I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

[Carbine]

I just watched one of the games in the opening round Knicks series and one thing that really stuck out.

Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

Pippen wasn't great in this game. Quite a few bad turnovers, I didn't chart any defensive plays that stuck out (shutting down a driving Lane off an ISO, a great closeout, rotation, etc) beside a nice first half charge he took in a fast break situation.

Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.

[Roundball_Rock]

You must mean 91' since they didn't play the Knicks in 90'. It sounds like you watched Game 2.

How do you think Ewing looked? He was 6/6/1 on 43% in Game 1. 17/10/2 for the series--but on 40%, which is terrible efficiency for a center.


Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.

They ran that experiment with Jordan for part of the 89' season.

[Carbine]

He looks like a unique talent and came out with something to prove in the first half of game 2, but he didn't perform after that in this game. He missed a lot of shots and didn't make other plays.

[Roundball_Rock]

He looks like a unique talent and came out with something to prove in the first half of game 2, but he didn't perform after that in this game. He missed a lot of shots and didn't make other plays.

That may sum up his career. I don't know what to make of him. Amazing talent, had no offensive help, but also underperformed in key series (especially the 94' finals). On net I tend to be pro-Ewing but he is fascinating to me. What is your take on him career wise?

[ThatCoolKid]

Games I watch of MJ he plays a lot of off the ball for large portions of the game. Nothing wrong with that - but he isn't in the thick of things the way Lebron is to the same extent.

[3ball]

Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much.




And yet he led the bulls in assists for those Playoffs and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97')

That's a primary reason that I have MJ/Bird as #1 and 2 all-time - they're among the only high assist players that didn't play a point guard role (dominate the ball)... And only MJ averaged 10+ assists in a series without bringing the ball up or starting at PG

A couple other things you'll notice - Pippen never hits a big shot and basically doesn't play the 4th quarter - the standard was MJ doing everything in the 4th, as Phil reveals here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s).

Secondly, Pippen is never the primary defender on the opponent's best player.. MJ guarded Magic for most of the 91' Finals, and was the primary defender on Drexler, Miller, Payton (games 3 and 5), and Isiah (numerous)... The only exception is when Pippen guarded Penny and got torched

[Da_Realist]

I just watched one of the games in the opening round Knicks series and one thing that really stuck out.

Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

Pippen wasn't great in this game. Quite a few bad turnovers, I didn't chart any defensive plays that stuck out (shutting down a driving Lane off an ISO, a great closeout, rotation, etc) beside a nice first half charge he took in a fast break situation.

Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.

Interesting challenge. Keep us updated to your thoughts as you go through them. Bookmarked.

[tontoz]

The Bulls ran the triangle offense which was a ball sharing offense based on reads and movement.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Of course he didn't have the ball in his hands, nor did he exert much energy on defense contrary to popular belief.

He didn't have to do much but take a lot of shots. He saved all of his energy for that and did very little dirty work at all. He's more similar to Curry than people realize.

He drew single coverage by guys like Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek more times than not in the finals.

When you watch Jordan you realize he was just a run of the mill SG on a stacked team in a garbage era.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

[3ball]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

Teams that use a primary ball-handler LOSE, while teams that move the ball and use all 5 guys win - the only dynasties since 1990 are system/ball movement teams (bulls, Lakers, Spurs warriors)

And it's harder to score without getting to dribble as much... Dribbling a lot before scoring is AAU skill level.. so it's the opposite of genuis - go to any playground and you'll see stiffs dominating the ball - it's the easiest and dumbest way to play but that's lebron's wheelhouse - dumb AAU ball, aka 3/9 ball, aka get swept-ball.. aka record-loss ball

[ImKobe]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

Averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs while scoring 31 a game for the 1991 title run. Yeah, sure.

[RogueBorg]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

What in the world are you talking about?

Jordan's career usage rate is 33.3% compared to LeBrons's 31.5%

Just for giggles, MJ's TOV% is 9.3 to LeBron's 13.1.

Jordan had the ball more often and committed fewer turnovers.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Teams that use a primary ball-handler LOSE, while teams that move the ball and use all 5 guys win - the only dynasties since 1990 are system/ball movement teams (bulls, Lakers, Spurs warriors)

And it's harder to score without getting to dribble as much... Dribbling a lot before scoring is AAU skill level.. so it's the opposite of genuis - go to any playground and you'll see stiffs dominating the ball - it's the easiest and dumbest way to play but that's lebron's wheelhouse - dumb AAU ball, aka 3/9 ball, aka get swept-ball.. aka record-loss ball
Teams that have more talent relative to the competition win


Jordan was a flashy player so people think he's the GOAT because of marketing hype

Duncan didn't get as much love because he was boring and Spurs played in a tougher era. Their team won more because they had more USEFUL talent just like the bulls... versatile players who could pass, shoot, and have great timing

Lebron never had the most talented or best coached teams and faced MUCH more stiff comp. So what he accomplished is more impressive than what Jordan and Duncan did by a country mile

[AlternativeAcc.]

What in the world are you talking about?

Jordan's career usage rate is 33.3% compared to LeBrons's 31.5%

Just for giggles, MJ's TOV% is 9.3 to LeBron's 13.1.

Jordan had the ball more often and committed fewer turnovers.

Jordan wasn't the main playmaker, ball handler, or defender for any of his championships

Lebron was for all of his, against much tougher comp to boot

Jordan was a jumpshooter on a stacked team in a garbage era.

[Carbine]

It'd be nice if you trolls would just leave.

[StrongLurk]

Keep us posted OP. The game was definitely different in the 90's than now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

This is very true and undermentioned.

Bron would love to be able to pick his spots more, but he's been in many series' and finals where he just didnt have any great playmakers on his team. Its been the norm for him.

He had to take that extra duty on himself.

[Indian guy]

Should be a lot of fun. I've watched and re-watched that playoff run myself quite a few times. 1991 is peak MJ and his desire to win it all probably never greater. He sticks to the game-plan pretty much to a fault during that whole run. The game plan being 1) run the triangle!! 2) get teammates going early 3) look to score in the 2nd half. Of the 6 championship runs, his FGA/G is at its lowest in 1991. APG at its highest. His determination to "play the right way" definitely peaked with this playoff run.

This is also easily Pippen's best playoff run of the 6 championships. And it's easy to see why if you watch the games - it's his best perimeter-shooting postseason by far. He was always a very inconsistent shooter and the reason why his playoff efficiency generally ranged from mediocre to poor. But not in this one. He's just consistently nailing the outside shot.

[StrongLurk]

Should be a lot of fun. I've watched and re-watched that playoff run myself quite a few times. 1991 is peak MJ and his desire to win it all probably never greater. He sticks to the game-plan pretty much to a fault during that whole run. The game plan being 1) run the triangle!! 2) get teammates going early 3) look to score in the 2nd half. Of the 6 championship runs, his FGA/G is at its lowest in 1991. APG at its highest. His determination to "play the right way" definitely peaked with this playoff run.

This is also easily Pippen's best playoff run of the 6 championships. And it's easy to see why if you watch the games - it's his best perimeter-shooting postseason by far. He was always a very inconsistent shooter and the reason why his playoff efficiency generally ranged from mediocre to poor. But not in this one. He's just consistently nailing the outside shot.

I've always said that the 91-93 Bulls were better than the 96-98 Bulls. MJ and Pip was much better in 91-93 and they went up against better competition than the 96-98 teams.

[3ball]

What you'll notice is that everyone on the team including the Kerr's and Will Perdue's of the world - everyone was "Jordan-ing" their matchup.. This is shown best by winning contribution, or win share, which measures how players perform compared to others at their minute-level

Kerr would post a 5+ win share while Ray Allen would get 3 on the Heat because Allen was playing too many minutes (30 min), while Kerr as comfy destroying the 15-minute guys.... perdue would come in for 3 minutes and get 2 rebounds and 1 dunk and go to the bench having destroyed his 3 minute counterpart on the opponent's bench..

the Bulls' minutes were managed well and everyone had the assassin mentality to dominate their matchup.. teammates never missed a shot when MJ passed to them for a game-winners - when it was their turn for a "jordan moment", MJ's fearlessness had rubbed off on them.. no scared donyell Marshalls or korvers or Hills lol

[Turbo Slayer]

I'm considering watching some Playoff games in 91-93. Not all but some. It would be really interesting to see what opponents MJ played against and how MJ's teams performed (And course see MJ).

It would be pretty damn cool coming from a younger fan. Gonna get some perspective.

[LAmbruh]

I tried but it's hard


Like playing PS4 for years and then plugging in your NES hoping it would look as good as you remember it, and quickly hit with the reality it's outdated garbage


Just facts

[Turbo Slayer]

I tried but it's hard


Like playing PS4 for years and then plugging in your NES hoping it would look as good as you remember it, and quickly hit with the reality it's outdated garbage


Just facts What's "outdated garbage" is your troll posts. Forreal.

Also, 20 years later, younger fans arent gonna remember this shit no more.

[aceman]

Skip Bayless was courtside for many games & still doesn't know zone defense. Can watch every game but if you don't understand what's happening before you it's pointless exercise

[aceman]

What you'll notice is that everyone on the team including the Kerr's and Will Perdue's of the world - everyone was "Jordan-ing" their matchup.. This is shown best by winning contribution, or win share, which measures how players perform compared to others at their minute-level

Kerr would post a 5+ win share while Ray Allen would get 3 on the Heat because Allen was playing too many minutes (30 min), while Kerr as comfy destroying the 15-minute guys.... perdue would come in for 3 minutes and get 2 rebounds and 1 dunk and go to the bench having destroyed his 3 minute counterpart on the opponent's bench..

the Bulls' minutes were managed well and everyone had the assassin mentality to dominate their matchup.. teammates never missed a shot when MJ passed to them for a game-winners - when it was their turn for a "jordan moment", MJ's fearlessness had rubbed off on them.. no scared donyell Marshalls or korvers or Hills lol

Teammates stats improved in 1994

[knicksman]

Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

More like jordan is confident in his skills. He knows he can win it all. And so he delegates roles to make it easier for him to carry the team. Meanwhile lebron knows hes not that good so hes expecting an L already. So might as well pad stats coz there will always be nerds who will cite stats when he loses.

[light]

Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.

There's a good reason for that.

If Phil Jackson felt that Jordan having the ball in his hands all the time was the best way to win, then Jordan wouldve had the ball in his hands all the time.

But it couldn't have been more opposite.

Loughery let MJ do that, but it never worked in the playoffs. Collins turned MJ into a point guard where he did have the ball all the time and that didnt work either.

Jackson approached Collins and suggested that they have to find a way to get MJ to give up the ball more.

Collins (paraphrasing): "Good luck with that!"

Jackson stuck with it, though, installed the triangle, took the ball out of MJ's hands (much to MJ's chagrin), and the rings came rolling in.

In general, coaches feel quite comfortable with LeBron having the ball in his hands all of the time.

Harden, though, may need to be MJ'd for more success i.e. less may be more with him.

[Carbine]

Game 3 was a fun game. Not so much for Ewing, for the Bulls in general.

Ewing has moments where he seems unstoppable, but at his core he was a face up and jump shooting big guy on offense with no real go to moves when the game was in balance. At least in this series.

Couple things. Jordan was a pest on defense, he really looks like a DPOY in this game. He was playing in the flow of the offense for all of the first half, bu t after Wilkins blocked him on a rare iso possession, he played much better on offense while still remaining in the flow of the offense.

One thing is clear, there's a reason why MJ is the best half court scorer of all time. His triple threat ability is second to none, it's why he didn't need to dribble a lot to score.

Pippen was a superstar on offense in the first half. He may have had 20 points alone in the first two Q's. Cooled off a bit in the second, but MJ was rolling for awhile there. That was the classic "on" mode for MJ.

Pippens on ball defense is concerning. I keep seeing all this goat perimeter defender stuff, but I charted him for no great individual defensive plays in man to man type situations and in fact had 5 negative marks against him where Kiki Vanderweagh was beating him clean to the hoop.

His off ball defense was superb though. And MJ's. It was really fun seeing those two play help defense.

Nobody else really stood out. The main driving force was Pippens first half on offense (with chip ins from MJ here and there on offense and Majorly on defense) and then Jordan got rolling and after that it was over.

This version of the Knicks were solid on defense, MJ took and made a lot of tough shots. But their offense was poor, led by Ewing.

[Da_Realist]

Game 3 was a fun game. Not so much for Ewing, for the Bulls in general.

Ewing has moments where he seems unstoppable, but at his core he was a face up and jump shooting big guy on offense with no real go to moves when the game was in balance. At least in this series.

Couple things. Jordan was a pest on defense, he really looks like a DPOY in this game. He was playing in the flow of the offense for all of the first half, bu t after Wilkins blocked him on a rare iso possession, he played much better on offense while still remaining in the flow of the offense.

One thing is clear, there's a reason why MJ is the best half court scorer of all time. His triple threat ability is second to none, it's why he didn't need to dribble a lot to score.

Pippen was a superstar on offense in the first half. He may have had 20 points alone in the first two Q's. Cooled off a bit in the second, but MJ was rolling for awhile there. That was the classic "on" mode for MJ.

Pippens on ball defense is concerning. I keep seeing all this goat perimeter defender stuff, but I charted him for no great individual defensive plays in man to man type situations and in fact had 5 negative marks against him where Kiki Vanderweagh was beating him clean to the hoop.

His off ball defense was superb though. And MJ's. It was really fun seeing those two play help defense.

Nobody else really stood out. The main driving force was Pippens first half on offense (with chip ins from MJ here and there on offense and Majorly on defense) and then Jordan got rolling and after that it was over.

This version of the Knicks were solid on defense, MJ took and made a lot of tough shots. But their offense was poor, led by Ewing.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts, whatever they are. I've watched most of these games many, many times (I have all of their playoff games from 86-98). I'm interesting in reading a fresh perspective from someone that's not a troll. I may not respond much but I will be reading.

[StrongLurk]

Game 3 was a fun game. Not so much for Ewing, for the Bulls in general.

Ewing has moments where he seems unstoppable, but at his core he was a face up and jump shooting big guy on offense with no real go to moves when the game was in balance. At least in this series.

Couple things. Jordan was a pest on defense, he really looks like a DPOY in this game. He was playing in the flow of the offense for all of the first half, bu t after Wilkins blocked him on a rare iso possession, he played much better on offense while still remaining in the flow of the offense.

One thing is clear, there's a reason why MJ is the best half court scorer of all time. His triple threat ability is second to none, it's why he didn't need to dribble a lot to score.

Pippen was a superstar on offense in the first half. He may have had 20 points alone in the first two Q's. Cooled off a bit in the second, but MJ was rolling for awhile there. That was the classic "on" mode for MJ.

Pippens on ball defense is concerning. I keep seeing all this goat perimeter defender stuff, but I charted him for no great individual defensive plays in man to man type situations and in fact had 5 negative marks against him where Kiki Vanderweagh was beating him clean to the hoop.

His off ball defense was superb though. And MJ's. It was really fun seeing those two play help defense.

Nobody else really stood out. The main driving force was Pippens first half on offense (with chip ins from MJ here and there on offense and Majorly on defense) and then Jordan got rolling and after that it was over.

This version of the Knicks were solid on defense, MJ took and made a lot of tough shots. But their offense was poor, led by Ewing.

The Knicks were always a one-sided team (defense). They could go away with that playing in the 90's, but they would even less noteworthy is the 80's and most of the 2000's.

[SATAN]

You'll probably notice, Mj was over rated by casuals. He was good though. Just, not that good. There's a fair chance LeBron James would kick his ass one on one.

[Carbine]

Game 1 vs Philly again Pip was a beast in the first half on offense. Cartwright was also ON FIRE in the first Q, he couldn't be stopped.

One person that I haven't been impressed with is Horace Grant so far in this run. He honestly is just an energy, hustle active defender type player right now which is nothing wrong with that - but ultimately a far cry from a borderline all-star I was hoping to see. I don't know what his numbers are, but he gets a lot of uncontested dunks or lay ups off Jordan or Pippens passing. So while he may be a "16/8" guy whatever that means when I see it poted here, half of those 16 are directly off of other players ability to feed him uncontested dunks or lay ups. Hes not out there giving 16 on hooks and up and unders.

Again, Pippens Iso defense was lackluster in this one. Barkley had no issues with him in those situations, beating him every time. Pippen did have a nice close out onsomeone else though, but this game was over by the 4th Q

Comparing Barkley to Ewing. It's no contest, Barkley looks so much better than Ewing this year. I feel bad for Barkley, his team was awful. Jordan wasn't winning anything with that squad either.

[3ball]

Game 1 vs Philly again Pip was a beast in the first half on offense. Cartwright was also ON FIRE in the first Q, he couldn't be stopped.

One person that I haven't been impressed with is Horace Grant so far in this run. He honestly is just an energy, hustle active defender type player right now which is nothing wrong with that - but ultimately a far cry from a borderline all-star I was hoping to see. I don't know what his numbers are, but he gets a lot of uncontested dunks or lay ups off Jordan or Pippens passing. So while he may be a "16/8" guy whatever that means when I see it poted here, half of those 16 are directly off of other players ability to feed him uncontested dunks or lay ups. Hes not out there giving 16 on hooks and up and unders.

