Whats the best team the 90s Bulls beat in the Finals? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ELITEpower23

06-01-2020, 07:49 PM

I'm going to venture a careful guess that you won't get many responses from Jordan fans because they don't really have anything to boast about with regard to finals opponents. It's possible to say that Michael Jordan was undefeated because he didn't beat anybody worth mentioning. The only times he ever did face a tough opponent was against Boston and Detroit and he lost miserably to both of them. No he lost the Larry Bird six times in a row in the playoffs, never beat him a single game but I can't hold that against Jordan because he didn't have Scottie Pippen yet. We all know how much he needed Scotty. Even still, against the Detroit Pistons he did have Scottie Pippen and he still lost three years in a row again. So who knows. I guess his best finals opponent is the Seattle SuperSonics not very impressive but what can you say, it was the 1990s.

Whoah10115

06-01-2020, 08:03 PM

How many more times is this thread going to be created?

2ball

06-01-2020, 08:09 PM

MJ beat his competition. However had he gone 3-9 in the finals we could make excuses for good competition

Axe

06-01-2020, 08:09 PM

How many more times is this thread going to be created?
Rough estimate would be 1000000000 times

light

06-01-2020, 09:27 PM

90s team's were NOTORIOUS for being only 6 deep of legitimate players by today's standards. I personally think it was the Phoenix Suns, who do you guys think?

Sadly for MJ it's the Jazz and they sucked.

light

06-01-2020, 09:28 PM

MJ beat his competition. However had he gone 3-9 in the finals we could make excuses for good competition

When Jordan played with similar competition he couldnt even get to the Finals.

goozeman

06-02-2020, 01:22 PM

It is easily the Suns. Barkley was the only single player the Bulls ever faced in the playoffs dynamic and impactful by himself enough to take over a game in a similar fashion to Jordan. Matter of fact, if Cedric Ceballos doesn't get hurt in the WCF, I think they beat the Bulls. It took Jordan averaging 41 just to keep pace with the Suns and the net differential in scoring was still zero. Loss of Ceballos took the Suns from a an all-time great offense to a merely very good one. Ceballos had already lite up the Bulls for 27 early in the year and he was very capable of scorer as a starter or coming off the bench. While not a great defender, he was still athletic wing defender the Suns sorely needed in that series. Those Suns teams were just snakebite by injuries, but had luck been a little different Barkley would have won two or three ships.

ImKobe

06-02-2020, 02:12 PM

MJ beat his competition. However had he gone 3-9 in the finals we could make excuses for good competition

MjJ didn't go 3-9 because he was a superior player.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 02:19 PM

When Jordan played with similar competition he couldnt even get to the Finals.

MJ never played with similar competition and not win a title. All the teams he lost to in the playoffs, EVERY team he lost to, had a better team than he did that season. It's not even a question from 85 to 89. In 90 the Bulls were close and who knows what happens if Pip doesnt get the migraine. 95, the Magic were a better team than Chicago than season. MJ didn't have many 'uphill' victories but he also never lost in situations he was supposed to win either.

Roundball_Rock

06-02-2020, 02:46 PM

This question comes up a lot but there is never an answer because they all were the same milquetoast variety. The Bulls' had no rival in the 90's as no other great team existed.

Who was the 90's Bulls best competition? For that you have to look outside the finals to the Knicks IMO.

MJ never played with similar competition and not win a title. All the teams he lost to in the playoffs, EVERY team he lost to, had a better team than he did that season. It's not even a question from 85 to 89. In 90 the Bulls were close and who knows what happens if Pip doesnt get the migraine. 95, the Magic were a better team than Chicago than season

A lot of that is retrofitted onto the outcomes, though. The Bulls went 13-4 with Jordan in 95' and 24-10 after the all-star break. No one thought they were chopped liver going into the Orlando series.

The 90' Bulls were the same team that won the next year. According to many MJ fans, if Pippen didn't have a migraine the Bulls would have won (ironically, implying Pippen was worth turning an 18 point loss into a win). So with that team there are two narratives: 1) they weren't ready 2) they were better but had bad luck with the migraine.

