Isn't it weird how Hakeem suddenly revealed himself and rose to top when MJ retired

[3ball]

No warning - before 1994, no one was saying "hakeem is #2 behind MJ".. it naturally revealed itself after the top dog was gone.

But how did that transition/realization take place?

It's almost like his teammates and others in the league started looking around as the season wore on, and it eventually dawned on everyone - "with no Michael around, that tall Nigerian man looks like the best player".. once this realization happened, Hakeem started to assume the role - he started playing at a level we'd never seen before - a confidence - that we'd never seen... It's almost like a lion that realizes he's now king.

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w

[1987_Lakers]

He actually finished #2 in the MVP voting in 1993 and won DPOY that year. Houston was also 2-0 vs Chicago that season.

[RRR3]

Hakeem was literally second in MVP voting in 1993, so obviously someone considered him the second best player you goddamn idiot.

[3ball]

He actually finished #2 in the MVP voting in 1993 and won DPOY that year. Houston was also 2-0 vs Chicago that season.

He was upset in the playoffs though and didn't play anything like his 94' and 95' campaigns as "king of the hill".. people figured it was just another loss like his whole career

Apparently it means a lot to know you're king of the hill

[3ball]

Btw, Hakeem wasn't considered the #2 player in 1993

Barkley won MVP and MJ was the best player

Again, no one was saying hakeem was #2 behind Mike in 93'... He only rose to that level once mike was gone and he realized that he was the new king of the hill - only then did the "dream shake" go mainstream

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He won the title in 1994 with his 2nd best player averaging 13PPG. I figured that would blow you away considering your obsession with #2 scoring options during the finals.

[tpols]

It's almost like a lion that realizes he's now king.

pauk wheere you at bro :lol

[1987_Lakers]

He won the title in 1994 with his 2nd best player averaging 13PPG. I figured that would blow you away considering your obsession with #2 scoring options during the finals.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

He won the title in 1994 with his 2nd best player averaging 13PPG. I figured that would blow you away considering your obsession with #2 scoring options during the finals.

I've always given Hakeem credit for a goat carry-job in 1994 because those are tough - MJ had 6 of them

And this thread is NOT a knock on Hakeem

But again, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows with MJ around just like Hakeem was..

[Soundwave]

Hakeem's career is a little weird in that it seemed like he didn't peak until age 32/33.

He had by his standards somewhat down years at age 28/29 which is also kinda weird but probably related to injury.

The Rockets were weird all around, they beat the Lakers in the 80s to make the Finals so you would think they would've been in the mix continually after that as Hakeem got better, but that wasn't the case.

[3ball]

Hakeem's career is a little weird in that it seemed like he didn't peak until age 32/33.

He had by his standards somewhat down years at age 28/29 which is also kinda weird but probably related to injury.

The Rockets were weird all around, they beat the Lakers in the 80s to make the Finals so you would think they would've been in the mix continually after that as Hakeem got better, but that wasn't the case.

He was a different Hakeem in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

So apparently, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows with MJ around just like Hakeem was

So I find it fascinating that Hakeem naturally rose to the top when MJ retired, and looked like a totally different player as king of the hill compared to previously

[Lion's pride]

On that note, Jordan actually started winning when Bird retired.. there ya go..

[2ball]

Spot on. Turns out Hakeem was ducking MJ

[Jordan96]

Isn't it weird that MJ retired and quit basketball right before Hakeem's peak?

[Lebron23]

Hakeem's career is a little weird in that it seemed like he didn't peak until age 32/33.

He had by his standards somewhat down years at age 28/29 which is also kinda weird but probably related to injury.

The Rockets were weird all around, they beat the Lakers in the 80s to make the Finals so you would think they would've been in the mix continually after that as Hakeem got better, but that wasn't the case.

Ralph Samson getting injured and being traded to another team was the reason rockets not being a serious contender for a couple of years. By the way houston was 11-5 against the bulls in their head to head matchup from 1987 to 1995.

[Soundwave]

Ralph Samson getting injured and being traded to another team was the reason rockets not being a serious contender for a couple of years. By the way houston was 11-5 against the bulls in their head to head matchup from 1987 to 1995.

The Cavs also used to dominate the Bulls in regular season match ups ... playoffs didn't go the same way.

And yes it would have been interesting to see how things would've have proceeded if Ralph Sampson was more durable, but 7'4 and being fairly skinny was always probably going to end in problems.

[3ball]

On that note, Jordan actually started winning when Bird retired.. there ya go..

MJ was "god" from 1986, whereas Hakeem was a different player in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

Apparently, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows just like MJ did Hakeem

So I find it fascinating that Hakeem naturally rose to the top when MJ retired, and looked like a totally different player as king of the hill compared to previously

[SouBeachTalents]

He beat the showtime Lakers and took the '86 Celtics to 6 games his sophomore year. He also swept the team that beat Jordan.

Hakeem's '94 & '95 playoff runs > Jordan's two best

[Jordan96]

MJ was "god" from 1986, whereas Hakeem was a different player in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

Apparently, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows just like MJ did Hakeem

So I find it fascinating that Hakeem naturally rose to the top when MJ retired, and looked like a totally different player as king of the hill compared to previously

Why did Jordan lose in 1995 while Hakeem won the title that season?

Jordan couldn't even make the Finals to lose to Hakeem, he lost in the 2nd round

And Pippen >> Hakeem's second option

[Soundwave]

He beat the showtime Lakers and took the '86 Celtics to 6 games his sophomore year. He also swept the team that beat Jordan.

Hakeem's '94 & '95 playoff runs > Jordan's two best

Which then begs the question ... where exactly was that in 93, 96, 97, and 98. He had his chances in those years too. Michael Jordan wasn't the one getting beat by the likes of Shawn Kemp and Karl Malone.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I've always given Hakeem credit for a goat carry-job in 1994 because those are tough - MJ had 6 of them

And this thread is NOT a knock on Hakeem

But again, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows with MJ around just like Hakeem was..

Hakeem was 2nd best, Jordan 1st best. Hakeem became 1st best when Jordan retired. I don't see your point here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hakeem was literally second in MVP voting in 1993, so obviously someone considered him the second best player you goddamn idiot.

Basically.

Here's Hubie Brown talking about Hakeem's play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9-Y1fo-jJs), and he's spot on.

93 r/s: 26pts, 13reb, 4ast, 4blk, 2stl on 53%FG
94 r/s: 27pts, 12reb, 4ast, 4blk, 2stl on 53%FG

93 playoffs: 26pts, 14reb, 5ast, 5blk, 2stl on 52%FG
94 playoffs: 29pts(3 more FGA), 11reb, 4ast, 4blk, 2stl on 52%FG

Anyone thinking '94 Hakeem was some "different player", need to watch his series vs LA and Seattle. In 1993. Hakeem did absolutely anything he wanted. In a closeout game vs the Clippers, dude had 31 points, grabbed 21 boards and had 7 blocks. Shot over 50% too.

The REAL 'difference' between 93 and 94 was just the team itself. Hakeem didn't have much help in '94 either, but had another year playing beside the same core. In 94 Houston also added Cassell and Mario Ellie - big shot makers.

[light]

I don't know about that.

Hakeem had just finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1993. Jordan came in 3rd. It was the fist time since 1987 that someone not named Magic or Barkley finished ahead of him in MVP voting (Barkley was 2nd to Magic in 1990).

So Olajuwan had already made his move before 1994.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

MJ was "god" from 1986, whereas Hakeem was a different player in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

Apparently, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows just like MJ did Hakeem

So I find it fascinating that Hakeem naturally rose to the top when MJ retired, and looked like a totally different player as king of the hill compared to previously

How was Jordan king of the hill in the 80s? he couldn't even get out of the 2nd round until 1989.

Magic could use the same argument "Jordan didn't become king of the hill until I got aids and Kareem retired".

[Phoenix]

For whatever reason the Rockets couldn't beat the Sonics. Beat them on either side of the 94 and 95 titles, being unceremoniously swept as champs in 96. Just the way matchups go at times.

[Roundball_Rock]

He actually finished #2 in the MVP voting in 1993 and won DPOY that year. Houston was also 2-0 vs Chicago that season.

Exactly. Hakeem's peak was 1993-1995, he just didn't get the same recognition with the public because in 93' they won 55 games and lost in the second round versus winning the title the following two years.


He won the title in 1994 with his 2nd best player averaging 13PPG. I figured that would blow you away considering your obsession with #2 scoring options during the finals.

:lol

Meanwhile Ewing averaged only 18.9 PPG on 36% shooting as a center and Ewing was the best player on MJ's top competition.


Ralph Samson getting injured and being traded to another team was the reason rockets not being a serious contender for a couple of years.

Hakeem was part of it too, though. His level of play dipped. People assume Hakeem was the same guy his entire career. He wasn't. Look at all-NBA centers in the years prior to 1993-1995:

1990: Ewing 1st, Hakeem 2nd, Robinson 3rd
1991: Robinson 1st, Ewing 2nd, Hakeem 3rd (Hakeem 56 games)
1992: Robinson 1st, Ewing 2nd, Daughtery 3rd

So he was behind Ewing three years in a row and Robinson two of three years. Injury could explain 91' in theory but he was behind Ewing the year before and after too. Even Daughtery was ahead of him in 92'. This was after Hakeem was the 1st team center from 1987-1989 (Kareem was in 86' and Moses in 85').

[Phoenix]

That's why I say that 93-95 run has re-written narratives surrounding how the top centers were actually viewed before Hakeem broke through in 94. Alot of talk was that Robinson was going to take over the league from MJ. Hakeem was obviously a top player but he wasn't considered a tier above Admiral and Ewing, and I don't think anyone was looking at Dream to take over the league or had the Rockets favoured to win in 94. To his credit he outplayed his rivals in the playoffs when it counted so he fairly emerged as the best center of the era, but outside of that period Robinson and Hakeem played each other alot closer than that 95 series.

[LAL]

That's why I say that 93-95 run has re-written narratives surrounding how the top centers were actually viewed before Hakeem broke through in 94. Alot of talk was that Robinson was going to take over the league from MJ. Hakeem was obviously a top player but he wasn't considered a tier above Admiral and Ewing, and I don't think anyone was looking at Dream to take over the league or had the Rockets favoured to win in 94. To his credit he outplayed his rivals in the playoffs when it counted so he fairly emerged as the best center of the era, but outside of that period Robinson and Hakeem played each other alot closer than that 95 series.