Again, Pippens Iso defense was lackluster in this one. Barkley had no issues with him in those situations, beating him every time. Pippen did have a nice close out onsomeone else though, but this game was over by the 4th Q

Comparing Barkley to Ewing. It's no contest, Barkley looks so much better than Ewing this year. I feel bad for Barkley, his team was awful. Jordan wasn't winning anything with that squad either.

Dude everyone knew Horace was a simple dunker

You will never see him do anything else, and yes, sometimes these guys make 1 all-star team, similar to PJ Brown or Oakley

And yes, everyone always got theirs on Pippen.. in every series - the stats show this and now your eye test will see it

[Phoenix]

Comparing Barkley to Ewing. It's no contest, Barkley looks so much better than Ewing this year. I feel bad for Barkley, his team was awful. Jordan wasn't winning anything with that squad either.

Barkley was probably the 2nd best player in the league at that point. What you're perceiving in terms of him looking better than Ewing is because he was prime for prime.

[Smoke117]

What you'll notice is that everyone on the team including the Kerr's and Will Perdue's of the world - everyone was "Jordan-ing" their matchup.. This is shown best by winning contribution, or win share, which measures how players perform compared to others at their minute-level

Kerr would post a 5+ win share while Ray Allen would get 3 on the Heat because Allen was playing too many minutes (30 min), while Kerr as comfy destroying the 15-minute guys.... perdue would come in for 3 minutes and get 2 rebounds and 1 dunk and go to the bench having destroyed his 3 minute counterpart on the opponent's bench..

the Bulls' minutes were managed well and everyone had the assassin mentality to dominate their matchup.. teammates never missed a shot when MJ passed to them for a game-winners - when it was their turn for a "jordan moment", MJ's fearlessness had rubbed off on them.. no scared donyell Marshalls or korvers or Hills lol

You’re so ****ing pathetic. You’re like 50 years old and acting like a 16 yr old teenage girl over Jordan. What the **** is wrong with you?!

[Indian guy]

One person that I haven't been impressed with is Horace Grant so far in this run. He honestly is just an energy, hustle active defender type player right now

Horace was never regarded as anything more than a quality role player though. Good finisher off set-ups, could hit the mid-range jumper with consistency and a versatile defender. I'm a little confused by why you were expecting something more. And he was never a "16/8" guy. The most he averaged was 15 ppg and hung around 12-13 ppg otherwise.


Again, Pippens Iso defense was lackluster in this one. Barkley had no issues with him in those situations, beating him every time. Pippen did have a nice close out onsomeone else though, but this game was over by the 4th Q

Pippen on Barkely is a bad match-up. Simply didn't have the strength to deal with him. And as great as he was defensively, post defense was always a weakness of Pippen's.

Philadelphia's defense is a complete joke, btw. Statistically their DRTG was below league average but they come off looking way worse than that in their 2 series' against Chicago in '90 and '91. Couldn't stop dribble penetration to save their lives. Nonexistent interior D. MJ and Pippen could pretty much do anything.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Where are you watching the games? I want to watch after I’m done watching the Michael Jordan documentary. The Last Dance.

[RRR3]

You'll probably notice, Mj was over rated by casuals. He was good though. Just, not that good. There's a fair chance LeBron James would kick his ass one on one.
LeBron is bigger so he would very likely beat Jordan one on one. That had absolutely nothing to do with who’s better at basketball though :lol

Shaq would destroy everyone one on one

[Phoenix]

Horace was never regarded as anything more than a quality role player though. Good finisher off set-ups, could hit the mid-range jumper with consistency and a versatile defender. I'm a little confused by why you were expecting something more. And he was never a "16/8" guy. The most he averaged was 15 ppg and hung around 12-13 ppg otherwise.


Probably because there are some on here who act like Horace was more than you described.

[Carbine]

Horace was never regarded as anything more than a quality role player though. Good finisher off set-ups, could hit the mid-range jumper with consistency and a versatile defender. I'm a little confused by why you were expecting something more. And he was never a "16/8" guy. The most he averaged was 15 ppg and hung around 12-13 ppg otherwise.



Pippen on Barkely is a bad match-up. Simply didn't have the strength to deal with him. And as great as he was defensively, post defense was always a weakness of Pippen's.

Philadelphia's defense is a complete joke, btw. Statistically their DRTG was below league average but they come off looking way worse than that in their 2 series' against Chicago in '90 and '91. Couldn't stop dribble penetration to save their lives. Nonexistent interior D. MJ and Pippen could pretty much do anything.

Pippen got caught on bad positioning in a post feed on one of the hoops he gave up to Barkley, but Barkley got the ball 20 feet away from the bucket a couple times on a wing iso and faced him up, blew right by him. He beat him with quickness, not stength. At least in this game.

[Carbine]

Game 2 Vs Philly was the first game of this run where I thought Jordans defense was suspect. He had a rough stretch in the first half. He had some some individual plays here and there but overall it wasn't good in that end.

Horace was the big catalyst in the clutch in this one, with Pippen chipping in. Jordan was really a non factor in the last 3-4 minutes oft his game, beside a nice defensive play. Horace got some back breaking Offensive rebounds.

Pippens defense was also poor in this one individually. Barkley got whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted in iso coverage. They doubled quite often. Barkley settled for jumpers in crunch time for this one.

Paxton and Purdue were very solid in this one too.

[Hey Yo]

Dude everyone knew Horace was a simple dunker

You will never see him do anything else, and yes, sometimes these guys make 1 all-star team, similar to PJ Brown or Oakley

And yes, everyone always got theirs on Pippen.. in every series - the stats show this and now your eye test will see it
Funny how you downplay 1x All-Stars but constantly bring up 1x All-Star Mo William's and how great he was with the Cavs.

[LAL]

There's a good reason for that.

If Phil Jackson felt that Jordan having the ball in his hands all the time was the best way to win, then Jordan wouldve had the ball in his hands all the time.

But it couldn't have been more opposite.

Loughery let MJ do that, but it never worked in the playoffs. Collins turned MJ into a point guard where he did have the ball all the time and that didnt work either.

Jackson approached Collins and suggested that they have to find a way to get MJ to give up the ball more.

Collins (paraphrasing): "Good luck with that!"

Jackson stuck with it, though, installed the triangle, took the ball out of MJ's hands (much to MJ's chagrin), and the rings came rolling in.

In general, coaches feel quite comfortable with LeBron having the ball in his hands all of the time.

Harden, though, may need to be MJ'd for more success i.e. less may be more with him.

It worked stats wise, didn't win in his first 7 years just like lebron? He could average a triple double in his sleep. Lebron can't play the Kobe or MJ role (off ball scorer, triangle), they can play the point however, enough proof. They just want to be active scorers and read the game as true wing players, adjust whenever needed but always take the shot when open or when they can beat their defender, not only excerting energy on fast breaks or transition points. Lebron's playmaking in his system is him hiding his weaknesses. You think Kobe,MJ or KD couldn't put up Doncic/Westbrook stats? Still has many many flaws that has nothing to do with MJ or Kobe. That's why Heatles underachieved, couldn't truly adjust, to this day. Gasol last week said stars are so focused on all around numbers, kobe would've easily outdid a Westbrook if that was his focus, just saying.

[Carbine]

Game 3 was very interesting.

Will Purdue hurt the Bulls for a stretch in the middle of the fouth Q. Taking sweeping hooks over Bol....... bad turnovers.

I'm still waiting for this best perimeter defender of all time to show up. This is the sixth straight game I think his individual defense is poor. He has a strong game in the NYK series with the help defense though, with other moments sprinkled in via help defense, but overall...... He's WAY more important on offense. He's actually playing at a 1B type level on offense right now, with the way he handles, makes plays, pushes the ball in the break.

Pippen did have two awful possessions in crunch time of this game though, one of which was end of game situation down 1.

Jordan was up to his usual defensive ability in the first half, to me there is no question who the better on ball defender is between the two RIGHT NOW between him and Pippen. However he did have bad moments on defense in the second half.

He missed 3 free throws in the final 2 minutes of the game and ultimately he was the reason they were down by 1 point in the final posession. They were up by 2 and he helped off a scorching hot Hawkins one pass away in the corner off a Barkley drive and Jordan couldn't recover in time - bang right in MJ's face.

MJ didn't always come through in the clutch. He certainly didn't in this game (neither did Pippen)

Horace was very solid in this game, both sides of the ball.

[Soundwave]

Jordan's defensive impact has always been underrated because his offensive game was so spectacular.

The Bulls were the no.1 D in the NBA in 97-98 while Pippen was out.

Even more astonishing than that though is the fact that at age 38, Jordan took the 2nd worst defensive team in the NBA in the Wizards, and with no other significant roster addition turned them into the 6th best defensive team before tearing his knee and requiring surgery unfortunately.

But that turn around defensively is insane.

[2ball]

Jordan's defensive impact has always been underrated because his offensive game was so spectacular.

The Bulls were the no.1 D in the NBA in 97-98 while Pippen was out.

Even more astonishing than that though is the fact that at age 38, Jordan took the 2nd worst defensive team in the NBA in the Wizards, and with no other significant roster addition turned them into the 6th best defensive team before tearing his knee and requiring surgery unfortunately.

But that turn around defensively is insane.

Fact. It was MJ’s GOAT 2-way play kept the bulls from just being a borderline playoff team and instead being a 3-Peat team.

[Indian guy]

but overall...... He's WAY more important on offense.

What you mean is Pippen's offense is better than his defense during this playoff run.

Because of course, good offense is always more important for the individual player. Pippen could be the GOAT defender and he'd still be way more valuable on the other end of the floor for the Bulls. Much easier to replace good D than good O.


Jordan was up to his usual defensive ability in the first half, to me there is no question who the better on ball defender is between the two RIGHT NOW between him and Pippen. However he did have bad moments on defense in the second half.


No surprises here. MJ being Chicago's best defender was the consensus back then too during the 1st 3peat.


He missed 3 free throws in the final 2 minutes of the game and ultimately he was the reason they were down by 1 point in the final posession.

MJ wasn't as foolproof at the line as someone with his mental toughness and clutch rep would make you think. I've seen him miss late-game free throws quite a few times too.

btw, MJ had 46 points in this game despite injuring his knee in the 2nd qtr and playing hobbled the rest of the game. That's the biggest takeaway from this game. Yet no mention of it in your recap.....

[aceman]

Game 2 Vs Philly was the first game of this run where I thought Jordans defense was suspect. He had a rough stretch in the first half. He had some some individual plays here and there but overall it wasn't good in that end.

Horace was the big catalyst in the clutch in this one, with Pippen chipping in. Jordan was really a non factor in the last 3-4 minutes oft his game, beside a nice defensive play. Horace got some back breaking Offensive rebounds.

Pippens defense was also poor in this one individually. Barkley got whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted in iso coverage. They doubled quite often. Barkley settled for jumpers in crunch time for this one.

Paxton and Purdue were very solid in this one too.

Any thoughts on team play / strategy?

[aceman]

Jordan's defensive impact has always been underrated because his offensive game was so spectacular.

The Bulls were the no.1 D in the NBA in 97-98 while Pippen was out.

Even more astonishing than that though is the fact that at age 38, Jordan took the 2nd worst defensive team in the NBA in the Wizards, and with no other significant roster addition turned them into the 6th best defensive team before tearing his knee and requiring surgery unfortunately.

But that turn around defensively is insane.

But in playoffs Pippen & Harper doing heavy lifting to allow Jordan to rest

[Carbine]

I know it's 6 games into their first playoff title run, but Pippen hasn't been doing any heavy lifting on defense. Onto game 4 of the ECSF

[Carbine]

Any thoughts on team play / strategy?

This era was all about getting it into the post. Neither of the three teams I've seen in 91 have run many pick and rolls or perimeter ISOs.

Bulls doubled Barkley a lot on the wing post this series. Sidenote, Barkley is one of the very best two foot jumpers in NBA history. So springy but powerful.

[Carbine]

Horace getting chewed out by Phil "You pass the ****ing ball. That's your job"

Horace walks away to bench like a pissed off kid who didn't get his way.

[Phoenix]

One of these Philly games I remember Scottie starting the game 7 for 7 or something like that. I'm thinking it was game 5 because they were at home and you're up to game 3 or 4 now OP?( which would be in Philly).

[jlitt]

Jordan's M.O. was to always lay low for the first half and get teammates involved then proceed to take over the games.

[jlitt]

barkley may have been the most doubled team player in nba history not named shaq. bulls doubled and tripled him every time. And not with losers either, he was scoring on pippen and grant like it was nothing.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan's defensive impact has always been underrated because his offensive game was so spectacular.

The Bulls were the no.1 D in the NBA in 97-98 while Pippen was out.

They were 4th in points allowed--not sure where the #1 figure comes from (is the D rating for then available? Points allowed data is available through 35 games). The defense did play better without Pippen, than with Pippen in 98', though (mainly due to Rodman temporarily stepping up, as the doc even showed).

The same thing happened when MJ retired. The Bulls defense improved in 94' from #7 to #6 and then improved again without Grant to #2 in 95'.

The Bulls fell from #1 in scoring in 97' to #18 in scoring while Pippen was out (-10 points). Their falloff offensively without Pippen was much greater than when they lost Jordan, which suggests his offense has always been underrated (which includes facilitating and making sure everyone stays involved, not just taking shots) because his defense was so spectacular.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png


Jordan was up to his usual defensive ability in the first half, to me there is no question who the better on ball defender is between the two RIGHT NOW between him and Pippen.

Jordan was considered the better defender in the first threepeat, Pippen in the second. You are looking for something that didn't exist back then, especially in 91'. Pippen wasn't even all-D 1st team in 91' (he was 2nd).


But in playoffs Pippen & Harper doing heavy lifting to allow Jordan to rest

In the second threepeat so he could conserve his energy for offense but MJ did a lot more on defense in the first threepeat.

[Carbine]

Pippen is basically 13/13 and it's midway through the third Q. What a great game in a closeout situation.

Jordan was in jack mode in the first half. He wasnt hitting but still kept shooting.

Pippen still getting beat on defense.

Poor Barkley, besides Hawkins he has nobody. He is doing his best to keep them in it so far. Defensively hes actually solid too. I know ive seen plenty of his No D playing ways in comparison threads but I don't see that whatsoever in these playoffs. He's not an anchor type but that's alright. He's not a sieve. Actually a positive with his individual defense, he blocked Jordan in an ISO move and generally has stayed in front of him on the rare matchups.

This series wasn't won because of Jordan, the supporting cast of the Bulls really took it to the 76ers supporting cast and Jordans #2 was better than Philly's #2

[FKAri]

Where are you watching these games? Are they available somewhere?

[Carbine]

I've seen every game on YouTube

[FKAri]

I've seen every game on YouTube

from 90 to 98? Every playoff game?

[Carbine]

I don't know, I'm only on the '91 ECF series now. Long ways to go.

Jordan certainly closed this game out. Give him credit, it wasn't falling in the first half but he was even more aggressive in the second half looking for his shot.

I guess he smelled blood. Defensively he made one of the nicest shot contests I've seen coming from the wrakside to contest a fade away jumper on the other side of the floor and deflect the shot. Unbelievable

[Da_Realist]

I don't know, I'm only on the '91 ECF series now. Long ways to go.

Jordan certainly closed this game out. Give him credit, it wasn't falling in the first half but he was even more aggressive in the second half looking for his shot.

I guess he smelled blood. Defensively he made one of the nicest shot contests I've seen coming from the wrakside to contest a fade away jumper on the other side of the floor and deflect the shot. Unbelievable

Which game does this refer to?

[Carbine]

Game 5 vs Philly

[LostCause]

This is actually one of the coolest threads here. Respect for actually watching basketball instead of being one of the weirdo drama queens here obsessing over he say/she say nonsense

I can’t say I ever thought to watch all the games on YouTube. This thread will be fun to follow to see the contrast from the 1st 3peat to the 2nd. I was thinking of rewatching some of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and Big 3 Heat myself

[Manny98]

I just watched one of the games in the opening round Knicks series and one thing that really stuck out.

Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

Pippen wasn't great in this game. Quite a few bad turnovers, I didn't chart any defensive plays that stuck out (shutting down a driving Lane off an ISO, a great closeout, rotation, etc) beside a nice first half charge he took in a fast break situation.

Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.
Watching the 92 finals right now and that's the first thing that I noticed

I like how Jordan doesn't waste his movements when he touches the ball, superstar players today do a lot of unnecessary dribbles when they have the ball whilst Jordan has a more methodical approach to his game

[Carbine]

Jordan has been pretty bad in game 1 through three quarters. Pippen kept the team afloat in the third Q he was absolutely dominant on both sides of the ball, he had four noteworthy defensive plays alone.

This is the defensive Pippen I've been looking for.

[Roundball_Rock]

Which game are you up to now?

[Carbine]

I just finished game 1 against the Pistons.

The unit to start the 4th Q was great for the Bulls, it allowed Pippen and Jordan to rest for six minutes of the fourth Q and they extended the lead.

Pippen was definitely the best player for the Bulls in this one, but it was a collective team win for sure. Jordan in my opinion was a negative player in this one.

Vinny and Maguire were great for Detroit. Pistons got nothing from Lambier.

