If MJ's career stats were identical except he never won any rings

[Shogon]

Your ranking of him would change by a lot. Like a lot a lot. Imagine MJ's career stats were identical except he had 0 rings and never even made the Finals. Your ranking would change. Hence you're only truly evaluating him on championships. Hence it's selective enforcement of your core reasoning for ranking him so high because you don't have Bill Russell as the GOAT.

The fact st that had the Bulls not put very solid teams around Jordan he would have retired ringless and he would not be anyone's GOAT.

What I'm really saying is that you, you reading this? You're retarded.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Your ranking of him would change by a lot. Like a lot a lot. Imagine MJ's career stats were identical except he had 0 rings and never even made the Finals. Your ranking would change. Hence you're only truly evaluating him on championships. Hence it's selective enforcement of your core reasoning for ranking him so high because you don't have Bill Russell as the GOAT.

The fact it that had the Bulls not put very solid teams around Jordan he would have retired ringless and he would not be anyone's GOAT.

What I'm really saying is that you, you reading this? You're retarded.

Jordan has had the best mix of statistics, accolades, and winning. If you watch him play you can see how great he is too. The Jordan documentary showed me a lot about him. I’m watching it again right now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Exactly.

And its plausible, too.

People dont wanna believe how much is out of a players hands.

Say Worthy is fully healthy in 91', goes off averaging 24 and Magic does so as well.

They already have HCA, they win G3 in OT.

Its one shot.

Say in '92 the Bulls dont recover a 15 pt deficit in the 4th quarter of game 6 with MJ on the bench.

Comes down to a single game.

'93 is easy. Oakley blocked 4 times at the basket with semi-fouls in there, all not called?

Suns leaving Paxson open, only up 2 cause a 3 was called a 2?

People really dont wanna hear it.

Its invincible and undefeated and total control for them. 6/6...

evaluate play/level first and foremost.

[Lebron23]

Exactly.

And its plausible, too.

People dont wanna believe how much is out of a players hands.

Say Worthy is fully healthy in 91', goes off averaging 24 and Magic does so as well.

They already have HCA, they win G3 in OT.

Its one shot.

Say in '92 the Bulls dont recover a 15 pt deficit in the 4th quarter of game 6 with MJ on the bench.

Comes down to a single game.

'93 is easy. Oakley blocked 4 times at the basket with semi-fouls in there, all not called?

Suns leaving Paxson open, only up 2 cause a 3 was called a 2?

People really dont wanna hear it.

Its invincible and undefeated and total control for them. 6/6...

evaluate play/level first and foremost.

Great Posts. Jordan with no rings would still be a top 11-15 players of all time.

[ZenMaster7210]

Your ranking of him would change by a lot. Like a lot a lot. Imagine MJ's career stats were identical except he had 0 rings and never even made the Finals. Your ranking would change. Hence you're only truly evaluating him on championships. Hence it's selective enforcement of your core reasoning for ranking him so high because you don't have Bill Russell as the GOAT.

The fact st that had the Bulls not put very solid teams around Jordan he would have retired ringless and he would not be anyone's GOAT.

What I'm really saying is that you, you reading this? You're retarded.

Triggered Lebron Stan right here. MJ has it all that is why he is GOAT. Nobody can touch him, deal with it kid.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Exactly.

And its plausible, too.

People dont wanna believe how much is out of a players hands.

Say Worthy is fully healthy in 91', goes off averaging 24 and Magic does so as well.

They already have HCA, they win G3 in OT.

Its one shot.

Say in '92 the Bulls dont recover a 15 pt deficit in the 4th quarter of game 6 with MJ on the bench.

Comes down to a single game.

'93 is easy. Oakley blocked 4 times at the basket with semi-fouls in there, all not called?

Suns leaving Paxson open, only up 2 cause a 3 was called a 2?

People really dont wanna hear it.

Its invincible and undefeated and total control for them. 6/6...

evaluate play/level first and foremost.

What I learned from the Jordan documentary is that he never underperformed in the Finals. He never had moments like LeBron in 2007 and 2011 where if he performed at his regular season level he would have won. I still think LeBron is the best because he has made it to so many Finals and has the best stats. I’m watching the Jordan documentary again and some other videos to see if they change my mind.

