If Malone had a teammate like Drexler

[Vino24]

Would he have faired better vs the Bulls? Malone definitely carried and raised those jazz teams to being better then their actual record. Stockton and Hornacek were good roll players but they still had major talent deficit vs the bulls

[Roundball_Rock]

Well, Malone himself underachieved, especially in the 97' finals but no excuse for Stockton and Hornacek combining for only 20 PPG in the 98' finals. Stockton had a good game 1 in 98' but here is what he did for the series:

24/2/8 75%
9/3/7 80%
2/2/7 25% (Bulls take a 2-1 lead)
7/1/13 27% (Bulls take a 3-1 lead)
6/4/12 43% (elimination game)
10/3/5 40% (elimination game)
Averages: 9.7/2.5/8.7 on 49% (7/3/9 on 41% outside of Game 1)

Stockton went from an eFG% of 56.7% in the 98' regular season (12.0 PPG) to 52.1% in the playoffs and 51.0% in the finals. If this isn't choking what is?

Hornacek was even worse since he didn't supply assists.

Utah went from averaging 101 points a game in the season and 104 in the WCF to a pathetic 80 in the NBA finals with Stockton at the controls of the offense. It is amazing he gets a pass for this. This may be the worst performance in a finals for a top 30 all-time great. He was old but Malone & Stockton's calling card is longevity and his performance level was baked into the baseline for 98'--so it can't explain the finals collapse.

Drexler was a much better finals performer than Stockton and on another tier than Hornacek. In theory, they win with Drexler replacing either but the caveat is it is hard to gauge the value of chemistry. Malone & Stockton had developed a lot of it over many years together. You have to assume Drexler alone (18/5/6 in 98') would provide about what Stockton/Hornacek did combined, though.

[tpols]

stockton > clyde

[Vino24]

stockton > clyde

Lol

[tpols]

Lol

barkley and a lot of other pros acknowledge a big part of the reason karl malone was superstar was john stockton GOAT passer, all time assists and steals leader.

his impact on teammates was much > clyde's.

[Vino24]

His passing was negated even more by his subpar scoring. At the end of t he day they couldn’t put up points which Clyde was excellent at doing

[j3lademaster]

Well, Malone himself underachieved, especially in the 97' finals but no excuse for Stockton and Hornacek combining for only 20 PPG in the 98' finals. Stockton had a good game 1 in 98' but here is what he did for the series:

24/2/8 75%
9/3/7 80%
2/2/7 25% (Bulls take a 2-1 lead)
7/1/13 27% (Bulls take a 3-1 lead)
6/4/12 43% (elimination game)
10/3/5 40% (elimination game)
Averages: 9.7/2.5/8.7 on 49% (7/3/9 on 41% outside of Game 1)

Stockton went from an eFG% of 56.7% in the 98' regular season (12.0 PPG) to 52.1% in the playoffs and 51.0% in the finals. If this isn't choking what is?

Hornacek was even worse since he didn't supply assists.

Utah went from averaging 101 points a game in the season and 104 in the WCF to a pathetic 80 in the NBA finals with Stockton at the controls of the offense. It is amazing he gets a pass for this. This may be the worst performance in a finals for a top 30 all-time great. He was old but Malone & Stockton's calling card is longevity and his performance level was baked into the baseline for 98'--so it can't explain the finals collapse.

Drexler was a much better finals performer than Stockton and on another tier than Hornacek. In theory, they win with Drexler replacing either but the caveat is it is hard to gauge the value of chemistry. Malone & Stockton had developed a lot of it over many years together. You have to assume Drexler alone (18/5/6 in 98') would provide about what Stockton/Hornacek did combined, though.how much do you attribute that to the bulls defense? He averaged 11/8 as a 40 year old and lead Utah to almost 50 wins his final season. And this was 03, the toughest defensive era.

[Turbo Slayer]

His passing was negated even more by his subpar scoring. At the end of t he day they couldn’t put up points which Clyde was excellent at doing Yep. A player needs to have strong scoring ability and the instinct to pass to the open man. As a result his Box Creation numbers are lower than Magic and Nash for ex.