I agree. Hell of a player though, his skills on both ends and workload in his prime was admirable.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's why I say that 93-95 run has re-written narratives surrounding how the top centers were actually viewed before Hakeem broke through in 94. Alot of talk was that Robinson was going to take over the league from MJ. Hakeem was obviously a top player but he wasn't considered a tier above Admiral and Ewing, and I don't think anyone was looking at Dream to take over the league or had the Rockets favoured to win in 94. To his credit he outplayed his rivals in the playoffs when it counted so he fairly emerged as the best center of the era, but outside of that period Robinson and Hakeem played each other alot closer than that 95 series.

Exactly. They weren't different statistically either up to 93'.

Ewing 1986-1992: 24/10/2 53%
Hakeem 1985-1992: 23/13/2 51%
Robinson 1990-1992: 24/12/2 54%

The debate in 94' and 95' was Hakeem and Robinson as the best player. It has been forgotten because of the WCF but up until then they were considered equal those two years (and as you noted, prior to 93' Robinson probably was considered a bit better). Now it is (mis)remembered as Hakeem owning the league and clearly being the best.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Exactly. They weren't different statistically either up to 93'.

Ewing 1986-1992: 24/10/2 53%
Hakeem 1985-1992: 23/13/2 51%
Robinson 1990-1992: 24/12/2 54%

The debate in 94' and 95' was Hakeem and Robinson as the best player. It has been forgotten because of the WCF but up until then they were considered equal (and as you noted, prior to 93' Robinson probably was considered a bit better).

The main difference is Hakeem can be counted on as a 1st option scorer for a playoff run, while the other two can't be.

[32jazz]

Ralph Samson getting injured and being traded to another team was the reason rockets not being a serious contender for a couple of years. By the way houston was 11-5 against the bulls in their head to head matchup from 1987 to 1995.


Best PG John Lucas was released in 1986 due to alcohol/ drug addiction.,( Found sleeping barefoot in a suit on the streets of Houston). 2 more Rockets Lewis Lloyd & Mitchell Wiggins were banned from the NBA for substance abuse.


Olajuwon lost Sampson ( injury) & 3 other teammates from the 86 team ( substance abuse) & he was unhappy in Houston for years afterwards.

[Roundball_Rock]

The main difference is Hakeem can be counted on as a 1st option scorer for a playoff run, while the other two can't be.

That wasn't known until 94' and 95' when Hakeem rose to the occasion and the other two folded. Playoffs stats through 93':

Hakeem 26/13/3 on 54%
Ewing 24/11/3 on 49%
Robinson 24/13/3 on 52%

So Hakeem has a slight edge--but Hakeem lost in the first round four years in a row and then missed the playoffs the next year. So no one cared he was going 27/14/2 in 3-4 game "series." Until 93' Hakeem had two playoff runs and they came back in 86' (finals) and 87' (second round).

[3ball]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif



Hakeem understood the "king of the hill" effect and once it dawned on everyone that hakeem was best in 94', he assumed the role himself, and felt comfortable to play his game, aka constant dream shake

[2ball]

Hakeem Olajuwon on Michael Jordan circa 1995: "If he were an animal in the jungle Michael Jordan could lie out on the biggest rock and no one would disturb him, no one would attack him"

Michael Jordan is a natural athlete. His form is perfect, he has strong basketball basics and fundamentals, and his game is all footwork. At 6’6” he is an in-between player. Most 6’6” players are small forwards; he is a natural guard. That’s why he creates problems-Michael Jordan is a big guard. He does everything guards can do, and much more, with size. He’s as quick as other guards but bigger, so he takes advantage by shooting over them. When he plays bigger guys he’s quicker than they are and has great ball-handling skills, so he beats his man easily, makes the shot and gets fouled. He also has very big hands-big man’s hands. When he shakes your hand you don’t think he’s a guard. He could palm the ball like Dr. J, which made his ball control even greater."

"Michael Jordan is a very creative player; you cannot predict what he is going to do. Even when you think you’ve got his shot blocked at the last minute he will change it. You can never think, Well, I’ve cornered him, I’ve trapped him, there’s nothing there this time. I have forced him into many difficult situations over the years and he has come out of them. Once he’s under the basket, there’s no way for a 6’6” guard to shoot over a man five inches taller than he is. We wait for these kinds of opportunities! But Michael Jordan would come inside and hang in the air. I knew I had him blocked-I could feel the basketball-but he would just hang there. Where most other players would try to force it over me, Jordan would realize there was nowhere to go and on his way down take the ball back and pass off-maybe to his man behind the three-point line. I’m coming down, he’s coming down, and he still makes something happen. I thought I had a block, now they’ve got three points."

[2ball]

Continued...


"But on top of being physically gifted, Michael Jordan is smart. He won’t settle for an open jumper. Most players will, they like taking open shots. But Michael Jordan is a very intelligent player and he wants better than I’m giving him, so he dribbles toward me. It’s unusual for a guard to dribble toward a big man if he wants to shoot a jumper. But this is Michael Jordan. If I’m going to let him shoot I back off some more, and some more, until he’s even closer to the basket and has an even easier shot. I can’t keep giving ground, and with every step backward I’m more off balance. Sooner or later I’ll have to come to him, at which point he can either shoot before I get there or drive around me. It’s a very subtle, very impressive set of decisions he makes."

"When he came into the league Michael Jordan was criticized for being selfish. People used to complain all the time that he was shooting too much, twenty-eight times a game, and not getting his teammates involved. I never bought into that premise. Michael Jordan is a team player, he plays to win. When he takes his shot it’s because he thinks he can score. And he can! He was just taking the first responsibility of the offense-creating opportunities. When he gets the ball he can pass of score or finish the play. Early in his career he was doing the work of two or three people, first in bringing the ball downcourt, then either shooting or passing; he was controlling the tempo of the game. And he still does. Inside, outside, he plays guard, he plays forward, he plays center-and he always does damage. I’ve seen big men not even try to stop him, they get out of his way; he explodes on them and they don’t want to get dunked on."

Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other. When you put together your game plan you figure that unless someone has an outstanding night, this is a stand-off, the game will be won by the other teammates. But Michael Jordan isn’t neutralized. He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars

[Akeem34TheDream]

Op is a cuck

[Manny98]

MJ was "god" from 1986, whereas Hakeem was a different player in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

Apparently, he wasn't comfortable taking the "dream shake" mainstream until he was the new king of the hill.. the "king of the hill" effect is real and it would've pushed lebron into the shadows just like MJ did Hakeem

So I find it fascinating that Hakeem naturally rose to the top when MJ retired, and looked like a totally different player as king of the hill compared to previously
God's don't get swept in the first round :roll:

[tpols]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif



Hakeem understood the "king of the hill" effect and once it dawned on everyone that hakeem was best in 94', he assumed the role himself, and felt comfortable to play his game, aka constant dream shake

damning evidence.

There's no doubt hakeem breathed a sigh of relief when he knew he wouldnt have to face MJ to win.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That wasn't known until 94' and 95' when Hakeem rose to the occasion and the other two folded. Playoffs stats through 93':

Hakeem 26/13/3 on 54%
Ewing 24/11/3 on 49%
Robinson 24/13/3 on 52%

So Hakeem has a slight edge--but Hakeem lost in the first round four years in a row and then missed the playoffs the next year. So no one cared he was going 27/14/2 in 3-4 game "series." Until 93' Hakeem had two playoff runs and they came back in 86' (finals) and 87' (second round).

Hakeem never really had the opportunity in the playoffs to prove himself as an alpha until 1994 when Jordan/Pippen broke up. Once that happened, he was clearly on another tier over any center ever besides Shaq and Kareem.

[Soundwave]

Game recognizes game. Hakeem always has said Jordan was the best and Jordan has always been very complimentary of Hakeem's game, I think he always takes Hakeem over any other center in NBA history when asked to name the four guys he would want to play with.

It's quite the compliment when the best player ever picks you over Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, etc.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Game recognizes game. Hakeem always has said Jordan was the best and Jordan has always been very complimentary of Hakeem's game, I think he always takes Hakeem over any other center in NBA history when asked to name the four guys he would want to play with.

It's quite the compliment when the best player ever picks you over Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, etc.
If you're referring to Jordan, it's definitely not a compliment.

Worst GM/OWNER in sports history.

Anything MJ says about a player is taken with grain of salt

[Soundwave]

If you're referring to Jordan, it's definitely not a compliment.

Worst GM/OWNER in sports history.

Anything MJ says about a player is taken with grain of salt

lol, who cares, if the best player ever says he wants you on his squad that's a big compliment, I'm sure "Mr. I Wear Number 23 And Was Dying To Star In Space Jam 2" would cream himself to be given a compliment from Jordan like that.

Kobe and LeBron are biggest Jordan nutriders ever, grown men trying to imitate their childhood hero/adopted daddy well into their 30s.

[AlternativeAcc.]

lol, who cares, if the best player ever says he wants you on his squad that's a big compliment, I'm sure "Mr. I Wear Number 23 And Was Dying To Star In Space Jam 2" would cream himself to be given a compliment from Jordan like that.

Kobe and LeBron are biggest Jordan nutriders ever, grown men trying to imitate their childhood hero/adopted daddy well into their 30s.

Players, especially current, inherently spend more time practicing their craft and focusing on their game than intelligently analyzing other players. The best players spend the most time on their game and the least time on analysis.

Great players speaking on who motivated them growing up speaks to nothing but the fact that popularity is an important factor in the inspiration of young athletes.

[Soundwave]

Players, especially current, inherently spend more time practicing their craft and focusing on their game than intelligently analyzing other players. The best players spend the most time on their game and the least time on analysis.

Great players speaking on who motivated them growing up speaks to nothing but the fact that popularity is an important factor in the inspiration of young athletes.

These two were nut riders admit it. At least they chose the best ever to nut ride so they have good taste in that sense.

If I was a star basketball player, as much I liked Jordan, f*ck no would I wear no. 23, it's just corny to me and then want to be in Space Jam 2 and lobbying for years to do it, lol. C'mon.

It's clear as day both Kobe and LeBron saw Jordan as a type of surrogate daddy that they're always chasing after.

[AlternativeAcc.]

These two were nut riders admit it. At least they chose the best ever to nut ride so they have good taste in that sense.

If I was a star basketball player, as much I liked Jordan, f*ck no would I wear no. 23, it's just corny to me and then want to be in Space Jam 2, lol. C'mon.