Personally I would say the Pistons and Magic were better but it isn't as clear cut as it is made out to be to fit the MJ narrative after the fact.

Manny98

06-02-2020, 02:59 PM

The 93 Suns who struggled to beat a 30 win Lakers team in the first round is MJ toughest finals comp? :yaohappy:

Yikes

light

06-02-2020, 03:05 PM

MJ never played with similar competition and not win a title. All the teams he lost to in the playoffs, EVERY team he lost to, had a better team than he did that season. It's not even a question from 85 to 89. In 90 the Bulls were close and who knows what happens if Pip doesnt get the migraine. 95, the Magic were a better team than Chicago than season. MJ didn't have many 'uphill' victories but he also never lost in situations he was supposed to win either.

He was supposed to be able to beat the better teams anyway. Like LeBron. Like the GOAT. But MJ couldn't - he always lost against better teams - and that's the point.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 03:25 PM

He was supposed to be able to beat the better teams anyway. Like LeBron. Like the GOAT. But MJ couldn't - he always lost against better teams - and that's the point.

That's the worst thing you can say though. That MJ didnt beat teams that had a massive talent edge over his own teams. No real upsets. Basically, based on odds, he didnt win when he shouldnt have....but he also didnt lose when he shouldn't havent either. Theres no 2011s. Theres no losing 3 times with HCA. He held serve on the occasions he was expected to. Not sure why this is a negative.

Also, the 89 Bulls weren't better than the Cavs, IIRC they got their asses handed to them during the regular season. And the Bulls won that series on the famous 'the shot'. By 91, he was the best player on the best team. And they won every year except 95, again by a Magic squad that was perfectly good enough to do so.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 03:30 PM

This question comes up a lot but there is never an answer because they all were the same milquetoast variety. The Bulls' had no rival in the 90's as no other great team existed.

Who was the 90's Bulls best competition? For that you have to look outside the finals to the Knicks IMO.

A lot of that is retrofitted onto the outcomes, though. The Bulls went 13-4 with Jordan in 95' and 24-10 after the all-star break. No one thought they were chopped liver going into the Orlando series.

The 90' Bulls were the same team that won the next year. According to many MJ fans, if Pippen didn't have a migraine the Bulls would have won (ironically, implying Pippen was worth turning an 18 point loss into a win). So with that team there are two narratives: 1) they weren't ready 2) they were better but had bad luck with the migraine.

Personally I would say the Pistons and Magic were better but it isn't as clear cut as it is made out to be to fit the MJ narrative after the fact.

No, Chicago wasn't chopped liver heading into the playoffs, but I dont think it's some major shockwave in the annuals of history that Orlando won. They were the better team season long and with no PF upfront, I don't think Chicagi had the better team in the moment. And I honestly feel that would have been the case even had MJ played that season. The Bulls lack of a front court hurt them.

As for Pippen in 90, I don't know if him being healthy changes the outcome. Nobody else crucial showed up in that game either. Grant was a no-show. I do think if everyone was playing to capacity theres a chance Chicago takes that game but its just speculation. I'm not going to sit here and say it's a definitive win if Pip was healthy.

Round Mound

06-02-2020, 03:31 PM

The 96 Sonics

JBSptfn

06-02-2020, 03:38 PM

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 03:58 PM

I don't think the 90's Bulls got anyone at what we would call their "best". In the case of the 91 Lakers, 92 Blazers, and 97-98 Jazz, they had earlier versions that were better teams (80's Lakers, 90 and 91 Blazers, 92 Jazz). In the case of the 93 Suns and 96 Sonics, Chicago had way more finals experience.

Both of those teams were the best version of those squads in the 90s. So Chicago did get them at their best; they just happened to be more championship tested but the same could be said for the 91 Bulls beating the Lakers. They were a more battle tested team and Chicago won. That's kind of how it goes with any season, you're not going to always get the peak versions of teams heading off every year. Finals that feature both teams AND stars at their peak is rare. It's why the 80s Celtics/Lakers battles are so highly regarded.

