Jordan vs Lebron All-NBA Playoff Opponent Comparison

[theman93]

Let's take a look at Jordan and Lebron's All-NBA playoff opponents.

Scoring System is Calculated as Follows:
1st Team All-NBA = 3 points | 2nd Team All-NBA = 2 points | 3rd Team All-NBA = 1 point


Jordan:
(1 series) 1985 - Cummings (2nd), Moncrief (2nd) = 4 points
(1 series) 1986 - Bird (1st) = 3 points
(1 series) 1987 - Bird (1st), McHale (1st) = 6 points
(2 series) 1988 - 0
(3 series) 1989 - Price (3rd) = 1 point
(3 series) 1990 - Barkley (1st), Dumars (3rd) = 4 points
(4 series) 1991 - Ewing (2nd), Barkley (1st), Dumars (3rd), Johnson (1st), Worthy (3rd) = 10 points
(4 series) 1992 - Ewing (2nd), Daughtery (3rd), Price (3rd), Drexler (1st) = 7 points
(4 series) 1993 - Wilkins (2nd), Price (1st), Ewing (2nd), Barkley (1st) = 10 points
(2 series) 1995 - Hardaway (1st), O'Neal (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 1996 - Hardaway (1st), O-Neal (3rd), Payton (2nd), Kemp (2nd) = 8 points
(4 series) 1997 - Hardaway (1st), Malone (1st), Stockton (2nd) = 8 points
(4 series) 1998 - Miller (3rd), Malone (1st) = 4 points
---------------------------------------------------
Total All-NBA Opponents - 32
Total Series Played - 37
Total Points - 70
Average All-NBA Opponents per Series (Total Series Played/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.15
Average All-NBA Opponent Strength (Total Points/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 2.19


Lebron:
(2 series) 2006 - Arenas (3rd), Billups (2nd), Wallace (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 2007 - Arenas (2nd), Billups (3rd), Duncan (1st) = 6 points
(2 series) 2008 - Garnett (1st), Pierce (3rd) = 4 points
(3 series) 2009 - Howard (1st) = 3 points
(2 series) 2010 - 0
(4 series) 2011 - Rose (1st), Nowitzki (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 2012 - Anthony (3rd), Rondo (3rd), Durant (1st), Westbrook (2nd) = 7 points
(4 series) 2013 - George (3rd), Duncan (1st), Parker (2nd) = 6 points
(4 series) 2014 - Jefferson (3rd), George (3rd), Parker (2nd) = 4 points
(4 series) 2015 - Gasol (2nd), Curry (1st), Thompson (3rd) = 6 points
(4 series) 2016 - Drummond (3rd), Lowry (3rd) Curry (1st), Green (2nd), Thompson (3rd) = 8 points
(4 series) 2017 - DeRozan (3rd), Thomas (2nd), Durant (2nd), Curry (2nd), Green (3rd) = 8 points
(4 series) 2018 - Oladipo (3rd), DeRozan (2nd), Durant (1st), Curry (3rd) = 7 points
--------------------------------------------------
Total All-NBA Opponents - 38
Total Series Played - 45
Total Points - 69
Average All-NBA Opponents per Series (Total Series Played/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.18
Average All-NBA Opponents Strength (Total Points/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.82


Conclusion: Lebron and Jordan faced a basically equal amount of All-NBA Opponents in a given playoff series (0.03 disparity in favor of Lebron), while Jordan faced much stronger All-NBA Opponents in a given playoff series (0.37 disparity in favor of Jordan). This is an impressive feat especially when you consider Jordan's playoff record (119-60 = 66.5 win%) in comparison to Lebron's playoff record (156-83 = 65.3 win%) along with their playoff series record in comparison to one another (Jordan: 30-7 = 81.0 win% | Lebron: 35-10 = 77.8 win%).

Against an essentially equal amount of All-NBA Opponents in a given a playoff series that were generally stronger, Jordan has a better playoff win% in individual games and a better win% in playoff series as a whole.

[theman93]

In their Finals runs specifically, they also faced an essentially equal amount of All-NBA opponents per series, however Jordan did face slightly more - Jordan 22 in 6 runs (3.66/run) | Lebron 32 in 9 runs (3.55/run). As for the strength of those All-NBA opponents per series in their Finals runs, Jordan's competition was also stronger (Jordan's 22 All-NBA Opponents: 47 points in 24 series = 1.96 points | Lebron's 32 All NBA Opponents: 57 points in 36 series = 1.58).

