Why Scottie Pippen Was As Important As Michael Jordan - BBALLBREAKDOWN

[ArbitraryWater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kV5OdiaghE

Enjoy

[FultzNationRISE]

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/anime-arts/images/2/25/Applause-o.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131225161738

[light]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kV5OdiaghE

Enjoy

tl;dr

“Despite how Scottie may or may not have been portrayed in The Last Dance, at the height of his powers he could’ve been considered the 2nd best player in the league behind Michael Jordan.

He was an MVP candidate the year MJ retired, won MVP in the All-Star game that year, and consistently made the kind of all-world plays very few people could make.

But it was the way he played the game, and his concern with making his teammates better by blending in to the offense, that made the Bulls such all-time greats, and cemented his legacy as the best #2 of all time.”

"the best #2 of all time"

Tried to compliment him, still called him a POS. :applause:

[knicksman]

no matter how great his stats are. Beta dogs will always be beta dogs and they will always be inferior to alpha dogs. Thats why lebron settles for ringchasers rings coz he just doesnt have the same standards as alpha dogs.

[Manny98]

#nopipnochip

[3ball]

1990's.... no one gives 2 bitd shits about Pippen or thinks he's that good

2020's.... Pippen was the #2 player in the league


It's the era of fake news and lying... Plain and simple

[ArbitraryWater]

1990's.... no one gives 2 bitd shits about Pippen or thinks he's that good

2020's.... Pippen was the #2 player in the league


It's the era of fake news and lying... Plain and simple


Why are you so angry

No Pip, no Chip.

He was a top 5 player, MJ should be very thankful he had him

[3ball]

Why are you so angry

No Pip, no Chip.

He was a top 5 player, MJ should be very thankful he had him

Barkley was about the #5 player (Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone)

Pippen is nowhere near Barkley and was never top 5... It's simply a lie.. plain and simple

Carry on, but you should be embarrassed that you lap up what you see on TV.. make up your own mind.. Stephen A and Skip Bayless know far less about this stuff than we do

[Chest Rockwell]

1990's.... no one gives 2 bitd shits about Pippen or thinks he's that good

2020's.... Pippen was the #2 player in the league


It's the era of fake news and lying... Plain and simple

Correct. It has come to the point where we have an entire generation of NBA fans who, for a myriad of reasons, many of which coming in bad-faith and stemming from a place of deeply rooted insecurities, have adopted a revisionist’s history of the league; one that does not come anywhere close to aligning with reality.

Scottie Pippen was a terrific ball player and an excellent complimentary piece to any ball club. At no point was he the 2nd best player in the league. The notion is laughable on its face.

If not for the benefit of developing and playing alongside Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen today would be thought of as and remembered as a player in a tier that resides about a half a rung to a full rung lower than Dominique Wilkins. And remember, Dominque was left on the outside looking in on the NBA’s 50 greatest players of all-time list.

And considering Pip wasn’t even as good as Dominique overall, any prospective Scottie Pippen lead squad back then, at its best, would’ve gotten you roughly only about as far as Dominique was able to lead the Hawks: which is to say a conference semi-finals.

Here’s a snapshot of how far Nique was able to take Atlanta as the main man, beginning his 2nd season in the league...and remember, Pippen wasn’t as good as this guy

‘84 (age 24) - 1st rd exit
‘85 (age 25) - missed playoffs
‘86 (age 26) - 2nd rd exit
‘87 (age 27) - 2nd rd exit
‘88 (age 28) - 2nd rd exit
‘89 (age 29) - 1st rd exit
‘90 (age 30) - missed playoffs
‘91 (age 31) - 1st rd exit
‘92 (age 32) - missed playoffs *ruptured Achilles mid-way through season
‘93 (age 33) - 1st rd exit

[Dr Hawk]

The best #2 of all-time would be Kevin Garnett. David Robinson would be a better #2 than Pippen too.

[Rico2016]

No Pip

[LAmbruh]

No Chip

[Jamal23]

Pippen gets underrated by Jordan stans and the Jordan propaganda media who try to make out that Jordan was God but gets overrated by people who dislike Jordan or don't think he's the GOAT

Reality is that Pippen was the best perimeter defender the league has ever seen and the second best non big man of his era

Jordan fans need to understand that Pippens greatness doesn't take away from MJ as a player. He's still the GOAT in most people's eyes and nothing is going to change that

Same thing with Horace Grant who I also feel gets underrated massively because Jordan fans feel the need to put down every one of his teammates.

It's weird and just reeks of insecurity

[FultzNationRISE]

No girth, no finals birth.

Pip drove a dagger thru MJ’s 1-9 past and took him to championship heights like a guy swooping down on a helicopter ladder to rescue someone from a burning building

[Real14]

In 94, Scottie quit on his team in the playoffs.

[warriorfan]

Shitty vid. Low iq.

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

20 of your 39 stats show Pippen outside the top 10, and many of those are outside the top 15

How come all the stats you post don't support your case?... Remember when you wanted to show that Pippen rarely got outplayed, but then showed him getting outplayed by everyone, including guys like Larry Johnson and Juwan Howard?...

[Rico2016]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

Pip = Better without MJ
MJ = Worse without Pip

Interesting

[3ball]

Pip = Better without MJ
MJ = Worse without Pip

Interesting

His stats prove Pippen wasn't top 10, since most of his stats show Pippen outside the top 10... :hammerhead:...

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

Notice the part where Pippen plays * Without Jordan. He ranks even higher among and compared to other stars.

There is no doubt that Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the NBA in the 90's.

Only Jordan jockers and riders say he is not.

[3ball]

Notice the part where Pippen plays * Without Jordan. He ranks even higher among and compared to other stars.

There is no doubt that Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the NBA in the 90's.

Only Jordan jockers and riders say he is not.

At Pippen's peak, he was behind Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing

No one would even COMPARE pippen to those guys in the 90's... And in many seasons outside of his peak (90', 93, 96-98'), he was below tons of other guys... Tons..

keep in mind that from 96-98' Pippen's stats were atrocious - but he got the same treatment that kobe's defense got in the 2nd half of the his career - living off his name/ring count

and MVP is different from best player - Pippen's situation without MJ was ideal for MVP... Tbh, anyone else would've easily won MVP in the optimal situation that Pippen had..

[Round Mound]

Nobody is saying Pippen was as good as those players you mention but he certainly was right below those players as a top 10 player in the game in the 90's.

His stats without Jordan at his peak rank him very high aswell.

All none Jordan fan boys or riders knew how good Pippen was prior to 94. He was the best all around SF of the 90's

[Rico2016]

Nobody is saying Pippen was as good as those players you mention but he certainly was right below those players as a top 10 player in the game in the 90's.

His stats without Jordan at his peak rank him very high aswell.

All none Jordan fan boys or riders knew how good Pippen was prior to 94. He was the best all around SF of the 90's

How many players got top 3 in MVP votes and won 55 games or more in 1994? Let's see it:

Hakeem, 1st in MVP, 58 wins
Robinson, 2nd in MVP, 55 wins
Pippen, 3rd in MVP, 55 wins

[97 bulls]

How many players got top 3 in MVP votes and won 55 games or more in 1994? Let's see it:

Hakeem, 1st in MVP, 58 wins
Robinson, 2nd in MVP, 55 wins
Pippen, 3rd in MVP, 55 wins

And let's not forget that Pippen missed 10 games that season in which the Bulls were 4-6.

I think the Bulls win at least 58 games and tie for the best record in the NBA had he played all 82. And he more than likely wins the MVP.

[97 bulls]

At Pippen's peak, he was behind Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing

No one would even COMPARE pippen to those guys in the 90's... And in many seasons outside of his peak (90', 93, 96-98'), he was below tons of other guys... Tons..

keep in mind that from 96-98' Pippen's stats were atrocious - but he got the same treatment that kobe's defense got in the 2nd half of the his career - living off his name/ring count

and MVP is different from best player - Pippen's situation without MJ was ideal for MVP... Tbh, anyone else would've easily won MVP in the optimal situation that Pippen had..

You've been shown time and time again that people did compare Scottie Pippen to other great players of the 90s. Some of his peers are in video calling him the second best player of the 90s after your God MJ.

[3ball]

Nobody is saying Pippen was as good as those players you mention but he certainly was right below those players as a top 10 player in the game in the 90's.

His stats without Jordan at his peak rank him very high aswell.

All none Jordan fan boys or riders knew how good Pippen was prior to 94. He was the best all around SF of the 90's

94' Pippen had better impact stats than normal because he was #1 option - but the raw stats and advanced stats tell the true story

His raw production (22.0 and 5.6 apg) was less than his highs alongside MJ (21.0 and 7.0) and this sub-par raw production didn't outplay his matchup in the playoffs more than Grant/Kukoc, who had higher ws/48, aka winning contribution.

Btw, Lowry was going to win 55 this year.. Marc Gasol routinely won 55.. so did KJ and hundreds of other players... 55 wins in the regular season shouldn't be surprising for a team playing a 3-peat brand

Ultinately, 55 wins was adequate with a 3-peat system, but his playoff series vs Knicks was literally one of the worst performances ever... 21 on 40% and 3 separate chokes (sit-out game.. dumb foul game.. game 7 no-show)...

94' exposed Pippen as a far less capable #1 option than Barkley, Malone, and everyone i mentioned, plus many more guys like Clyde, Penny, Hill, Payton, Kemp and many many many many many more

[aceman]

1990's.... no one gives 2 bitd shits about Pippen or thinks he's that good

2020's.... Pippen was the #2 player in the league


It's the era of fake news and lying... Plain and simple

1990s - isiah Thomas; Pippen 2nd best player
2020 - isiah; Pippen is a bum

[ArbitraryWater]

No Pip

[light]

1990's.... no one gives 2 bitd shits about Pippen or thinks he's that good

2020's.... Pippen was the #2 player in the league

It's the era of fake news and lying... Plain and simple

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:

[BigShotBob]

Important doesn't mean anyway near as good

[Docs Orders]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:
savage

[3ball]

Pippen was a lot easier to replace than Jordan

Peak Worthy and KJ were better then Pippen and would've 3-peated with mj from 88-91'

[3ball]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:

Pippen was a fad around 95/96 but faded quickly with horrific performance in the 96' Playoffs... Krause was literally begging the sonics to take Pippen for Kemp after those Finals... Sonics refused, which is the best proof available that Pippen < Kemp at that time (still Pip's prime)

Its funny because your quotes show Krause not endorsing the idea of Pippen as #2 player, and he begs Sonics to take him soon after

[3ball]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.

[3ball]

.
MJ winning chips makes everyone think his teammates must've played great, but Pippen was completely unreliable in the playoffs:


1989.... missed Games 5 and 6 of ECF

1990.... migraine in Game 7

1991.... Pippen lost Game 3 of the Finals with his dumb foul on stumbling Vlade, until MJ hits game-tying shot and dominates OT (with Pippen fouled out)... And Pip was too weak-minded to handle the idea of guarding Magic from the outset (in his first Finals), so MJ guards him most of series... Magic is typically guarded by forwards, not off-guards

1992.... Horrible series vs Knicks, which caused the series to go 7 games... And he was starched by X-man - completely outclassed, outplayed an bullied, so MJ had to save (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif) Pippen.. Notice Pip can't look X-man in the eyes.. X-man owns him, so mj has to confront him or lose momentum and the game - all because pip is unreliable in playpffs

1993.... He produced less on this run than 14' Wade (see stats above), including 45.9% true shooting in Finals.. dominated by Dominique and Willis in 1st Round

1994.... the GOAT choke vs Knicks (sit-out game).. and a dumb-foul choke in game 5 (never foul a jumpshooter.. bball 101).. then a horrible game 7... So that's 3 chokes in 1 series... aka the GOAT choke... He also finished 4th on his team in ws/48 - so Grant, Kukoc, and BJ were outplaying their matchup by much more

1995.... 19 on 41% against Magic... These poor stats caused the loss, along with his inability to lift a finger in the clutch with MJ rusty than a mf

1996.... 15 on 34% in Finals... 15 on 33% in ECSF.. outplayed by everyone

1997.... severely outplayed by Juwan Howard in 1st Round... Embarrassing.. and forced MJ to have flu game instead of stepping up himself

1998.... 15 on 41% in Finals and got hurt for Games 5 and 6 - any other team loses the series but MJ's goat clutch saved Bulls..

[97 bulls]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:

Wooooooow!!!!!!!! I think the Scottie Pippen debate has just been ended.

[YouKnowWhatItIs]

Articles on Pippen in the ‘98 Finals:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-11-9806110398-story.html

http://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385041/what-about-pippen-for-nba-finals-mvp

[sdot_thadon]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:

Wow, thanks for this. I made this statement here before with nothing to back it up but my memory.....

[3ball]

Wow, thanks for this. I made this statement here before with nothing to back it up but my memory.....

You can search high and low for the 1 or 2 quotes out of thousands that overrate Pippen

The consensus was that Pippen was borderline top 10 or 15.. period... I was there - that was the consensus

[jlip]

You can search high and low for the 1 or 2 quotes out of thousands that overrate Pippen

The consensus was that Pippen was borderline top 10 or 15.. period... I was there - that was the consensus

You were there. :oldlol::oldlol: :facepalm

There is a reason why I rarely, if ever, respond to your posts. I really haven't done so in years if memory serves me correctly. For over half a decade now you have been making completely uninformed, inane, and inaccurate claims and statements as if you actually know what you're talking about, only to be soundly refuted with incontrovertible evidence, but sadly you are too stubborn to even realize it.

This was from nearly five years ago, and it was at that moment I realized engaging you was basically a hopeless exercise in futility.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379795-Jordan-CLEARLY-had-less-help-in-1998-Finals-than-Lebron-s-current-team&p=11482128&viewfull=1#post11482128

[aceman]

Pippen was a lot easier to replace than Jordan

Peak Worthy and KJ were better then Pippen and would've 3-peated with mj from 88-91'

Pete Myers resulted in only loss of two further.

[aceman]

You can search high and low for the 1 or 2 quotes out of thousands that overrate Pippen

The consensus was that Pippen was borderline top 10 or 15.. period... I was there - that was the consensus

Who comes up with list of top 15 back in 1996? You're making stuff up

[SouBeachTalents]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

Holy shit :oldlol: This is the death blow to 3ball. This is gonna be copy and pasted in every thread that nigguh makes

[3ball]

Who comes up with list of top 15 back in 1996? You're making stuff up

Again, no one thought Pippen was #2, despite a couple quotes out of millions

Pippen was about 10-20 during the 90"s

I have way more quotes supporting this than the couple quotes you guys found

And one of those quotes was Krause basically surprised that anyone would call Pippen #2

[bizil]

Pip's floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) was every bit as good as MJ's. So he enabled MJ to conserve more of his energy to dominate games scoring. Because Pip could defend the other team's best perimeter player AND be the Bulls primary facilitator. Before Pip came of age MJ HAD TO BE the Bulls best scorer, defender, and passer for them to compete on a high level. He was getting 32-8-8 in a season right before Pip came of age. So that's what MJ was primed to do every season pretty much IF NEEDED! Since MJ NEVER PLAYED with another alpha dog scorer in his career, it was VERY VITAL that Pip came of age. Who knows the toll MJ's body would have taken if Pippen didn't step up. Pip could be the Bulls best passer, defender, play four different positions, and chip in 20 PPG. So due to the fact that MJ could be MUCH FRESHER throughout the game, IN A SENSE he was just as important as MJ.

[tpols]

1992.... Horrible series vs Knicks, which caused the series to go 7 games... And he was starched by X-man - completely outclassed, outplayed an bullied, so MJ had to save (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif) Pippen.. Notice Pip can't look X-man in the eyes.. X-man owns him, so mj has to confront him or lose momentum and the game - all because pip is unreliable in playpffs


i feel like that dunk by MJ in that series was the inspiration for the end of space jam.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PerfumedNaiveHerring-max-1mb.gif

[tpols]

it's crazy how the knicks were able to make it so close with the bulls despite a talent disadvantage because they outsized them so much.

MJ's Bulls were a small, soft team. Cartwright, Grant, Pippen, and paxson none of them were tough guys ala oakley mason ewing xman etc.

Jordan standing up to them was basically the only reason they weren't bullied off the court.

[3ball]

Pip's floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) was every bit as good as MJ's. So he enabled MJ to conserve more of his energy to dominate games scoring. Because Pip could defend the other team's best perimeter player AND be the Bulls primary facilitator. Before Pip came of age MJ HAD TO BE the Bulls best scorer, defender, and passer for them to compete on a high level. He was getting 32-8-8 in a season right before Pip came of age. So that's what MJ was primed to do every season pretty much IF NEEDED! Since MJ NEVER PLAYED with another alpha dog scorer in his career, it was VERY VITAL that Pip came of age. Who knows the toll MJ's body would have taken if Pippen didn't step up. Pip could be the Bulls best passer, defender, play four different positions, and chip in 20 PPG. So due to the fact that MJ could be MUCH FRESHER throughout the game, IN A SENSE he was just as important as MJ.

Nothing takes more energy than scoring, and Pippen made MJ score the maximum

If MJ was tired in 1994, it was from having to score so.much

So Pippen was shit.. Worthy or KJ would've taken a MUCH bigger load off MJ

And regardless he still needed to be the goat defender at SG and get more dpoy votes than Pippen every year

[ELITEpower23]

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/anime-arts/images/2/25/Applause-o.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131225161738

Bink

[Stanley Kobrick]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:
very interesting

[Roundball_Rock]

You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

Great stuff!

There is a ton out there to refute the MJ stan myth that no one thought Pippen was an elite player back then. It is dumb they keep pushing this line as if people weren't alive then. :oldlol:

When MJ was retired Pippen was the only perimeter player in the top 5 conversation. The rest were all centers (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq) or power forwards (Malone, Barkley).

What makes their BS comical is the players they posit to push Pippen to the bottom of the top 10, to the top 15 or even lower were all clearly lesser players than Pippen in his prime. Contemporaneous press reporting, accolades back that up as do all-time lists. Reggie Miller is a prime example. Miller never made all-NBA 1st or 2nd team yet somehow was better than Pippen according to Jordan stans.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are some more receipts from back then:

In this article from 1991 the New York Times refers to Pippen as a "universally recognized superstar" and notes he was the 4th pick for the Dream Team behind MJ, Ewing, Robinson.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.htm

You have Marv Albert and Mike Fratello referring to the "two superstars" and talking about how Jordan and Pippen struggling is why there is a Game 7 in 1992. Go to the 1:25 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqGRf6AMGc


There is even one school of thought that says although Jordan has all but clinched his sixth straight scoring title, Scottie Pippen, heading for career highs in average points (21.1 at end of week), rebounds (7.7) and assists (7.0), has been more valuable than Jordan.

First team: Karl Malone and Pippen, forward; Robinson, center; Jordan and the Warriors' Jim Hardaway, guard. (The Trail Blazers' Clyde Drexler could have been the other backcourtman, but the purist vision of basketball look hold and dictated that a point man be paired with Jordan.)


https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/04/20/the-nba

Hubie Brown talking about Pippen being a MVP candidate along with Hakeem, David Robinson in the opening to this 1994 playoff game. 10 second mark .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw

Let's go to 1995. "Two of the NBA's biggest stars go head to head as Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.." for the intro open at the top of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMmEo8UfvQ

Time for 1996. This is a segment where Bob Ryan is saying Pippen=Jordan during a Sunday morning show. Go to the end of the video. Here is the exchange:

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation

Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

[Roundball_Rock]

Also from 1996, why would Dream Team III players most want to be Pippen, a scrub?



If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

Matt Guokas (1996): “Scottie Pippen, the best all-around player in the game.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQvk...e=channel_page


The Bulls don't need to convince anyone of that. At times their games are more performance than competition, with Jordan and Pippen taking turns doing spectacular solos. "No one is even challenging them," says Adubato. "Pippen and Jordan are like they're in a playground enjoying themselves." Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

https://vault.si.com/vault/1996/01/29/toy-story-the-bulls-are-making-childs-play-of-foes-as-they-shoot-for-a-record-70-wins

How about 1997 action? Sports Illustrated. The title?
EXTENDING HIMSELF NOT EVEN YOU KNOW WHO HAS BEEN MORE VALUABLE THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN IN THE BULLS' POSTSEASON RUN

Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that he--as much as Jordan--has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the postseason.

Sports Illustrated: Pippen is the second best player in the league (1997). I don't have the link but you can look for it in 97' SI articles.

Let's get to 1998. Sports Illustrated again:


Pippen's absence, however, has shown how vital a cog he is in
the Bulls' machine. While Pippen has long been recognized as one
of the game's top players, his accolades customarily have come
with an addendum: He couldn't have done it without Jordan. What
hadn't occurred to many observers was that perhaps Jordan
couldn't have done it without Pippen.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/11/2...-just-to-score

[Roundball_Rock]

1992 SI article:


The numbers do not lie. Scottie Pippen has become a very, very good player. (Very close—heart, be still—to Jordan.)

"You think about it, Scottie Pippen might just be the second-best all-around player in the league," Bill Walton, the broadcaster and former NBA All-Star, says. "Who's better, outside of Michael? Who does more things? Karl Malone, maybe. Maybe not."

Same article:


The old line about Jordan and the Jordanaires has been forgotten forever. Pippen now sings almost as many lead vocals as the headliner.

This was his statement about how well he could play. Second-best player in the game? Maybe. This was his emergence.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight


His importance in the Chicago operation was never
greater. With Jordan nagged by gambling controversies off the court
and hounded into some bad shooting nights on it, Pippen was a
reliable antidote. Still the second banana to Jordan, he nevertheless moved closer to equal billing. With just about any other team in the NBA, he would be the marquee player.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/07/07/rise-and-shine-thats-precisely-what-scottie-pippen-has-done-in-soaring-above-the-criticism-that-he-isnt-tough-enough-for-the-nba

1993 SI:


The New York series had been, as much as anything, Pippen's coronation as a premier player. Had an MVP for the series been selected, the suddenly consistent Pippen would've probably gotten the nod over Jordan, who alternated streaks of brilliance with long periods of woeful shooting.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/07/07/that-championship-season-3-the-suns-were-only-the-last-of-many-challenges-the-bulls-met-in-1992-93

https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/02/28/the-nba


Pippen is central to the delicate balance of Chicago's triangle
offense. He's the primary ball handler and an unselfish
distributor who often passes up his own scoring opportunity to
create a better one for a teammate. Moreover, as a perimeter threat, he makes opponents pay for double-teaming Jordan.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/11/24/hurry-back-lacking-injured-catalyst-scottie-pippen-and-a-lot-of-their-old-fire-the-bulls-have-been-struggling-just-to-score

[Roundball_Rock]

Nothing takes more energy than scoring, and Pippen made MJ score the maximum

Jordan brought down his teammates' scoring. It isn't surprising: he took all the shots. Krause understood that and built a team around him of defensive-oriented players.

Pippen scarified stats and scoring for the good of the team and to win (as noted earlier):


Pippen is central to the delicate balance of Chicago's triangle
offense. He's the primary ball handler and an unselfish distributor who often passes up his own scoring opportunity to create a better one for a teammate. Moreover, as a perimeter threat, he makes opponents pay for double-teaming Jordan.

This is why the Bulls offense suffered more without Pippen than it did when Jordan retired. Pippen made the offense work; Jordan scored for himself.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/11/24/hurry-back-lacking-injured-catalyst-scottie-pippen-and-a-lot-of-their-old-fire-the-bulls-have-been-struggling-just-to-score


Worthy or KJ would've taken a MUCH bigger load off MJ

Fact check:

Prime Worthy PPG (86'-92'): 20.3
Prime Pippen PPG (91'-98'): 20.0
Prime KJ PPG (89'-97'): 19.8

Worthy as #1 option in prime (92'): 19.9 (Lakers go from 58 wins w/Magic to 43 without Magic)
Pippen as #1 option (94', most of 95'): 22.0 (Bulls go from 57 wins w/MJ to 58 win pace when Pippen played)

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7, Johnson 5, Worthy 2
All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Worthy/Johnson 0

It is interesting 2 of Pippen's 3 first teams came when MJ wasn't around. His accolades would be even better if he wasn't overshadowed by MJ for nearly his entire prime.

[Roundball_Rock]

How about MJ stans actually present evidence or simply stop spewing easily disproven BS? :lol


At Pippen's peak, he was behind Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing

No one would even COMPARE pippen to those guys in the 90's.


Malone and Barkley were forwards so we can use all-NBA voting as a means to compare perceptions of them with Pippen during his peak.

1994 all-NBA: Pippen/Malone 1st team; Barkley/Kemp 2nd team
1995 all-NBA: Pippen/Malone 1st team; Barkley/Kemp 2nd team
1996 all-NBA: Pippen/Malone 1st team; Hill/Kemp 2nd team (Barkley 3rd)

Barkley was behind Pippen every year after 1993; Malone 2 of 3 years from 1994-1996. Using 3ball and his band of MJ stans' logic, Malone must not have been considered top 5 those years since Pippen>Malone during that time.

