After Jordan, who was the BEST perimeter player in the 90s?

[3ball]

It's a trash stat. If we went by ORTG then Miller would be a better offensive player than MJ, Lebron, Magic, Barkley, Durant etc.

The one who isn't bright is you for bringing up that stat in the first place.

Basketball-reference.com:



" a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html



ORtg = points produced per 100 possessions (includes assists and turnovers).. aka points per possession or efficiency per possession.. but it's harder to have good efficiency per possession as the possessions used increases (usage).. the more possessions used (usage), the harder it is to have high efficiency on those possessions (ortg)

And shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per-possession efficiency (true shooting is included in ORtg)

[RRR3]

It's a trash stat. If we went by ORTG then Miller would be a better offensive player than MJ, Lebron, Magic, Barkley, Durant etc.

The one who isn't bright is you for bringing up that stat in the first place.
He’ll probably tell you Miller is better than LeBron on offense tbh.

[1987_Lakers]

Basketball-reference.com:



" a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html



ORtg = points produced per 100 possessions (includes assists and turnovers).. aka points per possession or efficiency per possession.. but it's harder to have good efficiency per possession as the possessions used increases (usage).. the more possessions used (usage), the harder it is to have high efficiency on those possessions (ortg)

And shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per-possession efficiency (true shooting is included in ORtg)

'94 postseason Grant had a an ORTG of 126 and usage of 18.

In the '09 postseason, Gasol had a 124 ORTG with a usuage of 18.8.

Was Grant a better offensive player than Gasol during that time? Hell no, Grant averaged 16/7/3 in that postseason compared to Gasol's 18/11/3, on the eye test alone we know Gasol could actually create for himself in the post on a consistent basis and was a very good passer, Grant was never as skilled as Gasol.

[3ball]

'94 postseason Grant had a an ORTG of 126 and usage of 18.

In the '09 postseason, Gasol had a 124 ORTG with a usuage of 18.8.



94' Grant was equal or better than 09' Gasol for that short stretch of 1st and 2nd Rd, while Gasol played better teams by making in conference finals and Finals..

But Grant led the bulls in WS/48 (0.206) in those Playoffs, while Pippen was 4th (0.149) behind Kukoc and Armstrong - they were all outplaying their matchup more than Pippen, thereby contributing more to wins

But even though Grant had an 11-game playoff run that posted better stats than Gasol's 20-game run in 09', Gasol is still a far better player overall or for their careers.. it's not uncommon for an inferior player's peak to match the lows of others

[1987_Lakers]

94' Grant was equal or better than 09' Gasol for that short stretch of 1st and 2nd Rd, while Gasol played better teams by making in conference finals and Finals..

But Grant led the bulls in WS/48 (0.206) in those Playoffs, while Pippen was 4th (0.149) behind Kukoc and Armstrong - they were all outplaying their matchup more than Pippen, thereby contributing more to wins

But even though Grant had an 11-game playoff run that posted better stats than Gasol's 20-game run in 09', Gasol is still a far better player overall or for their careers.. it's not uncommon for an inferior player's peak to match the lows of others

Kiki Vandeweghe career ORTG: 119
Larry Bird career ORTG: 115

Kiki career usage: 24
Bird career usage: 26.5

So Kiki is a better offensive player than Bird?

[bizil]

From a GOAT level for the 90's (who had the best resume in the decade not entirety of career), u gotta go Pippen. With Stockton and Drexler after that. All three were superstar or All Star caliber players for the entire decade pretty much. From a peak-prime level, it gets more interesting. But I think u gotta go G Hill or Drexler. G Hill was a 6 time All Star and 5 time All NBA BEFORE the injuries started robbing him in 2000-2001. G Hill and Drexler came the closest to having MJ's blend of great scoring, great athletic ability, and great all around ability as a package in the 90's. With Penny there too, but didn't have enough years under his belt being a great player in that decade.

[3ball]

Kiki Vandeweghe career ORTG: 119
Larry Bird career ORTG: 115

Kiki career usage: 24
Bird career usage: 26.5

So Kiki is a better offensive player than Bird?

2.5% higher usage equals 3 possessions a game for a 100 pace game

How many close games would a player win if he used 3 more possessions at high efficiency like Bird did compared to Kiki?

For example, lebron EASILY wins Game 1 of the 18' Finals if he uses 3 more possessions at great efficiency like MJ did for his playoff career.. that's why mj is goat - he used the most possessions at higher efficiency than any wing

Btw, kiki was an all-time level scorer, and only a little behind bird at scoring, so you make my point with each example... Keep em' coming... Usage/ortg is possibly the biggest indicator of dominance

[1987_Lakers]

2.5% higher usage equals 3 possessions a game for a 100 pace game

How many close games would a player win if he used 3 more possessions at high efficiency like Bird did compared to Kiki?