It's clear as day both Kobe and LeBron see Jordan as a type of surrogate daddy that they're always chasing.

Lebron had an Allen Iverson section on his wall in high school.

I've never argued against the notion that Jordan was hyped like no other athlete in history and has more nut riders than anyone else.

The point is that it doesn't ****ing matter who lebron and kobe idolized growing up. It literally doesn't matter.

[Soundwave]

Dad Killer ducked Dream.

You gonna have classy jokes about Kobe dying with his daughter in a couple of years too, sh*t face?

[sdot_thadon]

The people who really watched Dream's career closely know the "dreamshake" didn't start in 1994. I've always had a problem with the line of thinking that the dreamshake is a move, its his entire post play system once he mastered it. We called basically every slick post counter move he's ever done a dreamshake after the nickname gained popularity. Dream had a counter for your counter and a 2nd and 3rd counter for any adjustments you did or didn't even get to make because he froze you with the previous counter move...... He was incredible to watch for that stretch and yes 3ball he was an absolute monster before 94 his best seasons arguably came before his titles, the Rockets success did not. We had a problem in the seasons prior to title wins with getting up big and losing leads. It was a meme in the papers in the early 90s.....

[Soundwave]

Whoa wtf? Why even bring this up?

Yeah so that's not OK (at least not right now) but making jokes about a player who had their dad murdered is fair game? Call it out when you see it.

[Rico2016]

Isn't it weird how MJ suddenly revealed himself and rose to top when Bird and Magic retired

[Soundwave]

Isn't it weird how MJ suddenly revealed himself and rose to top when Bird and Magic retired

Yeah it's MJ's fault Magic got HIV and could only beat him once.

[Rico2016]

He actually finished #2 in the MVP voting in 1993 and won DPOY that year. Houston was also 2-0 vs Chicago that season.

Decimation

[Soundwave]

Meltdown? Get a grip man

No, it's fair game, if you're going to make comments like that about family members of players who have died and just casually say it, you deserve to be called out. It would not (and should not) be acceptable to make jokes like that about Kobe and it should not be for Jordan's father.

That is gross and anyone who does as that piece of shit poster does should be called out for it. Plain and simple.

We were having a decent discussion and then that moron decides to come into the thread and make a joke about a player's father who was murdered. If you sit there and do nothing you're complicit in that type of garbage behavior as far as I'm concerned.

[brownmamba00]

I wish we could've seen MJ in that 95 finals. Clyde + dream would've gave him headaches no doubt.

Too bad he was busy being a shitty baseball player.

[Turbo Slayer]

If you wish to join Soundwave in dishonouring the dead, be my guest. Just know that proper action will be taken against such cruel and hostile comments!

Dont forget that you started this shit. You tryna get a reaction around here?

[brownmamba00]

Imagine talking shit about dead people on a messageboard

[Soundwave]

Imagine talking shit about dead people on a messageboard

Props to the mods for cleaning that garbage out. What a loser.

Back to the topic at hand, I got lots of respect for Hakeem, skill wise I think he's one of the top 10 players to ever do it.

[Turbo Slayer]

Props to the mods for cleaning that garbage out. What a loser.

Back to the topic at hand, I got lots of respect for Hakeem, skill wise I think he's one of the top 10 players to ever do it. Yep.

Thanks Kblaze!

[FKAri]

Buncha snitches up in here...

Anyways.
Back on topic:



Hakeem suddenly revealing himself in 94:

https://img.mediacentrum.sk/gallery/640/3113264.jpg



MJ suddenly revealing himself in 95:

https://www.maleultracore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/What-Is-a-Micropenis-2.jpg

[3ball]

Thread Cliffs

MJ would've made lebron go unnoticed like he did Hakeem

Magic and Larry would've also been diminished if they hadn't come along first, before MJ

[HoopsNY]

He was a different Hakeem in 1994 that we hadn't seen before

His 1992-93 season was arguably the best of his career. He had a career high in PER, WS/48, TS%, BPM, and VORP. He didn't just come out of nowhere, and he wasn't performing completely different to the way he did between 1993-1995.

[3ball]

Hakeem was 2nd best, Jordan 1st best. Hakeem became 1st best when Jordan retired. I don't see your point here.

Barkley was MVP in 1993 and MJ was the best player

No one was calling Hakeem #2 in 1993

And no one mentioned Hakeem in the 93' Playoffs - it was all about Barkley - in 94' the roles were reversed

[1987_Lakers]

MJ had a 1-5 record against Houston from '91-'93, he wanted no smoke with Hakeem. He knew Hakeem and the Rockets were coming after Hakeem's breakout year in '93 when he had more MVP votes than him, instead of accepting the challenge, he retired.

[Whoah10115]

Great stamina and mental fortitude by OP.

[3ball]

MJ had a 1-5 record against Houston from '91-'93, he wanted no smoke with Hakeem. He knew Hakeem and the Rockets were coming after Hakeem's breakout year in '93 when he had more MVP votes than him, instead of accepting the challenge, he retired.

Hakeem was on no one's radar in 1993 because he had a career of losing - it business as usual when Hakeem lost again in 1993

[1987_Lakers]

Hakeem was on no one's radar in 1993 because he had a career of losing - it business as usual when Hakeem lost again in 1993

Obviously he was on alot of people's radar, finished with more MVP votes than Jordan.

[Rico2016]

MJ had a 1-5 record against Houston from '91-'93, he wanted no smoke with Hakeem. He knew Hakeem and the Rockets were coming after Hakeem's breakout year in '93 when he had more MVP votes than him, instead of accepting the challenge, he retired.

Decimation

[RogueBorg]

Houston was also 2-0 vs Chicago that season.

Utah was 2-0 versus Chicago in '98 regular season.

[PP34Deuce]

Houston 94 team had a great mix of role players. The shooters plus a young athletic Robert Horry who could switch. That team would have gave the bulls fits

[Phoenix]

Houston 94 team had a great mix of role players. The shooters plus a young athletic Robert Horry who could switch. That team would have gave the bulls fits

That team would have been great in this era too. Hakeem with Horry, Elie, Drexler, Jet, Cassell is a pretty modern lineup. Drexler might even play the 3 spot and have both Jet and Cassell in the backcourt. Dream would have no more trouble having to switch as any center playing today. He would be the most agile 5 in the league.

[Roundball_Rock]

Obviously he was on alot of people's radar, finished with more MVP votes than Jordan.

:lol

Peak Jordan too.

[Turbo Slayer]

The Dream :cheers:

[post]

Barkley was MVP in 1993 and MJ was the best player

No one was calling Hakeem #2 in 1993

And no one mentioned Hakeem in the 93' Playoffs - it was all about Barkley - in 94' the roles were reversed

hakeem and barkley both played well in the 93 playoffs

houston lost in 7 games to seattle and phoenix beat seattle in 7 games

why?

phoenix was the better team and had home court. it's not hakeem's fault. just like it's not jordan's fault he lost to better teams in the 80s and 1990

[hateraid]

Funny how 3ball sill doesn't realize basketball is a team sport

[3ball]

Funny how 3ball sill doesn't realize basketball is a team sport

Hakeem went to another level in the 94' Playoffs that we hadn't seen before:



Usage in Playoffs

1993... 27.8%
1994... 31.4%
1995... 35.9%


^^^ pace was 91 each year, so Hakeem used 3 more possessions in 1994, and 8 more possessions in 1995 - he lost in 93' because he wasn't this active - he only had 26.9 usage when he lost to 93' Sonics in 7 games and he'd never been over 30% usage past the 1st Round and

What inspired Hakeem to step up his activity in 1994 more than he ever did before?

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Hakeem went to another level in the 94' Playoffs that we hadn't seen before:



1993 Playoff Usage... 27.8
1994 Playoff Usage... 31.4
1995 Playoff Usage... 35.9


^^^ pace was 91 each year, so Hakeem used 3 more possessions in 1994, and 8 more possessions in 1995 - he lost in 93' because he wasn't this active - he'd never been over 30% usage past the 1st Round

What inspired Hakeem to step up his activity in 1994 more than he ever did before?

Jordan retiring had something to do with it. He thought “this is my shot” and dedicated himself harder than he ever had before.

[3ball]

Jordan retiring had something to do with it. He thought “this is my shot” and dedicated himself harder than he ever had before.

When Hakeem lost in 7 games to Seattle in the 1993 WCSF, his usage was only 26.9%, compared to 31.4 and 35.9 in the 94/95 Playoffs

That means he was using 5-12 more possessions in 94/95, which explains why he won those years

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the head lion was gone

[Rico2016]

Isn't it weird how MJ suddenly revealed himself and rose to top when Bird and Magic retired

3ball?

[3ball]

3ball?

Jordan's usage was 40% against the Celtics, the highest of his career, so he was already using a maximum number of possessions and playing his full game

Otoh, Hakeem didn't have 30% usage until 1994 - his usage was only 26.9 when he lost to the 93' Sonics in 7 games, so he would've won by using 5-12 more possessions like he did in 94' and 95' Playoffs

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He realized that he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. Similarly, MJ's presence and the "king of the hill" effect would make lebron disappear just like pre-94' Hakeem

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny how 3ball sill doesn't realize basketball is a team sport

None of his ilk seem to. It appears they Googled who has the highest career PPG and decided to become stans of that guy.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

When Hakeem lost in 7 games to Seattle in the 1993 WCSF, his usage was only 26.9%, compared to 31.4 and 35.9 in the 94/95 Playoffs

That means he was using 5-12 more possessions in 94/95, which explains why he won those years

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the head lion was gone

That sounds about right.

[Roundball_Rock]

Except for the minor detail that Jordan in the real world did play in 95'.

[Rico2016]

None of his ilk seem to. It appears they Googled who has the highest career PPG and decided to become stans of that guy.

