #2 on a contender. Middleton>>>>>>>>>>>Starks, Middleton>Porter, Middleton>Smits.


juggernauts like Stockton, Kemp or Tim Hardaway or Penny were similar to today's sidekicks

Penny was a sidekick on a contender for 2 seasons (then the #1 on Orlando after Shaq when they went 45-37). He came and went fast (unfortunately).

Stockton was a HOF sidekick--it is no coincidence Utah was the second most successful team of the era in terms of wins and consistency. Stockton was an exception to the rule.

Kemp was a good sidekick if you wanted to lose in the first round often (15 PPG on 37% from a PF won't cut it, even with a 63 win team facing a 42 win 8 seed). :lol

You cherry picked the best non-Chicago sidekicks. Even that comparison doesn't work well. Let's do the same for today versus then. These are not in a particular order.

90's top sidekicks: Pippen, Stockton, Kemp, T. Hardaway, Penny (briefly), Daughtery, K. Johnson, L. Johnson*
10'-20' top sidekicks: Westbrook, Davis, George, Curry, Paul, Wade, Thompson, Parker, Kawhi, P. Gasol, Simmons, Irving

These lists speak for themselves. Look at third options today.

10'-20' third options: Bosh, Harden, Manu, Thompson, Love, L. Williams, Green.

Third options in this era often are HOF players. I won't even bother posting third options for the 90's.

*On a non-contender

[ThatCoolKid]

Playing against modern defenses takes much more skill and effort. So the usage rates don't translate across eras. Lebron has always taken worse teammates and gone farther than Jordan would have against superior competition. 2018 Lebron's usage was actually much more impressive - given the context. Try to look at the bigger picture 3ball.

[3ball]

Playing against modern defenses takes much more skill and effort. So the usage rates don't translate across eras. Lebron has always taken worse teammates and gone farther than Jordan would have against superior competition. 2018 Lebron's usage was actually much more impressive - given the context. Try to look at the bigger picture 3ball.

You're praising lebron for a conference that weak teams were routinely winning - i.e. 09' Magic, 07' Cavs, 03' Nets, and 01' Sixers were all weak casts that were "carried", whereas you needed a juggernaut and multiple HOF's to win the 80's East... Yet you're knocking MJ for not doing as well, and praising lebron for doing what AI and Dwight did in the same conference.

Furthermore, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - that's a better cast than any of MJ's 80's casts.. then lebron added a 22/5/5 all-defender in 06' - jordan didn't have anyone capable of that until 92'.

Ultimately, only MJ took a low seed to the cusp of the Finals (89'), while lebron always had high seeds in a weak conference and was upset by lower seeds

[Jordan96]

He beat the #1 SRS in 1989 with zero all-stars or all-defenders, while Pippen averaged 15 on 40%.. bulls had the #11 defense

Otoh, 09' lebron lost to the #4 SRS with better help on both sides of the ball (#3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo)

Didn’t LeBron beat a 73 win team with 0 all stars and 0 all nba defenders?

Isn’t that better than any of MJs accomplishments?

[Roundball_Rock]

Didn’t LeBron beat a 73 win team with 0 all stars and 0 all nba defenders?

Isn’t that better than any of MJs accomplishments?

Yeah, if we want to play the game 3ball just did it sure is. No all-NBA, no all-stars, against an all-time great team in the finals.

The team he is referring to is the Cavs, who lost in the first round. That group made the ECF once during their run. Their win totals were up and down since their stars were injury prone. For instance, when their #1 Mark Price missed almost all of a season this "great" team went to the lottery (33-49 and even worse when Price didn't play). They weren't the juggernaut he is making them seem to be.

[3ball]

Didn’t LeBron beat a 73 win team with 0 all stars and 0 all nba defenders?

Isn’t that better than any of MJs accomplishments?

Love and Kyrie were perennial all-stars (27 in Finals), while Pippen was a 2nd year player (9 in ECF)

Lebron never won without 2 perennial all-stars, while MJ only needed 1 to win twice as muc

So jordan blows lebron away and thats why its a fake debate

Heck, Lebron doesn't take contested (defers contested shots to teammates).. he doesn't comnand doubles.. and he can't average 10+ assists without playing the point guard role (only MJ averaged 10+ assists without playing the PG role).. there's a million ways to say lebron is inferior - skills, winning, accolades, mentality, teammate maximization

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan played with plenty of all-stars: Oakley, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Rodman, Hamilton, Stackhouse, Cartwright (not counting Parish, Gervin, Gilmore). His entire starting 5 on the 93' Bulls was an all-star at some point. Woolridge was never an all-star but he was a 25 PPG SF at his peak.

It seems odd that only one of these players made an all-star team with MJ. Grant, Armstrong became all-stars immediately after MJ retired. Stackhouse was an all-star in 00' and 01' but not with MJ (he was 28 when he played with MJ).

[Jordan96]

Love and Kyrie were perennial all-stars (27 in Finals), while Pippen was a 2nd year player (9 in ECF)

Lebron never won without 2 perennial all-stars, while MJ only needed 1 to win twice as muc

So jordan blows lebron away and thats why its a fake debate

Heck, Lebron doesn't take contested (defers contested shots to teammates).. he doesn't comnand doubles.. and he can't average 10+ assists without playing the point guard role (only MJ averaged 10+ assists without playing the PG role).. there's a million ways to say lebron is inferior - skills, winning, accolades, mentality, teammate maximization

Can you prove that Love and Irving were all stars in 2016?

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan "makes his teammates better" but only one of them can make an all-star team with him? As soon as he retires 3 of the four remaining starters make the all-star team?