For example, lebron EASILY wins Game 1 of the 18' Finals if he uses 3 more possessions at great efficiency like MJ did for his playoff career.. that's why mj is goat - he used the most possessions at higher efficiency than any wing

Btw, kiki was an all-time level scorer, and only a little behind bird at scoring, so you make my point with each example... Keep em' coming... Usage/ortg is possibly the biggest indicator of dominance

And Kiki still has a 4 point edge over Bird in ORTG, meaning if they had the same usage, they would have nearly a identical ORTG, which is absolutely flawed.

Unfortunately, that stat doesn't factor in passing, something Bird was all-time great at. If it did, LeBron's ORTG would be superior to MJ considering he is a much better passer.

Keep em coming.

[Rico2016]

And Kiki still has a 4 point edge over Bird in ORTG, meaning if they had the same usage, they would have nearly a identical ORTG, which is absolutely flawed.

Unfortunately, that stat doesn't factor in passing, something Bird was all-time great at. If it did, LeBron's ORTG would be superior to MJ considering he is a much better passer.

Keep em coming.

Decimation

I've never seen 3ball get man handled this badly in a long while, the last one to bully him this easily was TheCorporation.

[3ball]

And Kiki still has a 4 point edge over Bird in ORTG, meaning if they had the same usage, they would have nearly a identical ORTG, which is absolutely flawed.

Unfortunately, that stat doesn't factor in passing, something Bird was all-time great at. If it did, LeBron's ORTG would be superior to MJ considering he is a much better passer.

Keep em coming.

Again, kiki was an all-time scorer and close to bird - the numbers totally make sense

And ORtg factors in assists and turnovers.. so try again

It measures points produced per 100 possessions including assists and turnovers

MJ produced more per possession, for more possessions... Sometimes for a lot more possessions.. there's numerous seasons or series where MJ has 10 points higher usage - so he's using 20 more possessions per game at higher efficiency

[1987_Lakers]

Again, kiki was an all-time scorer and close to bird - the numbers totally make sense

And ORtg factors in assists and turnovers.. so try again

It measures points produced per 100 possessions including assists and turnovers

MJ produced more per possession, for more possessions... Sometimes for a lot more possessions.. there's numerous seasons or series where MJ has 10 points higher usage - so he's using 20 more possessions per game at higher efficiency

You are right, it does factor in assists. But you don't see the inconsistencies in that stat? The Bird & Kiki comparison in particular is completely comical.

Lets look at Jimmy Butler. Butler had a 26.5 usage in 2017 with a 123 ORTG

Bird's usage for his '84 MVP year was 26.7 and had a 115 ORTG, 8 points below Butler. :oldlol:

You don't see the inconsistencies in that stat? An All-star player who's team didn't even make the playoffs has a higher ORTG than the best player in the NBA in 1984.

[Roundball_Rock]

94' Grant was equal or better than 09' Gasol for that short stretch of 1st and 2nd Rd

:roll:

Gasol was 19/11/2 on 55% through two rounds in 09' and contributing more value via the eye test. As to Grant, his numbers are below.


they were all outplaying their matchup more than Pippen

Fact check:

Pippen vs. Smith: 22/8/5 41% vs. 8/3/1 48% for Smith
Pippen vs. Phills: 25/10/4 49% vs. 7/5/2 38% for Phills

Grant vs. Oakley: 17/3/3 51% vs. 13/11/2 51% for Oakley
Grant vs. Higgins: 15/10/2 49% vs. 4/1/1 36% for Higgins

Armstrong vs. Harper: Harper got ejected and suspended so we can't compare
Armstrong vs. Price: 12/2/1 56% vs. 15/2/5 35% for Price

So, as usual, 3 ball's statement is false. 3ball indirectly conceded the Bulls were so stacked that they were beating their counterparts on other playoff teams badly (Price was their #1 option so those are terrible numbers for a #1, while BJ was #3 for CHI). :bowdown:

Kukoc was a bench player but let's compare him to the other team's 6th man:

Kukoc vs. Mason: 9/3/3 40% vs. 9/6/3 57%
Kukoc vs. Mills: 11/6/5 55% vs. 17/8/3 50%

Kukoc is the only who lost his match ups.

[2ball]

John Stockton is up there as well. People forget just how close the Jazz were to eliminating the Bulls. In Game 6 of the 1997 NBA Finals, Stockton sets up Shandon Anderson for a layup that would have put Utah ahead by 2 with 30 seconds to go. Scottie Pippen clearly grabbed the rim and could have been whistled for goaltending, but no call was made.

On the next possession, Steve Kerr won the series.

[LoneyROY7]

Based on ORTG, the legendary Reggie Miller has had multiple better seasons than MJ.

What an illuminating stat. :oldlol:

[3ball]

You are right, it does factor in assists. But you don't see the inconsistencies in that stat? The Bird & Kiki comparison in particular is completely comical.

Lets look at Jimmy Butler. Butler had a 26.5 usage in 2017 with a 123 ORTG

Bird's usage for his '84 MVP year was 26.7 and had a 115 ORTG, 8 points below Butler. :oldlol:

You don't see the inconsistencies in that stat? An All-star player who's team didn't even make the playoffs has a higher ORTG than the best player in the NBA in 1984.