[LostCause]

Good info. Some guy on Reddit made a very comprehensive post regarding this not too long ago. I've referenced it before but I'll do it again since it's relevant to this thread:

A deep analysis was recently done for MJ/LeBron's playoff competition on Reddit. Links to both parts:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...tually_played/
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...tually_played/

Here's his Overall Analysis & Final Verdict, quoted (I'll post the relevant images below this post)


OVERALL ANALYSIS

LeBron has played the underdog for the majority of his career when it comes to facing elite teams. Jordan’s Finals winning teams were almost always better than the competition they faced, but they also faced competition that was usually equal to, and in a few cases better, than LeBron’s competition. Skill level of the teams surrounding Jordan and LeBron then comes into question (and is likely in Jordan's favor by a good amount), and it is a factor that I'm still working on quantifying (stay tuned).

There also comes the subject of LeBron’s series losses. Ultimately, you can’t hold it against LeBron that he’s had the bad luck of playing against some of the greatest teams ever. However, I do find it egregious the degree to which his teams have been beaten in some series. Even in Jordan’s second season, when the Bulls were still very much the “cocaine Bulls,” they still kept their series with the 86 Celtics closer than LeBron’s losses to both the 14 Spurs and 18 Warriors—and Jordan’s Bulls were unarguably a worse supporting cast around him at the time.


In my view, the only bad loss in Jordan's career comes at the hands of the 1988 Bad Boy Pistons, who graded out very similarly to the 1988 Bulls but manhandled them pretty thoroughly. At the time, Jordan and his teammates were young and inexperienced while those Pistons teams were on the verge of their watershed moment after having fought Bird's Celtics in the East for years.

Finally, LeBron has lost 3 series in which his team was better in the regular season: the 2009 ECF against the Magic, 2010 ECSF against the Celtics, and 2011 Finals against the Mavericks. Against the Mavericks, he turned in what is likely the worst performance ever by a Top-5 all-time player in any Finals series. He has done much to repair his reputation as a postseason performer in the years since, but the fact of the matter is that players in his echelon simply don't have series that bad, and it is something that should remain in the discussion when trying to pinpoint LeBron's place in the NBA pantheon.


The air is rare up here, and the only way to really distinguish between the greatest players ever is to examine anything that can offer a difference between otherwise identical résumés.

Final Verdict

LeBron has faced tougher competition, but his opponents have not been overwhelmingly better than Jordan's, contrary to popular belief—there should be more nuance to the discussion than simply saying "Jordan lost earlier in the playoffs more often," as Jordan had to play teams on par with LeBron's Finals opponents early in the playoffs due to the strength of the Eastern Conference in the 1980s. While LeBron has more impressive wins than Jordan, Jordan never lost a series in which his Bulls were the favorite, while LeBron has lost three.

[LostCause]

Cont...


Relevant Images:
Comparing their own teams (https://i.ibb.co/ykvLgMZ/krvx9yxxcev41.png)
First Round Opponents (https://i.ibb.co/nbMq1ry/pwd14vl877v41.png)
SemiFinals Opponents (https://i.ibb.co/vV6GdWm/k00conje87v41.png)
Conference Finals Opponents (https://i.ibb.co/Nxr5RR0/qr2pjzdc77v41.png)
Finals Opponents (https://i.ibb.co/chDmmfN/cf3wqgbndev41.png)
Series Wins (https://i.ibb.co/w0dJSW8/ev83kpz0dev41.png)
Series Losses (https://i.ibb.co/n105g3B/f8gvb53zcev41.png)
Toughest Competition (https://i.ibb.co/tLmqVYw/6uamlhx1cev41.png)

Enjoy folks!

EDIT: As an added bonus, I'll post the strength of conference chart that was posted there. Again, it's all found in the Reddit link but since some folks are lazy

Conferences during Jordans career (https://i.ibb.co/tJbbhLL/kvyboq9t67v41.png)
Conferences during LeBrons career (https://i.ibb.co/zPYsncm/ljfolvzt67v41.png)

[DoctorP]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Axe]

We've had a thread like this already iirc 🥴

[NBAGOAT]

meh i'm not a big fan of defining a team by a talent cup especially when it's just looking at the elite talent. Yes the general trend is great teams have the most great players but teams like the 02 kings arent uncommon.