Raw vote totals for the first team players:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Malone wasn't even close to him and neither was Barkley, who was second team.

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

Pippen ahead of Malone again.

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

Scottie may never have been a top 5 player but if he wasn't he sure had a lot of people fooled at the time.

[Soundwave]

Pippen was not better than Shaq, Robinson, or Hakeem in 1994. He was not really better than Barkley, Ewing, or Malone either.

He was a good player but in no season was he ever a top 3 player in the NBA, let alone "second best player".

That's a whipped up narrative that comes with being on a glamour franchise. Put David Robinson on the Bulls next to Jordan and everyone would be riding his nut sack as the best center since Wilt, maybe the best center ever because he would suddenly have 6-8 rings, with a couple of DPOYs.

The Bulls were the no.1 defence in the NBA in 97-98 even without Scottie Pippen and that's with a fairly old Jordan (34/35 years old).

[ELITEpower23]

Here are some more receipts from back then:

In this article from 1991 the New York Times refers to Pippen as a "universally recognized superstar" and notes he was the 4th pick for the Dream Team behind MJ, Ewing, Robinson.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.htm

You have Marv Albert and Mike Fratello referring to the "two superstars" and talking about how Jordan and Pippen struggling is why there is a Game 7 in 1992. Go to the 1:25 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqGRf6AMGc



https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/04/20/the-nba

Hubie Brown talking about Pippen being a MVP candidate along with Hakeem, David Robinson in the opening to this 1994 playoff game. 10 second mark .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw

Let's go to 1995. "Two of the NBA's biggest stars go head to head as Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.." for the intro open at the top of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMmEo8UfvQ

Time for 1996. This is a segment where Bob Ryan is saying Pippen=Jordan during a Sunday morning show. Go to the end of the video. Here is the exchange:

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation

Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

Roundball bringing the HEAT

No one is touching this one.

[3ball]

Roundball bringing the HEAT

No one is touching this one.

Again, a couple quotes doesn't offset thousands of other quotes saying he was weak

Roundball is finding exceptions to the rule, thus proving the rule

Posting quotes is always a poor argument because by definition, it's one-offs

But it's fun seeing him scramble to unearth the exceptions to the rule that Pippen was weak - completely unreliable in the playpffs and clutch

[Round Mound]

Pippen sacrificed stats in order to win. His stats would look like that 93-94 season had he played a 1st option in his prime (1990-1998).

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball bringing the HEAT

No one is touching this one.

Notice we aren't seeing any corresponding evidence being presented by the other side? Just BSing about Pippen being top 15, etc. They can't present evidence that doesn't exist but they lack the intellectual integrity to stop fabricating.

The Malone thing is revealing. Malone perennially was top 5 in the 90's and Pippen was beating him in all-NBA in 94' and 96' (and probably would have in 95' if MJ's return didn't tank his numbers late in the season). To believe Pippen wasn't considered top 5 at any point you also have to believe Malone wasn't during that same time frame, which is crazy.


Pippen sacrificed stats in order to win. His stats would look like that 93-94 season had he played a 1st option in his prime (1990-1998).

Which would be better than any perimeter player not named MJ, most likely, in the 90's. I guess you could argue Wilkins but Pippen would outproduce him in everything but scoring. Drexler scoring 1 more PPG wouldn't offset Pippen's superiority on defense, rebounding (playmaking a wash).

The irony is Pippen sacrificed stats to win and MJ stans are attacking him for doing that decades later--while trumpeting the rings MJ won in part because of Pippen. Pippen could have changed like Kobe did with Shaq or just left altogether like Irving did with LeBron.

[Round Mound]

Notice we aren't seeing any corresponding evidence being presented by the other side? Just BSing about Pippen being top 15, etc. They can't present evidence that doesn't exist but they lack the intellectual integrity to stop fabricating.

The Malone thing is revealing. Malone perennially was top 5 in the 90's and Pippen was beating him in all-NBA in 94' and 96' (and probably would have in 95' if MJ's return didn't tank his numbers late in the season). To believe Pippen wasn't considered top 5 at any point you also have to believe Malone wasn't during that same time frame, which is crazy.



Which would be better than any perimeter player not named MJ, most likely, in the 90's. I guess you could argue Wilkins but Pippen would outproduce him in everything but scoring. Drexler scoring 1 more PPG wouldn't offset Pippen's superiority on defense, rebounding (playmaking a wash).

The irony is Pippen sacrificed stats to win and MJ stans are attacking him for doing that decades later--while trumpeting the rings MJ won in part because of Pippen. Pippen could have changed like Kobe did with Shaq or just left altogether like Irving did with LeBron.

:applause:

[ELITEpower23]

Notice we aren't seeing any corresponding evidence being presented by the other side? Just BSing about Pippen being top 15, etc. They can't present evidence that doesn't exist but they lack the intellectual integrity to stop fabricating.

The Malone thing is revealing. Malone perennially was top 5 in the 90's and Pippen was beating him in all-NBA in 94' and 96' (and probably would have in 95' if MJ's return didn't tank his numbers late in the season). To believe Pippen wasn't considered top 5 at any point you also have to believe Malone wasn't during that same time frame, which is crazy.



Which would be better than any perimeter player not named MJ, most likely, in the 90's. I guess you could argue Wilkins but Pippen would outproduce him in everything but scoring. Drexler scoring 1 more PPG wouldn't offset Pippen's superiority on defense, rebounding (playmaking a wash).

The irony is Pippen sacrificed stats to win and MJ stans are attacking him for doing that decades later--while trumpeting the rings MJ won in part because of Pippen. Pippen could have changed like Kobe did with Shaq or just left altogether like Irving did with LeBron.

Roundball = He's heating up!

[3ball]

Notice we aren't seeing any corresponding evidence being presented by the other side? Just BSing about Pippen being top 15, etc. They can't present evidence that doesn't exist but they lack the intellectual integrity to stop fabricating.

The Malone thing is revealing. Malone perennially was top 5 in the 90's and Pippen was beating him in all-NBA in 94' and 96' (and probably would have in 95' if MJ's return didn't tank his numbers late in the season). To believe Pippen wasn't considered top 5 at any point you also have to believe Malone wasn't during that same time frame, which is crazy.

The media wondered if Penny was BETTER than jordan - see the bottom right:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-03-2020/51eHs6.gif


Now would it be fair of me to use stuff like this to make a point about Penny vs Jordan and act like it was close?... The media is like a leaf in the wind and using them is inaccurate.. These are one-offs about Penny that vary from the consensus, just like your one-off quotes about Pip

And Pippen has more quotes saying he's a 10-20 player (or even less) than top 5

Btw, even though players follow an etiquette and generally don't trash other players in the press (so you'll always find more positive quotes than negative about any player), Pippen might actually have just as many quotes trashing him... And I'm not talking about politically-correct bullshit-speak like the fake shit you found (and i did above with Penny) - I'm talking guys GOING IN on Pippen.. saying he was carried and being REAL about Pippen.. :eek:...

So you can post your political-speak one-offs, and ill go with the real shit and consensus on Pippen - he was carried - the playoff and clutch stats prove this, along with the historical record showing multiple chokes in virtually every playoff run

[ELITEpower23]

94 Pip won 55 games and a MVP candidate

[3ball]

94 Pip won 55 games and a MVP candidate

Payton was #3 for MVP in 1998 and won 55+ a lot... Based on your criteria, Payton = Pippen.

So why is Pippen ranked ahead of him?.. didn't Payton also outplay Pippen in 96'?

TONS of guys have a good year and get 3rd in MVP voting... Tim Hardaway was 3rd in 97'

You guys are grasping at straws here

[ELITEpower23]

Payton was #3 for MVP in 1998 and won 55+ a lot... Based on your criteria, Payton = Pippen.

So why is Pippen ranked ahead of him?.. didn't Payton also outplay Pippen in 96'?

TONS of guys have a good year and get 3rd in MVP voting... Tim Hardaway was 3rd in 97'

You guys are grasping at straws here

Payton in 1998 had Vin Baker and Detlef Shrempf
Pippen in 1994 had Horrace Grant

Tim Hardway was not 3rd in MVP voting in 1997, but you always lie so we just have to fact check you and you get wrecked easy.

I will give you a second chance to redeem yourself.

[3ball]

Payton in 1998 had Vin Baker and Detlef Shrempf
Pippen in 1994 had Horrace Grant

Tim Hardway was not 3rd in MVP voting in 1997, but you always lie so we just have to fact check you and you get wrecked easy.

I will give you a second chance to redeem yourself.

My point all along was that the 3-peat system won 55, not the talent.... and it looks like you agree by saying grant wasn't a viable 2nd option and no real 3rd option either

So you make my point - Pippen had a shit cast in 1994 and he was the main dude, aka optimal situation for MVP

he should've won it going away but everyone knew he wasn't nearly dominant enough for MVP

Otoh, Hardaway and Payton won 55+ via supporting talent, and therefore had a less optimal situation for MVP... Yet they still matched Pippen (3rd and 4th for Payton/Hardaway)

[ELITEpower23]

My point all along was that the 3-peat system won 55, not the talent.... and it looks like you agree by saying grant wasn't a viable 2nd option and no real 3rd option either

So you make my point - Pippen had a shit cast in 1994 and he was the main dude, aka optimal situation for MVP

he should've won it going away but everyone knew he wasn't nearly dominant enough for MVP

Otoh, Hardaway and Payton won 55+ via supporting talent, and therefore had a less optimal situation for MVP... Yet they still matched Pippen (3rd and 4th for Payton/Hardaway)

Why did you lie about Hardaway being 3rd in MVP in 1997? Pippen won 55 games with the same cast as MJ, but he took MJ off the team. Let that sink in, he took the best player on the team off and still won 55 games. MJ was not needed, exchange him for Carmello Anthony and Bulls win in 1994, yes or no?

[goozeman]

Pippen played on the Bulls for almost two full years without Jordan, not one. The Bulls won a sub-50 game pace (48 adjust without Jordan) while playing the bottom five schedule in the league both years. Second year they had the second easiest schedule in the league. Atlanta won the division in 93-94 and got knocked out in the 2nd round by a 47 win Pacers team to give you an idea. In 94-95 the Bulls were in an absolute meltdown, and Pippen actually demanded a trade. All in all, the Pippen-led Bulls experiment almost ended in disaster.

[3ball]

Why did you lie about Hardaway being 3rd in MVP in 1997? Pippen won 55 games with the same cast as MJ, but he took MJ off the team. Let that sink in, he took the best player on the team off and still won 55 games. MJ was not needed, exchange him for Carmello Anthony and Bulls win in 1994, yes or no?

Only MJ could win with those bulls teams because of the possession usage and volume that those teams required from MJ... No one else ever had that burden... It's just a statistical fact

And the Bulls were a 3-peat team that fell to 2nd round team - that reflects well on MJ, no?... Otoh, lebron's teams were weak and got demolished when he left... So it's apples and oranges..

Pippen's entire career was lebron in 2011 Finals - 18/7/7 and disappearing in the clutch - MJ won 6 rings with 2011 Lebron - Wade couldn't win with Pippen in those 11' Finals, but he's not as good as MJ... So it makes sense

[goozeman]

Pippen sacrificed stats in order to win. His stats would look like that 93-94 season had he played a 1st option in his prime (1990-1998).

His numbers didn't change demonstrably. He shot the ball at a 22.1/100 pace in 93 and 24.2/100 pace in 94. In 1995 his shooting dropped to 22.8/100, which was virtually the same or less volume (actually shot the ball more in both 97 and 98) than any season than during the second threepete. Pippen wasn't a guy somehow toiling away in the shadows either. He was the 15th highest volume shooter in the league from 90 to 98. His numbers plummeted when he left the Bulls, however. Pippen was a high floor low ceiling player offensively, and he was helped tremendously by playing his entire career with same coach and in the same system. Once he left the Bulls the flaws in his offensive game started to get exposed, i.e. he was no longer allowed to cherry pick off the defensive attention Jordan generated.

[ELITEpower23]

Only MJ could win with those bulls teams because of the possession usage and volume that those teams required from MJ... No one else ever had that burden... It's just a statistical fact

And the Bulls were a 3-peat team that fell to 2nd round team - that reflects well on MJ, no?... Otoh, lebron's teams were weak and got demolished when he left... So it's apples and oranges..

Pippen's entire career was lebron in 2011 Finals - 18/7/7 and disappearing in the clutch - MJ won 6 rings with 2011 Lebron - Wade couldn't win with Pippen in those 11' Finals, but he's not as good as MJ... So it makes sense

You're wondering why MJ scored so many of the Bulls points by shooting 40% of the shots? Not really that bright are ya?

[3ball]

You're wondering why MJ so many of the Bulls points by shooting 40% of the shots? Not really that bright are ya?

He used 33-40% of the possessions (goat usage) at the best efficiency per possession that any scoring wing ever had

Only he could handle the burden

[ELITEpower23]

33-40% of the possessions (goat usage) at the best efficiency any scoring wing ever had

Takes 40% of the shots
Scores 40% of the points
SCIENCE

[3ball]

Takes 40% of the shots
Scores 40% of the points
SCIENCE

No one else could do that

If they took 40% of the shots, they wouldn't shoot anywhere nearly as good as mj, with way more turnovers, hence less overall efficiency per possession

MJ had a 118 ortg (efficiency per possession) spread over 36% of possessions - no one is f*cking with that

Btw, Pippen's entire career was lebron in 2011 Finals - 18/7/7 and disappearing in the clutch... so MJ won 6 rings with 2011 Lebron.. otoh, Wade couldn't win with Pippen in those 11' Finals, but he's not as good as MJ... So it makes sense

[ELITEpower23]

No one else could do that

If they took 40% of the shots, they wouldn't shoot anywhere nearly as good as mj, with way more turnovers, hence less overall efficiency per possession

MJ had a 118 ortg (efficiency per possession) spread over 36% of possessions - no one is f*cking with that

Btw, Pippen's entire career was lebron in 2011 Finals - 18/7/7 and disappearing in the clutch... so MJ won 6 rings with 2011 Lebron.. otoh, Wade couldn't win with Pippen in those 11' Finals, but he's not as good as MJ... So it makes sense

And who were his greatest perimeter defenders? I keep seeing John Starks and Jeff Hornacek and Craig Ehlo guarding him. That is not impressive. Sure the 90s had some decent rim protectors, but the perimeter defense was putrid.

[3ball]

And who were his greatest perimeter defenders? I keep seeing John Starks and Jeff Hornacek and Craig Ehlo guarding him. That is not impressive. Sure the 90s had some decent rim protectors, but the perimeter defense was putrid.

^^^ all those guys you mentioned are much better defenders than today's best 2-guards, aka Harden... And is Beal a good defender? Seems like he isn't anything special.. another Mitch Richmond... Drexler destroys them all

[Duncan21formvp]

Need to win league or finals mvp or hit the game winner in game 7 or game 6 if down in the series.

[ELITEpower23]

^^^ all those guys you mentioned are much better defenders than today's best 2-guards, aka Harden... And is Beal a good defender? Seems like he isn't anything special.. another Mitch Richmond... Drexler destroys them all

First off no, second off lebron isn't being guarded by Beal and Harden? I will give you a second change to make a better response to:

And who were his greatest perimeter defenders? I keep seeing John Starks and Jeff Hornacek and Craig Ehlo guarding him. That is not impressive. Sure the 90s had some decent rim protectors, but the perimeter defense was putrid.

[Bawkish]

Where was Pip during 94-95 season before MJ returned?

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ‘s team did just fine without him shooting all those shots.

They often increased or got leads with him on the bench or refering to a more passive role.

[aceman]

Where was Pip during 94-95 season before MJ returned?

He was leading team in every category

[RogueBorg]

Sure the 90s had some decent rim protectors

Decent?

The 90's was the best era of rim protectors ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans repeatedly say Pippen is overrated now, that he wasn't considered an elite player or superstar back then, etc. We have posted article after article, YouTube clips to this effect. Several comparing him favorably to MJ or Malone. Where are the articles saying Pippen was not top 10 or not top 15 as MJ stans always claim?


Payton was #3 for MVP in 1998 and won 55+ a lot... Based on your criteria, Payton = Pippen.

So why is Pippen ranked ahead of him?.. didn't Payton also outplay Pippen in 96'?

TONS of guys have a good year and get 3rd in MVP voting... Tim Hardaway was 3rd in 97'

This is naive. Miami and Seattle did not lose their best player weeks before the season.

As to why Pippen is ranked higher than Payton, it is simple: he was a better player than Payton as people understood then and forever since, aside from the MJ stan circle jerk.


Pippen played on the Bulls for almost two full years without Jordan, not one. The Bulls won a sub-50 game pace (48 adjust without Jordan)

A lot of BS in this post so let's break it down.

The Bulls won on a 58 win pace with Pippen in 94' (4-6 without him, a 33 win pace) and a 63 win both with both Pippen and Grant. In 95', after losing Grant (which had a greater impact than losing MJ) they were on a 46 win pace with Pippen (MJ stans like to count games they lost without Pippen as Pippen losses). They had another loss to a 17 win team because Pippen was ejected in the 2nd quarter. So in full games he played they were 34-28. That isn't great but wasn't that far behind the Pacers.

As far as SRS, they were 11th in 94' (5th when healthy) and 6th in 95' (2nd in the East) without MJ.


Atlanta won the division in 93-94 and got knocked out in the 2nd round by a 47 win

They traded away their best player and superstar at the all-star break. :oldlol: Atlanta had a 59 win pace before the Wilkins trade; 53 win pace afterwards. They weren't the same team with Danny Manning "replacing" Wilkins.

That 47 win team took New York to 7 games in the ECF BTW--and won 52 and got to Game 7 of the ECF the following year, for some context.


In 94-95 the Bulls were in an absolute meltdown

They were playing their best basketball of the season before MJ came back. Their record was catching up to their SRS after the all-star break.


You're wondering why MJ scored so many of the Bulls points by shooting 40% of the shots? Not really that bright are ya?

He did the same stuff on the Dream Team and all-star teams. :roll:


Where was Pip during 94-95 season before MJ returned?

On track for first team all-NBA, top 5 in MVP, 10th in scoring, top 20 in rebounding and assists, first team all-D, etc. In other words, having arguably his best season. His numbers tanked when MJ showed up, but MJ did that to everyone.

[RogueBorg]

MJ stans repeatedly say Pippen is overrated now.

You've convinced me, Pippen is one of the greats of all-time, he's better than LeBron

[2ball]

MJ’s scoring load was a requirement of the bulls system. You can skate by in the regular season many teams have done it like the modern Celtics. Otoh when it comes to playoffs you need a player to burden the scoring load on efficient shooting when possessions tighten up.

[Roundball_Rock]

A lot of names get thrown out there so here is a quick fact check on Pippen and other perimeter players of that era.

All-NBA 1st Team Selections for Pippen's Contemporary Perimeter Players

Pippen 3
Payton/Stockton 2
Drexler/Wilkins/Mullin/Price/Hardaway 1
Miller/Worthy/K. Johnson/Dumars/Richmond 0

bUT WHy IS PIPPun CONsidered betteR now!!!!!! Nobody thought he was good back then!

The irony is MJ deflated Pippen's accolades. It is no coincidence 2 of those 3 teams came with MJ retired. It also isn't a coincidence he was a MVP candidate his one full prime season without MJ (implying he would be a perennial MVP candidate without MJ, which guys like Payton were not--he was a MVP candidate once during a 9 year prime as a first option).


MJ’s scoring load was a requirement of the bulls system.

Just like the Dream Team and all-star teams, right? Jordan was going to take a ton of shots no matter what.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rockball makes a great case for Pippen > Lebron

Not bad. Might have to take Lebron down a peg, and replace him with Pip. :applause:

[3ball]

.


The media wondered if Penny was BETTER than jordan - see the bottom right:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-03-2020/51eHs6.gif


Now would it be fair of me to use stuff like this to make a point about Penny vs Jordan and act like it was close?... The media is like a leaf in the wind and using them is inaccurate.. These are one-offs about Penny that vary from the consensus, just like Roundball's one-off quotes about Pip

And Pippen has more quotes saying he's a 10-20 player (or even less) than top 5

Btw, even though players follow an etiquette and generally don't trash other players in the press (so you'll always find more positive quotes than negative about any player), Pippen might actually have just as many quotes trashing him... And I'm not talking about politically-correct bullshit-speak like the fake shit Roundball found (and I found above with Penny) - I'm talking guys GOING IN on Pippen.. saying he was carried and being REAL about Pippen.. :eek:...

So you can post your political-speak one-offs, and ill go with the real shit and consensus on Pippen - he was carried - the playoff and clutch stats prove this, along with the historical record showing multiple chokes in virtually every playoff run

[3ball]

]The entire point is that Pippen's accolades are undeserved and he was not considered better than guys he finished ahead of - the rings inflated his inferior stats and play

There's never been a multiple-time champion 2nd option that played worse

The playoff stats, clutch stats, and his reputation for choking in every playoff run tell the story - aka facts

[RogueBorg]

Rockball makes a great case for Pippen > Lebron

Not bad. Might have to take Lebron down a peg, and replace him with Pip. :applause:

That's what I'm doing.

SF All-Time rankings
1. Bird
2. Pippen
3. LeBron

[bizil]

His numbers didn't change demonstrably. He shot the ball at a 22.1/100 pace in 93 and 24.2/100 pace in 94. In 1995 his shooting dropped to 22.8/100, which was virtually the same or less volume (actually shot the ball more in both 97 and 98) than any season than during the second threepete. Pippen wasn't a guy somehow toiling away in the shadows either. He was the 15th highest volume shooter in the league from 90 to 98. His numbers plummeted when he left the Bulls, however. Pippen was a high floor low ceiling player offensively, and he was helped tremendously by playing his entire career with same coach and in the same system. Once he left the Bulls the flaws in his offensive game started to get exposed, i.e. he was no longer allowed to cherry pick off the defensive attention Jordan generated.


EXACTLY!! When MJ left for baseball, the jury WAS STILL out on Pip's max scoring potential BEFORE the season started. ONCE that season was over, it was clear that Pip WASN'T an alpha dog caliber scorer. He wasn't a guy who could up the ante scoring in such a way that he TOTALLY dominated defenses consistently. Some pass first guys like Magic and Isiah averaged around the same PPG as Pip in many years. BUT those guys were true PG's. And the difference is those guys had a stage presence WHERE U KNEW they were alpha dog scorers.

It's TOTALLY DIFFERENT having to be the #1 focus of defense. When u play with the GOAT, Pip had the luxury of picking his spots of when to score. When he was in the that #1 spot, he simply didn't have the alpha dog qualities of the great scorers.

The ULTIMATE perimeter players are guys who are alpha dog scorers AND have the great all around ability. Pip NEVER had the formula. IF HE DID, he would be a top 15 GOAT guy. BECAUSE he has six rings and redefined the SF position. Was the intial blueprint of the modern day point forward. Reason why he's not top 15 GOAT is because EVERYBODY KNOWS Pip was a guy who couldn't carry the offensive load.

And he didn't have the solo accolades or amount of rings like Bill Russell to be a top 15 GOAT guy. Russ wasn't an alpha dog scorer either. BUT his MVPS and 11 rings were so epic he's a Mt. Rushmore guy. Russ is the exception. If u gave Bron six rings, MANY MORE PEOPLE would see him as the GOAT flat out. If u gave Barkley or Malone six rings, either would be the GOAT PF flat out. KD would be a top 10 GOAT right now with six rings. So my point is Pip was great and all. BUT there are LEVELS to this shit!!

[Roundball_Rock]

ONCE that season was over, it was clear that Pip WASN'T an alpha dog caliber scorer.

Perhaps--but what I see on ISH is people rip Pippen's scoring and then in the next thread--and sometimes even the same thread--hype people who scored the same or less. My issue is the hypocrisy (of others, not you). Personally I agree with what you are saying that he wasn't a great scorer and if he was he would have been top 15 (so KD with better defense) and not top 20-30 like he is. For reference, here is what 90's perimeter stars scored:

Prime Scoring for 90's Perimeter Stars

Wilkins 86’-93’: 28.3 (31.4% usage)
Miller 90’-00’: 20.8 (23.2% usage)
Payton 94’-02’: 20.9 (25.4% usage)
Price 89’-94’: 18.2 (23.2% usage)
Hill 95’-00’: 21.6 (27.6% usage)
T. Hardaway 91’-98’: 20.3 (24.9% usage)
Penny 95’-97’: 21.1 (24.9% usage)
Penny 97’: 20.5 (25.7% usage) as #1 option
Pippen 91’-98’: 20.0 (24.6% usage)
Pippen 94’: 22.0 (27.1% usage) as #1 option
Stockton 89’-97’: 15.7 (19.5% usage)
K. Johnson 89’-97’: 19.8 (23.3% usage)
Drexler 88’-95’: 23.3 (26.6% usage)
Jordan 87’-96’: 32.7 (33.8% usage)

So Pippen's average is comparable to basically everybody here except MJ, Nique, and Drexler on the high end and Stockton, Price on the low end. Everybody else is in a tight 19.8-21.6 PPG range.

