Do any of you genuinely feel Jordan was an ~average player playing in a subpar era?

[hiphopanonymous]

I keep seeing several posters on here repeating things that make me think this is what they believe. Or even if you don't believe average I've seen people say he's more like a Steph Curry level player than say, a GOAT candidate. I don't believe in belittling him myself so if you could please explain your positions? I see lots of jabs taken at his 3 point shooting and his competition but I don't see what's so bad about his competition nor do I see the problem with his 3 point shot - he was so dominant he didn't need a 3 point shot better than what he had right? So what am I missing? Is this genuine opinion or is it just an example of people getting sick of hearing his praise so they dig into a side a bit (too) far on the other side of the fence? Some of you who feel like knocking Jordan down a few pegs, can I hear your thoughts on him as a player - genuinely?

[AlternativeAcc.]

He wasn't average

He was an incredible jump shooter, slasher, and finisher for a guard

He was incredible, but he's not the GOAT. He didn't have the same impact that LeBron, Bird and most of the all time great big men had on the game

The era was definitely subpar though relative to every other era. 90-2003 was weak in terms of competition in the finals

The league didn't become great again until LeBron joined the league, that's when we saw an explosion of talent and great teams

[hiphopanonymous]

He wasn't average

He was an incredible jump shooter, slasher, and finisher for a guard

He was incredible, but he's not the GOAT. He didn't have the same impact that LeBron, Bird and most of the all time great big men had on the game

The era was definitely subpar though relative to every other era. 90-2003 was weak in terms of competition in the finals

The league didn't become great again until LeBron joined the league, that's when we saw an explosion of talent and great teams
So how do you rate him? Give me your top 10 players as far as effectiveness goes (who's the best, period) - then what's your top 10 as far as accolades go? I'm curious how these lists differ because it sounds like if you rate him lower than say, Larry Bird, than you feel like his legacy of accolades is inflated vs his actual basketball abilities is this correct?

[DoctorP]

He wasn't average

He was an incredible jump shooter, slasher, and finisher for a guard

He was incredible, but he's not the GOAT. He didn't have the same impact that LeBron, Bird and most of the all time great big men had on the game

The era was definitely subpar though relative to every other era. 90-2003 was weak in terms of competition in the finals

The league didn't become great again until LeBron joined the league, that's when we saw an explosion of talent and great teams

this is complete delusional nonsense

[ArbitraryWater]

Hey CavsFTW, no one has ever said that.

[Manny98]

He's the second best player ever behind Lebron however he wouldn't be 6/6 if he played in another era

[3ball]

.



MJ PLAYED BETTER AGAINST THE BEST PLAYERS LEBRON FACED:






[1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).

[Stanley Kobrick]

hello daniel

[AlternativeAcc.]

So how do you rate him? Give me your top 10 players as far as effectiveness goes (who's the best, period) - then what's your top 10 as far as accolades go? I'm curious how these lists differ because it sounds like if you rate him lower than say, Larry Bird, than you feel like his legacy of accolades is inflated vs his actual basketball abilities is this correct?

Top 10

Lebron
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Jordan




Impact is most important. Bird shared accolades with kareem and magic. Who did Jordan share accolades with? To answer your question, yes MJs accolades are inflated.

Impact is something that's not easy to guage with accolades or stats. Generally if you have at least 10 years of elite play and it's obvious that you have carried the burden of a team consistently over that time then you've proven yourself in my eyes, accolades are nice but they don't tell the whole story.

My rankings are a combination of everything though. I feel like I get more out of the 9 players ahead of Jordan if I'm drafting a team from scratch. Russell is the hardest to judge for me... but it's hard to argue with his impact on winning.

All of these players are close, and different team circumstances and eras led to more or less accolades for each player. My list is primarily based on who would give me the best chance to win with a wide range of circumstances over a reasonable amount of years. Lebron is number 1 because he has proven to have elite longevity over the course of 17+ years... kareem had good longevity but he wasn't elite late in his career like lebron, so his longevity isn't enough to boost him over bird or magic who I feel are better players at their best.

