Is 2011 Dirk Nowitzki playoff run overrated?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I seen some people compare Dirk's 2011 run to alltime great runs like 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2019 Kawhi and I just don't see it. Dirk didn't have a 2nd star on his team but he still had a damn good supporting cast. 2nd option scorer (J Terry), alltime great floor general and passer J Kidd, Elite defensive anchor and rebounder Tyson Chandler.

1st round series: Dirk had a 18.2 GmSc and just 47% eFG

2nd round series: Dirk has less then 3 point higher GmSc over Jason Terry with 20.5 to 17.7

West Finals: This is the only series when Dirk played like an alltime great but he had Nick Collison defending him on several plays

Finals: Dirk was clutch but he he ended the series with just a 16.6 GmSc on less then 54% TS and 41% FG

[StrongLurk]

I seen some people compare Dirk's 2011 run to alltime great runs like 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2019 Kawhi and I just don't see it. Dirk didn't have a 2nd star on his team but he still had a damn good supporting cast. 2nd option scorer (J Terry), alltime great floor general and passer J Kidd, Elite defensive anchor and rebounder Tyson Chandler.

1st round series: Dirk had a 18.2 GmSc and just 47% eFG

2nd round series: Dirk has less then 3 point higher GmSc over Jason Terry with 20.5 to 17.7

West Finals: This is the only series when Dirk played like an alltime great but he had Nick Collison defending him on several plays

Finals: Dirk was clutch but he he ended the series with just a 16.6 GmSc on less then 54% TS and 41% FG

It's not overrated BECAUSE he had so many clutch moments.

I will say though, that Mavs team does not get enough credit for defense and crazy three point shooting,

They were like a mix between the 2015 and 2016 Warriors in those 2011 playoffs.

[Turbo Slayer]

Dirk and the Mavs beat KD & Russ, beat down the defending champions (Kobe and the Lakers), and whooped Miami's (and LeBron's) ass in the Finals.

It's not overrated. I would say that it's actually underrated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A1kAqYgXv8

[PoutinPippin]

One of the most overrated, absolutely. He was unimpressive in the Finals. Until the second half of game 6. It was all Tyson Chandler and Jason Terry.

[3ball]

I seen some people compare Dirk's 2011 run to alltime great runs like 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2019 Kawhi and I just don't see it. Dirk didn't have a 2nd star on his team but he still had a damn good supporting cast. 2nd option scorer (J Terry), alltime great floor general and passer J Kidd, Elite defensive anchor and rebounder Tyson Chandler.

1st round series: Dirk had a 18.2 GmSc and just 47% eFG

2nd round series: Dirk has less then 3 point higher GmSc over Jason Terry with 20.5 to 17.7

West Finals: This is the only series when Dirk played like an alltime great but he had Nick Collison defending him on several plays

Finals: Dirk was clutch but he he ended the series with just a 16.6 GmSc on less then 54% TS and 41% FG

09' Mo Williams'... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 58.8 ts.. 113 ortg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
11' Jason Terry..... 15.8.. 1.9.. 4.1.. 54.1 ts.. 106 ortg.. 15.8 PER.. 0.100 ws/48.. 0.9 bpm.. 1.9 VORP


In the playoffs, lebron's brand was exposed against a top 5 SRS team, while Dirk's brand and teammates thrived

[HBK_Kliq_2]

09' Mo Williams'... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 58.8 ts.. 113 ortg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
11' Jason Terry..... 15.8.. 1.9.. 4.1.. 54.1 ts.. 106 ortg.. 15.8 PER.. 0.100 ws/48.. 0.9 bpm.. 1.9 VORP


In the playoffs, lebron's brand was exposed against a top 5 SRS team, while Dirk's brand and teammates thrived

I think Jason Kidd was the 2nd best player on the team because his play making and defense, not Terry. Dirk's 2011 playoff individual numbers were not very impressive for all-time great standards.. 2006 Dirk was all-time great level, I can see the case if he held on and won the title. 2011 Dirk was more allstar level who was clutch.

[FKAri]

West Finals: This is the only series when Dirk played like an alltime great
If that's your bar for all-time great play then no one in NBA history has had an all-time great career.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

09' Mo Williams'... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 58.8 ts.. 113 ortg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
11' Jason Terry..... 15.8.. 1.9.. 4.1.. 54.1 ts.. 106 ortg.. 15.8 PER.. 0.100 ws/48.. 0.9 bpm.. 1.9 VORP


In the playoffs, lebron's brand was exposed against a top 5 SRS team, while Dirk's brand and teammates thrived

Mo Williams was a great player. He seemed to always play well vs us when we would play the Cavaliers.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If that's your bar for all-time great play then no one in NBA history has had an all-time great career.

For a guy like Dirk who didn't bring much to the table on defense or rebounding by that stage of his career, i just figured he would be more impressive on his GmSc averages.

[bizil]

I think due to Dirk being the GOLD STANDARD stretch PF, it made his run more UNIQUE in a sense. We had never seen a stretch PF be the MAIN REASON why a title was won. Plus Dallas WASN'T seen as a threat to win a ring at the beginning of that season. Most seasons, the team that wins it AT LEAST was seen as a conference finals type of squad at the beginning of the year. And to top it off, he beat the Heat to win the title.

So if u keep it in the CONTEXT of the PF's, he had one of the best runs to a chip ever among the 4's. He's one of the rare SUPERSTAR PF's to ever win a ring as his teams best player. Only Duncan, Bob P, and Hayes had done it before him from what I can recall. But as I stated before, him being the ultimate stretch PF and Dallas NOT SEEN as a title threat in the beginning stages of the season, and beating the Heat make his run very noteworthy! But when people say it's a top 10 playoff run ever that's overrating it for sure. The perimeter guys who can dominate scoring AND are great all around players had the best runs. OR it was the dominant centers as well.

[RRR3]

His finals is very overrated. He wasn't that good, LeBron just handed him and the Mavs that series by playing like Evan Turner.