[3ball]

Your premise of MJ not winning is impossible because of the efficiency factor

If a player uses more possessions than anyone else, at higher efficiency per possession than anyone else, then they're guaranteed victory if they get minimal help.. indeed, MJ won with the lowest scoring casts ever

Regarding the Lebron/MJ debate - Lebron's usage deficit meant that MJ used about 3 more possessions per game, at higher efficiency per possession

Wouldn't lebron win a lot more close games if he was using an extra 3 possessions a game at better efficiency?

That's why mj is goat - he used more possessions at better efficiency than any wing ever.. and btw, there's many spots where MJ's usage was 10 points higher, which would mean he used about 20 more possessions

[ArbitraryWater]

What I learned from the Jordan documentary is that he never underperformed in the Finals. He never had moments like LeBron in 2007 and 2011 where if he performed at his regular season level he would have won. I still think LeBron is the best because he has made it to so many Finals and has the best stats. I’m watching the Jordan documentary again and some other videos to see if they change my mind.

He did though.

He underperformed in '96.

He was mediocre in '98, players who played far better than MJ in '98 have lost finals. Many.

Even '97 in which he was clutch, what if Kerr doesnt hit?

What if the refs dont miss the blatant Pippen goaltend the possession before that, giving Utah a 2 pt lead?

It all went MJ's way, and people suck it up.

[FultzNationRISE]

What I learned from the Jordan documentary is that he never underperformed in the Finals. He never had moments like LeBron in 2007 and 2011 where if he performed at his regular season level he would have won. I still think LeBron is the best because he has made it to so many Finals and has the best stats. I’m watching the Jordan documentary again and some other videos to see if they change my mind.


I agree MJ never had moments like 2007 Lebron in the Finals because MJ was never able to get a team to a finals at that age.

But as far as 2011, Lebron did struggle to adapt to Wade randomly forcing the first option issue. If theyd had a HOF coach like a Doug Collins or a Phil Jackson it might have been just the right mentoring Lebron needed to approach the situation from a better perspective. Unfortunately Lebron’s never had a HOF coach :(

[Monta Ellis MVP]

He did though.

He underperformed in '96.

He was mediocre in '98, players who played far better than MJ in '98 have lost finals. Many.

Even '97 in which he was clutch, what if Kerr doesnt hit?

What if the refs dont miss the blatant Pippen goaltend the possession before that, giving Utah a 2 pt lead?

It all went MJ's way, and people suck it up.

You have a good point. MJ was really lucky a lot of those times. I have LeBron as the GOAT too.


I agree MJ never had moments like 2007 Lebron in the Finals because MJ was never able to get a team to a finals at that age.

But as far as 2011, Lebron did struggle to adapt to Wade randomly forcing the first option issue. If theyd had a HOF coach like a Doug Collins or a Phil Jackson it might have been just the right mentoring Lebron needed to approach the situation from a better perspective. Unfortunately Lebron’s never had a HOF coach :(

Excuse me but I really do not like to go into the deets of 2011. I think you can understand.

[FultzNationRISE]

Excuse me but I really do not like to go into the deets of 2011. I think you can understand.


Ah. Youre a Wade stan.

I understand completely.

[3ball]

LeBron is the best because he has made it to so many Finals




You needed a juggernaut to win the East in the 80's - weak teams like the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs or 09' Magic wouldn't cut it.. so lebron formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak - a manufactured streak via "the decision" to stack deck in weak conference





and has the best stats



^^^ Only longevity - who cares if a guy plays at a LOWER level for longer... Means nothing..

The highest level is what matters, and Jordan wins all the rate of production stats, aka PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons..

Ultimately, MJ averaged 5 more per game on better efficiency per possession in the playoffs - there's never been a player that did that who wasn't considered easily better

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Ah. Youre a Wade stan.

I understand completely.

NO WAY. Wade is a known bully. In fact I blame him for 2011 because he kept bullying LeBron. LeBron does not respond well to bullying and Wade should have known this.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FocusedUniqueBorderterrier-size_restricted.gif



You needed a juggernaut to win the East in the 80's - weak teams like the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs or 09' Magic wouldn't cut it.. so lebron formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak - a manufactured streak via "the decision" to stack deck in weak conference



^^^ Only longevity - who cares if a guy plays at a LOWER level for longer... Means nothing..

The highest level is what matters, and Jordan wins all the rate of production stats, aka PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons..

Ultimately, MJ averaged 5 more per game on better efficiency per possession in the playoffs - there's never been a player that did that who wasn't considered easily better

I am learning more about Michael Jordan. What about Scottie Pippen? Wasn’t Jordan lucky playing with him? He was a good teammate and never tried to bully Jordan. What player today would you compare Scottie Pippen too?