[tpols]

not true. The Jazz had # 1 offense in the league, and # 1 team assist rank. It was their defensive rank that sucked, offense was impeccable.

the Jazz BEAT clyde in the playoffs that year and drexler shot 30% from the field :roll:

Just to get to Jordan and Pippen, Utah had to go through hakeem, clyde, barkley, shaq, kobe, duncan, and david robinson.

:biggums:

if they won, they oughta have gotten 2 titles.

[Turbo Slayer]

Hmmm. Thats how those 2015-18 Cavs were. Awesome on offense and lacking on defense. Then why you dont apply that to LeBron, id!ot?

[j3lademaster]

not true. The Jazz had # 1 offense in the league, and # 1 team assist rank. It was their defensive rank that sucked, offense was impeccable.

the Jazz BEAT clyde in the playoffs that year and drexler shot 30% from the field :roll:

Just to get to Jordan and Pippen, Utah had to go through hakeem, clyde, barkley, shaq, kobe, duncan, and david robinson.

:biggums:

if they won, they oughta have gotten 2 titles.kobe hasn’t arrived at that point. But no for sure that was one he’ll of a gauntlet.

[Roundball_Rock]

how much do you attribute that to the bulls defense? He averaged 11/8 as a 40 year old and lead Utah to almost 50 wins his final season. And this was 03, the toughest defensive era.

A lot. Pippen dominated that playoffs in a way I have not seen a perimeter player do defensively, including in the finals. Rodman did a good job on Malone, just not as good as he did in 97'. Then Harper did a good job on Stockton.

I just think we have to be consistent. Other legends get flyspecked while all these guys get issued free passes. A lot of it is the "lost to Jordan" excuse. Jordan isn't why Stockton struggled and Jordan doesn't explain Malone/Stockton losing in the WC 16 times.


His passing was negated even more by his subpar scoring. At the end of t he day they couldn’t put up points which Clyde was excellent at doing

Agreed. Drexler averaged only a couple less assists but Drexler would have been able to provide about double the scoring punch. That particularly is important of Hornacek was only going to score 10.7 PPG. You can't win with 20 PPG from your 2nd and 3rd options.


kobe hasn’t arrived at that point. But no for sure that was one he’ll of a gauntlet.

Yup, Kobe was 10/2/1 on 37% against Utah.

[3ball]

Here's video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0) of Jordan guarding Stockton for numerous stretches in 97-98' Finals

Where's Pippen's video?.. Pippen didn't guard Stockton...

So Jordan is a big reason why Stockton struggled - MJ guarded Stockton a lot, while also wearing down Stockton by making him work defensively

Furthermore, the constant double-teaming of Jordan hurt the opponent's rebounding, according to coaches (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m11s).. this is a big reason why PF's excelled alongside Jordan, while they don't with lebron - lebron's inability to command doubles doesn't hurt the opponent's rebounding, which forces his bigs to work harder on the glass

Btw, Pippen didn't guard Stockton, and he also didn't guard Or Malone.. or Drexler... Or Payton.. or Kemp - Pippen was literally NEVER the primary defender on the opponent's best player in the Finals.. it's all false narrative and lies, wheraas mj was primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Isiah and Miller.

[j3lademaster]

Here's video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0) of Jordan guarding Stockton for numerous stretches in 97-98' Finals

Where's Pippen's video?.. Pippen didn't guard Stockton...

So Jordan is a big reason why Stockton struggled - MJ guarded Stockton a lot, while also wearing down Stockton by making him work defensively

Furthermore, the constant double-teaming of Jordan hurt the opponent's rebounding, according to coaches (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m11s).. this is a big reason why PF's excelled alongside Jordan, while they don't with lebron - lebron's inability to command doubles doesn't hurt the opponent's rebounding, which forces his bigs to work harder on the glass

Btw, Pippen didn't guard Stockton, and he also didn't guard Or Malone.. or Drexler... Or Payton.. or Kemp - Pippen was literally NEVER the primary defender on the opponent's best player in the Finals.. it's all false narrative and lies, wheraas mj was primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Isiah and Miller.
Wasn’t Pippen switching onto Magic and Barkley during the respective series’ the turning point for each series? 2nd 3peat Scottie was overrated, but up til 94 or 95 he was a legit superstar.