[Soundwave]

There's actually a really easy way to debunk this as being phony trash. This video basically outlines it but I'll give the cliff notes version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zeuk_qZXVXE

Take a closer look at Jordan's Wizards first season in 01-02, especially before he tore the meniscus in his knee. This is the era of Kobe, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Tim Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Tracy McGrady, etc. You can't tell me with a straight face the league is more athletic now.

For context understand this, the Wizards were coming off a then franchise low 19 win season. Rip Hamilton who would become the no.2 option was prior to that season a 8 ppg rookie. Michael Jordan was 38/39 years old that season.

Prior to his injury, Jordan was averaging 25.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.1 apg ... compare that to Kobe Bryant who was 23 that season -- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg. Compare to Vince Carter who was in his peak/prime -- 24.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4 apg. Tim Duncan? 25.5 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg. This gives you perspective on how incredible what Jordan was doing, basically an old man matching production from the top young players in the league.

OK, so he put up good numbers, fine, doesn't impact the team though right? Wrong. The Wizards had a remarkable 26-21 record before his knee injury, which means they went from a 19 win team to a team on pace for 46 wins and a playoff berth, one of the greatest season over season improvements in NBA history. The crazy part about this is Rip Hamilton who was the no.2 option missed 5 weeks of that 26-21 period, once he came back the Wizards went on a crazy 15-1 run.

The Wizards with no other major additions to their roster other than Jordan went from the 2nd worst defence in the NBA to the 6th best in that stretch too, a remarkable defensive turn around. In that 15-1 stretch where the Wizards had both a healthy Jordan + Hamilton, they were actually the no.1 defence in the NBA.

And the other scary part? Jordan was actually getting *better* as the season was progressing. He broke several ribs in a scrimmage with Ron Artest that summer and wasn't able to train fully because of it, so as the season went on you could see he was improving. In his 20 games prior to getting hurt, Jordan was averaging 27.5, 6.4 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.3 spg ... this a f**king INSANE for a guy about to turn 39.

Unfortunately a torn meniscus is a serious injury (this is what destroyed Penny Hardaway's career) which required surgery and this ko-ed the Wizards playoff dreams, but prior to that his performance there was nothing short of amazing.

[Lebron23]

He is still a great player, but just like what the other posters said he won't be 6 out of 6 if he plays in another era. We saw Jordan getting swept by the Boston Celtics in the 1980's. In the 1990's he had the best supporting casts, and the best coach in the league. His team won 55 games without him when he retired in 1994. And we have much better shooting guard compared to his era.

[Soundwave]

He is still a great player, but just like what the other losters saig he won't be 6 out of 6 if he plays in another era. We saw Jordan getting swept by the Boston Celtics in the 1980's. In the 1990's he had the best supporting casts, and the best coach in the league. His team won 55 games without him when he retired in 1994. And

In today's era he could win more, because of super-teaming, weak ass babies would be lining up to play on his team, at least one of LeBron and Durant would go running to play with him if not freaking both, lol, eventually. You know its true. They would see his talent, and being the betas they are, they'd wouldn't be able to resist joining him when given a chance.

I'd bet LeBron eventually chooses Jordan instead of Wade or especially Kyrie. He'd go running to Chicago or where ever Jordan was at eventually.

You wouldn't be able to play him physical at all these days and zero rim protection either, he'd carve teams up.

Today players have much more control over their destiny and don't have to sit around and wait for their GM to build a team.

[3ball]

Top 10

Lebron
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Jordan




Impact is most important. Bird shared accolades with kareem and magic. Who did Jordan share accolades with? To answer your question, yes MJs accolades are inflated.

Impact is something that's not easy to guage with accolades or stats. Generally if you have at least 10 years of elite play and it's obvious that you have carried the burden of a team consistently over that time then you've proven yourself in my eyes, accolades are nice but they don't tell the whole story.

My rankings are a combination of everything though. I feel like I get more out of the 9 players ahead of Jordan if I'm drafting a team from scratch. Russell is the hardest to judge for me... but it's hard to argue with his impact on winning.