As a #1 option he exceeded everybody on this list except MJ, Nique, Drexler--and the gap as #1 options with Drexler was a mere 1 PPG. Note that Pippen's scoring went up; Penny's went down as #1 options. The difference is Pippen became more efficient as a #1 while Penny's efficiency fell dramatically as a #1.

It is a myth that perimeter stars were scoring a ton back then. MJ, Wilkins were exceptions. The rules were different--all these guys would score more in today's game.


And Pippen has more quotes saying he's a 10-20 player (or even less) than top 5

Let's see them. Thanks in advance. :cheers: From what I have seen you won't find that outside of 90' and 91' when he was emerging and some people didn't recognize how good he was. By 92' everybody knew he was elite.


Now would it be fair of me to use stuff like this to make a point about Penny vs Jordan and act like it was close?

The point isn't that they were equal--the takeaway is Penny was considered a superstar worth discussing in comparison to MJ. That speaks volumes. You won't find articles comparing Miller or Payton or Kevin Johnson to MJ, for example.


The entire point is that Pippen's accolades are undeserved and he was not considered better than guys he finished ahead

The facts, as shown voluminously here, are 1) Pippen was considered better than those players then 2) Pippen was considered better than those players right after they all retired 3) Pippen is considered better than those players two decades removed from their playing days.

It is only MJ stans' echo chamber that disagrees with this consensus. To be fair, I get it. You guys are insecure and rattled by LeBron and somehow think diminishing Pippen helps MJ. Moreover, you have a routine circle jerk going. Every Pippen thread consists of MJ stans' having a feedback loop reinforcing their crazy views. You forget that MJ stans are a minority of the world when you are talking among yourselves all the time. :lol

[3ball]

Perhaps--but what I see on ISH is people rip Pippen's scoring and then in the next thread--and sometimes even the same thread--hype people who scored the same or less. My issue is the hypocrisy (of others, not you). Personally I agree with what you are saying that he wasn't a great scorer and if he was he would have been top 15 (so KD with better defense) and not top 20-30 like he is. For reference, here is what 90's perimeter stars scored:

Prime Scoring for 90's Perimeter Stars

Wilkins 86’-93’: 28.3 (31.4% usage)
Miller 90’-00’: 20.8 (23.2% usage)
Payton 94’-02’: 20.9 (25.4% usage)
Price 89’-94’: 18.2 (23.2% usage)
Hill 95’-00’: 21.6 (27.6% usage)
T. Hardaway 91’-98’: 20.3 (24.9% usage)
Penny 95’-97’: 21.1 (24.9% usage)
Penny 97’: 20.5 (25.7% usage) as #1 option
Pippen 91’-98’: 20.0 (24.6% usage)
Pippen 94’: 22.0 (27.1% usage) as #1 option
Stockton 89’-97’: 15.7 (19.5% usage)
K. Johnson 89’-97’: 19.8 (23.3% usage)
Drexler 88’-95’: 23.3 (26.6% usage)
Jordan 87’-96’: 32.7 (33.8% usage)

So Pippen's average is comparable to basically everybody here except MJ, Nique, and Drexler. As a #1 option he exceeded everybody on this list except MJ, Nique, Drexler--and the gap as #1 options with Drexler was a mere 1 PPG.

It is a myth that perimeter stars were scoring a ton back then. MJ, Wilkins were exceptions.



Let's see them. Thanks in advance. :lol



The point isn't that they were equal--the takeaway is Penny was considered a superstar worth discussing in comparison to MJ. That speaks volumes. You won't find articles comparing Miller or Payton or Kevin Johnson to MJ, for example.



The facts, as shown voluminously here, are 1) Pippen was considered better than those players then 2) Pippen was considered better than those players right after they all retired 3) Pippen is considered better than those players two decades removed from their playing days.

It is only MJ stans' echo chamber that disagrees with this consensus. To be fair, I get it. You guys are insecure and rattled and somehow think diminishing Pippen helps MJ. Moreover, you have a routine circle jerk going. Every Pippen thread consists of MJ stans' having a feedback loop reinforcing their crazy views. You forgot that MJ stans are a minority of the world.

Most of those guys were equal or better than Pippen but simply didn't have rings from playing with MJ

Pippen's 3-peats inflate him.... But his actual performance tells the story... aka completely unreliable in the playoffs... Didn't lift a finger in the clutch - the worst clutch star ever, easily... He only chokes in tight games

And everyone saying he was carried... 15 different series with 15-16 ppg on 33-40%... MJ had to win with this crap from his 2nd option

[3ball]

1994 Playoffs

Pippen was 4th on his team in WS/48.... Only 0.140... behind grant, Kukoc, BJ... Pippen was literally horrible in those Playoffs... And 95'... And 96-98'

Infact, his production in 93' Playoffs was worse than 14' Wade and he shot 45.9% true shooting in the Finals...so Pippen was horrible in the playoffs from 1993-2002

One of the most overrated players ever

[RogueBorg]

One of the most overrated players ever

There's a 50-year old guy here at work, big Kobe fan, just walked through our office, I asked him "Rob, what did you think of Scottie Pippen?"

His response was "OVERRATED"

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, you have nothing. Thanks for playing, though. :cheers:

[CeltsGarlic]

BRUH "Coach" Nick can suck a mean one. Basic ass observations, looking like twitter personified

[Roundball_Rock]

BRUH "Coach" Nick can suck a mean one. Basic ass observations, looking like twitter personified

How about Coach Phil? This is what he reportedly believes (from a guy who covered the Bulls in the 90's for a Chicago paper and wrote a book on the team):


Telander: Jackson Thought Pippen More Valuable, Team Leader

Based on a statement by Rick Tellander, who worked for the Chicago Sun-Times and covered the Bulls for years, Coach Jackson himself occasionally hinted that Pippen was apparently more valuable than Jordan.

According to Tellander, Jackson’s statements suggested that Jordan was the biggest star in the team but it was actually Pippen who ran the team, Basketball Network reported.

“Phil Jackson, at times has said that Pippen is the team’s most valuable player. Where Jordan is the diamond pendant at the base of the gleaming necklace, Pippen is the thread running through the emeralds, pearls, and lesser stones that compose the whole,” Tellander stated.

Tellander even added that Pippen didn’t only imply a solid defensive approach, but that he was also the key factor in Jackson’s trademark “triangle offense.”

“He’s the glue that holds the Bulls’ triangle offense together, its Doberman defense in place. He’s the facilitator, a point forward who can bring the ball up the court, penetrate, shoot, rebound, hit open teammates, and guard anyone against point guards to power forwards. But most of all, he can play team ball,” Tellander added.


https://www.ibtimes.com/nba-phil-jackson-hinted-scottie-pippen-was-more-valuable-michael-jordan-2896546

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/phil-jackson-describes-the-importance-of-scottie-pippen-during-those-championship-runs-by-the-chicago-bulls/

[Roundball_Rock]

One of the myths constantly pushed is that Pippen somehow snuck into the top 20-30 all-time decades later, that he wasn't considered at that level at the time and was behind all these other 90's star that are always mentioned. Fortunately, Elliot Kalb wrote a book on the top 50 of all-time that was published in 2003--so right when these players were retiring and after all their primes had ended. It can give us a snapshot of what people thought with them fresh in people's minds.

K. Malone #17
Robinson #20
Barkley #21
Stockton #27
Pippen #29
Rodman #30
Payton #36
Ewing #38
Miller #48
Wilkins #49
Drexler #50

That order is similar to where most of these players are today. Malone, Barkley lead the group then Robinson, Pippen, Stockton are in the tier behind them (usually in a Robinson, Pippen, Stockton order) but far ahead of the others listed here. The one guy whose standing has changed a lot compared to this list is Rodman.

It should be noted Kalb relied heavily on stats in his analysis so that is one thing to keep in mind when looking at his list versus others.

Looking at published lists and discussions on places like ISH, Pippen has moved up slightly (i.e., 3-5 spots) relative to 20 years ago but the historical verdict 20 years after the fact is a lot more legitimate than the near term one because emotions are removed after that much time (that is when president's rankings start to solidify--whether going up or down--as well). It isn't this sea change that MJ stans make it out to be. If you listen to MJ stans he would not, and never was, top 50 caliber let alone being top 20-30 where he has settled in.

[3ball]

One of the myths constantly pushed is that Pippen somehow snuck into the top 20-30 all-time decades later, that he wasn't considered at that level at the time and was behind all these other 90's star that are always mentioned. Fortunately, Elliot Kalb wrote a book on the top 50 of all-time that was published in 2003--so right when these players were retiring and after all their primes had ended. It can give us a snapshot of what people thought with them fresh in people's minds.

K. Malone #17
Robinson #20
Barkley #21
Stockton #27
Pippen #29
Rodman #30
Payton #36
Ewing #38
Miller #48
Wilkins #49
Drexler #50

That order is similar to where most of these players are today. Malone, Barkley lead the group then Robinson, Pippen, Stockton are in the tier behind them (usually in a Robinson, Pippen, Stockton order) but far ahead of the others listed here. The one guy whose standing has changed a lot compared to this list is Rodman.

It should be noted Kalb relied heavily on stats in his analysis so that is one thing to keep in mind when looking at his list versus others.

Looking at published lists and discussions on places like ISH, Pippen has moved up slightly (i.e., 3-5 spots) relative to 20 years ago but the historical verdict 20 years after the fact is a lot more legitimate than the near term one because emotions are removed after that much time (that is when president's rankings start to solidify--whether going up or down--as well). It isn't this sea change that MJ stans make it out to be. If you listen to MJ stans he would not, and never was, top 50 caliber let alone being top 20-30 where he has settled in.

You're pointing out weak cases and exceptions to the consensus

everyone said Pippen was carried, and the stats prove it

6 rings inflated his inferior play and stats

[Roundball_Rock]

You're pointing out weak cases and exceptions to the consensus

The consensus is "exceptions to the consensus" in Jordanstan.

Don't worry, the Jordanstan brigade will be here soon to validate your warped view.

These guys hate Pippen, diminish him day in and day out and can't produce anything. :roll:

[3ball]

Y'all want me to shut this thread down with the CONSENSUS - infinite quotes about Pippen being carried and overrated?

Roundball posted the exceptions.. I can drop the consensus on this thread whenever I want

Pippen sucked and is the most overrated in the history of the game

[Phoenix]

.


The media wondered if Penny was BETTER than jordan - see the bottom right:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-03-2020/51eHs6.gif


Now would it be fair of me to use stuff like this to make a point about Penny vs Jordan and act like it was close?... The media is like a leaf in the wind and using them is inaccurate.. These are one-offs about Penny that vary from the consensus, just like Roundball's one-off quotes about Pip



That reminds me of this:

https://d1l5jyrrh5eluf.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/issue-17-grant-hill.jpg

[3ball]

That reminds me of this:

https://d1l5jyrrh5eluf.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/issue-17-grant-hill.jpg

Later today when I have more time, I'll post a counter to Roundball's exceptions - I'll post THE CONSENSUS about Pippen - infinite quotes about him being carried and utterly overrated by various journalists and players

[Roundball_Rock]

So imagine if someone said Penny and Hill were not considered to be top 10 or not even top 15 players at the time. It would be ridiculous, right? MJ stans themselves are the first to hype all these other guys and then say Pippen's stats sucked.

Player A: 22/8/6
Player B: 20/7/6
Player C: 21/4/7

Which one is Penny? Which one is Hill? Which one is Pippen? (All prime numbers.) If you break it down to their numbers as #1 options, Pippen looks even better. Penny in particular had some struggles as a #1 option (efficiency nosedived without Shaq while Pippen's increased without MJ).

It is a shame there are no real stats to gauge defensive impact since Pippen was an elite defender and those guys were not.

Penny, Hill are among the better ones MJ stans hype too (although the whole Penny thing is based on 3 seasons). Miller, Payton, Wilkins, Worthy, K. Johnson are all Jordanstan creations. Drexler has a legit case over Pippen--but there is a reason Pippen had more accolades then and is 10-15 spots ahead of him in all-time rankings.

[Boarman1]

MJ was the bucket getter, Scottie did everything else

Scottie definitely deserves more recognition and praise for what he did. Let's not forget MJ couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie, while LeBron took a bum Cavs team to the finals

[KD7]

No Pip


No Chip

:applause:

[Rico2016]

MJ was the bucket getter, Scottie did everything else

Scottie definitely deserves more recognition and praise for what he did. Let's not forget MJ couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie, while LeBron took a bum Cavs team to the finals
Bingo

[3ball]

MJ was the bucket getter, Scottie did everything else



Who had more total assists and apg in the 6 Finals?

Who had more dpoy votes every year?

MJ was the primary playmaker, scorer and defender... MJ dictated the offense more than any player ever





Let's not forget MJ couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie, while LeBron took a bum Cavs team to the finals



You needed a juggernaut with many HOF's to win the 80's East

Weak teams like the 01' Sixers, 07' Cavs, 09' Magic, or 03' Nets could neberake it back then - lebron formed a strong cast in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak

[3ball]

So imagine if someone said Penny and Hill were not considered to be top 10 or not even top 15 players at the time. It would be ridiculous, right? MJ stans themselves are the first to hype all these other guys and then say Pippen's stats sucked.

Player A: 22/8/6
Player B: 20/7/6
Player C: 21/4/7

Which one is Penny? Which one is Hill? Which one is Pippen? (All prime numbers.) If you break it down to their numbers as #1 options, Pippen looks even better. Penny in particular had some struggles as a #1 option (efficiency nosedived without Shaq while Pippen's increased without MJ).

It is a shame there are no real stats to gauge defensive impact since Pippen was an elite defender and those guys were not.

Penny, Hill are among the better ones MJ stans hype too (although the whole Penny thing is based on 3 seasons). Miller, Payton, Wilkins, Worthy, K. Johnson are all Jordanstan creations. Drexler has a legit case over Pippen--but there is a reason Pippen had more accolades then and is 10-15 spots ahead of him in all-time rankings.

Pippen's stats were system stats - his stats were nothing without the system

And here you go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pippen+overrated&oq=pippe&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l2j69i60l2j69i65l2.2128j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


Enjoy


And I have more individual quotes from guys like Shaq, who embarrassed Pippen on social media

[Rico2016]

So imagine if someone said Penny and Hill were not considered to be top 10 or not even top 15 players at the time. It would be ridiculous, right? MJ stans themselves are the first to hype all these other guys and then say Pippen's stats sucked.

Player A: 22/8/6
Player B: 20/7/6
Player C: 21/4/7

Which one is Penny? Which one is Hill? Which one is Pippen? (All prime numbers.) If you break it down to their numbers as #1 options, Pippen looks even better. Penny in particular had some struggles as a #1 option (efficiency nosedived without Shaq while Pippen's increased without MJ).

It is a shame there are no real stats to gauge defensive impact since Pippen was an elite defender and those guys were not.

Penny, Hill are among the better ones MJ stans hype too (although the whole Penny thing is based on 3 seasons). Miller, Payton, Wilkins, Worthy, K. Johnson are all Jordanstan creations. Drexler has a legit case over Pippen--but there is a reason Pippen had more accolades then and is 10-15 spots ahead of him in all-time rankings.
He's on fiiiiiire! -NBA Jam

[3ball]

Penny and Grant were considered better versions of Pippen

Eye test is obvious and that was the consensus

Penny/Grant were compared to MJ

they could take over in playoffs or clutch

Pippen couldn't take over games and was horrible in playoffs and clutch

[Rico2016]

Penny and Grant were considered better versions of Pippen

Eye test is obvious and that was the consensus

Penny/Grant were compared to MJ

they could take over in playoffs or clutch

Pippen couldn't take over games and was horrible in playoffs and clutch

How many years were they 1st team all defense and 3rd in MVP voting?

[3ball]

How many years were they 1st team all defense and 3rd in MVP voting?

Their accolades could never compare to a 6-time champ lol.. Pippen didn't deserve that many but the winning inflated his weaker production

And if 94' Pippen was truly viable, he would've easily won MVP when he had no cast and a 3-peat system to inflate wins - the optimal scenario to get MVP, yet he wasn't even top 2... Lol 2nd best player doh.. then the playoffs completely exposed him as NOT viable

[Rico2016]

Their accolades could never compare to a 6-time champ lol.. Pippen didn't deserve that many but the winning inflated his weaker production

And if 94' Pippen was truly viable, he would've easily won MVP when he had no cast and a 3-peat system to inflate wins - the optimal scenario to get MVP, yet he wasn't even top 2... Lol 2nd best player doh.. then the playoffs completely exposed him as NOT viable

How many years were they 1st team all defense and 3rd in MVP voting?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anyone suggesting that Pippen was equally important as Jordan for those titles is delusional, plain and simple. Important? Yes. Very important? Obviously. As important as MJ? Not in a million years.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ‘s team did just fine without him shooting all those shots.

They often increased or got leads with him on the bench or refering to a more passive role.

Jordan's absurd on/off numbers from '91-'93, especially in the postseason, say otherwise.

[Roundball_Rock]

And here you go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pipp...obile&ie=UTF-8

:lol these are all articles written after the fact, mostly by MJ stans diminishing Pippen. I could find 10x more saying Pippen was great or underrated.

That isn't what was being discussed here, though. At issue was how Pippen was perceived in his prime when he played. We have yet to see any evidence presented by MJ stans to support their ridiculous claims regarding this. Meanwhile the pro-Pippen side presented mountains of evidence.


Penny/Grant were compared to MJ

they could take over in playoffs or clutch

Yeah, which is why Grant Hill won...0 playoff series in his prime. :oldlol:

Penny had one year as a #1 option and he flamed out without Shaq there, both individually and team wise.

Penny as a #2 in 96' with Shaq: 21.7/4.3/7.3 on 51.3% (25.5% usage)
Penny as a #1 in 97' w/out Shaq: 20.5/4.5/5.6 on 44.7% (25.7% usage)

Pippen as a #2 in 93' with Jordan: 18.6/7.7/6.3 on 47.3% (23.9% usage)
Pippen as a #1 in 94' w/out Jordan: 22.0/8.7/5.6 on 49.1% (27.1% usage)

Meanwhile Pippen stepped up without Jordan.


Anyone suggesting that Pippen was equally important as Jordan for those titles is delusional, plain and simple

So Phil Jackson and Tex Winter are delusional? Not to mention some players from the team.

[Round Mound]

:lol these are all articles written after the fact, mostly by MJ stans diminishing Pippen. I could find 10x more saying Pippen was great or underrated.

That isn't what was being discussed here, though. At issue was how Pippen was perceived in his prime when he played. We have yet to see any evidence presented by MJ stans to support their ridiculous claims regarding this. Meanwhile the pro-Pippen side presented mountains of evidence.



Yeah, which is why Grant Hill won...0 playoff series in his prime. :oldlol:

Penny had one year as a #1 option and he flamed out without Shaq there, both individually and team wise.

Penny as a #2 in 96' with Shaq: 21.7/4.3/7.3 on 51.3% (25.5% usage)
Penny as a #1 in 97' w/out Shaq: 20.5/4.5/5.6 on 44.7% (25.7% usage)

Pippen as a #2 in 93' with Jordan: 18.6/7.7/6.3 on 47.3% (23.9% usage)
Pippen as a #1 in 94' w/out Jordan: 22.0/8.7/5.6 on 49.1% (27.1% usage)

Meanwhile Pippen stepped up without Jordan.



So Phil Jackson and Tex Winter are delusional? Not to mention some players from the team.

:applause:

[3ball]

.
the consensus on Pippen


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2020/CcChfx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2020/5VAKpu.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2020/MaeVZ6.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2020/J6Y2Y3.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2020/IPmP3I.gif



Stan Van Gundy on Pippen


"I have always wondered, as good as Scottie Pippen was, would he have been considered a star if he hadn’t played with Jordan and had to carry a team on his own,” Van Gundy explained. “We’ll never know, but my point is that sometimes we make the determination after the fact. In other words, after Chicago won championships, we branded Pippen a star...

[Roundball_Rock]

You have nothing, other than one quote from the brother of a guy whose team repeatedly lost to the Bulls. :lol

Cougar boards? Skip Bayless?

At least 3ball admits that he can't find any reporting from the 90's to support the MJ circle jerk mythology.

[Rico2016]

You have nothing, other than one quote from the brother of a guy whose team repeatedly lost to the Bulls. :lol

Cougar boards? Skip Bayless?

At least 3ball admits that he can't find any reporting from the 90's to support the MJ circle jerk mythology.

Bingo

[Roundball_Rock]

"Cougar Boards" sounds like a NSFW site. :lol

[ELITEpower23]

You have nothing, other than one quote from the brother of a guy whose team repeatedly lost to the Bulls. :lol

Cougar boards? Skip Bayless?

At least 3ball admits that he can't find any reporting from the 90's to support the MJ circle jerk mythology.

Roundball killin it again

[LAL]

Imagine reading a MJ & Pippen thread without bronsexuals chiming in with their obvious agendas.

[goozeman]

Pippen is the average girl at the bar with a hot friend, i.e. classic halo effect. It's easier to contextualize Pippen's career by comparing him similar players. In fact, the only way to really understand the impact of a player is to use league and position efficiency comparisons. Everything else is apples and oranges. Luckily, we have some tools for doing just that. BR.com gives a career similarity score to all players and Pippen's career most accurately matched Shawn Marion. In fact, the similarity between two players is damn near uncanny with BR giving the two players a 93.9.

https://i.ibb.co/QMqGBFd/similarityprofile.jpg

Here is Pippen's adjusted shooting numbers next to Marion's. Marion was the better offensive player in terms of efficiency.

https://i.ibb.co/6rJSyZn/adjustedshootingsim.jpg

Here is Pippen's adjusted true shooting points for his career versus some guys like Ceballos, Rice, Worthy, Green, and Marion. Most of these guys played in the same era and same position so the comparison should be definitive. Pippen was just one point above average compared to other small forwards, or dead last in efficiency.

https://i.ibb.co/kmzw8sT/Adjusted-True-Shooting.jpg

Finally, here is Pippen adjusted efficiency numbers ranked and compared to all the player's in his similarity matrix.

https://i.ibb.co/6mhKDvJ/Adjusted-True-Shooting5.jpg

Since ESPN recently revamped their all-time rankings, we can see how these players stack up with Pippen in perception:

Shawn Marion -- NR
Elton Brand -- NR
Adrian Dantley -- NR
Detlef Schrempf -- NR
Bailey Howell -- NR
John Havlick -- 33
Kevin Mchale -- 36
Dominique Wilkins -- 44
Paul Pierce -- 45
Paul Gasol -- 65

Pippen -- 21?! :biggums:

So Pippen is ranked much, much higher to similar players, ridiculously so in fact. This alone should tell you how overrated he is, and his reputation is largely just hype from playing on the Bulls and media perception. Speaking of media perception, we can put all those all-nba awards to rest too and how how they were primarily a by product of playing with Jordan and the Bulls hype machine. For example, getting back to Marion, he was also an excellent defender like Pippen. Marion finished in the top 10 in defensive win shares six times in a decade but failed to make a single all-defensive team in his career. Pippen only managed that same feat five teams, but of course was damn near first team all-defensive team every year of the decade. These two rank 81 and 82 in career defensive rating. :oldlol: That pass the smell test to you? Me neither...

[light]

Pippen is the average girl at the bar with a hot friend, i.e. classic halo effect.

Pippen was the 5th pick in the draft and an All-Star by 1990. He was already a star on his own, and even before the Bulls started winning. Pip didn't need a hot friend to be a top 5 pick.

And then Pip was the best all-around player on the Dream Team in 1992 and by 1996 he was officially a top 50 player of all time.

In 1996 Scottie Pippen was either the best player in the league or the second best player in the league, depending on who you asked.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/top10list.jpg

Clearly you were not alive in the mid 90's to actually watch Pippen, but he was that good.

[3ball]

Pippen was the 5th pick in the draft and an All-Star by 1990. He was already a star on his own, and even before the Bulls started winning. Pip didn't need a hot friend to be a top 5 pick.

And then Pip was the best all-around player on the Dream Team in 1992 and by 1996 he was officially a top 50 player of all time.

In 1996 Scottie Pippen was either the best player in the league or the second best player in the league, depending on who you asked.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/top10list.jpg

Clearly you were not alive in the mid 90's to actually watch Pippen, but he was that good.

Pippen > Hakeem?..

the article is clearly written by Pippen's lover... A wild outlier from the consensus (Pippen was borderline top 10 by mainstream... 10-30 by league execs and people in the know).. Pippen was supposed to be traded for Kemp and then rookie tmac..

And Pippen wasn't a star until 1992... He was worse than Ingram from 88-90', which cost the bulls rings from 88-90'

[999Guy]

Marion isn’t as valuable as Pip offensively. Same type of overrated defensively. Both got their asses lit up in plenty playoff series but are supposed to be once in a generation defenders.

Pip could really score, all on his own, and pass, and score and pass some more, and cut, and pick his spots and run an entire offense while Marion could only do one of those.

If you look at their seasons without all-time creators(Nash, Jordan), everything is easy to see.