[Roundball_Rock]

Harper primarily guarded Stockton, Rodman Malone. Jordan was on Hornacek. Pippen was playing a linebacker/free safety role. Here is how the New York Times described Pippen's role at the time--not revisionism--at the time :D :


At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll

Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

Pippen showed up; Stockton didn't. I also don't see MJ in the headline.


Wasn’t Pippen switching onto Magic and Barkley during the respective series’ the turning point for each series?

91' yes. 93' Bulls were always in control. Led 3-1 at one point.


2nd 3peat Scottie was overrated, but up til 94 or 95 he was a legit superstar.

96' arguably was his best season (top 5 in MVP as a sidekick, something that is rare, and all-NBA 1st team with the most F votes--yes more than Malone). 94'-96' was his peak, he fell off slightly in 97' and then more still in 98'.

People make too much of his FG %, which dipped because he started taking threes which he didn't do in the first threepeat and because he had nagging injuries in the 96', 97', 98' playoffs and was healthier when he was younger (he had 3 separate injuries in the 96' playoffs). His advanced metrics in the second threepeat>the first threepeat.

What was Stockton doing in those respective finals? That is the help to compare him to--the second best sidekick of the same era and the one he faced in 2 finals.

[3ball]

Wasn’t Pippen switching onto Magic and Barkley during the respective series’ the turning point for each series? 2nd 3peat Scottie was overrated, but up til 94 or 95 he was a legit superstar.

Magic is normally guarded by forwards

MJ did Pippen a big favor by guarding Magic most of the time (14 of 20 quarters), while Pippen got away with spot duty (6 of 20 quarters)

So Pippen's defense gave the Bulls a boost in Games 2 and 3 (guarded Magic for 5 of 8 quarters), but what about Games 1, 3, and 5 when Pippen guarded Magic a total of 4 minutes??

The entire Pippen defense narrative is overblown because everyone knows you can't praise him for offense - he never made a big shot and was last in clutch-time points for 97' and 98' Playoffs/Finals.. the lowest-scorer of meaningful points EVER for a "star"

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They'd have been great. The Stockton/Malone duo was a problem. A premium scorer like Glide would've made Utah unguardable though.

Clyde Drexler - 41pts, Gm 4 vs. Jazz (1995 Playoffs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mt_8svE7X4

Absolutely no way Hakeem repeats without Drexler. His series against Phoenix is underrated too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's strength was team/help defense. He was a great on the ball defender too but his defensive legacy revolves around team/help defense. Which they aren't telling you of course.


MJ did Pippen a big favor by guarding Magic most of the time

This is revisionism. Jordan was the primary defender on Magic--he wasn't doing a favor, he was doing his job; Pippen took over in Game 2 with Jordan in foul trouble and shut Magic down. Phil Jackson credited Pippen with "changing the fortunes" of the series with that performance, Horace Grant said Pippen should have been FMVP.


what about Games 1, 3, and 5 when Pippen guarded Magic a total of 4 minutes??

Here is what Magic did in the 91' finals:

19/10/11 80%
14/7/10 31%
22/6/10 47%
22/6/11 46%
16/11/20 33%

He was dropping triple doubles on MJ. :oldlol:

[iamgine]

Well of course Drexler was better than Stockton but I think it would be Drexler carrying Malone and not the opposite. With peak Drexler they might be able to win in '98.

[ThatCoolKid]

Jordan might not have any rings at all tbh. Drexler takes his spot in Space Jam. I wanna glide like clyde becomes the motto of the 90s.

[LostCause]

Drexler gets really underrated, so do those Blazers teams he led

Remember they nearly made 3 straight Finals were it not for the Lakers upsetting them in 91

[Stanley Kobrick]

Drexler gets really underrated, so do those Blazers teams he led

Remember they nearly made 3 straight Finals were it not for the Lakers upsetting them in 91
they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh

[Manny98]

they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh

:lol

[LostCause]

they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh

This is about Drexler and the Blazers. Not Jordan

No need to be so insecure lol

[LAmbruh]

they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh

you know the drill :lol

[LostCause]

Imagine being so insecure you get defensive over someone praising a team that nearly made 3 straight Finals, just because they played Jordan in 1 of them

You trolls are something else :oldlol:

[AirBonner]

Good thread! Drexler for sure would have evened the chances they had against the bulls since Drexler >> Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh

:roll:

The funniest thing is they will hype Drexler, Payton, Kemp, Miller, and so on and then elsewhere say Pippen sucks--even though Pippen was a more decorated player in the same era (talking strictly individual achievements) and higher on every all-time list. You can't have it both ways. :lol

[AirBonner]

:roll:

The funniest thing is they will hype Drexler, Payton, Kemp, Miller, and so on and then elsewhere say Pippen sucks--even though Pippen was a more decorated player in the same era (talking strictly individual achievements) and higher on every all-time list. You can't have it both ways. :lol

They are between a rock and a hard place :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

They are between a rock and a hard place :lol

:lol

[LostCause]

These dudes are talking to themselves shook because someone said the Blazers almost made 3 straight Finals (Which is factual)

Everythings about Jordan to these obsessed morons :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

not true. The Jazz had # 1 offense in the league, and # 1 team assist rank. It was their defensive rank that sucked, offense was impeccable.

the Jazz BEAT clyde in the playoffs that year and drexler shot 30% from the field :roll:

Just to get to Jordan and Pippen, Utah had to go through hakeem, clyde, barkley, shaq, kobe, duncan, and david robinson.

:biggums:

if they won, they oughta have gotten 2 titles.

Hakeem, Clyde, and Barkley were washed as hell at that point. Kobe in 98 wasn't noteworthy at all. Duncan was good, but a rookie. Shaq was amazing during that time for sure, of course the Jazz couldn't stop him at all. Robinson was still good too...but please stop just throwing names out there. You are purposefully being disingenuous.

[scuzzy]

they're rated just fine, no need to embellish every single team that played against jordan. king of an annoying pattern tbh
:lol:applause:

[PeroAntic]

Malone is a bum without Stockton.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Jeff Hornacek was a lot like Klay Thompson but with better ball handling and decision making.

[RRR3]

Pippen's strength was team/help defense. He was a great on the ball defender too but his defensive legacy revolves around team/help defense. Which they aren't telling you of course.



This is revisionism. Jordan was the primary defender on Magic--he wasn't doing a favor, he was doing his job; Pippen took over in Game 2 with Jordan in foul trouble and shut Magic down. Phil Jackson credited Pippen with "changing the fortunes" of the series with that performance, Horace Grant said Pippen should have been FMVP.



Here is what Magic did in the 91' finals:

19/10/11 80%
14/7/10 31%
22/6/10 47%
22/6/11 46%
16/11/20 33%

He was dropping triple doubles on MJ. :oldlol:
Obviously Pippen should have been the primary defender on Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Malone is a bum without Stockton.

Stockton only got hurt once (18 games missed in 98'). Here is how Malone did with, without him:

Malone without Stockton in 98': 24.9/11.1/3.6 52.3%
Malone with Stockton in 98': 27.7/10.1/4.0 53.2%

So he was better with Stockton but 25/11/4 in a low scoring era is not being a bum. 24.9 would be 3rd in scoring in 98'.


Jeff Hornacek was a lot like Klay Thompson but with better ball handling and decision making.

Horancek was a 1x all-star...

[AirBonner]

Stockton only got hurt once (18 games missed in 98'). Here is how Malone did with, without him:

Malone without Stockton in 98': 24.9/11.1/3.6 52.3%
Malone with Stockton in 98': 27.7/10.1/4.0 53.2%

So he was better with Stockton but 25/11/4 in a low scoring era is not being a bum. 24.9 would be 3rd in scoring in 98'.



Horancek was a 1x all-star...
Lol that Hornacek Thompson comparison :biggums::wtf:

[tpols]

Hakeem, Clyde, and Barkley were washed as hell at that point. Kobe in 98 wasn't noteworthy at all. Duncan was good, but a rookie. Shaq was amazing during that time for sure, of course the Jazz couldn't stop him at all. Robinson was still good too...but please stop just throwing names out there. You are purposefully being disingenuous.

Duncan put up superstar numbers. he was a ready made magic esque rookie.

Fun fact. John Stockton is older than hakeem, clyde, and barkley. So no excuses.

Ironically, they had the most trouble with the "washed up" rockets. barely beat them. And they swept shaq.

Utah's run was extremely stacked competition wise.