[Phoenix]

I just finished game 1 against the Pistons.

The unit to start the 4th Q was great for the Bulls, it allowed Pippen and Jordan to rest for six minutes of the fourth Q and they extended the lead.

Pippen was definitely the best player for the Bulls in this one, but it was a collective team win for sure. Jordan in my opinion was a negative player in this one.

Vinny and Maguire were great for Detroit. Pistons got nothing from Lambier.

MJ was 22/6/3 in this one, 6/15 from the floor. Pretty pedestrian game by his standards. Pip was 18/2/5 but most importantly 6 steals and 5 blocks.

[StrongLurk]

Watching the 92 finals right now and that's the first thing that I noticed

I like how Jordan doesn't waste his movements when he touches the ball, superstar players today do a lot of unnecessary dribbles when they have the ball whilst Jordan has a more methodical approach to his game

Wrong account?

[LostCause]

Wrong account?

Possibly but if not, he’s watching and learning

That’s a good thing, regardless of what his takeaways are

[Manny98]

Wrong account?
Is it that shocking that I said something positive about Jordan :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Wrong account?

I was thinking the same lol. No trolling or emojis?

[Carbine]

Through a game and a half Pippen has been the best player. I'm more than a halfway through this playoff run and in no way shape or form is Jordan carrying bums or carrying anything really. It's not a one man show. It's a really really good team.

Everytime I look the Bulls front court is lurking the other teams front court. Outscoring them by 20+ type murking.

Dumars was going at Jordan in the first half and scoring against him. Pippens defense has been great, very active.

Things can change, but I'm not exactly sure why people don't think of this as a true partnership ring so far through this many games. Sidekick ring is kind of insulting to what Pippen has done so far.

Ive been speaking more negatively on Jordan than I was assuming I would. I think he's the GOAT, but that doesn't mean my objectivity is compromised. The film is there for anyone to see.

Maybe Jordan explodes and carries them the rest of the way, I don't know. We'll see.

[BigShotBob]

Through a game and a half Pippen has been the best player. I'm more than a halfway through this playoff run and in no way shape or form is Jordan carrying bums or carrying anything really. It's not a one man show. It's a really really good team.

Everytime I look the Bulls front court is lurking the other teams front court. Outscoring them by 20+ type murking.

Dumars was going at Jordan in the first half and scoring against him. Pippens defense has been great, very active.

Things can change, but I'm not exactly sure why people don't think of this as a true partnership ring so far through this many games. Sidekick ring is kind of insulting to what Pippen has done so far.

Ive been speaking more negatively on Jordan than I was assuming I would. I think he's the GOAT, but that doesn't mean my objectivity is compromised. The film is there for anyone to see.

Maybe Jordan explodes and carries them the rest of the way, I don't know. We'll see.

Joe Dumars is one of the greatest defenders of all time, so its not like MJ would torch him.

But the beauty of the triangle is that MJ didn't have to do everything anymore and they took him off-ball, giving more people room to shine.

[tpols]

Things can change, but I'm not exactly sure why people don't think of this as a true partnership ring so far through this many games.


wait you're jumping to these conclusions after only 2 series in their first run?

before they ever even won their first title?

your agenda has already been revealed.

[Carbine]

I'm not jumping to any conclusions, I'm saying up to this point. I literally said things can change.

It's basically halfway through this series, so 1 and 1/2 left to go. What has transpired so far is 60 percent of this year's story. Not insignificant.

[BigShotBob]

I'm not jumping to any conclusions, I'm saying up to this point. I literally said things can change.

It's basically halfway through this series, so 1 and 1/2 left to go. What has transpired so far is 60 percent of this year's story. Not insignificant.

Yea MJ went off that second half in Game 3. Thanks for letting me know it's on youtube, watching it now.

[Carbine]

One thing that sticks out for this run is Pippen scores a lot off his own greatness. He's not one of these "assisted" scorers.

Bulls always try to get Cartwright going early

Thomas stepped in off a wide open three in game 3, if he did that today he would be ridiculed

Triangle doesn't provide the type of spacing we see today.

Isiah beat Will Purdue on a jump ball. His vert was exceptional even at 29/30 years old

Jordan deviated from the triangle in crunch time. It was more like we see from today's game, without all the 3 pters to space the floor properly. He closed this game and ultimately any chance for the Pistons out.

Pippen was again very good on offense and made some nice plays on defense, same with MJ. Specifically help defense.


Pippen actually had a couple turnovers that were credited to him but really was Horace's fault. If the ball hits you in the chest and hands on a post entry but you fumble it away, that's on you.

A lot of people played well for the Bulls though. Horace was efficient in his role, Cartwright was steady as always.

Onto game 4

[Phoenix]

Bulls always try to get Cartwright going early


That was a common ploy to get those guys (Longley in the 2nd 3peat) touches early on to keep them engaged. They were marginal players but you needed their size for interior defense and rebounding.

What's your impressions on the Pistons this series? Do they look 'old' as is the common sentiment nowadays that Chicago beat them only once they had aged?

[Carbine]

Lambier looks like a huge negative for them out there so maybe he was "old"

But Vinny was doing work. Aguirre was getting his. Thomas certainly doesn't look old from an athletic stand point, neither does Dumars.

I don't view Cart as a marginal player. Not in this playoff run. He is a guy who can get buckets in post isos quite regularly, has had full quarter spurts where he was absolutely dominant. This is not a marginal player to me.

[Phoenix]

Isiah wasnt 100% but he was 29/30. Dumars was 28 and had only been in the league 4-5 years at that point. No reason for either of those two to be athletically spent at that point in their careers. Ditto for Rodman who was 30 but started his career at 26. Laimbeer, Edwards, Microwave and Aguirre were the guys over 30.

Cartwright dominant? Ok I may need to review a couple of these games myself.

[Carbine]

Game 1 of the '91 finals was excellent. I am blown away by how many post isos the Lakers run, that's all they do in half court sets.

Perkins and Worthy had their way with the Chicago defenders down there, Pippen - Grant - Cartwright...... didn't matter. Buckets all game.

Pippen couldn't get his shot falling all game but in the final 3 minutes of a tie game he was the one making the plays.

Jordan was unstoppable for the first 45 minutes. He was ultra impressive on both sides of the ball........BUT, in the final 3 minutes he did not score and he missed an "ice" the game shot to go up 4, and then missed the final shot to win. If social media existed back then he would have gotten blasted for this, just as LeBron has in this past. Especially a finals game.

Just because it is such a hot topic for Jordan, he was the primary defender on Magic this entire game and here is what Magic did against him as the primary defender:

-Fouled him 4 times on shooting attempts (Magic had a very favorable whistle)
-1 3pt made
-1 miss
-2 TO
-2 Assists

Magic got his, but it was not against Jordan as the primary defender. Jordan did a GREAT job against him.

Note: I did not count Magic assists where he dumped it into the post and Worthy/Perk/Vlade took their guy on a pure iso post move and scored. Magic was very content to bring the ball up and dump it into the post and watch fro the 3 pt line with Jordan on him.

[aceman]

That was a common ploy to get those guys (Longley in the 2nd 3peat) touches early on to keep them engaged. They were marginal players but you needed their size for interior defense and rebounding.

What's your impressions on the Pistons this series? Do they look 'old' as is the common sentiment nowadays that Chicago beat them only once they had aged?

Look to get opposition bigs some fouls cause Longley was going foul out before game ended anyway - also make defense respect & not double

[Carbine]

MJ was the primary defender until 4 minutes in the first when he picked up his second foul. From there on out in game two is was Pippen as the primary defender.

Johnson really didn't have a problem with Pippen. It took him some extra effort to bring the ball up but it didn't disrupt them from getting into their offense (post ups) and generally speaking when Magic wanted to get by Pippen, he did.

The reason this game was comfortable in hand was four Bulls made like 35 shots and missed just 6. Cartwright, Paxton, MJ and Horace were incredibly efficient in this one. It wasn't because of Pippen switching on Magic, lol. Not at all.

[Sarcastic]

Game 2 was the only one where Pippen was the primary defender on Magic. Jordan goes back to being the primary defender for games 3, 4, and 5.

[aceman]

MJ was the primary defender until 4 minutes in the first when he picked up his second foul. From there on out in game two is was Pippen as the primary defender.

Johnson really didn't have a problem with Pippen. It took him some extra effort to bring the ball up but it didn't disrupt them from getting into their offense (post ups) and generally speaking when Magic wanted to get by Pippen, he did.

The reason this game was comfortable in hand was four Bulls made like 35 shots and missed just 6. Cartwright, Paxton, MJ and Horace were incredibly efficient in this one. It wasn't because of Pippen switching on Magic, lol. Not at all.

Pippen directed Magic to help defense - Magic didn't get by him.

[Carbine]

Im not talking about post ups where they force Magic baseline into help. Magic got by him plenty enough from the perimeter into the middle of the defense - this is not good defense. You don't let the best PG ever into the teeth of your defense.

Magic really played his ass off in the first Q of game 3. He controlled the game from the post. Beautiful to watch.

That forcing baseline double off of Magic posts ups wasn't such a good idea. Magic has dominated that strategy so far.

[Carbine]

Pippen just switched on him and again got by him easily from the top of the key into the middle of the defense.

If you think that's good defense, or a "gameplan" I don't know what to say to that. It's not a conversation I'm willing to entertain.

One thing is for sure, Phil loves sending Magic baseline into help defense off iso post ups in the block.

So many guys have beautiful footwork in the post, Worthy is a hell of a post up player. He gave Pippen buckets to start this game.

I guess it fits the era. That was the game back then so that's the required skills needed for it.

[3ball]

Im not talking about post ups where they force Magic baseline into help. Magic got by him plenty enough from the perimeter into the middle of the defense - this is not good defense. You don't let the best PG ever into the teeth of your defense.

Magic really played his ass off in the first Q of game 3. He controlled the game from the post. Beautiful to watch.

That forcing baseline double off of Magic posts ups wasn't such a good idea. Magic has dominated that strategy so far.

Please let us know exactly how many quarters that Pippen guards Magic in the 91' Finals

I have Pippen on Magic for zero minutes in games 1 or 5 and the last 4 minutes of game 4 .. then he guards Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th of game 2, and 2nd/3rd of game 3... That's 6 of 20 quarters for Pippen, and 14/20 for
Jordan (and Jordan for the game 3 OT)

[3ball]

.
91' Jordan Playoffs... 36.7 assist %... 32.7 usage.. guarded Dumars and Isiah
91' Pippen Playoffs... 22.7 assist %... 25.0 usage.. guarded Aguirre

91' Jordan Finals... 45.8 assist %... 31.9 usage... guarded Magic 14 of 20 qtr
91' Pippen Finals... 21.5 assist %... 26.0 usage... guarded Magic.. 6 of 20 qtr



^^^ MJ assisted on 70-120% more possessions and finished 30% more possessions.. that's the 2nd-best two-way carry job ever, behind mj's 92' Finals.

Magic is normally guarded by forwards, but everyone knew Pippen couldn't handle it in his first Finals, so MJ guarded him to start and most of the series

Btw... In addition to MJ having higher assist % and usage, MJ had higher efficiency on those possessions (125 ortg to 114 for Pippen)

[aceman]

Pippen just switched on him and again got by him easily from the top of the key into the middle of the defense.

If you think that's good defense, or a "gameplan" I don't know what to say to that. It's not a conversation I'm willing to entertain.

One thing is for sure, Phil loves sending Magic baseline into help defense off iso post ups in the block.

So many guys have beautiful footwork in the post, Worthy is a hell of a post up player. He gave Pippen buckets to start this game.

I guess it fits the era. That was the game back then so that's the required skills needed for it.

Magic took almost three times the shots from game one & had a poor percentage so it worked. From memory magic resorted to getting by Pippen almost immediately to avoid pressure but forced magic to take shot was not in Lakers interest

[Sarcastic]

Magic was pretty much unstoppable still in 91, no matter who was on him. He was 1 year removed from MVP. He wasn't anything close to washed up, or old as some people have said.

[3ball]

Magic was pretty much unstoppable still in 91, no matter who was on him. He was 1 year removed from MVP. He wasn't anything close to washed up, or old as some people have said.

Exactly, Pippen had a few good possessions on Magic at first but then got destroyed like anyone else

The stats show that Magic did well against both MJ and Pippen... But "well" isn't nearly enough when MJ is playing better than anyone ever has

[Nikola_]

So Pippen didnt really shut down Magic.

This is rare argument in Pippens favor which turns out to be false

[Overdrive]

If all Lebron stans(stans not the trolls who dgaf about bball anyway) would do this alot of the agenda driven bullshit would stop.

[aceman]

So Pippen didnt really shut down Magic.

This is rare argument in Pippens favor which turns out to be false

Magic didn't think so;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DwbjBJy6AWQA&ved=2ahUKEwi9ubKF7djpAhWBxjgGHcTRBe8Qo7QBMAN6BAgEE AE&usg=AOvVaw0o0MtS_F6Mlmt7rdIDn_Fp

[Carbine]

MJ was the primary defender this game when he was in there. Pippen grabbed him a few possessions and Magic beat him.

This wasn't a good overall game for MJ. He was particularly bad in the second half..... it was a frustrating game for him on both sides. He couldn't stop Magic from doing what he wanted and he couldn't get much going on the other end. Until the end, when the team needed it most - I think this is what encapsulated Jordan. He was having his worst offensive stretch of the post season.... but he made the game tying shot, and closed it out in the overtime.

We remember those moments. Not how ineffective he was up until that point.

Levingstone deserves a lot of credit. He was great in his minutes. Paxton was hitting big shots too, particularly to stop the bleeding in the third Q.

Speaking of Pippen, he made 3 impact plays on defense in the 4th Q, along with some nice buckets (also missed quite a few too) but overall, his man to man defense is extremely ordinary this post season run. I'd say bad as far as stopping players go.

This was a series defining game. 2-1 for the Lakers with another two to go at the Forum could have been a very different series.

Overall Jordan had one of his two worst games of the post season here, but had the memorable moment at the end.

[Carbine]

Something that popped in my head while watching this series, especially the Jordan/Magic battle is we always here about Magic and Jordan were equals on offense, but Jordan was a lockdown defender so he's just the better player.

On paper it makes sense. A lot of sense.

But in this player comparison, MJ's defense had no effect on Magic. He was still out there being Magic Johnson being defended by Jordan.

If Magics offense was so good that MJ's defense couldn't mitigate it at least somewhat, why does MJ's defense get brought up in this discussion when debating between the two as players?

[3ball]

MJ was the primary defender this game when he was in there. Pippen grabbed him a few possessions and Magic beat him.

This wasn't a good overall game for MJ. He was particularly bad in the second half..... it was a frustrating game for him on both sides. He couldn't stop Magic from doing what he wanted and he couldn't get much going on the other end. Until the end, when the team needed it most - I think this is what encapsulated Jordan. He was having his worst offensive stretch of the post season.... but he made the game tying shot, and closed it out in the overtime.

We remember those moments. Not how ineffective he was up until that point.

Levingstone deserves a lot of credit. He was great in his minutes. Paxton was hitting big shots too, particularly to stop the bleeding in the third Q.

Speaking of Pippen, he made 3 impact plays on defense in the 4th Q, along with some nice buckets (also missed quite a few too) but overall, his man to man defense is extremely ordinary this post season run. I'd say bad as far as stopping players go.

This was a series defining game. 2-1 for the Lakers with another two to go at the Forum could have been a very different series.

Overall Jordan had one of his two worst games of the post season here, but had the memorable moment at the end.

You're obviously talking about game 3... Pippen commits the idiotic foul on Divac that lost the game... If not for MJ... Fortunately, Pippen fouled out on that play so he wasn't there to be useless in the OT (clutch)...

That's where the GOAT took over by locking Magic up and hitting his signature catch-and-spin reverse on the baseline... Only MJ pulls out sophisticated moves like that in the clutch - the defense has no idea where he'll catch the ball and they only have a second to react once he does.. the biggest boss ever with the ball in his hands... The authority that he approaches the rim with is unmatched

[Da_Realist]

Something that popped in my head while watching this series, especially the Jordan/Magic battle is we always here about Magic and Jordan were equals on offense, but Jordan was a lockdown defender so he's just the better player.

On paper it makes sense. A lot of sense.

But in this player comparison, MJ's defense had no effect on Magic. He was still out there being Magic Johnson being defended by Jordan.

If Magics offense was so good that MJ's defense couldn't mitigate it at least somewhat, why does MJ's defense get brought up in this discussion when debating between the two as players?

I think it's a simplistic way to compare the two players. However to answer your question...the Lakers would never have Magic be the primary defender on MJ for a reason.

[Da_Realist]

Any thoughts on MJ's playmaking? I believe he out-assisted Magic through the first 4 games.

[light]

Any thoughts on MJ's playmaking? I believe he out-assisted Magic through the first 4 games.

He did because he was trying to win an individual assist competition with Magic, but he is not naturally awesome like that. It's not MJ's game to put up 36 points and 12 assists on a regular basis like he did in game 1 (that was in fact the only time Jordan put up 36/12 in a playoff game).

