Lebron with 40,000 points, 10,000 assists, and 10,000 rebounds.

[Lebron23]

He might actually accomplish it. All time leading scorer, and top 3 in assists.

[Rico2016]

Honesty his playoff points total is so wildly underrated, we just assume he has the record despite only making 13 post seasons. Plenty of players made equal playoffs or more and still scored less. MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem. Regular season points are nice, too, but the playoffs totals are no another level. Assuming the playoffs starts eventually this year he should eclipse the 7,000 mark while the #2 guy only has 5,9xx. Straight wild.

[light]

He might actually accomplish it. All time leading scorer, and top 3 in assists.

He may even end up top 2 in assists. Crazy.

[Lebron23]

Honesty his playoff points total is so wildly underrated, we just assume he has the record despite only making 13 post seasons. Plenty of players made equal playoffs or more and still scored less. MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem. Regular season points are nice, too, but the playoffs totals are no another level. Assuming the playoffs starts eventually this year he should eclipse the 7,000 mark while the #2 guy only has 5,9xx. Straight wild.

All time leading scorer in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.

[Bronbron23]

He might actually accomplish it. All time leading scorer, and top 3 in assists.

Longevity is cool but its never been the measurement of greatness. Its a terrible way to look at things. If i scored more points then you for 10 years straight and then retire but you keep playing and end up with more total points are you really going to say you were a better scorer? Thats dumb as hell.

[AirBonner]

Longevity is cool but its never been the measurement of greatness. Its a terrible way to look at things. If i scored more points then you for 10 years straight and then retire but you keep playing and end up with more total points are you really going to say you were a better scorer? Thats dumb as hell.
How about greatness + longevity? (Aka LeBron)

[Rico2016]

Longevity is cool but its never been the measurement of greatness. Its a terrible way to look at things. If i scored more points then you for 10 years straight and then retire but you keep playing and end up with more total points are you really going to say you were a better scorer? Thats dumb as hell.

This line of thought is dumb for many reasons, but I will only highlight two of them to spare you from maximum punishment...

#1) If we just take LeBron's 13 seasons he has accumulated more playoff stats than any player ever. MJ played 13. Shaq 15 playoffs I think? Kobe 16? Kareem 18? So what are you really saying? LBJ accomplished more, statistically, than any player despite them having 'longevity' over LeBron (i.e. playing more playoffs than him).

#2) Are we punishing players for making more playoffs? Why? Are we rewarding players for making less playoffs? Dumb.

You're ideas lack logical reasoning and judgement. Statistics are a part of sports.

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

Stop trying to bend reality for MJ. His choice to retire three times does come with consequences. Do I think if he played a full year in 1994 and then again in 1999 he would have more points scored than LeBron in the playoffs? Perhaps. But he didn't do that. He quit. He gave up. And his choices have consequences.

[AirBonner]

This line of though is dumb for many reasons, but I will only highlight two of them

#1) If we just take LeBron's 13 seasons he has accumulated more playoff stats than any player ever. MJ played 13. Shaq 15 playoffs I think? Kobe 16? Kareem 18? So what are you really saying? LBJ accomplished more, statistically, than any player despite them having 'longevity' over LeBron (i.e. playing more playoffs than him).

#2) Are we punishing players for making more playoffs? Why? Are we rewarding players for making less playoffs? Dumb.

You're ideas lack logical reasoning and judgement. Statistics are a part of sports.

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

Stop trying to bend reality for MJ. His choice to retire three times does come with consequences. Do I think if he played a full year in 1994 and then again in 1999 he would have more points scored than LeBron in the playoffs? Perhaps. But he didn't do that. He quit. He gave up. And his choices have consequences.
Bingo

[Rico2016]

Bingo

Amen :cheers:

They don't want it. I'll run circles around them until they tap out.

[AirBonner]

Amen :cheers:

They don't want it. I'll run circles around them until they tap out.

Just like Floyd! They come swinging but nothing connects :cheers:

[86Celtics]

This line of thought is dumb for many reasons, but I will only highlight two of them to spare you from maximum punishment...

#1) If we just take LeBron's 13 seasons he has accumulated more playoff stats than any player ever. MJ played 13. Shaq 15 playoffs I think? Kobe 16? Kareem 18? So what are you really saying? LBJ accomplished more, statistically, than any player despite them having 'longevity' over LeBron (i.e. playing more playoffs than him).

#2) Are we punishing players for making more playoffs? Why? Are we rewarding players for making less playoffs? Dumb.

You're ideas lack logical reasoning and judgement. Statistics are a part of sports.

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

Stop trying to bend reality for MJ. His choice to retire three times does come with consequences. Do I think if he played a full year in 1994 and then again in 1999 he would have more points scored than LeBron in the playoffs? Perhaps. But he didn't do that. He quit. He gave up. And his choices have consequences.

First of basketball isn't football, hockey or baseball.

Second of all, you are not fooling anyone with your playoffs appearances shtick. James has more points because he's had to play far more playoff games than Jordan.
If he wasn't taken to 7 games by inferior squads so often, he would have scored fewer points.

Lastly, James might have had an argument for being a better scorer if he could shoot free throws at a respectable clip and if he wasn't competing in a no defence era.

[Lebron23]

Longevity is cool but its never been the measurement of greatness. Its a terrible way to look at things. If i scored more points then you for 10 years straight and then retire but you keep playing and end up with more total points are you really going to say you were a better scorer? Thats dumb as hell.

Lebron is still averaging 26 ppg on his 17th nba season, and he is also playing on a winning team. Lebron is going to be the all time greatest scorer. Not online he's durable because he also have great worked ethics, and he's been able to improve his game by shooting more 3's.

