Nothing can justify this destruction of people’s lives

[Cleverness]

Great article/interview about the lockdowns. Warning: may provide some cognitive dissonance to pro-lockdown crowd, but criticism of it is welcome.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/22/nothing-can-justify-this-destruction-of-peoples-lives/


It is the first epidemic in history which is accompanied by another epidemic – the virus of the social networks. These new media have brainwashed entire populations. What you get is fear and anxiety, and an inability to look at real data. And therefore you have all the ingredients for monstrous hysteria.

It is what is known in science as positive feedback or a snowball effect. The government is afraid of its constituents. Therefore, it implements draconian measures. The constituents look at the draconian measures and become even more hysterical. They feed each other and the snowball becomes larger and larger until you reach irrational territory. This is nothing more than a flu epidemic if you care to look at the numbers and the data, but people who are in a state of anxiety are blind. If I were making the decisions, I would try to give people the real numbers. And I would never destroy my country.

https://i.postimg.cc/q79PnH0q/rsz-total-covid-deaths-per-million-1.png

Let's take a look at the data in a place that has been known to be "devastated" by COVID: Italy.


Their COVID deaths currently stand at 32,877 (with 99% dying with other illnesses (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says)).

Their 2017 seasonal flu deaths were 25,000. Yet nobody knows about it and nobody gave two shits about it?




And the "high" COVID death rate may be due to their mild flu season (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/italy-s-mild-flu-season-may-solve-mystery-of-coronavirus-deaths)

How could their COVID deaths be so much higher than other countries?

The last flu season, marked by unusually warm weather, killed fewer older Italians than average, according to a report by the Italian Ministry of Health.

Those with chronic diseases who were spared death from November through January would have been at greater risk when the new virus began spreading in February and March

[tpols]

people are very easily manipulated because most are unfortunately very "herd" driven.

All that matters is what the majority thinks... shame will be placed if not.

it's a damning element of human society.

[scuzzy]

people are very easily manipulated because most are unfortunately very "herd" driven.

All that matters is what the majority thinks... shame will be placed if not.

it's a damning element of human society.

eh there's a broad difference between a critical thinker and being woke (dumb)

you for example are the latter

[coin24]

eh there's a broad difference between a critical thinker and being woke (dumb)

you for example are the latter

And you are a sheep that believes everything on tv, probably because you never leave the basement and have no real world experiences

[scuzzy]

https://i.postimg.cc/jdmjNWc7/3xo2QBA.jpg

[iosman001]

people are very easily manipulated because most are unfortunately very "herd" driven.

All that matters is what the majority thinks. (https://www.krogerfeedback.nl) . (https://talktosonic.onl) . (https://talktowendys.vip) shame will be placed if not.

it's a damning element of human society.

thanks my issue has been fixed.

[Nanners]

In my state, more people have from suicide (192) than COVID (147) since the lockdowns began.

Out of the COVID deaths in my state, 94% of the dead have been people aged 60+ years old, and all but 2 of them had at least 1 pre-existing condition (those 2 people who didnt have pre-existing conditions were both 91 years old).

For comparison, the average age for suicides in my state is a little over 40 years old.

If the justification behind this lockdown was "saving lives", its becoming undeniable that the actual effects are the opposite of intended.

[ThatCoolKid]

You have no way of knowing what the number of COVID deaths and suicides would be without the lockdowns. That would be the true comparison (total deaths with lockdown) vs (total deaths without lockdown). You do not have these numbers - ergo your logic is not substantiated by the evidence you have provided.

@Nanners

[SATAN]

https://i.postimg.cc/jdmjNWc7/3xo2QBA.jpg

:lol

[Nanners]

You have no way of knowing what the number of COVID deaths and suicides would be without the lockdowns. That would be the true comparison (total deaths with lockdown) vs (total deaths without lockdown). You do not have these numbers - ergo your logic is not substantiated by the evidence you have provided.

@Nanners


7 states never locked down - Iowa (41 deaths), Arkansas (29), Utah (18), Nebraska (17), ND (8), SD (6), Wyo (0). Oregon is quite similar in size and population density to Iowa/Arkansas/Utah... but yeah no doubt we would be far worse off without the lockdowns, despite the fact that ~80% my states deaths have been in nursing homes and not one person under the age of 40 has died.

As far as the suicide rate goes, you can compare the numbers from march/april/may of this year with the numbers from past years, and you will clearly see that the rate is more than double what it usually is during this time of year.

[Cleverness]

In my state, more people have from suicide (192) than COVID (147) since the lockdowns began.

Out of the COVID deaths in my state, 94% of the dead have been people aged 60+ years old, and all but 2 of them had at least 1 pre-existing condition (those 2 people who didnt have pre-existing conditions were both 91 years old).