[PeroAntic]

Stockton only got hurt once (18 games missed in 98'). Here is how Malone did with, without him:

Malone without Stockton in 98': 24.9/11.1/3.6 52.3%
Malone with Stockton in 98': 27.7/10.1/4.0 53.2%

So he was better with Stockton but 25/11/4 in a low scoring era is not being a bum. 24.9 would be 3rd in scoring
Career wise obviously. 18 games in a decade of playing together means nothing. Stockton maximized him, they were good as a unit where Malone is set up all the time. Put a scorer next to Malone and he will struggle.

[86Celtics]

Well, Malone himself underachieved, especially in the 97' finals but no excuse for Stockton and Hornacek combining for only 20 PPG in the 98' finals. Stockton had a good game 1 in 98' but here is what he did for the series:

24/2/8 75%
9/3/7 80%
2/2/7 25% (Bulls take a 2-1 lead)
7/1/13 27% (Bulls take a 3-1 lead)
6/4/12 43% (elimination game)
10/3/5 40% (elimination game)
Averages: 9.7/2.5/8.7 on 49% (7/3/9 on 41% outside of Game 1)

Stockton went from an eFG% of 56.7% in the 98' regular season (12.0 PPG) to 52.1% in the playoffs and 51.0% in the finals. If this isn't choking what is?

Hornacek was even worse since he didn't supply assists.

Utah went from averaging 101 points a game in the season and 104 in the WCF to a pathetic 80 in the NBA finals with Stockton at the controls of the offense. It is amazing he gets a pass for this. This may be the worst performance in a finals for a top 30 all-time great. He was old but Malone & Stockton's calling card is longevity and his performance level was baked into the baseline for 98'--so it can't explain the finals collapse.

Drexler was a much better finals performer than Stockton and on another tier than Hornacek. In theory, they win with Drexler replacing either but the caveat is it is hard to gauge the value of chemistry. Malone & Stockton had developed a lot of it over many years together. You have to assume Drexler alone (18/5/6 in 98') would provide about what Stockton/Hornacek did combined, though.

Stockton didn't choke. Playing poorly doesn't equate to choking in this case. He was going against Harper, Jordan and Pippen arguably the best defensive backcourt ever. It's not difficult to see why his production fell.

[Roundball_Rock]

Career wise obviously. 18 games in a decade of playing together means nothing. Stockton maximized him, they were good as a unit where Malone is set up all the time. Put a scorer next to Malone and he will struggle.

Yeah, it is a shame he didn't get hurt more often to give us a bigger sample size. Come on--that is the only time we have him completely without Stockton in his prime.

The other evidence is from early in his career. Stockton was a role player coming off the bench his first three years. Let's look at Malone's first two years and compare it to a contemporary at the same position:

Malone first 2 seasons: 15/9/3, 22/10/2
Barkley first 2 seasons: 14/9/2, 20/13/4

Very comparable.

What you are saying is what a lot of people said about Amare without Nash, a clearly inferior player to Malone. Yet Amare was a MVP candidate in New York before the Carmelo trade. He declined due to injuries thereafter but he showed he wasn't just a product of playing next to an all-time great passer like Nash. Elite talent will always find a way.

[3ball]

Malone kills it with Clyde.. not sure how many rings.. probably takes Jordan 7 games

But Malone just needed Sean Elliot at SF instead of the defensive-minded Russell - Malone/Stockton/Elliott might beat bulls and be a dynasty.. their chemistry could be thru the roof... Michael Finley would fit the bill too

[hateraid]

If Barkley had a player like Glide history would have been rewritten

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Malone had Stockton who was like Chris Paul and Jeff Hornacek who was like Klay Thompson. Those Jazz teams were dominant.

[Roundball_Rock]

Malone had Stockton who was like Chris Paul and Jeff Hornacek who was like Klay Thompson. Those Jazz teams were dominant.

This is crazy.

[BigShotBob]

This is crazy.

Jeff Hornacek was a 20+ PPG scorer before he went to the Jazz and became a 2nd/3rd option. So....

[Roundball_Rock]

:facepalm

[BigShotBob]

:facepalm

Oh, sorry. You dont know basketball :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9uzQSMcJjQ

[Roundball_Rock]

Hornacek was good; Klay is a HOF player.