Marion’s thing is, he legitimately had a better motor than Pip. But not a better player.

[3ball]

Marion isn’t as valuable as Pip offensively. Same type of overrated defensively. Both got their asses lit up in plenty playoff series but are supposed to be once in a generation defenders.

Pip could really score, all on his own, and pass, and score and pass some more, and cut, and pick his spots and run an entire offense while Marion could only do one of those.

If you look at their seasons without all-time creators(Nash, Jordan), everything is easy to see.


Marion’s thing is, he legitimately had a better motor than Pip. But not a better player.

Pippen never ran the whole offense... That's a massive myth

There was no point guard role in the triangle... :confusedshrug:

The triangle was equal-opportunity and everyone ran the same routes... Everyone made the post entry pass (initiated the triangle), and everyone CAUGHT the post entry pass and handed off to cutters

Btw, MJ got more assists than Pippen... Why defy the facts?... And Pippen couldn't create hos own shot - this is all common knowledge... There, i corrected everything in your post

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn, so MJ's era was so weak that Shawn Marion could be a top 5 player, MVP candidate, superstar, all-NBA 1st team player, etc. back then but in the 2000's he was just another all-star? :lebronamazed:


So Pippen is ranked much, much higher to similar players, ridiculously so in fact.

Terrible, shallow analysis. For instance, while Marion is the player who has the most similar win shares to Pippen, for Isiah Thomas it is Steve Francis followed by Doug Collins and Kemba Walker. I demand to know why Isiah is top 20-25 all-time and these others guys are not?


Shawn Marion -- NR
Elton Brand -- NR
Adrian Dantley -- NR
Detlef Schrempf -- NR
Bailey Howell -- NR
John Havlick -- 33
Kevin Mchale -- 36
Dominique Wilkins -- 44
Paul Pierce -- 45
Paul Gasol -- 65

Pippen -- 21?!

So Pippen is ranked much, much higher to similar players, ridiculously so in fact

The Jordanstan bubble at it again. No one outside of the MJ circle jerk considers those players to be "similar" to Pippen, with the exception of Havlicek. Havlicek is top 25-35 and MJ stans don't complain about him despite him being that era's Pippen. Why is Pippen slightly higer than Havlicek? Era bias against older player, which MJ stans are well-acquainted with. ; )


Pippen was the 5th pick in the draft and an All-Star by 1990. He was already a star on his own, and even before the Bulls started winning. Pip didn't need a hot friend to be a top 5 pick.

And then Pip was the best all-around player on the Dream Team in 1992 and by 1996 he was officially a top 50 player of all time.

In 1996 Scottie Pippen was either the best player in the league or the second best player in the league, depending on who you asked.

:applause:


Pippen was supposed to be traded for Kemp and then rookie tmac..

He is too naive to recognize that Pippen's trade value (it was Kemp and Ricky Pierce for Pippen BTW) shows how highly he was regarded. Drexler, for instance, was traded for only Otis Thorpe. Even the best player the Sixers got back for Barkley was only Jeff Hornacek.


Marion’s thing is, he legitimately had a better motor than Pip. But not a better player.

Marion also didn't last. There are always a bunch of players who look good briefly in a given era who don't last. Marion's last good season was his age 28 season.

Pippen vs. Marion Fact Check

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Marion 2 (Marion made two 3rd teams)
All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 3, Marion 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Marion 4
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Marion 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Marion 1 (10th for Marion)

MJ stans have come undone. They keep putting up laughable comparisons for Pippen because in their bubble of insecurity and rage this nonsense makes perfect sense. Meanwhile the rest of the world laughs at this stuff.


Pippen never ran the whole offense... That's a massive myth

News to Phil Jackson and the players on the team. :lol

[3ball]

Only MJ had to beat good teams (top 5 SRS teams) with horrible production from his sidekick

That's because Pippen routinely averaged 15-16 ppg on 33-40% shooting - only MJ beat good teams with this kind of crap from a sidekick

only mj HAD to... everyone else had a sidekick that took over and averaged high 20's or 30 in playoff series (McHale, worthy, Kobe, Kyrie, Wade, AD etc)...

[Roundball_Rock]

Only MJ had to beat good teams (top 5 SRS teams) with horrible production from his sidekick

Fact check:

90’s Sidekicks Compared

Statistical Comparison

Pippen (91’-98’): 20/7/6
Porter (90’-94’): 17/3/7
Daughtery (90’-94’): 20/10/4
Starks (92’-96’): 16/3/5
Johnson (93’-96’): 18/3/9
Kemp (93’-97’): 19/11/2
Penny (94’-96’): 20/5/7
Stockton (90’-98’): 15/3/12
Smits (94’-99’): 17/7/2
Drexler (95’-98’): 19/6/5
Elliott (91'-96'): 17/5/3

All-NBA selections (first team in parentheses)

Pippen (91’-98’): 7 (3)
Porter (90’-94’): 0
Daughtery (90’-94’): 1 (0)
Starks (92’-96’): 0
Johnson (93’-96’): 1 (0)
Kemp (93’-97’): 3 (0)
Penny (94’-96’): 2 (2)
Stockton (90’-98’): 9 (2)
Smits (94’-99’): 0
Drexler (95’-98’): 1* (0)
Elliott (91'-96'): 0

MVP Finishes as Sidekick

Pippen: 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th (3rd as #1 option)
Porter: 9th
Daughtery: 10th, 11th, 11th
Starks: none
Johnson: 11th
Kemp: 7th, 8th
Penny: 3rd, 10th
Stockton: 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th (2x), 11th (2x), 12th (2x), 13th, 15th (2x)
Smits: 16th
Drexler: 14th
Elliott (91'-96'): none

*He made the third team in 95’, when he spent most of the season as the #1 option in Portland.

[Roundball_Rock]

Speaking of sidekick production, where was MJ when he played with this guy?

Peak numbers: 25/7/2 on 50%
Prime numbers: 19/5/2 on 52% (8 seasons)
In Chicago w/MJ for a full season: 23/6/2 on 55%
In Chicago w/out MJ for 65 games: 22/5/3 on 50% (only 16/5/2 when MJ came back)

He led multiple teams in scoring. So why did MJ go 1-6 in the playoffs and have a losing record with Woolridge?

How about another teammate? We saw WS similarity scores used to say Pippen=Marion. Well, did you know MJ played with a player much better than Carmelo Anthony? Better than Tom Chambers, Terry Cummings, AK-47, Jamison, Zach Randolph too.

At one point MJ played with both Oakley and Woolridge and still did nothing other than pad his scoring stats.

[3ball]

Fact check:

90’s Sidekicks Compared

Statistical Comparison

Pippen (91’-98’): 20/7/6
Porter (90’-94’): 17/3/7
Daughtery (90’-94’): 20/10/4
Starks (92’-96’): 16/3/5
Johnson (93’-96’): 18/3/9
Kemp (93’-97’): 19/11/2
Penny (94’-96’): 20/5/7
Stockton (90’-98’): 15/3/12
Smits (94’-99’): 17/7/2
Drexler (95’-98’): 19/6/5
Elliott (91'-96'): 17/5/3

All-NBA selections (first team in parentheses)

Pippen (91’-98’): 7 (3)
Porter (90’-94’): 0
Daughtery (90’-94’): 1 (0)
Starks (92’-96’): 0
Johnson (93’-96’): 1 (0)
Kemp (93’-97’): 3 (0)
Penny (94’-96’): 2 (2)
Stockton (90’-98’): 9 (2)
Smits (94’-99’): 0
Drexler (95’-98’): 1* (0)
Elliott (91'-96'): 0

MVP Finishes as Sidekick

Pippen: 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th (3rd as #1 option)
Porter: 9th
Daughtery: 10th, 11th, 11th
Starks: none
Johnson: 11th
Kemp: 7th, 8th
Penny: 3rd, 10th
Stockton: 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th (2x), 11th (2x), 12th (2x), 13th, 15th (2x)
Smits: 16th
Drexler: 14th
Elliott (91'-96'): none

*He made the third team in 95’, when he spent most of the season as the #1 option in Portland.

The accolades are part of what we're arguing about - the argument is that he's overrated and didn't deserve those accolades, yet you're countering with the very accolades we're disputing..

It was "oh Pippen won another ring so he must be All NBA"... Yet his playoff and clutch performance was bad every year

The argument that you'll never make is HIS ACTUAL PLAY.. you can find a one-off here and there, but his playoff and clutch performance was bad every year... 91' was the only year he was reliable

[Elosha]

Pippen's a great player, but the current video is just troll bait to backlash against the success of the Last Dance. I watched Scottie from 1988 to his retirement and always routed for him. Pippen was, at various times at his peak, a top 10 player in the 90's but he was never, ever thought to be equal or better than Jordan except rarely by an airheaded commentator who wanted to be noticed. Then Jordan would just have a surreal game or two, and everyone would come back to earth. Jordan was the engine that drove and catapulted the Bulls. Scottie was extremely important, talented, and complementary to Jordan but no one, absolutely no one, thought he was as important or as good as Jordan, or that he was the best in the league. Pippen's a top 50 player, and a top 10-20 player at any given time in the late 90's though early 00's.

[Roundball_Rock]

The accolades are part of what we're arguing about - the argument is that he's overrated and didn't deserve those accolades

Goal post shifting: what we heard days ago was that Pippen wasn't considered great contemporaneously in the 90's.


It was "oh Pippen won another ring so he must be All NBA"

Other than the minor detail that the voting is done before the champion is known. :lol


The argument that you'll never make is HIS ACTUAL PLAY.. you can find a one-off here and there, but his playoff and clutch performance was bad every year.

I had entire threads on this years ago. It was hard since he had so many great playoff moments it had to be broken into two threads and multiple posts in each thread. It would be easy to do for guys you hype who had 2-3 great series in their entire careers.


Pippen's a top 50 player, and a top 10-20 player at any given time in the late 90's though early 00's.

Let me guess: you are a Jordan fan?


he was never, ever thought to be equal or better than Jordan except rarely by an airheaded commentator who wanted to be noticed

That isn't the point. The point is that he was great enough to occasionally be compared to MJ himself. You didn't see Reggie Miller or Nique, for example, being compared to MJ. It was a select group of elite players.

[Elosha]

Goal post shifting: what we heard days ago was that Pippen wasn't considered great contemporaneously in the 90's.



Other than the minor detail that the voting is done before the champion is known. :lol



I had entire threads on this years ago. It was hard since he had so many great playoff moments it had to be broken into two threads and multiple posts in each thread. It would be easy to do for guys you hype who had 2-3 great series in their entire careers.



Let me guess: you are a Jordan fan?



That isn't the point. The point is that he was great enough to occasionally be compared to MJ himself. You didn't see Reggie Miller or Nique, for example, being compared to MJ. It was a select group of elite players.

You are displaying some ignorance here. I'm one who actually watched the NBA from 1982 to the present so you can't snowball me. Not even close. Not sure how old you are...but you are a solid poster, so I'm guessing at least an actual adult. I am a Jordan and Bulls fan, and so what? Nothing I said is false.

So Dominique never got compared to Jordan? Seriously? From 1984 to at least 1991, they were constantly compared and considered top rivals. Dominique gets criminally underrated. Until maybe 1992-93, you'd be laughed out of the gym if you said Pippen was better than Dominique, who was still extremely good after his ac injury. Now that said -- Scottie was better at important factors like defense, playmaking, and was athletically on par with Dominique. But he was never the alpha scorer like Dominique either.

Reggie Miller? Who said anything about him? You also didn't read very carefully I said Pippen was top 10 in his prime, and you could put him in that 6-9 range probably with no argument from me. He was that good. But he certainly wasn't top 10 when he played for Portland and Houston, he was past his prime significantly and was a top 20 player at BEST (I was being generous). I question if you watched him play and often be a phantom on the court in his post-Bulls era. He was never even the second best player on a team again after he left Chicago.

So you're lowering the bar to "being occasionally compared" to Jordan? That''s a far cry from being "as important as MJ," i.e. the silly title of this thread. So since you've basically conceded that point now, the debate should be over.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am a Jordan and Bulls fan, and so what? Nothing I said is false.

Sorry, I meant no disrespect. You did have Pippen on the low end of the range but "top 10" could mean the guy was 6th at his peak and that, while outside the general view, isn't crazy, like what we see from a lot of MJ fans on ISH.


So Dominique never got compared to Jordan? Seriously? From 1984 to at least 1991, they were constantly compared and considered top rivals

I never heard of it. I heard of MJ compared to Magic, Bird, Barkley, Drexler, Hakeem at various points but never Nique'. I'm old enough to have watched and remember 90's basketball but not the 80's. What I have seen is YouTube, ESPN Classic, NBA TV, books, articles, etc.


Until maybe 1992-93, you'd be laughed out of the gym if you said Pippen was better than Dominique, who was still extremely good after his ac injury.

With the general public but you have stuff like SI saying Pippen should be first team all-NBA along with Malone as early as 92' and then comparing Pippen and Wilkins as equals in 93'. There is a reason Pippen, not Wilkins, was on the Dream Team. Pippen didn't squeak onto the team either. He was the 4th pick per the New York Times and per the author of the book on the Dream Team Pippen was Chuck Daly's third choice--behind MJ and Magic.


Reggie Miller? Who said anything about him?

There was a lot from MJ stans about Miller 1-2 weeks ago.


I question if you watched him play and often be a phantom on the court in his post-Bulls era. He was never even the second best player on a team again after he left Chicago.

I did watch him play. I have him as third best in 94', fourth in 95'. Top 5 for 4-5 years, top 10 for several more seasons. Regarding 1999 and 2000, he was Portland's most important player in the playoffs and arguably their best. He led them in assists, rebounds, steals, minutes and in scoring he was only 3 PPG behind Wallace.


So you're lowering the bar to "being occasionally compared" to Jordan? That''s a far cry from being "as important as MJ," i.e. the silly title of this thread. So since you've basically conceded that point now, the debate should be over.

I didn't post the thread. :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

You are displaying some ignorance here. I'm one who actually watched the NBA from 1982 to the present so you can't snowball me. Not even close. Not sure how old you are...but you are a solid poster, so I'm guessing at least an actual adult. I am a Jordan and Bulls fan, and so what? Nothing I said is false.

So Dominique never got compared to Jordan? Seriously? From 1984 to at least 1991, they were constantly compared and considered top rivals. Dominique gets criminally underrated. Until maybe 1992-93, you'd be laughed out of the gym if you said Pippen was better than Dominique, who was still extremely good after his ac injury. Now that said -- Scottie was better at important factors like defense, playmaking, and was athletically on par with Dominique. But he was never the alpha scorer like Dominique either.

Reggie Miller? Who said anything about him? You also didn't read very carefully I said Pippen was top 10 in his prime, and you could put him in that 6-9 range probably with no argument from me. He was that good. But he certainly wasn't top 10 when he played for Portland and Houston, he was past his prime significantly and was a top 20 player at BEST (I was being generous). I question if you watched him play and often be a phantom on the court in his post-Bulls era. He was never even the second best player on a team again after he left Chicago.

So you're lowering the bar to "being occasionally compared" to Jordan? That''s a far cry from being "as important as MJ," i.e. the silly title of this thread. So since you've basically conceded that point now, the debate should be over.

Well said! When it came for freak athletic DOMINANT scoring in the NBA, Nique was MJ's closest rival. I believe Nique finished 2nd to MJ in PPG MORE than any other player during MJ's career. When it came to the physically dominant scoring on the perimeter, MJ and Nique WERE SEEN as rivals. MJ even said it HIMSELF!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oUxPXr72Z0&t=6s


MJ HIMSELF in that video said Nique was THE PLAYER he got up for THE MOST!!!! This was when MJ was ALREADY the best player in the league! And the BIGGEST sports star in the world! That's HOW GREAT Nique was! Nique's most legendary solo rivals were MJ and Bird! Two of the top 3 players in the world back in that era. Nique JUST DIDN'T have the teams around him NEEDED to win rings. He NEVER played with another HOFer in their prime years. Moses got to Atlanta past his prime. MJ, Bird, Magic, Dream, etc. ALL played with HOF talent in their primes. And ALL won rings with those guys!!!

If Nique won six rings like Pippen, Nique would be in the top 15 GOAT! And on the Mt. Rushmore of SF's with Bron, Bird, and KD! Nique with six rings moves past Dr. J on the GOAT SF list. Because in terms of SCORING dominance, Nique was on the same level as Doc. Rebounding wise, he was on Doc's level. What Doc did for the one foot take off shit, Nique DID THE SAME for the vertical hops! MJ came down the road and COMBINED both of those facets the best!

[Elosha]

Sorry, I meant no disrespect. You did have Pippen on the low end of the range but "top 10" could mean the guy was 6th at his peak and that, while outside the general view, isn't crazy, like what we see from a lot of MJ fans on ISH.



I never heard of it. I heard of MJ compared to Magic, Bird, Barkley, Drexler, Hakeem at various points but never Nique'. I'm old enough to have watched and remember 90's basketball but not the 80's. What I have seen is YouTube, ESPN Classic, NBA TV, books, articles, etc.



With the general public but you have stuff like SI saying Pippen should be first team all-NBA along with Malone as early as 92' and then comparing Pippen and Wilkins as equals in 93'. There is a reason Pippen, not Wilkins, was on the Dream Team. Pippen didn't squeak onto the team either. He was the 4th pick per the New York Times and per the author of the book on the Dream Team Pippen was Chuck Daly's third choice--behind MJ and Magic.



There was a lot from MJ stans about Miller 1-2 weeks ago.



I did watch him play. I have him as third best in 94', fourth in 95'. Top 5 for 4-5 years, top 10 for several more seasons. Regarding 1999 and 2000, he was Portland's most important player in the playoffs and arguably their best. He led them in assists, rebounds, steals, minutes and in scoring he was only 3 PPG behind Wallace.



I didn't post the thread. :confusedshrug:

I know you didn't make the thread, but you seemed to support the video on which it's based. Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't read each page of this thread.

Go watch MJ's Playground for Jordan's own take of his early rivalry with Nique in 80's/early 90's. It was very competitive. I don't really think the majority of people would put Scottie as top 6 during whatever prime you want to designate for him. He was certainly sliding out of his prime fast in 96-98. I suppose 94 he was top 5, it was his best season. But even then he was only a darkhorse MVP season.

Look Pippen was great, but honestly Dominique and Thomas both deserved to be on the Dream Team ahead of him. And for every SI article you can find praising Pippen you can find a lot of other commentary often rightfully criticizing him when he faltered, i.e 1990 ECF, 92 EC semis; 94 ECF, and some really bad series/Finals in 96, 97 and 98. I'll give Pippen credit, in that his defense and overall playmaking didn't falter too much throughout the Bulls era, and that's extremely important. But his offense became increasingly anemic, he only really had about 5-6 years of good (not great) scoring output. Which of course, put even more pressure on an aging Jordan as teams realized Pippen would rarely hurt them with really big output. Fortunately Jordan was up to the task, and had good help also from Kukoc, and other solid role players.

[Sarcastic]

Fact check:

90’s Sidekicks Compared

Statistical Comparison

Pippen (91’-98’): 20/7/6
Porter (90’-94’): 17/3/7
Daughtery (90’-94’): 20/10/4
Starks (92’-96’): 16/3/5
Johnson (93’-96’): 18/3/9
Kemp (93’-97’): 19/11/2
Penny (94’-96’): 20/5/7
Stockton (90’-98’): 15/3/12
Smits (94’-99’): 17/7/2
Drexler (95’-98’): 19/6/5
Elliott (91'-96'): 17/5/3

All-NBA selections (first team in parentheses)

Pippen (91’-98’): 7 (3)
Porter (90’-94’): 0
Daughtery (90’-94’): 1 (0)
Starks (92’-96’): 0
Johnson (93’-96’): 1 (0)
Kemp (93’-97’): 3 (0)
Penny (94’-96’): 2 (2)
Stockton (90’-98’): 9 (2)
Smits (94’-99’): 0
Drexler (95’-98’): 1* (0)
Elliott (91'-96'): 0

MVP Finishes as Sidekick

Pippen: 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th (3rd as #1 option)
Porter: 9th
Daughtery: 10th, 11th, 11th
Starks: none
Johnson: 11th
Kemp: 7th, 8th
Penny: 3rd, 10th
Stockton: 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th (2x), 11th (2x), 12th (2x), 13th, 15th (2x)
Smits: 16th
Drexler: 14th
Elliott (91'-96'): none

*He made the third team in 95’, when he spent most of the season as the #1 option in Portland.

Your Pippen stats are misleading. His average only bumps up to 20 when you include 94 and 95. Those were the years that he was a first option with Jordan not playing. He averaged 19.1 in the first three peat, and 19.7 in the second.

Most of the guys you listed scored much more efficiently as well.

[bizil]

Being top 30 GOAT caliber AND top 6-8 GOAT at your position is some GREAT SHIT!! In my opinion, that's where Pip should be ranked. Just saying IF he was more proven as a dominant scorer, he could have LEAPFROGGED a minimum of 15 spots! And be more in that top 15 GOAT. And WHO KNOWS maybe even be top 10 GOAT caliber. Six rings, two gold medals, and redefining a position is some BOSS SHIT! Jordan is the ONLY OTHER PLAYER to ever achieve that trifecta! So Pip upping the ante scoring wise would have vaulted him up WAY UP THE CHARTS! Into possible #1 GOAT SF status at one point in time! Because his overall resume would have dictated it. EVEN IF Bron and Bird still would have been considered better players!

[goozeman]

Damn, so MJ's era was so weak that Shawn Marion could be a top 5 player, MVP candidate, superstar, all-NBA 1st team player, etc. back then but in the 2000's he was just another all-star? :lebronamazed:

More likely it just reflects Jordan's halo effect of Pippen's rather pedestrian numbers. I've already demonstrated that in comparison with his peers Pippen's numbers were not overly spectacular. His offensive production in many ways falls short by comparison, especially in regard to efficiency.


Terrible, shallow analysis. For instance, while Marion is the player who has the most similar win shares to Pippen, for Isiah Thomas it is Steve Francis followed by Doug Collins and Kemba Walker. I demand to know why Isiah is top 20-25 all-time and these others guys are not?

Wrong IT.



The Jordanstan bubble at it again. No one outside of the MJ circle jerk considers those players to be "similar" to Pippen, with the exception of Havlicek. Havlicek is top 25-35 and MJ stans don't complain about him despite him being that era's Pippen. Why is Pippen slightly higer than Havlicek? Era bias against older player, which MJ stans are well-acquainted with. ; )



Its not a matter for consideration since the comparison is not made upon opinion but the numbers instead. Pippen's value as a player is not all that subjective. It is what it is. Pippen was worth so many wins. What the comparison exposes is just how much the media overvalues Pippen relative to similar players. This is somewhat understandable given Jordan and the Bulls' incredible popularity in the 90's. Pippen was by far the biggest beneficiary of that. Pippen was briefly a top 10 player for a few years in the 90's. I would argue that his status was in part mostly a result of several other stars declining at around the same time Pippen hit his peak. Pippen never really changed much as a player and was a very consistent in terms of production.



He is too naive to recognize that Pippen's trade value (it was Kemp and Ricky Pierce for Pippen BTW) shows how highly he was regarded. Drexler, for instance, was traded for only Otis Thorpe. Even the best player the Sixers got back for Barkley was only Jeff Hornacek.

The trade didn't happen because Seattle knew they were about to get hosed, and Seattle fans were threatening to riot. Of course Krause wanted to trade a disgruntled, overhyped Pippen for Kemp. Classic power play from the best GM's is to trade overhyped asset at its peak. Jordan actually tried to convince George Karl to trade for Pippen. Why did Krause want to get rid of Pippen for Kemp? Why did Jordan want Pippen traded? Jordan knew he was coming back eventually. Easy money all day every day. Jordan next to Kemp would have been an abusive embarrassment of riches. Sixers basically had no choice but to trade Barkley, so the Suns got him on the cheap. Still considered one of the most lopsided trades ever. Barkely's win share similarity table has Lebron James, Dr. J, and Larry Bird in it. No where is Pippen anywhere in the same universe as any of those players. Pippen ain't got them kind of numbers.

[goozeman]

Marion also didn't last. There are always a bunch of players who look good briefly in a given era who don't last. Marion's last good season was his age 28 season.

Marion was legitimately a more efficient scorer for his career than Pippen. It's right there in the box score. The numbers don't reflect Pippen being a demonstrably better player. Marion had a 38.7 Vorp in his nine years with the Suns. Pippen had a Vorp 51.6 after 12 with the Bulls. That translates to an average seasonal vorp of 4.3 and 4.3 respectively. Both players dropped off tremendously after leaving the organizations that drafted them, which often happens to second tier offensive players. Give Marion to Jordan or Pippen to Nash and they would mirror each other in a lot of respects I bet. Nothing dramatically different between the two. Pippen was a better play maker -- I'll give him that. Marion was the better, more efficient scorer.



