Does MJ’s inability to play against the Zone remove him from GOAT status?

[Nowitness]

“ Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did“

Imagine LBJ saying something as ridiculous as this, he’d be crucified.

But the limp alcoholic, yellowed eyed chain smoker says it and we sweep it under the rug.

The man literally said if he played in 2020 he’d be Rip Hamilton 😂😂😂

[Overdrive]

“ Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did“

Imagine LBJ saying something as ridiculous as this, he’d be crucified.

But the limp alcoholic, yellowed eyed chain smoker says it and we sweep it under the rug.

The man literally said if he played in 2020 he’d be Rip Hamilton 😂😂😂

He expected a full fledged zone defense. The stuff the play in FIBA. No defensive 3 seconds. No removal of hand checking etc. That shit would've killed wing players for good.

[Manny98]

He expected a full fledged zone defense. The stuff the play in FIBA. No defensive 3 seconds. No removal of hand checking etc. That shit would've killed wing players for good.
No he didn't he was just talking about zones in general

[baudkarma]

MJ arguing against the zone does not prove that he couldn't play against it. Let's just imagine, for a moment, that Jordan isn't a self-serving asshat and actually has the good of the game in mind. He's saying that the zone defense would inhibit talented wing players... himself certainly, but others as well... from playing the exciting basketball that had led the NBA to unprecedented heights in the 90's. His argument isn't self-serving, he's just concerned about the future of the sport!

Total BS of course, MJ was never concerned about anybody but MJ. But his arguments still resonate. Why put in a rule that makes the game less exciting? That muzzles its most exciting, popular players?

[Overdrive]

No he didn't he was just talking about zones in general

The zone implemented in the NBA later on didn't exist before. Zone meant FIBA rules basketball.

[light]

“ Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did“

Imagine LBJ saying something as ridiculous as this, he’d be crucified.

But the limp alcoholic, yellowed eyed chain smoker says it and we sweep it under the rug.

The man literally said if he played in 2020 he’d be Rip Hamilton ������

Wow. Great find, my dude. This is a smoking gun.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jordan-decries-zone.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-gang-up.png

He is literally saying that he could not have had the career that he had playing under the rules that LeBron James plays under.

:applause:

[Bronbron23]

“ Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did“

Imagine LBJ saying something as ridiculous as this, he’d be crucified.

But the limp alcoholic, yellowed eyed chain smoker says it and we sweep it under the rug.

The man literally said if he played in 2020 he’d be Rip Hamilton 😂😂😂

You guys are stupid with this shit. Zones dont work in the nba and they definitely didn't work on mj. Do yall even watch games? Teams played zones. The nba rarely called illegal defense especially in the playoffs. Mj killed zone defenses. I really dont think yall know shit about the game. What kills zone defenses? On and off ball movement and penetration. Mj was elite at both and he played in a system that would be a nightmare for zone defenses. My guess is that you have no idea why that is though:facepalm

[LostCause]

Total BS of course, MJ was never concerned about anybody but MJ. But his arguments still resonate. Why put in a rule that makes the game less exciting? That muzzles its most exciting, popular players?

This

This zone argument is silly. Jordan already played against plenty of zones in the NBA prior, and the committee who decided to change the rules literally said their reason for changing them was to open the game up and make it more exciting because scoring in the late 90s/early 00s was too low. The goal was to make it easier to score especially in transition and from the perimeter. This is stated right there in the official rule change page on nba.com


No he didn't he was just talking about zones in general

Wrong. There were already legal zones in the NBA and Defensive 3 seconds (A form of illegal defense) was emphasized at the same time to prevent unrestricted zones. Additionally, hand-checking was still around. If you want to see what MJ was arguing in, look at the NBA from about 01-04. They circled back to emphasize hand-checking removal because they weren't doing enough to curtail it while allowing more zones to be played, which is why you got brutal defenses like the 04 Pistons/Spurs etc. For reference, here's an excerpt from an article in the 80s about what most people thought when they thought about unrestricted zones:
https://vault.si.com/vault/1985/10/28/give-the-dan-a-plus

It would be worth the NBA's while, it seems, to experiment for a season, or a preseason, with all-out zone. This would make life easier on the refs and take some of the hypocrisy out of their calls. However, most NBA people absolutely cringe at the suggestion of a legal full-fledged zone because they fear the kind of zone that would be played. They see teams stationing their big men within finger-roll distance of the basket, arms spread, pterodactyl-like, all the way across the floor, discouraging any kind of penetration to the basket. "We don't want a jump-shooting league," they say.