For some reason MJ only forced himself to be better when he was motivated by his rivalry with Magic (in 1989 and in the 1991 Finals), otherwise he would default to ball hog with Phil Jackson yelling at him to pass to the open teammate.

[Da_Realist]

He did because he was trying to win an individual assist competition with Magic, but he is not naturally awesome like that. It's not MJ's game to put up 36 points and 12 assists on a regular basis like he did in game 1 (that was in fact the only time Jordan put up 36/12 in a playoff game).

For some reason MJ only forced himself to be better when he was motivated by his rivalry with Magic (in 1989 and in the 1991 Finals), otherwise he would default to ball hog with Phil Jackson yelling at him to pass to the open teammate.

He had 33 and 13 the very next game...

Plus he had twelve 30+ points 10+ assists playoff games not including the 1991 Finals. He had fifteen total. Included in this total are three 40+ 10+ playoff games (none of them were in the 91 Finals). Just missing the cut were two Finals games where he posted 39 and 10+... and four more playoff games where he posted 40+ and 9 assists.

[Carbine]

Magic controls the game with his passing, Michael doesn't control the game in that way. He wants to control the game with his scoring. His playmaking is still very good, no question about it. He just didn't have that ability to park his ass in the post and run his game from their when the drives and outside shot weren't falling quite yet at this stage of his career. I think he got quite a bit stronger in his years afterwards, especially 2nd 3peat.

This version of Magic could just bully you in the post and because of his great height and vision with the skill, could create open looks almost at will.

[Carbine]

I have a hard time thinking this was prime MJ.

He certainly may have been at his athletic peak at this point as far as explosion, but I think his skills the following year and '93 especially were better while still retaining 99 percent of the athletic ability.

[ThatCoolKid]

I have a hard time thinking this was prime MJ.

He certainly may have been at his athletic peak at this point as far as explosion, but I think his skills the following year and '93 especially were better while still retaining 99 percent of the athletic ability.

Well when you look at the objective data MJ just doesn't quite hold up to his Nike golden boy reputation.

[LostCause]

He had 33 and 13 the very next game...

Plus he had twelve 30+ points 10+ assists playoff games not including the 1991 Finals. He had fifteen total. Included in this total are three 40+ 10+ playoff games (none of them were in the 91 Finals). Just missing the cut were two Finals games where he posted 39 and 10+... and four more playoff games where he posted 40+ and 9 assists.


What was he going for, exactly? Lol

[Indian guy]

I have a hard time thinking this was prime MJ.

He certainly may have been at his athletic peak at this point as far as explosion, but I think his skills the following year and '93 especially were better while still retaining 99 percent of the athletic ability.

Your MJ analysis leaves a lot to be desired, to be honest. You barely dedicate a comment to some of his more dominant games during this run (ECS Games 3&5, ECF Game 2, Finals Game 2). Barely anything on his skill-set besides his triple threat ability early in the 1st round against NYK.

And 1991 MJ is not just prime MJ, it's peak MJ. His best blend of skill, athleticism and mentality. Definitely the version I would pick over any other going into a playoff series. His game becomes more jump shot-dependent after this season and by no means does he retain anywhere close to 99% of his athleticism by 1993. Maybe you were expecting to see more "skills"? More jumpers, more fadeaways, more fancy footwork....but he didn't need that as much in 1991. He was still a beast athletically.

If you are not that impressed by his 31/6/8/52% + dominant advanced statistics playoff run of 1991 - which was statistically his best of the 6 championship runs by far, then you are definitely gonna be less impressed by the following 5.

[tpols]

Your MJ analysis leaves a lot to be desired, to be honest. His skill-set was pretty much set by 1991. Maybe slightly better game management skills and footwork after this point, but nothing major. And by no means does he retain anywhere close to 99% of his athleticism by 1993. Nor is 1991 his peak athletic season. Those would be the late 80's. I do think 1991 is his best blend of skill, athleticism and mentality. Definitely the version I would pick over any other going into a playoff series. His game becomes more jump shot-dependent after this season. Maybe that's what you were hoping to see - more "skills"? More jumpers, more fadeaways, more fancy footwork....but he didn't need that as much in 1991.

If you are not that impressed by his 31/6/8/52% playoff run of 1991 - which was statistically his best of the 6 championship runs and hardly ever had an off night, then you are definitely gonna be less impressed by the following 5.

not only that but he put up 31/11/7 on 125 ORTG in the series he's watching while being the primary defender on magic.

that's absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

[Kblaze8855]

Something that popped in my head while watching this series, especially the Jordan/Magic battle is we always here about Magic and Jordan were equals on offense, but Jordan was a lockdown defender so he's just the better player.

On paper it makes sense. A lot of sense.

But in this player comparison, MJ's defense had no effect on Magic. He was still out there being Magic Johnson being defended by Jordan.

If Magics offense was so good that MJ's defense couldn't mitigate it at least somewhat, why does MJ's defense get brought up in this discussion when debating between the two as players?


Why I’ve been saying for years that on the same floor a lot of the things we use to break players up don’t matter and they end up roughly as effective. You should watch some athletic young magic games next. 91 Magic was still great but around 86 or so when he was still skinny and starting to score more by request of Riley?

That guy was ridiculous. There are better total players when you factor in defense but Magic at his best vs whoever at theirs.....they make about the same impact on a game. He just didn’t play a game many fans can appreciate. Magic scores like a 60s forward in the 90s.

[Da_Realist]

Your MJ analysis leaves a lot to be desired, to be honest. You barely dedicate a comment to some of his more dominant games during this run (ECS Games 3&5, ECF Game 2, Finals Game 2). Barely anything on his skill-set besides his triple threat ability early in the 1st round against NYK.

And 1991 MJ is not just prime MJ, it's peak MJ. His best blend of skill, athleticism and mentality. Definitely the version I would pick over any other going into a playoff series. His game becomes more jump shot-dependent after this season and by no means does he retain anywhere close to 99% of his athleticism by 1993. Maybe you were expecting to see more "skills"? More jumpers, more fadeaways, more fancy footwork....but he didn't need that as much in 1991. He was still a beast athletically.

If you are not that impressed by his 31/6/8/52% + dominant advanced statistics playoff run of 1991 - which was statistically his best of the 6 championship runs by far, then you are definitely gonna be less impressed by the following 5.

I agree with this. If anyone isn't that impressed with this year, they have Almighty-level expectations. This was easily MJ's best run, easily his most versatile in terms of his blend of skill and athleticism as well as what he provided to the team. Also, in my opinion, this was easily the most creative and artistic version of MJ. Especially from the 3rd game vs Detroit through the end of the 91 Finals.

Yet I still want to read his thoughts as he progresses through and gains more perspective over the years coming up.

[Carbine]

Your MJ analysis leaves a lot to be desired, to be honest. You barely dedicate a comment to some of his more dominant games during this run (ECS Games 3&5, ECF Game 2, Finals Game 2). Barely anything on his skill-set besides his triple threat ability early in the 1st round against NYK.

And 1991 MJ is not just prime MJ, it's peak MJ. His best blend of skill, athleticism and mentality. Definitely the version I would pick over any other going into a playoff series. His game becomes more jump shot-dependent after this season and by no means does he retain anywhere close to 99% of his athleticism by 1993. Maybe you were expecting to see more "skills"? More jumpers, more fadeaways, more fancy footwork....but he didn't need that as much in 1991. He was still a beast athletically.

If you are not that impressed by his 31/6/8/52% + dominant advanced statistics playoff run of 1991 - which was statistically his best of the 6 championship runs by far, then you are definitely gonna be less impressed by the following 5.

First of all I've been plenty fair to Jordan. I mentioned his fantastic game 2, but also gave credit to other payers as well in the same game. I specifically mentioned Jordan along with 3 other Bulls as to the reason why game 2 was a comfortable win.

[Carbine]

not only that but he put up 31/11/7 on 125 ORTG in the series he's watching while being the primary defender on magic.

that's absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

Being the primary defender on Magic would mean something if he actually made it tough for Magic. If he did what Iggy did to LeBron in the finals, sure that would be an amazing feat. That's not what happened in this series.

[tpols]

Being the primary defender on Magic would mean something if he actually made it tough for Magic. If he did what Iggy did to LeBron in the finals, sure that would be an amazing feat. That's not what happened in this series.

i dont think anybody can stop magic johnson... you're right his numbers are identical pretty much vs MJ or any of the other 3 teams he saw beforehand.

Still... offense alone... MJ was getting basically the same amount of assists as magic, but 30+ ppg on better efficiency to magic's 18 ppg.

How can we consider that equal?

[Kblaze8855]

Magic is a hard guy to judge such a thing on. Magic doesn’t tend to be shut down because you really have to double him to prevent scoring off his size, touch, and strength....but you can’t double him because he’s got the best court vision in history. And on the move he’s a freight train. Magic was a lot harder to stop than the sum of his perceived skills makes it seem. He spent so long playing guard while oversized and without great handles he was a master of protecting the ball and taking advantage when you overplayed.

He was just a handful. No one player stops Magic from being Magic. You just hope he has some mental errors.

[Carbine]

I agree with this. If anyone isn't that impressed with this year, they have Almighty-level expectations. This was easily MJ's best run, easily his most versatile in terms of his blend of skill and athleticism as well as what he provided to the team. Also, in my opinion, this was easily the most creative and artistic version of MJ. Especially from the 3rd game vs Detroit through the end of the 91 Finals.

Yet I still want to read his thoughts as he progresses through and gains more perspective over the years coming up.

Nowhere did I say I wasn't impressed. This run overall has been great for MJ but he has had some long stretches of ineffective play, missing clutch shots (also making them too) that honestly I can't put over any number of playoff runs I've seen over the last 20 years. It's in the category of some of the best I've seen, but Kawhi's for example is just as good as this one.

I remember '03 Duncan as well. Just as good, probably better. Shaq for sure. Lebron.... maybe 1 Kobe run. Hakeem has 2 of them. I wasn't around pre 90's runs but it's probably safe to assume Bird/Magic has a couple.

'91 Jordans in that group, but it blends in with the rest, it doesn't stand out.

[Carbine]

i dont think anybody can stop magic johnson... you're right his numbers are identical pretty much vs MJ or any of the other 3 teams he saw beforehand.

Still... offense alone... MJ was getting basically the same amount of assists as magic, but 30+ ppg on better efficiency to magic's 18 ppg.

How can we consider that equal?

I don't judge a player off box scores. Go watch the games for yourself, Magic's offensive impact went far beyond 18ppg. The most unstoppable move in this series is Magic post ups. They either get a great look and miss or score a mind boggling number of times off it.

[Da_Realist]

Nowhere did I say I wasn't impressed. This run overall has been great for MJ but he has had some long stretches of ineffective play, missing clutch shots (also making them too) that honestly I can't put over any number of playoff runs I've seen over the last 20 years. It's in the category of some of the best I've seen, but Kawhi's for example is just as good as this one.

I remember '03 Duncan as well. Just as good, probably better. Shaq for sure. Lebron.... maybe 1 Kobe run. Hakeem has 2 of them. I wasn't around pre 90's runs but it's probably safe to assume Bird/Magic has a couple.

'91 Jordans in that group, but it blends in with the rest, it doesn't stand out.

Ok. Your opinion is your opinion and this is what this thread is about, not my opinion. Still looking forward to further thoughts and analysis. :cheers:

[3ball]

Your MJ analysis leaves a lot to be desired, to be honest. You barely dedicate a comment to some of his more dominant games during this run (ECS Games 3&5, ECF Game 2, Finals Game 2). Barely anything on his skill-set besides his triple threat ability early in the 1st round against NYK.

And 1991 MJ is not just prime MJ, it's peak MJ. His best blend of skill, athleticism and mentality. Definitely the version I would pick over any other going into a playoff series. His game becomes more jump shot-dependent after this season and by no means does he retain anywhere close to 99% of his athleticism by 1993. Maybe you were expecting to see more "skills"? More jumpers, more fadeaways, more fancy footwork....but he didn't need that as much in 1991. He was still a beast athletically.

If you are not that impressed by his 31/6/8/52% + dominant advanced statistics playoff run of 1991 - which was statistically his best of the 6 championship runs by far, then you are definitely gonna be less impressed by the following 5.

Let's face it

If you think this loser is actually watching the games you're slipping

He isn't.. this thread is a troll

His commentary on the games is a joke and usually inaccurate.. MJ is dominating more than anyone ever has, yet this fool barely mentions it and usually backhand slaps one of the greatest performances ever instead.. Jordan destroyed a top 5 all-time player yet he's barely mentioning HOW

[Indian guy]

First of all I've been plenty fair to Jordan. I mentioned his fantastic game 2, but also gave credit to other payers as well in the same game. I specifically mentioned Jordan along with 3 other Bulls as to the reason why game 2 was a comfortable win.

You literally lumped MJ's historically great game 2 of the Finals where he had 33/13 on 15-18 FG with the rest of the team in 1 line. He absolutely dominated that game.

He had 46 points in Game 3 against Philly while hobbling and literally the only thing you mentioned was his missed FTs in the clutch

You have talked 10x more about whatever shortcomings he has had defensively :rolleyes:. I don't know what type of expectations you went into this playoff run with, but your analysis doesn't come off very balanced.

[1987_Lakers]

Let's face it

If you think this loser is actually watching the games you're slipping

He isn't.. this thread is a troll

His commentary on the games is a joke and usually inaccurate.. MJ is dominating more than anyone ever has, yet this fool barely mentions it and usually backhand slaps one of the greatest performances ever instead.. Jordan destroyed a top 5 all-time player yet he's barely mentioning HOW

Someone is having a meltdown. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Someone is having a meltdown. :oldlol:

It isn't a meltdown, you're just uncreative and can't say anything else

Why wouldn't he say HOW jordan is decimating a top 5 all-time player on the biggest stage - Magic was the modern goat at the time.

You think it's a coincidence that MJ nearly matched Magic in assists? MJ wanted to beat Magic at his strength and almost did... He did beat Magic at passing because the 91' Finals was the first time anyone averaged 10+ apg without playing PG or bringing the ball up, aka goat passing

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lol @ this half-baked analysis.

"Nah man. Jordan was ordinary in 1991. He must have been better YEARS later." :lol

This is probably 'Roundball_Rock' looking for another way to denigrate Jordan.

[Carbine]

It's be funny to watch one of these games with 3ball and hear his thoughts as Magic bully's Jordan in the post again.... And again.... And again.

Jordan just had a great defensive possession on Teagle forcing a junk shot, then got an easy layup on the other end.

Magic is on the bench btw

[1987_Lakers]

It isn't a meltdown, you're just uncreative and can't say anything else

Why wouldn't he say HOW jordan is decimating a top 5 all-time player on the biggest stage - Magic was the modern goat at the time.

You think it's a coincidence that MJ nearly matched Magic in assists? MJ wanted to beat Magic at his strength and almost did... He did beat Magic at passing because the 91' Finals was the first time anyone averaged 10+ apg without playing PG or bringing the ball up, aka goat passing

You just personally attacked another user over his analysis of basketball game(s), it's a meltdown.

[tpols]

You literally lumped MJ's historically great game 2 of the Finals where he had 33/13 on 15-18 FG with the rest of the team in 1 line. He absolutely dominated that game.

He had 46 points in Game 3 against Philly while hobbling and literally the only thing you mentioned was his missed FTs in the clutch

You have talked 10x more about whatever shortcomings he has had defensively :rolleyes:. I don't know what type of expectations you went into this playoff run with, but your analysis doesn't come off very balanced.

he's basically watching from an angle of MJ bad teammates good to sum it up consicely.

like a last dance contrarian call for attention critique.

[Phoenix]

Being the primary defender on Magic would mean something if he actually made it tough for Magic. If he did what Iggy did to LeBron in the finals, sure that would be an amazing feat. That's not what happened in this series.

Magic could score 5 points in a game and you didn't stop him. You look at the assist column and he's got like 17 assists and 3 other players all have 20 points, a good portion off his dimes.

Lebron dropped 36/13/9 on Iggy, albeit on low efficiency. You look at those numbers and he actually let Iggy off the hook because he wasnt punishing him out of the post like Magic could. If Lebron actually had the post game( at Magics level) or the aptitude to consistently get down there and use his size, athleticism and ambidextrous ability that may have been an even more interesting series.

[3ball]

You just personally attacked another user over his analysis of basketball game(s), it's a meltdown.

It's fair because lying is bad and wastes people's time.. that's an egregious offense and I'm right for calling it out.. name-calling is nothing by comparison so your bias shows here

[Phoenix]

I did note that the game 2 when he went off for like 13 shots in a row seemed mostly glossed over and blended in with everything else. If there was one moment to recognize the level MJ was on when firing on all cylinders, that would have been it.

[Carbine]

You literally lumped MJ's historically great game 2 of the Finals where he had 33/13 on 15-18 FG with the rest of the team in 1 line. He absolutely dominated that game.

He had 46 points in Game 3 against Philly while hobbling and literally the only thing you mentioned was his missed FTs in the clutch

You have talked 10x more about whatever shortcomings he has had defensively :rolleyes:. I don't know what type of expectations you went into this playoff run with, but your analysis doesn't come off very balanced.

I think if you reread this thread and note the times I have talked about Jordans defense, it's overwhelmingly positive. He just can't do anything with Magic, no shame in that.