Pippen vs. Marion Fact Check

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Marion 2 (Marion made two 3rd teams)
All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 3, Marion 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Marion 4
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Marion 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Marion 1 (10th for Marion)

Production matches, and now put Marion on a Jordan-led six-time championship squad. Four all-star selections suddenly becomes 7 or 8, etc. You are actually making my point for me. Pippen only made 7 all-star team and had six championship years. Why is that?

[aceman]

I know you didn't make the thread, but you seemed to support the video on which it's based. Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't read each page of this thread.

Go watch MJ's Playground for Jordan's own take of his early rivalry with Nique in 80's/early 90's. It was very competitive. I don't really think the majority of people would put Scottie as top 6 during whatever prime you want to designate for him. He was certainly sliding out of his prime fast in 96-98. I suppose 94 he was top 5, it was his best season. But even then he was only a darkhorse MVP season.

Look Pippen was great, but honestly Dominique and Thomas both deserved to be on the Dream Team ahead of him. And for every SI article you can find praising Pippen you can find a lot of other commentary often rightfully criticizing him when he faltered, i.e 1990 ECF, 92 EC semis; 94 ECF, and some really bad series/Finals in 96, 97 and 98. I'll give Pippen credit, in that his defense and overall playmaking didn't falter too much throughout the Bulls era, and that's extremely important. But his offense became increasingly anemic, he only really had about 5-6 years of good (not great) scoring output. Which of course, put even more pressure on an aging Jordan as teams realized Pippen would rarely hurt them with really big output. Fortunately Jordan was up to the task, and had good help also from Kukoc, and other solid role players.

I hope you don't honestly believe that. If bulls needed Pippen to score more in 2nd three peat he would've - Phil gave him big defensive tasks which sapped energy. Jordan took most shots because that's what he wanted. Look at game 6 of 98 finals; Kerr took zero shots while Longley had 3. Both these guys averaged 10 fga each game that season. Jordan didn't need to carry burden he choose to & shot poor % while doing so.
Pippen offered more to dream team than Wilkins which was shown by assuming role as main point guard after injury to Magic & Stockton.
At time Scottie was among best players in his position & the best fill in the blanks guy in league. Of course he was among first few selected. Wilkins had busted achilles.
Thomas had been surpassed by a number of point guards including kj, hardaway, Stockton. Argument for Thomas is just revisionist bs

[Elosha]

I hope you don't honestly believe that. If bulls needed Pippen to score more in 2nd three peat he would've - Phil gave him big defensive tasks which sapped energy. Jordan took most shots because that's what he wanted. Look at game 6 of 98 finals; Kerr took zero shots while Longley had 3. Both these guys averaged 10 fga each game that season. Jordan didn't need to carry burden he choose to & shot poor % while doing so.
Pippen offered more to dream team than Wilkins which was shown by assuming role as main point guard after injury to Magic & Stockton.
At time Scottie was among best players in his position & the best fill in the blanks guy in league. Of course he was among first few selected. Wilkins had busted achilles.
Thomas had been surpassed by a number of point guards including kj, hardaway, Stockton. Argument for Thomas is just revisionist bs

I think you are misunderstanding me, so I'll elaborate. As to the Dream Team, I don't have any real problem with Scottie as to how he played. He was excellent. He very well may have played better than Isaiah or Dominique on the DT. But what I'm saying is that, based on past performance in 92, no one could argue with a straight face he was more deserving of it than Wilkens or Thomas. He was a three-time all-star and was just coming into his own. Isaiah and Dominique had been superstars and had a much higher pedigree than Scottie in 1992. And of course, if injuries were the ultimate consideration, why was Larry Bird selected? He could barely play with his back. Of course, I am extraordinarily happy Bird was selected, it would have been a travesty if he had not been. a far greater travesty than not choosing Isaiah or as you mentioned correctly, Nique who was injured and couldn't have played.

As to your other point , I gave Pippin credit when it was due for his play in the playoffs, but to argue that he could have been a much better score if Jordan shot less? Pippen shot horrifically from the field for much of the playoffs particularly in 96 to 98, and disappeared frequently on offense for long stretches. And contrary to your claim, Jordan shot well, particularly in the clutch much of the time, despite being the center of attention at all times. That's not to say he didn't do a lot of good things, but Scottie was never an alpha scorer. He just couldn't carry a team with or without Jordan, night after night, with his scoring. It wasn't his thing. He was a very good score at his very best, and sometimes a very bad score more often than you would want. Overall in the wash, Scottie was in general a very competent and good score but nothing more than that. Certainly not great, a clear second tier scorer. He had great athleticism, dexterity, and other qualities of many great scorers, but he just didn't have the mentality or the shooting ability do it. It's not a knock on him it's simply the truth. If you watched him play, you would know this. I don't know if you did or not.

[Elosha]

And you are right that Pippen, played elite defense as well, which I have already fully acknowledged. All true Bulls fans at the time had a huge appreciation for the defense that Scottie played. But that's not to say that Jordan wasn't working just as hard. Pippen rightfully gets his credit for styming Mark Jackson in the 98 Eastern Conference Finals, but we can't overlook that it was Jordan who was covering their best player for most of the series. And Reggie Miller didn't do much at all in game seven against Jordan's defense , despite his history of routinely torching teams in big games and in the clutch. Pippen and Jordan were enormous defensive assets to the Bulls, they were as Johnny Bach said two Dobermans. Their defense was incredible, and neither one of them should be slighted in favor of the other defensively. Those two players perimeter defense (with a big shout out to Grant and Rodman as well) is a big reason why I would give the Bulls favorable odds against any modern team. None of which has seen defense with their caliber and intensity.

[aceman]

I think you are misunderstanding me, so I'll elaborate. As to the Dream Team, I don't have any real problem with Scottie as to how he played. He was excellent. He very well may have played better than Isaiah or Dominique on the DT. But what I'm saying is that, based on past performance in 92, no one could argue with a straight face he was more deserving of it than Wilkens or Thomas. He was a three-time all-star and was just coming into his own. Isaiah and Dominique had been superstars and had a much higher pedigree than Scottie in 1992. And of course, if injuries were the ultimate consideration, why was Larry Bird selected? He could barely play with his back. Of course, I am extraordinarily happy Bird was selected, it would have been a travesty if he had not been. a far greater travesty than not choosing Isaiah or as you mentioned correctly, Nique who was injured and couldn't have played.

As to your other point , I gave Pippin credit when it was due for his play in the playoffs, but to argue that he could have been a much better score if Jordan shot less? Pippen shot horrifically from the field for much of the playoffs particularly in 96 to 98, and disappeared frequently on offense for long stretches. And contrary to your claim, Jordan shot well, particularly in the clutch much of the time, despite being the center of attention at all times. That's not to say he didn't do a lot of good things, but Scottie was never an alpha scorer. He just couldn't carry a team with or without Jordan, night after night, with his scoring. It wasn't his thing. He was a very good score at his very best, and sometimes a very bad score more often than you would want. Overall in the wash, Scottie was in general a very competent and good score but nothing more than that. Certainly not great, a clear second tier scorer. He had great athleticism, dexterity, and other qualities of many great scorers, but he just didn't have the mentality or the shooting ability do it. It's not a knock on him it's simply the truth. If you watched him play, you would know this. I don't know if you did or not.

Dream time couldn't just be just a tribute act - it needed to feature best players at time & also be balanced squad to win. Larry & Magic get a pass because they were icons which Thomas & Wilkins were not. Measured against best in league at time neither makes squad - simple. Scottie among first few chosen & guess what he was.
Pippen expended energy chasing Mark Jackson & John Stockton - if offense was priority Phil wouldn't have placed that workload on him. Harper chased Miller a lot & also covered Hornacek. More than any other time 2nd three peat allowed Jordan to focus on offense & rest on defence. No mistake Pippen's scoring dropped during this time. Pippen had an excellent offense game; he could post you, slash to basket, hit jumper. You don't think bulls couldn't have had Pippen post Hornacek or Mullin up all game?

[Phoenix]

Elosha, just a quick correction. I believe Scottie was a 2-time allstar when the Olympics rolled around(90,92). You may be thinking he made the all-star team in 91( even though he was obviously all-star caliber). Its not really relevant to your overall point but just wanted to mention.

[Rysio]

He was. More irreplaceable than Jordan too could've replaced Jordan with somebody like drexler and still win around 4 rings, pippen? Not so much.

[Elosha]

Dream time couldn't just be just a tribute act - it needed to feature best players at time & also be balanced squad to win. Larry & Magic get a pass because they were icons which Thomas & Wilkins were not. Measured against best in league at time neither makes squad - simple. Scottie among first few chosen & guess what he was.
Pippen expended energy chasing Mark Jackson & John Stockton - if offense was priority Phil wouldn't have placed that workload on him. Harper chased Miller a lot & also covered Hornacek. More than any other time 2nd three peat allowed Jordan to focus on offense & rest on defence. No mistake Pippen's scoring dropped during this time. Pippen had an excellent offense game; he could post you, slash to basket, hit jumper. You don't think bulls couldn't have had Pippen post Hornacek or Mullin up all game?

An aging Jordan wasn't quite as good a defender in the second three peat (neither was Pippen), but he was covering and usually limiting his man routinely. Who stole the ball from Malone to set up GW in game 6 in 98? Who stole the ball from Kittles in OT in the 98 first round for the critical go ahead dunk over Kendall Gill. Who shut down Miller in game 7? If you think Jordan was hiding on defense in the second three peat, then you didn't watch or weren't paying attention. But yes, Harper was a valued defender as well and he did strategically relieve Jordan and also Pippen, at times, from tough defense assignments.

Scottie was never, ever a dominant post player, so not sure why you are bringing that up.

Said what I want on DT, and thanks Phoenix, he was just a 2 time All Star. You can't go wrong with Pippen, DW, or IT, but don't act like the latter two didn't eminently deserve it.

[Elosha]

He was. More irreplaceable than Jordan too could've replaced Jordan with somebody like drexler and still win around 4 rings, pippen? Not so much.

:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Marion was legitimately a more efficient scorer for his career than Pippen.

Are you stupid?

Pippen had several runs of 19+ ppg on 47+% shooting all the way through the finals, much larger sample sizes against better opponents in more pressure situations.

Do you understand how basketball works?

[YouKnowWhatItIs]

In basketball, one player can carry the scoring. Since the Bulls had MJ, it’s not a big deal that Pippen was inefficient or sometimes anemic.

His value comes from things that COMPLEMENT scoring, not scoring itself.

[Roundball_Rock]

When it came for freak athletic DOMINANT scoring in the NBA, Nique was MJ's closest rival

Sure--but the problem with Nique' was that was all he did on the court. He wasn't a playmaker, he wasn't a defender, he wasn't a great rebounder, etc.


I believe Nique finished 2nd to MJ in PPG MORE than any other player during MJ's career.

I believe so and he won the scoring title in 86' when MJ was hurt. If it isn't Nique it would be Malone but I don't think he had as many 2nd's as Nique.


Nique JUST DIDN'T have the teams around him NEEDED to win rings.

The irony is when he finally did in 94' the Hawks traded him. That in and of itself tells you something. The other guys mentioned wouldn't be traded mid-season in that situation because their teams would want to win a chip and/or because they didn't think they could get equal value back for them.


I know you didn't make the thread, but you seemed to support the video on which it's based. Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't read each page of this thread.

Importance wise MJ was more important but it is a lot closer than people think. The Bulls without Pippen were basically the same level as the Bulls without Jordan, for example. MJ was clearly the better player but Pippen filled so many key roles for the Bulls that made him more important than his talent level or stats would suggest.


Go watch MJ's Playground for Jordan's own take of his early rivalry with Nique in 80's/early 90's.

Then that may be in the Kobe-Carter sense where it was a perception based thing that didn't last after it became clear one guy was on another level.


I don't really think the majority of people would put Scottie as top 6 during whatever prime you want to designate for him.

Do you mean for the decade or year by year? He arguably peaked rank wise as 3rd in 94'. What we do know is he crushed K. Malone and Barkley in all-NBA voting--these are the very guys that are posited as being better than him that year by Pippen detractors these days.


He was certainly sliding out of his prime fast in 96-98

Why do people keep saying this? 96' arguably was his best season. I suspect it is due to stats but what do people expect? MJ came back so of course his stats dipped compared to 94' and 95'. Moreover, he started having injury issues late in the season that carried over to the playoffs. So his final stats don't reflect how great he was for the first 75-80% of the season.

97' he declined from his 94'-96' peak but he arguably was better in 97' than in 92' and certainly better than he was in 93'. 98' he declined further still but was still a superstar. After that age and injuries caused the wheels to come off as far as Pippen as an elite player went.


But even then he was only a darkhorse MVP season.

It depends on the definition. When the MVP discussion happened that year it was a three way discussion with him in it, similar to how it was Kobe/Paul/KG in 08' (with Pippen in the KG role). People also forget he missed 10 games, which cost him MVP votes directly and more importantly cost the Bulls the #1 seed. If the Bulls won the #1 seed without MJ it would have been hard to deny him the MVP.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look Pippen was great, but honestly Dominique and Thomas both deserved to be on the Dream Team ahead of him

That is the MJ fan view but clearly not the view of the selection committee or the coach (or fans of anyone other than MJ TBH). To MJ fans, Pippen shouldn't have even been on the team; to the people actually involved in assembling the team he was a no brainer "must have" player. Which says something about how he was perceived.

Like I noted earlier, he was the 4th player selected and McCallum's Dream Team book noted Pippen was 3rd on Daly's list behind MJ and Magic (McCallum also covered the NBA for SI in the 90's so had reporting on the DT from back then too).


And for every SI article you can find praising Pippen you can find a lot of other commentary often rightfully criticizing him when he faltered,

You can do that with any player, even MJ. What I was referring to was not specific series but the general perception of him for 1) a given year 2) his prime as a whole. So yeah, you can find stuff about his issues in the 92' ECSF but it is in the context of him underachieving relative to the high expectations for him (he was 16/8/7 and that is considered a terrible series for him, for some perspective).


But his offense became increasingly anemic, he only really had about 5-6 years of good (not great) scoring output.

I don't think that is supported by the facts. We saw the Bulls offense with Pippen removed and they actually declined more without Pippen than without MJ. People focus solely on scoring and ignore the impact of playmaking. Pippen also played a valuable role in making sure everyone remained involved and performing at a good level as a result. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

I get why some criticize his scoring; what is BS is a lot of MJ fans here (not you) will say he sucked as a scorer for scoring 20 PPG in his prime and then hype other guys for scoring 21 or 22 PPG (without ever conceding that Pippen as a #1 option outscored those guys as a #1 option). It's a double standard.

Another note on scoring, everybody's scoring went down in the second half of the 90's. The pace slowed to a crawl. So yeah Pippen went from 21-22 to 19 but you can show a similar--or greater decline with anybody from that era.


Your Pippen stats are misleading. His average only bumps up to 20 when you include 94 and 95.

Not really. #1, for the record, the issue is basketballreference's software doesn't let me exclude years right in the middle. #2, it doesn't change much--which you confirmed:

He averaged 19.1 in the first three peat, and 19.7 in the second.

So that averages out to 19.4, with 94' and 95' included it is 20.0. Seriously? We are arguing over 0.6? :lol


Most of the guys you listed scored much more efficiently as well.

Probably not but even if so it doesn't tell us much as Pippen operated on a higher volume than those guys.


Wrong IT.

Good catch but the point remains. For the real IT his similarity score peers are guys like Marbury, Steve Smith, Dumars, Hersey Hawkins, Derek Harper, and Jason Terry.


This is somewhat understandable given Jordan and the Bulls' incredible popularity in the 90's. Pippen was by far the biggest beneficiary of that

The problem is this isn't supporting by the facts: his accolades increased with MJ gone, clearly implying MJ depressed, not increased, his accolades.

[Roundball_Rock]

But what I'm saying is that, based on past performance in 92, no one could argue with a straight face he was more deserving of it than Wilkens or Thomas

The Dream Team's job was not to hand out lifetime achievement awards, though. Their job was to win a gold medal. They selected the 11 best U.S. citizen NBA players (Hakeem was not a citizen at the time), in their view. Isiah was a special case because half the team hated him but Nique wasn't selected purely for basketball reasons. Zeke was still considered--but as the 11th selection and Drexler was chosen over him.

The irony of all this DT talk is Pippen was the best player on the DT according to Chuck Daly. He clearly was one of the best players on the DT--yet he is the guy MJ fans keep saying shouldn't have been on it? #Agenda


Isaiah and Dominique had been superstars and had a much higher pedigree than Scottie in 1992

You can say that about other players too. Dominique had a better resume then compared to Chris Mullin, Stockton, etc. Isiah had a resume that only Magic, MJ, and Bird could exceed. Etc. Only with Pippen do we hear this argument because MJ fans grasp at straws to diminish him. It isn't a legit argument, hence not applied to others on the DT.


And of course, if injuries were the ultimate consideration, why was Larry Bird selected?

Symbolism, leadership. Pippen, Mullin were both better than Bird at the time. I don't see anyone jumping up and down saying Bird shouldn't have been on the team.


Jordan took most shots because that's what he wanted.

Yup, which is what he did on the Dream Team and all-star teams too.


but to argue that he could have been a much better score if Jordan shot less?

He was 8th and 10th in scoring without MJ. He outscored a lot of guys as a #1 option compared to them as a #1 option, people whose scoring MJ fans say>>>Pippen's.


shot horrifically from the field for much of the playoffs particularly in 96 to 98

He was injured each of those runs. He shot well in 91'-93' playoffs and in the RS when healthy his entire prime. He wasn't shooting poorly in 96' until he got hurt late in the season, for example.

The other factor that is ignored is it's the playoffs so you face better defenses, especially in the East. Moreover, the Bulls were playing four rounds. His playoff numbers surely would look better if you cut them off after two rounds, for example, against weaker comp.



The trade didn't happen because Seattle knew they were about to get hosed, and Seattle fans were threatening to rio

It was a fan, popularity based decision, not a basketball decision.


Of course Krause wanted to trade a disgruntled, overhyped Pippen for Kemp

Jackson wanted to start from scratch--when he came back for 95' he said everybody who was on the first threepeat teams would have to go. He wanted a challenge.


Jordan next to Kemp would have been an abusive embarrassment of riches.

He, according to MJ, would not have come back to play with Kemp. Kemp is overrated. He failed spectacularly as a #1 option.


Marion was legitimately a more efficient scorer for his career than Pippen

*Cough* Steve Nash *cough*


Production matches

Basketball isn't a game of statistics. Statistically prime Hornacek=prime Reggie. Do you consider them equal players?

[Roundball_Rock]

What is all this resume talk about the Dream Team anyway? Of course players who played longer would have a better resume than younger players. Nique's rookie year was 5 years before Pippen's and 3 years prior to Mullin's.

I don't get it. The DT's job wasn't lifetime achievement awards, of course older players will have more accomplishments than younger players, and the full prime vs. prime results don't go against the DT's thinking. When Pippen and Nique both completed their primes Pippen was the more accomplished player (e.g., Pippen made all-NBA 1st team three times; Wilkins only once). Nique remained more decorated than Mullin but Mullin had his prime cut short by injury and Mullin was on the team for a specific role: breaking zone defenses with his shooting anyway.

Pippen was on the DT because he brought a total package of production in every facet of the game, could play multiple positions (he actually played PG on the DT), and because he was considered one of the best players period by the people involved in building the team.

An irony is MJ fans who say Pippen shouldn't have been on the DT will sing songs about how great Drexler, Ewing, Stockton, Robinson, etc. as well as players who didn't make the DT like Wilkins, Miller, and basically any 90's star :lol were and how they all>Pippen. Pippen was the 4th pick for the DT so ahead of all these guys except Ewing, Robinson, and obviously MJ himself. On Chuck Daly's list Pippen>all of these guys (i.e., anyone other than MJ and Magic).

This is a bit surreal. We hear 1) Pippen wasn't considered great/a superstar/elite/etc. at the time 2) Pippen shouldn't have been on the DT yet the people who built the DT clearly considered him precisely what MJ fans decades later claim Pippen never was considered and therefore he was an automatic choice. :wtf:

[Roundball_Rock]

90’s Perimeter Star Scoring Compared

Pippen 91'-98': 20.0 PPG on 51.4% eFG, 24.6% usage
Pippen in 94': 22.0 PPG on on 51.5% eFG, 27.1% usage (as #1)
Penny 95'-97': 21.1 PPG on 53.4% eFG, 24.9% usage
Penny in 97': 20.5 PPG on 49.3% eFG, 25.7% usage (as #1)
Drexler 88'-95': 23.3 PPG on 49.9% eFG, 26.6% usage
Hill 95'-00': 21.6 PPG on 48.0% eFG, 27.6% usage
Miller 90'-00': 20.8 PPG on 55.0% eFG, 23.2% usage
Price 89'-94': 18.2 PPG on 54.5% eFG, 23.2% usage
K. Johnson 89'-97': 19.8 PPG on 50.6% eFG, 23.3% usage
Wilkins 86’-94’: 28.1 PPG on 48.2% eFG , 31.4% usage
Payton 94’-02’: 20.9 PPG on 50.6% eFG , 25.4% usage
T. Hardaway 91’-98’: 20.3 PPG on 49.7% eFG, 24.9% usage
Stockton 89’-97’: 15.7 PPG on 55.7% eFG, 19.5% usage
Jordan 87’-96’: 32.7 PPG on 52.5% eFG, 33.8% usage
Dumars 89’-95’: 19.7 PPG on 49.2% eFG, 23.5% usage
Richmond 89’-98’: 23.1 PPG on 50.4% eFG, 26.4% usage
Mullin 88’-93’: 25.0 PPG on 54.1% eFG, 24.5% usage
Worthy 86’-92’: 20.3 PPG on 53.0% eFG, 23.2% usage
Worthy 92’: 19.9 PPG on 45.1% eFG, 25.4% usage (as #1)
Strickland 94’-98’: 17.9 PPG on 47.2% eFG, 23.9% usage

There isn’t much to say here as the numbers speak for themselves. Pippen is in a large middle tier of guys scoring between 20-23 PPG (mostly 20-21 PPG). His efficiency is better than nearly all of them, the exceptions being sharpshooters and/or players who were low usage and MJ and Worthy.

Pippen also showed he could scale up as a #1. When Penny, Worthy were put in the #1 role their efficiency nosedived and consequently they scored less despite having greater usage.

As a #1, which most of the guys listed here were, Pippen outscored everybody but Jordan, Wilkins, Drexler, Richmond, Mullin.

A final note, doing this by prime inflates some of these players who simply didn’t last like Pippen did. If you expanded it out to a 9-10 year time frame Pippen would look even better than he does in this table.

This is what I mean when I talk about the MJ fan bubble/echo chamber: the data clearly shows Pippen was a good scorer for his era--using MJ stan’s own benchmarks (i.e., the players listed here who MJ fans will hail as great scorers, including as more efficient than Pippen)--despite being a #2 option for almost all his prime, yet because MJ fans spend so much time talking among themselves this myth about Pippen’s scoring been low and inefficient has become an article of faith. The player most like him is Grant Hill. Here is the data narrowed to them to illustrate the point:

Pippen 91'-98': 20.0 PPG on 51.4% eFG, 24.6% usage
Pippen in 94': 22.0 PPG on on 51.5% eFG, 27.1% usage (as #1)
Hill 95'-00': 21.6 PPG on 48.0% eFG, 27.6% usage

Even if you move goal posts and factor in FT % Pippen and Hill are on par in TS % (the difference is 0.2%--forgot which one was ahead and don't feel like clicking on it again for such an insignificant difference). When have you ever heard Hill described as inefficient?

[aceman]

An aging Jordan wasn't quite as good a defender in the second three peat (neither was Pippen), but he was covering and usually limiting his man routinely. Who stole the ball from Malone to set up GW in game 6 in 98? Who stole the ball from Kittles in OT in the 98 first round for the critical go ahead dunk over Kendall Gill. Who shut down Miller in game 7? If you think Jordan was hiding on defense in the second three peat, then you didn't watch or weren't paying attention. But yes, Harper was a valued defender as well and he did strategically relieve Jordan and also Pippen, at times, from tough defense assignments.

Scottie was never, ever a dominant post player, so not sure why you are bringing that up.

Said what I want on DT, and thanks Phoenix, he was just a 2 time All Star. You can't go wrong with Pippen, DW, or IT, but don't act like the latter two didn't eminently deserve it.

Watch Pippen dominant Kobe in post when left one on one. Pippen's efficiency dropped when used mainly as spot up shooter which was his weakest aspect

[Roundball_Rock]

You can't go wrong with Pippen, DW, or IT, but don't act like the latter two didn't eminently deserve it.

Missed this comment earlier. Why is Pippen vs. Wilkins or IT the comparison to MJ fans? That isn't the decision the DT made. Drexler was the last guy picked (over IT). If IT or Nique went on the DT, it would be in place of Drexler. Only to MJ fans is there this myth that Pippen was on the DT bubble.

[3ball]

Missed this comment earlier. Why is Pippen vs. Wilkins or IT the comparison to MJ fans? That isn't the decision the DT made. Drexler was the last guy picked (over IT). If IT or Nique went on the DT, it would be in place of Drexler. Only to MJ fans is there this myth that Pippen was on the DT bubble.