[Roundball_Rock]

What I learned from the Jordan documentary is that he never underperformed in the Finals. He never had moments like LeBron in 2007 and 2011 where if he performed at his regular season level he would have won. I still think LeBron is the best because he has made it to so many Finals and has the best stats. I’m watching the Jordan documentary again and some other videos to see if they change my mind.

He did, the documentary just glossed over them. It is true, though, that MJ and KAJ had extremely high floors. For instance, the 96' finals was MJ's worst while Kobe was winning his only FMVP's putting up the same numbers.

The 2011 loss largely is on LeBron (Bosh gets a pass for getting outplayed badly by Dirk) but there is nothing LeBron could have done about 2007. It is arguable no other player but LeBron would have even gotten that team that far.

[Soundwave]

"If Victoria Secret models weren't good looking and fat I bet your opinion of them would change"

... OK. And?

[ArbitraryWater]

"If Victoria Secret models weren't good looking and fat I bet your opinion of them would change"

... OK. And?

except, MJ isnt changing.

Your interpretation basically just exposed your entire mindset.

Well played, OP.

[tpols]

it's a stupidly impossible proposition since MJ produced at such a high level above his peers that the only way he could never win is if he had less than no help for his entire career.

he was a hair away from winning with "migraine" pippen putting up all time bad production.

[Phoenix]

If Russell's career stats were identical except he never won any rings, where's that leave him in the GOAT conversation? Or am I the only one who thinks that's the obvious counter-question?

[FKAri]

He'd still be the best to ever do it in my eyes. I've always tried to factor out circumstance from a player's career as much as possible.

[ArbitraryWater]

If Russell's career stats were identical except he never won any rings, where's that leave him in the GOAT conversation? Or am I the only one who thinks that's the obvious counter-question?

Why do you see it as „counter“

[3ball]

NO WAY. Wade is a known bully. In fact I blame him for 2011 because he kept bullying LeBron. LeBron does not respond well to bullying and Wade should have known this.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FocusedUniqueBorderterrier-size_restricted.gif




I am learning more about Michael Jordan. What about Scottie Pippen? Wasn’t Jordan lucky playing with him? He was a good teammate and never tried to bully Jordan. What player today would you compare Scottie Pippen too?

Pippen didn't relieve MJ in passing because MJ averaged equal assists and more assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Pip didn't relieve MJ in defense because MJ had to get more dpoy votes every year

Pip didn't relieve MJ in scoring obviously

Pip didn't relieve mj in enforcement, since MJ saved Pippen from X-man in 92 ECF

So pip didn't relieve MJ in any area

[Phoenix]

Why do you see it as „counter“

I thought that would be obvious within the context of what I said. If you removed Russell's championships, hell remove all the GOAT players rings, where does he fit into the picture GOAT-wise?

For me personally, I've never harped too much on MJ's championships. I don't do the whole '6-0' thing. Winning a championship re-enforces greatness, it doesn't define it.

[FultzNationRISE]

He'd still be the best to ever do it in my eyes. I've always tried to factor out circumstance from a player's career as much as possible.


Okay, well, that's fine. You and Madonna can just agree to disagree.

[FKAri]

"If Victoria Secret models weren't good looking and fat I bet your opinion of them would change"

... OK. And?

More like if Victoria Secret models weren't officially Victoria Secret models.

[light]

Your ranking of him would change by a lot. Like a lot a lot. Imagine MJ's career stats were identical except he had 0 rings and never even made the Finals. Your ranking would change. Hence you're only truly evaluating him on championships. Hence it's selective enforcement of your core reasoning for ranking him so high because you don't have Bill Russell as the GOAT.

The fact st that had the Bulls not put very solid teams around Jordan he would have retired ringless and he would not be anyone's GOAT.

What I'm really saying is that you, you reading this? You're retarded.

This is mostly true, but the curious thing about players like Jordan and LeBron is that both of them already had GOAT support before they even won.

That's kind of how you know you're dealing with a true GOAT candidate. The rumblings begin before they win anything.

[theman93]

I thought that would be obvious within the context of what I said. If you removed Russell's championships, hell remove all the GOAT players rings, where does he fit into the picture GOAT-wise?

For me personally, I've never harped too much on MJ's championships. I don't do the whole '6-0' thing. Winning a championship re-enforces greatness, it doesn't define it.