Docs Orders

06-02-2020, 04:05 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/Y040ywmt/9bap21wb6hhnuhfr7hmqqnmd0s7lztzrjerkfh6d5t0q8uvpai wcvrlowmt4vqh6.jpg

:oldlol::roll:

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 04:11 PM

:oldlol::roll:

https://media.giphy.com/media/9IBNGxM1Ixlzq/giphy.gif

There you go. Now go deepthroat a shotgun.

Soundwave

06-02-2020, 04:13 PM

The Magic would have beat the Sonics in the 96 Finals and Shaq would've stayed in Orlando completely altering the course of basketball history. A baseball strike basically set off a chain reaction that doomed the Magic franchise.

The Magic were supposed to be the next dynasty franchise, anyone who actually grew up in the 90s knows that. The hype around them was immense. Not Jordan's fault that Shaq went running out of the East after getting spanked.

The progression was supposed to go Celtics/Lakers to Pistons to Bulls to Magic. The Bulls didn't cooperate with that. And I highly suspect the NBA rigged the 1993 draft lottery trying to gift Orlando Chris Webber (they took Penny because Shaq insisted) to ensure Orlando would be the next marquee franchise.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 04:17 PM

The Magic would have beat the Sonics in the 96 Finals and Shaq would've stayed in Orlando completely altering the course of basketball history. A baseball strike basically set off a chain reaction that doomed the Magic franchise.

That's my take on that hypothetical as well. Think it would have been too much Shaq in that series, which neutralizes what Kemp brings to the table.

goozeman

06-02-2020, 04:38 PM

The 93 Suns who struggled to beat a 30 win Lakers team in the first round is MJ toughest finals comp? :yaohappy:

Yikes

Barkley's first year. The Suns were working out their playoff rotation. Lakers still had 31-year-old veterans in Scott, Green, and Worthy. Playoff basketball is not regular season. Context matters. Kind of like how ya'll and this board in general throws out stats comparing alpha-dogs first options with second bananas without context. As if a player taking virtually all the meaningful shots in the fourth is going to average a bunch of overrated assists and worthless uncontested defensive rebounds. :facepalm If I put an average person on an NBA court they might even get an assist or two or maybe pickup a rebound, but I bet they would not score a point, ever, unless they were allowed to score. Scoring is by far the hardest thing to do in a competitive game of basketball. People who actually played know this, etc. Likewise, knowing how to win as a team matters.

Also, Suns still had to go through Robinson led Spurs and Sonics who were ranked 4th and 2nd in offense and defense respectively. Look how Suns jumped up all over Rockets in 94 and 95 (again these were injured Suns teams) going up 2-0 and then 3-1 next year, and compare that to how Houston throttled the Knicks defensively and SWEPT an Orlando team that easily knocked the Bulls out of the playoffs. Either Houston or the Suns would have been by far the best teams the Bulls could have played in the mid-90's.

Manny98

06-02-2020, 05:27 PM

:oldlol::roll:

:roll:

Manny98

06-02-2020, 05:33 PM

Let's also not forget that the Sun's were missing their starting small forward and Barkley was playing hobbled for the bulk of the series

I would probably say the Sonics were the Bulls toughest competition as they had a player that could slow down MJ in Payton and Kemp was giving them problems all series

The 96 version of the Bulls were their best version on paper and the Sonics still managed to take them a grueling 6 games. That speaks volumes of how good those Sonics were

gonzaldo

06-02-2020, 06:27 PM

Sonics were chokers, but on paper they could be the best team bulls faced and that year they swept 4-0 two times reigning champions, so they were chokers no more for a brief moment. Kemp, Payton, Schrempf were 3 all nba players, then they had a solid veteran in perkins, an excellent 3pt shooter in hawkins and defender in nate - if he doesnt get injured who knows may be the end result would have been slightly different.