Because Drexler was compared to MJ at the time and was runner-up for MVP...

He also led 2 teams to the Finals with superior peak play from 87-92' than anyone had seen from Pippen

and he played better against great defenders in those 90/92 Finals (Rodman, MJ, Pippen) than Pippen played against journeymen in the same time period (X-man in 92'... and everyone in 88-90 playoffs)

Drexler was easily considered the better player from 87-93' by everyone except your standard few in 100 exceptions.. (93' Pippen wasn't even all-defense and had a horrific 93' Playoffs including a horrific shooting Finals)

[RRR3]

According to 3ball Pippen was trash until 1992. But in the 91 playoffs, Pippen put up 21.6/8.9/5.8/2.5/1.1 on 56.4 TS% as the #2 on a title team.

[RRR3]

Because Drexler was compared to MJ at the time and was runner-up for MVP...

He also led 2 teams to the Finals with superior peak play from 87-92' than anyone had seen from Pippen

and he played better against great defenders in those 90/92 Finals (Rodman, MJ, Pippen) than Pippen played against journeymen in the same time period (X-man in 92'... and everyone in 88-90 playoffs)

Drexler was easily considered the better player from 87-93' by everyone except your standard few in 100 exceptions.. (93' Pippen wasn't even all-defense and had a horrific 93' Playoffs including a horrific shooting Finals)
Pippen was 1st team all defense in 93. Why do you keep blatantly lying?

[3ball]

Pippen was 1st team all defense in 93. Why do you keep blatantly lying?


Typo

Respond to the post without the typo



Drexler was viewed as better than Pippen in 92' because Drexler was compared to MJ at the time and was runner-up for MVP...

He also led 2 teams to the Finals with superior peak play from 87-92' than anyone had seen from Pippen

and he played better against great defenders in those 90/92 Finals (Rodman, MJ, Pippen) than Pippen played against journeymen in the same time period (X-man in 92'... and everyone in 88-90 playoffs)

So Drexler was easily considered the better player from 87-93' by everyone except your standard few in 100 exceptions.. (93' Pippen didn't get any dpoy votes and had a horrific 93' Playoffs including a horrific shooting Finals.. 93' Pippen under-produced 14' Wade)

[Round Mound]

Pippen puts up similar numbers to those stars despite the fact that MJ was shooting 24 25 26 FGAs PG not letting him develop his offensive game. But lets look at Pippen's SPG and BPG Average for Perimeter Players and the Defensive Impact he had (something that does not show in the stat book).

Check Out Where He Ranked WITHOUT JORDAN in Broken Down Stats:

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Pippen puts up similar numbers to those stars despite the fact that MJ was shooting 24 25 26 FGAs PG not letting him develop his offensive game. But lets look at Pippen's SPG and BPG Average for Perimeter Players and the Defensive Impact he had (something that does not show in the stat book).

Check Out Where He Ranked WITHOUT JORDAN in Broken Down Stats:

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:



^^^ so MJ won 5 of 6 rings with a sidekick that wasn't top 10 in PER???... :whatever:


He won rings with a sidekick that was 19th on defensive and offensive plus/minus???.?



How is that good for Pippen, and not goat for MJ??? ... :biggums:

[light]

I'll just leave this here:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-Best-1994.png

[ELITEpower23]

I'll just leave this here:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-Best-1994.png

Wrap it up

[Round Mound]

^^^ so MJ won 5 of 6 rings with a sidekick that wasn't top 10 in PER???... :whatever:


He won rings with a sidekick that was 19th on defensive and offensive plus/minus???.?



How is that good for Pippen, and not goat for MJ??? ... :biggums:

He wasn't top 10 in PER because MJ diluted Pippen's raw stats but all broken down stats suggest Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's.

Check out where he ranks when Jordan wasn't around. Eastily A Top 6 Player. :confusedshrug:

[ELITEpower23]

He wasn't top 10 in PER because MJ diluted Pippen's raw stats but all broken down stats suggest Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's.

Check out where he ranks when Jordan wasn't around. Eastily A Top 6 Player. :confusedshrug:

Bingo

1994 happened and we all saw it.

[BigShotBob]

Pippen peaked in 94' just to average like 22 points on 40% shooting without MJ protecting him from the Knicks in the second round.

"MVP, top 10 in the 90's"

:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was 1st team all defense in 93. Why do you keep blatantly lying?

He is sick. Non-stop blatant lies.


Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)


It is funny how so many players magically played better with MJ gone. :oldlol:


He wasn't top 10 in PER because MJ diluted Pippen's raw stats but all broken down stats suggest Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's.

Exactly.


1994 happened and we all saw it.

Yup, and we were alive then and we know how Pippen was viewed at the time. Why do they insist in lying to people who know better?

[3ball]

He is sick. Non-stop blatant lies.



It is funny how so many players magically played better with MJ gone. :oldlol:



Exactly.



Yup, and we were alive then and we know how Pippen was viewed at the time. Why do they insist in lying to people who know better?

Yes we saw Pippen be horrific in the 94' Playoffs - he was 4th on the team in ws/48 with multiple legendary chokes in the same series.. comoletely lost without mj... 2nd round exit despite employing the cutting edge system/brand of the era and 3-peat know-how

But Pippen was always bad in the PLAYOFFS - remember that - he's the worst playoff clutch producer of any star ever... Literally last in clutch points in 97 and 98 Finals behind chris morris and ostertag

[aceman]

Yes we saw Pippen be horrific in the 94' Playoffs - he was 4th on the team in ws/48 with multiple legendary chokes in the same series.. comoletely lost without mj... 2nd round exit despite employing the cutting edge system/brand of the era and 3-peat know-how

But Pippen was always bad in the PLAYOFFS - remember that - he's the worst playoff clutch producer of any star ever... Literally last in clutch points in 97 and 98 Finals behind chris morris and ostertag
Clutch points aren't even a thing - stick to reality

[Roundball_Rock]

Clutch points aren't even a thing - stick to reality

Plus his entire post was chock full of lies. It isn't worth responding to these sickos at times. Whatever drugs they need to handle the pain and pressure of LeBron I guess. :lol

[ELITEpower23]

Clutch points aren't even a thing - stick to reality

He is trying to hide how LBJ had more game winning makes than MJ by adding in weird 'clutch' stats like games that still have 5 min left.

3ball is trying to convince people of MJ's scoring greatness without mentioning that MJ was the one taking all the shots. Same style as Allen Iverson, take all the shots, score all the points. No duh if you take 40% of the shots you are going to score a lot.

[ELITEpower23]

Plus his entire post was chock full of lies. It isn't worth responding to these sickos at times. Whatever drugs they need to handle the pain and pressure of LeBron I guess. :lol

He rags on Pippen's scoring (ignoring his ELITE defense in the process) while also forgetting Wade's 2013 was 2nd worst all time for a #2 option thru the playoffs AND his Wade's 2014 Finals was top 10 Worst all time for a #2 (Worse than Pippen's worst Finals). He is a looney one.

[Roundball_Rock]

He rags on Pippen's scoring (ignoring his ELITE defense in the process) while also forgetting Wade's 2013 was 2nd worst all time for a #2 option thru the playoffs AND his Wade's 2014 Finals was top 10 Worst all time for a #2 (Worse than Pippen's worst Finals). He is a looney one.

MJ stans are laughable on Pippen's scoring. I routinely see them diss Pippen's scoring and then praise another player for scoring 1-2 PPG--or even the same--later in the same thread or elsewhere (so a #2 option was scoring as much or more than #1 options but he is the one who can't score). Pippen and sidekick Wade are one of the frequent expressions of this hypocrisy.

Yeah, to them offense is all about scoring. They never bring up playmaking because they don't understand the concept of passing the ball. This explains why they love MJ: who took by far the most shots even on the Dream Team or all-star teams.

Wade also played in a weaker defensive era against weaker defenses--points they love to make, except when Pippen, Kyrie, or Wade are involved.


Same style as Allen Iverson, take all the shots, score all the points. No duh if you take 40% of the shots you are going to score a lot.

Yup. MJ fans stopped watching the Bulls 22 years ago but we have another player like that today. Lavine was #1 or #2 (he and Chris Paul would keep swapping) in "clutch scoring" for most of this year*, a point commentators would often bring up on broadcasts but of course he scored a ton of clutch points--he took all the shots, even when teammates were wide open.

*Last time I heard the stat was in January or early February--not sure where he was when the season was suspended.

[3ball]

Clutch points aren't even a thing - stick to reality

points scored down the stretch of tight games - aka points scored when the game is within 5 points in the 4th

^^^ that's the definition of clutch points on NBA.com, and the leader in playoff clutch points wins the title basically every year - it's probably the biggest determinant of who wins the title

And Pippen ranks basically last in the 97 Finals (4 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&PerMode=Totals) clutch points... Jordan 23) and 98 Finals (8 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&PerMode=Totals) clutch points.. Jordan 30)

^^^ that's basically last in clutch points behind many bench players

[Roundball_Rock]

These are laughably tiny sample sizes from only 2 seasons. "Clutch" is defined as the final 5 minutes with the margin being with 5 points. So an already small sample size (2 series in 2 years) shrinks even more.

Stockton is a good example. He had 13 on 50% (3 for 6) in 97' but 10 on 25% (3 for 12) in 98'. When you are taking 18 shots you will have a lot of variance. 18 shots is nothing. That's equivalent to one basketball game.

[3ball]

These are laughably tiny sample sizes from only 2 seasons. "Clutch" is defined as the final 5 minutes with the margin being with 5 points. So an already small sample size (2 series in 2 years) shrinks even more.

Stockton is a good example. He had 13 on 50% (3 for 6) in 97' but 10 on 25% (3 for 12) in 98'. When you are taking 18 shots you will have a lot of variance. 18 shots is nothing. That's equivalent to one basketball game.


MJ had 76 clutch points in 1998 Playoffs (record)... Here's Lebron:



2006 - 55 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2007 - 58 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2008 - 21 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2009 - 10 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2010 - 16 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2011 - 43 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals) (0 in Finals)
2012 - 46 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2013 - 37 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2014 - 24 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2015 - 40 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2016 - 18 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals) (kyrie 20)
2017 - 18 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)
2018 - 47 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)

1997 - 55 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals) (Pippen 18.. Stockton 36)
1998 - 76 (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals) (Pippen 24.. Stockton 28)


So lebron played best in 06' and 07' when there was no expectations, and then 2018 when he had peak experience.. but he lost the so-called "carry-jobs" in 06' and 07', while MJ won bigger carry jobs

Btw, MJ had 30 clutch points in the 98' Finals and 8 for Pippen (behind Stockton, Russell and Longley)... And MJ had 23 clutch points in 1997 Finals while Pippen had 4 (behind Stockton, Hornacek, Morris and Kukoc)...

[Round Mound]

These where the players that where better than Pippen in the 90's:

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Barkley
4-Malone
5-Robinson
6-Shaq
7-Drexler
8-Ewing

Impact wise.

9-Pippen

10.Stockton
11-Payton
12-Grant Hill etc

[Elosha]

I truly don't have time to respond every point made since I last posted on this thread. I think I just want to bring it back to the original OP and the video. I absolutely have great respect and admiration for Scottie Pippen. I think he was a great second option for the Bulls. I think he played great on the Dream Team even if there were others who were just as deserving, I think he was overall a huge asset, and yes, the Bulls likely would not have won as many championships if you simply took him away, just like superstars such as Magic, Bird, Curry, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron and Duncan would not have won their multiple championships without strong secondary players and/or or even other superstars on their team.

Where I take issue is someone claiming Pippen was as as important as Michael Jordan. That is just unequivocally false and a complete and biased rewriting of history. I have a feeling those defending Pippen so vigorously in this thread would have a much harder time swallowing an argument that Wade was just as important to LeBron's Heat championships as LeBron, or that Irving was as important Cavs championship as LeBron. Second best players are integral and extremely valuable players to any championship team, but there's a reason they're second. They are not the most important player. Nobody in their right mind would trade Scottie Pippen for Michael Jordan. It's just provocative and frankly ludicrous to say otherwise. And I think that's the whole point of such videos, simply to be counterintuitive and provocative, and to get attention.

[SATAN]

This explains why they love MJ: who took by far the most shots even on the Dream Team

And managed to score 25 less points than Charles Barkley. In fact, Michael Jordan shot 1/11 in the quarter finals.

[3ball]

And managed to score 25 less points than Charles Barkley. In fact, Michael Jordan shot 1/11 in the quarter finals.

He wasn't going 100% because it wasn't competitive

MJ saved that for the practices, where he showed everyone who the best was

[Boarman1]

MJ was always the bucket getter, thats why he got paid the big bucks

Scottie was more versatile, meaning he could play and defend more positions. Without Scottie, MJ doesn't win a ring, much less get out of the first round

[SATAN]

He wasn't going 100% because it wasn't competitive

MJ saved that for the practices, where he showed everyone who the best was

:oldlol: Imagine this guy if LeBron shot NINE PERCENT from the field instead of MJ.

NINE...PERCENT...










































9%

:roll:

[goozeman]

Pippen puts up similar numbers to those stars despite the fact that MJ was shooting 24 25 26 FGAs PG not letting him develop his offensive game. But lets look at Pippen's SPG and BPG Average for Perimeter Players and the Defensive Impact he had (something that does not show in the stat book).

Check Out Where He Ranked WITHOUT JORDAN in Broken Down Stats:

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

These type of metrics are really only good for comparing players who have similar roles against a league average. They don't always have functional relationship to what is really happening on the court in terms of wins and losses. Pippen's number only wow because he was just a very good all-around utility guy. His scoring however was still relatively anemic. In terms of being a first-option scorer, Pippen's 1995 season at 21.4 ppg does not even rank in the top 100 for the 90's. His 1994 season is only good enough to be ranked 83 at 22 ppg. And this is on below average efficiency for such players, ranking 91 and 121 respectively in true shooting.

If we take Pippen range of 21.4-22 and look at players he average withing +/- .6 (basically 20.8 to 22.6 ppg), we get a good idea of what happens to teams with that kind of option as their main scoring threat. In the 90's there were 44 teams which had a Pippen-like first option, and they had a combined record of 1713 wins and 1567 losses, or 52 percent win rate. In total they went 108-106 in the playoffs. If these teams even made the playoffs, they usually didn't make it out of the first round. Thirty-two of the 41 teams either failed to make the playoffs or didn't advance at all. Only two made the finals, the Magic-led Lakers (shows how great Magic truly was) and the Spurs in the lockout year, which is kind of a hard season to judge as it might been a fluke based on shortened season. So that's what you get with a Pippen-level scoring threat. Pippen's great run in 1993-94 was based largely on having a HoF coach in Phil Jackson and a veteran, championship savvy roster. After 1994, the Bulls dropped to a 52 percent win percentage that you typically see from teams with a number one scorer of Pippen's caliber.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think he played great on the Dream Team even if there were others who were just as deserving

Again, this is a MJ stan fantasy. In the real world Pippen was a no brainer for the DT; in Jordanstan he was a borderline pick.


Where I take issue is someone claiming Pippen was as as important as Michael Jordan. That is just unequivocally false and a complete and biased rewriting of history

The problem is some of the people who appear to think that way are named Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, etc.


vigorously in this thread would have a much harder time swallowing an argument that Wade was just as important to LeBron's Heat championships as LeBron, or that Irving was as important Cavs championship as LeBron.

What did the Heat and Cavs do without LeBron versus without those players? There was no decline minus other players--but a large decline minus LeBron. With the Bulls, they performed at the same level minus MJ and minus Pippen--with the distinction being the relative fall (from the prior level) was actually greater sans Pippen.


His scoring however was still relatively anemic.

This myth was debunked earlier in this thread. This is a bad faith argument by MJ stans. We know this because MJ stans repeatedly praise other players for similar scoring performances--and these guys actually scored less than Pippen as a #1 option.


If we take Pippen range of 21.4-22 and look at players he average withing +/- .6 (basically 20.8 to 22.6 ppg)

Basically every perimeter star of the 90's was between 20-22 PPG. The exceptions were MJ, Wilkins and barely Drexler (23 PPG) at the top end and Stockton, Price at the low end.


After 1994, the Bulls dropped to a 52 percent win percentage that you typically see from teams with a number one scorer of Pippen's caliber.

It is interesting how MJ stans always downplay the importance of his teammates but keep citing the 95' decline, which was a much greater decline minus Horace Grant than minus the (alleged) GOAT.

[goozeman]

Basically every perimeter star of the 90's was between 20-22 PPG. The exceptions were MJ, Wilkins and barely Drexler (23 PPG) at the top end and Stockton, Price at the low end.



That's kind of the point. Look at who is at the top of the scoring by season. Jordan is the only true perimeter player in the top 20, and he has 5 of top 7 spots. If not for Jordan, the league would have been dominated by big men in the 90's like Ewing, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, etc.. Their teams would divided up all the titles. No other guard would have won a championship as first option except for maybe Drex or Magic. Jordan's numbers are actually crazy when you put him into perspective next to other wing players. You have guys like Glenn Rice who led his teams in scoring for half a decade and average 27 ppg on .605 and get swept in first round by the Knicks. Players like Reggie Miller who had double-digit win shares for over a decade always getting eliminated by the Knicks and when he does get past them runs into Shaq. Pippen's is maybe in that same tier of guys like Rice and Miller and other guard/sf guys on the outside looking in. Jordan is on another level completely from Pippen and the rest of the wings of that era. The 90's was basically Jordan and Bulls versus a murderers row of all-time great lineup of fours and fives.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wilkins arguably was the second best scorer of the era. Malone is the only guy with a case over him.


Glenn Rice who led his teams in scoring for half a decade and average 27 ppg on .605 and get swept in first round by the Knicks

Players like Reggie Miller

The common thread is these are players who did nothing other than score--and they weren't dominant in that category. Miller averaged 21 PPG for his prime; Rice 22 (1992-1997).


Pippen's is maybe in that same tier of guys like Rice and Miller

For those of you who aren't familiar with these players here is a quick fact check:

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7, Miller 3, Rice 2
All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Miller/Rice 0
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Rice 1, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Rice 1, Miller 0

We could go on but you get the point. These are different tiers of players.

Re Rice, his teams were always trash or average also rans (was he ever on a 50+ win team as a #1? I don't think so). His stats wouldn't be the same on good teams--and when he went to a contender he went to 18 PPG and then 16 PPG.

[Round Mound]

These type of metrics are really only good for comparing players who have similar roles against a league average. They don't always have functional relationship to what is really happening on the court in terms of wins and losses. Pippen's number only wow because he was just a very good all-around utility guy. His scoring however was still relatively anemic. In terms of being a first-option scorer, Pippen's 1995 season at 21.4 ppg does not even rank in the top 100 for the 90's. His 1994 season is only good enough to be ranked 83 at 22 ppg. And this is on below average efficiency for such players, ranking 91 and 121 respectively in true shooting.

If we take Pippen range of 21.4-22 and look at players he average withing +/- .6 (basically 20.8 to 22.6 ppg), we get a good idea of what happens to teams with that kind of option as their main scoring threat. In the 90's there were 44 teams which had a Pippen-like first option, and they had a combined record of 1713 wins and 1567 losses, or 52 percent win rate. In total they went 108-106 in the playoffs. If these teams even made the playoffs, they usually didn't make it out of the first round. Thirty-two of the 41 teams either failed to make the playoffs or didn't advance at all. Only two made the finals, the Magic-led Lakers (shows how great Magic truly was) and the Spurs in the lockout year, which is kind of a hard season to judge as it might been a fluke based on shortened season. So that's what you get with a Pippen-level scoring threat. Pippen's great run in 1993-94 was based largely on having a HoF coach in Phil Jackson and a veteran, championship savvy roster. After 1994, the Bulls dropped to a 52 percent win percentage that you typically see from teams with a number one scorer of Pippen's caliber.

Still does not change the fact that he was 4th in PER and lead his team to just 2 wins less than with MJ. All metrics show Pippen (other than scoring or shooting) was top notch in all other skills. Especially defensevily, where he had Big Man like Impact and ranks alone among SFs of the 90's.

[Soundwave]

Why doesn't Roundball_Rock ride anyone else's ass for having strong no.2 options? Who is this mythical basketball player that won tons of championships with no help? *crickets*.

Kareem had TWO players in range of Pippen or flat out better, Magic and Worthy and that team still had other good players beyond that, lol. How many people rip on Magic and Kareem 24/7 for that? *crickets*

Quite frankly if you stan for LeBron you ought to shut the f*ck up because you have no leg to stand on. This is a guy who ran to team up with 2/5 other top PER players that season, then when that got too hard he ran again to team up with two other younger All-Stars in Cleveland, and when Golden State turned that tactic in his face, he goes running to LA and pushes to get Anthony Davis because he can't do sh*t without another top end player in their 20s.

This guy has been running off to try and super load his teams for 10 years now, bailing out as soon as it gets too hard, but that is somehow "noble"? If Jordan wanted to do that, he'd have 10 titles+. He could have easily even as is instead of wasting his time with Wizards gone running to LA with Phil to cash in several more championships later on even.

All this stuff is bull crap. Where's the outrage over Magic, Kareem, Bird, Russell, having All-Star teams to work with for large majorities of their careers?

It's only an issue for MJ because of jealousy that they overwhelming public, other players (past and present) label him GOAT, so you got some seething jealousy over that. Jordan played with one guy in his entire career capable of scoring 20 points a night and even then, just barely 20 ppg most of the time.

Pippen averaged under 20 ppg in 4/6 of the Bulls championship seasons. In the final threepeat, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting, 19.2 ppg on 41.7% shooting, and 16.8 ppg on 41.5% shooting.

You would think Pippen was racking up 24-25 ppg on 50% shooting the way he gets talked up here when he was no where close to that. Jordan won 4/6 titles with no one else scoring over 20 ppg on his team. Gimme a break with that being some kind of Dream Team.

[ELITEpower23]

Why doesn't Roundball_Rock ride anyone else's ass for having strong no.2 options? Who is this mythical basketball player that won tons of championships with no help? *crickets*.

Kareem had TWO players in range of Pippen or flat out better, Magic and Worthy and that team still had other good players beyond that, lol. How many people rip on Magic and Kareem 24/7 for that? *crickets*

Quite frankly if you stan for LeBron you ought to shut the f*ck up because you have no leg to stand on. This is a guy who ran to team up with 2/5 other top PER players that season, then when that got too hard he ran again to team up with two other younger All-Stars in Cleveland, and when Golden State turned that tactic in his face, he goes running to LA and pushes to get Anthony Davis because he can't do sh*t without another top end player in their 20s.

This guy has been running off to try and super load his teams for 10 years now, bailing out as soon as it gets too hard, but that is somehow "noble"? If Jordan wanted to do that, he'd have 10 titles+. He could have easily even as is instead of wasting his time with Wizards gone running to LA with Phil to cash in several more championships later on even.

All this stuff is bull crap. Where's the outrage over Magic, Kareem, Bird, Russell, having All-Star teams to work with for large majorities of their careers?

It's only an issue for MJ because of jealousy that they overwhelming public, other players (past and present) label him GOAT, so you got some seething jealousy over that. Jordan played with one guy in his entire career capable of scoring 20 points a night and even then, just barely 20 ppg most of the time.

Pippen averaged under 20 ppg in 4/6 of the Bulls championship seasons. In the final threepeat, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting, 19.2 ppg on 41.7% shooting, and 16.8 ppg on 41.5% shooting.

You would think Pippen was racking up 24-25 ppg on 50% shooting the way he gets talked up here when he was no where close to that. Jordan won 4/6 titles with no one else scoring over 20 ppg on his team. Gimme a break with that being some kind of Dream Team.

It seems that you are very late to the knowledge party so let me catch you up quickly.

Pippen outscored their finals opposition number two option in five of six finals. 5 of 6.

Pippen even scored more than the number one option in one of those Finals. When you add in his elite-level defense, playmaking, rebounding, and all the other intangibles it's quite clear who had the advantage in every single Finals.

[Soundwave]

It seems that you are very late to the knowledge party so let me catch you up quickly.

Pippen outscored their finals opposition number two option in five of six finals. 5 of 6.

Pippen even scored more than the number one option in one of those Finals. When you add in his elite-level defense, playmaking, rebounding, and all the other intangibles it's quite clear who had the advantage in every single Finals.

And why is that never used against Magic, LeBron, Kareem, Bird, etc. etc. Since when did any of these guys ever win anything without a lot of help?

Kareem has 0 titles without at least 2 other players on his squad scoring about 18 ppg for the season + playoffs for example. And many times he had 3 other players in the 17-22 ppg range on any of his squads that won anything. Anyone ever raise a stink about that?

Michael Jordan never had that kind of help. He never had the kind of help Magic had on the Lakers. He never had a Shaq or Kobe tier top 10 player to play with. He never had the virtual All-Star team Bird had with the Celtics in 86.