[Lebron23]

First of basketball isn't football, hockey or baseball.

Second of all, you are not fooling anyone with your playoffs appearances shtick. James has more points because he's had to play far more playoff games than Jordan.
If he wasn't taken to 7 games by inferior squads so often, he would have scored fewer points.

Lastly, James might have had an argument for being a better scorer if he could shoot free throws at a respectable clip and if he wasn't competing in a no defence era.

What no defense era? He played vs the zone defense. Players are just more athletic, and has more range compared to their older counter parts.

[Axe]

Lebron is still averaging 26 ppg on his 17th nba season, and he is also playing on a winning team. Lebron is going to be the all time greatest scorer. Not online he's durable because he also have great worked ethics, and he's been able to improve his game by shooting more 3's.
The lakers aren't even winning last season until they got ad and reacquired howard into the team prior to the start of the outgoing season.

[Lebron23]

The lakers aren't even winning last season until they got ad and reacquired howard into the team prior to the start of the outgoing season.
Lebron only played 55 games last year.

[ELITEpower23]

First of basketball isn't football, hockey or baseball.

Second of all, you are not fooling anyone with your playoffs appearances shtick. James has more points because he's had to play far more playoff games than Jordan.
If he wasn't taken to 7 games by inferior squads so often, he would have scored fewer points.

Lastly, James might have had an argument for being a better scorer if he could shoot free throws at a respectable clip and if he wasn't competing in a no defence era.

But you're ignoring many facts regarding why LeBron played more games, which just to be clear, is a good thing he played more. It is a good thing he was able to play more games in equal or even fewer playoffs than MJ, KAJ, Shaq, and Kobe.

Factual reasons why LBJ played more games:
•LeBron won more playoff series than MJ
•LeBron made more Finals than MJ
•LeBron never lost in the 1st round
•LeBron did not quit in his prime to stand in a batting cage for 1.5 years

None of those should be held against LBJ. LeBron played more games, which is a GOOD thing, because of the reasons above.

[Axe]

Well, what the hell do you expect when you're the ultimate carrying machine on a team full with bunch of scrubs?

The fact that he also played in an inferior eastern conference allowed those kinds of possibilities as well.

[ELITEpower23]

Well, what the hell do you expect when you're the ultimate carrying machine on a team full with bunch of scrubs?

The fact that he also played in an inferior eastern conference allowed those kinds of possibilities as well.

The Eastern Conference LBJ played against had a lot of teams with not so great offenses but killer defense. Eastern Conference was always more defensive minded in the LeBron years. So if we are assessing his ability to score, it now becomes even more impressive.

[86Celtics]

But you're ignoring many facts regarding why LeBron played more games, which just to be clear, is a good thing he played more. It is a good thing he was able to play more games in equal or even fewer playoffs than MJ, KAJ, Shaq, and Kobe.

Factual reasons why LBJ played more games:
•LeBron won more playoff series than MJ
•LeBron made more Finals than MJ
•LeBron never lost in the 1st round
•LeBron did not quit in his prime to stand in a batting cage for 1.5 years

None of those should be held against LBJ. LeBron played more games, which is a GOOD thing, because of the reasons above.

My fairly obvious point is that he's scored more points because he's played more games. Him playing more games isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing by itself.


What no defense era? He played vs the zone defense. Players are just more athletic, and has more range compared to their older counter parts.

The league has essentially prohibited marking perimeter players. The difference in athleticism between now and previous years is overstated and overrated.

[ELITEpower23]

My fairly obvious point is that he's scored more points because he's played more games. Him playing more games isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing by itself.



The league has essentially prohibited marking perimeter players. The difference in athleticism between now and previous years is overstated and overrated.

Can we narrow the topic to something simplified.

Why did Jordan play fewer games in equal playoff showings? There are several reasons, can you name the most obvious ones? I'm sure as a Boston Celtics fan you have a good idea why...?

[86Celtics]

Can we narrow the topic to something simplified.

Why did Jordan play fewer games in equal playoff showings? There are several reasons, can you name the most obvious ones? I'm sure as a Boston Celtics fan you have a good idea why...?

First and foremost I am a Celtics fan, my favorite player is Bird and yes I am a fan of Jordan too. Does that cover your concerns? As far as your question goes, I don't really have to bring up the fact that not all playoff rounds were a best of 7 during Jordan's time, do I? Or that he rarely needed to go the full distance with teams that weren't as strong as his Bulls.

[Da_Realist]

MJ: 6 titles in 179 playoff games

LeBron: 3 titles in playoff 239 games.

If LeBron went undefeated in the playoffs for 3 straight years, it would take him 48 more games to win 3 more titles. For LeBron to catch MJ, he couldn't do it in less than 287 games.

If he fielded a team as dominant as the late-90's Bulls, it would take him 300 total playoff games to match MJ. Compared to 179.

But imagine the cumulative stats doe.

[Da_Realist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

2017 and 2018 Warriors would also destroy the 1996-98 bulls in a best of 7 series. Jordan might get a flashback of the Celtics whooping his butt in the 1980's.

[BigShotBob]

2017 and 2018 Warriors would also destroy the 1996-98 bulls in a best of 7 series. Jordan might get a flashback of the Celtics whooping his butt in the 1980's.

Not even close.

Rule changes make the game easier to score than ever and you think anyone is gonna stop Jordan?

[Da_Realist]

Not even close.

Rule changes make the game easier to score than ever and you think anyone is gonna stop Jordan?

It's interesting that LeBron fans never say any of his hand-crafted teams would beat the Bulls. When you boil it down you'll see even they don't have that much confidence in him. They give more props to his competition than to him directly, hoping he gets elevated by reference.

