MJ is #1 in all rate of production stats (PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons), so...

[3ball]

so lebron's goat argument is playing at a lower level for longer (longevity), and having his sidekick outplay the league MVP in 16'??

Got it..

[light]

MJ is #1 in all rate of production stats (PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons), so... so lebron's goat argument is playing at a lower level for longer (longevity), and having his sidekick outplay the league MVP in 16'??

Got it..

There’s a very good reason for that.

John Hollinger touches on this a bit in his explanation of PER, but basically it boils down to this:

If your new fancy statistic does not have the GOAT Michael Jordan at the top of it, people will not accept it.

Hollinger explains how in the late stages before release he adjusted his formula to make sure that whatever list it spit out, it had the “right” guys at the top - Jordan, Wilt, etc.

Every inventor of a statistic has to worry about this and they do the same kinds of things.

[2ball]

LeBron only has counting stats. Meanwhile MJ has volume stats (load carrying) which is a true measurement of greatness

[Roundball_Rock]

John Hollinger touches on this a bit in his explanation of PER, but basically it boils down to this:

If your new fancy statistic does not have the GOAT Michael Jordan at the top of it, people will not accept it.

Hollinger explains how in the late stages before release he adjusted his formula to make sure that whatever list it spit out, it had the “right” guys at the top - Jordan, Wilt, etc.

Every inventor of a statistic has to worry about this and they do the same kinds of things.

Do you have a link to this? This is very damning.

[3ball]

Do you have a link to this? This is very damning.

I hope you're not joking

[Rico2016]

Playoff records

Runs over 30 PER
-LeBron (1st) 6

Points scored
-LeBron (1st) 6911

Steals
-LeBron (1st) 419

Game winners
-LeBron (1st) 9

Finals Triple Doubles
-LeBron (1st) 12

Winshares
LeBron (1st) 52

VORP
-LeBron (1st) 128

30 point playoff games
-LeBron (1st) 121

Just getting warmed up

[Turbo Slayer]

2009 Playoff LeBron is arguably the greatest playoff run ever besting MJ best playoff run in every advanced stat. (1990-91). LeBron had the higher peak.

3ball is desperately trying to tell everyone that LeBron isn't on Mj's level when in fact LeBron IS on MJ's level.

If LeBron was drafted to a better team and office and if unfortunate circumstances didn't happen (like Durant joining Warriors), he would have likely have more championships and 3ball would be sobbing in tears by now.

[Turbo Slayer]

But hey MJ needs to be #1 in everything.

[3ball]

2009 Playoff LeBron is arguably the greatest playoff run ever besting MJ best playoff run in every advanced stat. (1990-91). LeBron had the higher peak.

3ball is desperately trying to tell everyone that LeBron isn't on Mj's level when in fact LeBron IS on MJ's level.

Yes no one would've ever thought it was possible to lose with a 37 PER and 0.400 ws/48.. yet lebron found a way.. the goat LOSER.. he's literally GOOD at it

he found a way to not get doubled and therefore let the opponent's defense play an adjustment-less, stay-at-home brand that shut dpwn teammates..

Ultimately, Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively - the best defense is a good offense, and lebron failed in the 14' Finals, 09' ECF, 15' Finals, 08' ECSF, 07' Finals, 10' ECSF, 17' Finals, 18' Finals.. and more

the goat empty-stat-pad brand... aka perennial underdog and loser with super-teams, regardless of opponent

[Turbo Slayer]

Yes no one would've ever thought it was possible to lose with a 37 PER and 0.400 ws/48.. yet lebron found a way.. the goat LOSER.. he's literally GOOD at it

he found a way to not get doubled and therefore let the opponent's defense play an adjustment-less, stay-at-home brand that shut dpwn teammates..

Ultimately, Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively - the best defense is a good offense, and lebron failed in the 14' Finals, 09' ECF, 15' Finals, 08' ECSF, 07' Finals, 10' ECSF, 17' Finals, 18' Finals.. and more

the goat empty-stat-pad brand... aka perennial underdog and loser with super-teams, regardless of opponent Baketball is a team game man. A ****ing idiot like you wouldnt get it but well. All of your reasoning are flawed. The only time LeBron has NOT performed up to all time great standard is in 2010 or 2011 (Playoffs). That's it. Every year except those well, greatness.

LeBron had Mo Williams in his 1st stint while MJ had Pippen, a top 10 player in his era

[tpols]

He doesn't lead efficiency.