Reddit analysis is insanely good though some numbers are unclear in the toughest competition table. Also not completely sure what numbers are, doesnt seem like net rtg or srs. I'll only say about conclusion part is playing an elite team in 1st round is not just due to conference strength but seeding of your own team granted being a 8th seed was definitely not jordan's fault.

It's a minor nitpick because that leads to an endless hole of repetitive pointless arguments that i'll just get out of the way.

"At least jordan made the playoffs his early years, lebron missed them in 04 and 05"

"16/23 teams made the playoffs in the mid 80s instead of 16/29"

"Lebron played with former/future all stars like zydrunas and boozer, should've at least made the playoffs"

"orlando woolridge scored 25 one year; Oakley was an all star like 7 years later!"

[LostCause]

It's a minor nitpick because that leads to an endless hole of repetitive pointless arguments that i'll just get out of the way.

"At least jordan made the playoffs his early years, lebron missed them in 04 and 05"

"16/23 teams made the playoffs in the mid 80s instead of 16/29"

"Lebron played with former/future all stars like zydrunas and boozer, should've at least made the playoffs"

"orlando woolridge scored 25 one year; Oakley was an all star like 7 years later!"

:oldlol:

[ELITEpower23]

It's a minor nitpick because that leads to an endless hole of repetitive pointless arguments that i'll just get out of the way.

"At least jordan made the playoffs his early years, lebron missed them in 04 and 05"

"16/23 teams made the playoffs in the mid 80s instead of 16/29"

"Lebron played with former/future all stars like zydrunas and boozer, should've at least made the playoffs"

"orlando woolridge scored 25 one year; Oakley was an all star like 7 years later!"

This post was gold on top of gold. I needed that gold stacking haha

[ELITEpower23]

Now do the one for their teammates

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Axe]

meh i'm not a big fan of defining a team by a talent cup especially when it's just looking at the elite talent. Yes the general trend is great teams have the most great players but teams like the 02 kings arent uncommon.

Reddit analysis is insanely good though some numbers are unclear in the toughest competition table. Also not completely sure what numbers are, doesnt seem like net rtg or srs. I'll only say about conclusion part is playing an elite team in 1st round is not just due to conference strength but seeding of your own team granted being a 8th seed was definitely not jordan's fault.

It's a minor nitpick because that leads to an endless hole of repetitive pointless arguments that i'll just get out of the way.

"At least jordan made the playoffs his early years, lebron missed them in 04 and 05"

"16/23 teams made the playoffs in the mid 80s instead of 16/29"

"Lebron played with former/future all stars like zydrunas and boozer, should've at least made the playoffs"

"orlando woolridge scored 25 one year; Oakley was an all star like 7 years later!"
Yet mj was somehow 1-9 without pip? 🤔😏

[theman93]

meh i'm not a big fan of defining a team by a talent cup especially when it's just looking at the elite talent. Yes the general trend is great teams have the most great players but teams like the 02 kings arent uncommon.

Reddit analysis is insanely good though some numbers are unclear in the toughest competition table. Also not completely sure what numbers are, doesnt seem like net rtg or srs. I'll only say about conclusion part is playing an elite team in 1st round is not just due to conference strength but seeding of your own team granted being a 8th seed was definitely not jordan's fault.

It's a minor nitpick because that leads to an endless hole of repetitive pointless arguments that i'll just get out of the way.

"At least jordan made the playoffs his early years, lebron missed them in 04 and 05"

"16/23 teams made the playoffs in the mid 80s instead of 16/29"

"Lebron played with former/future all stars like zydrunas and boozer, should've at least made the playoffs"

"orlando woolridge scored 25 one year; Oakley was an all star like 7 years later!"

This isn't meant to define the teams they played as a whole. Rather, it's to measure the cream of the crop players they faced.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Let's take a look at Jordan and Lebron's All-NBA playoff opponents.