[Lebron23]

It's interesting that LeBron fans never say any of his hand-crafted teams would beat the Bulls. When you boil it down you'll see even they don't have that much confidence in him. They give more props to his competition than to him directly, hoping he gets elevated by reference.

2016 cavaliers and 2012 heat would beat the 1996 bulls.

[Lebron23]

Not even close.

Rule changes make the game easier to score than ever and you think anyone is gonna stop Jordan?

Jordan never beat an nba team that's was good as the 2012 okc thunder and 2016 warriors.

[ELITEpower23]

First and foremost I am a Celtics fan, my favorite player is Bird and yes I am a fan of Jordan too. Does that cover your concerns? As far as your question goes, I don't really have to bring up the fact that not all playoff rounds were a best of 7 during Jordan's time, do I? Or that he rarely needed to go the full distance with teams that weren't as strong as his Bulls.

You are completely ducking reality. How can I dumb it down.

MJ won fewer playoff series than LeBron, meaning that LeBron won more. And to add on that, MJ's losses came in the 1st round, whereas LeBron won more and his losses came in the Finals.

It's like using a pacman video game analogy and you wonder why LBJ collected more points when MJ died on level 1 constantly and LBJ died on level 4 constantly. Is that easier to comprehend?

MJ was losing on level 1. LeBron was beating level 1, beating level 2, beating level 3, and losing to the final boss on level 4.

[ELITEpower23]

It's interesting that LeBron fans never say any of his hand-crafted teams would beat the Bulls. When you boil it down you'll see even they don't have that much confidence in him. They give more props to his competition than to him directly, hoping he gets elevated by reference.

Really? I thought that was obvious based on Clyde Drexler taking Mikey 6 games. LeBron led teams would SMASH Jordan Bulls. Better?

LeBron is facing KD, Russ, Harden super teams or Duncan Parker, Kawhi, Ginobli superteams while MJ struggled against Clyde Drexler and Dan Majerle. Is this comedy hour? 2012, 2013, 2016, 2017 LeBron teams smash any version of MJ Bulls. MJ didnt beat anybody worth noting
90s was the watered down era.

[BigShotBob]

Jordan never beat an nba team that's was good as the 2012 okc thunder and 2016 warriors.

2012 Thunder were worse than the 96' Supersonics, 92' Blazers, 98' Pacers, and 96' Magic just to name a few.

96' Magic and 96' Supersonics would beat the dogshit out of the 2016 hobbled Warriors.


It's interesting that LeBron fans never say any of his hand-crafted teams would beat the Bulls. When you boil it down you'll see even they don't have that much confidence in him. They give more props to his competition than to him directly, hoping he gets elevated by reference.

I wonder why they don't rate the 09' Magic highly? :lol

[ELITEpower23]

2012 Thunder were worse than the 96' Supersonics, 92' Blazers, 98' Pacers, and 96' Magic just to name a few.

96' Magic and 96' Supersonics would beat the dogshit out of the 2016 hobbled Warriors.



I wonder why they don't rate the 09' Magic highly? :lol

MJ never beat a team close to any of LBJ's top 7 best wins:

2011 Bulls
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2014 Pacers
2015 Hawks
2016 Warriors
2018 Raptors

MJ never beat a team as good as 2011 Bulls or 2018 Raptors let alone the others

[86Celtics]

You are completely ducking reality. How can I dumb it down.

MJ won fewer playoff series than LeBron, meaning that LeBron won more. And to add on that, MJ's losses came in the 1st round, whereas LeBron won more and his losses came in the Finals.

It's like using a pacman video game analogy and you wonder why LBJ collected more points when MJ died on level 1 constantly and LBJ died on level 4 constantly. Is that easier to comprehend?

MJ was losing on level 1. LeBron was beating level 1, beating level 2, beating level 3, and losing to the final boss on level 4.

I don't know if you are another alt/troll or not but in any case spare me with this childish argument that removes all context because it suits your agenda. James played in the worst eastern conference ever. Jordan had to go through the declining Celtics dynasty and later on the successors the Pistons. He didn't have the luxury of facing Horford's Hawks and the Pacers of George and Hibbert to reach the finals. And let's not mention Casey's Raptors and their performances in the playoffs. In 18 he almost lost to a young and inexperienced Celtics squad and before that he had to team up with Bosh and Wade to get past what was by then a geriatric trio of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

So give it a rest already.

[Clippersfan86]

If Lebron's ring statistics were a bit better, I don't think anyone would question him as the GOAT. I think he has a couple series losses like the 2011 Mavs (as great as they were, they weren't close to the favorites) that hurt his legacy. We know in terms of filling up the stat sheet and all around individual dominance Lebron ends up having no equal. I think with 2 more rings he would be the GOAT. I do think context is needed, because we know that for the first 7 years of his career, he wasn't playing with such great teams. Then he also happened to come up against the Warriors dynasty multiple times unfortunately.

He's still in the discussion and a lock for top 2 though. If he finishes strong with a ring or two, and surpasses some of these guys on the all time list.. I do think he can get the GOAT title. As already pointed out... Lebron's finals opponents were much more impressive than Jordan's.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW don't forget steals. He's #13 all time right now with 2011. He only needs about 100 steals to jump to #10 all time (the guys ahead of him are all retired).

You should put 40,000, 10,000, 10,000 and 2,000+ steals. Nobody is on that list.