I think you're picking 2 all-nba scorers - kiki/bird or bird/butler - and cherry-picking or matching up their best year's with the other's worst

So Butler had the team to himself, but could only muster a 26 usage?... oldlol:

Bird was on a stacked team but still adding crazy value with a 26 usage without reducing anyone else'

But again, you cherry-picked to get a lower usage player (butler) to match higher-usage bird

[3ball]

John Stockton is up there as well. People forget just how close the Jazz were to eliminating the Bulls. In Game 6 of the 1997 NBA Finals, Stockton sets up Shandon Anderson for a layup that would have put Utah ahead by 2 with 30 seconds to go. Scottie Pippen clearly grabbed the rim and could have been whistled for goaltending, but no call was made.

On the next possession, Steve Kerr won the series.

Great point

Pippen with another legendary choke, this time in the 97' Finals.. i have to go back and see if there's a gif to be made.. i do remember shandon missing the would-be bunny

[RRR3]

Great point

Pippen with another legendary choke, this time in the 97' Finals
Talking to yourself?

[1987_Lakers]

I think you're picking 2 all-nba scorers - kiki/bird or bird/butler - and cherry-picking or matching up their best year's with the other's worst

So Butler had the team to himself, but could only muster a 26 usage?... oldlol:

Bird was on a stacked team but still adding crazy value with a 26 usage without reducing anyone else'

But again, you cherry-picked to get a lower usage player (butler) to match higher-usage bird

That's the problem with these advance stats, they don't give you full context. The best way to judge players is through the eye test, always was and always will. In no way was 2017 Jimmy Butler a better offensive player than '84 Larry Bird, are you kidding me? I can keep going...

2018 Anthony Davis - 119 ORTG & 30% usage
2000 Shaq - 115 ORTG & 31% usage

Yes, 2018 Anthony Davis who couldn't lead his team to 50 wins has a higher ORTG than peak Shaq who many consider had a top 5 peak EVER!!! The same Shaq who won MVP & Finals MVP in dominating fashion. You can stick with these advanced stats all you want, I'll continue to watch the games and use logic when breaking down players.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

That's the problem with these advance stats, they don't give you full context. The best way to judge players is through the eye test, always was and always will. In no way was 2017 Jimmy Butler a better offensive player than '84 Larry Bird, are you kidding me? I can keep going...

2018 Anthony Davis - 119 ORTG & 30% usage
2000 Shaq - 115 ORTG & 31% usage

Yes, 2018 Anthony Davis who couldn't lead his team to 50 wins has a higher ORTG than peak Shaq who many consider had a top 5 peak EVER!!! The same Shaq who won MVP & Finals MVP in dominating fashion. You can stick with these advanced stats all you want, I'll continue to watch the games and use logic when breaking down players.

Shaq had Kobe Bryant for a teammate when Anthony Davis didn’t have anyone.

[1987_Lakers]

Shaq had Kobe Bryant for a teammate when Anthony Davis didn’t have anyone.
And?

[RRR3]

And?
It's warriorfan. He's been reduced to posting on his alt since his main got banned. Again.

[1987_Lakers]

It's warriorfan. He's been reduced to posting on his alt since his main got banned. Again.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

That's the problem with these advance stats, they don't give you full context. The best way to judge players is through the eye test, always was and always will. In no way was 2017 Jimmy Butler a better offensive player than '84 Larry Bird, are you kidding me? I can keep going...

2018 Anthony Davis - 119 ORTG & 30% usage
2000 Shaq - 115 ORTG & 31% usage

Yes, 2018 Anthony Davis who couldn't lead his team to 50 wins has a higher ORTG than peak Shaq who many consider had a top 5 peak EVER!!! The same Shaq who won MVP & Finals MVP in dominating fashion. You can stick with these advanced stats all you want, I'll continue to watch the games and use logic when breaking down players.

This is why style matters - Davis finishes as many possessions as Shaq, but the way he's doing it isn't wearing the defense down (so the opponent is fresh for offense), and he infact is being bird-fed most of those buckets

So you have to be wary of ineffective brands that accumulate stats - winning ultimately decides between effective stats and empty stats.. the reality is that lebron can get a 37 PER with 0.400 ws/48 and lose as the favorite!!!!... Stats don't matter with that guy because he isn't playing to win obviously.. his brand amounts to a drill to get himself stats - winning only happens with enough extra talent to offset the horrible brand

Assist % is a negative factor of lebron.. high scorers AND assist guys don't win - it's too easy to guard 1 guy making all the plays, then 5 guys moving the ball.. ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

[Roundball_Rock]

It's warriorfan. He's been reduced to posting on his alt since his main got banned. Again.

Who is the league leader in bans? Warriorfan or Coach/Samurai/etc.?


Talking to yourself?

:lol

Re the 97' finals, MJ called Pippen the co-MVP of the series. Pippen, as usual, outplayed Stockton in the series (although Stockton showed up in 97', unlike in 98').