Regarding his game 2, the reason I clumped those guys together is because those other guys get lost in the shuffle. I've known about MJs game 2 for awhile but had no clue that those other 3 guys went a combined 24/30.

Like I said, those four guys were the reason they won easily. Michael was the best of the bunch, but 24/30 is one of the best "supporting cast" performances ever in a finals game offensively. It was definitely worth mentioning. It doesn't diminish Jordan, it elevates how good these Bulls were.

[Kblaze8855]

lol @ this half-baked analysis.

"Nah man. Jordan was ordinary in 1991. He must have been better YEARS later." :lol

This is probably 'Roundball_Rock' looking for another way to denigrate Jordan.


Nah carbine has been around since ezboard. Like 15 years. He posted on my other board for a good 10 years. He was a bumbling center I still insisted on giving the ball on our old nba 2k crew teams 9-10 years ago. In all the madden leagues. I won’t say I “know” him know him....but I know him a bit.

[3ball]

I think if you reread this thread and note the times I have talked about Jordans defense, it's overwhelmingly positive. He just can't do anything with Magic, no shame in that.

Regarding his game 2, the reason I clumped those guys together is because those other guys get lost in the shuffle. I've known about MJs game 2 for awhile but had no clue that those other 3 guys went a combined 24/30.

Like I said, those four guys were the reason they won easily. Michael was the best of the bunch, but 24/30 is one of the best "supporting cast" performances ever in a finals game offensively. It was definitely worth mentioning. It doesn't diminish Jordan, it elevates how good these Bulls were.

MJ locked up Magic in the Game 3 OT and Magic shot 40% for the series with only 19 ppg - he underperformed his regular season numbers

So mj did pretty well and you're completely exaggerating by acting like Magic was dominating - he wasn't dominant in this series, which is why his team got starched

And why wouldn't you discuss how MJ locked up Magic in the OT? And why not talk about how MJ's goat passing helped blow the Lakers away? Only MJ averaged 10+ apg without playing PG or bringing the ball up

And why not expose the false narrative and say that it's mostly MJ guarding Magic?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nah carbine has been around since ezboard. Like 15 years. He posted on my other board for a good 10 years. He was a bumbling center I still insisted on giving the ball on our old nba 2k crew teams 9-10 years ago. In all the madden leagues. I won’t say I “know” him know him....but I know him a bit.

Whoever the guy is, his take on Jordan is wack. Rambles on about teammates when everyone who watched Jordan in that Game 2 knew that was HIS game. With his imprint. There's a 40-point performance in that 91 run he also 'analyzes'. Yet only mentioned the shots Jordan missed lol. All of that just to say there's nothing 'really special' about Jordan. Right...

I've been here long enough to know where this is going.

[3ball]

It's be funny to watch one of these games with 3ball and hear his thoughts as Magic bully's Jordan in the post again.... And again.... And again.

Jordan just had a great defensive possession on Teagle forcing a junk shot, then got an easy layup on the other end.

Magic is on the bench btw

Magic wasn't dominant in this series and struggled mightily

If he was abusing MJ on the block every time, the Lakers would've blown out the bulls

You're just taking a few possessions and lying about the rest

[Indian guy]

I think if you reread this thread and note the times I have talked about Jordans defense, it's overwhelmingly positive. He just can't do anything with Magic, no shame in that.

Whether it's positive or negative is really not relevant. I'm just confused by why you are spending so much time talking about his defense than anything else. Individual defense, particularly on the perimeter, isn't anywhere close to as important or impactful as good offense on the other end of the floor. We have the GOAT scorer doing his thing and the most you'll ever mention about his play on that end is a banal line like "oh MJ played well".


Regarding his game 2, the reason I clumped those guys together is because those other guys get lost in the shuffle.

This is literally all you had to say about one of the greatest games in Finals history:

The reason this game was comfortable in hand was four Bulls made like 35 shots and missed just 6. Cartwright, Paxton, MJ and Horace were incredibly efficient in this one.

That's it :oldlol:

Yes, it's nice that some freaking role players made a bunch of open shots and layups, but this was MJ's signature game on a must-win night for the Bulls. He dominated from get-go. But why talk about that when you can talk about role players :rolleyes:

[Carbine]

MJ locked up Magic in the Game 3 OT and Magic shot 40% for the series with only 19 ppg - he underperformed his regular season numbers

So mj did pretty well and you're completely exaggerating by acting like Magic was dominating - he wasn't dominant in this series, which is why his team got starched

And why wouldn't you discuss how MJ locked up Magic in the OT? And why not talk about how MJ's goat passing helped blow the Lakers away? Only MJ averaged 10+ apg without playing PG or bringing the ball up

Im going to chart everything of Magics offense and Jordans defense for you in this OT

- Magic runs over Levingstone on the following Fastbreak following getting a steal off Jordan.

- Johnson missed wide open 3 off offensive rebound

- Johnson penetrated, dished to Perkins for a layup and he missed

Magic misses 3 pt over Horace Grant


It really makes me question if you even watch this game. This particular thing isn't an opinion, its pretty clear cut that Jordan really had nothing to do with Magic in the OT. All of Magics "bad" plays Jordan wasn't even guarding him, lol

[1987_Lakers]

Im going to chart everything of Magics offense and Jordans defense for you in this OT

- Magic runs over Levingstone on the following Fastbreak following getting a steal off Jordan.

- Johnson missed wide open 3 off offensive rebound

- Johnson penetrated, dished to Perkins for a layup and he missed

Magic misses 3 pt over Horace Grant


It really makes me question if you even watch this game. This particular thing isn't an opinion, its pretty clear cut that Jordan really had nothing to do with Magic in the OT. All of Magics "bad" plays Jordan wasn't even guarding him, lol

:oldlol:

Byron Scott's poor play in this series also deserves some mention. 35 mpg on 5 ppg with 28% shooting is all-time bad. I've seen a bunch of 80's Lakers games and one thing that jumped out to me is how poor he played on the road vs Boston in all those Finals series, I specifically remember Pat Riley always going with Michael Cooper in the lineup instead of Scott in crunch time vs Boston in '87.

[3ball]

Im going to chart everything of Magics offense and Jordans defense for you in this OT

- Magic runs over Levingstone on the following Fastbreak following getting a steal off Jordan.

- Johnson missed wide open 3 off offensive rebound

- Johnson penetrated, dished to Perkins for a layup and he missed

Magic misses 3 pt over Horace Grant


It really makes me question if you even watch this game. This particular thing isn't an opinion, its pretty clear cut that Jordan really had nothing to do with Magic in the OT. All of Magics "bad" plays Jordan wasn't even guarding him, lol

So MJ stopped Magic on 3 or 4 possessions?

How does that not make my point?

[Indian guy]

This wasn't a good overall game for MJ. He was particularly bad in the second half..... it was a frustrating game for him on both sides. He couldn't stop Magic from doing what he wanted and he couldn't get much going on the other end. Until the end, when the team needed it most - I think this is what encapsulated Jordan. He was having his worst offensive stretch of the post season.... but he made the game tying shot, and closed it out in the overtime.

We remember those moments. Not how ineffective he was up until that point.


Here's another gem. Notice how much more time you spend talking about about his off night than his good ones. And I like how you just casually say "closed it out in overtime". It was a 1 possession game throughout the last 2-3 minutes of OT and MJ made one big play after another to put the game away. Majority of 'em being quick, explosive drives to the basket. Where are the details? Or any mention of MJ's talents/skills? But hey, do tell us more about his defense. That's where he was leading Bulls to titles after all.

[3ball]

.
Game 3 OT


Here's Jordan preventing Magic from doing anything on the first possession of OT:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=06m23s


Here's MJ pushing Magic from behind on the break causing the turnover:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=06m44s


Here's Jordan preventing Magic from doing anything later in the OT:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=06m58s


Here's Jordan preventing Magic from doing anything later in the OT:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=08m15s

[Phoenix]

In fairness to OP, his comments had a bit more meat to them in the beginning (not overly analytical but longer posts) but doing an entire playoff run is quite the undertaking and we're only on the first of six. Not surprised the posts are beginning to have a 'run out of gas' feel to them the last few days. I thought about doing something similar but taking a particular series instead. The 2011 series is often a point of contention on the board, that may be a fun one to revisit. Same with the 2006 finals because of the complaints with foul calls.

[3ball]

In fairness to OP, his comments had a bit more meat to them in the beginning (not overly analytical but longer posts) but doing an entire playoff run is quite the undertaking and we're only on the first of six. Not surprised the posts are beginning to have a 'run out of gas' feel to them the last few days. I thought about doing something similar but taking a particular series instead. The 2011 series is often a point of contention on the board, that may be a fun one to revisit. Same with the 2006 finals because of the complaints with foul calls.

Run out of gas for what?... hiding his true intentions?... :yaohappy:.. :roll:

That's what happened

Since his initial posts, his posts are anti-jordan and over-magnifying role player performance.. rinse repeat

[Phoenix]

Run out of gas doing what?... hiding his true intentions?

All his recent posts are basically anti-jordan and over-magnifying role player performance

Regardless of the tone and intent they're generally getting shorter, more surface level comments than anything in depth no matter whether it's about MJ or anything else. More like 'MJ struggled in this one', 'his teammates were good in this'. That's not saying much one way or another.

Just my impression anyway.:confusedshrug:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Run out of gas doing what?... hiding his true intentions?

That's what happened

Since his initial posts, his posts are anti-jordan and over-magnifying role player performance.. rinse repeat
Funny when people actually objectively watch the games they come out thinking Jordan is vastly overrated, while his teammates are vastly underrated

We've been saying this forever. Carbine is doing God's work because he's always been an honest poster with no real agenda. As he watches the next few years it will be more and more obvious to him just how overrated Jordan is... he's not even to the meat of it yet.

:cheers:

[3ball]

Funny when people actually objectively watch the games they come out thinking Jordan is vastly overrated, while his teammates are vastly underrated

We've been saying this forever. Carbine is doing God's work because he's always been an honest poster with no real agenda. As the years go on in will be more and more obvious to him just how overrated Jordan js... he's not even to the meat of it yet.

:cheers:

^^^ And the truth comes out - this thread is loved by full-blown Jordan-haters... :facepalm:

God's work Carbine!!!

The reality is that lebron fans accept jordan as a legit goat candidate, while jordan fans reject any goat consideration for another pretender like lebron.. we've seen it many times before.. only Kobe made us scratch our heads for a second

Btw, young fans associate "good" with long-dribbling - if a guy scores quickly and easily like Mike, you can't appreciate - you infact don't see what he's doing... So it must suck enjoying the game on an entirely lower level than MJ fans

[Carbine]

It's basketball. These guys aren't my hero's, what else do you want me to say besides closed the game out.

Isn't closing the game out pretty much the eptimome of offensive basketball? If youre looking for specific details on specific moves of these runs, look elsewhere.

I'm watching this to understand the Bulls dynasty. To watch Jordan as well, to see if Pippens "GOAT" defender label is deserved from my vantage point. To see details such as supporting cast going 24/30 in the biggest game of the season to that point.

If I wanted to know how many points he scored I could look at box scores.

This is an honest assessment of everyone on the Bulls. Why each game was won or lost. Jordan will be a big topic because he's the best player, naturally.

Like I said, I think Jordan is the GOAT but it's also fair to point out the "myth" is a little exaggerated. He DID have down games, unclutch moments, etc that are part of the story as well.

[AlternativeAcc.]

^^^ And the truth comes out - this thread is loved by full-blown Jordan-haters... :facepalm:

God's work Carbine!!!

The reality is that lebron fans accept jordan as a legit goat candidate, while jordan fans reject any goat consideration for another pretender like lebron.. we've seen it many times before.. only Kobe made us scratch our heads for a second

Btw, young fans associate "good" with long-dribbling - if a guy scores quickly and easily like Mike, you can't appreciate - you infact don't see what he's doing... So it must suck enjoying the game on an entirely lower level than MJ fans

Carbine doesn't have a horse in the race. He's candidly reporting what he sees.

When you take away the fluff and media hype and just analyze the games for what they are, you realize that the Bulls were winning because they had stacked teams relarive to the comp. Pippen was a winner who made winning momentum plays every game, his intangibles don't show up in the stat sheet. (Which is why you desperately cherry pick his scoring stats in a vacuum)

You were on Carbines dick early in this thread when he had some nice things to say about Jordan. Now you're acting like a spoiled child who didn't get enough gifts on Christmas attacking a guy whose always been agenda less and honest. He's not even bashing Jordan, he's just giving credit to the Bulls other players like everyone who objectively watches the games would do.

You're salty your lies and gimmicks are being destroyed

:hammertime:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

supporting cast going 24/30 in the biggest game of the season to that point.





Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


^^^^ Jordan had the lowest-scoring casts ever, so pointing out one-offs is pretty dumb... Isn't it?






supporting cast going 24/30 in the biggest game of the season to that point.



Paxson, Grant and Cartwright weren't super-talented - so 24-30 efficiency means they mastered the system and goat brand of basketball - it doesn't mean they were secretly all-star caliber but the media hid it...

And their ability to play in the system is ALLOWED by Jordan accepting the offense and being skilled enough to score goat amounts in the system.. If MJ can't get 30+ in that system - the bulls don't win... So mj's skill was the lynchpin for everything..






He DID have down games, unclutch moments, etc that are part of the story as well



You fear that people think he never missed a shot?

That's why you're watching all the games?... To show that MJ missed shots too?... Everyone knows that already...

But the reality is that MJ's clutch dominance is unmatched in history - no one is close...

For example - in the last 5 minutes of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), lebron shot 41% on 3.0 attempts per game from 04-18', compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' Jordan... So a big gap..






the "myth" is a little exaggerated




6/6 and the best clutch we've ever seen isn't an exaggeration

6 rings in 11 full seasons - not a myth

5 more ppg than everyone in playoff history, on better efficiency per possession than any wing ever - not a myth (edit: 4 more than AI)






the "myth" is a little exaggerated


.
Since your entire objective was to expose the "myth", there's no chance you've been watching all the games - you already have your agenda... Exposed..

[ArbitraryWater]

surely mods should prevent 3ball from clogging up this thread, right?

[Indian guy]

what else do you want me to say besides closed the game out.

What's the point of saying anything then? Nobody's in this thread for stellar analysis like "he played well" and "they shot well". We can gather that just by looking at the boxscore. The whole point of this thread is to look beyond the boxscore. Skill-sets, athleticism, defense, offensive systems. That's what we are looking for. And part of that is capturing how someone fared in big moments. If a player is going to take over the last 3 minutes of OT by either scoring or assisting on 10 straight points in a tie game, then it SHOULD be mentioned. Someone going 33/13 on 15-18 FG in a must-win game should be mentioned. Someone scoring 46 points should be mentioned.


Like I said, I think Jordan is the GOAT but it's also fair to point out the "myth" is a little exaggerated.

And there we go. The primary reason for this thread.

I guess come Game 5 of the Finals, we should be prepared for Paxson bailing MJ out and how he should've really been Finals MVP.

[Carbine]

You're more than welcome to not reply to the thread Mr. Indian

The reason for the thread is to educate myself, form my own opinions by watching the games. I'm sure people will still spew this nonsense of "Pippen shutting down Magic" in the finals and how that was the changing point of the series. **** I bought into it because I heard it so much...... but now I know what actually happened. I had no idea Cartwright was such a solid low post scorer, now I know. Vlade has shown me things I never assumed he could do..... he was an excellent player.


Game 4 was interesting. Someone mentioned here earlier how awful Byron Scott was, and boy has he ever been a no show. He cannot buy a bucket so far through 4 games, he is shooting damn near 20 percent. Pretty awful considering the quality of shots he gets to take.

And Perkins, was 1-15 this game I do believe. He was great in the first bit of this series but this game was such a massive stinker for him. It's why I find it obnoxious for people to gloss over these facts, they're such a big part of why a game was won or lost. Unfortunately or the Lakers, two of their best role players didn't show up whatsoever in a pivotal game and were HUGE negatives. Worthy going out of the game with his injury changed the complexion of the game.

Jordan had an excellent defensive sequence in a 9 pt game with 3-4 minutes to go in the game, making a nice help block from behind. He played a very steady game, something that I have noticed with his footwork that he changed at some point later in his career is the footwork on his fade over the right shoulder. His left foot is kicked out further on the flight of his jump where later on in his career his right foot became the "guide" foot.

[3ball]

And there we go. The primary reason for this thread.

I guess come Game 5 of the Finals, we should be prepared for Paxson bailing MJ out and how he should've really been Finals MVP.




:oldlol:.. his own words

"I want to dispel MJ myths"

He was more honest saying that than his game "reviews"

[Carbine]

My own words? I said that?

Is that what people do here? Take a quote, distort it into something entirely different, and say you word for word said it?

Lol. Wtf?

[Carbine]

Vlade was such a skilled player. He did something in this game I didn't think he had in him. A rebound, coast to coast dribbling around defenders into a reverse lay up. He made it but the time expires on the end of quarter.

Game 5 was a great defensive performance by Jordan, with help from Pippen. Jordan had pass deflects that directly led to easy fast break buckets, steals, etc. So did Pippen, especially in the third. probably 5 impact defensive plays the directly lead to easy hoops between those two.