[ELITEpower23]

I don't know if you are another alt/troll or not but in any case spare me with this childish argument that removes all context because it suits your agenda. James played in the worst eastern conference ever. Jordan had to go through the declining Celtics dynasty and later on the successors the Pistons. He didn't have the luxury of facing Horford's Hawks and the Pacers of George and Hibbert to reach the finals. And let's not mention Casey's Raptors and their performances in the playoffs. In 18 he almost lost to a young and inexperienced Celtics squad and before that he had to team up with Bosh and Wade to get past what was by then a geriatric trio of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

So give it a rest already.
MJ never beat a team close to any of LBJ's top 7 best wins:

2011 Bulls
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2014 Pacers
2015 Hawks
2016 Warriors
2018 Raptors

MJ never beat a team as good as 2011 Bulls or 2018 Raptors let alone the others

[3ball]

Playing at a LOWER level for longer isn't a case for goat

The highest level is what matters, and MJ has the highest rate of production ever (PPG, BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons)

Ultimately, Lebron's usage deficit meant that MJ used about 3 more possessions per game, at higher efficiency per possession (118 to 116 ortg)

Wouldn't lebron win a lot more close games if he was using an extra 3 possessions a game at better efficiency?.. many games are decided by 1 possession and MJ was using 3 more possessions at higher efficiency

That's why mj is goat - he used more possessions at better efficiency than any wing ever.. and btw, there's many spots where MJ's usage was 10 points higher, which would mean he used about 20 more possessions

[2ball]

MJ: 4.6 point edge in playoffs, same in Finals pace-adjusted

And MJ's stats were achieved with great teamwork, so they resulted in better teams/more winning

MJ never doomed his team by spotting the opponent 10 extra points (letting his man score 7-10 points above his normal average)

[2ball]

LeBron only played longer than most players... his RATE of production isn't #1 in any category except BPM, but only because MJ came back to the Wizards... and VORP is another accumulation stat. He’s #1 in nothing.

[ELITEpower23]

MJ: 4.6 point edge in playoffs, same in Finals pace-adjusted

And MJ's stats were achieved with great teamwork, so they resulted in better teams/more winning

MJ never doomed his team by spotting the opponent 10 extra points (letting his man score 7-10 points above his normal average)

34/12/10 (56% fg, 39% 3p) 2.38 ast to turnover ratio

or

33/4/2 (42% fg, 31% 3p) 1.4 ast to turnover ratio

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron only played longer than most players... his RATE of production isn't #1 in any category except BPM, but only because MJ came back to the Wizards... and VORP is another accumulation stat. He’s #1 in nothing.

LeBron played longer? Interesting news, where did you find this? Playoffs played:

LeBron: 13
Jordan: 13
Kobe: 15
Shaq: 16
Kareem: 18

Is your definition of "playing longer" = playing equal or less playoffs

[2ball]

Lebron-ball has never won the attrition battle at the championship level because the style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop effective players/teams, thereby requiring ready-made stars/talent-based-winning via collusion/cheating.. he simply avoided the career-losing fate of other ball-dominators by colluding for the extra talent this style needs to win. When things are taken into context he’s not top 5.

[Roundball_Rock]

2012 Thunder were worse than the 96' Supersonics, 92' Blazers, 98' Pacers, and 96' Magic just to name a few.

Durant/Westbrook/Harden
Payton/Kemp/Schrempf
Drexler/Porter/Kersey
Miller/Smits/Davis
Shaq/Penny/Grant (Grant injured before halftime of Game 1 so de facto Anderson as the #3)

One of these is not like the others...


It's interesting that LeBron fans never say any of his hand-crafted teams would beat the Bulls.

Why? They concede LeBron's teams were inferior. The inconsistency is from MJ fans who on one hand will say the Bulls were the GOAT team (who would beat every super team) and then on the other say the Bulls were not a super team.

[Rico2016]

LeBron played longer? Interesting news, where did you find this? Playoffs played:

LeBron: 13
Jordan: 13
Kobe: 15
Shaq: 16
Kareem: 18

Is your definition of "playing longer" = playing equal or less playoffs

Decimation

[Clippersfan86]

LeBron only played longer than most players... his RATE of production isn't #1 in any category except BPM, but only because MJ came back to the Wizards... and VORP is another accumulation stat. He’s #1 in nothing.

Great use of your 7th post. Longevity is also the reason for many of Kareem's achievements. It's not a weakness my friend. In fact, longevity is exactly what robs many players from HOF careers.

[Rico2016]

Lebron-ball has never won the attrition battle at the championship level because the style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop effective players/teams, thereby requiring ready-made stars/talent-based-winning via collusion/cheating.. he simply avoided the career-losing fate of other ball-dominators by colluding for the extra talent this style needs to win. When things are taken into context he’s not top 5.

MJ-ball was an embarrassing 1-9

Pippen-ball was 6 chips

Choose wisely baby boi

[Overdrive]

Can we narrow the topic to something simplified.

Why did Jordan play fewer games in equal playoff showings? There are several reasons, can you name the most obvious ones? I'm sure as a Boston Celtics fan you have a good idea why...?

15 win vs 16 win format.
Stronger EC.

[Roundball_Rock]

15 win vs 16 win format.
Stronger EC.

Stronger EC would mean more games...instead the Bulls were going 11-1, 11-5, 11-2, 11-1, 11-2, 11-4 against the EC. The Heat and Cavs had more games because they had more comparable teams and weren't sweeping or going 4-1 every series.

[Axe]

Lmao here we go again with mj vs. lbj argument. 🥴

[Rico2016]

Stronger EC would mean more games...instead the Bulls were going 11-1, 11-5, 11-2, 11-1, 11-2, 11-4 against the EC. The Heat and Cavs had more games because they had more comparable teams and weren't sweeping or going 4-1 every series.

Thank god for you. Logic escapes them.

[Turbo Slayer]

All time leading scorer is possible barring serious injury or premature retirement.

[Axe]

During his 9 finals runs, bran only bumped into one 60-win team in the east. That year was 2011. There were none aside from that.