All of these players are close, and different team circumstances and eras led to more or less accolades for each player. My list is primarily based on who would give me the best chance to win with a wide range of circumstances over a reasonable amount of years. Lebron is number 1 because he has proven to have elite longevity over the course of 17+ years... kareem had good longevity but he wasn't elite late in his career like lebron, so his longevity isn't enough to boost him over bird or magic who I feel are better players at their best.

MJ won MVP in 88' and was robbed in 87', so he traded MVP's with Magic/Bird, and won MVP's over Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson in the 90's.. otoh, Bron went 7 years in his prime without MVP (13-20')

So ur wrong

And lebron lifts bad teams like MJ did, but he doesn't give you the best chance at rings because his style falls short of championship-caliber.. Otoh, mj gives teams a higher ceiling, aka Spurs/Warriors-style system juggernaut, and therefore the best long-run championship odds





Top 10

Lebron
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Jordan




Think about all the close games that lebron played in the playoffs and Finals

It's a ton of close games

Now what if lebron used an additional 3 to 20 possessions more in those games instead of deferring those possessions to lesser teammates?

Wouldn't lebron have won many of those close games that he lost??????... Well that's what jordan DID... His usage was 10-30% higher than Lebron's depending on the year, which amounts to 3 to 20 more possessions used per game.... AT BETTER EFFICIENCY PER POSSESSION!!!!!

Thats why MJ won more tight games - he was more active/used more possessions at better efficiency per possession

goat gonna goat

[Lebron23]

In today's era he could win more, because of super-teaming, weak ass babies would be lining up to play on his team, probably LeBron himself.

Yes, the nba contenders are now loaded with scorers and quality role players. And it's back to being a high scoring league. Gone were the days the nba teams scored under 90 ppg. We saw the Spurs failing to defend the 3 pointers, and being 27th on 3 points made the whole season. And they are a lottery team despite having Aldridge and Derozan.

[AlternativeAcc.]

MJ won MVP in 88' and was robbed in 87', so he traded MVP's with Magic/Bird, and won MVP's over Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson in the 90's

So ur wrong

And lebron lifts bad teams like MJ did, but he doesn't give you the best chance at rings because his style falls short of championship-caliber.. Otoh, mj gives teams a higher ceiling, aka Spurs/Warriors-style system juggernaut, and therefore the best long-run championship odds

Otoh, lebron went 7 years in hos prime with no MVP
Thank you for explaining why accolades aren't the be all end all

Lebron from 2012-2018 was by far the best playoff performer of any player.

If there was a playoff MVP, he would have close to 10

The accolades we have don't tell a good enough story for them to be a main talking point.

Jordans style only works if you surround him with the best talent and a goat coach ahead of his time... lebrons style works with a wide range of circumstances. Plus his dedication to the game and intangible are superior to Jordans... Jordan was a gambler and quitter

[Soundwave]

Yes, the nba contenders are now loaded with scorers and quality role players. And it's back to being a high scoring league. Gone were the days the nba scored under 90 ppg. We saw the Spurs failing to defend the 3 pointers, and 27th on 3 points maddvthe whole season. And they were a lottery team despite having Aldridge and Derozan.

Be honest with yourself, LeBron and Durant would be in a race to go slurping Jordan's nut sack.

They went running to join the likes of Wade, Kyrie (lol), Curry ... if prime Jordan was playing today, one, if not both would try and team up with him and get on the easy train to championships.

The 80s/90s era inhibited Jordan because he was at the mercy of the two Jerrys taking years to build a good team. If the player movement of today existed back then and teaming up with other superstars was accepted as normal, guys like Barkley or Ewing eventually would have joined the Bulls.

I think honestly he would win more if you put a prime Jordan in today's league, at least one of LeBron, Durant, or Kawhi would try and join him the first chance they got. And you would have guys like an older Wade or Cousins trying to sign league minimum deals to join in too. That's how it goes today, that didn't happen in the 80s/90s.

Also go read the Wizards post I don't think you have a rebuttal to that.

[Soundwave]

Thank you for explaining why accolades aren't the be all end all

Lebron from 2012-2018 was by far the best playoff performer of any player.

If there was a playoff MVP, he would have close to 10

The accolades we have don't tell a good enough story for them to be a main talking point.