This was a bad game for Magic. So many unforced turnovers to go along with Jordan getting one of his tip deflections off him as well.

It's a tight game heading into the fourth. Last quarter of this playoff.

[Micku]

What in the world are you talking about?

Jordan's career usage rate is 33.3% compared to LeBrons's 31.5%

Just for giggles, MJ's TOV% is 9.3 to LeBron's 13.1.

Jordan had the ball more often and committed fewer turnovers.


I don't know if anybody commented on this or not.
But Usage rate does not mean you have the ball more. It indicates how often the team offense run through you. It's based FGA, FTA, and TOV relative to the team's FGA, FTA and TOV. Again, it doesn't mean he holds the ball more than another player. It's a common misunderstanding of that stat. Even analysis on TV does it. But it does not mean player touches of the ball.

This is the formula:
100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)).

It's shot creation relative to the team than touching the ball. You can see many examples of this and even look at some stats yourself. The nba.com I think have stats that do time of possession, and that's what you use. Not usage rate.

[Carbine]

Magic really started playing well with his playmaking in the fourth. That was vintage Magic.

I have a new respect for Paxton. I've always thought of him as a replaceable league average type player. He's so solid, tough defensively and just one of the best shooting displays from a role player I've seen for an entire playoff run. He was deadeye, I wouldn't be surprised if he shot close to 70 percent this series.

This is why I watch this stuff. I had no idea Paxton was the one who broke this game open and basically closed it in the fourth Q. He was like 5/5 or 6/6 in this fourth quarter.

Pippen was back to his 1B type offensive ways this game too. Jordan was steady as ever, leading with his defense and efficient offense.

One thing on Jordan. His athletisicm gets talked about enough, but one part of his athletic ability that doesn't get talked about near enough is his flexibility. He is able to get so low on his drives while maintaining balance at his height is exceptionally rare.

This Bulls team was a squad. No doubt about it.

[Micku]

Magic really started playing well with his playmaking in the fourth. That was vintage Magic.

I have a new respect for Paxton. I've always thought of him as a replaceable league average type player. He's so solid, tough defensively and just one of the best shooting displays from a role player I've seen for an entire playoff run. He was deadeye, I wouldn't be surprised if he shot close to 70 percent this series.

This is why I watch this stuff. I had no idea Paxton was the one who broke this game open and basically closed it in the fourth Q. He was like 5/5 or 6/6 in this fourth quarter.

Pippen was back to his 1B type offensive ways this game too. Jordan was steady as ever, leading with his defense and efficient offense.

One thing on Jordan. His athletisicm gets talked about enough, but one part of his athletic ability that doesn't get talked about near enough is his flexibility. He is able to get so low on his drives while maintaining balance at his height is exceptionally rare.

This Bulls team was a squad. No doubt about it.

Paxson was on fire all series if I can recall. Dude was a sharpshooter that series.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Magic really started playing well with his playmaking in the fourth. That was vintage Magic.

I have a new respect for Paxton. I've always thought of him as a replaceable league average type player. He's so solid, tough defensively and just one of the best shooting displays from a role player I've seen for an entire playoff run. He was deadeye, I wouldn't be surprised if he shot close to 70 percent this series.

This is why I watch this stuff. I had no idea Paxton was the one who broke this game open and basically closed it in the fourth Q. He was like 5/5 or 6/6 in this fourth quarter.

Pippen was back to his 1B type offensive ways this game too. Jordan was steady as ever, leading with his defense and efficient offense.

One thing on Jordan. His athletisicm gets talked about enough, but one part of his athletic ability that doesn't get talked about near enough is his flexibility. He is able to get so low on his drives while maintaining balance at his height is exceptionally rare.

This Bulls team was a squad. No doubt about it.
They only get better as the years go on

Stacked beyond belief.

[Micku]

They only get better as the years go on

Stacked beyond belief.

I disagree that they were stacked beyond belief. Imo, that was like the 80s Lakers, 76ers or Celts. They were more unproven at the time, but they did have talent and a well oiled machine.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I disagree that they were stacked beyond belief. Imo, that was like the 80s Lakers, 76ers or Celts. They were more unproven at the time, but they did have talent and a well oiled machine.

It's all relative to the comp, those 80s teams you mentioned competed with each other.

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at how MJ stans went from hailing the thread and OP to vilifying him.

The OP doesn't appear to have an agenda. Yeah he is critical of MJ at times but so what? He criticizes other Bulls too, like Pippen and Grant for example. If you are going to watch every single playoff game you are going to see duds from any player. MJ may be GOAT but he didn't walk on water. No need to crucify the guy for providing commentary based on his observations.


It's all relative to the comp, those 80s teams you mentioned competed with each other.

That is what always gets ignored. The early 80's had the Lakers, Celtics, Sixers as great teams. When the Sixers faded the Pistons emerged to take their place. When the Celtics faded the Bulls emerged. In the 90's when the Pistons faded no team emerged to replace them nor did a team emerge to replace the Lakers (who, unlike the Bulls without MJ, sucked without Magic). So the Bulls stood alone the entire run. No other all-time great team had that luxury. Even the 60's Celtics faced the 67' Sixers, who are universally considered an all-time great team.

[Phoenix]

Where are we with this, OP? Have you started the 92 run yet?

[Carbine]

Game 1 vs Heat

I love this Jordan. I think he's stronger, skills are sharper and he can still do whatever he wants athletically. To me this is as good as he has looked since I've been watching these games.

He really carries this game throughout. I don't think the rest of the team was nearly as hungry as they were last year. It felt like the team treated this game as a regular season game, whereas MJ was taking this like he never won a championship last year.

Pippens individual defense was again suspect. He got cooked in the first half, although he did have a couple nice defensive moments.

One guy that looks like he has declined from last year is Cartwright.

Paxton is banging every open shot. He has to cool off eventually right?

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippens individual defense was again suspect. He got cooked in the first half, although he did have a couple nice defensive moments.

Tough grader, eh? Glen Rice, Miami's #1 option, was held to 7 for 20 (35%) for 17 points in that game. What more do you expect? For perspective, his season average was 22 PPG on 18 shots (47%).

[Carbine]

I've never been a numbers guy. If a dude shoots a lay up beating Pippen from the perimeter, but misses it.. its not because of Pippen.

Id have some words with someone telling me they shut me down while I blow by him but missed my lay up or pull up jumper. Nah bro, you didn't do shit, I just missed the shot.

Or like 3Ball was yapping about in 91 finals overtime when he said Jordan "shut down" Magic. If Magic shot a wide open uncontested 3 and missed.... How the F is MJ getting credit for that? Lol



That's just an example BTW, not saying this happened for all of his attempts. But Pippens defense was not "lock down" in any way shape or form this game.

[Roundball_Rock]

Got it--makes sense.

The Rice match up is interesting because they would face each other again in 98' so we can compare an early playoff run match up to a late playoff run match up with the same players, both still in their primes.

[Carbine]

This first Q and few minutes of the 2nd Q of game 2 is probably the best you could reasonably expect a perimeter player to play two way basketball. Scottie has been THAT good through the first 14 minutes of this one.

[Carbine]

Jordan gets some extremely questionable calls against him. I noticed this in last year's playoff run as well. It may change in the future but he hasn't been given a "superstar" type whistle. He actually got called for hand checking in game 1 lol

And just got called for an offensive foul on one of the worst calls you'll ever see off the ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan gets some extremely questionable calls against him. I noticed this in last year's playoff run as well. It may change in the future but he hasn't been given a "superstar" type whistle. He actually got called for hand checking in game 1 lol

And just got called for an offensive foul on one of the worst calls you'll ever see off the ball.

Is Hue Hollins reffing? He always was biased against the Bulls.

[Sarcastic]

Why don't you post the games you are watching, so people can know what you're talking about, and not just speaking in a vacuum.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Games I watch of MJ he plays a lot of off the ball for large portions of the game. Nothing wrong with that - but he isn't in the thick of things the way Lebron is to the same extent.

Jordan was a far more elegant and effective player than Lebron. No wasted motion. No need to pound the ball and run countless screen/rolls to generate stat-producing opportunities (scores or assists). Jordan was art.

[Carbine]

Why don't you post the games you are watching, so people can know what you're talking about, and not just speaking in a vacuum.

I have been.

[OldSchoolBBall]

i dont think anybody can stop magic johnson... you're right his numbers are identical pretty much vs MJ or any of the other 3 teams he saw beforehand.

Still... offense alone... MJ was getting basically the same amount of assists as magic, but 30+ ppg on better efficiency to magic's 18 ppg.

How can we consider that equal?

Magic was at 23/8/13/44% FG/22.7 GameScore up until the Finals. The he went 18.6/8/12+/43% FG/20 GameScore in the Finals. A 4 ppg drop and slight efficiency hit is about as good as you're gonna get against a player of Magic's caliber, because you can't hinder his passing game.

[Bawkish]

*spoiler alert*

Game 3

MJ in 1st Q = 2 pts

then some Heat player trash talked MJ because they thought he was having a "bad game"

MJ in 3 quarters = 54 pts

The idiot had just dug their own grave

[Carbine]

Game 3 vs Miami was the classic home team coming out fired up hitting everything back against the wall type game.

As good as Jordan was in game 1, I'm not sure he wasn't better in game 3. He was so dominant, so unstoppable. When he felt the rest of the team wasn't there today, besides Pippen, and they were down a lot after 1Q.... it was his game.

I like Sielkey on Miami. He was a problem all series for the Bulls.

Cartwright has been absolutely awful so far. Armstrong is much more of a factor this post season than last one.

[BigShotBob]

Going to hijack this thread since I know basketball. I'll be taking notes as I go along.

Game 3 vs Miami

Miami started out with a lot of energy, and Chicago was fighting back. One thing the Bulls love to do is to let Pippen go to work one-on-one against a smaller player in the post, which is what they tried to do. Miami had stingy defense though starting out. MJ played a little passive in the opening minutes, setting up his teammates and playing the triangle in general.

Interesting to note is how the Bulls LOVE Full-court pressure. They love it to death. They started off the game with MJ guarding Steve Smith off-ball from end to end, Pippen guarded Brian Shaw from end to end or Glen Rice and then during half-court sets they might switch but if Jordan was on the strong side then Pippen would lurk on the weakside and vice versa. This full-court pressure rattled the Heat in Game 2 which was why the Bulls went with it in Game 3.

The Bulls were notorious for their fast break but they couldn't get it going because Miami's transition defense was on point. An example was Pippen getting hacked in the open floor and going 1/2 from the line (he was a notoriously poor free throw shooter) and Jordan getting a steal couldn't convert a jumpshot because Miami's effort didn't allow him to get the open look that he wanted and he missed it.

Again, Chicago tried to go with Pippen on Rice but Glen Rice wasn't having it and he stopped Pippen dead in his tracks on his attempted post turnaround. Usually the Bulls would have the advantage in that matchup but it seemed as if early it just wasn't working.

This is why Miami jumped out to an 13-5 start over the Bulls (along with Steve Smith hitting a 3 in Jordan's face and then a transition 2)

Pippen after the time-out hit a turn-around jump shot to silence the crowd and give the Bulls some momentum. Again, the Bulls LOVE going to him in the low post or the high post because he is a match-up problem for guards and small forwards alike.

Unfortunately the Heat were extremely motivated. They were not phased by the Bull's full-court pressure and their defense gave them easy transition opportunities.

Grant Long moved around Pippen like he was a traffic cone for an easy lay-up immediately after the Heat hustled for a loose ball. It was all energy and effort.

[BigShotBob]

Steve Smith is a big-time pressure player sometimes. And even as a rookie here you can see it as plain as day. 3 over Jordan, 2 in transition, and an and-one post-up turn-around over John Paxon to balloon the lead to 14 in the first quarter.

Interesting to note, Jordan is scoreless up to this point but he's barely even touched the ball. Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright have been taking all the shots like they have tunnel vision, mostly because that's what worked in previous games but to start it's just not getting it done. By now you would expect a couple of Jordan isos but there wasn't a single one yet.

Start of the 2nd and Miami went to full-court press. Hilariously cheeky move but it can work to help maintain the lead. Unfortunately it can also tire out your players severely.

Pippen checkout out of the game after making a couple of free throws and this freed Jordan up to be well.....Jordan. Iso two times, two quick jumpshots and you could tell that he was feeling it.

Note: I love BJ Armstrong over Paxon. He is an excellent example of a tempo manager. He pushes the ball up the floor every chance he gets and the Bulls look a lot more fierce when he is the point guard. After a Jordan block he raced down the floor and hit an and-one lay-up over Grant Long. John Paxon could never.

I must say Jordan in the open court is an absolute pleasure to watch. He starts with making a straight shot for the basket, then he goes behind his back, then he crosses over, hops and dunks with two hands all in traffic and all after a steal that he made. There just isn't anyone quite like him. I'm glad that I'm able to appreciate him now instead of mindlessly hate him since I was a Pistons fan.

At this point it's just a five point game and it's because the Bulls are all-time at turning defense into offense at the flick of a wrist. They are never out of a game because of it no matter the line-up (as long as Pippen, or Jordan, or both are in).

Near the end of the first half. I'll finish up my analysis later.

To Be Continued.....

[Carbine]

I marked him for 12 total points off traditional post up entries the '91 run, I'm sure they loved to do that in the future but it wasn't a thing for the first run. He was mostly the guy making the entry pass, not the one receiving it for '91 run

[Carbine]

Game 1 vs Knicks

First off, Mason was Draymond before Draymond. That guy is so quick on his feet for his build.

This game really came down to 2 things and something that's been very noticeable so far this playoff run - the supporting cast has been a lot worse than last year. Same players, different results.

Bulls didn't get a bench point until 2 minutes into the 4th Q.

And secondly, if this was Patrick Ewings shining moment I'd believe it. He was SO good in the clutch, absolutely the difference between winning and losing. He outplayed Jordan when it mattered. Even when his shot wasn't falling in the first half, his defensive presence made such a huge impact.

I feel like I'm saying this far too often but Pippens individual defense is pretty much non existent. I wonder what guys like X think nowadays when they hear Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defensive player, because he gave him work.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on the game 7 officiating

[Roundball_Rock]

I feel like I'm saying this far too often but Pippens individual defense is pretty much non existent. I wonder what guys like X think nowadays when they hear Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defensive player, because he gave him work.

His reputation is based on team/help defense, not individual defense. Even JVG, who was an assistant and then HC of those Knicks team, and doesn't seem to be to enamored with Pippen said Pippen is the GOAT team/help defender.

I also think you are setting a high bar that no one can clear. Drexler's career numbers against MJ are much better than his overall career numbers (forgotten because it didn't happen in the finals when Drexler had a bad knee in the series). Magic's best games in 91' were with MJ on him. Miller put up 22 on 54% against MJ in a Game 7, not monster numbers but he got his norm on higher efficiency. LeBron put up big numbers on Kawhi in the finals. Durant scores on Kawhi. You can do down the line and say the same about any all-time great defender. The standard you seem to have is to hold a player to 5 points or something.

Re X, this was his career highlight. It literally is the only thing the guy is remembered for so that has to be factored in.

[Carbine]

I don't agree about Lebron getting his vs. Kawhi. He very clearly didn't if you watched the individual defense being played, not the box score.

I watched the series very closely, the Spurs and Tim Duncan were my favorite player/team to watch.

There's actually a video showcasing what I am saying. Lebron didn't drop "28/8/8" or whatever it was on Kawhi. That's really a dumb thing to say if you watch the games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGlNxSvODw

[Carbine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU09Gph3B_s

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't agree about Lebron getting his vs. Kawhi. He very clearly didn't if you watched the individual defense being played, not the box score.

I watched the series very closely, the Spurs and Tim Duncan were my favorite player/team to watch.

There's actually a video showcasing what I am saying. Lebron didn't drop "28/8/8" or whatever it was on Kawhi. That's really a dumb thing to say if you watch the games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGlNxSvODw

That was more so in 14' than 13'.

LeBron is 24.4/6.8/7.8 on 46.9% against Kawhi for his career in 12 RS games. His averages were 26.5/7.8/7.8 on 53.1% in the RS those years.

In the playoffs LeBron went 26.5/9.6/5.8 on 49.4% against the Spurs (12 games). His playoff averages were 26.6/7.8/5.7 on 52.3%.

So he was producing but his efficiency dropped--but how much of that is Kawhi directly and how much of that Pop and the Spurs having a great defense overall?

Here is Drexler against MJ (17 RS games): 23.5/6.4/5.7 on 48.9%
Drexler's career averages are.................: 20.4/6.1/5.6 on 47.2%

So he did better against MJ. Unfortunately, the perception is the opposite because of the finals when Drexler was playing on a bad knee.

It is hard to compare much more for the playoffs because MJ played in a weak era for SG's so no point comparing Starks vs. MJ to his norm, for example. He played Miller once but only guarded him for part of the series. Magic had monster games against MJ in 91'.

[Carbine]

Saying he "did this against kawhi" then listing his numbers is what I disagree with violently.

He literally scored 18 points in the first Q of the video I posted I believe and two of them were "against Kawhi" yet at the end of the game. It's illogical to give all those points as if he scored them against Kawhi. He scored 2 with Kawhi on him.