Defensive 3 seconds prevents that from ever occurring, additionally, if you read the rest of the article it makes a very accurate depiction of what eventually became of the NBA with the implentation of more zones being allowed:


Players are far better shooters than they were a couple of decades ago, when 40% from a guard would be acceptable. Now there are guards shooting better than 50%. Go ahead, you clowns on defense, sit back in a zone and just watch us shoot you right out of it.

And wouldn't zone defense encourage transition basketball, the NBA's real calling card? The way to beat a zone, better than bombing it from outside, is to zap it before it sets up. Granted, once a zone is set up, 24 seconds isn't much time. "Big deal," says Newell. "So just start the clock when teams get it past midcourt."

"Teams that don't win now wouldn't be able to win with the zone," contends Portland G.M. Stu Inman. Says Detroit forward Kent Benson, "I just don't think it would change the game that much."

Notice how that's exactly what the league is today? MJ and most perimeter players from the past would absolutely love to play in the game today though given the spacing and freedom of movement rules in place. It's simply far too slanted toward offense

[light]

On another semi-related note, Jordan's inability to make threes is what will eventually remove him from GOAT status.

Future observers will not accept his .294 3PT% from the regular distance - not when three point shooting has become so important and super deep threes are the most badass shots any player can make.

He will be seen as antiquated. George Mikan.

LeBron will be the only acceptable GOAT candidate from our time.

[Bronbron23]

On another semi-related note, Jordan's inability to make threes is what will eventually remove him from GOAT status.

Future observers will not accept his .294 3PT% from the regular distance - not when three point shooting has become so important and super deep threes are the most badass shots any player can make.

He will be seen as antiquated. George Mikan.

LeBron will be the only acceptable GOAT candidate from our time.

right because literally every top 15 atg other than bird didn't need alot of threes to dominate and even bird didn't need to rely on it. This three craze is overrated and relies heavily on the era allowing for guys to shoot them while pretty much facing very little defense. Good luck shooting all these threes with real defense wheres guys are allowed to body players and are allowed to fight through screens. Theres a reason why someone like curry and harden struggle more deep in the playoffs where defenses are allowed to be more physical.

[Rico2016]

Wow. Great find, my dude. This is a smoking gun.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jordan-decries-zone.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-gang-up.png

He is literally saying that he could not have had the career that he had playing under the rules that LeBron James plays under.

:applause:

Wow. Shattering evidence.

[Overdrive]

Wow. Great find, my dude. This is a smoking gun.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jordan-decries-zone.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jordan-gang-up.png

He is literally saying that he could not have had the career that he had playing under the rules that LeBron James plays under.

:applause:

Lebron doesn't play under zone defense rules.

[nayte]

Like 98 percent of polls have him as goat.so to answer your question.No it doesnt

[Nowitness]

Like 98 percent of polls have him as goat.so to answer your question.No it doesnt

Most people voting wouldn't be aware that he himself said he was a product of his era. Had he played without the horrible illegal defense he'd be compared more to a Jerry Stackhouse than a LeBron James.

[Overdrive]

Most people voting wouldn't be aware that he himself said he was a product of his era. Had he played without the horrible illegal defense he'd be compared more to a Jerry Stackhouse than a LeBron James.

It's still illegal to use most zone defense ased tactics today. When the NBA implemented the new rules they outlawed more of them than they allowed, but keep ignoring the facts.

Lebron does not play zone defenses as the were known back when that article was published.

[nayte]

Most people voting wouldn't be aware that he himself said he was a product of his era. Had he played without the horrible illegal defense he'd be compared more to a Jerry Stackhouse than a LeBron James.

I think most people who vote those awards would be well aware of that.If we are why would you think they are not?

[Nowitness]

I think most people who vote those awards would be well aware of that.If we are why would you think they are not?

Because most people never actually watched MJ? Same way old heads try to claim the game was so physical back then, that hand checking was rife and that guys like MJ and Bird would average 50 today, it’s all lies.