MJ stans cry about playoff series where Pippen scored 15 on 40% with elite defense, but I don't hear Kareem fans complaining about when Oscar put up 9 on 36% shooting in the 1972 Western Conference Finals

[post]

Jordan's usage was 40% against the Celtics, the highest of his career, so he was already using a maximum number of possessions and playing his full game

Otoh, Hakeem didn't have 30% usage until 1994 - his usage was only 26.9 when he lost to the 93' Sonics in 7 games, so he would've won by using 5-12 more possessions like he did in 94' and 95' Playoffs

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He realized that he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. Similarly, MJ's presence and the "king of the hill" effect would make lebron disappear just like pre-94' Hakeem

hakeem's usage was higher in the 88 playoffs than the 94 playoffs

he played about as well as a human can play in the 88 playoffs and lost in the first round yet won a championship in 94

the obvious explanation is houston was a better team in 94 compared to 88

all of this other talk about hills and lions is unconvincing

[3ball]

all of this other talk about hills and lions is unconvincing





https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif



Hakeem understood the "king of the hill" effect and once it dawned on everyone that hakeem was best in 94', he assumed the role himself, and felt comfortable using maximum possessions and bringing the dream shake to the mainstream






Hakeem's usage was higher in the 88 playoffs than the 94 playoffs

he played about as well as a human can play in the 88 playoffs and lost in the first round yet won a championship in 94

the obvious explanation is houston was a better team in 94 compared to 88




It isn't coincidence that the only 2 times prior to 94' that Hakeem exceeded 30% usage on a playoff run were 1st Round mismatches, aka empty stat losses

Anytime he played winning basketball (won a series), his usage was below 30%, until 94' when he realized he was top dog.. Only then did he have playoff runs using the right amount of possessions

[sdot_thadon]

This guy has never watched Dream play a day in his life.

[3ball]

This guy has never watched Dream play a day in his life.

Hakeem didn't win a single playoff series while using 30% of possessions (30% usage) in his whole career......

until 1994, when he starts winning series left and right with 30% usage

1993 is a good example - Hakeem only used 26.9% of possessions while losing to Seattle in 7 games - he would've easily won that series by using 5-12 more possessions like he did in 94' and 95' (30% usage or higher)

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. similarly, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did Hakeem

[RRR3]

This guy has never watched Dream play a day in his life.
He doesn't watch basketball by his own admission.

[3ball]

He doesn't watch basketball by his own admission.
sdot_thadon lied yet you're responding to him

I never said Hakeem didn't use the dream shake before 1994 - that's ludicrous - but he wasn't nearly as good at it and wasn't using it nearly as often - that's why I said he didn't bring it MAINSTREAM until 94', which is true

Why did Hakeem go his whole career without using 30% of possessions in any series........ until 1994 when he used 30% of possessions all the time and wins 2 rings doing so?

(edit: hakeem had 30% usage once in the 88' first round loss - a mismatch with tons of empty-stat-padding.. he never won anything with 30% usage until 94', when he did it all the time)

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. similarly, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did Hakeem

[RRR3]

sdot_thadon lied yet you're responding to him

I never said Hakeem didn't use the dream shake before 1994 - that's ludicrous - but he wasn't nearly as good at it and wasn't using it nearly as often - that's why I said he didn't bring it MAINSTREAM until 94', which is true

Why did Hakeem go his whole career without using 30% of possessions in any series........ until 1994 when he used 30% of possessions all the time and wins 2 rings doing so?

(edit: hakeem had 30% usage once in the 88' first round loss - a mismatch with tons of empty-stat-padding.. he never won anything with 30% usage until 94', when he did it all the time)

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. similarly, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did Hakeem
You're a confirmed liar my dude. You can't call anyone else a liar when you made up crazy tall tales about you scoring on NBA players.

[3ball]

You're a confirmed liar my dude. You can't call anyone else a liar when you made up crazy tall tales about you scoring on NBA players.

I'm not lying whereas sdot will literally change what you said and then respond to THAT... :yaohappy:


Anyway, it's clear that hakeem used less possessions his entire career....

until 1994 when he starts using 30% possessions to win many series and titles left and right

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95 - the king lion was gone .. and Hakeem has spoken about the king lion effect and mj before... ultimately, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did lebron

[Rico2016]

This guy has never watched Dream play a day in his life.

Bingo

[3ball]

Bingo

sdot_thadon lied yet you're responding to him

I never said Hakeem didn't use the dream shake before 1994 - that's ludicrous - but he wasn't nearly as good at it and wasn't using it nearly as often - that's why I said he didn't bring it MAINSTREAM until 94', which is true

Why did Hakeem go his whole career without using 30% of possessions in any series past the 1st Round....... until 1994 when he used 30% of possessions all the time and wins 2 rings doing so?

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. similarly, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did Hakeem

[1987_Lakers]

You're a confirmed liar my dude. You can't call anyone else a liar when you made up crazy tall tales about you scoring on NBA players.

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans cry about playoff series where Pippen scored 15 on 40% with elite defense, but I don't hear Kareem fans complaining about when Oscar put up 9 on 36% shooting in the 1972 Western Conference Finals

Yeah Kareem fans and LeBron fans aren't flooding the internet daily by cherry picking the worst series of Oscar, Magic ("Tragic Magic" in the 84' finals), or Wade. The only time Oscar comes up is in the context of him being hurt several times after 71' and his aging but you don't see anyone saying "Oscar was a bum" like MJ stans do with Pippen. LeBron fans don't seem to mention Wade at all.


He doesn't watch basketball by his own admission.

Not even in the 90's? That explains a lot... :lol

[3ball]

.
Why did Hakeem only start using 30% of possessions past the 1st Round in 1994?

Why was Hakeem using 3-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 3-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?

[1987_Lakers]

.
Why did Hakeem only start using 30% of possessions past the 1st Round in 1994?

Why was Hakeem using 5-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 5-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?

He had a 29.6 usage in the 1st round of the '93 series. Talk about cherry picking. When they played the Sonics, they double teamed Hakeem anytime he got the ball which lowered his usage. If you simply watched the games instead of relying on these stats you would know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E&t=

[3ball]

He had a 29.6 usage in the 1st round of the '93 series. Talk about cherry picking. When they played the Sonics, they double teamed Hakeem anytime he got the ball which lowered his usage. If you simply watched the games instead of relying on these stats you would know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E&t=

They doubled him more in 1994 than 1993.

but his improved dream shake and new "top dog" mentality allowed him to use more possessions despite the extra attention - the extra possessions he used (31.4 usage) allowed the win, compared to 26.9 against 93' Sonics (loss)

everything you say makes my point, because I'm right - Hakeem clearly stepped it up in 94' and this is common knowledge.. the usage stats prove it

[1987_Lakers]

They doubled him more in 1994 than 1993.

but his improved dream shake and new "top dog" mentality allowed him to use more possessions despite the extra attention - the extra possessions he used (31.4 usage) allowed the win, compared to 26.9 against 93' Sonics (loss)

everything you say makes my point, because I'm right - Hakeem clearly stepped it up in 94' and this is common knowledge.. the usage stats prove it

No team double teamed Hakeem more than the Sonics, if you actually watched the games you would know that. The Sonics were known to throw everything they had on Hakeem, not just in '93 but in future seasons as well.

[jlitt]

There have been 3 all time greats that played long stretches of their careers without any help. Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. Hakeem was always great. However a few things came together for him to have that great two year stretch that stood out above the rest of his career. 1. He found Islam. Before Islam, Hakeem was a hot head and at times his own worst enemy. He had also gained a reputation around the league as being a malcontent, and every year he wanted out. It seemed that Houston backed out of a Hakeem trade every year. 2. They were ahead of the league in adopting heavy usage of the 3 which gave amazing spacing for Hakeem.

Hakeem surrounded by 3/4 3 point shooters was a deadly combo. And it worked to perfection. They caught some breaks along the way and next thing you know he wins two championships and just like that his whole legacy is completely different. I've never seen a single nba player do more for their nba legacy in two years than what Hakeem did. Without those two years he would be looked upon as how David RObinson is viewed today.

[RRR3]

.
Why did Hakeem only start using 30% of possessions past the 1st Round in 1994?

Why was Hakeem using 3-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 3-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?
Why did you lie about dunking on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row?

[1987_Lakers]

'96 is another great example. Hakeem's usage was 22.6 vs the Sonics, vs the Lakers in the first round it was 32.

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19960505&slug=2327682

The Sonics' starting center Ervin Johnson touched the ball more often than Olajuwon, scored twice as many points, had more rebounds and seemed more alive.

The Sonics double- and triple-teamed Olajuwon. When he tried to pass the ball outside, another Sonic rotated to smother the open man. For much of the game, it looked as if the Rockets were playing a man short.

[Rico2016]

Why did you lie about dunking on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row?


Dis gun b good

[3ball]

Why did you lie about dunking on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row?

I still marvel that I did it because I know how it sounds - like Ted Bundy and his 4-touchdown story in highschool

But it happened and it's not that uncommon to catch someone twice in a row while playing 1-on-1 but 4 times is the biggest outlier I had.. I guess my "ceiling" was decent after all

[3ball]

'96 is another great example. Hakeem's usage was 22.6 vs the Sonics, vs the Lakers in the first round it was 32.

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19960505&slug=2327682

The Sonics' starting center Ervin Johnson touched the ball more often than Olajuwon, scored twice as many points, had more rebounds and seemed more alive.

The Sonics double- and triple-teamed Olajuwon. When he tried to pass the ball outside, another Sonic rotated to smother the open man. For much of the game, it looked as if the Rockets were playing a man short.

Why was 1994 the first time Hakeem used 30% of possessions past the 1st Round?

Why was Hakeem using 3-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 3-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why was 1994 the first time Hakeem used 30% of possessions past the 1st Round?

Why was Hakeem using 3-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 3-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?

As soon as Rudy Tomjanovich started coaching Hakeem in 1993:

- 2nd in MVP voting in 1993 and back to back titles in 94\95

Coaching can have a massive impact on a superstar, we saw what Phil Jackson did for Jordan\Shaq\Kobe.

[1987_Lakers]

Why was 1994 the first time Hakeem used 30% of possessions past the 1st Round?

Why was Hakeem using 3-10 less possessions before 1994 (losing), and then using 3-10 more after 1994 (winning)?

What changed?.. why did everyone notice hakeem go to another level in 94'?

Nice deflect, I already answered your question. He had a 30% usage in the 1st round in '93. Hakeem's peak started in '93, when he finished ahead of MJ in the MVP voting.

[Round Mound]

Lets not forget that Hakeem wen't to the finals in his 2nd year. He wen't to the finals in the stacked 80's which is something Jordan could not do.

For real basketball fans we all knew the level of play Hakeem had. Asi i mentioned many times i laughed out loud when my friends though that Robinson was better than Hakeem in 95. I said Hakeem would destroy Robinson in the play-offs and none of them believed me and that's exactly what happened. Hakeem's level of play in the play-offs was dominant unlike D-Robs who's great stats are better in the season than in the play-offs.