When players are statistically close, championships and Finals MVP’s are ultimately the deciding factor. Jordan’s 6-0 record in the Finals is on such a pedestal not just because it’s an undefeated record, but also because he was the MVP in all 6 Finals.

[knicksman]

the reason why MJ is a winner coz hes the exact opposite of bron. He has the skill that matter the most for a 1st option(clutch scoring) and hes unselfish/willing to share stats for the betterment of the team. Lebron doesnt have the skill that matter the most so he knows hes not winning and the only way he could compete with jordan is through stats. Thats why he will never give up his stats for the betterment of the team. And that my friend is why jordan is a winner and lebron a loser. Yeah lebron is a winner in terms of not retiring ringless just like durant but hes a loser in terms of GOATness. His rings are only as valuable as 3rd option rings thats why players have kobe over him so keep crying.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Jordan could of load managed every title during the regular season and still would be considered GOAT. Playoff runs are what matters most, otherwise you would see people naming Karl Malone as a top 5 GOAT.

[Naero]

No one needs to tout his championships for his GOAT case. Those who actually followed and studied Jordan's career intensively can formulate much better arguments, and there's no need to strawman them about championships just because some pro-Jordan millennials regurgitate "6-0."

Obviously, his ranking would nosedive if you stripped his rings since modern legacy-assessors overvalue accolades, but if you applied the same standard to everyone else? Most would still choose him as the GOAT, simply because he's arguably the most dominant playoffs-performer of all time. That's what the pre-Information Age GOAT conversation centered around: not meretricious accolades like rings, but individual dominance—and many anointed Jordan for that reason before he even won his first title.

[jstern]

He was consider the greatest ever before he won his first championship. When the arguments weren't a simplistic X > Y like it is today. But it would affect him in the future, a combination of the internet era and those who never saw him.

Having said that, the rings are just an outcome of the things that made Jordan so great. Flu game to help finish the series in 6, 98 and running on fumes and preventing a game 7 on Utah with an injured Scottie Pippen. What made people say that he was the GOAT before he won his first ring is made the 6 rings possible.

[Jordan96]

Pippen didn't relieve MJ in passing because MJ averaged equal assists and more assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Pip didn't relieve MJ in defense because MJ had to get more dpoy votes every year

Pip didn't relieve MJ in scoring obviously

Pip didn't relieve mj in enforcement, since MJ saved Pippen from X-man in 92 ECF

So pip didn't relieve MJ in any area
What did Kyrie/Wade relieve LeBron in?

[ELITEpower23]

Pippen didn't relieve MJ in passing because MJ averaged equal assists and more assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Pip didn't relieve MJ in defense because MJ had to get more dpoy votes every year

Pip didn't relieve MJ in scoring obviously

Pip didn't relieve mj in enforcement, since MJ saved Pippen from X-man in 92 ECF

So pip didn't relieve MJ in any area

Leader in following stats for 6 championship runs

Pts: MJ
Rebs: Pip
Ast: Pip
Stls: Pip
Blks: Pip

Are we just blatantly lying now? Ok, at that rate then

LBJ has more rings than MJ.

[Phoenix]

When players are statistically close, championships and Finals MVP’s are ultimately the deciding factor. Jordan’s 6-0 record in the Finals is on such a pedestal not just because it’s an undefeated record, but also because he was the MVP in all 6 Finals.

I'm just trying to figure out where the OP thinks Russell lands if you took away his championships. Like still obviously all time great, but taking away every great players championships would or should detract from their legacy. The question is, whose resumes and overall credentials ( including oncourt ability) best holds up to scrutiny if you take away championships.

[guy]

These threads are always funny to me. It’s like the star player just puts up numbers and has nothing to do with his team winning or not.

[LAL]

He still would've been the more spectacular, dangerous, smarter and skillful player.

[3ball]

What did Kyrie/Wade relieve LeBron in?

Scoring - they gave lebron an equal scoring partner and closer that used equal possessions and commanded a double

Pippen never commanded any attention and forced MJ to average 10-20 more to win every Finals, and use nearly twice as many possessions

[RRR3]

Scoring - they gave lebron an equal scoring partner and closer that used equal possessions and commanded a double

Pippen never commanded any attention and forced MJ to average 10-20 more to win every Finals, and use nearly twice as many possessions
Stretching the definition of "equal" there quite a bit. Roundball literally gave you an article that talked about Pippen being doubled from the 90s earlier. He never faced any attention doe.