LeBron hits a three over TP on a switch and somehow that's going against Kawhi as if he guarded him?

[3ball]

Jordan wasn't the main playmaker, ball handler, or defender for any of his championships

Lebron was for all of his, against much tougher comp to boot

Jordan was a jumpshooter on a stacked team in a garbage era.

Jordan led the Bulls in assists on nearly every playoff run with Pippen - 6 of 9 playoff run with Pippen...

Same in the Finals (2 more total assists in the 6 Finals)

He was also the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Payton - all the opponent's top perimeter players

[Kblaze8855]

Saying he "did this against kawhi" then listing his numbers is what I disagree with violently.

He literally scored 18 points in the first Q of the video I posted I believe and two of them were "against Kawhi" yet at the end of the game. It's illogical to give all those points as if he scored them against Kawhi. He scored 2 with Kawhi on him.

LeBron hits a three over TP on a switch and somehow that's going against Kawhi as if he guarded him?

That goes both ways unfortunately. I remember someone claiming Leonard lit up Lebron in 2014 because he shot some crazy percentage one game that turned out to be this one:




https://youtu.be/tLBPQsDh1RM



Where he scored exactly 2 points on Lebron.

And we all watched that a few years ago.

Imagine how bad this shit gets after decades?

[Roundball_Rock]

The point was you can do the same analysis you apply to Pippen to any all-time great defender. Forget Kawhi/LeBron in 2 series in 2013-2014. I also posted LeBron's career #'s against Kawhi. I did the same with Drexler vs. MJ--which are stark. Here they are again:


Here is Drexler against MJ (17 RS games): 23.5/6.4/5.7 on 48.9%
Drexler's career averages are.................: 20.4/6.1/5.6 on 47.2%

Drexler scored 15% more against MJ while his assists and boards increased slightly. His FG % rose almost 2%.

Someone posted the games where Pippen guarded Magic and MJ did in the 91' finals. Magic's best games "happened" to be against MJ.

Great players are going to put the ball in the hoop or make plays if it is a guy like Magic. All you can do is limit them.

[Carbine]

I don't think you get it because you're doing the same thing again ;)

I don't know what those numbers mean. Drexler could have scored half those against other people, or on a fast break, wide open threes off a rebound, etc etc. He's not scoring 23.5 against JORDAN, he's scoring that against the BULLS.

I can see games where Kawhi really makes life difficult for opposing players. I've seen it plenty when he was with the Spurs and the Raps. The series against The Bucks shifted when Kawhi went on Giannis. I've seen Iggy really make life difficult for LeBron. Draymond on whoever he switches on half the time when he was in his defensive prime. Bowen back in the day was dirty but really made it tough. Klay hounds people all the time.

Pippen gets roasted a lot in man to man defense, whether that's getting blown by or really not throwing up a hard contest at the shot. His help defense AT TIMES has been GREAT though. I'm barely through 1/6th of this though, it can change. I don't want to undervalue his help defense, that has been as advertised for the most part. It's All-NBA stuff.

[Roundball_Rock]

Those are examples. Of course it would be great to have play-by-play data but that isn't available so career numbers are proxies. You just aren't going to keep great players at 6 points on 15% shooting on a regular basis.

I can't take any of Kawhi's production at face value. He takes more games off than any superstar ever has, he plays limited minutes when he actually does show up, and he takes time off on defense (for example, in the much hyped Christmas game he guarded LeBron only about 1/3 of the time). Any superstar will look better if they are as rested as Kawhi is due to these factors. Before he was a superstar he was a role player (including in 13' and 14') with 1 year in between as a "star." It is easier for a role player defensive specialist, similar to Bowen or early Kawhi, to play D than a superstar who also has to do other things on the court.

Some of it also is expectations based. X gets toasted for putting up 19/6/2; Pippen roasted for 16/8/7 in the same series. The extra scoring is sexy but 16/8/7>19/6/2 production wise, without factoring in 2 steals and 1 block versus 1 steal and 0 blocks. I agree with the Pippen criticism BTW; we expect more from a player of his caliber (and he delivered in Game 7 while X didn't show up) but it is important context that perceptions are based on expectations. On merit Pippen clearly outproduced him.

[Overdrive]

That was more so in 14' than 13'.

LeBron is 24.4/6.8/7.8 on 46.9% against Kawhi for his career in 12 RS games. His averages were 26.5/7.8/7.8 on 53.1% in the RS those years.

In the playoffs LeBron went 26.5/9.6/5.8 on 49.4% against the Spurs (12 games). His playoff averages were 26.6/7.8/5.7 on 52.3%.

So he was producing but his efficiency dropped--but how much of that is Kawhi directly and how much of that Pop and the Spurs having a great defense overall?

Here is Drexler against MJ (17 RS games): 23.5/6.4/5.7 on 48.9%
Drexler's career averages are.................: 20.4/6.1/5.6 on 47.2%

So he did better against MJ. Unfortunately, the perception is the opposite because of the finals when Drexler was playing on a bad knee.

It is hard to compare much more for the playoffs because MJ played in a weak era for SG's so no point comparing Starks vs. MJ to his norm, for example. He played Miller once but only guarded him for part of the series. Magic had monster games against MJ in 91'.

17 games vs 1086. It's not only about Drexler and Jordan, but usually outliers in H2Hs lead to skewed "vs the league & vs player x" stats.

[ArbitraryWater]

Those are examples. Of course it would be great to have play-by-play data but that isn't available so career numbers are proxies. You just aren't going to keep great players at 6 points on 15% shooting on a regular basis.

I can't take any of Kawhi's production at face value. He takes more games off than any superstar ever has, he plays limited minutes when he actually does show up, and he takes time off on defense (for example, in the much hyped Christmas game he guarded LeBron only about 1/3 of the time). Any superstar will look better if they are as rested as Kawhi is due to these factors. Before he was a superstar he was a role player (including in 13' and 14') with 1 year in between as a "star." It is easier for a role player defensive specialist, similar to Bowen or early Kawhi, to play D than a superstar who also has to do other things on the court.

Some of it also is expectations based. X gets toasted for putting up 19/6/2; Pippen roasted for 16/8/7 in the same series. The extra scoring is sexy but 16/8/7>19/6/2 production wise, without factoring in 2 steals and 1 block versus 1 steal and 0 blocks. I agree with the Pippen criticism BTW; we expect more from a player of his caliber (and he delivered in Game 7 while X didn't show up) but it is important context that perceptions are based on expectations. On merit Pippen clearly outproduced him.


bingo.

And Kawhi locking down LeBron?

Lol. Carbine needs to watch less YT propaganda more than he needs 90s Bulls right now.

[Roundball_Rock]

17 games vs 1086. It's not only about Drexler and Jordan, but usually outliers in H2Hs lead to skewed "vs the league & vs player x" stats.

I suspect Drexler would try harder in those games against MJ than when he was facing Hornacek or Starks or Vinny Del Negro, etc. It isn't perfect, though, due to the small sample size.

The point is MJ couldn't stop a healthy Drexler and under the standard being set here, that suggests he is overrated as a defender.


And Kawhi locking down LeBron?

It will be fascinating to see them play this year. What happens when Kawhi doesn't take a game off every week and what happens when LeBron and AD are playing 40+ minutes? Does Kawhi step it up or continue with his 32 MPG program? He did step it up last year in the playoffs---but that caused him to literally limp around...

[Overdrive]

I suspect Drexler would try harder in those games against MJ than when he was facing Hornacek or Starks or Vinny Del Negro, etc. It isn't perfect, though, due to the small sample size.

The point is MJ couldn't stop a healthy Drexler and under the standard being set here, that suggests he is overrated as a defender.


Of course he couldn't stop Drexler. He was a great offensive player himself and looking at the H2H there were trading buckets most games, looking who could score more. Don't know why it should tarnish Jordan's rep as a defender.

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course he couldn't stop Drexler. He was a great offensive player himself and looking at the H2H there were trading buckets most games, looking who could score more. Don't know why it should tarnish Jordan's rep as a defender.

That was my point. To say because great or good players sometimes scored that somehow that player is overrated defensively sets an unfair standard that no player could ever meet. The key is to limit what great players do, either their overall output, or to drastically reduce their efficiency by making them work harder.

[ArbitraryWater]

Of course he couldn't stop Drexler. He was a great offensive player himself and looking at the H2H there were trading buckets most games, looking who could score more. Don't know why it should tarnish Jordan's rep as a defender.

Do you really not understand he was merely making a counter point?

[Overdrive]

That was my point. To say because great or good players sometimes scored that somehow that player is overrated defensively sets an unfair standard that no player could ever meet. The key is to limit what great players do, either their overall output, or to drastically reduce their efficiency by making them work harder.

Misinterpretationn because you show alot of hate towards Jordan, but I agree with your stance also about Lebron and Kawhi.

[97 bulls]

That was my point. To say because great or good players sometimes scored that somehow that player is overrated defensively sets an unfair standard that no player could ever meet. The key is to limit what great players do, either their overall output, or to drastically reduce their efficiency by making them work harder.

Great points Rock.

I find it fascinating that this is supposed to be a website for hardcore followers on basketball and yet the overall logic on how the game is played is very elementary.

For example. I remember a player being castigated in here (I cant remember the name) because he said he did a great job on Lebron James one night defensively. But James statline was like 6-8 from the field and he had 20pts. (Something like that)

What those bozos couldn't understand was that

1. JAMES WAS HELD TO ONLY 8 SHOTS. That's a sign of great denial defense.

2. If I remember correct, 3 of those shots were because James stole the ball and had a free easy bucket

3. He had 4-5 TOs.

It's like these guys don't really know basketball. I actually think most of these guys on here only play video basketball games.

[Overdrive]

Great points Rock.

I find it fascinating that this is supposed to be a website for hardcore followers on basketball and yet the overall logic on how the game is played is very elementary.

For example. I remember a player being castigated in here (I cant remember the name) because he said he did a great job on Lebron James one night defensively. But James statline was like 6-8 from the field and he had 20pts. (Something like that)

What those bozos couldn't understand was that

1. JAMES WAS HELD TO ONLY 8 SHOTS. That's a sign of great denial defense.

2. If I remember correct, 3 of those shots were because James stole the ball and had a free easy bucket

3. He had 4-5 TOs.

It's like these guys don't really know basketball. I actually think most of these guys on here only play video basketball games.

I said this in some thread a while ago. Great defenders get their opponents away from their spots. You can't really defend a Lebron, Dirk, Kobe or whoever, but you can lead them to spots they don't prefer and make life harder. They'll still scorer, they have to, but efficiency will significally drop.

Lebron's prime ability is that if he doesn't feel he gets his scoring going he can kill you with passing. That's why having a bad game still might result in a 20/8/10 game and he'll tell you that he had a bad one.

[Phoenix]

Great points Rock.

I find it fascinating that this is supposed to be a website for hardcore followers on basketball and yet the overall logic on how the game is played is very elementary.

For example. I remember a player being castigated in here (I cant remember the name) because he said he did a great job on Lebron James one night defensively. But James statline was like 6-8 from the field and he had 20pts. (Something like that)

What those bozos couldn't understand was that

1. JAMES WAS HELD TO ONLY 8 SHOTS. That's a sign of great denial defense.

2. If I remember correct, 3 of those shots were because James stole the ball and had a free easy bucket

3. He had 4-5 TOs.

It's like these guys don't really know basketball. I actually think most of these guys on here only play video basketball games.

Most discussion on here are just a series of catchphrases that have permeated through the years to where the people chiefly relying on them probably have no context whatsoever on what it means. It's just a stream of 6/24, 6/6, 55 wins, 3/9 'gotchas'.

[Carbine]

MJ came out and set the example as well as anyone could've hoped for in this game 2 vs Knicks.

For as well as he played in the first half he was quite off in the second half and was a negative in the crunch time. He missed 3 free throws late in a tight game. If it wasn't for BJ Armstrong to close this game, it could have easily been 0-2 heading back to NY. He was so good.

Pippen was awful this game. His worst performance in any game I've watched during these playoff runs so far.

Knicks really shot themselves in the foot with 20+ turnovers, but they are a hell of a team. They never won a title, but I think they had the heart of a champion no doubt. This series is great so far!

[3ball]

Great points Rock.


1. JAMES WAS HELD TO ONLY 8 SHOTS. That's a sign of great denial defense.


.

No one can "hold" an all-time great to 8 shots, or even an all-star... Or even a playground player... It's too easy to jack up bad jumpshots, fadeaways, tough shots

Almost anyone that knows how to dribble and shoot can get 8 shots... The reason lebron couldn't get more is because he wasn't willing to work harder to get the shots, aka take TOUGH shots.. he wasn't willing to take bad shots

Lebron's entire basketball philosophy is: "okay.. i have 24 seconds to get an OPEN shot"

That's the mentality that he operates with

otoh, mj is thinking "what's the best way we or I can score that HURTS the other team".. this often entails taking contested shots and early or late shot clock attempts (the shit that wears a defense down... But that's some next level strategy that almost no one knows)

[aceman]

3ball watches every bulls playoff game;
Jordan dominated game 1 round 1
Jordan dominated game 2 round 1
Jordan dominated game 3 round 1
Jordan dominated game 1 round 2....
...

[3ball]

3ball watches every bulls playoff game;
Jordan dominated game 1 round 1
Jordan dominated game 2 round 1
Jordan dominated game 3 round 1
Jordan dominated game 1 round 2....
...

The stats say his rate of domination/production was goat, aka #1 all-time PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons

He averaged 5 more points and possessions used than lebron in the playoffs, with better efficiency per possession... so he provided more (volume) of a good thing (efficiency).. he simply DID MORE

Do you understand that?.. if lebron could've shot more and used more possesssions at the same efficiency (aka do more), he would've... But only mj could do that much

[Carbine]

I agree about the 8 shots thing.

LeBron has the ball far too much for it to be denial defense. Can a defender have one or two possessions of great denial defense in a game sure, but if Bron wanted to shoot 30 times he could, no matter if prime Iggy or Kawhi is on him or not.

[Smoke117]

Game 1 vs Knicks

First off, Mason was Draymond before Draymond. That guy is so quick on his feet for his build.

This game really came down to 2 things and something that's been very noticeable so far this playoff run - the supporting cast has been a lot worse than last year. Same players, different results.

Bulls didn't get a bench point until 2 minutes into the 4th Q.

And secondly, if this was Patrick Ewings shining moment I'd believe it. He was SO good in the clutch, absolutely the difference between winning and losing. He outplayed Jordan when it mattered. Even when his shot wasn't falling in the first half, his defensive presence made such a huge impact.

I feel like I'm saying this far too often but Pippens individual defense is pretty much non existent. I wonder what guys like X think nowadays when they hear Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defensive player, because he gave him work.

Do you even notice team/help defense? It's that part of Pippen's game that makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time. The way he'd be defending multiple players on any possession, cleaning up his teammates mistakes and dismantling what opposing teams wanted to do offensively. What he did as team/help defender means way more than any player has ever done one on one on the perimeter. Just watch that Kobe breakdown of his defense to see that.

[Carbine]

I've been very complimentary of his team defense. I'm not sure what thread you're reading.

[3ball]

Do you even notice team/help defense? It's that part of Pippen's game that makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time. The way he'd be defending multiple players on any possession, cleaning up his teammates mistakes and dismantling what opposing teams wanted to do offensively. What he did as team/help defender means way more than any player has ever done one on one on the perimeter. Just watch that Kobe breakdown of his defense to see that.

^^^ that's fluff talk that everyone said about Pippen because you couldn't compliment him offensively..

so everyone developed this hyperbolic way of talking about Pippen's defense - its similar to giving a retarded kid a compliment aka "your defense was GREAAAT".. That's what guys say who can't play ("b-b-but i play really good D")

[Smoke117]

^^^ that's fluff talk that everyone said about Pippen because you couldn't compliment him offensively..

so everyone developed this hyperbolic way of talking about Pippen's defense - its similar to giving a retarded kid a compliment aka "your defense was GREAAAT".. That's what guys say who can't play (i play really good D)

I always doubt if you even watched the bulls. Even the rest of the Jordan stans will admit Pippen was a fantastic defensive player. This is also such an idiotic take. When you are regularly regarded as the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time your defense is going to be talked about, dipshit. That's common sense.

[3ball]

I always doubt if you even watched the bulls. Even the rest of the Jordan stans will admit Pippen was a fantastic defensive player. This is also such an idiotic take. When you are regularly regarded as the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time your defense is going to be talked about, dipshit. That's common sense.

Again, everyone was ready with their "Pippen helped us on defense, he was key" bullshit talk

What else were they supposed to say?... :kobe:.... Seriously, what else can everyone say besides exaggerrate Pippen's defense because they know he's aids on offense?

The evidence shows that EVERYONE went off on him... Infact, he was the only guy ever getting destroyed by his matchup... And he only provided the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - these numbers need to be different if he was actually a good defender

[Smoke117]

Again, everyone was ready with their "Pippen helped us on defense, he was key" bullshit talk

What else were they supposed to say?... :kobe:.... Seriously, what else can everyone say besides exaggerrate Pippen's defense because they know he's aids on offense?