Scoring System is Calculated as Follows:
1st Team All-NBA = 3 points | 2nd Team All-NBA = 2 points | 3rd Team All-NBA = 1 point


Jordan:
(1 series) 1985 - Cummings (2nd), Moncrief (2nd) = 4 points
(1 series) 1986 - Bird (1st) = 3 points
(1 series) 1987 - Bird (1st), McHale (1st) = 6 points
(2 series) 1988 - 0
(3 series) 1989 - Price (3rd) = 1 point
(3 series) 1990 - Barkley (1st), Dumars (3rd) = 4 points
(4 series) 1991 - Ewing (2nd), Barkley (1st), Dumars (3rd), Johnson (1st), Worthy (3rd) = 10 points
(4 series) 1992 - Ewing (2nd), Daughtery (3rd), Price (3rd), Drexler (1st) = 7 points
(4 series) 1993 - Wilkins (2nd), Price (1st), Ewing (2nd), Barkley (1st) = 10 points
(2 series) 1995 - Hardaway (1st), O'Neal (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 1996 - Hardaway (1st), O-Neal (3rd), Payton (2nd), Kemp (2nd) = 8 points
(4 series) 1997 - Hardaway (1st), Malone (1st), Stockton (2nd) = 8 points
(4 series) 1998 - Miller (3rd), Malone (1st) = 4 points
---------------------------------------------------
Total All-NBA Opponents - 32
Total Series Played - 37
Total Points - 70
Average All-NBA Opponents per Series (Total Series Played/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.15
Average All-NBA Opponent Strength (Total Points/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 2.19


Lebron:
(2 series) 2006 - Arenas (3rd), Billups (2nd), Wallace (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 2007 - Arenas (2nd), Billups (3rd), Duncan (1st) = 6 points
(2 series) 2008 - Garnett (1st), Pierce (3rd) = 4 points
(3 series) 2009 - Howard (1st) = 3 points
(2 series) 2010 - 0
(4 series) 2011 - Rose (1st), Nowitzki (2nd) = 5 points
(4 series) 2012 - Anthony (3rd), Rondo (3rd), Durant (1st), Westbrook (2nd) = 7 points
(4 series) 2013 - George (3rd), Duncan (1st), Parker (2nd) = 6 points
(4 series) 2014 - Jefferson (3rd), George (3rd), Parker (2nd) = 4 points
(4 series) 2015 - Gasol (2nd), Curry (1st), Thompson (3rd) = 6 points
(4 series) 2016 - Drummond (3rd), Lowry (3rd) Curry (1st), Green (2nd), Thompson (3rd) = 8 points
(4 series) 2017 - DeRozan (3rd), Thomas (2nd), Durant (2nd), Curry (2nd), Green (3rd) = 8 points
(4 series) 2018 - Oladipo (3rd), DeRozan (2nd), Durant (1st), Curry (3rd) = 7 points
--------------------------------------------------
Total All-NBA Opponents - 38
Total Series Played - 45
Total Points - 69
Average All-NBA Opponents per Series (Total Series Played/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.18
Average All-NBA Opponents Strength (Total Points/Total All-NBA Opponents) = 1.82


Conclusion: Lebron and Jordan faced a basically equal amount of All-NBA Opponents in a given playoff series (0.03 disparity in favor of Lebron), while Jordan faced much stronger All-NBA Opponents in a given playoff series (0.37 disparity in favor of Jordan). This is an impressive feat especially when you consider Jordan's playoff record (119-60 = 66.5 win%) in comparison to Lebron's playoff record (156-83 = 65.3 win%) along with their playoff series record in comparison to one another (Jordan: 30-7 = 81.0 win% | Lebron: 35-10 = 77.8 win%).

Against an essentially equal amount of All-NBA Opponents in a given a playoff series that were stronger, Jordan has a better playoff

I’m a LeBron fan but this is very eye opening. I’m finishing rewatching the Jordan documentary. I have been learning a lot of things about MJ’s competition are myths. I still have LeBron as the GOAT though.

[Jordan96]

OP, what about the All-NBA teammates LeBron and Jordan played with?


Shouldn’t you also be comparing their all-nba teammates against their competition

LeBron had 4 All-NBA teammates in 17 seasons, how many did Jordan have?


How many All-NBA teammates did LeBron have on average per playoff run compared to Jordan? Can you run that analysis?

[LostCause]

OP, what about the All-NBA teammates LeBron and Jordan played with?


Shouldn’t you also be comparing their all-nba teammates against their competition

LeBron had 4 All-NBA teammates in 17 seasons, how many did Jordan have?