[Bronbron23]

How about greatness + longevity? (Aka LeBron)

Yeah for sure. Thats why he'll go down as one of the best ever. Its not like im saying he sucks. The totals argument just isnt a good one. You dont become greatest because you were really good for a longer period than most. You become great for being dominant and winning which is something bron hasnt been. Mj was much more dominant and was a better winner.

[Bronbron23]

This line of thought is dumb for many reasons, but I will only highlight two of them to spare you from maximum punishment...

#1) If we just take LeBron's 13 seasons he has accumulated more playoff stats than any player ever. MJ played 13. Shaq 15 playoffs I think? Kobe 16? Kareem 18? So what are you really saying? LBJ accomplished more, statistically, than any player despite them having 'longevity' over LeBron (i.e. playing more playoffs than him).

#2) Are we punishing players for making more playoffs? Why? Are we rewarding players for making less playoffs? Dumb.

You're ideas lack logical reasoning and judgement. Statistics are a part of sports.

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

Stop trying to bend reality for MJ. His choice to retire three times does come with consequences. Do I think if he played a full year in 1994 and then again in 1999 he would have more points scored than LeBron in the playoffs? Perhaps. But he didn't do that. He quit. He gave up. And his choices have consequences.

Nah dude again your just using totals which isnt the best measure. Bron played more games than mj. If you go points per game mj is obviously the better scorer. Who gives a shit about stats if your not dominating while your getting them.

And no one is punishing bron for making the playoffs. Its amazing how many times hes been deep in the playoffs the problem is we're comparing him to othwr greats who were better winners. Mj most notably. Mj has similar or better stats but more wins and more accolades. Its really not a comparison.

And baseball is a terrible comparison. One man cant impact a baseball game like a basketball player can.

And jerry rice isnt considered the best football player ever. Brady is and its mostly because of how many chips he has. Yeah the stats are important too but 5he chips are a bigger factor.

And wayne gretzky has alot of chips to go with his stats. If there was someone who had similar stats but double the wins you can bet they'd be considered better.

[Rico2016]

During his 9 finals runs, bran only bumped into one 60-win team in the east. That year was 2011. There were none aside from that.

The 2018 Raptors had an SRS over 7.0 which is far better than winning 60 games. Tsk tsk, Axe.

[Rico2016]

Nah dude again your just using totals which isnt the best measure. Bron played more games than mj. If you go points per game mj is obviously the better scorer. Who gives a shit about stats if your not dominating while your getting them.

And no one is punishing bron for making the playoffs. Its amazing how many times hes been deep in the playoffs the problem is we're comparing him to othwr greats who were better winners. Mj most notably. Mj has similar or better stats but more wins and more accolades. Its really not a comparison.

And baseball is a terrible comparison. One man cant impact a baseball game like a basketball player can.

And jerry rice isnt considered the best football player ever. Brady is and its mostly because of how many chips he has. Yeah the stats are important too but 5he chips are a bigger factor.

And wayne gretzky has alot of chips to go with his stats. If there was someone who had similar stats but double the wins you can bet they'd be considered better.

No one punishes players for playing more games. It's a reward, it's called: You took care of your body better, you went further into the playoffs and lost less. Your idea of rewarding MJ for playing fewer games makes literally zero sense. You are punishing LeBron for going deeper into the playoffs instead of losing in the 1st round with 35-2-2 stats which again, makes zero sense. I repeat

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

[2ball]

LeBron scores at the cost of his team (ball domination) otoh MJ scores in high volumes in the flow of offense and not at the expense of teammates

[Axe]

The 2018 Raptors had an SRS over 7.0 which is far better than winning 60 games. Tsk tsk, Axe.
Stop the justification, you obsessive freak.

I only mentioned that so people would be aware of his competition in the said conference.

[Run DLC]

He’s definitely going to try to set that record and it will be the milestone of all milestones if he’s able to pull it off. 10k rebs and 10k assists will probably be accomplished by next year or the year after, by then, he should probably have 36,000+ points.

[ThatCoolKid]

Stop the justification, you obsessive freak.

I only mentioned that so people would be aware of his competition in the said conference.

Your assessment is incorrect. Lebron beat players like Derrick Rose, Paul George, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Kyle Lowry, Joakim Noah, Isiah Thomas, Lou Williams, Elton Brand, Al Horford, Kyle Korver, Carmelo Anthony, Victor Oladipo, and Jayson Tatum. Do your research before opting to speak - fool.

[RogueBorg]

This line of thought is dumb for many reasons, but I will only highlight two of them to spare you from maximum punishment...

#1) If we just take LeBron's 13 seasons he has accumulated more playoff stats than any player ever. MJ played 13

I have a question for you, MJ and LBJ have each appeared in 13 post-seasons. MJ averaged 33.4 ppg, LBJ averaged 28.9 ppg yet LeBron scored 6,911 total points to MJ's 5,987.

Do you have any idea how that happened or are you really that stupid?

[light]

I have a question for you, MJ and LBJ have each appeared in 13 post-seasons. MJ averaged 33.4 ppg, LBJ averaged 28.9 ppg yet LeBron scored 6,911 total points to MJ's 5,987.

Do you have any idea how that happened or are you really that stupid?

Maybe he meant that he accumulated more stats like this...