The evidence shows that EVERYONE went off on him... Infact, he was the only guy ever getting destroyed by his matchup... And he only provided the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - these numbers need to be different if he was actually a good defender

You realize he carried the Bulls to the 2nd best defense in the league in 95, right?

[3ball]

You realize he carried the Bulls to the 2nd best defense in the league in 95, right?

because their offense was aids

If they had the capability to win with offense (a good offense), their defense wouldn't be shit... MJ gave then the goat offense with no drop-off defensively... A 2-way team granted by the goat 2-way player

Btw, MJ had the bulls at #2 or #3 defense in 1988 and also 98' before Pippen came back...

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you even notice team/help defense? It's that part of Pippen's game that makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player of all time. The way he'd be defending multiple players on any possession, cleaning up his teammates mistakes and dismantling what opposing teams wanted to do offensively. What he did as team/help defender means way more than any player has ever done one on one on the perimeter. Just watch that Kobe breakdown of his defense to see that.

Which used this clip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

:bowdown:

Too bad there is not "stat" for that, and according to people like 3ball if it isn't PPG, it doesn't count.

[Smoke117]

because their offense was aids

If they had the capability to win with offense (a good offense), their defense wouldn't be shit... MJ gave then the goat offense with no drop-off defensively... A 2-way team granted by the goat 2-way player

Btw, MJ had the bulls at #2 or #3 defense in 1988 and also 98' before Pippen came back...

lol no he didn't. The 98 Bulls had much better overall defensive players in 98 than the 95 Bulls did. Rodman was also the one who was leading the team in drating. He was far more important to the defense while Pippen was out than Jordan was. Charles Oakley was also a very good defensive player in 88 and both Pippen and Grant were both solid positive impact defenders off the bench their rookie seasons. Jordan never had to carry the defense like Pippen did in 95.

[3ball]

Which used this clip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

:bowdown:

Too bad there is not "stat" for that, and according to people like 3ball if it isn't PPG, it doesn't count.


^^^ regular help defense - replacement-player stuff

Anyone can find some defensive plays,, but there's FAR more plays of him getting destroyed.. everyone got theirs on Pippen.. he stopped no one

[Roundball_Rock]

The available evidence suggests MJ improved the team's offensive rating by 3 points; Pippen improved it by 5. Yet MJ gets the credit for the offense? :lol The offense was barely above average (+1) without Pippen in 98'.

[3ball]

The available evidence suggests MJ improved the team's offensive rating by 3 points; Pippen improved it by 5. Yet MJ gets the credit for the offense? :lol The offense was barely above average (+1) without Pippen in 98'.

Pippen never improved the bulls offense

Jordan improved it from 14th in 94', to #1 in 96'

MJ had four #1 offenses with the worst offensive help ever for a great team

Goat offenses with woat help

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen never improved the bulls offense

They were 21st without him in 94'; 8th with him. Overall (note the Bulls being almost league average w/out Pippen in 98' and going to #2 with him):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

[Smoke117]

They were 21st without him in 94'; 8th with him. Overall (note the Bulls being almost league average w/out Pippen in 98' and going to #2 with him):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

/thread

[3ball]

They were 21st without him in 94'; 8th with him. Overall (note the Bulls being almost league average w/out Pippen in 98' and going to #2 with him):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

Based on that info, a dumb person (no offense) would conclude that Pippen is the better offensive player

A smart person would figure that's impossible and figure there's a sensible explanation

Obviously, it's easier to go from 102 to 103 ortg, than 113 to 114

The difference between a 102 offense and 108 is nothing compared to the difference between 112 (Gasol's Grizzlies) and 115 (magic, curry, MJ's best offenses)

[Roundball_Rock]

Based on that info, a dumb person (no offense) would conclude that Pippen is the better offensive player

A smart person would figure that's impossible and figure there's a sensible explanation

Here it is (the answer is efficiency increased as Pippen guided an elite offense as Pippen ball is winning, team ball):

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

[3ball]

Here it is:

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

You post data with no point

Just plastering meaningless data

Jordan had goat offenses

Pippen had average offenses

Ortg has diminishing returns.. if you can't account for that in your analysis, then you're as dumb as backpicks'

[Smoke117]

Based on that info, a dumb person (no offense) would conclude that Pippen is the better offensive player

A smart person would figure that's impossible and figure there's a sensible explanation

Obviously, it's easier to go from 102 to 103 ortg, than 113 to 114

The difference between a 102 offense and 108 is nothing compared to the difference between 112 (Gasol's Grizzlies) and 115 (magic, curry, MJ's best offenses)

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

Which MJ himself said when he was comparing Pippen to Kemp.

Pippen did the same thing in Portland. Portland's W-L crashed without him (going from top 5 in the NBA to around 20th) for the same reason: the offense didn't operate nearly as efficiently as with Pippen at the controls and the teams missed his leadership and defensive ability.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1988-1989 Bulls: 4-5 without him (44%), 43-30 with him (59%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 36 wins without him, 48 wins with him
Impact: +12 wins

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

The Portland stuff was when the top 4-5 teams were all in the West so that is the context of "#4 in the West."

[3ball]

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

So did Draymond

So did Boris Diaw

So did Steve Smith

So did Bosh

So your argument isn't strong - the more you stray from arguments that you normally use for other guys - you lose

who cares if Pippen improved some guys by a point or 2 - everyone does that, or a lot of guys do - its a weak argument and shows how bare the cupboard of arguments is for Pippen.. :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

So did Draymond

So did Boris Diaw

So did Steve Smith

So did Bosh

So your argument isn't strong - the more you stray from arguments that you normally use for other guys - you lose

who cares if Pippen improved some guys by a point or 2 - everyone does that, or a lot of guys do - its a weak argument and shows how bare the cupboard of arguments is for Pippen.. :confusedshrug:

Steve Smith? Bosh? What the ****? :oldlol: Those two guys never made teammates better. Draymond pretty much needs a good team around him as we've seen this year. He was insignificant as you can be. As far as Diaw goes...who cares? Pippen is so much better than him in every way that bringing him up is just stupid.

[ELITEpower23]

Here it is (the answer is efficiency increased as Pippen guided an elite offense as Pippen ball is winning, team ball):

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

WOW. I think we need to shut ISH down for an hour. One moment of silence for this. R.I.P.

[3ball]

Steve Smith? Bosh? What the ****? :oldlol: Those two guys never made teammates better. Draymond pretty much needs a good team around him as we've seen this year. He was insignificant as you can be. As far as Diaw goes...who cares? Pippen is so much better than him in every way that bringing him up is just stupid.

There's tons of 16/6/5 "glue" guys in NBA history

Only one of them gets overrated and put in the top 50

[Smoke117]

There's tons of 16/6/5 "glue" guys in NBA history

Only one of them gets overrated and put in the top 50

lol So were going to define a guy by his early and on his last legs career. Why don't you post Pippen's numbers with the bulls 90 to 98 instead? I guess they'd be too high, huh? Let's include him coming up and then battered to shit 33-37 and say that's what he did for the Bulls. Again, you're just pathetic. I'm almost convinced you actually hate Jordan as you've brought more ill will to that prick than anyone ever could with your nonsense. Also, a 16/6/5 guy while being one of the greatest defensive players of all time isn't a glue guy but a star. Impact goes beyond the box score. I never thought I'd have to tell that to a Jordan stan. Yeah, Jordan put up big numbers, but he was a guy who always got respect for things he did beyond the box score. It's pathetic the way you want to diminish his teammates and raise him up purely on that. The funniest thing about your nonsense is even Jordan would call you a moron.

[Reggie43]

Would love to do something like this for the 90s Pacers, maybe try to watch one playoff run but unfortunately they dont have every series/games on youtube. Was actually searching for a game in the Knicks/Pacers series in 2000 wherein Mark Jackson unveiled his cross sign celebration but I couldnt find it. It was game 5 I think.

[aceman]

Here it is (the answer is efficiency increased as Pippen guided an elite offense as Pippen ball is winning, team ball):

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Great post. Even last dance conceded team played better with Scottie running show. Stats back this up

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post. Even last dance conceded team played better with Scottie running show. Stats back this up

Yup, and so did Phil Jackson and teammates. The teammates in particular explain why, that Pippen looked to keep everyone involved, went out of his way to work the offense to get the ball to a player who was cold or hadn't gotten a look in a while (versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars). None of this shows up on the stat sheet but it improves team performance and generates wins. :lol at Pippen being compared to Diaw, Steve Smith.

MJ stans love to make it all about winning or all about offense--until the inconvenient facts show up.


Why don't you post Pippen's numbers with the bulls 90 to 98 instead?

He knows those numbers=prime Hill's numbers, except Pippen actually played defense.

[86Celtics]

Yup, and so did Phil Jackson and teammates. The teammates in particular explain why, that Pippen looked to keep everyone involved, went out of his way to work the offense to get the ball to a player who was cold or hadn't gotten a look in a while (versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars). None of this shows up on the stat sheet but it improves team performance and generates wins. :lol at Pippen being compared to Diaw, Steve Smith.

MJ stans love to make it all about winning or all about offense--until the inconvenient facts show up.



He knows those numbers=prime Hill's numbers, except Pippen actually played defense.

The statpadder who shot all the time happens to average more assists than Pippen but don't let that tiny fact get in the way.

If somebody who has no idea about basketball were to read this bs, he would ask himself why the Bulls brought Jordan back in the first place? Because according to you, he is a statpadder whose teammates play better without him. Krause must have been such a fool and Reinsdorf an even bigger one considering that he was still paying him while retired.

[Roundball_Rock]

The statpadder who shot all the time happens to average more assists than Pippen but don't let that tiny fact get in the way.

No need to get insecure as a "non-MJ" fan. Who mentioned MJ?


(versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars)

You know the "s" after "superstar" means multiple players, right?

[86Celtics]

No need to get insecure as a "non-MJ" fan. Who mentioned MJ?



You know the "s" after "superstar" means multiple players, right?

This is the best you can come up with? No advanced stats this time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Good faith posters know the type of player I was referring to. Carmelo, by way of example since there is a thread about him, is one. Iverson another. Zach Lavine (MJ stans wouldn't get that since they stopped watching Chicago in 1998).

[Carbine]

Game 3 vs Knicks

Another very scrappy game. The Knicks really gave this one away I think, they were at one point 9/20 FTs in a tight game - that's about 5 points under the expected value. Big deal.

The Bulls TEAM defense was great in this one. Horace made a couple big time rotations, one of which was a block at the rim into an easy fast break lay up on the other end. I mentioned earlier in this thread how bad the spacing in the triangle is compared to what we see in todays NBA. I can see why it has been phased out of the NBA.

MJ was awful to finish this game BTW. I believe he may have been 1-7 with a missed free throw to finish this one, with an offensive foul thrown in there. Overall he had quite a solid game once again though, but he was pretty bad to "close out" this one.


It was 35 -22 in free throw attempts for Chicago as well, but the way the Knicks play defense all those free throws were deserved.

[Roundball_Rock]

What is your take on Xavier McDaniel in the series? The way people talk about his series you would think he was Kawhi against the Sixers or something but he netted out to 18/6/2 (so good for him but subpar statistical production outside of scoring) and didn't show up for Game 7 while he ceding 17/11/11 on 64% FG to his assignment.

[Carbine]

He is solid so far, both sides of the ball. He "fits" this teams brand of basketball, but he can't be your #2 option. He's not THAT guy.

That's really the biggest issue with the Knicks on offense, they don't have a reliable guy to create looks on the perimeter. Ewing has been actually the best player in this series by far in nut crunching time, it's the offensive help around him in these close games that is the let down, so far.

Ewing was referred to as the best big man in the league on this broadcast by the way. The "premier" big man, Marv said.

[Roundball_Rock]

He "fits" this teams brand of basketball, but he can't be your #2 option. He's not THAT guy.

That's really the biggest issue with the Knicks on offense, they don't have a reliable guy to create looks on the perimeter

I think this could largely sum up those Knicks' teams (just add a sentence or two about their great defenses). Ewing got hosed in terms of offensive support. Even Robinson had Sean Elliot. McDaniel, Starks don't cut it.


it's the offensive help around him in these close games that is the let down, so far.

That is what I concluded after watching the 93' ECF games again several weeks ago. When the Bulls needed a basket there was MJ, Pippen, even Armstrong there. The Knicks had only Ewing producing.


Ewing was referred to as the best big man in the league on this broadcast by the way. The "premier" big man, Marv said.

Yeah, that is what people forget. Hakeem wasn't considered leaps and bounds ahead of Robinson, Ewing until the 94' finals and 95' WCF. Many people had Robinson and/or Ewing as better than him and then if it is big men, Barkley was better than all of them by the general view for a while and there was Malone too.

[Carbine]

It might be a hot take, but so far during these '91 and '92 runs Horace Grant is just as good if not better on defense than Pippen.

His help defense is not typically as highlight worthy as Pippens, but he is steady eddy. When they do press, he's the key to it. His ability to pressure the inbound, hustle into a trap and then hustle back into defense is unique for a PF back then. They don't do pick and rolls a whole lot but when they do and he's involved, his ability flourishes in those situations. He's still basically a finisher on offense though, that hasn't changed - but that's OK.

Game 4 was a nice answer from the Knicks. X-Man was great and outplayed Pippen and once again Ewing was great in the clutch and nobody on the Bulls produced when it mattered besides BJ Armstrong.

[3ball]

It might be a hot take, but so far during these '91 and '92 runs Horace Grant is just as good if not better on defense than Pippen.

His help defense is not typically as highlight worthy as Pippens, but he is steady eddy. When they do press, he's the key to it. His ability to pressure the inbound, hustle into a trap and then hustle back into defense is unique for a PF back then. They don't do pick and rolls a whole lot but when they do and he's involved, his ability flourishes in those situations. He's still basically a finisher on offense though, that hasn't changed - but that's OK.

Game 4 was a nice answer from the Knicks. X-Man was great and outplayed Pippen and once again Ewing was great in the clutch and nobody on the Bulls produced when it mattered besides BJ Armstrong.

Lol

It's funny when your dog eyes (you don't know what you're watching, like a dog) actually says something in the vicinity of what's going on

There's a reason Grant frequently contributed more to wins than Pippen (higher ws/48 on numerous occasions, aka 94' Playoffs).. its because Pippen wasn't that good and was frequently more like a 4th or 5th option defensive role player rather than a star

[BigShotBob]

Spoiler alert

In games 4, 5, and 6 Pippen played like complete dog shit. If this doesn't get mentioned then OP is biased and retarded.

Just watched the games ahead of him so I know.

[AussieSteve]

Lol

It's funny when your dog eyes (you don't know what you're watching, like a dog) actually says something in the vicinity of what's going on

There's a reason Grant frequently contributed more to wins than Pippen (higher ws/48 on numerous occasions, aka 94' Playoffs).. its because Pippen wasn't that good and was frequently more like a 4th or 5th option defensive role player rather than a star

Translation... the bulls had an All NBA calibre player as 4th or 5th option

[Phoenix]

Ewing was referred to as the best big man in the league on this broadcast by the way. The "premier" big man, Marv said.

It's good to go back and watch these old games because it gives you a good feeling for what the common b-ball vernacular was at the time. Ewing being the best center/big was a debatable but not uncommon view at the time. Being in a huge market helped his profile as the Knicks were always on TV. Bear in mind that Hakeem went on his run 2 years later. So that's how fine the line was when this stuff was actually happening.

[Roundball_Rock]

Grant was an excellent defender and could produce some scoring, unlike Rodman (Rodman>Grant, though, since Rodman was the far better rebounder and superior defender). It is a shame he has become the forgotten man of the dynasty.


Translation... the bulls had an All NBA calibre player as 4th or 5th option

Yup--using the stats 3ball and co. cite, Grant and Kukoc were all-NBA players for several seasons.


There's a reason Grant frequently contributed more to wins than Pippen (higher ws/48 on numerous occasions, aka 94' Playoffs)

Notice the sleight of hand here? WS/48 hurts superstars because they place more minutes but let's check the #'s for his favorite stat.

Grant:

1990-91 NBA .188 (13th)
1991-92 NBA .237 (3rd)
1993-94 NBA .188 (11th)
1994-95 NBA .169 (20th)

Kukoc:

1994-95 NBA .185 (12th)
1995-96 NBA .231 (6th)
1996-97 NBA .204 (8th)

So the guy who always says MJ had no help is concending (implicitly) the Bulls were stacked. Who else could have a player 6th, 8th in WS on the bench playing limited minutes? What a luxury. A guy like that and he is playing 25-29 or so MPG. On any other team he would be playing 37-40 MPG back then, right, 3ball?


Ewing being the best center/big was a debatable but not uncommon view at the time. Being in a huge market helped his profile as the Knicks were always on TV. Bear in mind that Hakeem went on his run 2 years later. So that's how fine the line was when this stuff was actually happening.

Robinson too. I bet if you took a poll of GM's and coaches in 1992 or even 1993 Robinson would win but all three would get votes.

[Phoenix]

Robinson too. I bet if you took a poll of GM's and coaches in 1992 or even 1993 Robinson would win but all three would get votes.

Probably. Admiral around that time period was basically getting referred as 'Bill Russell but can score'.