[3ball]

Stretching the definition of "equal" there quite a bit. Roundball literally gave you an article that talked about Pippen being doubled from the 90s earlier. He never faced any attention doe.


Jordan scored 10-20 more than sidekick for all Finals, compared to 2-5 for lebron

And lebron's sidekick uses nearly the same amount of possessions:



Usage in Playoffs, Finals


Lebron 2016 - 30.7, 33.4
Kyrie... 2016 - 30.4, 30.9

Lebron. 2013 - 29.2, 29.7
D Wade 2013 - 25.3, 28.5

Lebron. 2012 - 33.4, 32.0
D Wade 2012 - 29.9, 29.2

Jordan. 1992 - 37.1, 35.9
Pippen. 1992 - 23.6, 25.3


So Lebron needs an equal-scoring and usage sidekick to win, and a closer, while MJ scores 10-30 more than his sidekick in every series, with 50% more usage and all closing duties.

[Overdrive]

Your ranking of him would change by a lot. Like a lot a lot. Imagine MJ's career stats were identical except he had 0 rings and never even made the Finals. Your ranking would change. Hence you're only truly evaluating him on championships. Hence it's selective enforcement of your core reasoning for ranking him so high because you don't have Bill Russell as the GOAT.

The fact st that had the Bulls not put very solid teams around Jordan he would have retired ringless and he would not be anyone's GOAT.

What I'm really saying is that you, you reading this? You're retarded.


If Russell's career stats were identical except he never won any rings, where's that leave him in the GOAT conversation? Or am I the only one who thinks that's the obvious counter-question?

Of course any player's ranking would change. Singling out Jordan won't work well, because if you strip him off his rings, but everything else stays the same he's in the Barkley, Malone - greatest ringless player - range. Russell? He'd be in the Thurmond - the other guys from Wilt's era - range.

Russell's rank is solely based on rings, whereas the other top 10 players are ranked by combinations of rings, stats and skills.

[2ball]

Your premise of MJ not winning is impossible because of the efficiency factor

If a player uses more possessions than anyone else, at higher efficiency per possession than anyone else, then they're guaranteed victory if they get minimal help.. indeed, MJ won with the lowest scoring casts ever

Regarding the Lebron/MJ debate - Lebron's usage deficit meant that MJ used about 3 more possessions per game, at higher efficiency per possession

Wouldn't lebron win a lot more close games if he was using an extra 3 possessions a game at better efficiency?

That's why mj is goat - he used more possessions at better efficiency than any wing ever.. and btw, there's many spots where MJ's usage was 10 points higher, which would mean he used about 20 more possessions

Well said. Thread didn’t need to continue after this post

[2ball]

MJ had goat scoring efficiency on goat volume and lockdown defense on the other end. Goat two-way player. This hypothetical is impossible because MJ would breakthrough by shear domination.

[HoopsNY]

He did, the documentary just glossed over them. It is true, though, that MJ and KAJ had extremely high floors. For instance, the 96' finals was MJ's worst while Kobe was winning his only FMVP's putting up the same numbers.

The 2011 loss largely is on LeBron (Bosh gets a pass for getting outplayed badly by Dirk) but there is nothing LeBron could have done about 2007. It is arguable no other player but LeBron would have even gotten that team that far.

Even with that being said, it doesn't excuse the way he played in that finals. And let's not forget that games 3 and 4 were decided by a total of 4 points. So while they did get swept, the games were a lot closer than a sweep would indicate and Lebron's consistent turnovers, particularly late in games, were really costly. If I'm not mistaken, he may have set the record for turnovers per game for an NBA finals that series.

[Overdrive]

He did, the documentary just glossed over them. It is true, though, that MJ and KAJ had extremely high floors. For instance, the 96' finals was MJ's worst while Kobe was winning his only FMVP's putting up the same numbers.

The 2011 loss largely is on LeBron (Bosh gets a pass for getting outplayed badly by Dirk) but there is nothing LeBron could have done about 2007. It is arguable no other player but LeBron would have even gotten that team that far.

How would guys like Hakeem etc not get past the Wallaceless Pistons? The 2007 east wasn't really tough.

[Phoenix]

Of course any player's ranking would change. Singling out Jordan won't work well, because if you strip him off his rings, but everything else stays the same he's in the Barkley, Malone - greatest ringless player - range. Russell? He'd be in the Thurmond - the other guys from Wilt's era - range.