Roundball_Rock

06-02-2020, 07:07 PM

No, Chicago wasn't chopped liver heading into the playoffs, but I dont think it's some major shockwave in the annuals of history that Orlando won. They were the better team season long and with no PF upfront, I don't think Chicagi had the better team in the moment.

I agree on substance. My point was the "Jordan never lost with a better team" /"Jordan never lost with a championship caliber team" stuff is a bit self-fulfilling: whenever the Bulls lost the team automatically is deemed to not be up to par after the fact. That logic could be applied to anyone in a sport where the best team nearly always wins.

The Magic would have beat the Sonics in the 96 Finals

The team that got swept would beat the team that won 2 games against what some consider the GOAT team?

The issue with the Sonics, Suns is they were one hit wonders. The Lakers were on the tail end of a long run. That leaves the Jazz and Blazers.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 07:56 PM

The team that got swept would beat the team that won 2 games against what some consider the GOAT team?

The issue with the Sonics, Suns is they were one hit wonders. The Lakers were on the tail end of a long run. That leaves the Jazz and Blazers.

These things come down to matchups. I think the two teams line up pretty well overall. Where I'd lean Orlando is the Sonics primary points of attack( Kemp upfront, Payton in the backcourt) is neutralized by Shaq and Penny. Shaqs gonna be the one singularly dominant force that there's no answer for, so Kemp doing 20/12 or whatever is going to get 30/14 or something like that thrown back at him. That edge only widens if Horace is healthy. All the other key matchups more or less balance out. Penny and Glove will mostly cancel out, as will Anderson vs Hawkins, Detlef and Dennis Scott, and the benches dont hold any major edges either way. I think this is one situation where when all else is roughly equal, theres no opposing force for Shaq.

As for the Sonics and Suns being one hit wonders, there was a lot of parity with those teams and Houston ( and Utah but they didnt really break out till 97). They were always knocking each other out. Phoenix beats Seattle who beats Houston sort of thing, so no dominant team was really emerging other than Houston breaking through those 2 years. In fact Seattle beat the Rockets on either side of their championships. Just the way teams match up. Alot of people say Houston beats Chicago, but Chicago beat Seattle. Soooo....yeah lol.

Roundball_Rock

06-02-2020, 08:06 PM

FWIW, in 96' the teams split their season series 1-1. 95' had the same core with Penny emerged as a star (unlike 94'). Orlando went 0-2 in those games.

As for the Sonics and Suns being one hit wonders, there was a lot of parity with those teams and Houston ( and Utah but they didnt really break out till 97). They were always knocking each other out

There was a lot of parity in the league overall once you removed MJ from the Bulls, as 94' showed. In the West you had the Sonics, Suns, Rockets, Jazz plus the Spurs. The Blazers stopped contending after 92' but had a real run before that (2 finals and 3 WCF), which the Sonics, Suns could not match.

I wouldn't call Houston dominant. They had several 7 game squeakers en route to those rings and they never had the best record in their conference. They were the best team of course but not in a dominating fashion.

ELITEpower23

06-02-2020, 08:20 PM

Hard to pick which turd is the least smelly I guess. 90s ball was all about Cracker Jack prize rings. Yikes.

Phoenix

06-02-2020, 08:34 PM

FWIW, in 96' the teams split their season series 1-1. 95' had the same core with Penny emerged as a star (unlike 94'). Orlando went 0-2 in those games.

There was a lot of parity in the league overall once you removed MJ from the Bulls, as 94' showed. In the West you had the Sonics, Suns, Rockets, Jazz plus the Spurs. The Blazers stopped contending after 92' but had a real run before that (2 finals and 3 WCF), which the Sonics, Suns could not match.

I wouldn't call Houston dominant. They had several 7 game squeakers en route to those rings and they never had the best record in their conference. They were the best team of course but not in a dominating fashion.