[AirBonner]

Can you prove that Love and Irving were all stars in 2016?

Boom

[3ball]

.

Jordan played with plenty of all-stars: Oakley, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Rodman, Hamilton, Stackhouse, Cartwright (not counting Parish, Gervin, Gilmore). His entire starting 5 on the 93' Bulls was an all-star at some point. Woolridge was never an all-star but he was a 25 PPG SF at his peak.

It seems odd that only one of these players made an all-star team with MJ. Grant, Armstrong became all-stars immediately after MJ retired. Stackhouse was an all-star in 00' and 01' but not with MJ (he was 28 when he played with MJ).


So we're counting every all-star regardless of whether it was before/after jordan and out of prime?

Okay, let's do it



Jordan

Gervin (10 all-star games)
Parish (9)
Gilmore (6)
Cartwright (1)
Pippen (9)
Grant (1)
BJ (1)
Oakley (1)
Rodman (2)
Hamilton (3)
Stackhouse (2)
_______________
Total... 11 players.. 45 appearances... 4.3 appearances per player


Lebron

Shaq (15)
Ben Wallace (4)
Carlos Boozer (2)
Mo Williams (1)
Antawn Jamison (2)
Dwayne Wade (13)
Chris Bosh (11)
Kevin Love (5)
Kyrie Irving (6)
Ray Allen (10)
Rajon Rondo (4)
Brandon Ingram (1)
Isaiah Thomas (2)
Derrick Rose (4)
Anthony Davis (7)
___________________
Total... 15 players.. 87 appearances... 5.8 appearances per player



So Lebron played with far more good players

Now if we just look at guys that were all-star-caliber alongside them, then MJ had 1 perennial all-star and 3 fringe all-stars (grant, bj, rodman).. lebron had 4 perennial all-stars and 3 fringe all-stars (Mo, Jamison, Zydrunas, maybe Allen too)... So lebron played with more good players however you slice it

[3ball]

.



So we're counting every all-star regardless of whether it was before/after jordan and out of prime?

Okay, let's do it



Jordan

Gervin (10 all-star games)
Parish (9)
Gilmore (6)
Cartwright (1)
Pippen (9)
Grant (1)
BJ (1)
Oakley (1)
Rodman (2)
Hamilton (3)
Stackhouse (2)
_______________
Total... 11 players.. 45 appearances... 4.3 appearances per player


Lebron

Shaq (15)
Ben Wallace (4)
Carlos Boozer (2)
Mo Williams (1)
Antawn Jamison (2)
Dwayne Wade (13)
Chris Bosh (11)
Kevin Love (5)
Kyrie Irving (6)
Ray Allen (10)
Rajon Rondo (4)
Brandon Ingram (1)
Isaiah Thomas (2)
Derrick Rose (4)
Anthony Davis (7)
___________________
Total... 15 players.. 87 appearances... 5.8 appearances per player



So Lebron played with far more good players

Now if we just look at guys that were all-star-caliber alongside them, then MJ had 1 perennial all-star and 3 fringe all-stars (grant, bj, rodman).. lebron had 4 perennial all-stars and 3 fringe all-stars (Mo, Jamison, Zydrunas, maybe Allen too)... So lebron played with more good players however you slice it

Wow Roundball.. you ran, after initiating the all-star discussion.. another win for MJ family

And don't forget - Lebron's usage deficit meant that MJ used about 3 more possessions per game, at higher efficiency per possession (118 to 116 ortg)

Wouldn't lebron win a lot more close games if he was using an extra 3 possessions a game at better efficiency?.. many games are decided by 1 possession and MJ was using 3 more possessions at higher efficiency

That's why mj is goat - he used more possessions at better efficiency than any wing ever.. and btw, there's many spots where MJ's usage was 10 points higher, which would mean he used about 20 more possessions

[ELITEpower23]

Was MJ ever capable of doing what 2018 LeBron did to Toronto? I will wait patiently.

2018 Toronto = 7+ SRS (57th) all time
2018 LeBron = 34-11-8-2-1 with 30.7 GmScore

[SpaceJam]

He beat the #1 SRS in 1989 with zero all-stars or all-defenders, while Pippen averaged 15 on 40%.. bulls had the #11 defense

Otoh, 09' lebron lost to the #4 SRS with better help on both sides of the ball (#3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo)

So the lone exception?


Everytime I see you post with LeBron snickering off to the side it makes me laugh.

Bro :cheers:

[FKAri]

LeGOAT also played GOAT defense on the best player across him. Often pitching shut outs. Meanwhile Michelle hid under a table while Scottie handled his manly responsibilities (on and off the court). In the rare event Mickey checked an opponent he became a fuccing turnstile who couldn't even keep John Rogers in front of him.

[3ball]

LeGOAT also played GOAT defense on the best player across him. Often pitching shut outs. Meanwhile Michelle hid under a table while Scottie handled his manly responsibilities (on and off the court). In the rare event Mickey checked an opponent he became a fuccing turnstile who couldn't even keep John Rogers in front of him.

Lebron gave up 4 fmvp's and only lebron let his man average 3 points or more above his regular season average in the 14', 15', 17' and 18' Finals - so only he played bad defense... (+6 above normal average for Kawhi... +8 for Iggy... +11 and +5 for KD)

And Pippen was never the primary defender on Isiah, Magic, Drexler, Miller, or Payton

So MJ carried the defensive load - his 92' Finals is the greatest 2-way carry job ever (16 more than Pippen abd held Drexler to 40%)