[Rico2016]

The bar is high, so it's hard to compare. For reference, 2016 is widely know as the GOAT chip as no one has ever beaten a 73 win team, comeback from down 3-1 in a Finals series, nor lead every player in the entire series in every statistic imaginable. It's truly unfair to compare LeBron's 2016 to other runs. For example, you've claimed 2019 Kawhi as a potential Tier A chip (and I admit, it was great run, also better than any run MJ ever had) but comparing Kawhi to Lebron is unfair for many reasons. Let's dive deep and figure this out.

Entire Playoff Run:
2016 LBJ: 26 - 10 - 8 - 2.3 - 1.3 (53/34/67)
2019 Kawhi: 30 - 9 - 4 - 1.7 - 0.7 (49/38/88)

It only gets worse from here as we dip deeper

LBJ: Ortg: 118, Drtg: 100 (Net +18) • BPM: 11 • WS/48 .279
Kawhi: Ortg: 119, Drtg: 103 (Net +16) • BPM: 10.1 • WS/48 .249

It still gets worse, since we all know how much everyone loves to cite PER. This will forever be a backfire if ever using PER to denounce Lebron's abilities:

PER
LBJ: 30.0
Kawhi: 27.9

Finals Opponent
LBJ: 73-win Warriors
Kawhi: 57-win Warriors

Finals Stats
LBJ: 29.7 - 11.3 - 8.9 - 2.6 - 2.3
Kawhi: 28.5 - 9.8 - 4.2 - 2.0 - 1.2

Kawhi's 2019 run is a solid Tier B ring, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Tier A would be 2012 LBJ and 2013 LBJ and 1994 Hakeem and 2001 Shaq
Tier GOAT would be 2016 LBJ.

Glad I could help educate the masses.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The bar is high, so it's hard to compare. For reference, 2016 is widely know as the GOAT chip as no one has ever beaten a 73 win team, comeback from down 3-1 in a Finals series, nor lead every player in the entire series in every statistic imaginable. It's truly unfair to compare LeBron's 2016 to other runs. For example, you've claimed 2019 Kawhi as a potential Tier A chip (and I admit, it was great run, also better than any run MJ ever had) but comparing Kawhi to Lebron is unfair for many reasons. Let's dive deep and figure this out.

Entire Playoff Run:
2016 LBJ: 26 - 10 - 8 - 2.3 - 1.3 (53/34/67)
2019 Kawhi: 30 - 9 - 4 - 1.7 - 0.7 (49/38/88)

It only gets worse from here as we dip deeper

LBJ: Ortg: 118, Drtg: 100 (Net +18) • BPM: 11 • WS/48 .279
Kawhi: Ortg: 119, Drtg: 103 (Net +16) • BPM: 10.1 • WS/48 .249

It still gets worse, since we all know how much everyone loves to cite PER. This will forever be a backfire if ever using PER to denounce Lebron's abilities:

PER
LBJ: 30.0
Kawhi: 27.9

Finals Opponent
LBJ: 73-win Warriors
Kawhi: 57-win Warriors

Finals Stats
LBJ: 29.7 - 11.3 - 8.9 - 2.6 - 2.3
Kawhi: 28.5 - 9.8 - 4.2 - 2.0 - 1.2

Kawhi's 2019 run is a solid Tier B ring, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Tier A would be 2012 LBJ and 2013 LBJ and 1994 Hakeem and 2001 Shaq
Tier GOAT would be 2016 LBJ.

Glad I could help educate the masses.

The argument for 2019 Kawhi is it was the biggest carry job in history due to his 76ers series of averaging 34 PPG with 7 teammates at worse then 45% FG

After that he beat MVP and best record Giannis. That was a much more difficult playoff path than Lebron's east path.

Finally, he matches Lebrons biggest accomplishment ever beating Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing a game.

So overall, the run is just more impressive due to worse offensive supporting cast and more difficult east path.

[Overdrive]

That's the kind of assessment you get when you judge players by gamescore.

[Reggie43]

I know they got old but Cuban not resigning some core players the next season is a testament to how 2011 was a lucky/flash in the pan type thing wherein even the owner doesnt believe they could do it again with the same lineup.

[Rico2016]

The argument for 2019 Kawhi is it was the biggest carry job in history due to his 76ers series of averaging 34 PPG with 7 teammates at worse then 45% FG

After that he beat MVP and best record Giannis. That was a much more difficult playoff path than Lebron's east path.

Finally, he matches Lebrons biggest accomplishment ever beating Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing a game.

So overall, the run is just more impressive due to worse offensive supporting cast and more difficult east path.

I'm trying to find a way to understand why you are holding onto the 76ers so tightly? Are you a secret Joel Embiid fan all of a sudden? I'll give you a quick little run down on why your 76ers claim is bogus. Since 2002, yes, 2002, the 76ers have not made a single Finals. In fact, they have not made a single CONFERENCE Finals either. In the last 7 years they only made the playoffs twice. Their best season since 2002 was 52 wins. Want to know how many times the Raptors won 52 games? Three times since 2016.

Furthermore, the 2018 Raptors were incredibly strong, achieving an SRS over 7.0 (Top tier status) #57th all TIME in SRS. Kawhi joined them. The 76ers? Terrible team. I get that you like to rag on MJ and boost up Joel Embiid but give it a rest you're not making any sense.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I'm trying to find a way to understand why you are holding onto the 76ers so tightly? Are you a secret Joel Embiid fan all of a sudden? I'll give you a quick little run down on why your 76ers claim is bogus. Since 2002, yes, 2002, the 76ers have not made a single Finals. In fact, they have not made a single CONFERENCE Finals either. In the last 7 years they only made the playoffs twice. Their best season since 2002 was 52 wins. Want to know how many times the Raptors won 52 games? Three times since 2016.

Furthermore, the 2018 Raptors were incredibly strong, achieving an SRS over 7.0 (Top tier status) #57th all TIME in SRS. Kawhi joined them. The 76ers? Terrible team. I get that you like to rag on MJ and boost up Joel Embiid but give it a rest you're not making any sense.