Jordans style only works if you surround him with the best talent and a goat coach ahead of his time... lebrons style works with a wide range of circumstances. Plus his dedication to the game and intangible are superior to Jordans... Jordan was a gambler and quitter

How do you explain an old ass 38 year old Jordan taking the awful Wizards from a 19 win team to a team on pace for 46 wins (one of the biggest season over season turn arounds in NBA history), 2nd worst defence in the league to 6th best, prior to his knee injury?

While averaging numbers comparable to a then young Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, etc.

If he hadn't gotten hurt that season he had a serious case for MVP at age THIRTY NINE. Let that sink in to your skull.

[AlternativeAcc.]

How do you explain an old ass 38 year old Jordan taking the awful Wizards from a 19 win team to a team on pace for 46 wins (one of the biggest season over season turn arounds in NBA history), 2nd worst defence in the league to 6th best, prior to his knee injury?

While averaging numbers comparable to a then young Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, etc.

If he hadn't gotten hurt that season he had a serious case for MVP at age THIRTY NINE. Let that sink in to your skull.

He rested for 5 years, came back and scored like 20ppg on 40% in a horrible conference.

Lebron has more milage right now and averages an elite 26/11/8 on 50% on the championship favorite

So jordan in his 15th year is 20ppg on 40% and misses playoffs in horrible conference

Lebron in 17th year is 26/11/8 ACTUAL MVP and championship favorite

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan is a legitimate GOAT level player, he would've ended up in the discussion regardless of what era he played in. But is he winning 6 rings if those Bulls have to go through 80's competition, the 3peat Lakers/Duncan Spurs, or the Durant/Curry Warriors? No, I don't think they are. You put them a decade earlier I think that ring count gets cut in half, and he ain't going 6/6 if he had to play the teams I mentioned above in the Finals.

I think the early to mid 90's the competition was standard, they were good but no historically great teams around. The late 90's though, I think that was a legitimately weaker time in the leagues history. I don't think it's a coincidence that a past peak 33/34 year old Jordan was reeling off nearly 70 wins b2b seasons during that period

So in conclusion, Jordan would've ended up in the GOAT discussion no matter when he played, he was that great of a player, but 6 rangz & 6/6 imo wouldn't have happened in any other decade, so I think it's when those get brought up ad nauseam that his era gets called into question

[Soundwave]

He rested for 5 years, came back and scored like 20ppg on 40% in a horrible conference.

Lebron has more milage right now and averages an elite 26/11/8 on 50% on the championship favorite

So jordan in his 15th year is 20ppg on 40% and misses playoffs in horrible.conferencd

Lebron in 17th year is 26/11/8 ACTUAL MVP and championship favorite

Nope, you're a liar, he was only off from 1998, that's not five years, I'm guessing math wasn't a good subject for you in school.

He was averaging 25, 6, 5 prior to his knee injury. And he was improving as that season was going on, averaging almost 29 ppg in the 10 games prior to his knee injury. 29 PPG. AT F*CKING AGE 38/39.

The Wizards were enjoying to that point one of the greatest season to season turn arounds in NBA history going from a miserable 19 win season to on pace for 46 wins and a playoff berth. They added basically no one but an old ass Jordan.

These numbers and this momentum only came down because he tore his meniscus in his knee, which is the same injury that destroyed Penny Hardaway's career.

Again, explain please how this is possible. Jordan was winning titles and Finals at age 35/36 without benefit of having to recruit a AD tier player in his 20s to bail his ass out also.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Nope, you're a liar, he was only off from 1998, that's not five years, I'm guessing math wasn't a good subject for you in school.

He was averaging 25, 6, 5 prior to his knee injury. And he was improving as that season was going on, averaging almost 29 ppg in the 10 games prior to his knee injury. 29 PPG. AT F*CKING AGE 38/39.

The Wizards were enjoying to that point one of the greatest season to season turn arounds in NBA history going from a miserable 19 win season to on pace for 46 wins and a playoff berth. They added basically no one but an old ass Jordan.

These numbers and this momentum only came down because he tore his meniscus in his knee, which is the same injury that destroyed Penny Hardaway's career.