Yes, Jordan had a no.2 option ... but it's not like he was the greatest no.2 option ever or someone better than any one of Magic, Kareem, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan ever got to play with.

The reason this board has a stick up its ass about this is because it's apparently some kind of crime if Jordan needs a no.2 sidekick, but this is not held against any other player.

The Bulls main supporting cast, meaning players 2-5 on the scoring chart was also outscored by their opposition 5/6 of the Finals, but I'm guessing you don't want to touch that.

Please do point to this magical player who has 3+ titles while doing it with no real star tier 2nd option. Jordan would have probably *more* titles if he was given the same supporting cast that other guys like Kareem, Bird, Magic, LeBron, Kobe, etc. have had for large chunks of their careers, not less. Jordan + Magic + Worthy anyone? How many titles do they win? Even with MJ in his 30s, they'd win a ton. Jordan + Wade + Bosh at age 25 for MJ? How many titles is that? Then having Kyrie + Love and then AD too? I take 26 year old AD over 31/32 year old Pippen any day.

[aceman]

And why is that never used against Magic, LeBron, Kareem, Bird, etc. etc. Since when did any of these guys ever win anything without a lot of help?

Kareem has 0 titles without at least 2 other players on his squad scoring about 18 ppg for the season + playoffs for example. And many times he had 3 other players in the 17-22 ppg range on any of his squads that won anything. Anyone ever raise a stink about that?

Michael Jordan never had that kind of help. He never had the kind of help Magic had on the Lakers. He never had a Shaq or Kobe tier top 10 player to play with. He never had the virtual All-Star team Bird had with the Celtics in 86.

Yes, Jordan had a no.2 option ... but it's not like he was the greatest no.2 option ever or someone better than any one of Magic, Kareem, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan ever got to play with.

The reason this board has a stick up its ass about this is because it's apparently some kind of crime if Jordan needs a no.2 sidekick, but this is not held against any other player.

The Bulls main supporting cast, meaning players 2-5 on the scoring chart was also outscored by their opposition 5/6 of the Finals, but I'm guessing you don't want to touch that.

Please do point to this magical player who has 3+ titles while doing it with no real star tier 2nd option. Jordan would have probably *more* titles if he was given the same supporting cast that other guys like Kareem, Bird, Magic, LeBron, Kobe, etc. have had for large chunks of their careers, not less. Jordan + Magic + Worthy anyone? How many titles do they win? Even with MJ in his 30s, they'd win a ton. Jordan + Wade + Bosh at age 25 for MJ? How many titles is that? Then having Kyrie + Love and then AD too? I take 26 year old AD over 31/32 year old Pippen any day.

Jordan dominated the scoring - that's what he did which means less shots for other players. You could put him on team with Bosh, Davis, Wade or whoever & guess what? He'll have the same number of fga's & those other guys 2 - 5 will still be out scored.

[Soundwave]

Jordan dominated the scoring - that's what he did which means less shots for other players. You could put him on team with Bosh, Davis, Wade or whoever & guess what? He'll have the same number of fga's & those other guys 2 - 5 will still be out scored.

They'd also have more than 2 championships.

Scoring is not some superficial thing, when you have the most dominant scorer in the history of the sport you wield an unbelievable weapon on your team.

If you put Jordan in any of these other guys' situations he's still winning 6-8+ championships. Let him hand pick what team he wants to play for with 2 other All-Star players from age 25 onwards? Are you kidding me? How much damage he would have done in that scenario would be sick.

Magic/Bird/Kareem/Kobe/Shaq were all gifted way better situations, and today's players like LeBron and Durant have massive advantages in simply being able to run off and team up with multiple other good players on a regular basis. No team loyalty whatsoever, just join up with your buddies, hey sure would be nice if Jordan did that with Ewing and Barkley. Win a title in Toronto and go running off to LA, getting another All-Star player to join a team that already was pretty good to begin with, lol. Like I like Kawhi, but zero chance in hell Jordan would run off a championship team like that, he would stay. These guys, LeBron/Durant/Kawhi they just stack the odds in their own favor and then run away when the pastures look greener elsewhere.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Why doesn't Roundball_Rock ride anyone else's ass for having strong no.2 options? Who is this mythical basketball player that won tons of championships with no help? *crickets*.

Kareem had TWO players in range of Pippen or flat out better, Magic and Worthy and that team still had other good players beyond that, lol. How many people rip on Magic and Kareem 24/7 for that? *crickets*

Quite frankly if you stan for LeBron you ought to shut the f*ck up because you have no leg to stand on. This is a guy who ran to team up with 2/5 other top PER players that season, then when that got too hard he ran again to team up with two other younger All-Stars in Cleveland, and when Golden State turned that tactic in his face, he goes running to LA and pushes to get Anthony Davis because he can't do sh*t without another top end player in their 20s.

This guy has been running off to try and super load his teams for 10 years now, bailing out as soon as it gets too hard, but that is somehow "noble"? If Jordan wanted to do that, he'd have 10 titles+. He could have easily even as is instead of wasting his time with Wizards gone running to LA with Phil to cash in several more championships later on even.

All this stuff is bull crap. Where's the outrage over Magic, Kareem, Bird, Russell, having All-Star teams to work with for large majorities of their careers?

It's only an issue for MJ because of jealousy that they overwhelming public, other players (past and present) label him GOAT, so you got some seething jealousy over that. Jordan played with one guy in his entire career capable of scoring 20 points a night and even then, just barely 20 ppg most of the time.

Pippen averaged under 20 ppg in 4/6 of the Bulls championship seasons. In the final threepeat, he averaged 16.9 ppg on 39% shooting, 19.2 ppg on 41.7% shooting, and 16.8 ppg on 41.5% shooting.

You would think Pippen was racking up 24-25 ppg on 50% shooting the way he gets talked up here when he was no where close to that. Jordan won 4/6 titles with no one else scoring over 20 ppg on his team. Gimme a break with that being some kind of Dream Team.

A-friggin-men

[aceman]

They'd also have more than 2 championships.

Scoring is not some superficial thing, when you have the most dominant scorer in the history of the sport you wield an unbelievable weapon on your team.

If you put Jordan in any of these other guys' situations he's still winning 6-8+ championships. Let him hand pick what team he wants to play for with 2 other All-Star players from age 25 onwards? Are you kidding me? How much damage he would have done in that scenario would be sick.

Magic/Bird/Kareem/Kobe/Shaq were all gifted way better situations, and today's players like LeBron and Durant have massive advantages in simply being able to run off and team up with multiple other good players on a regular basis. No team loyalty whatsoever, just join up with your buddies, hey sure would be nice if Jordan did that with Ewing and Barkley. Win a title in Toronto and go running off to LA, getting another All-Star player to join a team that already was pretty good to begin with, lol. Like I like Kawhi, but zero chance in hell Jordan would run off a championship team like that, he would stay. These guys, LeBron/Durant/Kawhi they just stack the odds in their own favor and then run away when the pastures look greener elsewhere.

Kinda avoided my point, but anyway..
Lebron formed superteam with Love & Kyrie. Then they were upstaged by Warriors who gained Durant.
Jordan in today's league could hand pick teammates but doesn't mean somebody else couldn't out gun him

[Soundwave]

Kinda avoided my point, but anyway..
Lebron formed superteam with Love & Kyrie. Then they were upstaged by Warriors who gained Durant.
Jordan in today's league could hand pick teammates but doesn't mean somebody else couldn't out gun him

I'll take a wild freaking guess here and Jordan at age 25 with Wade + Bosh, and then afterwards with Kyrie + Love, and then again in his 30s with Anthony Davis would have more than only 3 titles to show for it.

Quite easily at that.

Hell, I think Kobe Bryant may well end up winning more titles in the same situation at the same age.

But the point is it's laughable to point at THAT guy as being great while ragging on Jordan for having Pippen. Yeah, as if running off like a b*tch to team up with your buddies and then bailing out every time things gets too hard is some how greatness by comparison.

We're supposed to celebrate the guy who wrote the book on quitting and super-teaming versus ... what? Going through tough times and then winning 6 titles when you finally got one guy who could score 19 ppg? THAT is what is supposed to be the alternative here? Don't make me f**king laugh.

Imagine Jordan teaming up with his buddies Ewing and Barkley like that.

When this magical unicorn of a player that can win 4/5/6 titles without a no.2 option of any kind shows up, wake me up because by that metric guys like Kareem, LeBron, Shaq, Magic, Bird are no where close either.

[aceman]

I'll take a wild freaking guess here and Jordan at age 25 with Wade + Bosh, and then afterwards with Kyrie + Love, and then again in his 30s with Anthony Davis would have more than only 3 titles to show for it.

Quite easily at that.

Hell, I think Kobe Bryant may well end up winning more titles in the same situation at the same age.

But the point is it's laughable to point at THAT guy as being great while ragging on Jordan for having Pippen. Yeah, as if running off like a b*tch to team up with your buddies and then bailing out every time things gets too hard is some how greatness by comparison.

We're supposed to celebrate the guy who wrote the book on quitting and super-teaming versus ... what? Going through tough times and then winning 6 titles when you finally got one guy who could score 19 ppg? THAT is what is supposed to be the alternative here? Don't make me f**king laugh.

Imagine Jordan teaming up with his buddies Ewing and Barkley like that.

When this magical unicorn of a player that can win 4/5/6 titles without a no.2 option of any kind shows up, wake me up because by that metric guys like Kareem, LeBron, Shaq, Magic, Bird are no where close either.

The irony is the bulls were the superteam of its time. Which team did the bulls face during the second three peat that had two players in addition to main option who could create their own shot to standard of Pippen & Kukoc? Maybe sonics with Payton & Detlef - that's it & Bulls much better in other areas

[nashwade]

in the first episode of TLD, MJ already said upfront without Pip, he woulnd't have won.. why are you people still debating? that the MJ interviewed in TLD was a robot?

[Soundwave]

The irony is the bulls were the superteam of its time. Which team did the bulls face during the second three peat that had two players in addition to main option who could create their own shot to standard of Pippen & Kukoc? Maybe sonics with Payton & Detlef - that's it & Bulls much better in other areas

The Magic would've been that team, but it's not Jordan's fault Shaq bailed out. The Bulls had many years where other teams where more loaded than them.

How much of a "super team" are you really when you have 1 guy scoring over 20 ppg only and no other guy hitting even 15 ppg and all of your core players at into their 30s like that 2nd 3-peat Bulls was.

The fact is no one in NBA history has won a lot without minimum Pippen++ support.

Not Kareem. Not Magic. Not Bird. Not Shaq. Not LeBron. Not Kobe. Not Duncan.

The only reason Pippen gets brought up so often is not because he's anything that special as a no.2 option relative to what any other top 10 player played with, it's because it's out of jealousy of Jordan simply winning so much more than any other player in the modern era and getting so much more attention from the public.

Has nothing to do with anything else. Ain't no one here slurping Worthy's nuts, he was the third freaking option on the Lakers and won a Finals MVP. Which series was Toni Kukoc doing that in?

They don't tell you the 72 Bucks didn't just have Kareem and Oscar they also had Bobby Dandridge who was a damn good player, 4 time All-Star and won a title without Kareem as a 1B option averaging 20 ppg in the 78 NBA Finals. Ain't no one bringing that sh*t up to try and disparage Kareem.

Guys like LeBron and Durant are automatically disqualified from the "having a no.2 option is bad mmmmmkay?" debate with their behavior of constantly running to greener pastures and having zero team loyalty, constantly needing not only a good no.2 option, but a great one that's still in their peak/prime 20s (unlike Jordan who won 3 titles in his 30s with an aging, declining Pippen). They're not good examples if you want to some how invent some guy that wins on his own. If you're dumb enough to make this the hill you want to die on fine, but don't make me f**king laugh by turning around and pointing to any of these guys as an example of something Jordan wasn't. If Jordan acted like these two b*tches he'd have 10+ titles with none of whiny excuses.

It must be nice to have a 26/10/51% shooting "second option" who's only 26 years old (prime years) to make your 35/36 year old season that much easier.

[light]

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/20200607_185202.jpg

[Soundwave]

If the Sonics and Jazz were so easy to beat, exactly why pray tell did the Shaq Lakers and Hakeem Rockets have so many problems with them?

[97 bulls]

The Magic would've been that team, but it's not Jordan's fault Shaq bailed out. The Bulls had many years where other teams where more loaded than them.

How much of a "super team" are you really when you have 1 guy scoring over 20 ppg only and no other guy hitting even 15 ppg and all of your core players at into their 30s like that 2nd 3-peat Bulls was.

The fact is no one in NBA history has won a lot without minimum Pippen++ support.

Not Kareem. Not Magic. Not Bird. Not Shaq. Not LeBron. Not Kobe. Not Duncan.

The only reason Pippen gets brought up so often is not because he's anything that special as a no.2 option relative to what any other top 10 player played with, it's because it's out of jealousy of Jordan simply winning so much more than any other player in the modern era and getting so much more attention from the public.

Has nothing to do with anything else. Ain't no one here slurping Worthy's nuts, he was the third freaking option on the Lakers and won a Finals MVP. Which series was Toni Kukoc doing that in?

They don't tell you the 72 Bucks didn't just have Kareem and Oscar they also had Bobby Dandridge who was a damn good player, 4 time All-Star and won a title without Kareem as a 1B option averaging 20 ppg in the 78 NBA Finals. Ain't no one bringing that sh*t up to try and disparage Kareem.

Guys like LeBron and Durant are automatically disqualified from the "having a no.2 option is bad mmmmmkay?" debate with their behavior of constantly running to greener pastures and having zero team loyalty, constantly needing not only a good no.2 option, but a great one that's still in their peak/prime 20s (unlike Jordan who won 3 titles in his 30s with an aging, declining Pippen). They're not good examples if you want to some how invent some guy that wins on his own. If you're dumb enough to make this the hill you want to die on fine, but don't make me f**king laugh by turning around and pointing to any of these guys as an example of something Jordan wasn't. If Jordan acted like these two b*tches he'd have 10+ titles with none of whiny excuses.

It must be nice to have a 26/10/51% shooting "second option" who's only 26 years old (prime years) to make your 35/36 year old season that much easier.

Nobody else gets brought up. Because their fan base dont fell impelled to undermine the contributions of his teammates like Jordan fans do.

[Soundwave]

Nobody else gets brought up. Because their fan base dont fell impelled to undermine the contributions of his teammates like Jordan fans do.

No, plenty of guys do ... Kobe Bryant was a far better player than Scottie Pippen, averaging 29 freaking ppg in the Lakers 2nd title for example and was hounded constantly until 2009 for being a "sidekick".

That happens to every no.2 option playing with a great player ... the only players in NBA history that would be able to stand alongside a player as good as Jordan and not be overshadowed is maybe Shaq.

The reason Pippen gets brought up is not because many of these guys give two shits about Pippen. They don't. They are angry though that Jordan gets so much attention and won too much, so the only thing they basically have to work with is the "well he had Pippen" ... but so what.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Duncan all had equal or better supporting casts for large portions of their careers. Even Isiah freaking Thomas ... Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Bill Lambeer, and Dantley/Johnson are 4-5 other very good players.

Gimme a break with Jordan having some magical special thing that other great players didn't. None of these other guys won a goddamn thing without loaded teams that were as good or better than the Bulls.

I take McHale + 80s Parish + Walton + Johnson + Ainge over any freaking supporting cast the Bulls had without thinking twice. I take Kareem + Worthy + Cooper + Scott over any version of the Bulls too if building a team around Jordan.

When a player shows up who can win on his own again and again and again in a 5-on-5 sport like basketball, call me. And don't make me laugh by pointing at modern b*tch ass players like LeBron, Durant, and even Kawhi that go running for greener pastures and insist on constantly having extremely high end no.2 options and quite often very good no.3 options too colluded onto their team.

[aceman]

The Magic would've been that team, but it's not Jordan's fault Shaq bailed out. The Bulls had many years where other teams where more loaded than them.

How much of a "super team" are you really when you have 1 guy scoring over 20 ppg only and no other guy hitting even 15 ppg and all of your core players at into their 30s like that 2nd 3-peat Bulls was.

The fact is no one in NBA history has won a lot without minimum Pippen++ support.

Not Kareem. Not Magic. Not Bird. Not Shaq. Not LeBron. Not Kobe. Not Duncan.

The only reason Pippen gets brought up so often is not because he's anything that special as a no.2 option relative to what any other top 10 player played with, it's because it's out of jealousy of Jordan simply winning so much more than any other player in the modern era and getting so much more attention from the public.

Has nothing to do with anything else. Ain't no one here slurping Worthy's nuts, he was the third freaking option on the Lakers and won a Finals MVP. Which series was Toni Kukoc doing that in?

They don't tell you the 72 Bucks didn't just have Kareem and Oscar they also had Bobby Dandridge who was a damn good player, 4 time All-Star and won a title without Kareem as a 1B option averaging 20 ppg in the 78 NBA Finals. Ain't no one bringing that sh*t up to try and disparage Kareem.

Guys like LeBron and Durant are automatically disqualified from the "having a no.2 option is bad mmmmmkay?" debate with their behavior of constantly running to greener pastures and having zero team loyalty, constantly needing not only a good no.2 option, but a great one that's still in their peak/prime 20s (unlike Jordan who won 3 titles in his 30s with an aging, declining Pippen). They're not good examples if you want to some how invent some guy that wins on his own. If you're dumb enough to make this the hill you want to die on fine, but don't make me f**king laugh by turning around and pointing to any of these guys as an example of something Jordan wasn't. If Jordan acted like these two b*tches he'd have 10+ titles with none of whiny excuses.

It must be nice to have a 26/10/51% shooting "second option" who's only 26 years old (prime years) to make your 35/36 year old season that much easier.
You're all over the place - first talking about NBA today now the 80's. Didn't answer my question tho - which team did the bulls face which had a better 1 - 2 punch after first option than Pippen & Kukoc? Answer is none. The greatest scorer of alltime had the most help.
BTW, magic only had two players who could create own shot. Nick Anderson third best scorer but was a spot up shooter.

[light]

How much of a "super team" are you really when you have 1 guy scoring over 20 ppg only and no other guy hitting even 15 ppg and all of your core players at into their 30s like that 2nd 3-peat Bulls was.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Bulls-Big-Threeb538c7462978563d.png

Definitely couldn't say that about LeBron, Kyrie and Love.

And it's not just about offense. Jordan and Scottie were the most lethal defensive duo in the league (in history?). Scottie and Grant were the best defensive forward tandem - a setup which would continue with Rodman.

Defense is how Chicago won. Defense is what made them a dynasty.

None of LeBron's "super" teammates were super defenders - most of them were bad defenders. And Love and Kyrie were often benched because of their poor defense. So how much of a super team are you when you're closing games with old Richard Jefferson and old Deron Williams instead of Love and Kyrie because they've been benched?

The answer is that you're not a super team at all.

Steph, KD, Dray and Klay is a true well rounded super team - offense and defense covered by stars. That's similar to the 90's Bulls.

The only defensive standout on LeBron's best teams has been LeBron.

[Soundwave]

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Bulls-Big-Threeb538c7462978563d.png

Definitely couldn't say that about LeBron, Kyrie and Love.

And it's not just about offense. Jordan and Scottie were the most lethal defensive duo in the league (in history?). Scottie and Grant were the best defensive forward tandem - a setup which would continue with Rodman.

Defense is how Chicago won. Defense is what made them a dynasty.

None of LeBron's "super" teammates were super defenders - most of them were bad defenders. And Love and Kyrie were often benched because of their poor defense. So how much of a super team are you when you're closing games with old Richard Jefferson and old Deron Williams instead of Love and Kyrie because they've been benched?

The answer is that you're not a super team at all.

Steph, KD, Dray and Klay is a true well rounded super team - offense and defense covered by stars. That's similar to the 90's Bulls.

The only defensive standout on LeBron's best teams has been LeBron.

What about LeBron + Kyrie + Love is that unequal to Curry + Klay + Draymond?

It's only when they got Durant that it was unfair and quite frankly I don't shed one single tear for LeBron because he wrote the damn book on running away when things got too tough bailing out twice by that time, and some other player just made it blow up in his face. B*tch just got out b*tched.

LeBron James has never been the defensive player Michael Jordan was.

The Bulls were the no.1 defence in the NBA in 97-98 WITHOUT Pippen. At age 38 grandpa Jordan came back and before blowing out his knee he took the 2nd worst defence in the NBA to the 6th best overnight. Compare that to LeBron's mediocre defensive impact on the Lakers last season at age 33/34.

Jordan + two other decent players is always going to be a good bet for the best trio in the NBA at any point in history, there's nothing particularily special about that.

29 yo Jordan + Siakim + say Kevin Love would be the best trio in the NBA today, so what.

[Reggie43]

Nice posts Soundwave. Pippen was good, probably on the same tier as a Kemp, Mourning, Drexler etc but gets mythicized by fans with an obvious agenda acting like Jordan played with a 94 Peak Pippen for all his rings while ignoring the obvious mental struggles/confidence issues that he had his whole career.

[Soundwave]

You're all over the place - first talking about NBA today now the 80's. Didn't answer my question tho - which team did the bulls face which had a better 1 - 2 punch after first option than Pippen & Kukoc? Answer is none. The greatest scorer of alltime had the most help.
BTW, magic only had two players who could create own shot. Nick Anderson third best scorer but was a spot up shooter.

There were several teams that had better no.2 + 3 + 4 combined options than the Bulls offensively.

Last time I checked basketball isn't a 2-on-2 sport or even 3-on-3 sport, there are 4 other players on the floor at any time that can score a basketball for either team.

Kevin Johnson + Majerle + Dumas outscored Pippen + Grant + Paxson in 93 for instance.

Likewise Payton + Schremp outscored Pippen + Kukoc in the 96 Finals ... I mean shit Hershey Hawkins also outscored Kukoc in the 96 Finals. Nobody gives a shit about the Schremps and Hawkins of history because they didn't play with Jordan and hence they lost, if the situation was reversed we'd have non-stop threads here today about how great/underrated Detlef Schremp was because he helped Michael Jordan.

I take a guy like Schrempf over Kukoc any day, the only reason he gets no hype these days is because he didn't play on the Jordan Bulls.

When you have Shaq AND Penny exactly why do you need 10 other shot creators and Anderson was more than just a spot up shooter, he had two 20 ppg seasons basically prior to Penny basically becoming the no.2 option. Dennis Scott was a spot up shooter and a damn good fit, you don't want 5 guys on the floor all needing to have plays run for them.

Players like Kevin Johnson and Schrempf and Terry Porter get zero respect on this board, but if they played with 90s Jordan and won a bunch of titles with him this board would be all over their nut sacks as being the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[97 bulls]

No, plenty of guys do ... Kobe Bryant was a far better player than Scottie Pippen, averaging 29 freaking ppg in the Lakers 2nd title for example and was hounded constantly until 2009 for being a "sidekick".

That happens to every no.2 option playing with a great player ... the only players in NBA history that would be able to stand alongside a player as good as Jordan and not be overshadowed is maybe Shaq.

The reason Pippen gets brought up is not because many of these guys give two shits about Pippen. They don't. They are angry though that Jordan gets so much attention and won too much, so the only thing they basically have to work with is the "well he had Pippen" ... but so what.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Duncan all had equal or better supporting casts for large portions of their careers. Even Isiah freaking Thomas ... Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Bill Lambeer, and Dantley/Johnson are 4-5 other very good players.

Gimme a break with Jordan having some magical special thing that other great players didn't. None of these other guys won a goddamn thing without loaded teams that were as good or better than the Bulls.

I take McHale + 80s Parish + Walton + Johnson + Ainge over any freaking supporting cast the Bulls had without thinking twice. I take Kareem + Worthy + Cooper + Scott over any version of the Bulls too if building a team around Jordan.

When a player shows up who can win on his own again and again and again in a 5-on-5 sport like basketball, call me. And don't make me laugh by pointing at modern b*tch ass players like LeBron, Durant, and even Kawhi that go running for greener pastures and insist on constantly having extremely high end no.2 options and quite often very good no.3 options too colluded onto their team.

I have always maintained that dynasties win because of alot of talent. The problem is what you stated in this post. On one side, you say that all great teams won with a lot of talent. Whose saying that's not he case? But then you try to paint a narrative as if the Bulls won almost in spite of their talent outside of MJ. That's where the pushback come from.

Then you double down on your folly by saying that you'd take all these teams over the Bulls. But the fact is that we got to see the results of your assessment.

The Celtics SUCKED when Bird got hurt in 89
The Lakers SUCKED when Magic abruptly retired
The Pistons SUCKED when Thomas left
The Lakers SUCKED when Shaq left and didnt get better until they got Pau Gasol.

And all these teams got good players to replace their player that left.

You just cant acknowledge this fact

[Hey Yo]

He wasn't going 100% because it wasn't competitive

MJ saved that for the practices, where he showed everyone who the best was
Jordan on why he passed on the 1996 Olympics"

Olympics, many will play at least into May in the N.B.A. playoffs in the spring of 1994. Seeing the toll that playing internationally has taken physically on Clyde Drexler and Patrick Ewing and hearing Jordan talk of how fatiguing the experience was might influence them to take a pass.