How many All-NBA teammates did LeBron have on average per playoff run compared to Jordan? Can you run that analysis?
https://i.ibb.co/ykvLgMZ/krvx9yxxcev41.png

[GimmeThat]

law of scarcity and units

interesting idea, the only suggestion I would make is the scoring system
I think it should be 1st team = 3, 2nd team = 1.5, and 3rd team = 1

say you're the top 15 players out of the 30 teams. 15/30 = 0.5 justifying the numeric differential between none 3rd team members and 3 team members at 1 and 0
as you're the top 10 players out of the 30 teams, 10/30 = 0.3333, which equates to 0.5/0.3333 = 1.5
and the top 5 players out of the 30 teams, 5/30 = 0.1666, which equates to 0.5/0.166666 = 3

this is again, part of another series of examining FMVP = 1, ring = 1, and MVP = 1

[light]

Problem. You're very lucky if you're facing Hardaway (1st) instead of Curry (3rd), for example.

Durant (1st) should be worth a hell of a lot more than Price (1st).

So maybe these should be weighted differently.

[ELITEpower23]

OP, what about the All-NBA teammates LeBron and Jordan played with?


Shouldn’t you also be comparing their all-nba teammates against their competition

LeBron had 4 All-NBA teammates in 17 seasons, how many did Jordan have?


How many All-NBA teammates did LeBron have on average per playoff run compared to Jordan? Can you run that analysis?

They did not think it all the way thru


92: Pippen (2nd team)
93: Pippen (3rd team)
94: Pippen (1st team)
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team)
97: Pippen (2nd team)
98: Pippen (3rd team)

7x

Plus all defense is huge, I think LeBron had 2 players ever make all defense, meanwhile Michael J had:
91: Pippen (2nd team)
92: Pippen (1st team)
93: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team)
94: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team) and Rodman (1st team)
97: Pippen (1st team)
98: Pippen (1st team)

11x more, (we can exclude 94 since MJ was on a lunch break)

So that's

6x All NBA
9x All Defensive
15 total selections

LeBron has how many teammates like this? 8 in his whole career? Maybe less?

[theman93]

Problem. You're very lucky if you're facing Hardaway (1st) instead of Curry (3rd), for example.

Durant (1st) should be worth a hell of a lot more than Price (1st).

So maybe these should be weighted differently.

I'd say it balances out fairly well. Durant should be worth more then Price as 1st Teamers, but you could also say Ewing/Shaq/Payton should be worth more than Wallace/DeRozan as 2nd Teamers. Or that Worthy should be worth more than Lowry as 3rd Teamers.

[Roundball_Rock]

They did not think it all the way thru


92: Pippen (2nd team)
93: Pippen (3rd team)
94: Pippen (1st team)
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team)
97: Pippen (2nd team)
98: Pippen (3rd team)

7x

Plus all defense is huge, I think LeBron had 2 players ever make all defense, meanwhile Michael J had:
91: Pippen (2nd team)
92: Pippen (1st team)
93: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team)
94: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team) and Rodman (1st team)
97: Pippen (1st team)
98: Pippen (1st team)

11x more, (we can exclude 94 since MJ was on a lunch break)

So that's

6x All NBA
9x All Defensive
15 total selections

LeBron has how many teammates like this? 8 in his whole career? Maybe less?

They did but they know if you show the info for the opposing teams Jordan's teams have the edge and LeBron's a deficit (in the finals). Hence concealing the other 50% of the equation. Here is the data for finals:

LeBron’s Teams

2007: 1 each (LeBron, Duncan)
2011: 2 versus 1 (LeBron, Wade and Dirk)
2012: 2 each (LeBron, Wade and Durant, Westbrook)
2013: 2 each (LeBron, Wade and Duncan, Parker)
2014: 1 each (LeBron and Parker)
2015: 2 each (LeBron, Irving and Curry, Thompson)
2016: 1 versus 3 (LeBron and Curry, Thompson, Green)
2017: 1 versus 3 (LeBron and Durant, Curry, Green)
2018: 1 versus 2 (LeBron and Durant, Curry)
Totals: 13 for LeBron’s teams, 17 for the opposition

This started out even but by his second stint in Cleveland it became lopsided in favor of the opposition. In total, LeBron’s teams had more all-NBA players once while the opposition had the edge three times. Since Irving played only four quarters of the 2015 finals, the opposition effectively had the advantage in each of LeBron’s last four finals. If you exclude Irving, LeBron's teams had a 12-17 deficit.

Jordan’s Teams

1991: 1 versus 2 (Jordan and Magic, Worthy)
1992: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Drexler)
1993: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Barkely)
1996: 2 each (Jordan, Pippen and Payton, Kemp)
1997: 2 each (Jordan, Pippen and Malone, Stockton)
1998: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Malone)
Totals: 11 for Jordan’s teams, 9 for the opposition

Jordan’s teams had the edge in three of his six finals and parity in two more. Only in 91’ did the opposing team have the edge and Worthy went down in Game 4 of the series.