[2ball]

I don't get how people can say Hakeem is a top 5 player ever, or the GOAT center. It just doesn't make sense.

Rk Player. MP FGA FG% eFG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*40.5 11.6 20.8 .556 .556 5.0 6.9 .715 14.1 4.4 1.2 3.4 3.4. pts 28.1
Shaquille ONeal* 37.7 10.7 18.6 .577 .577 5.7 10.5 .537 12.1 2.9 0.7 2.6 2.9 3.4 pts 27.1
Hakeem Olajuwon* 37.8 9.6 18.7 .516 .517 5.0 7.0 .711 12.2 2.7 1.9 3.5 3.2 3.8 pts 24.3
David Robinson* 35.8 8.1 15.5 .520 .521 6.6 9.0 .739 11.1 2.7 1.5 3.2 2.6 3.0 pts 22.8

Here are the 4 best centers of the "modern" era. This is their stats through the first 12 seasons in their careers, before they started declining. As you can see, Hakeem is clearly closer to the David Robinson tier, at least statistically, than he is to the Shaq/Kareem tier. Now, lets take a look at their career accolades and advanced stats.

clearly worse than the top 2. Worse PER, TS%, BPM, Win Shares.

Kareem: 6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988) 2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985) 6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980) 19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989) 10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986)

Shaq: 4× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2006) 3× NBA Finals MVP (2000–2002) NBA Most Valuable Player (2000) 15× NBA All-Star (1993–1998, 2000–2007, 2009) 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000, 2004, 2009) 8× All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000–2006)

Hakeem: 2× NBA champion (1994, 1995) 2× NBA Finals MVP (1994, 1995) NBA Most Valuable Player (1994) 12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997) 6× All-NBA First Team (1987–1989, 1993, 1994, 1997)

Robinson: 2× NBA champion (1999, 2003) NBA Most Valuable Player (1995) 10× NBA All-Star (1990–1996, 1998, 2000, 2001) 4× All-NBA First Team (1991, 1992, 1995, 1996)

As you can see, Hakeem is once again closer to Robinson than he is Shaq/Kareem. He is statistically worse, achieved less, and didn't have the longevity they did.

[sdot_thadon]

sdot_thadon lied yet you're responding to him

I never said Hakeem didn't use the dream shake before 1994 - that's ludicrous - but he wasn't nearly as good at it and wasn't using it nearly as often - that's why I said he didn't bring it MAINSTREAM until 94', which is true

Why did Hakeem go his whole career without using 30% of possessions in any series........ until 1994 when he used 30% of possessions all the time and wins 2 rings doing so?

(edit: hakeem had 30% usage once in the 88' first round loss - a mismatch with tons of empty-stat-padding.. he never won anything with 30% usage until 94', when he did it all the time)

And we know why he stepped it up in 94/95... He knew he was king of the hill because the king lion was gone.. similarly, MJ would make lebron disappear like he did Hakeem

Yeah that's not what you said at all either buddy. Good on you for trying to clean it up after being called out though, besides the sheer volume of posting you've always had a hell of a back pedal on you man.....:oldlol:

[post]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif



Hakeem understood the "king of the hill" effect and once it dawned on everyone that hakeem was best in 94', he assumed the role himself, and felt comfortable using maximum possessions and bringing the dream shake to the mainstream





It isn't coincidence that the only 2 times prior to 94' that Hakeem exceeded 30% usage on a playoff run were 1st Round mismatches, aka empty stat losses

Anytime he played winning basketball (won a series), his usage was below 30%, until 94' when he realized he was top dog.. Only then did he have playoff runs using the right amount of possessions

hakeem could create his own offense better than barkley. hakeem was a defensive anchor, barkley wasn't. phoenix had a borderline hall of famer in kevin johnson. hakeem didn't. despite barkley winning mvp in 93 i'd say hakeem was better, not necessarily better than jordan, but he had the potential to match jordan in a playoff series and barkley didn't

hakeem gave jordan a lot of credit and jordan gave hakeem a lot of credit

that doesn't mean either one wouldn't have tried their hardest to win if they played against each other in the finals

hakeem's 88 playoff stats are not empty just like jordan's 86 playoff stats aren't empty

was wilt empty when he averaged 45 ppg and his team failed to make the playoffs in 63? no

[sdot_thadon]

He had a 29.6 usage in the 1st round of the '93 series. Talk about cherry picking. When they played the Sonics, they double teamed Hakeem anytime he got the ball which lowered his usage. If you simply watched the games instead of relying on these stats you would know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E&t=


No team double teamed Hakeem more than the Sonics, if you actually watched the games you would know that. The Sonics were known to throw everything they had on Hakeem, not just in '93 but in future seasons as well.


There have been 3 all time greats that played long stretches of their careers without any help. Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. Hakeem was always great. However a few things came together for him to have that great two year stretch that stood out above the rest of his career. 1. He found Islam. Before Islam, Hakeem was a hot head and at times his own worst enemy. He had also gained a reputation around the league as being a malcontent, and every year he wanted out. It seemed that Houston backed out of a Hakeem trade every year. 2. They were ahead of the league in adopting heavy usage of the 3 which gave amazing spacing for Hakeem.

Hakeem surrounded by 3/4 3 point shooters was a deadly combo. And it worked to perfection. They caught some breaks along the way and next thing you know he wins two championships and just like that his whole legacy is completely different. I've never seen a single nba player do more for their nba legacy in two years than what Hakeem did. Without those two years he would be looked upon as how David RObinson is viewed today.
good stuff guys.:applause:

Especially about his faith, I can't remember for certain but I believe he became Muslim before the championship years. But young Olajuwon had stories in the streets about him being a wild one off the court in addition to a hot head on the court. His temperament was much different once he became a religious man. Also the point about the Rockets being ahead of their time on 3pt use was spot on as well. Horry actually played some stretch 4 for us before it was a thing, kinda like Sam Perkins in a way. In the city we saw him as a guy with Pippen type potential....Also had Elie as one of the prototypical 3 and D guys. Maxwell wasn't a great shooter but could get hot and have a big game from out there from time to time. Kenny was maybe the best shooter on the team and Cassell wasn't much of a shooter from 3 but his midrange was a good change of pace from Kenny's game and he had balls of steel as a rookie. Dream just carried the load down low and the guys supported him and some games it was the other way around. That team was a thrill ride for those 2 years.

[1987_Lakers]

good stuff guys.:applause:

Especially about his faith, I can't remember for certain but I believe he became Muslim before the championship years. But young Olajuwon had stories in the streets about him being a wild one off the court in addition to a hot head on the court. His temperament was much different once he became a religious man. Also the point about the Rockets being ahead of their time on 3pt use was spot on as well. Horry actually played some stretch 4 for us before it was a thing, kinda like Sam Perkins in a way. In the city we saw him as a guy with Pippen type potential....Also had Elie as one of the prototypical 3 and D guys. Maxwell wasn't a great shooter but could get hot and have a big game from out there from time to time. Kenny was maybe the best shooter on the team and Cassell wasn't much of a shooter from 3 but his midrange was a good change of pace from Kenny's game and he had balls of steel as a rookie. Dream just carried the load down low and the guys supported him and some games it was the other way around. That team was a thrill ride for those 2 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VtrIz4ROC0

[Rico2016]

He had a 29.6 usage in the 1st round of the '93 series. Talk about cherry picking. When they played the Sonics, they double teamed Hakeem anytime he got the ball which lowered his usage. If you simply watched the games instead of relying on these stats you would know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E&t=

He doesnt watch games. Which is odd because he is bald and 50.

[post]

hakeem could create his own offense better than barkley. hakeem was a defensive anchor, barkley wasn't. phoenix had a borderline hall of famer in kevin johnson. hakeem didn't. despite barkley winning mvp in 93 i'd say hakeem was better, not necessarily better than jordan, but he had the potential to match jordan in a playoff series and barkley didn't

hakeem gave jordan a lot of credit and jordan gave hakeem a lot of credit

that doesn't mean either one wouldn't have tried their hardest to win if they played against each other in the finals

hakeem's 88 playoff stats are not empty just like jordan's 86 playoff stats aren't empty

was wilt empty when he averaged 45 ppg and his team failed to make the playoffs in 63? no

another thought:

hakeem didn't start playing basketball until age 17

hard to say how much of whatever gap there was between him and jordan could be attributed to that

[GimmeThat]

No warning - before 1994, no one was saying "hakeem is #2 behind MJ".. it naturally revealed itself after the top dog was gone.

But how did that transition/realization take place?

It's almost like his teammates and others in the league started looking around as the season wore on, and it eventually dawned on everyone - "with no Michael around, that tall Nigerian man looks like the best player".. once this realization happened, Hakeem started to assume the role - he started playing at a level we'd never seen before - a confidence - that we'd never seen... It's almost like a lion that realizes he's now king.

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w

like when Magic Johnson ousted Paul Westhead?

[Roundball_Rock]

specially about his faith, I can't remember for certain but I believe he became Muslim before the championship years. But young Olajuwon had stories in the streets about him being a wild one off the court in addition to a hot head on the court. His temperament was much different once he became a religious man.

He was always a Muslim but your point is correct: he became devout in the early 90's, got his act together and proceeded to dominate the next few seasons.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs:


If MJ never retired, David Robinson would still be looked as better than Hakeem, just like before 1994 - without the "king of the hill" effect, Hakeem would still be using 3-10 less possessions and losing his ass like before 94'

[jayfan]

No warning - before 1994, no one was saying "hakeem is #2 behind MJ".. it naturally revealed itself after the top dog was gone.

But how did that transition/realization take place?

It's almost like his teammates and others in the league started looking around as the season wore on, and it eventually dawned on everyone - "with no Michael around, that tall Nigerian man looks like the best player".. once this realization happened, Hakeem started to assume the role - he started playing at a level we'd never seen before - a confidence - that we'd never seen... It's almost like a lion that realizes he's now king.

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w
As you are already well aware, MJ had nothing to do with it. It was all coaching. Rudy became head coach in '93 and completely restructured the team scheme, making Hakeem the 4-out-1-in focal point. Probably more dramatic than the transition from Collins to Jackson. Anyway, the timing with MJ's departure was pure coincidence.

[GimmeThat]

.
Thread Cliffs:


If MJ never retired, David Robinson would still be looked as better than Hakeem, just like before 1994 - without the "king of the hill" effect, Hakeem would still be using 3-10 less possessions and losing his ass like before 94'

just curious, do you have a genuine distaste towards your own father, because you also find it disgusting that women older than you would accept money for sex. this whole idea stemmed from the memories you have where before money was an issue, you were always able to consistently duel out your peer.