Most Career 25/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 127
2. Michael Jordan - 73
3. Larry Bird - 53
4. Kobe Bryant - 52
5. Jerry West - 42

Most 30/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 84
2. Michael Jordan - 51
3. Kobe Bryant - 37
4. Jerry West - 34
5. Larry Bird - 32

Most 40/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 24
2. Michael Jordan - 17
3. Jerry West - 8
4. Kobe Bryant - 7
5. Russell Westbrook - 7

Most 25/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 50
2. Michael Jordan - 20
3. Larry Bird - 18
4. Magic Johnson - 17
5. Russell Westbrook - 16

Most 30/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 32
2. Michael Jordan - 11
3. Russell Westbrook - 11
4. Oscar Robertson - 10
5. Larry Bird - 9

Most 35/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 22
2. Michael Jordan - 9
3. Russell Westbrook - 6
4. Larry Bird - 4
5. Oscar Robertson - 4

Most 40/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 13
2. Michael Jordan - 4
3. Elgin Baylor - 2
4. Oscar Robertson - 2
5. Jerry West - 2

Most 45/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 3
2. Michael Jordan - 2
3. Russell Westbrook - 2

[light]

Maybe he meant that he accumulated more stats like this...

Most Career 25/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 127
2. Michael Jordan - 73
3. Larry Bird - 53
4. Kobe Bryant - 52
5. Jerry West - 42

Most 30/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 84
2. Michael Jordan - 51
3. Kobe Bryant - 37
4. Jerry West - 34
5. Larry Bird - 32

Most 40/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 24
2. Michael Jordan - 17
3. Jerry West - 8
4. Kobe Bryant - 7
5. Russell Westbrook - 7

Most 25/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 50
2. Michael Jordan - 20
3. Larry Bird - 18
4. Magic Johnson - 17
5. Russell Westbrook - 16

Most 30/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 32
2. Michael Jordan - 11
3. Russell Westbrook - 11
4. Oscar Robertson - 10
5. Larry Bird - 9

Most 35/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 22
2. Michael Jordan - 9
3. Russell Westbrook - 6
4. Larry Bird - 4
5. Oscar Robertson - 4

Most 40/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 13
2. Michael Jordan - 4
3. Elgin Baylor - 2
4. Oscar Robertson - 2
5. Jerry West - 2

Most 45/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 3
2. Michael Jordan - 2
3. Russell Westbrook - 2

And these...

Most 25/10/10 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 18
2. Oscar Robertson - 8
3. Russell Westbrook - 8
4. Magic Johnson - 4
5. George McGinnis - 4

Most 30/10/10 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 12
2. Oscar Robertson - 8
3. Russell Westbrook - 6
4. George McGinnis - 3
5. Steph Curry - 2

Most 35/10/10 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 7
2. Oscar Robertson - 4
3. Russell Westbrook - 3
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 3
5. Steph Curry - 1

Most 40/10/10 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 3
2. Oscar Robertson - 2
3. Jerry West - 1
4. Charles Barkley - 1
5. Russell Westbrook - 1

[Run DLC]

Maybe he meant that he accumulated more stats like this...

Most Career 25/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 127
2. Michael Jordan - 73
3. Larry Bird - 53
4. Kobe Bryant - 52
5. Jerry West - 42

Most 30/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 84
2. Michael Jordan - 51
3. Kobe Bryant - 37
4. Jerry West - 34
5. Larry Bird - 32

Most 40/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 24
2. Michael Jordan - 17
3. Jerry West - 8
4. Kobe Bryant - 7
5. Russell Westbrook - 7

Most 25/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 50
2. Michael Jordan - 20
3. Larry Bird - 18
4. Magic Johnson - 17
5. Russell Westbrook - 16

Most 30/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 32
2. Michael Jordan - 11
3. Russell Westbrook - 11
4. Oscar Robertson - 10
5. Larry Bird - 9

Most 35/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 22
2. Michael Jordan - 9
3. Russell Westbrook - 6
4. Larry Bird - 4
5. Oscar Robertson - 4

Most 40/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 13
2. Michael Jordan - 4
3. Elgin Baylor - 2
4. Oscar Robertson - 2
5. Jerry West - 2

Most 45/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 3
2. Michael Jordan - 2
3. Russell Westbrook - 2

Damn Durant is nowhere near in these list.

[Gimmedarock]

Bron Bron got GOAT locked up. He’ll have every stat in the record book, he’s got rings, he’s got character. Ain’t no stains on this man. No gambling and bs. Bron is clean!

[Roundball_Rock]

People talk about Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron/Barry Bonds for their home runs. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Wayne Gretzky for his goals/points scored. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?
People talk about Jerry Rice for his touchdowns and yards. No one questions HOW MANY YEARS DID HE PLAY DOE?

Exactly. Does anyone know who the "home runs per game" leader is in baseball? No one knows and no one cares but even non-baseball fans know who has the all-time HR record (both the legit and illegit records).


LeBron scores at the cost of his team (ball domination) otoh MJ scores in high volumes in the flow of offense and not at the expense of teammates

Jordan’s Teammates’ Scoring in 95’ and 86’

Bulls' Scoring With/Without MJ in 95'

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

Kukoc without MJ: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS
Kukoc with MJ: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS

Armstrong without MJ: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS
Armstrong with MJ: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4

So the Bulls' top 3 scorers went from 53.0 PPG without MJ to 44.1 PPG with him. That is a large decline but with MJ consuming 24 FGA and 33% usage the others will pay a price.

Bulls’ Teammates Scoring With/Without MJ in 86’

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

Gervin without MJ: 17.8/2.9/1.9 47.7% FG 10.5 GS
Gervin with MJ: 11.1/1.9/0.9 46.3% FG 5.6 GS

Green without MJ: 14.8/8.9/2.0 48.9% FG 10.4 GS
Green with MJ: 7.8/5.2/0.9 32.4% 3.8 GS

So his top scoring teammates went from a combined 54.1 PPG to 34.8 PPG with him.

