Player Comparisons by PIPM

[LostCause]

As usual, this comes with the disclaimer that no single advanced metric should be used as a "catch-all" to say Player A is better than Player B. Some are better than others, but PIPM is largely considered one of the better ones out there (Unlike things like PER and WS). I graphed each of the player comparisons on the front page here:

https://i.ibb.co/rpDWc82/rega.png

Or another view

https://i.ibb.co/T2nXd3F/regaa.png

As a bonus since this is a popular comparison, here's Barkley v Malone

https://i.ibb.co/vcjBkRc/bar.png

Here's a link to the tool so you guys can do your own:
https://jacobegoldstein.shinyapps.io/pipm_by_game/

[Stephonit]

No responses yet? All the squiggly lines must be giving the others a hard time.

As expected it shows Curry as having a tremendously high peak that makes comparisons to Michael Jordan plausible as much as that may shock some people.

I'd ask how PIPM was computed for earlier players like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. As I understand it raw plus minus upon which many plus minus indicators are based only go back to the 1997 season.

[NBAGOAT]

really impressed you graphed this but since you're doing year by year a line graph seems better. only thing that's obviously stands out is the general public still underrates curry. Also ik he isnt a big factor in all time lists but I like to see durant. Obviously more relevant than vince

[Stephonit]

Some current players of interest.

https://i.ibb.co/P1LWr6S/Modern-Multi-Year-PIPM.png (https://ibb.co/xzkg274)

[LostCause]

No responses yet? All the squiggly lines must be giving the others a hard time.

As expected it shows Curry as having a tremendously high peak that makes comparisons to Michael Jordan plausible as much as that may shock some people.

I'd ask how PIPM was computed for earlier players like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. As I understand it raw plus minus upon which many plus minus indicators are based only go back to the 1997 season.

The data goes back to 83-84. So it misses the best years of older players (and some not even included) and you're right about Curry. His 2016 season was immense

You can also see the effect Jordan's retirement had. That little 1/3 of a season he played was pretty bad compared to what came before and after it.


really impressed you graphed this but since you're doing year by year a line graph seems better. only thing that's obviously stands out is the general public still underrates curry. Also ik he isnt a big factor in all time lists but I like to see durant. Obviously more relevant than vince

True, Durant would be much better for a comparison. Just figured I'd plug in the VC/Kobe comparison since it was relevant with a thread. Anyway I haven't seen you around recently homie. Good to have you back (Or maybe I just haven't been reading threads you're in)

[NBAGOAT]

Some current players of interest.

https://i.ibb.co/P1LWr6S/Modern-Multi-Year-PIPM.png (https://ibb.co/xzkg274)

giannis looking very good. lower but similar career progression to lebron. curry definitely looks like 2nd most impactful of era. Nice to see pipm matches my opinion that the cp3 clipper years were underrated. durant's impact is a bit overrated by the public according to pipm at least.

[LostCause]

This is a bit off-topic and while Gamescore isnt regarded very well as far as advanced metrics (It's literally a dumbed down version of PER, according to the creator of both stats. It also doesn't account for possessions or minutes), since people here love it here are LeBron/Jordans gamescores ranked per season up to 2016. I want to add this is not my work, btw, but some folks may find it interesting


Top Regular Seasons by Game Score

1988 Jordan 28.8
1989 Jordan 28.6
1990 Jordan 27.6
1987 Jordan 27.4
1991 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.6
1993 Jordan 25.5
1992 Jordan 24.4
2013 LeBron 24.4
2009 LeBron 24.3


Top Postseasons by Game Score

1986 Jordan 30.6
2009 LeBron 29.9
1990 Jordan 29.0
1989 Jordan 27.8
1991 Jordan 27.4
1988 Jordan 27.2
1987 Jordan 26.9
1993 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.4
1992 Jordan 25.1

[NBAGOAT]

The data goes back to 83-84. So it misses the best years of older players (and some not even included) and you're right about Curry. His 2016 season was immense

You can also see the effect Jordan's retirement had. That little 1/3 of a season he played was pretty bad compared to what came before and after it.



True, Durant would be much better for a comparison. Just figured I'd plug in the VC/Kobe comparison since it was relevant with a thread. Anyway I haven't seen you around recently homie. Good to have you back (Or maybe I just haven't been reading threads you're in)

yea good seeing you're still active man. no basketball has just curbed my interest in talking about basketball but i should be here more if the season starts up again. been a bit busy and watching tv shows in free time like everyone else

[DoctorP]

no pip, no chip

[GimmeThat]

nice graphs on how Miss Universe were determined

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How does Kawhi Leonard in 2017/2019 playoffs look in this stat?

[NBAGOAT]

How does Kawhi Leonard in 2017/2019 playoffs look in this stat?

playoffs are sometimes too small a sample size for pipm to be very useful

[light]

PIPM is largely considered one of the better ones out there

By who?

Largely?

Where's the stats supporting that claim?

[LostCause]

By who?

Largely?

Where's the stats supporting that claim?