Again, explain please how this is possible.
Jordan scored 20ppg on horrible efficiency in a horrible conference after 5 years of rest

15th season Jordan: 20ppg on 40%, no playoffs

17th season LeBron: 26/11/8 on 50%, MVP and championship favorite

[Soundwave]

Jordan is a legitimate GOAT level player, he would've ended up in the discussion regardless of what era he played in. But is he winning 6 rings if those Bulls have to go through 80's competition, the 3peat Lakers/Duncan Spurs, or the Durant/Curry Warriors? No, I don't think they are. You put them a decade earlier I think that ring count gets cut in half, and he ain't going 6/6 if he had to play the teams I mentioned above in the Finals.

I think the early to mid 90's the competition was standard, they were good but no historically great teams around. The late 90's though, I think that was a legitimately weaker time in the leagues history. I don't think it's a coincidence that a past peak 33/34 year old Jordan was reeling off nearly 70 wins b2b seasons during that period

So in conclusion, Jordan would've ended up in the GOAT discussion no matter when he played, he was that great of a player, but 6 rangz & 6/6 imo wouldn't have happened in any other decade, so I think it's when those get brought up ad nauseam that his era gets called into question

He would win more now.

The on court stuff would all be the same, but the major difference today is there is no team loyalty from players any more.

Eventually one of LeBron, Durant, etc. would go running to join Jordan and ride the gravy train to titles.

Gee ... play with Kyrie Irving .... or go play with Michael Jordan. Geez. HMMM. Such a tough decision here.

[Soundwave]

Jordan scored 20ppg on horrible efficiency in a horrible conference after 5 years of rest

15th season Jordan: 20ppg on 40%, no playoffs

17th season LeBron: 26/11/8 on 50%, MVP and championship favorite

With a torn meniscus yes his numbers came down as they would for any human being. And he still finished with closer to 23 ppg THAT season, lets get the facts right here. 20 ppg was the 40 year old season after the torn meniscus.

I'm talking about before the injury.

25/6/5 with the Wizards going from a 19 win team to on pace for 46 wins. 2nd worst defence to 6th best in the NBA. Scoring even improving as the season went on, 27.6 ppg in the final 20 games prior to injury, even up to 29 ppg in the final 10 games pre-injury.

F*ck your dumb LeBron shit, I want an explanation from you on this specific point, how is this possible?

[Soundwave]

exactly.. pair MJ with one of today's rich man Pippen's (PG, Butler, Kawhi) and it's 8 titles in a row

Durant and LeBron are beta personalities ... lets be honest, 1 if not both would not be able to resist going running to daddy Jordan to make the bad people stop beating them.

He would have a no.2 option in today's game far better than Pippen. He would have probably LeBron or Durant, like who the f*ck is choosing Kyrie Irving over Michael Jordan. We know what would happen.

There is no team loyalty or any expectation of such, all the great players would be lining up to join Jordan at some point in the current game.

The team he would have today would probably look more like this:

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't get all this era talk with all-time greats. Jordan would be Jordan in any era. Kareem Kareem. Wilt Wilt. Etc.

People act like their are hard stops between eras. There is a lot of overlap between eras. In Jordan's case he was still in the league when Kobe, Shaq, Duncan were in their primes and he started when Magic, Bird, Kareem were all going strong. He retired the year before LeBron did.

[Soundwave]

I don't get all this era talk with all-time greats. Jordan would be Jordan in any era. Kareem Kareem. Wilt Wilt. Etc.

People act like their are hard stops between eras. There is a lot of overlap between eras. In Jordan's case he was still in the league when Kobe, Shaq, Duncan were in their primes and he started when Magic, Bird, Kareem were all going strong. He retired the year before LeBron did.

This is one thing you and I agree on.

People cling to this era concept way too hard.

Any of the top 10-12 players especially with maybe an era exception for Bill Russell would dominate the same way in the modern era.

There's nothing magical that's happened in the modern NBA that prevents Jordan from dunking at the rim at will today or Shaq eating your D down low alive or Bird hitting 3 after 3 after 3 or Magic from being able to run a fast break the same way.

But any really high end player from post-ABA merger ... c'mon, they would be dominant in this era too. Basketball doesn't change that much.

[AlternativeAcc.]