[Turbo Slayer]

He doesn't lead efficiency. True.

[3ball]

Baketball is a team game man. A ****ing idiot like you wouldnt get it but well. All of your reasoning are flawed. The only time LeBron has NOT performed up to all time great standard is in 2010 or 2011 (Playoffs). That's it. Every year except those well, greatness.

LeBron had Mo Williams in his 1st stint while MJ had Pippen, a top 10 player in his era


1) Dwight's team was equally weak by every measure and was infact one of the 5 biggest underdog winners in playoff history:



Of the 459 playoff series since 1988 where odds were available, 100 (22%) of underdogs went on to win the series. Here's the seven underdog winners that were +500 or higher before the start of series:



Odds: Magic +550 / Cavaliers -700

Result: Magic 4-2

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.actionnetwork.com/nba/biggest-nba-playoff-upsets-betting-odds-basketball-history



2) Lebron lost to the #4 SRS Magic with 18 on 38% from Mo and the #3 team defense - MJ always won with that help - he won many series with worse than the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from sidekick

[Rico2016]

Playoff records

Runs over 30 PER
-LeBron (1st) 6

Points scored
-LeBron (1st) 6911

Steals
-LeBron (1st) 419

Game winners
-LeBron (1st) 9

Finals Triple Doubles
-LeBron (1st) 12

Winshares
-LeBron (1st) 52

VORP
-LeBron (1st) 128

30 point playoff games
-LeBron (1st) 121

Just getting warmed up

2ball don't run now. Please let me know when you're ready to accept LeBar has been set.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan never lost with HCA, while Lebron lost 3 years in a row with it including to a career loser in Dwight Howard. Lebron also got swept when many considered him the best in the league. Jordan never got swept when he was considered the best in the league. Lebron was also down 3-2 every year of his career including 5 years in a row with HCA.

[Faksnima]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

[MrFonzworth]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

Welcome to ISH! Please space out your posts so we don't have any problems:)

Thanks!

[Rico2016]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

Dumb. If it was so easy why did only 1 guy do it.

2011: Finals
2012: Finals
2013: Finals
2014: Finals
2015: Finals
2016: Finals
2017: Finals
2018: Finals

MJ stans are only used to 3 Finals in a row and then a 2 year freshen up vacation.

[Faksnima]

I'm not an MJ stan, lol. I'm not even huge on MJ. I already made my point - all the best players were in the West....with the exception of Giannis and Rose (who was far too young), all the MVPS were in the West. Kawhi proved my point last year. He just waltzed to the finals. So he went to the Finals 8 times and lost 5, with super-teams. It wasn't Lebron and a solid team, it was manufactured super teams and he still went 3-5. Cmon man. In 10 years, Bryant made it 7 times and won 5. Duncan went there 6 times and won 5. Curry went there 5 times and won 3. No excuses.

[RRR3]

If LeBron was the smartest player ever he would have realized Kevin Love’s atrocious defense was costing him but he never did. People still think Love helped LeBron overall lol. Low IQ. Of course maybe LeBron did realize it and was too stubborn to do anything about it. He does have a great mind for basketball. Still, I’ve always thought Love cost LeBron competitively against the Warriors. Would have been MUCH better off with Paul Millsap.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan never lost with HCA

That cuts both ways. How often did MJ win without HCA? LeBron has done it several times, including in the NBA finals and ECF.


Jordan never got swept when he was considered the best in the league

Jordan was 2nd in MVP behind Magic, ahead of Bird. He had a similar case in 87' as LeBron circa 07'.

[LostCause]

I don't particularly care for PER or Gamescore but I notice some of the folks here absolutely love these metrics. Here are the respective Gamescores between Jordan and LeBron ranked

Top Regular Seasons by Game Score

1988 Jordan 28.8
1989 Jordan 28.6
1990 Jordan 27.6
1987 Jordan 27.4
1991 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.6
1993 Jordan 25.5
1992 Jordan 24.4
2013 LeBron 24.4
2009 LeBron 24.3


Top Postseasons by Game Score

1986 Jordan 30.6
2009 LeBron 29.9
1990 Jordan 29.0
2018 LeBron 28.3
2017 LeBron 28.2
1989 Jordan 27.8
1991 Jordan 27.4
1988 Jordan 27.2
1987 Jordan 26.9
1993 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.4
1992 Jordan 25.1