Russell's rank is solely based on rings, whereas the other top 10 players are ranked by combinations of rings, stats and skills.

I don't think MJ even falls that low without the rings. Oscar and West are routinely ranked in the top 12-13. MJ is viewed both individually better, as in oncourt process, and has more singular accolades(MVPs, scoring titles, all nba/defense, DPOY). If you removed all the top ten players rings? His name would still be prominently featured in the GOAT conversation. The thing is, many people arguing for MJ have become bad at doing so just by focusing on ring count. The guy has so many other achievements to center on. His championships are never the first thing I bring up.

You nailed the point I was alluding to. Russell having his rings removed drops him much further down the list than doing the same to MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

When players are statistically close, championships and Finals MVP’s are ultimately the deciding factor. Jordan’s 6-0 record in the Finals is on such a pedestal not just because it’s an undefeated record, but also because he was the MVP in all 6 Finals.

to an idiot, maybe.

[RogueBorg]

Russell's rank is solely based on rings, whereas the other top 10 players are ranked by combinations of rings, stats and skills.

Russell's also regarded as one of the best defenders, rebounders, and shot blockers in NBA history. Didn't do much on offense, but I've been told he had other teammates handling the scoring load.

[Lebron23]

Russell's also regarded as one of the best defenders, rebounders, and shot blockers in NBA history. Didn't do much on offense, but I've been told he had other teammates handling the scoring load.

Russell could have been a 6x nba finals mvp if they were giving the awards pre 1969.

[Big164]

As someone who watched Jordan in the late 80’s, He was being crowned the greatest long before he ever won a title, and people were calling him undisputed after his 3rd ring and first retirement.

He had like a 32 ppg career average. Those are Wilt Chamberlain type numbers no one thought would ever be seen again. MJ was a 6’6 Wilt. Then he became a 6’6 Wilt with 6 rings.

[StrongLurk]

I would have MJ as the best player ever, even with zero rings. The reason is, if MJ DID retire with zero rings, it would mean he would have some of the worst supporting casts in the league for his entire career...like bottom 8-10 supporting casts. It would be like if Lebron never left Cleveland from his first stint...and played with the same level of talent he played with then. That would probably mean zero rings for Lebron.

Of course, MJ would show that he was the best player in the league pretty much every year and would also show that he would be the best player in every playoff series, regardless of win/lose.

[StrongLurk]

He did, the documentary just glossed over them. It is true, though, that MJ and KAJ had extremely high floors. For instance, the 96' finals was MJ's worst while Kobe was winning his only FMVP's putting up the same numbers.

The 2011 loss largely is on LeBron (Bosh gets a pass for getting outplayed badly by Dirk) but there is nothing LeBron could have done about 2007. It is arguable no other player but LeBron would have even gotten that team that far.

I agree with you on a lot of things, but the bolded is completely wrong. I'm a big Lebron fan, but his 07 run is highly overrated. He was better in 06 than 07 and Lebron played TERRIBLE in the 07 finals. It's not about win/lose against those Spurs...he played like total crap. He doesn't have an excuse for playing that bad because he faced double/triple teams against EVERY playoff team in 06 and 07...so why was he good every other series but then played like crap in the 07 finals? I totally believe that 07 Kobe could have taken those Cavs to the finals, and while he would have lost against the Spurs in the finals, he would not have gotten swept. Lebron put up 22/7/7 on terrible percentages with a ton of turnovers. MJ at the same age I believe put up 44/6/6 against the 86 Celtics. Magic won a FMVP at 21...so a player of Lebron's caliber being "young" is no excuse, especially since he was in year 4 already.

[Phoenix]

I agree with you on a lot of things, but the bolded is completely wrong. I'm a big Lebron fan, but his 07 run is highly overrated. He was better in 06 than 07 and Lebron played TERRIBLE in the 07 finals. It's not about win/lose against those Spurs...he played like total crap. He doesn't have an excuse for playing that bad because he faced double/triple teams against EVERY playoff team in 06 and 07...so why was he good every other series but then played like crap in the 07 finals? I totally believe that 07 Kobe could have taken those Cavs to the finals, and while he would have lost against the Spurs in the finals, he would not have gotten swept. Lebron put up 22/7/7 on terrible percentages with a ton of turnovers. MJ at the same age I believe put up 44/6/6 against the 86 Celtics. Magic won a FMVP at 21...so a player of Lebron's caliber being "young" is no excuse, especially since he was in year 4 already.