Embiid is a 20\10 guy with elite defense and arguably the best big man in the league. Butler is an all nba player and elite defender. I don't think Lebron has ever faced a duo at that level in the east.

Don't forget Kawhi made the buzzer beater in game 7 2nd round which was the biggest shot of the teams playoff run. Did Lebron make the biggest shot of cavs 2016 playoff run? Nope, Irving's finals game 7 shot was easily the biggest of their playoff run.

So at the end of the day, Kawhi is a bigger shot maker and he's also a better defender (locking up Giannis), overall just better playoff run.

[ELITEpower23]

Embiid is a 20\10 guy with elite defense and arguably the best big man in the league. Butler is an all nba player and elite defender. I don't think Lebron has ever faced a duo at that level in the east.

Don't forget Kawhi made the buzzer beater in game 7 2nd round which was the biggest shot of the teams playoff run. Did Lebron make the biggest shot of cavs 2016 playoff run? Nope, Irving's finals game 7 shot was easily the biggest of their playoff run.

So at the end of the day, Kawhi is a bigger shot maker and he's also a better defender (locking up Giannis), overall just better playoff run.

2018 Raps = 7.0 SRS
2019 76ers = 2.3 SRS

Quit it, man.

Did you just start watching ball? New fan?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2018 Raps = 7.0 SRS
2019 76ers = 2.3 SRS

Quit it, man.

Did you just start watching ball? New fan?

Embiid\Butler only played like 10 games together, you can't judge them by that SRS

[ELITEpower23]

Embiid\Butler only played like 10 games together, you can't judge them by that SRS

So then if they didnt have time to gel how are you acting like they played 3 years and had multiple ECF appearances? It is one or the other my man.

New team = no chemistry = terrible SRA
Established team = chemistry = great SRS

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So then if they didnt have time to gel how are you acting like they played 3 years and had multiple ECF appearances? It is one or the other my man.

New team = no chemistry = terrible SRA
Established team = chemistry = great SRS

Because Kawhi never had time to gel with his team either. 2008 Celtics didn't have time to gel but were still one of the GOAT teams.

[deathawaitu]

Dirks 2011 run is more memorable and more impressive than anything LeBron has done

Only things LeBron will be remembered for are 3/9, west virgin, daddy issue, NoJonesNoChip, and 13ebron

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Dirks 2011 run is more memorable and more impressive than anything LeBron has done

Only things LeBron will be remembered for are 3/9, west virgin, daddy issue, NoJonesNoChip, and 13ebron

Just because a few Lebron fans came in and wanted to tell me he's better then Kawhi. That doesn't mean to go off and compare Dirk to Lebron, stick to topic on Dirk only.

[SATAN]

People literally act like Dirk won by himself :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

One of the most overrated, absolutely. He was unimpressive in the Finals. Until the second half of game 6. It was all Tyson Chandler and Jason Terry.

Yup, SamuraiSwish is here.

LOL

[ArbitraryWater]

I know they got old but Cuban not resigning some core players the next season is a testament to how 2011 was a lucky/flash in the pan type thing wherein even the owner doesnt believe they could do it again with the same lineup.

well no shit, beating LAL/OKC/MIA with that kind of team isnt something that will be looked at as sustainable.

none the less had they kept Chandler, I like their chances for a WCSF or even WCF the next year.

[Nowitness]

Huge carry job, third worst supporting cast to ever win a title, but easily the hardest road to win. Single handily took down Roy, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Cemented him as a top 20 player all time

[ArbitraryWater]

Huge carry job, third worst supporting cast to ever win a title, but easily the hardest road to win. Single handily took down Roy, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Cemented him as a top 20 player all time

*Aldridge, Odom (6MOY), Bynum.

GOATness

[AussieSteve]

Dirk did three things that were noteworthy on the 2011 Finals.

1. His three pointer in the last minute of game 2
2. He hit a string of tough shots down the stretch in game 3, which didn't lead to a win
3. He hit a lot of fourth quarter free throws.

Aside from the above, it was far from a great series by ATG standards.

People love to hail Dirk's 2011 Finals as some kind of epic performance, alongside some of the best of all time. It just wasn't. Sure his 4th quarters were good, but what was hie doing in the first three? This is what he did in each game over Q1 - Q3.

17 points on 5-14 (39%efg). Mavs down by 4.
15 points on 6-15 (40%efg). Mavs down by 4.
19 points on 7-14 (54%efg). Mavs down by 3.
11 points on 4-13 (31%efg). Mavs down by 4.
21 points on 8-15 (57%efg). Mavs up by 5.
11 points on 4-19 (24%efg). Mavs up by 9.

His average in first three quarters was 15.7 points on 34-90 (40.6%efg) overall, and 14.5 points on 22-61 (37.7%efg) in the four games they won.

These are 2nd option scoring numbers with Russell Westbrook efficiency. He was essentially trash over the first three quarters of games in the 2011 finals. Especially in games they won. Typically, if your best player has given you ~14 points on 37% shooting at the end of Q3 in the finals, you'd expect to be in trouble unless you had some talent around him to bail him out. Especially if scoring is the only thing that your best player brings to the floor, which is the case with 2011 Dirk. He sure as hell wasn't making plays for others, crashing the boards, playing lock down D or protecting the rim. He was sub par in all of these areas.

With the way Dirk played over those first three quarters, the Mavs would have been blown out with little to no chance of winning going in to the fourth, except for the fact that
a. LeBron and the Heat shat the bed, and
b. the Mavs role players played exceptionally well

And what about his fourth quarters? Here they are.

10 points on 2-4 (50%efg). Mavs lose by 8.
9 points on 4-7 (64%efg). Mavs win by 2.
15 points on 4-7 (64%efg) Mavs lose by 2.
10 points on 2-6 (33%efg) Mavs win by 3.
8 points on 1-3 (33%efg) Mavs win by 9.
10 points on 5-8 (63%efg) Mavs win by 10.