By the people who actually participate in crafting these metrics and make up the data analysis side of basketball. Some of whom go on to work for NBA teams (ie Jeremias Engelmann who created RPM now works for the Mavs) or other places. Most you can deduce on your own if you know how they're obtained but if you want someone else explaining it for you, this does it pretty good. It's a post by Elgee (Or Ben Taylor, the Backpicks guy)
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

Here's another one by Elgee going over the different stats to give you an idea of what they're about
https://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/interpreting-advanced-statistics-in-basketball/

Things like PER/GameScore/WS etc are mostly the same but outside of showing "box-score" value they don't tell you much else. Here's a good write up about those in particular and how they're basically the same (The first couple paragraphs):
https://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/the-underrated-in-2008-09/

Lastly. Here's the creator of BPM himself on the recent change they made to the formula on Basketball Reference this season (Which made BPM much better, btw)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

Here's the creator of PIPM:
https://www.bball-index.com/player-impact-plus-minus/

Hope that helps. Should be able to draw your own conclusions from the information provided and it's pretty clear why some measures (RAPM, PIPM, RPM, APM etc) are far better than others (PER, GameScore, WS etc)

[plowking]

Interesting stuff.

As a fan, I always said that year Curry went off was one of the most dominant seasons I've seen from a player. I don't think I've seen anyone as dominant outside of prime Shaq, and all the advanced metrics back that by the looks of things.

On top of that, I've always held the opinion LeBron at his best, was the best player to ever step on the court. Not only that, it seems as if he has found another type of role on the court where he can be as effective in his later years.

[Stephonit]

Interesting stuff.

As a fan, I always said that year Curry went off was one of the most dominant seasons I've seen from a player. I don't think I've seen anyone as dominant outside of prime Shaq, and all the advanced metrics back that by the looks of things.

On top of that, I've always held the opinion LeBron at his best, was the best player to ever step on the court. Not only that, it seems as if he has found another type of role on the court where he can be as effective in his later years.

You have to remember though that these advanced indicators can be tweaked to produce a desired outcome. The previous iteration of BPM for example used height as a prior. It might seem they did away with that in the new model but really they just shifted it to their penalty for point guards. The positional coefficient isn't linear either. They could bend that curve any way they want. This element of arbitrariness means biases of the creators can determine the calculation's outcome. They know how they want it to look at the end and torture the numbers until they conform.

[plowking]

You have to remember though that these advanced indicators can be tweaked to produce a desired outcome. The previous iteration of BPM for example used height as a prior. It might seem they did away with that in the new model but really they just shifted it to their penalty for point guards. The positional coefficient isn't linear either. They could bend that curve any way they want. This element of arbitrariness means biases of the creators can determine the calculation's outcome. They know how they want it to look at the end and torture the numbers until they conform.


Absolutely agree. Though there is a certain level of confluence that you see when you gather all of these advanced metrics, and certain seasons and players consistently stand out above all.

Sports is often as much about narratives as it is the actual reality of what happens. I'm also of the opinion that David Robinson was as good if not better than Hakeem for the majority of their careers, and that one series against each other, and ultimately Hakeem's brilliant 2 years stretch changed that narrative completely. Robinson often outplayed Hakeem prior, and put up the better numbers. But now, history remembers Hakeem as being some salyer of Robinson.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Absolutely agree. Though there is a certain level of confluence that you see when you gather all of these advanced metrics, and certain seasons and players consistently stand out above all.

Sports is often as much about narratives as it is the actual reality of what happens. I'm also of the opinion that David Robinson was as good if not better than Hakeem for the majority of their careers, and that one series against each other, and ultimately Hakeem's brilliant 2 years stretch changed that narrative completely. Robinson often outplayed Hakeem prior, and put up the better numbers. But now, history remembers Hakeem as being some salyer of Robinson.

While this is all true we have to take into account Hakeem’s very impressive back to back title run. David Robinson was great and very close to Hakeem but he doesn’t have anything like that on his resume. Hakeems head to head matchup after David won the MVP gets overrated at times but I think Hakeems two titles is what really separates the two in most people’s minds.

[Phoenix]

Absolutely agree. Though there is a certain level of confluence that you see when you gather all of these advanced metrics, and certain seasons and players consistently stand out above all.

Sports is often as much about narratives as it is the actual reality of what happens. I'm also of the opinion that David Robinson was as good if not better than Hakeem for the majority of their careers, and that one series against each other, and ultimately Hakeem's brilliant 2 years stretch changed that narrative completely. Robinson often outplayed Hakeem prior, and put up the better numbers. But now, history remembers Hakeem as being some salyer of Robinson.

Admiral has two things mostly going against his legacy. The aforementioned playoffs series and the fact that he basically took 2nd billing in order to win championships, while Hakeem was the undisputed best player on his title teams coupled with insane peak play and beating head to head his positional competition in the playoffs during that period. Very rarely ( that I can recall anyway) has a player had that opportunity to go against all his position rivals in playoff meetings in order the answer a 'who's the best' question to that degree.

You're right that outside of that series Robinson often more than held his ground and around 91 or 92 was probably considered better. Hakeem beating him 'when' it counts has created a narrative that there was always this gulf between the two when that simply wasnt the case. People have forgotten that Hakeem was considered a malcontent at one point. He went from missing the playoffs in 92 to a title, MVP and DPOY in 94. Talk about a quick turnaround. To be honest, I'm not even sure Hakeem outplays him that badly if Admiral hadn't won MVP. That provided the fuel and Robinson got caught in the crossfire and just wasnt obsessively competitive enough to go back at him. You'd think pride would kick in at some point, but nope.