I'm wondering, because, as a child, I kept on trying to hustle my own peer, and as a result of that, it became normal for me to try and convince myself that maybe I'm the unsung heroes.

[Uncle Drew]

.
Thread Cliffs:


If MJ never retired, David Robinson would still be looked as better than Hakeem, just like before 1994 - without the "king of the hill" effect, Hakeem would still be using 3-10 less possessions and losing his ass like before 94'

Why did a certain someone duck him?

[Kblaze8855]

Don Chaney asked Hakeem to share the ball more and Rudy T changed that to score as much as possible to force double teams so you can kick it out to shooters. They were one of the first teams to change to that. They shot more threes than anyone for a few years in the mid 90s including both of their title years. It was pretty well covered at the time.

[Kblaze8855]

He has also gained respect for the offensive abilities of his teammates and no longer forces up low-percentage shots.

Said Chaney: "Hakeem is a completely different player from a year ago. It's hard for a guy who plays instinctively like he does to change, but he has. He's passing the ball around, looking for the open man and doing all the little things he has to do for us to win."

Olajuwon has been encouraged by the maturing of the Rockets' quick backcourt duo of Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith and the continued development of strong forward Otis Thorpe.


"We're all sharing responsibility now. It is not one man, but 12 who have confidence in their games," he told the Houston Chronicle.

Don had him for years encouraging him to pass the ball and not always try to take over. Rudy got there and:



When a young coach gets a job, he must quickly develop a philosophy on how you’re going to play a style of play. I believe that philosophy should be based on the players you have it. The offense should be tailor-made to those players’ skills.


We had the great Hakeem Olajuwon, who was a great post-up player, and we know that other teams would have to double team. So we went out and got the best outside shooters we could get. When they double teamed, Hakeem passed the ball out, we moved it around the 3-point line, and let ’em go. And it was a big part of our offense.



Rudy set out to isolate Hakeem as much as possible to force doubles and get them open 3s. They still played team ball but Hakeem was the key to everyone outside getting open so it started with him more than it did when they were trying to develop young guys by including them more in the offensive game plan.

Before Rudy the Rockets talked about how Hakeem was leading with his defense and starting breaks like Russell used to do. Not shocking considering Don Chaney was a defensive minded Celtic who played with Russell. He and Rudy just asked Hakeem to do different things. He averaged 5 blocks a game while leading the league in rebounds. Under Don I think he blocked the most shots per game ever....other than Manute Bol and Mark Eaton.



His game changed with Rudy and once Rudy started playing Horry at the 4 so Hakeem had 4 shooters around him it was over. Make them double Hakeem....get it to a shooter.

Don was way more old school.

[RogueBorg]

Isn't it weird how MJ suddenly revealed himself and rose to top when Bird and Magic retired

About as weird as LeBron going underground in '09 to not have to face Kobe.

See how that works?

[3ball]

As you are already well aware, MJ had nothing to do with it. It was all coaching. Rudy became head coach in '93 and completely restructured the team scheme, making Hakeem the 4-out-1-in focal point. Probably more dramatic than the transition from Collins to Jackson. Anyway, the timing with MJ's departure was pure coincidence.

Except Hakeem used his normal number of possessions in the 93' Playoffs (including the 7-game loss to the Sonics) - he didn't jump to another level of possession usage until the 94' and 95' Playoffs:

1993 Playoffs... 27.8 usage
1994 Playoffs... 31.4 usage
1995 Playoffs... 35.9 usage


^^^ So he used an extra 3-10 possessions per game in the 94/95 Playoffs = victory

The only other time he's been over 30% usage was a 1st Round mismatch in 88' (empty-stat-padding mismatch loss)

So again, he only went to another level when he realized he was king of the hill - the untouchable lion that he once said MJ was (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif).. that must've increased his confidence, hence the usage increase

[LostCause]

You guys have to stop these ridiculous narratives

MJ didn’t retire because he saw the future and wanted to duck Hakeem

Hakeem didn’t get inspired and suddenly play better than ever before because MJ retired

What’s to even gain from discussing shit like that?

[Kblaze8855]

You guys have to stop these ridiculous narratives

MJ didn’t retire because he saw the future and wanted to duck Hakeem

Hakeem didn’t get inspired and suddenly play better than ever before because MJ retired

What’s to even gain from discussing shit like that?


It's mostly people who have stayed on one subject so long they realize they actually have nothing to say....but their obsessions won't let them change the subject. Then you get some off the wall "What the **** is he talking about...." shit like this.

[3ball]

You guys have to stop these ridiculous narratives

Hakeem didn’t get inspired and suddenly play better than ever before because MJ retired




You concede that Hakeem played better than ever before in 94/95, but offer no explanation for why

New coaching in 93' did nothing because it wasn't until 94' that he went to another level of controlling the game - his usage and other stats show this, along with the winning and the eye test/obvious higher domination (using the dream shake more often and making it famous)

There's a reason it was a shock when Hakeem destroyed Robinson in 95' - its because Robinson was considered better... So Hakeem wanted to show that he was the boss, not Robinson - but he wouldn't have that mentality vs jordan because hakeem knew that mj was boss



You guys have to stop these ridiculous narratives

MJ didn’t retire because he saw the future and wanted to duck Hakeem




^^^ that's obviously a bogus excuse, whereas the "king of the hill" effect is a real psychological advantage

There's a reason it was a shock when Hakeem destroyed Robinson in 95' - its because Robinson was considered better... So Hakeem wanted to show that he was the boss, not Robinson - but he wouldn't have that mentality vs jordan because hakeem knew that mj was boss

[light]

MJ didn’t retire because he saw the future and wanted to duck Hakeem

Actually... Jordan said in his 1992 Playboy interview that he would do that:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-Hakeem-Duckea64e155726a9130.png

[Akeem34TheDream]

If 3ball didn't spam his comments, he would be the best troll on this forum. He often has original takes. They might be ridiculous but he constructs them well enough that he looks like he actually believes in them. He is good at what he does. He just has a tendency to spam.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes he does. He did the rare double copy/paste in the same posts in that last one.

[LostCause]

Actually... Jordan said in his 1992 Playboy interview that he would do that:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-Hakeem-Duckea64e155726a9130.png

If he stayed retired then sure you could make the argument he did that

But given that he returned to a weaker Bulls team the year after Hakeem won MVP/FMVP/DPOY and the championship that argument just sounds pretty stupid

[scuzzy]

Actually... Jordan said in his 1992 Playboy interview that he would do that:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-Hakeem-Duckea64e155726a9130.png
ouch :lol


everyone knows Jordan ducked Hakeem

[3ball]

If 3ball didn't spam his comments, he would be the best troll on this forum. He often has original takes. They might be ridiculous but he constructs them well enough that he looks like he actually believes in them. He is good at what he does. He just has a tendency to spam.

I'm convinced 100% that hakeem went to another level in part because he realized that he was the best.. it's a real psychological advantage - any competitor knows there's an extra confidence and ability to play YOUR GAME when you know you're the best.

Hence Hakeem dream-shaking everyone into oblivion like we'd never seen before..

Seriously, you think it's coincidence that Hakeem showed everyone he was #2 behind MJ only when MJ retired?.. that's crazy timing.. but everything is coincidence for you guys... Aka Hakeem in 94' or mj's 6 rings... It's all coincidence, whereas i prefer to figure out why shit happened.. aka Hakeem was emboldened and mj's off-ball game allowed goat brand

[Akeem34TheDream]

I almost was going to write a reply to that. Almost. Like I said, you are good. I almost bit. Hats off to you, mister.

[light]

If he stayed retired then sure you could make the argument he did that

But given that he returned to a weaker Bulls team the year after Hakeem won MVP/FMVP/DPOY and the championship that argument just sounds pretty stupid

It's not an argument.

That's what Jordan said.

Hakeem finished ahead of him in MVP voting for the first time and he retired immediately after.

Maybe it's all a total coincidence but, hey, he told us that he thought about doing it so... I don't know what else to say.

He was allowed to change his mind too. None of his decisions had to be permanent. Maybe he didn't want to deal with it in 1993/94 and then later though, "hmm, maybe I'll give it another shot." That's fine.

[LostCause]

It's not an argument.

That's what Jordan said.

Hakeem finished ahead of him in MVP voting for the first time and he retired immediately after.

Maybe it's all a total coincidence but, hey, he told us that he thought about doing it so... I don't know what else to say.

He was allowed to change his mind too. None of his decisions had to be permanent. Maybe he didn't want to deal with it in 1993/94 and then later though, "hmm, maybe I'll give it another shot." That's fine.

Which sounds pretty stupid but :confusedshrug:

Fits right in with this thread though

[NBAGOAT]

This is as ridiculous as the idea of giving “110%”. The idea that you can kick it
up a gear without a change in circumstance or improving really means you weren’t trying your hardest before. A bit ridiculous of a claim to make about pre 94 Hakeem but I’ll admit an original opinion lol.

Everyone has different career arcs for whatever reason. Why did Karl Malone peak in 97-98? Can’t say it’s Jordan he was still dominating; not coaching Sloan had coached him for ten years in the same system etc

[tpols]

This is as ridiculous as the idea of giving “110%”. The idea that you can kick it
up a gear without a change in circumstance or improving really means you weren’t trying your hardest before. A bit ridiculous of a claim to make about pre 94 Hakeem but I’ll admit an original opinion lol.

Everyone has different career arcs for whatever reason. Why did Karl Malone peak in 97-98? Can’t say it’s Jordan he was still dominating; not coaching Sloan had coached him for ten years in the same system etc

Some of the quotes make sense though.

Hakeem even used analogy native to his homeland and observation of nature.

MJ was the big dog on the block to be beat. Hakeem probably did feel a sudden rush when he realized there was no lion king in front of him anymore.

It's like Scar when mufasa died.

[NBAGOAT]

Some of the quotes make sense though.

Hakeem even used analogy native to his homeland and observation of nature.

MJ was the big dog on the block to be beat. Hakeem probably did feel a sudden rush when he realized there was no lion king in front of him anymore.

yes psychology plays a part. 3ball is absolutely overselling it as usual however considering hakeem was awesome in 93. The sonics defensive strategy has infinitely more to do with hakeem's usage than mj being in the league or not lol.