His average in 4th quarters was 10.3 points on 18-35 (54.2%efg) overall, and 9.3 points on 12-24 (52.1%efg) in the four games they won. Good scoring numbers on good efficiency, but not a real lot of made shots... but he went to the line 28 times in 4th quarters, for 27 makes. He was the beneficiary of a lot of late game trips to the line. And to his credit, he is ATG from the line, and was clutch in the 2011 finals. Interestingly he attempted 28 free throws in 4th quarters and only 18 in all other quarters combined.

So yes, he had some clutch moments and was a dead eye from the line. But overall his production in the 2011 finals was AT BEST mediocre by ATG standards, with his numbers inflated by a huge number of late game free throws.

He was pretty damn good in the WCF though.

[ArbitraryWater]

^ He was definitely making plays for others. He was stretching the court just by being on.

Which is why he has such high impact on/off numbers.

He didn't just hit a tough 3 in the last minute of game 2 lol. Did you miss the game winner after? He went on a personal 9 straight points run to close the game.

[brutalBBQ]

Compared to 2006, yes

[AussieSteve]

^ He was definitely making plays for others. He was stretching the court just by being on.

Which is why he has such high impact on/off numbers.

He didn't just hit a tough 3 in the last minute of game 2 lol. Did you miss the game winner after? He went on a personal 9 straight points run to close the game.

From memory, the game winner in game two was a layup on a defense lapse by Miami. Credit where it's due sure, but not 'noteworthy'

[ShawkFactory]

09' Mo Williams'... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 58.8 ts.. 113 ortg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
11' Jason Terry..... 15.8.. 1.9.. 4.1.. 54.1 ts.. 106 ortg.. 15.8 PER.. 0.100 ws/48.. 0.9 bpm.. 1.9 VORP


In the playoffs, lebron's brand was exposed against a top 5 SRS team, while Dirk's brand and teammates thrived

Terry played better in the playoffs his entire career. He was big time. Remember game 7 in 2006. Likely cost the Spurs another championship.

Shot 46% from 3 the entire 2011 playoff run.

Look at the numbers. Mo’s efficiency always dipped. He wasn’t big time

[tpols]

From memory, the game winner in game two was a layup on a defense lapse by Miami. Credit where it's due sure, but not 'noteworthy'


your memory must be faulty mate.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhoppingImperturbableBoutu-size_restricted.gif

Dirk iso from the top face up, spin move, hesi (bosh bites). game winner. They were down 15 with 6 minutes left. One of the greatest comebacks in Finals history.


This is for the whole series in 4th quarters. He scored more ppg in crunchtime than prime MJ.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3w_pBoXoAAwuTM.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

From memory, the game winner in game two was a layup on a defense lapse by Miami. Credit where it's due sure, but not 'noteworthy'

C‘mon mate, you‘re talking out of your ass on this one.

He was tightly guarded by Bosh, spun away from him and drove to the rim, presence of mind to execute the move and see an opening, where many others would have let the clock run down but end up with a tough jumper.

Instead Dirk was swiftly efficient, made the fundamental rewarding move over being flashy and going for a jumpshot buzzer beater in the finals.

[tpols]

C‘mon mate, you‘re talking out of your ass on this one.

He was tightly guarded by Bosh, spun away from him and drove to the rim, presence of mind to execute the move and see an opening, where many others would have let the clock run down but end up with a tough jumper.

Instead Dirk was swiftly efficient, made the fundamental rewarding move over being flashy and going for a jumpshot buzzer beater in the finals.

not only that, watch the subtle stepback he does after the spin move.

Thats exactly where hed usually take a high arcing fadeaway 15 footer which is why bosh bit. then he just skated past him.

[SATAN]

7 foor Mark Price

[ArbitraryWater]

not only that, watch the subtle stepback he does after the spin move.

Thats exactly where hed usually take a high arcing fadeaway 15 footer which is why bosh bit. then he just skated past him.

Good catch.

You mean after that initial turn. Yea. He doesn‘t immediately go to driving, but instead hints at a pull-up kinda motion.

[AussieSteve]

C‘mon mate, you‘re talking out of your ass on this one.

He was tightly guarded by Bosh, spun away from him and drove to the rim, presence of mind to execute the move and see an opening, where many others would have let the clock run down but end up with a tough jumper.

Instead Dirk was swiftly efficient, made the fundamental rewarding move over being flashy and going for a jumpshot buzzer beater in the finals.

I suppose I remembered it how I wanted to remember it. But you're right.

His three noteworthy feats were
1. Closing game 2
2. Epic play down the stretch in game 3
3. Lots of made free throws.

But this doesn't change the fact that he was thoroughly mediocre for large periods of the series and that, had his team mates and opposition not kept games tight despite his poor shooting, at least a couple of the Mavs' four wins would have been out of reach by the start of the fourth (honestly, LeBron gave him that ring). It also doesn't change the fact that his production overall was not that impressive and was inflated by all the late game free throws.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Dirk shouldn't get praise for his play in the series, but if the question is "Was his 2011 finals over rated?", I think the answer has to be yes. Prior to that playoff run Dirk was borderline top 50 all time (https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html). Afterwards most people had him in their top 20-25.

[kentatm]

That's the kind of assessment you get when you judge players by gamescore.

Yep. This board he made itself stupid. All these fools do now is glance at numbers and try to shit on things they clearly don't understand.

[Lebron23]

It was rated fairly. I blamed LeBron's pathetic performance in the nba finals.Thank God since 2012 whether he wins or losses he's putting up numbers in the finals.

[Axe]

It was rated fairly. I blamed LeBron's pathetic performance in the nba finals.
It felt like lbj acted like a role player in that finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

I suppose I remembered it how I wanted to remember it. But you're right.

His three noteworthy feats were
1. Closing game 2
2. Epic play down the stretch in game 3
3. Lots of made free throws.