For comparison, the average age for suicides in my state is a little over 40 years old.

If the justification behind this lockdown was "saving lives", its becoming undeniable that the actual effects are the opposite of intended.

Looking at the data it starts to become undeniable

35,000,000 to 37,000,000 hospitalizations per year in the USA

Per CDC, 959,000 hospitalizations in 2017-2018 flu season hospitalizations. Source (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018/archive.htm#ref1)

High estimate for COVID hospitalizations is 190,000 so far. Since we know COVID mainly targets old/frail, you have to wonder how many of those would have been hospitalized this year anyway.

35,000,000 to 37,000,000 million hospitalizations per year. 959,000 from flu. 190,000 (high estimate) from COVID. Let that sink in.

With a fluctuation of 2 million hospitalizations per year, it's unfathomable how we have taken away liberty from 330,000,000 law-abiding citizens for several months without a timetable or clear objective.

[Nanners]

Looking at the data it starts to become undeniable

35,000,000 to 37,000,000 hospitalizations per year in the USA

CDC high estimate for a flu season is 960,000 hospitalizations (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov %2Fflu%2Fabout%2Fdisease%2Fus_flu-related_deaths.htm)

High estimate for COVID hospitalizations is 190,000 so far. Since we know COVID mainly targets old/frail, you have to wonder how many of those would have been hospitalized this year anyway.

35,000,000 to 37,000,000 million hospitalizations per year. 190,000 (high estimate) COVID hospitalizations this year. Let that sink in.

With a fluctuation of 2 million hospitalizations per year, it's unfathomable how we have taken away liberty from 330,000,000 law-abiding citizens for several months without a timetable or clear objective.

Good point about the number of covid victims that would have been hospitalized anyway. Nationwide, 42% of all COVID deaths have been in nursing homes, despite the fact that nursing homes are only home to 0.6% of the population. On average, the amount of time a person survives after being placed in a nursing home is ~5 months. Over 90% of all covid deaths in the US have at least 1 pre-existing illness, and ~50% have 2 or more existing illnesses... we have been destroying our economy in order to "save" the lives of people who are old and sick and about to die anyway.

Meanwhile, roughly 1.8m americans are diagnosed with cancer each year, and these diagnoses are made using the "elective" scans and tests that have been largely cancelled during the coronacircus. 1.8m over 12 months is 150k cancer diagnoses per month, so somewhere around ~300k cancers have likely gone undiagnosed because of this shutdown.

[Hawker]

7 states never locked down - Iowa (41 deaths), Arkansas (29), Utah (18), Nebraska (17), ND (8), SD (6), Wyo (0). Oregon is quite similar in size and population density to Iowa/Arkansas/Utah... but yeah no doubt we would be far worse off without the lockdowns, despite the fact that ~80% my states deaths have been in nursing homes and not one person under the age of 40 has died.

As far as the suicide rate goes, you can compare the numbers from march/april/may of this year with the numbers from past years, and you will clearly see that the rate is more than double what it usually is during this time of year.

Trump leaving this to the states ended up being a brilliant move. Federalism ftw.

[Cleverness]

Good point about the number of covid victims that would have been hospitalized anyway. Nationwide, 42% of all COVID deaths have been in nursing homes, despite the fact that nursing homes are only home to 0.6% of the population. On average, the amount of time a person survives after being placed in a nursing home is ~5 months. Over 90% of all covid deaths in the US have at least 1 pre-existing illness, and ~50% have 2 or more existing illnesses... we have been destroying our economy in order to "save" the lives of people who are old and sick and about to die anyway.

Meanwhile, roughly 1.8m americans are diagnosed with cancer each year, and these diagnoses are made using the "elective" scans and tests that have been largely cancelled during the coronacircus. 1.8m over 12 months is 150k cancer diagnoses per month, so somewhere around ~300k cancers have likely gone undiagnosed because of this shutdown.

Wow, 5 months to live? That's incredible.

story: Restricting nursing homes kept important family ties from elderly, not COVID-19 (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2020/05/27/restricting-nursing-homes-kept-key-family-ties-elderly-not-covid-19-column/5262320002/)

We're literally restricting people from seeing their loved ones before they pass.

[ThatCoolKid]

7 states never locked down - Iowa (41 deaths), Arkansas (29), Utah (18), Nebraska (17), ND (8), SD (6), Wyo (0). Oregon is quite similar in size and population density to Iowa/Arkansas/Utah... but yeah no doubt we would be far worse off without the lockdowns, despite the fact that ~80% my states deaths have been in nursing homes and not one person under the age of 40 has died.