Kareem’s Teams

1971: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Oscar and G. Johnson)
1974: 1 each (Kareem and Havlicek)
1980: 1 each (Kareem and Erving)
1982: 1 each (Magic and Erving)
1983: 2 each (Kareem, Magic and Moses, Erving)
1984: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Magic and Bird)
1985: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Magic and Bird)
Total: 11 for Kareem’s teams, 8 for the opposition


Here it basically was even until 1984 (7-6), when Kareem was 37 years old by the playoffs.

What is striking is Kareem had only one all-NBA teammate in his career (Oscar in 71') until 82' (when he was 34 and past his prime).

[Bankaii]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).

What 2019 team is better...
CP3, Klay, Jimmy Butler, Ibaka, Gasol or Curry, JR Smith, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Jokic (0 All-NBA vs 2 All-NBA 1st)

[tpols]

Gotta compare teammate strength relative to that competition as well.

Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh and Love all made all NBA teams either before or with Lebron.

Im guessing Scottie Pippen is the only all NBA player MJ needed to win. and he won twice the amount with it.

Game over.

[ArbitraryWater]

People don't understand that talent was more spread in the 90's, playing Chuck on a shitty Sixers team isnt the same as playing Rondo or George on loaded teams.

The 90's had one superstar per team, and the Bulls were the exception.

Exel sheets wont change those details.

[LostCause]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).


This is true. It really comes down to how well the team plays, irrespective of who has 1 more superstar or whatever. The Bucks were the most dominant team in the league this year, they have 1 superstar. I didn’t see anyone saying how unfair it was the Lakers had 2.

LeBrons biggest blemish is losing to a Mavs team with 1 superstar while his team had 2

The Spurs you mentioned

If a team is clicking and playing well, that’s what matters. I posted some info earlier in the thread that goes beyond just looking at stars but focused on just how good the teams actually were in reality, and not just on paper

[ImKobe]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).

What 2019 team is better...
CP3, Klay, Jimmy Butler, Ibaka, Gasol or Curry, JR Smith, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Jokic (0 All-NBA vs 2 All-NBA 1st)


False. 2009 Magic stacks up pretty well. Peak Howard with versatile forwards on the perimeter in Hedo & Rashard, that roster was ahead of it's time. They didn't beat the Cavs by accident.

[theman93]

They did but they know if you show the info for the opposing teams Jordan's teams have the edge and LeBron's a deficit (in the finals). Hence concealing the other 50% of the equation. Here is the data for finals:

Nothing was concealed. When you only include the Finals it leaves out a great amount of data, which is precisely what you did. The topic of this particular study is Jordan and Lebron's All-NBA Opponents. The data presented here takes in to account every single All-NBA opponent from every single series for both players during the span of their respective careers. Not just the Finals and not just the East so the data cannot be skewed in either direction.

[Roundball_Rock]

How about all-NBA players on their respective teams? That is the other side of the equation. Using the finals and ECF (ECSF to represent 95') for time saving purposes (first options removed to compare "cast" strength):

1991 ECF: Dumars 3rd team
1991 finals: Worthy 3rd
1992 ECF: Pippen 2nd team vs. Daughtery 3rd
1992 Finals: Pippen 2nd team
1993 ECF: Pippen 3rd team
1993 Finals: Pippen 3rd team
1995 ECSF: Pippen 1st team vs. Penny 1st
1996 ECF: Pippen 1st team vs. Penny 1st
1996 Finals: Pippen 1st vs. Kemp 2nd
1997 ECF: Pippen 2nd
1997 Finals: Pippen 2nd vs. Stockton 3rd
1998 ECF: Pippen 3rd
1998 Finals: Pippen 3rd

That is a clear, consistent advantage after 1991.

[BigShotBob]

People don't understand that talent was more spread in the 90's, playing Chuck on a shitty Sixers team isnt the same as playing Rondo or George on loaded teams.

The 90's had one superstar per team, and the Bulls were the exception.

Exel sheets wont change those details.

PG13 was on a loaded team now? :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan never lost with HCA, while Lebron lost 3 years in a row with it including to a career loser in Dwight Howard. Lebron also got swept when many considered him the best in the league. Jordan never got swept when he was considered the best in the league. Lebron was also down 3-2 every year of his career including 5 years in a row with HCA.