But this doesn't change the fact that he was thoroughly mediocre for large periods of the series and that, had his team mates and opposition not kept games tight despite his poor shooting, at least a couple of the Mavs' four wins would have been out of reach by the start of the fourth (honestly, LeBron gave him that ring). It also doesn't change the fact that his production overall was not that impressive and was inflated by all the late game free throws.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Dirk shouldn't get praise for his play in the series, but if the question is "Was his 2011 finals over rated?", I think the answer has to be yes. Prior to that playoff run Dirk was borderline top 50 all time (https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html). Afterwards most people had him in their top 20-25.

whats wrong witht hat?

2011 opened a lot of people's eyes as to who Dirk was.

Also its disingenous to say the ring was gifted, when he still needed to go nuts to clutch out 2-3 of their 4 wins

[ELITEpower23]

That's the kind of assessment you get when you judge players by gamescore.

And what kind of assessment is that? An unbiased, non subjective, accurate one?

Sounds like a good idea then.

[dankok8]

Incredibly overrated... The only series he really played on an all-time great level was vs. OKC. He was clutch in the finals like people said but didn't shoot well or do much else that well other than scoring. Without an elite defensive post presence in Tyson Chandler, Dirk never win a title. A 7-footer who doesn't anchor the defense.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Incredibly overrated... The only series he really played on an all-time great level was vs. OKC. He was clutch in the finals like people said but didn't shoot well or do much else that well other than scoring. Without an elite defensive post presence in Tyson Chandler, Dirk never win a title. A 7-footer who doesn't anchor the defense.

That's what I was getting at. His defense\rebounding wasn't even as good as his younger days, his playmaking was never great. So I want to see scoring that blows me away and it wasn't at that level besides vs OKC

[tpols]

You dont have to be a dribbler to be a great playmaker.

Dirk used to gift Terry, Kidd, Barea and a host of other perimeter players insane lanes just off his screen action.

He never had to touch the ball to set a fella up.

You mfers dont understand basketball.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You dont have to be a dribbler to be a great playmaker.

Dirk used to gift Terry, Kidd, Barea and a host of other perimeter players insane lanes just off his screen action.

He never had to touch the ball to set a fella up.

You mfers dont understand basketball.

Dirk's gravity does create a lot of offense but he wasn't a particularly great passer. He failed to win a title until he played with one of the greatest playmakers\floor generals ever in Jason Kidd. I think there's a reason for that.

[ArbitraryWater]

You dont have to be a dribbler to be a great playmaker.

Dirk used to gift Terry, Kidd, Barea and a host of other perimeter players insane lanes just off his screen action.

He never had to touch the ball to set a fella up.

You mfers dont understand basketball.

I really thought dankok understands basketball, but with how negatively he views dirk we know he sadly doesnt.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk's gravity does create a lot of offense but he wasn't a particularly great passer. He failed to win a title until he played with one of the greatest playmakers\floor generals ever in Jason Kidd. I think there's a reason for that.

This is so dumb lmao.

Yea he only came within a couple calls of a title with devin harris as pg.

What a bum.

[dankok8]

I really thought dankok understands basketball, but with how negatively he views dirk we know he sadly doesnt.

I understand basketball. Dirk's ability to shoot creates space for his teammates. But he's still a 7-footer who's merely just a good rebounder and not capable of anchoring the defense. Those are massive weaknesses for any big man and that's why he needed Tyson Chandler.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This is so dumb lmao.

Yea he only came within a couple calls of a title with devin harris as pg.

What a bum.

Choke is a choke. You can't blow 2-0 leads in the finals. Dirk had a playoff reputation like Harden prior to 2011, anybody who was watching at the time knows that.

[ArbitraryWater]

I understand basketball. Dirk's ability to shoot creates space for his teammates. But he's still a 7-footer who's merely just a good rebounder and not capable of anchoring the defense. Those are massive weaknesses for any big man and that's why he needed Tyson Chandler.

so the criticism is what, not being a defensive anchor? seems pretty weak.

easy void to fill


Choke is a choke. You can't blow 2-0 leads in the finals. Dirk had a playoff reputation like Harden prior to 2011, anybody who was watching at the time knows that.

what does that have to do with what you wrote? clearly he didnt need necessarily an all time great PG to win a title, especially since kidd wasnt one in 2011.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

so the criticism is what, not being a defensive anchor? seems pretty weak.

easy void to fill



what does that have to do with what you wrote? clearly he didnt need necessarily an all time great PG to win a title, especially since kidd wasnt one in 2011.

Kidd was still a great floor general, averaged 7 assists per game and was 2nd in BPM/VORP for that playoff run. Dirk would of never won it without him.

Getting backdoor swept in the finals is not really close to winning a title either. 2006 was one of the most embarrassing losses for any superstar in NBA history. In other words, mavs had a meltdown. Sounds like they were missing a lead playmaker/floor general (Kidd).

[dankok8]

so the criticism is what, not being a defensive anchor? seems pretty weak.

easy void to fill


Easy void huh? Mavs would have won more titles if that was the case. They had absolutely stacked teams from 2002-2007 but couldn't win a title (or even make many deep runs) because defensively they just weren't up to it. And Dirk was a big reason they weren't. Realistically, how many centers in the league could you put alongside Dirk in 2011 and win a title?

Tyson Chandler
Joakim Noah
Dwight Howard (obviously)

… and not many more.

Not being a good defensive player for a guard is not that big of a deal but for a big man it's a huge concern. It's not a coincidence that other offensively minded PF's who were subpar on defense like Charles Barkley and Chris Webber never led their stacked teams anywhere either.

I'm not saying that Dirk is not an all-time great PF. He's #4 all time for me and I can see an argument over Karl Malone for #3. But he's comfortably behind both Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett because both were two way players and GOAT on defense. And I'm honestly struggling to put him over Malone as well because Malone led his team to many more deep playoff runs and if it wasn't for MJ's Bulls he would have had a title as well. Karl was a much better defensive player than Dirk whereas the offensive gap isn't big either way.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Easy void huh? Mavs would have won more titles if that was the case. They had absolutely stacked teams from 2002-2007 but couldn't win a title (or even make many deep runs) because defensively they just weren't up to it. And Dirk was a big reason they weren't. Realistically, how many centers in the league could you put alongside Dirk in 2011 and win a title?