*10th in scoring before MJ returned. For context, Ewing was 6th at 23.9, Barkley 7th at 23.0, Drexler scored 21.8, Penny 20.9, Payton 20.6, Hill 19.9, Miller 19.6, Kemp 18.7 in that same season. All players who MJ stans say were great scorers while Pippen was a "mediocre" scorer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Peak and prime numbers will ALWAYS have more value than longevity ones.

Especially if the former produced for a decade and change :lol

Jordan's 10 scoring titles and leader in regular-season/playoff PPG are why he's the BETTER scorer.

[Rico2016]

Maybe he meant that he accumulated more stats like this...

Most Career 25/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 127
2. Michael Jordan - 73
3. Larry Bird - 53
4. Kobe Bryant - 52
5. Jerry West - 42

Most 30/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 84
2. Michael Jordan - 51
3. Kobe Bryant - 37
4. Jerry West - 34
5. Larry Bird - 32

Most 40/5/5 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 24
2. Michael Jordan - 17
3. Jerry West - 8
4. Kobe Bryant - 7
5. Russell Westbrook - 7

Most 25/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 50
2. Michael Jordan - 20
3. Larry Bird - 18
4. Magic Johnson - 17
5. Russell Westbrook - 16

Most 30/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 32
2. Michael Jordan - 11
3. Russell Westbrook - 11
4. Oscar Robertson - 10
5. Larry Bird - 9

Most 35/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 22
2. Michael Jordan - 9
3. Russell Westbrook - 6
4. Larry Bird - 4
5. Oscar Robertson - 4

Most 40/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 13
2. Michael Jordan - 4
3. Elgin Baylor - 2
4. Oscar Robertson - 2
5. Jerry West - 2

Most 45/8/8 Playoff Games:

1. LeBron James - 3
2. Michael Jordan - 2
3. Russell Westbrook - 2

Plus

Playoffs, Most 40 pt, 10 reb games
•LeBron = 13
•Shaq = 12
•Hakeem = 7
•Jordan = 5
•Dirk = 5
•Barkley = 5

[Rico2016]

Peak and prime numbers will ALWAYS have more value than longevity ones.

Especially if the former produced for a decade and change :lol

Jordan's 10 scoring titles and leader in regular-season/playoff PPG are why he's the BETTER scorer.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKX6T2Fk/tenor.gif

MJ had the edge in per-game scoring because he quit in his prime to rest up physically and mentally in order for his stats to prop up. Sorry.

QUITTING does have it's consequences.

6911 > 5987

G.O.A.T record = 6,911 points in 13 playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ had the edge in per-game scoring because he quit in his prime to rest up physically and mentally in order for his stats to prop up. Sorry.

QUITTING does have it's consequences.

Not only are his averages inflated by premature retirements, MJ was a one trick pony. His entire career he played in the same role (with the exception of about 20 games we always hear about in the 80's), even in Washington. Wilt's PPG went down because he became a facilitator on the Sixers and then on the Lakers became a defensive/rebounding anchor in the Russell role. When he was tasked with scoring no one then or after could come close to him.

It is funny this versatility is held against Wilt, not a plus for him. If you draft Wilt you can build a variety of teams around him. You can have him be a dominant scorer and focus on defense and other skills around him. You can have him facilitate. You can have him focus on defense/rebounding and have him co-exist with elite scorers like West and Baylor.

With Jordan you needed the same type of team around him to win. He couldn't succeed with West and Baylor, for instance, because he demanded so many shots (even on the Dream Team he took 40% more shots than the second most frequent shooter).

[Rico2016]

Exactly. Does anyone know who the "home runs per game" leader is in baseball? No one knows and no one cares but even non-baseball fans know who has the all-time HR record (both the legit and illegit records).



Jordan’s Teammates’ Scoring in 95’ and 86’

Bulls' Scoring With/Without MJ in 95'

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

Kukoc without MJ: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS
Kukoc with MJ: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS

Armstrong without MJ: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS
Armstrong with MJ: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4

So the Bulls' top 3 scorers went from 53.0 PPG without MJ to 44.1 PPG with him. That is a large decline but with MJ consuming 24 FGA and 33% usage the others will pay a price.

Bulls’ Teammates Scoring With/Without MJ in 86’

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

Gervin without MJ: 17.8/2.9/1.9 47.7% FG 10.5 GS
Gervin with MJ: 11.1/1.9/0.9 46.3% FG 5.6 GS

Green without MJ: 14.8/8.9/2.0 48.9% FG 10.4 GS
Green with MJ: 7.8/5.2/0.9 32.4% 3.8 GS

So his top scoring teammates went from a combined 54.1 PPG to 34.8 PPG with him.

*10th in scoring before MJ returned. For context, Ewing was 6th at 23.9, Barkley 7th at 23.0, Drexler scored 21.8, Penny 20.9, Payton 20.6, Hill 19.9, Miller 19.6, Kemp 18.7 in that same season. All players who MJ stans say were great scorers while Pippen was a "mediocre" scorer.


100%

And no one says "YEAH BUT THATS NOT FAIR BECAUSE HANK AARON/BARRY BONDS/BABE RUTH PLAYED MORE YEARS!"

Uh..That's the reward of sustaining elite level play over numerous years. Peaks are nice but I'd rather have 10 great years than 2 amazing ones. This is a classic Scottie Pippen or Tracy McGrady.

[Rico2016]

Not only are his averages inflated by premature retirements, MJ was a one trick pony. His entire career he played in the same role (with the exception of about 20 games we always hear about in the 80's), even in Washington. Wilt's PPG went down because he became a facilitator on the Sixers and then on the Lakers became a defensive/rebounding anchor in the Russell role. When he was tasked with scoring no one then or after could come close to him.