As far as the suicide rate goes, you can compare the numbers from march/april/may of this year with the numbers from past years, and you will clearly see that the rate is more than double what it usually is during this time of year.

Correlation is not causation. States that never locked down never had an influx of COVID burden to begin with. Your state has over 4000 cases. Why would you compare your state to Iowa? (protip: there is no reason to) If people shelter in place then ideally COVID would never reach the nursing homes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/us/coronavirus-distancing-deaths.html

If the United States had begun imposing social distancing measures one week earlier than it did in March, about 36,000 fewer people would have died in the coronavirus outbreak, according to new estimates from Columbia University disease modelers.

Exponential growth is a bitch.

[Cleverness]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/us/coronavirus-distancing-deaths.html

If the United States had begun imposing social distancing measures one week earlier than it did in March, about 36,000 fewer people would have died in the coronavirus outbreak, according to new estimates from Columbia University disease modelers.

Exponential growth is a bitch.

Lol. What a crock of shit that estimation is. The headline too. "Data shows"? No it doesn't. They just used a SEIR simulation and worked backwards, hard-coding it to obtain the results they wanted. It's statistical astrology.

It reminds me of the article in the WAPO (?) about how someone from a college estimated that CA locking down 1 day earlier than NY "saved" a ton a lives. But then it contradicts itself by talking about Florida, which shutdown weeks after NY... yet FL is doing way better than NY. Give me a break.

The virus has been confirmed to be in CA in Jan 2019, probably even Dec/Nov 2019.

CA locked down March 19th

During this critical 2-month time period, without masks or any shits given about the virus, California was the location for:

-Disneyland, which was open at full capacity with larger than normal crowds because of the new Star Wars attraction
-NFL, NBA and NHL games, the Grammy awards, concerts, and the Oscars.
-The San Francisco 49ers hosting the NFC Championship game on January 19 and tens of thousands of Super Bowl parties throughout the state when they made the Super Bowl on February 2.
-From January 26 through February 24, the city of Los Angeles was the location of very large and intimate gatherings for memorials to mourn the sudden death of NBA legend Kobe Bryant.
-The Los Angeles City Marathon, which was held on March 8.


If people shelter in place then ideally COVID would never reach the nursing homes.

Restricting nursing homes kept important family ties from elderly, not COVID-19
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2020/05/27/restricting-nursing-homes-kept-key-family-ties-elderly-not-covid-19-column/5262320002/)

Do nursing home residents never leave? Do employees in nursing homes never spread it to their residents? Do governors order/force COVID patients into nursing homes?

[ThatCoolKid]

Lol. What a crock of shit that estimation is. The headline too. "Data shows"? No it doesn't. They just used a SEIR simulation and worked backwards, hard-coding it to obtain the results they wanted. It's statistical astrology.

It reminds me of the article in the WAPO (?) about how someone from a college estimated that CA locking down 1 day earlier than NY "saved" a ton a lives. But then it contradicts itself by talking about Florida, which shutdown weeks after NY... yet FL is doing way better than NY. Give me a break.

The virus has been confirmed to be in CA in Jan 2019, probably even Dec/Nov 2019.

CA locked down March 19th

During this critical 2-month time period, without masks or any shits given about the virus, California was the location for:

-Disneyland, which was open at full capacity with larger than normal crowds because of the new Star Wars attraction
-NFL, NBA and NHL games, the Grammy awards, concerts, and the Oscars.
-The San Francisco 49ers hosting the NFC Championship game on January 19 and tens of thousands of Super Bowl parties throughout the state when they made the Super Bowl on February 2.
-From January 26 through February 24, the city of Los Angeles was the location of very large and intimate gatherings for memorials to mourn the sudden death of NBA legend Kobe Bryant.
-The Los Angeles City Marathon, which was held on March 8.



Restricting nursing homes kept important family ties from elderly, not COVID-19
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2020/05/27/restricting-nursing-homes-kept-key-family-ties-elderly-not-covid-19-column/5262320002/)

Do nursing home residents never leave? Do employees in nursing homes never spread it to their residents? Do governors order/force COVID patients into nursing homes?

You're criticism of the article is that they hard coded it to give the results they wanted. Okay buddy lol. Run your own simulation and publish it then we'll talk shop.

Idk what WaPo article you're talking about - but NY is much more of an international destination than Florida. No shit NY did worse than Florida despite locking down sooner. You're point on California not locking down soon enough is true. But in the early period of exponenetial growth it is hard to appreciate the situation you're in and what will come in the coming weeks.

That opinion piece on nursing homes is an interesting points. If COVID is already in the nursing home why not allow for some visitation. Obviously the employees were the ones who introduced it into the nursing home setting. With perfect social distancing they should have never been infected and then brought the virus into the nursing homes yes.