Point remains MJ literally said he’d be a scrub playing against the zone. Now people are trying to argue that in fact he played against zones his whole career ������

[Bronbron23]

“ Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did“

Imagine LBJ saying something as ridiculous as this, he’d be crucified.

But the limp alcoholic, yellowed eyed chain smoker says it and we sweep it under the rug.

The man literally said if he played in 2020 he’d be Rip Hamilton 😂😂😂

Its shit like this that makes me wonder if yall even watch games. Zones were illegal but they barely enforced it. Plenty of teams played zone against mj. Go back and watch how detroit and early 90's teams defended him. It be like saying lebron hasnt faced hand checking. Yeah technically you cant hand check but defenders still do it all the time

[Rico2016]

He is the modern equivalent of Bill Russell. Both played in a watered down era, on stacked teams, with the edge, against lesser opponents, under primitive rules. Not bad for 60s and 90s ball but we have 3 point lines and LEGAL zone defense now. Sorry to burst that bubble.

[HoopsNY]

Because most people never actually watched MJ? Same way old heads try to claim the game was so physical back then, that hand checking was rife and that guys like MJ and Bird would average 50 today, it’s all lies.

Point remains MJ literally said he’d be a scrub playing against the zone. Now people are trying to argue that in fact he played against zones his whole career ������

This is true, but Mj did play against the zone, which is essentially the point.

[HoopsNY]

The zone defense argument is a strange one. Just look at how other perimeter players played after the banning of illegal defense in 2001. Guys like Kobe, Allen, Tmac, Iverson, etc did just as good, if not better with the zone than without it. I believe one of the reasons for this is that superior athletes are able to split defenders much more easily and since hand checking was banned, there's not way to stop a perimeter player from moving around on the court.

Mj's top points performances between 2001-2003 were against the best defenses in the league (13th or better), with 8 of his top 12 performances (35 pts or higher) coming against elite defensive teams, including the top ranked Hornets and Nets who he would torch for 45-50 pts, making him the oldest player ever to score such amounts.

So if it wasn't good at stopping Mj, Kobe, Allen, Pierce, McGrady, Iverson, etc, then why would it have been good in the 90s? Since the incorporation of these rules (elimination of hand-checking, illegal defense, 14 sec shot clock rule), we have only seen an increase in points and pace. We haven't seen a decrease.

[Rico2016]

This is true, but Mj did play against the zone, which is essentially the point.

In Washington yes, but we saw those year playout for MJ. Suddenly he was human under legal zone defense.

https://i.postimg.cc/m2rqqjfR/Zone-Dgoogle.jpg

[HoopsNY]

In Washington yes, but we saw those year playout for MJ. Suddenly he was human under legal zone defense.

https://i.postimg.cc/m2rqqjfR/Zone-Dgoogle.jpg

This is really a decontextualized way of looking at it. Jordan was averaging 26-6-5 prior to injury that season WITH the zone defense, at the age of 38! And that season was one of the slowest paced seasons in NBA history.

Jordan's PPG Per 100 (2001-02): 35.7
Jordan's PPG Per 100 (1984-85): 35.5

And this is with him being 38-39, off of a 3 year lapse, with injuries, and with a zone defense. This isn't to say that MJ at 38-39 had the same scoring abilities he did as a rookie, but it does put things into perspective.

Stop being a hater. I know you hate MJ but at least be objective about it.

[Real14]

Can Lebron play through the physical contact MJ played back then??? I don't think so ISH.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is really a decontextualized way of looking at it. Jordan was averaging 26-6-5 prior to injury that season WITH the zone defense, at the age of 38! And that season was one of the slowest paced seasons in NBA history.

Jordan's PPG Per 100 (2001-02): 35.7
Jordan's PPG Per 100 (1984-85): 35.5

And this is with him being 38-39, off of a 3 year lapse, with injuries, and with a zone defense. This isn't to say that MJ at 38-39 had the same scoring abilities he did as a rookie, but it does put things into perspective.

Stop being a hater. I know you hate MJ but at least be objective about it.

:coleman:

That 85' number is on 25.0 FGA per 100 possessions; the 02' number is on 34.4 FGA per 100 possessions. There is a material difference between the two. :oldlol: Plus rookie MJ is the worst version of pre-Wizards MJ.

My view is great players will always find a way and Jordan would have adapted to a zone BTW.