With a torn meniscus yes his numbers came down as they would for any human being.

I'm talking about before the injury.

25/6/5 with the Wizards going from a 19 win team to on pace for 46 wins. 2nd worst defence to 6th best in the NBA. Scoring even improving as the season went on, 27.6 ppg in the final 20 games prior to injury, even up to 29 ppg in the final 10 games pre-injury.

F*ck your dumb LeBron shit, I want an explanation from you on this specific point, how is this possible?

So jordan in his 14th year couldn't do what lebron is doing in his 17th year?

[3ball]

So jordan in his 14th year couldn't do what lebron is doing in his 17th year?

You're getting Soundwaved

[Soundwave]

So jordan in his 14th year couldn't do what lebron is doing in his 17th year?

I don't really care about season to season, your point was Jordan doesn't impact a team, I'm asking you how then does a 38/39 year old walk onto a terrible 19 win team and instantly turn them into a 46 win pace team bound for the playoffs while scoring equal or better than the "young gun" players of that era like Kobe and Vince Carter? How does a 38 year old take the 2nd worst defence in the NBA and turn them into the 6th best defence overnight? How is that not a monstrous impact?

You can't answer this because you don't have an answer to it.

By the way the "mileage" stuff is overrated, biological age is by far the biggest impediment to a player's career as it goes on. Testosterone production, fast twitch muscle fibre decreases as person gets into their 30s. Playing more often is actually good in your 30s, when you get older the act of shutting down the body and then revving it back up to play at an NBA level becomes harder and harder. At least if you're continually playing the body will stay in that shape to some degree, but once you quit it's very hard to get the body back in your late 30s.

[AlternativeAcc.]

You're getting Soundwaved
I'm at work destroying him on my phone

Literally getting paid to destroy Baldan fans :rockon:

[Hittin_Shots]

So jordan in his 14th year couldn't do what lebron is doing in his 17th year?

Why are u going full retard?

Never go full retard.

[Soundwave]

The effect of aging also accelerates more rapidly, like there's a big difference between being 35 as an athlete to 38/39, the impact of aging accelerates as you get past 35 it doesn't stay level.

For Jordan to do what he was doing in that first season in Washington before he tore his meniscus is unbelievable.

Comparing that to play with AD ... lol, the Wizards were a way worse team.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is one thing you and I agree on.


:lebronamazed:


But any really high end player from post-ABA merger ... c'mon, they would be dominant in this era too. Basketball doesn't change that much.

Exactly. Think about how good you have to be to even make the NBA. Then to be an all-star. Then to be an all-NBA player. Or to be a MVP player. These guys>>>>>>>random MVP players. They are the top 0.0000000001% of basketball players. They will get it done in any era.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I'm at work destroying him on my phone

Literally getting paid to destroy Baldan fans :rockon:

If lebron put up 20/5 on 40% at age 39 in his 21st year it would be deemed a failure.. and that's without 5 years of rest that jordan took in his career

[3ball]

Isn't it dumb to say mj played against weaker comp when they played against many of the same players and MJ outplayed lebron vs the best guys (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett)???

[Soundwave]

If lebron put up 20/5 on 40% at age 39 in his 21st year it would be deemed a failure.. and that's without 5 years of rest that jordan took in his career

With a torn mensicus no one is doing sh*t, like you understand that right? I don't care who you are. The fact that he even somehow gutted it out and played a further 19 games on it is crazy.

A torn meniscus turned a 25-year-old Penny Hardaway from one of the best players in the NBA into a shell of him former self very rapidly. And that's a guy in his mid-20s where healing should be better.

To be able to come back from that at age *40* and still put up 20 ppg is nothing to scoff at.

But I'm talking about pre-meniscus injury, Jordan averaging 25 ppg/6/5 while turning one of the worst teams in the league into a playoff team and a terrible defensive team into one of the best in the league is remarkable.

He was playing at an MVP level on a *garbage team*, worse than any squad LeBron has been on since maybe his rookie year, and turned them into a playoff squad. And the crazy thing is they were 26-21 with the Rip Hamilton (the no.2 option) missing 5 weeks of that stretch.