Tyson Chandler
Joakim Noah
Dwight Howard (obviously)

… and not many more.

Not being a good defensive player for a guard is not that big of a deal but for a big man it's a huge concern. It's not a coincidence that other offensively minded PF's who were subpar on defense like Charles Barkley and Chris Webber never led their stacked teams anywhere either.

I'm not saying that Dirk is not an all-time great PF. He's #4 all time for me and I can see an argument over Karl Malone for #3. But he's comfortably behind both Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett because both were two way players and GOAT on defense. And I'm honestly struggling to put him over Malone as well because Malone led his team to many more deep playoff runs and if it wasn't for MJ's Bulls he would have had a title as well. Karl was a much better defensive player than Dirk whereas the offensive gap isn't big either way.

This guy knows what he is talking about. This is why I think Charles Barkley is overrated.

[moongaze]

Extremely overrated especially the finals where he shot 42 percent and had more turnovers than assists. It's just that the majority of people in united states and that are online are white so everything done by a white guy is going to be overrated especially when compared to blacks .

[Doomsday Dallas]

Dirk's playoff run may be overrated...

but as a team? It's still the greatest playoff run of all time... for a team.

Miami came close to threatening that had they beaten Denver.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

The playoff run as a whole isn't overrated, even if there were some valleys.

As for his CV outside of '11: Dirk did choke a few playoff series away, but he was also unfortunate to have his prime be concurrent with when the conferences were at their most lopsided.

The '00-'07 Mavs might have reached 3-4 finals had they played out East, not one. Some parity was restored after that, from '08-'11-ish...and by then Dirk was on the tail-end of his prime.

The '06 finals are a big stain on his career, no doubt, but that series was an officiating travesty and look at what he did en route to them: 28/12/3 on 49/40/90 over the #2, #1 (by a lot!) and #16 defences. That run doesn't get thrown out the window just because he didn't finish the job. I mean ffs the guy put up 37-15 on 20 shots in a game 7 against a dynasty. On the road. Against a better team with a better supporting cast.

Nash, Dirk, KG and even Webb are casualties of playing in the West from '00-'07...

[houston]

No it wasn't dirk did his thang

[DMAVS41]

I will never understand the criticism that Dirk needed a decent center next to him to make a title run. First, he did it in 06 with Damp/Diop combining for 8 points / 12 boards in a combined 40 plus minutes a night...without an elite 2nd guy as well.

Second, nobody wins alone. It would be like saying...Jokic is great, but he needs a 25 ppg guard than can also create a ton of shots for his teammates as well....so he's over-rated.

Truly one of the dumbest arguments ever put forth on here. Dirk is over-rated because he needed average center player in 06 to make the finals and very good center play in 11 to win...

[1987_Lakers]

I remember him lighting it up throughout that playoffs then having a "meh" Finals for his standards.

Overall it was a great run, but I don't see it as an all-time great run

[tpols]

I remember him lighting it up throughout that playoffs then having a "meh" Finals for his standards.

Overall it was a great run, but I don't see it as an all-time great run

Dirk lit the Heat up in crunchtime though.


https://youtu.be/9k4Li-iT8QU


Wade and LeBron and Bosh got their asses handed to them when it mattered. It was a monumental underdog Cinderella run.

Easily one of the biggest Upsets ever and obviously an all time great run. I've been watching the NBA for decades and still haven't seen anything quite like it.

[ArbitraryWater]

I remember him lighting it up throughout that playoffs then having a "meh" Finals for his standards.

Overall it was a great run, but I don't see it as an all-time great run

Whats an all time great run to you?

Seems like a textbook all time great run to me.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk lit the Heat up in crunchtime though.


https://youtu.be/9k4Li-iT8QU


Wade and LeBron and Bosh got their asses handed to them when it mattered. It was a monumental Cinderella run.


He had one game with the fever and had a sprained finger all series iirc.

So his shooting was kind of lowered and he paced himself more throughout the game, but then lit them up in the 4th quarters where he averaged 10 ppg on 60+% TS iirc.

Not a great finals but still quite a positive/redeeming one taking these factors into account.

[1987_Lakers]

Whats an all time great run to you?

Seems like a textbook all time great run to me.

Russell in '62
Wilt in '67
Jerry West in '66 & '69 (Criminally underrated postseason performer)
Kareem in '77
Walton in '77
Bird in '84 & '86
Magic in '87
MJ from '91-'93
Hakeem in '94 & '95
Shaq in '00 & '01
Duncan in '03
Wade in '06
LeBron in '09, '12, '16 & '18
Kawhi in '19
Giannis in '21
Jokic in '23

All clearly better performances than '11 Dirk IMO.

Dirk's run is somewhere in the top 20 overall.

[DMAVS41]

I remember him lighting it up throughout that playoffs then having a "meh" Finals for his standards.

Overall it was a great run, but I don't see it as an all-time great run

He averaged 28/8/3 (61% TS) with limited offensive help and did not have a great 2nd option either. The Mavs had two pretty massive upsets as well...the Lakers and Heat were both overwhelming favorites. They went through the back to back champions, a Thunder team that won 55 games with Durant/Russ/Harden, and then the Heat.

Truly, what more is required?

People often say they won because of defense...well, if true, Dirk was definitely a part of that as he played the most minutes on the team and the defense was better with him on the court.

However, the team won off of offense in reality...in the playoffs...the Mavs had by far the best offense...it wasn't even close....and they had the 8th ranked defense.

Combine all of the above with some of the best clutch play in NBA playoffs history. I'm not sure any player has been more clutch than what Dirk did in those playoffs. A few guys, at most...have ever touched that level in close games in a tightly contested playoff run. That is somehow missed in this...the Mavs had a very slim margin of error. They would have lost series if they didn't come through and play great when it mattered most...and what is remarkable? The fact that the Mavs had a 16-5 record winning the title. It's almost impossible to do that....people have been talking about how dominant this Nuggets team was...hell, they went 16-4 and faced far easier competition overall.