"I don't like giving advice on things like that," said Jordan. "Everybody has their own individual goals. Some players may have goals of representing their country, and if that's the case, they should go. But they should know what they're getting into, a grueling five-week process that will eventually take its toll on you mentally and physically."


Looks like ole MJ had it rough beating up on those International teams, winning by 50 every game. Too imply that their games and times were grueling, taking a huge toll mentally and physically, is a complete fugging joke. But yeah we're supposedly to believe that he would have won 8 titles if he didn't quit the first time?? No chance in hell of that happeneing.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nobody else gets brought up. Because their fan base dont fell impelled to undermine the contributions of his teammates like Jordan fans do.

This. We don't have 10-15 posters marching all over ISH (or social media) each day saying how much Wade, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Cousy, Robinson, West, etc. all sucked.


Jordan dominated the scoring - that's what he did which means less shots for other players.

Exactly. We saw MJ join the team late in the season in 86' and 95'; scoring fell significantly for his teammates as a result. It is obvious why.


The irony is the bulls were the superteam of its time. Which team did the bulls face during the second three peat that had two players in addition to main option who could create their own shot to standard of Pippen & Kukoc? Maybe sonics with Payton & Detlef - that's it & Bulls much better in other areas

None, but they will go around saying every other legend had a super team, which is another reason you get stuff like the OP.


The Magic would've been that team, but it's not Jordan's fault Shaq bailed out.

The Magic won 45 games without Shaq; Chicago 55 without MJ. Orlando got Rony Seiklay to replace Shaq; Chicago Pete Myers. So the one example we always hear of doesn't stand up to scrutiny.


LeBron James has never been the defensive player Michael Jordan was.

The Bulls were the no.1 defence in the NBA in 97-98 WITHOUT Pippen.

You can't have it both ways: point to the Bulls' defensive improvement without Pippen while promoting Jordan, without who the Bulls' defense also improved. :lol

Your comment also invokes the other side of the equation: offense. The Bulls offense declined far more without Pippen than without Jordan. Using your own logic here, what does that tell us relative to the OP?

There is no link for "#1" since Drating ranking data through 35 games isn't available. We do have scoring data and the Bulls were #4 in points allowed.


Pippen was good, probably on the same tier as a Kemp, Mourning, Drexler etc but gets mythicized by fans with an obvious agenda

The MJ echo chamber at it again. In the real world Pippen then, and now, was considered>>>>>>Kemp and Mourning. Drexler was fairly close but there is a reason Pippen is 15 or so spots ahead of him all-time. (Kemp, Mourning, Drexler were all traded and Pippen was in various trade proposals, including involving Kemp. Anyone can look up the trades to see the respective trade value of these players...)

Yet the consensus are the people with the agenda, not the MJ stan rump outliers. :oldlol:

It is interesting, if you say MJ is #2 all-time you are a "Jordan hater" despite being only 1 spot removed from the consensus. When you have Pippen 20-60 spots behind the consensus (Kemp, Mourning) that is "reasonable." #Echochamber


Then you double down on your folly by saying that you'd take all these teams over the Bulls. But the fact is that we got to see the results of your assessment.

The Celtics SUCKED when Bird got hurt in 89
The Lakers SUCKED when Magic abruptly retired
The Pistons SUCKED when Thomas left
The Lakers SUCKED when Shaq left and didnt get better until they got Pau Gasol.

And all these teams got good players to replace their player that left.

The Magic too without Shaq.

[Roundball_Rock]

This. We don't have 10-15 posters marching all over ISH (or social media) each day saying how much Wade, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Cousy, Robinson, West, etc. all sucked.

I would also add there is a consensus on the historical rating/ranking of all these players. You don't see LeBron fans comparing Wade to Kemp or Mourning, as we just saw with Pippen, for example. So since there is a consensus there isn't much to debate about Kobe, West, Cousy, Havlicek, Worthy, Magic, Robinson, you name it. With Pippen there is a consensus too--but because the MJ fan base rump is large and these fans are active on any sports page, Pippen is contested daily, even if it is 80-85% of people in agreement against 15-20%.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

I would also add there is a consensus on the historical rating/ranking of all these players. You don't see LeBron fans comparing Wade to Kemp or Mourning, as we just saw with Pippen, for example. So since there is a consensus there isn't much to debate about Kobe, West, Cousy, Havlicek, Worthy, Magic, Robinson, you name it. With Pippen there is a consensus too--but because the MJ fan base rump is large and these fans are active on any sports page, Pippen is contested daily, even if it is 80-85% of people in agreement against 15-20%.

It wasn't uncommon at the time to hear all these guys rated over Pippen - some people preferred Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson to Pippen

The reality is that MJ dominated every series - only Pippen wet the bed - so every close series was only close because Pippen wet the bed - every series loss was because Pippen wet the bed.. he played badly in every close series or series loss

So if Pippen was equally important to MJ as this YouTuber is asking, then why don't we hold him accountable?.. We blame lebron's teammates whenever lebron loses, so why not blame the so-called "best player other than jordan" when he wets the bed?... It's because subconsciously, you KNOW pippen wet the bed a ton, but this knowledge is hidden in your subconscious memory - it's only released with that pill from the movie "Level", which I'm currently taking.. that's how I see thru the bullshit and you don't..

[Roundball_Rock]

Whatever makes MJ stans sleep better at night. :lol You were debunked earlier in this thread of the course of multiple pages.

Add this to the ledger. No one is comparing Wade to Glenn Robinson or Pau Gasol (the other day).

[3ball]

Whatever makes MJ stans sleep better at night. :lol You were debunked earlier in this thread of the course of multiple pages.

Add this to the ledger. No one is comparing Wade to Glenn Robinson or Pau Gasol (the other day).

No one compares Wade to those guys because Wade was obviously superior

Pippen's isn't and is infact worse.. his play and stats show that, whereas Wade was one of the most dominant FMVP's ever

The data you posted showed 16 guys - Pippen ranked 14th in ppg and 12th in usage, yet you touted the data as if it made Pippen look like a good scorer compared to his peers... Your data is widly inefficient and usually supports an anti-pippen case

[BigShotBob]

Pippen at his "peak" averaged 22 points on 40% shooting against the Knicks in the second round.

/thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

In the real world, Pippen and Wade are ranked together all-time.

[3ball]

In the real world, Pippen and Wade are ranked together all-time.

Wade is the #3 shooting guard all-time

Pippen isn't a top 5 SF

That ends the debate... But let me rub it in

Wade was arguably the most dominant FMVP ever and was #2 in PER and every advanced stat when lebron joined him - Pippen is nowhere near Wade

As 2nd option, Wade's play and accomplishment is also superior - Wade led the Heat in scoring as 2nd option in 2011 and was superior to Pippen in 2012 - only in 13-14' did he come down to Pippen's level

[Roundball_Rock]

:facepalm

Here are the lists that have come out in recent years. Highest ranked players listed first (e..g, Pippen is 21ston ESPN and Nash 30th):

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

But keep comparing him to Glenn Robinson, Mourning, Gasol, and Kemp guys if it makes you feel slightly less insecure. :lol

[BigShotBob]

:facepalm

Here are the lists that have come out in recent years. Highest ranked players listed first (e..g, Pippen is 21ston ESPN and Nash 30th):

Top 21-30

ESPN: Pippen, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, Leonard, Wade, Giannis, Stockton, Iverson, Nash
Slam: K. Malone, Pippen, Wade, Havlicek, Stockton, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, Robinson, Ewing
Backpicks: Paul, Barkley, Durant, Wade, Pippen, M. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Miller

But keep comparing him to Glenn Robinson, Mourning, Gasol, and Kemp guys if it makes you feel slightly less insecure. :lol

Would Wade average 22 points on 40% shooting as the man during his peak?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yet another MJ lie--this time 23 PPG on 43% becomes 20 PPG on 40%. David Robinson, as a center, shot 41% on 20 PPG (down from 30 PPG in the RS) the same season. Ewing, as a center, shot 36% for 19 PPG in a finals the same year.

This is why you never see comparative data. They are dishonest but not necessarily dumb: they know MJ's competition wouldn't hold up under their standards for Pippen (who is held to a much higher standard, implying they consider him vastly better).

The historical verdict is in.

If we want to flyspeck Wade there is ample ammunition there. For instance, the defending champ Heat getting swept in the first round as Wade shots 43%.

One last point on the deception: Wade rarely took 3's. It is asinine to compare his raw FG %.

[BigShotBob]

Yet another MJ lie--this time 23 PPG on 43% becomes 20 PPG on 40%. David Robinson, as a center, shot 41% on 20 PPG (down from 30 PPG in the RS) the same season. Ewing, as a center, shot 36% for 19 PPG in a finals the same year.

This is why you never see comparative data. They are dishonest but not necessarily dumb: they know MJ's competition wouldn't hold up under their standards for Pippen (who is held to a much higher standard, implying they consider him vastly better).

The historical verdict is in.

If we want to flyspeck Wade there is ample ammunition there. For instance, the defending champ Heat getting swept in the first round as Wade shots 43%.

One last point on the deception: Wade rarely took 3's. It is asinine to compare his raw FG %.

Nope. Pippen averaged 21.7 on 41% shooting.

David Robinson was bottle necked by the Jazz that year, but that doesn't excuse Pippen's performance in the slightest.

Meanwhile Hakeem went crazy, Rod Strickland performed better than Pippen did against the Rockets, and so did Chris Mulin, Kevin Johnson, and Charles Barkley to name a few.

Sorry, but it's only a select few that shrinks as things get tougher, and it's Pippen in that bunch.

Pippen can't even shoot 3's well to begin with OR free throws so......that's doing him a favor.

[Roundball_Rock]

More deception. It was 23 PPG in the 94' playoffs. Anyone can look it up--but that he lies even about something quantifiable tells you a lot about him.

Damn, so if Pippen is a choker that further tells us MJ faced joke competition since Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson all fell off much more in the playoffs. Did MJ face any real competition then? :lol

The Rockets thing was a sleight of hand. Pippen didn't play the Rockets.

[BigShotBob]

More deception. It was 23 PPG in the 94' playoffs. Anyone can look it up--but that he lies even about something quantifiable tells you a lot about him.

Damn, so if Pippen is a choker that further tells us MJ faced joke competition since Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson all fell off much more in the playoffs. Did MJ face any real competition then? :lol

The Rockets thing was a sleight of hand. Pippen didn't play the Rockets.

Nope look it up. 21.7 ppg for the "top 10 of the 90's" Pippen.

Malone destroyed the Spurs in 94' btw, as well as Dennis Rodman. Ewing scored 34 points against the Bulls in 94, almost 10 more than Pippen's scoring peak that series. Robinson shrank against the Jazz because they stifled him.

I'm giving examples of perimeter players raising their game when it matters the most. Reggie Miller, Rod Strickland, and Chris Mulin did along with Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson to name a few.

[Soundwave]

I have always maintained that dynasties win because of alot of talent. The problem is what you stated in this post. On one side, you say that all great teams won with a lot of talent. Whose saying that's not he case? But then you try to paint a narrative as if the Bulls won almost in spite of their talent outside of MJ. That's where the pushback come from.

Then you double down on your folly by saying that you'd take all these teams over the Bulls. But the fact is that we got to see the results of your assessment.

The Celtics SUCKED when Bird got hurt in 89
The Lakers SUCKED when Magic abruptly retired
The Pistons SUCKED when Thomas left
The Lakers SUCKED when Shaq left and didnt get better until they got Pau Gasol.

And all these teams got good players to replace their player that left.

You just cant acknowledge this fact

All those teams had extenuating circumstances, mainly age, the Celtics were old by '89, but don't freaking tell me with a straight face that in their peak primes Bird didn't have as much/more help than Jordan did.

That's bull shit.

The Lakers didn't just lose Magic (on top of Kareem a few years earlier), they also lost Worthy to injury for the 91-92 season, he missed more than 25 games and was never the same player after that year.

What are you going to claim now ... that players like Worthy, Lambeer, Kareem, McHale, Parish, etc. were never good and Jordan is the only one that played with good teammates? Gimme a break.

Magic/Bird/Isiah all had the benefit of deeper teams in their primes. Shaq/Kobe had the benefit of far better no.2 options, LeBron/Durant/Kawhi can go super-team and even ditch super-teams for younger models when ever they want.

Injuries happen ... it's not Jordan's fault Bird's back gave out or Magic got AIDS or Worthy had knee problems. The game was more physical back then and the body took a greater beating. The NBA quite frankly let the game get out of control, the amount of punishment teams could dish out to star players was quite frankly embarrassing and probably shortened the careers of many good players.

[Roundball_Rock]

Weak sauce. They are being compared to their prior year's performance, not the 89' Celtics to the 84' Celtics. Using age doesn't cut it.


The Lakers didn't just lose Magic (on top of Kareem a few years earlier), they also lost Worthy to injury for the 91-92 season

They did the same with/without him (actually slightly better without him). They "lost" him on March 1--so they had him deep into the season.


he missed more than 25 games and was never the same player after that year.

He was still good in 92', although his efficiency (like others on the team) cratered without an all-time great passer around. It was argued just days ago that Worthy should have been on the DT. Now we are hearing he was washed up in 92'?


with a straight face that in their peak primes Bird didn't have as much/more help than Jordan did.

They faced real competition. Again and again and again we have to make the painfully obvious point: team strength has to be assessed relative to the competition.

It also is hilarious to see these people bring up injuries for these other teams when they never utter a single word about the injuries the 94' Bulls had. It is pathetic.


Magic/Bird/Isiah all had the benefit of deeper teams in their primes.

Magic, Bird were discussed earlier when they missed full seasons. Isiah missed almost half of 91'. What happened?

Pistons with Isiah: 31-17 (53 win pace; 55 win pace when Zeke started)
Pistons without Isiah: 19-15 (46 win pace)

"Everybody" had more help than poor MJ--their teams just magically always fall into the .500 range without him (or worse for the Lakers and Celtics minus Shaq, Russell) while the Bulls were out there on a 63 win pace when Pippen & Grant played.

What a crock of BS. The real world data speaks for itself but we have MJ stans awarding fictional wins to teams who clearly failed to do it when given the chance.

[Soundwave]

Weak sauce. They are being compared to their prior year's performance, not the 89' Celtics to the 84' Celtics. Using age doesn't cut it.



They did the same with/without him (actually slightly better without him). They "lost" him on March 1--so they had him deep into the season.



He was still good in 92', although his efficiency (like others on the team) cratered without an all-time great passer around. It was argued just days ago that Worthy should have been on the DT. Now we are hearing he was washed up in 92'?



They faced real competition. Again and again and again we have to make the painfully obvious point: team strength has to be assessed relative to the competition.

It also is hilarious to see these people bring up injuries for these other teams when they never utter a single word about the injuries the 94' Bulls had. It is pathetic.



Magic, Bird were discussed earlier when they missed full seasons. Isiah missed almost half of 91'. What happened?

Pistons with Isiah: 31-17 (53 win pace; 55 win pace when Zeke started)
Pistons without Isiah: 19-15 (46 win pace)

"Everybody" had more help than poor MJ--their teams just magically always fall into the .500 range without him (or worse for the Lakers and Celtics minus Shaq, Russell) while the Bulls were out there on a 63 win pace when Pippen & Grant played.

What a crock of BS. The real world data speaks for itself but we have MJ stans awarding fictional wins to teams who clearly failed to do it when given the chance.

There's a huge list of players that were toast by age 31/32/33 ... the NBA in the 80s/early 90s was quite frankly completely out of control, the amount of physical wear and tear players took back then was an embarrassment. Guys like Worthy, Isiah, and others were done early in their careers.

The NBA is quite frankly lucky their golden goose in Jordan didn't get hurt by some dumb play by the Pistons or something because the sport never would've achieved any where near the same popularity.

Also you can't have this arguement both ways ... so the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons all "sucked" because of their records after a certain point ... but we must worship at the altar of Scottie Pippen? You can't have that both ways. You claim that you're all gung ho about making sure supporting casts get their due, and now you're going to say Isiah/Bird/Magic were really the only main players on those teams, but somehow this doesn't apply to the Bulls?

Magic, Bird, and Isiah DID have deeper teams than Jordan ever did. Anyone trying to deny that is a f**king liar. There were issues of age/injury for all three of those teams as they got into their 30s, which tells you how much of a gong show the physicality of the NBA was in the 80s.

[Reggie43]

The MJ echo chamber at it again. In the real world Pippen then, and now, was considered>>>>>>Kemp and Mourning. Drexler was fairly close but there is a reason Pippen is 15 or so spots ahead of him all-time. (Kemp, Mourning, Drexler were all traded and Pippen was in various trade proposals, including involving Kemp. Anyone can look up the trades to see the respective trade value of these players...)

Yet the consensus are the people with the agenda, not the MJ stan rump outliers. :oldlol:

It is interesting, if you say MJ is #2 all-time you are a "Jordan hater" despite being only 1 spot removed from the consensus. When you have Pippen 20-60 spots behind the consensus (Kemp, Mourning) that is "reasonable".

Using alltime rankings to compare Pippen to Kemp, Drexler, Mourning :facepalm Are they not close in actual impact and ability?

Imagine what their rankings would be if they were lucky enough to have played with the Goat and each has close to 6 rings each?

Like I said these Pippen "fans" mythicized him as if he was at his peak in all their runs and acting like only a Pippen could have helped Jordan win those rings.

[Roundball_Rock]

so the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons all "sucked" because of their records after a certain point ... but we must worship at the altar of Scottie Pippen?

Good point. That isn't accurate phrasing. For a team to lose a GOAT-caliber player and to still be a playoff level team is actually a sign the team was legitimately good. It doesn't meet the bar set by the Bulls but is good in absolute terms.


Magic, Bird, and Isiah DID have deeper teams

Irrelevant since they were competing for chips in different times, with the brief exception of overlap that ended in 91'. The Bulls won a much more watered down era due to expansion so we can't compare 80's rosters to post-expansion ones.


Using alltime rankings to compare Pippen to Kemp, Drexler, Mourning Are they not close in actual impact and ability?

Nope--outside of Jordanstan no one considers Kemp, Mourning comparable to Pippen. Drexler? Sure.

The trade packages as well as accolades tell the tale. Pippen had by the most trade value of the four because he was considered the best of the group then.


acting like only a Pippen could have helped Jordan win those rings.

I'm on record as saying MJ could have won 1-2 with Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ's Leadership style was too hostile. There is a reason no leader/motivational lessons include yanking on your colleagues.

This is one of the greatest leaders of all time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGshFwJKb7g

Firm, strong, encouraging/inspiring, and comforting in the end.

Moutinho did shoot a penalty, he made it, and they won the shootout, with Ronaldo making it as well.

A few days later they were European Champions.

[Soundwave]

MJ's Leadership style was too hostile. There is a reason no leader/motivational lessons include yanking on your colleagues.

This is one of the greatest leaders of all time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGshFwJKb7g

Firm, strong, encouraging/inspiring, and comforting in the end.

Moutinho did shoot a penalty, he made it, and they won the shootout, with Ronaldo making it as well.

A few days later they were European Champions.

The Bulls didn't have the luxury of being coddled with moutains of talent from day 1, they had to work their way from the bottom up to become anything.

If Jordan was gifted Magic or Bird or Isiah's supporting cast early in his career, probably he would have been more mellow. He seems like a mellow guy normally actually and in UNC but UNC always had a good amount of talent. In hyper competetive situations, yes a killer does come out.

Being a soft-ass on a bad team doesn't work, all you're doing is encouraging shit habits and becoming comfortable/ok with losing and once that culture becomes established you're f**ked, I don't care how much talent you get later on.

You have to hate losing if you want to ever become great in pro sports, and that fire has to burn twice as hot if you're put into a situation where things are not all peachy sunshine.

[aceman]

The Bulls didn't have the luxury of being coddled with moutains of talent from day 1, they had to work their way from the bottom up to become anything.

If Jordan was gifted Magic or Bird or Isiah's supporting cast early in his career, probably he would have been more mellow. He seems like a mellow guy normally actually and in UNC but UNC always had a good amount of talent. In hyper competetive situations, yes a killer does come out.

Being a soft-ass on a bad team doesn't work, all you're doing is encouraging shit habits and becoming comfortable/ok with losing and once that culture becomes established you're f**ked, I don't care how much talent you get later on.

You have to hate losing if you want to ever become great in pro sports, and that fire has to burn twice as hot if you're put into a situation where things are not all peachy sunshine.

So now blue collar pistons more talented than bulls? Rewriting of history never stops

[Roundball_Rock]

So now blue collar pistons more talented than bulls? Rewriting of history never stops

It is shameless.

It also ignores the talent the Bulls had before Pippen. Woolridge scored more than Pippen did (the only metric MJ stans define players by :lol ), Daintley was 16 as a third option, Oakley was there putting up 20/15 in the playoffs, etc. It wasn't MJ and scrubs.

[Phoenix]

So now blue collar pistons more talented than bulls? Rewriting of history never stops

You taking Grant, Cartright, Paxson,BJ, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Hodges....over Rodman, Dantley( then Aquirre), Laimbeer, Microwave, Salley, and Edwards? I've removed MJ/Pip and Isiah/Dumars as the two best players on each side.

I'll just note that in 89, the Pistons had 4 hall of fame players. In 90 they had 3 all-stars. Don't let the dirty rep detract from their talent level.

[97 bulls]

All those teams had extenuating circumstances, mainly age, the Celtics were old by '89, but don't freaking tell me with a straight face that in their peak primes Bird didn't have as much/more help than Jordan did.

That's bull shit.

The Lakers didn't just lose Magic (on top of Kareem a few years earlier), they also lost Worthy to injury for the 91-92 season, he missed more than 25 games and was never the same player after that year.

What are you going to claim now ... that players like Worthy, Lambeer, Kareem, McHale, Parish, etc. were never good and Jordan is the only one that played with good teammates? Gimme a break.

Magic/Bird/Isiah all had the benefit of deeper teams in their primes. Shaq/Kobe had the benefit of far better no.2 options, LeBron/Durant/Kawhi can go super-team and even ditch super-teams for younger models when ever they want.

Injuries happen ... it's not Jordan's fault Bird's back gave out or Magic got AIDS or Worthy had knee problems. The game was more physical back then and the body took a greater beating. The NBA quite frankly let the game get out of control, the amount of punishment teams could dish out to star players was quite frankly embarrassing and probably shortened the careers of many good players.

Michael Jordan retiring a few weeks before the season starting isnt an extenuating circumstance? I mean come on.

The rest of your post makes no sense as a response to what I was responding to. You said you take certain teams over the Bulls cast when all the best players are removed. Which is honestly a but confusing seeing as how we got to see how these teams would do without their best players. Are you simply saying your decision is based because you just like the players better? Because it certainly can't be due to results.

And please stop with the they were old argument. Those teams were still competing for a championship the previous year with their best player on the squad.

[Roundball_Rock]

Michael Jordan retiring a few weeks before the season starting isnt an extenuating circumstance? I mean come on.

The rest of your post makes no sense as a response to what I was responding to. You said you take certain teams over the Bulls cast when all the best players are removed. Which is honestly a but confusing seeing as how we got to see how these teams would do without their best players. Are you simply saying your decision is based because you just like the players better? Because it certainly can't be due to results.

And please stop with the they were old argument. Those teams were still competing for a championship the previous year with their best player on the squad.

:applause:

He mentions all these factors for the other teams but nothing about the 94' Bulls' injuries, MJ bouncing at the last minute so they couldn't replace him like all these other teams (except Magic due to HIV), or that the Bulls were hosed with an all-time bad foul call that likely cost them a finals trips.

[aceman]

You taking Grant, Cartright, Paxson,BJ, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Hodges....over Rodman, Dantley( then Aquirre), Laimbeer, Microwave, Salley, and Edwards? I've removed MJ/Pip and Isiah/Dumars as the two best players on each side.

I'll just note that in 89, the Pistons had 4 hall of fame players. In 90 they had 3 all-stars. Don't let the dirty rep detract from their talent level.

Bulls were gifted finesse team with Jordan & Pippen. Even Grant a power forward was known for agility & trap defense. Pistons couldn't match them or most teams athletically & played tough d to slow opponents

[3ball]

Using alltime rankings to compare Pippen to Kemp, Drexler, Mourning :facepalm Are they not close in actual impact and ability?

Imagine what their rankings would be if they were lucky enough to have played with the Goat and each has close to 6 rings each?

Like I said these Pippen "fans" mythicized him as if he was at his peak in all their runs and acting like only a Pippen could have helped Jordan win those rings.

The truth

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls were gifted finesse team with Jordan & Pippen. Even Grant a power forward was known for agility & trap defense. Pistons couldn't match them or most teams athletically & played tough d to slow opponents

We saw the Pistons without Isiah for about half a season; they became a 46 win team. The Bulls without MJ, were 55 wins and a whopping 63 win pace when Pippen & Grant actually played. It is obvious which "cast" was superior.

[aceman]

The truth

Pippen was selected above all those players in dream team 1 & 3