[AirBonner]

Great player! However the separation people give him from his peers is unwarranted

[Soundwave]

Great player! However the separation people give him from his peers is unwarranted

It's fine it you want to state that but then you have no business crying if someone says the same about say Kobe versus LeBron and the seperation there not being large either.

[theman93]

He wasn't average

He was an incredible jump shooter, slasher, and finisher for a guard

He was incredible, but he's not the GOAT. He didn't have the same impact that LeBron, Bird and most of the all time great big men had on the game

The era was definitely subpar though relative to every other era. 90-2003 was weak in terms of competition in the finals

The league didn't become great again until LeBron joined the league, that's when we saw an explosion of talent and great teams

Interesting that the league didn't become great again until Lebron entered the league, but Lebron's era includes only 2 of your top 10 players in Duncan and a watered down Shaq, whereas Jordan's era includes 5 of your top 10 players in Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, and a watered down Kareem.

If the 1990-03 Finals competition was weak, then what do you make of the Eastern Conference Lebron had to go through to make the Finals in the 2010's?

[Rico2016]

Thank you for explaining why accolades aren't the be all end all

Lebron from 2012-2018 was by far the best playoff performer of any player.

If there was a playoff MVP, he would have close to 10

The accolades we have don't tell a good enough story for them to be a main talking point.

Jordans style only works if you surround him with the best talent and a goat coach ahead of his time... lebrons style works with a wide range of circumstances. Plus his dedication to the game and intangible are superior to Jordans... Jordan was a gambler and quitter

The crazy thing is, there is a playoff MVP but we just never realized it. Win Shares. If you look at who lead the playoffs in win shares, year-by-year, LeBron is infact the GOAT playoff performer by wide margin, too.

Here it is folks, your top 3 goat playoff performers, in order. Bar none.

Leading Playoffs in Win Shares

#1 LBJ (18, 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 09, 07) = 9x
#2 MJ (98, 97, 96, 92, 91, 90, 89) 7x
#3 Russell (66, 65, 63, 62, 60) 5x

That's it. End of story. Next in line to round out the top ten in some fashion are:

Shaq = 3 occurrences (04, 02, 00)
Magic = 3 occurrences (88, 97, 85)
West = 3 occurrences (70, 69, 68)
Kareem = 3 occurrences (80, 74, 71)
Duncan = 2 occurrences (03, 99)
Bird = 2 occurrences (86, 84)
Moses = 2 occurrences (83, 81)
Frazier = 2 (73, 72)

No other players have more than one for their entire careers...Kawhi, Durant, Pau Gasol, Garnet, Dirk, Curry all have ONE, but that's it.

[theman93]

The crazy thing is, there is a playoff MVP but we just never realized it. Win Shares. If you look at who lead the playoffs in win shares, year-by-year, LeBron is infact the GOAT playoff performer by wide margin, too.

Here it is folks, your top 3 goat playoff performers, in order. Bar none.

Leading Playoffs in Win Shares

#1 LBJ (18, 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 09, 07) = 9x
#2 MJ (98, 97, 96, 92, 91, 90, 89) 7x
#3 Russell (66, 65, 63, 62, 60) 5x

That's it. End of story. Next in line to round out the top ten in some fashion are:

Shaq = 3 occurrences (04, 02, 00)
Magic = 3 occurrences (88, 97, 85)
West = 3 occurrences (70, 69, 68)
Kareem = 3 occurrences (80, 74, 71)
Duncan = 2 occurrences (03, 99)
Bird = 2 occurrences (86, 84)
Moses = 2 occurrences (83, 81)
Frazier = 2 (73, 72)

No other players have more than one for their entire careers...Kawhi, Durant, Pau Gasol, Garnet, Dirk, Curry all have ONE, but that's it.

So if WS determine who's better, does that mean you have West > Duncan and Bird?

Also what do you make of MJ's playoff WS/48 of .255 to Lebron's playoff WS/48 of .244? Or MJ's regular season WS/48 of .250 to Lebron's regular season WS/48 of .235?