If anything, it has now become under-rated both for Dirk and the team.

[DMAVS41]

Russell in '62
Wilt in '67
Jerry West in '66 & '69 (Criminally underrated postseason performer)
Kareem in '77
Walton in '77
Bird in '84 & '86
Magic in '87
MJ from '91-'93
Hakeem in '94 & '95
Shaq in '00 & '01
Duncan in '03
Wade in '06
LeBron in '09, '12, '16 & '18
Kawhi in '19
Giannis in '21
Jokic in '23

All clearly better performances than '11 Dirk IMO.

Dirk's run is somewhere in the top 20 overall.

Some of those are absolutely not "clearly" better...but I have no idea what universe we live in if one of the 20 best playoff performances ever isn't all-time great.

[1987_Lakers]

He averaged 28/8/3 (61% TS) with limited offensive help and did not have a great 2nd option either. The Mavs had two pretty massive upsets as well...the Lakers and Heat were both overwhelming favorites. They went through the back to back champions, a Thunder team that won 55 games with Durant/Russ/Harden, and then the Heat.

Truly, what more is required?

People often say they won because of defense...well, if true, Dirk was definitely a part of that as he played the most minutes on the team and the defense was better with him on the court.

However, the team won off of offense in reality...in the playoffs...the Mavs had by far the best offense...it wasn't even close....and they had the 8th ranked defense.

Combine all of the above with some of the best clutch play in NBA playoffs history. I'm not sure any player has been more clutch than what Dirk did in those playoffs. A few guys, at most...have ever touched that level in close games in a tightly contested playoff run. That is somehow missed in this...the Mavs had a very slim margin of error. They would have lost series if they didn't come through and play great when it mattered most...and what is remarkable? The fact that the Mavs had a 16-5 record winning the title. It's almost impossible to do that....people have been talking about how dominant this Nuggets team was...hell, they went 16-4 and faced far easier competition overall.

If anything, it has now become under-rated both for Dirk and the team.

Not better than than the list I posted, people don't realize how many great postseason performances previous players had. Kareem in 1977 for example was flat out dominating in the playoffs, like on 2000 Shaq level, yet we never hear about it. That's not to take away anything from Dirk, nothing wrong with a top 20 run.

[DMAVS41]

Not better than than the list I posted, people don't realize how many great postseason performances previous players had. Kareem in 1977 for example was flat out dominating in the playoffs, like on 2000 Shaq level, yet we never hear about it. That's not to take away anything from Dirk, nothing wrong with a top 20 run.

Like I said...I disagree that some of the above were "clearly" better...but I'm fine granting all of it...having one of the 20 best playoff performances in NBA history is definitely all-time great.

[ArbitraryWater]

Russell in '62
Wilt in '67
Jerry West in '66 & '69 (Criminally underrated postseason performer)
Kareem in '77
Walton in '77
Bird in '84 & '86
Magic in '87
MJ from '91-'93
Hakeem in '94 & '95
Shaq in '00 & '01
Duncan in '03
Wade in '06
LeBron in '09, '12, '16 & '18
Kawhi in '19
Giannis in '21
Jokic in '23

All clearly better performances than '11 Dirk IMO.

Dirk's run is somewhere in the top 20 overall.

Yea but how is top 20 not all time great.

No one said it was a GOAT level run.

But how could you not deem it all time great, especially when there is no way to say Dirks 11 run is lower than a few of these. It just looks like the top 10 GOATs had better runs.

[tpols]

Russell in '62
Wilt in '67
Jerry West in '66 & '69 (Criminally underrated postseason performer)
Kareem in '77
Walton in '77
Bird in '84 & '86
Magic in '87
MJ from '91-'93
Hakeem in '94 & '95
Shaq in '00 & '01
Duncan in '03
Wade in '06
LeBron in '09, '12, '16 & '18
Kawhi in '19
Giannis in '21
Jokic in '23

All clearly better performances than '11 Dirk IMO.

Dirk's run is somewhere in the top 20 overall.

Did you really just include two runs where Lebron lost as a 66 win favorite with HCA and lost by the biggest margin of all time (2018) as better than Dirks 2011 title run?

That's some serious clown shit.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did you really just include two runs where Lebron lost as a 66 win favorite with HCA and lost by the biggest margin of all time (2018) as better than Dirks 2011 title run?

That's some serious clown shit.
You equated this year Lakers team to the KD Warriors, you really have no room to be calling other peoples opinions clown shit :lol

[tpols]

You equated this year Lakers team to the KD Warriors, you really have no room to be calling other peoples opinions clown shit :lol

Getting swept and routed and losing with HCA isn't a GOAT playoff run. That's a joke. It's the only years on the list that weren't champion outside Jerry West which none of us were even born for and dint watch.

And to say it's better than Dirk taking down the Big 3 Heat?

Total joke. Yall are clowning in here.

[1987_Lakers]

Did you really just include two runs where Lebron lost as a 66 win favorite with HCA and lost by the biggest margin of all time (2018) as better than Dirks 2011 title run?

That's some serious clown shit.

'09: 35|9|7 62 TS%
'18: 34|9|9 62 TS%

You are truly a dumbass.

[1987_Lakers]

Getting swept

You completely ignore the teammates LeBron had around him and the fact that he went up against the GOAT team in the Finals.

And I find it funny how you only aply this to LeBron when I listed another guy on my list who also got swept. '77 Kareem.

A guy who averaged 35/18/4/4 in the playoffs, are we just gonna discredit that run because he got swept by a superior team?

[warriorfan]

Bron is the king of empty stats

[tpols]

You completely ignore the teammates LeBron had around him and the fact that he went up against the GOAT team in the Finals.

And I find it funny how you only imply this to LeBron, when I listed another guy on my list who also got swept. '77 Kareem.

A guy who averaged 35/18/4/4 in the playoffs, are we just gonna discredit that run because he got swept by a superior team?