[3ball]

yes psychology plays a part. 3ball is absolutely overselling it as usual however considering hakeem was awesome in 93. The sonics defensive strategy has infinitely more to do with hakeem's usage than mj being in the league or not lol.

Hakeem was getting doubled more in 94' and especially 95'... And he was visibly doing his dream shake with a swagger and sauciness that we'd never seen from anybody... Ever... Even Mike... So subconsciously, something was holding Hakeem back from being his true self and letting it all hang out before 94'.. I guess that shit is easier to do when you know ain't nobody f**k*** with you

[SATAN]

Actually... Jordan said in his 1992 Playboy interview that he would do that:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-Hakeem-Duckea64e155726a9130.png

Killer instinct :lol

[NBAGOAT]

Hakeem was getting doubled more in 94' and especially 95'... And he was visibly doing his dream shake with a swagger and sauciness that we'd never seen from anybody... Ever... Even Mike... So subconsciously, something was holding Hakeem back from being his true self and letting it all hang out before 94'.. I guess that shit is easier to do when you know ain't nobody f**k*** with you

do you any supporting evidence for the getting doubled claim any? 1987 provided strong evidence the sonics doubled him heavily you offered literally nothing besides repeating the claim. especially in 95 when the spurs were notorious for not having someone help out robinson(rodman didnt want to so he could grab rebounds). one reason hakeem dominated so much. Also just lol at "swagger" coming from someone who supposedly knows math.

as someone who got more into poker recently, i can see what people think is an increase in confidence/swagger or a hot streak is more often just being on the lucky side of variance and confidence is a huge double edged sword. Overconfidence leads to bad plays too like taking shots over double teams, going for a risky steal etc. Basketball is not that different from poker in that regard though it requires athleticism, skill matters but luck is a huge factor in success. I do believe you can play a lot worse for psychological reasons but the reverse is really overstated. Hakeem developing his post moves during the offseason also has a far bigger impact on him being better than whatever pseudo-psychology bs you're coming up with.

[Nowitness]

Hakeem just lucked out for 2 years. Had Robinson or Gary Payton been drafted earlier than they were they'd have won tiles with the void MJ left.

Laugh when people act like he is a consensus top 10 player, the dude got bounced 5 times in the first round, and had one of the greatest secondary teammates to ever win a title (Drexler).

Awful human being as well until his conversion to Islam.

[Phoenix]

Hakeem just lucked out for 2 years. Had Robinson or Gary Payton been drafted earlier than they were they'd have won tiles with the void MJ left.

Laugh when people act like he is a consensus top 10 player, the dude got bounced 5 times in the first round, and had one of the greatest secondary teammates to ever win a title (Drexler).

Awful human being as well until his conversion to Islam.

He's not really a consensus. There are lists with him outside the top 10. He is 12th on the latest ESPN list. There's pretty much a consensus top 8 in most lists I see nowadays, or at least the most common names in that range: MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, and it seems like people waver on Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem. Shaq was also 10th in this same ESPN list which is way too low, but whatever.

Drexler was a solid number 2 in 95 but saying he was one of the greatest secondary teammates is over selling that point. And the 94 title was basically Hakeem and a cast of solid role players. He's easily one of the most dominant two way players peakwise in spite of his mid career playoff woes.

[RogueBorg]

He's not really a consensus. There are lists with him outside the top 10. He is 12th on the latest ESPN list. There's pretty much a consensus top 8 in most lists I see nowadays, or at least the most common names in that range: MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, and it seems like people waver on Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem. Shaq was also 10th in this same ESPN list which is way too low, but whatever.

Drexler was a solid number 2 in 95 but saying he was one of the greatest secondary teammates is over selling that point. And the 94 title was basically Hakeem and a cast of solid role players. He's easily one of the most dominant two way players peakwise in spite of his mid career playoff woes.

Phi Slamma Jamman Clyde the Glide

https://youtu.be/OZ13fobOmuM

[999Guy]

If he stayed retired then sure you could make the argument he did that

But given that he returned to a weaker Bulls team the year after Hakeem won MVP/FMVP/DPOY and the championship that argument just sounds pretty stupid
And he lost. He didn’t even get to get waxed by Hakeem. Shaq and Horace(A huge, huge loss the following year) knocked him out.

Jordan’s time to get properly handled was in 1993 but Seattle’s press scheme and luck was just too much.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hakeem just lucked out for 2 years. Had Robinson or Gary Payton been drafted earlier than they were they'd have won tiles with the void MJ left.

Those guys had perfect opportunities. Robinson was on the #1 seed and MVP in 95', on a 56 win team in 94' and 2nd in MVP. Payton was on the #1 seed in 94' and a 57 win team in 95'. Neither got it done.


had one of the greatest secondary teammates to ever win a title (Drexler).

The second time but he had one of the worst the first time (Thorpe).


Killer instinct

"When I get challenged, I am going to take my toys home." :lol

[3ball]

do you any supporting evidence for the getting doubled claim any? 1987 provided strong evidence the sonics doubled him heavily you offered literally nothing besides repeating the claim. especially in 95 when the spurs were notorious for not having someone help out robinson(rodman didnt want to so he could grab rebounds). one reason hakeem dominated so much. Also just lol at "swagger" coming from someone who supposedly knows math.

as someone who got more into poker recently, i can see what people think is an increase in confidence/swagger or a hot streak is more often just being on the lucky side of variance and confidence is a huge double edged sword. Overconfidence leads to bad plays too like taking shots over double teams, going for a risky steal etc. Basketball is not that different from poker in that regard though it requires athleticism, skill matters but luck is a huge factor in success. I do believe you can play a lot worse for psychological reasons but the reverse is really overstated. Hakeem developing his post moves during the offseason also has a far bigger impact on him being better than whatever pseudo-psychology bs you're coming up with.

Your double-team excuse accounts for 1 series of Hakeem's lower usage, but that doesn't explain lower usage for his entire career and then a clear uptick in 94/95 - that's the point being made.. Specifically, he went an entire career without 30% usage except a 1st Round padding blowout, and never won with 30% usage - but then suddenly he had 30% usage all the time and won many series in 94' and 95' - that's a clear uptick in his burden and dominance..

there isn't any way to refute this historical record - so accept that he started using an extra 3-10 possessions in 94/95, including a saucier dreamshake than we'd ever seen before.. he was obviously feeling his oats with big bro gone.

And the Rockets' entire strategy was to hit threes off of Hakeem doubles - they perfected this strategy and started winning in 94' with it - but 95' was when teams had no idea what to do because the Rockets' shooting had developed a reputation.

Finally, I understand your poker analogy.. But basketball involves more physical motions, which humans get in a rhythm of doing - repeated accuracy of physical motions facilitates a mental confidence, so it's not the same as luck making you confident in poker

[Rico2016]

Actually... Jordan said in his 1992 Playboy interview that he would do that:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-Hakeem-Duckea64e155726a9130.png

Took his 2 year vacation to freshen up. Imagine if LeBron did it in 2014 and 2015.

[3ball]

Continued...


"But on top of being physically gifted, Michael Jordan is smart. He won’t settle for an open jumper. Most players will, they like taking open shots. But Michael Jordan is a very intelligent player and he wants better than I’m giving him, so he dribbles toward me. It’s unusual for a guard to dribble toward a big man if he wants to shoot a jumper. But this is Michael Jordan. If I’m going to let him shoot I back off some more, and some more, until he’s even closer to the basket and has an even easier shot. I can’t keep giving ground, and with every step backward I’m more off balance. Sooner or later I’ll have to come to him, at which point he can either shoot before I get there or drive around me. It’s a very subtle, very impressive set of decisions he makes."

"When he came into the league Michael Jordan was criticized for being selfish. People used to complain all the time that he was shooting too much, twenty-eight times a game, and not getting his teammates involved. I never bought into that premise. Michael Jordan is a team player, he plays to win. When he takes his shot it’s because he thinks he can score. And he can! He was just taking the first responsibility of the offense-creating opportunities. When he gets the ball he can pass of score or finish the play. Early in his career he was doing the work of two or three people, first in bringing the ball downcourt, then either shooting or passing; he was controlling the tempo of the game. And he still does. Inside, outside, he plays guard, he plays forward, he plays center-and he always does damage. I’ve seen big men not even try to stop him, they get out of his way; he explodes on them and they don’t want to get dunked on."

Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other. When you put together your game plan you figure that unless someone has an outstanding night, this is a stand-off, the game will be won by the other teammates. But Michael Jordan isn’t neutralized. He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars


Hakeem crept up on everyone and only revealed himself as the clear-cut #2 player of the decade after MJ was gone

His usage reached a next dimension in the playoffs, which proves that he went to a level previously unseen in him and was emboldened by MJ's absence

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w

[AussieSteve]

2 things happened that allowed hakeem to take the rockets to the finals...

1. Barkley was injured in 94
2. Clyde moved to the rockets in 95

Otherwise hakeem was no better in 94 than he was in 93

94 was the start of the decline of the NBA, which peaked in 97-99, before it's resurgence in the early 00s

[mehyaM24]

this thread proves my point. again, how did mj prevent houston from making the finals? in 95, jordan came back and lost to the magic - who houston swept.

[3ball]

this thread proves my point. again, how did mj prevent the rockets from making the finals? in 95, jordan came back and lost the the magic - who houston swept.


Rockets weren't for real in 94' because they were almost beaten by Ewing's 18 on 35%, who was almost beaten by pippen's 21 on 40%.

So Jordan's 30 ppg beats everyone that year in pippen's place with the deepest and most prime cast he's ever had..

And obviously, MJ/Pippen together would dominate in 94' and be overwhelming favorites heading into 95'.. so it would be completely different.

[AussieSteve]

If the suns were healthy they win at least one out of 94 and 95

[3ball]

If the suns were healthy they win at least one out of 94 and 95


They probably would've won in 93' if KJ and Ceballos was healthy because I don't think Jordan could've averaged the 50 required to win in that scenario.

his 41 basically drew a stalemate because both the Bulls/Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0.ortg for the series.. the Suns ' 3rd and 4th options (Majerle/Dumas) destroyed Grant, while Pippen shot 45% true shooting and stunk it up with hobbled KJ..

In the 93' Playoffs, Pippen had a 2.0 BPM with lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade - he was carried in the 1st Round against Dominique/Willis and again in the Finals.. So the Bulls were tired from the 3-peat and the suns should've won

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jaylen Brown is MJ with 3 point range.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jaylen Brown is MJ with 3 point range.
Even he's done better than 1-9 in the first round

[chocolatethunder]

No warning - before 1994, no one was saying "hakeem is #2 behind MJ".. it naturally revealed itself after the top dog was gone.