2007 was a weak year for the east. Heat were done as champs, Pistons were 3 years past their title and Wallace was gone, and before the Big 3 Celtics and Howard Magic became elite. Not only did Lebron play better in 2006, he obviously was better in 2008/9/10 and that didn't translate to the Cavs getting back to the finals. That 07 squad wouldn't have made the finals for most of the 2000s except maybe 2001, 2002 and 2003.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron definitely did suck in the 07' finals but I credit him for helping get the team that far.

Could Kobe get to the finals with the same team? I'm not sure. LeBron has an ability to make his teammates better, especially role players, that I don't think Kobe had.

[Manny98]

I agree with you on a lot of things, but the bolded is completely wrong. I'm a big Lebron fan, but his 07 run is highly overrated. He was better in 06 than 07 and Lebron played TERRIBLE in the 07 finals. It's not about win/lose against those Spurs...he played like total crap. He doesn't have an excuse for playing that bad because he faced double/triple teams against EVERY playoff team in 06 and 07...so why was he good every other series but then played like crap in the 07 finals? I totally believe that 07 Kobe could have taken those Cavs to the finals, and while he would have lost against the Spurs in the finals, he would not have gotten swept. Lebron put up 22/7/7 on terrible percentages with a ton of turnovers. MJ at the same age I believe put up 44/6/6 against the 86 Celtics. Magic won a FMVP at 21...so a player of Lebron's caliber being "young" is no excuse, especially since he was in year 4 already.
LeBron at 22 - made the NBA finals

Jordan at 22 - spanked in the 1st round

[Turbo Slayer]

If MJ wins no championships and never got to the NBA Finals then I guarantee you people wouldnt NEVER see MJ as one of the greatest players of alltime. I guarantee you at least that shit.

[Overdrive]

If MJ wins no championships and never got to the NBA Finals then I guarantee you people wouldnt NEVER see MJ as one of the greatest players of alltime. I guarantee you at least that shit.

Espn has Giannas(27), Nash(30), Harden(32) and Paul(40) among the Top 40 AT. Their accolades combined don't match a finalless Jordan. He'd be in the top 20 easily. Only Kareem and James would also rank that high if you strip them off their rings and noone else.

[StrongLurk]

I'm an idiot and insecure loser

We know Manny, we know.

[bobopenguin]

pointless thread.

If TMAC's career stats were identical except he had 2 3-peats, then what?
If Ewing's career stats were identical except he had 2 3-peats, then what?
If Shaq's career stats were identical except he 0 rings, then what?
If Duncan's career stats were identical except he 0 rings, then what?

dude, what hs happened happened. MJ has great numbers, achievements, 2 3peats, 6 fmvp. goat he is. stop making unnecessary assumptions.

[HoopsNY]

MJ is regarded as the GOAT in large part due to his playoffs and finals performances. Averaging nearly 34 ppg in the NBA finals is a significant reason as to why he was able to win as many titles as he did. His playoff performances against great defensive teams like Milwaukee, Boston, Detroit, New York, and Miami are what add to it. To wipe away his rings probably means he wouldn't performed at such a high level in the postseason.

[Turbo Slayer]

Espn has Giannas(27), Nash(30), Harden(32) and Paul(40) among the Top 40 AT. Their accolades combined don't match a finalless Jordan. He'd be in the top 20 easily. Only Kareem and James would also rank that high if you strip them off their rings and noone else. True.

[Turbo Slayer]

MJ is regarded as the GOAT in large part due to his playoffs and finals performances. Averaging nearly 34 ppg in the NBA finals is a significant reason as to why he was able to win as many titles as he did. His playoff performances against great defensive teams like Milwaukee, Boston, Detroit, New York, and Miami are what add to it. To wipe away his rings probably means he wouldn't performed at such a high level in the postseason. Dont forget Pippen too.

[bizil]

MJ would still be in that top 11-15 GOAT mix. Because peak-prime wise, he WOULD STILL be the best player of all time. He still would have won multiple MVPs, scoring titles, All NBA 1st teams, and be the face of the league. But winning NO RINGS would have to drop him out of the top 10. He would have went down as the greatest team sport athlete of all time to NEVER win a ring. BY FAR!! However the great thing about the NBA is the BEST PLAYER in the league always wins a ring at some point in their prime. That can't be said in football or baseball.