[Rico2016]

MJ was never average, especially if you consider who he was playing against. Among the 90s boys MJ looked like a god. In a modern era with modern players and an elevated average skill rating around the league, MJ would look human. He would be forced to defend on the perimeter more, he would be forced to take 3s and defend them. His 3 point shooting is notably poor, after eliminating his WNBA 3-point line years, his 1,000 shot sample size produces a paltry 28% from 3. That is nearing DeMar shooting numbers.

[Rico2016]

So if WS determine who's better, does that mean you have West > Duncan and Bird?

Also what do you make of MJ's playoff WS/48 of .255 to Lebron's playoff WS/48 of .244? Or MJ's regular season WS/48 of .250 to Lebron's regular season WS/48 of .235?

It is plainly obvious that LeBron is the best playoff performer of all time. He led the entire playoffs in win shares 9 such times. MJ was second best in this category, being a playoff MVP 7 times. Still great. Was #1 for a long time until LeBron passed him. Heck, even Bill Russell only had 5. But it drops off significantly there, for obvious reasons. Leading the league in Win Shares that many years, NINE?! Is unheard of. Frankly, it has only happened one time. Credit must be given where credit is due. And lol @ WS/48 so what are you saying? MJ played less minutes? Meaning...He had more time to rest since he had Pippen? Try again.

[theman93]

It is plainly obvious that LeBron is the best playoff performer of all time. He led the entire playoffs in win shares 9 such times. MJ was second best in this category, being a playoff MVP 7 times. Still great. Was #1 for a long time until LeBron passed him. Heck, even Bill Russell only had 5. But it drops off significantly there, for obvious reasons. Leading the league in Win Shares that many years, NINE?! Is unheard of. Frankly, it has only happened one time. Credit must be given where credit is due. And lol @ WS/48 so what are you saying? MJ played less minutes? Meaning...He had more time to rest since he had Pippen? Try again.

MJ played 41.8 min/g and Lebron played 42 min/g. An additional 12 seconds isn’t making a difference here nor is it even tapping the needle. But since you clearly don’t understand, let me break it down for you Barney style.

WS/48 is pretty simple. It measures how many win shares a player contributes per game. This is a better measure of efficiency and more accurately shows who contributed more to winning each game. In other words, Jordan is worth more wins per game than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs over the course of their careers.

Now, I’ll repeat the question. If WS determine who’s better are you saying Jerry West > Bird and Duncan? Try not to dodge the question this time bud.

[dreamwarrior]

He was a high volume scorer who was incredibly efficient even though he played furthest from the basket. He shot .333 (1 for every 3) or worse only 62 times in his career. That's even better than Tim Duncan from ages 21-35, who did it 77 times despite playing right underneath the basket. Lebron is pretty good too, though he's only played till 34 he's only had 34 of those games. For comparison, Kobe Bryant shot .333 or worse in 134 games from ages 21-35.

[SATAN]

It's fine it you want to state that but then you have no business crying if someone says the same about say Kobe versus LeBron and the seperation there not being large either.

Why do you always assume people that don't agree with you are "crying" ect? Seems like straight up projection.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was a high volume scorer who was incredibly efficient even though he played furthest from the basket. He shot .333 (1 for every 3) or worse only 62 times in his career. That's even better than Tim Duncan from ages 21-35, who did it 77 times despite playing right underneath the basket. Lebron is pretty good too, though he's only played till 34 he's only had 34 of those games. For comparison, Kobe Bryant shot .333 or worse in 134 games from ages 21-35.

Yeah people don't realize his combination of volume and efficiency for a perimeter player. There seems to be a weird myth that Jordan's era was this big time scoring era. The 80's were but not the 90's. There were only a handful of players scoring 25+ (Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, plus Wilkins through the 94' season) and one of those (Robinson) was more like 23-24 PPG in the playoffs.

Notice that the list I posted has only one other perimeter player. Even Drexler was not this monster scorer he is remembered as. He scored 23 PPG in his prime (88'-95').

One note on LeBron, while he is younger that sample has a lot more games than Jordan's because LeBron started earlier and never retired or missed most of a season due to injury. LeBron has played 17 seasons to date, Jordan played 15 seasons total and of those he played a combined 35 games in 86' and 95' (and the 15 # includes the 2 seasons in Washington).