But how did that transition/realization take place?

It's almost like his teammates and others in the league started looking around as the season wore on, and it eventually dawned on everyone - "with no Michael around, that tall Nigerian man looks like the best player".. once this realization happened, Hakeem started to assume the role - he started playing at a level we'd never seen before - a confidence - that we'd never seen... It's almost like a lion that realizes he's now king.

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w
Idk how old you are or if you were around when this happened or not. I was in my 20s. Not sure what SAS is talking about but Hakeems rise to the top happened when Rudy T became the coach and decided to run the offense through Hakeem. This was not happening before Rudy got there. Actually the first year Rudy was there was a nightmare and Hakeem was pissed etc. The regrouped and Rudy had the idea of running everything through Hakeem and that’s when Hakeem became championship Hakeem. This SAS stuff is total garbage

[Gohan]

Jaylen Brown is MJ with 3 point range.

:oldlol:

[SATAN]

Idk how old you are or if you were around when this happened or not. I was in my 20s. Not sure what SAS is talking about but Hakeems rise to the top happened when Rudy T became the coach and decided to run the offense through Hakeem. This was not happening before Rudy got there. Actually the first year Rudy was there was a nightmare and Hakeem was pissed etc. The regrouped and Rudy had the idea of running everything through Hakeem and that’s when Hakeem became championship Hakeem. This SAS stuff is total garbage

100%.

CasualBall destroyed by facts and logic again.

[sdot_thadon]

Idk how old you are or if you were around when this happened or not. I was in my 20s. Not sure what SAS is talking about but Hakeems rise to the top happened when Rudy T became the coach and decided to run the offense through Hakeem. This was not happening before Rudy got there. Actually the first year Rudy was there was a nightmare and Hakeem was pissed etc. The regrouped and Rudy had the idea of running everything through Hakeem and that’s when Hakeem became championship Hakeem. This SAS stuff is total garbage

:applause:
Exactly this, there was actually turmoil in the organization the few years prior with Hakeem. He wanted to be traded, but people were who weren't there have no clue that his title seasons weren't even his best....

[FKAri]

Isn't it weird how MJ suddenly retired when Hakeem revealed himself?

[Hey Yo]

:applause:
Exactly this, there was actually turmoil in the organization the few years prior with Hakeem. He wanted to be traded, but people were who weren't there have no clue that his title seasons weren't even his best....

A combination of him wanting to renegotiate his contract (which was rejected), to being suspended by the team for allegedly faking an injury (due to no contract extension) and 4 straight first round exits is enough for a superstar to ask for a trade.

[light]

It wasn't sudden.

Olajuwan had already been in the Finals in 1985-86 where he averaged 25 points, 12 rebounds, 3 blocks and 3 steals.

Olajuwan was already an All-NBA player by that time (1 of only 10 players), the only Houston Rocket on an All-NBA or All-Defensive team, and he finished 4th in MVP voting between Magic and Kareem.

Elite.

But it was harder to win in 1986 having to go through both the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers AND the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics - two absolute powerhouses of talent.

Consider what Olajuwon was up against in 1986:

1986 Rockets Honors and Awards:


Olajuwon - 2nd All-NBA

1986 Lakers Honors and Awards:


Magic - 1st All-NBA
Kareem - 1st All-NBA
Cooper - 2nd All-Defensive

1986 Celtics Honors and Awards:


Bird - 1st All-NBA, MVP
McHale - 1st All-Defensive
Johnson - 2nd All-Defensive
Walton - Sixth Man of the Year

It was incredible that Olajuwon obliterated the Lakers and carried the Rockets to the Finals in 1986 and not surprising that he lost to the loaded Celtics, but he was firmly on the map by the late 80's.

So Olajuwon winning was considered only a matter of time and he didn’t come out of nowhere in 1994 - the issue was that he was not getting the kind of help that other stars (like MJ) were getting, for example:

1993 Bulls Awards and Honors:

Jordan - 1st All-NBA, 1st All-Defensive
Pippen - 3rd All-NBA, 1st All-Defensive
Grant - 2nd All-Defensive

1993 Rockets Awards and Honors:

Olajuwan - 1st All-NBA, 1st All-Defensive, DPOY

[eliteballer]

Michael Jordan: I would pick Hakeem Olajuwon before anyone in NBA History

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvNz2TdAPM&feature=emb_title

4 minutes 53 seconds.

[light]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvNz2TdAPM&feature=emb_title

4 minutes 53 seconds.

If Hakeem had Jackson, Pippen, Grant/Rodman & Krause he would be the #2 GOAT behind LeBron and not MJ.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Bulls-help-vs-Rockets.gif

Before you get too excited about Hakeem's carry job in the 90's remember that he was also playing in the watered down expansion era from 1988 to 2004.

Like MJ, Hakeem also could not carry a team to a championship against modern competition like LeBron James has.

Yes, Hakeem was very versatile, and a better all-around player than Jordan, but he was still not good enough to carry a team against elite competition like LeBron 1-through-5 James.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Warriors-Cavs-2016.gif

[HoopsNY]

If Hakeem had Jackson, Pippen, Grant/Rodman & Krause he would be the #2 GOAT behind LeBron and not MJ.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Bulls-help-vs-Rockets.gif

Before you get too excited about Hakeem's carry job in the 90's remember that he was also playing in the watered down expansion era from 1988 to 2004.

Like MJ, Hakeem also could not carry a team to a championship against modern competition like LeBron James has.

Yes, Hakeem was very versatile, and a better all-around player than Jordan, but he was still not good enough to carry a team against elite competition like LeBron 1-through-5 James.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Warriors-Cavs-2016.gif

First we heard that LeBron carried all of his teams to the finals. Now it's LeBron "carried" his teams to the championships. Apparently, there was no Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, or AD

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Whose Hakeem "Olajuwan"? :lol

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron not even better than Kobe. Considering Lebron never managed to win a gold medal without Kobe I'm going to say he is a coward for leaving an organization that drafted him and him never winning with them until he went back to form a superteam.

[Axe]

Whose Hakeem "Olajuwan"? :lol
It seems lord voldemort has been an expert at doing a lot of copypasta stuff most of the time yet a mere spelling of a hof's name he couldn't even do it right.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron not even better than Kobe. Considering Lebron never managed to win a gold medal without Kobe I'm going to say he is a coward for leaving an organization that drafted him and him never winning with them until he went back to form a superteam.
Every post this guy makes is about LeBron, even in threads that have literally nothing to do with him :lol

[3ba11]

Aside from a 1st Round series in 1988, Hakeem's playoff usage magically increased above 30 for the first time in his playoff career in 94' and 95' - it reached an elite level of 36% in 95', before MJ came back and reduced it to 26% in 96'.. The alpha lion was back, so Hakeem went back into the shadows

[1987_Lakers]

Aside from a 1st Round series in 1988, Hakeem's playoff usage magically increased above 30 for the first time in his playoff career in 94' and 95' - it reached an elite level of 36% in 95', before MJ came back and reduced it to 26% in 96'.. The alpha lion was back, so Hakeem went back into the shadows

Weren't the Bulls like 1-5 against Houston from '91-'93?

[3ba11]

Weren't the Bulls like 1-5 against Houston from '91-'93?


Regular season..

Jordan's low seed was 0-6 against the near-super-team Cavs in 89' (#1 SRS team)

[And1AllDay]

If Hakeem had Jackson, Pippen, Grant/Rodman & Krause he would be the #2 GOAT behind LeBron and not MJ.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Bulls-help-vs-Rockets.gif

Before you get too excited about Hakeem's carry job in the 90's remember that he was also playing in the watered down expansion era from 1988 to 2004.

Like MJ, Hakeem also could not carry a team to a championship against modern competition like LeBron James has.

Yes, Hakeem was very versatile, and a better all-around player than Jordan, but he was still not good enough to carry a team against elite competition like LeBron 1-through-5 James.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Warriors-Cavs-2016.gif

banngggg!

[3ba11]

banngggg!


Hakeem had Pippen at 3rd option (more stacked than any Bulls team) and didn't do shit

Hakeem had Drexler and Barkley but did nothing

He won in 94' and took his game to another level because the alpha lion was gone.. Once the alpha lion returned, Hakeem went back to being a nobody

[And1AllDay]

when mikey didnt have pippen he didnt do shit


mike only won in 91' and took his game to another level because the alpha lions were gone (bird, magic, isiah) .. Once the tru alpha lion returned in 2004 bran, mike went back to being a nobody

yep

[Smoke117]

Hakeem was literally second in MVP voting in 1993, so obviously someone considered him the second best player you goddamn idiot.

Yeah, I was gonna say, Hakeem was terrific in that 93 season and that was the beginning of that late peak he had. Had the highest bpm, vorp, per, and ws/48 of his career that season. He was clearly the 2nd best player in the league that season.

[Smoke117]

Hakeem had Pippen at 3rd option (more stacked than any Bulls team) and didn't do shit

Hakeem had Drexler and Barkley but did nothing

He won in 94' and took his game to another level because the alpha lion was gone.. Once the alpha lion returned, Hakeem went back to being a nobody

I love how 3ball never uses context or details. Just says Hakeem had so and so without acknowledging that Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen were 33+ and on the tail end of their careers. He then brings up 94, but if this was 94 and it was Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen they would obviously been a much better team. Same goes for Chuck and Drexler with this dumb ass acting like Chuck and Drexler are in their primes or something. Also, Hakeem took his game to another level in 93 while Jordan was still playing.

[3ba11]

Yeah, I was gonna say, Hakeem was terrific in that 93 season and that was the beginning of that late peak he had. Had the highest bpm, vorp, per, and ws/48 of his career that season. He was clearly the 2nd best player in the league that season.


his usage was low in the 93' Playoffs - he still didn't have the confidence to play his full game - only when MJ retired did his usage suddenly go through the roof and we saw the "dream shake" in full form like we'd never seen before - the eye test shows that his game exploded once he saw Jordan wasn't around..

It raises an interesting question - would lebron similarly "disappear" into the background like Hakeem if MJ was still around?.. in reality, people rarely debate who is #2, so it shouldn't be a surprise that no one really saw it coming with Hakeem

Stephen A. talks about this "king of the hill" effect:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsA3L3p49w