[bizil]

Some posters gotta realize that PEAK-PRIME WISE, many were saying MJ is the best they've EVER SEEN before he won a ring. Which frankly was TRUE n my opinion for sure among the perimeter players. But in reality, NO WAY can u be considered the GOAT WITHOUT winning a title. The commentators on TV used BEST and GREATEST interchangeably. So UNLESS you are a student of the game like many of us on here, u can't CALL those commentators on their BS. The casual or novice fans will take those commentators word for it. The first time I though MJ DESERVED consideration as the GOAT was after his third title. After his 4th, I though FOR SURE he was the GOAT! But BEFORE he even won a ring, I though he was the best player IN GENERAL to ever step on a court. He just needed the RIGHT TEAM around him to win rings. Once he got that, it was a wrap!

[Hey Yo]

Jordan could of load managed every title during the regular season and still would be considered GOAT. Playoff runs are what matters most, otherwise you would see people naming Karl Malone as a top 5 GOAT.
He load managed for almost 2yrs after his 3rd title. No chance he wins 4,5 and 6 without doing so.

[Roundball_Rock]

He load managed for almost 2yrs after his 3rd title. No chance he wins 4,5 and 6 without doing so.

Always overlooked. Load management has benefited a lot of players but somehow taking entire seasons off doesn't provide a big advantage?

[guy]

He load managed for almost 2yrs after his 3rd title. No chance he wins 4,5 and 6 without doing so.

He traveled cross-country on a bus and played 127 professional baseball games during that time. Pretty terrible load management strategy :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Considering Oscar Robertson & Jerry West are consistently top 15 on almost everyone's list and peak as high as 10 with one sidekick ring at the end of their careers, Jordan would still be looked at as a top 15 player, especially in today's era with everyone overlooking titles/Playoff chokes in favor of stats.

[dazzer87]

He traveled cross-country on a bus and played 127 professional baseball games during that time. Pretty terrible load management strategy :oldlol:

but but but but he took off 18 months tho......:lol:oldlol::mad:

[BigShotBob]

He'd still be the consensus GOAT. He dominated like no other player. Ever. Both offensively and defensively.

[light]

He'd still be the consensus GOAT. He dominated like no other player. Ever. Both offensively and defensively.

Ha. How do you dominate "like no other player" and never win? He would not be the consensus GOAT without a ring. He'd be the consensus best player to never have won a ring.

[BigShotBob]

Ha. How do you dominate "like no other player" and never win? He would not be the consensus GOAT without a ring. He'd be the consensus best player to never have won a ring.

From a pure basketball standpoint, i.e. if we're talking playing at the park, or at the Rec, or anywhere on Earth or in any NBA game, MJ would be the best player on the floor every single time. That's the point.

[StrongLurk]

Ha. How do you dominate "like no other player" and never win? He would not be the consensus GOAT without a ring. He'd be the consensus best player to never have won a ring.

If MJ never won, it would simply mean that he had some of the worst supporting casts in the NBA for his entire career. Basketball isn't a fukin individual sport dude. It would be clear that he was the best player in the league pretty much every year and was never outplayed by any other individual player in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

From a pure basketball standpoint, i.e. if we're talking playing at the park, or at the Rec, or anywhere on Earth or in any NBA game, MJ would be the best player on the floor every single time. That's the point.

MJ stans think MJ dominated on a level that surpasses anyone else.

Jordan 87'-93': 33/6/6
Wilt 60'-67': 38/25/4 (41/25/3 from 60'-65')
Kareem 71'-77': 30/15/4
LeBron 06'-13': 29/8/7

MVP's: Kareem 6, MJ/Russell 5, LeBron/Wilt 4

[BigShotBob]

MJ stans think MJ dominated on a level that surpasses anyone else.

Jordan 87'-93': 33/6/6
Wilt 60'-67': 38/25/4 (41/25/3 from 60'-65')
Kareem 71'-77': 30/15/4
LeBron 06'-13': 29/8/7

MVP's: Kareem 6, MJ/Russell 5, LeBron/Wilt 4

I say "from a pure basketball standpoint" and you go straight to stats. Can't make this shit up.

Watch a game from time to time instead of loading up microsoft excel.

[Roundball_Rock]

I say "from a pure basketball standpoint" and you go straight to stats. Can't make this shit up.

Watch a game from time to time instead of loading up microsoft excel.

Basketball didn't begin in 1991.

[BigShotBob]

Basketball didn't begin in 1991.

But that's when the GOAT argument ended, because we had already witnessed it.