That makes it even worse. You werent even alive on this planet in 1977.

It's some serious clowning to say guys who got swept and blown out had a GOAT playoff run.

Much less better than Dirks Cinderella run where he was beating super teams and icing everybody in the clutch.

Its an absurd take to have.

[1987_Lakers]

Bron is the king of empty stats

So Curry blew a 3-1 lead to a guy who put up empty stats? Yikes

[1987_Lakers]

That makes it even worse. You werent even alive on this planet in 1977.

It's some serious clowning to say guys who got swept and blown out had a GOAT playoff run. Much less better than Dirks Cinderella run where he was beating super teams and icing everybody in the clutch.

Its an absurd take to have.

I watched the '77 Lakers-Blazers series on youtube years ago, the Lakers guards couldn't even dribble the ball past half court, this isn't an exaggeration. It's honestly retarded how you can discredit someone's run for losing while not taking into account other factors like the supporting cast he had and the team he was going up against.

[tpols]

I watched the '77 Lakers-Blazers series on youtube years ago, the Lakers guards couldn't even dribble the ball past half court, this isn't an exaggeration. It's honestly retarded how you can discredit someone's run for losing while not taking into account other factors like the supporting cast he had and the team he was going up against.

The 2009 Cavs were among the title favorites with HCA. They won the most games in the NBA that year. They weren't underdogs. They lost as a favorite.

The Heat in 2011 were massive +175 favorites to win the title and the Mavs were huge +2000 underdogs. That's an upset. The context of how Dirk outplayed Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Durant back to back to back makes it even more spectacular.

To say it wasn't an all time great run makes you look dumb. Which isnt a surprising occurance.

[1987_Lakers]

The 2009 Cavs were among the title favorites with HCA. They won the most games in the NBA that year. They weren't underdogs. They lost as a favorite.

And LeBron averaged 39/8/8 in that series while his 2nd option shot 37% from the floor.

Again, use some context you gambling addict.

[DMAVS41]

You completely ignore the teammates LeBron had around him and the fact that he went up against the GOAT team in the Finals.

And I find it funny how you only aply this to LeBron when I listed another guy on my list who also got swept. '77 Kareem.

A guy who averaged 35/18/4/4 in the playoffs, are we just gonna discredit that run because he got swept by a superior team?

Interesting...do you think maybe you are ignoring the type of teammates Dirk had around him in terms of offensive support? Truly, go back and look at that roster and how they performed all year without him offensively.

They were abysmal. They were over 10 points per 100 worse on offense without Dirk in the regular season and I believe around 14 points per 100 worse in the playoffs. Not only that, but Jason Terry is objectively one of the worst 2nd options to win a title with. So, maybe, you are under-rating the offensive impact of Dirk if he can get that team to have, by far, the best offense in the playoffs while playing one of the toughest roads to the title in NBA history.

Impact goes beyond box score metrics mate...

[1987_Lakers]

Interesting...do you think maybe you are ignoring the type of teammates Dirk had around him in terms of offensive support? Truly, go back and look at that roster and how they performed all year without him offensively.

They were abysmal. They were over 10 points per 100 worse on offense without Dirk in the regular season and I believe around 14 points per 100 worse in the playoffs. Not only that, but Jason Terry is objectively one of the worst 2nd options to win a title with. So, maybe, you are under-rating the offensive impact of Dirk if he can get that team to have, by far, the best offense in the playoffs while playing one of the toughest roads to the title in NBA history.

Impact goes beyond box score metrics mate...

They for sure one of the weaker teams in terms of scoring options, but as a team overall if you take away their best player, were they really as bad as say the '09 Cavs, '94 Rockets, '03 Spurs, '18 Cavs, or the '77 Lakers? I don't think so.

[DMAVS41]

They for sure one of the weaker teams in terms of scoring options, but as a team overall if you take away their best player, were they really as bad as say the '09 Cavs, '94 Rockets, '03 Spurs, '18 Cavs, or the '77 Lakers? I don't think so.

No. I think they were better than those teams...although their ratings and 2-7 record without Dirk is pretty bad...I think they would have figured it out.

I'm not sure what point you think that is making...you aren't being consistent....you are giving other guys extra points for having a certain level of help...but don't factor that in when it comes to Dirk...you also don't seem to factor in competition.

[1987_Lakers]

No. I think they were better than those teams...although their ratings and 2-7 record without Dirk is pretty bad...I think they would have figured it out.

I'm not sure what point you think that is making...you aren't being consistent....you are giving other guys extra points for having a certain level of help...but don't factor that in when it comes to Dirk...you also don't seem to factor in competition.

I'm just basing it on individual performance. The people I listed performed better IMO as individuals.

[DMAVS41]

I'm just basing it on individual performance. The people I listed performed better IMO as individuals.

But individual performance should be reflected in the team success...or you are just going to prop guys that shoot more...even at the detriment of the team. I'm not sure why fans are so simple minded about this. You really think Dirk couldn't have just forced up 5 more shots per game? Of course he could have...but they might not have won...or winning would have been tougher. Instead of scoring 28...maybe he scores 33 or something.

Then you might rank it higher...I don't know, seems too narrow of a view.

[1987_Lakers]

But individual performance should be reflected in the team success...or you are just going to prop guys that shoot more...even at the detriment of the team. I'm not sure why fans are so simple minded about this. You really think Dirk couldn't have just forced up 5 more shots per game? Of course he could have...but they might not have won...or winning would have been tougher. Instead of scoring 28...maybe he scores 33 or something.

What? Like 7 of the guys I listed shot less than '11 Dirk. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

What? Like 7 of the guys I listed shot less than '11 Dirk. :oldlol:

I'm talking just Dirk's statline...it would be more impressive if he forced the issue, but it would have been detrimental to the team.

When you say "individual performance"...you just basically saying who had the best box score...and I think misses the true impact of many players...especially a player like Dirk.

[Reggie43]

He was kind of overrated because Rick Carlisle and his veteran teammates didnt get enough credit in their championship run.