It is funny this versatility is held against Wilt, not a plus for him. If you draft Wilt you can build a variety of teams around him. You can have him be a dominant scorer and focus on defense and other skills around him. You can have him facilitate. You can have him focus on defense/rebounding and have him co-exist with elite scorers like West and Baylor.

With Jordan you needed the same type of team around him to win. He couldn't succeed with West and Baylor, for instance, because he demanded so many shots (even on the Dream Team he took 40% more shots than the second most frequent shooter).

Bingo. Like how in the tf can you punish Kareem for playing more years and reward MJ for quitting like a weak minded individual twice? That man had three retirements! Sheesh.

Kareem > MJ

It's making more sense the more we unravel.

[Run DLC]

At the end of his career, the only thing critics will be able to nitpick is his finals losses. He’s be at the top of every other relevant stats there is.

[Rico2016]

At the end of his career, the only thing critics will be able to nitpick is his finals losses. He’s be at the top of every other relevant stats there is.

And I'd say a 1st round exit is 4x as bad as a Finals exit.

[86Celtics]

Not only are his averages inflated by premature retirements, MJ was a one trick pony. His entire career he played in the same role (with the exception of about 20 games we always hear about in the 80's), even in Washington. Wilt's PPG went down because he became a facilitator on the Sixers and then on the Lakers became a defensive/rebounding anchor in the Russell role. When he was tasked with scoring no one then or after could come close to him.

It is funny this versatility is held against Wilt, not a plus for him. If you draft Wilt you can build a variety of teams around him. You can have him be a dominant scorer and focus on defense and other skills around him. You can have him facilitate. You can have him focus on defense/rebounding and have him co-exist with elite scorers like West and Baylor.

With Jordan you needed the same type of team around him to win. He couldn't succeed with West and Baylor, for instance, because he demanded so many shots (even on the Dream Team he took 40% more shots than the second most frequent shooter).

3 paragraphs of utter bullshit. He played 15 seasons at the highest of levels and at the end of them he averaged over 30 points per game. You don't like it and you have to come up with all kind of ridiculous statements and hypotheticals. Jordan coudn't co-exist with West and Baylor? How the hell do you know what he'd do? Because of an Olympic tournament which was child's play for his team? And why does it have to be him that defers to West and Baylor when he's at least their equal at scoring? Chamberlain played with them past his prime. How do you know what would happen if he had them in his best years?

You are full of shit Roundball.

[3ball]

Anyone average 30/5/5 for their career?

[Jordan96]

Anyone average 30/5/5 for their career?


Wilts 30/23/4 is better

[Roundball_Rock]

100%

And no one says "YEAH BUT THATS NOT FAIR BECAUSE HANK AARON/BARRY BONDS/BABE RUTH PLAYED MORE YEARS!"

Uh..That's the reward of sustaining elite level play over numerous years. Peaks are nice but I'd rather have 10 great years than 2 amazing ones. This is a classic Scottie Pippen or Tracy McGrady.

Yup and it is debatable if MJ even had the best prime or best peak. MJ stans present is as fact. Wilt, Kareem put up better prime numbers than MJ, who was dominant only in scoring and not on the glass or as a passer. Is something like 33/6/6 better than 30/16/5/4 or something like 38/22/5 or whatever Wilt did? (not exact numbers but approximations of what they did in their primes.)


Like how in the tf can you punish Kareem for playing more years and reward MJ for quitting like a weak minded individual twice?

Kareem never missed more than 20 games either. MJ missed 64 games in 86'. When you factor in injuries, retirements, and how diminished MJ was in Washington, he had 10 or 11 elite seasons. Kareem had 17 and then another legit all-star season in 87'. LeBron is on the same track as KAJ. So if the prime gap is small (even if you give MJ the edge) but the longevity gap huge it is hard to have MJ as GOAT.

[Lebron23]

Lebron current total points in the regular season. 34,195

[bullettooth]

Honesty his playoff points total is so wildly underrated, we just assume he has the record despite only making 13 post seasons. Plenty of players made equal playoffs or more and still scored less. MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem. Regular season points are nice, too, but the playoffs totals are no another level. Assuming the playoffs starts eventually this year he should eclipse the 7,000 mark while the #2 guy only has 5,9xx. Straight wild.

When you have first rounds that are best of 7 and your name is LeBron, you obviously go to many game 7s.

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but sure, let's give LeBron a nice pat on the back.

[Tobio-Star]

I wonder how MJ stans will feel like when LeBron wins 3 (or even 2) more rings and is unanimously recognized as the GOAT.

I feel like a lot of people here might be on suicide watch

[Tobio-Star]

Its as if MJ being 2nd would destroy the meaning of their life :(

[Marchesk]

Jordan was better when he wasn't retiring.

[Round Mound]

Lebron has the cumulative stats over Jordan but Jordan has the per game and efficiency stats over Lebron. I value the last stats much more because they evidence dominance over longevity.

[FromDowntown]

All time leading scorer in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.

LeGOAT

https://i.postimg.cc/CK9WwBPy/23to6to23.jpg

[FromDowntown]

Lebron has the cumulative stats over Jordan but Jordan has the per game and efficiency stats over Lebron. I value the last stats much more because they evidence dominance over longevity.

What if I told you they both played 13 playoffs but LBJ made 3 more Finals :eek:

[Vino24]

What if I told you they both played 13 playoffs but LBJ made 3 more Finals :eek:

LeBron did all that while being MJ and Pippen rolled into one

[3ball]

Lebron's hip will give out this year or next.. book it

[Roundball_Rock]

Its as if MJ being 2nd would destroy the meaning of their life :(

:lol

[Shooter]

Its as if MJ being 2nd would destroy the meaning of their life :(

+1

These idiots would never accept reality because of this :lpl