Sorry, I wasnt intending to mean Houston was dominant. I should clarify they were the team that managed to distance themselves from the pack and break through with the back to back finals runs.The way how matchups went in 94 and 95 they were able to break through. For all we know if Seattle had faced them those seasons maybe they don't get to the finals either year. Or maybe they get the Sonics one of those years. If memory serves they were down 3-1 each of those seasons? I remember Phoenix had them down 3-1 one year, I dont recall if it was 94 or 95 and if it happened both seasons. But yeah they had some close encounters which again, speaks to the parity of those teams. A few different ball bounces may have changed the winner in a few cases.

Roundball_Rock

06-02-2020, 08:43 PM

Sorry, I wasnt intending to mean Houston was dominant. I should clarify they were the team that managed to distance themselves from the pack and break through with the back to back finals runs.The way how matchups went in 94 and 95 they were able to break through. For all we know if Seattle had faced them those seasons maybe they don't get to the finals either year. Or maybe they get the Sonics one of those years. If memory serves they were down 3-1 each of those seasons? I remember Phoenix had them down 3-1 one year, I dont recall if it was 94 or 95 and if it happened both seasons. But yeah they had some close encounters which again, speaks to the parity of those teams. A few different ball bounces may have changed the winner in a few cases.

Good points. One disagreement: the Sonics couldn't even get out the first round in 94' and 95'. Yeah in theory if they did they could have made noise but losing in the first round as a 63 win 1 seed and a 57 win team is inexcusable, especially given how great we hear Payton and Kemp were.

ELITEpower23

06-02-2020, 09:41 PM

The 93 Suns who struggled to beat a 30 win Lakers team in the first round is MJ toughest finals comp? :yaohappy:

Yikes

You know what it is: ANOTHER ONE

https://media.giphy.com/media/9JADZJpiRRgUVDWiWs/giphy.gif

Duncan21formvp

06-02-2020, 09:58 PM

The team that beat Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, then Robinson/Duncan and then Shaq/Kobe/Van Exel/Jones. Lebron couldn't even beat Dwight Howard.

Phoenix

06-03-2020, 03:32 AM

Good points. One disagreement: the Sonics couldn't even get out the first round in 94' and 95'. Yeah in theory if they did they could have made noise but losing in the first round as a 63 win 1 seed and a 57 win team is inexcusable, especially given how great we hear Payton and Kemp were.

Ah yes, the famous 'Mutumbo on the ground crying and clutching the ball' series. I remember how crazy that was at the time. I didn't even remember Seattle losing in the first round in 95 but looking back it was the Lakers with Ceballos, Van Exel, Eddie Jones and Co. Weird losing to that team one year then getting right to the finals the next. But, I suppose it was why it was called the wild west back then for that reason.

ELITEpower23

06-05-2020, 08:15 PM

answer = no one special.. Reason why saying Jordan is 6-0 in the finals is so over-rated..

This

Duncan21formvp

06-05-2020, 09:08 PM

Doesn't lose to a team that had old ass players in the Spurs in 2014 nor the Mavs in 2011 where Jason Terry outplays you.

ELITEpower23

06-05-2020, 09:23 PM

Doesn't lose to a team that had old ass players in the Spurs in 2014 nor the Mavs in 2011 where Jason Terry outplays you.

Whats the best team the 90s Bulls beat in the Finals?

Duncan21formvp

06-05-2020, 09:27 PM

Whats the best team the 90s Bulls beat in the Finals?

The team that beat Prime Duncan/Robinson in 5.

Roundball_Rock

06-05-2020, 09:35 PM

The team that beat Prime Duncan/Robinson in 5.

In other words, the team that lost in the second round the following year despite tying for the best record.

Duncan21formvp

06-05-2020, 09:41 PM

In other words, the team that lost in the second round the following year despite tying for the best record.

In other words the team that lost in round 1 the year after they won the title in 2011 and 2014 that smoked Lebron in the finals. And the team that got smoked in the gold medal game in 2006 that beat Team USA with prime Lebron on it. :lol

Elosha

06-05-2020, 10:31 PM

the 90 bulls never beat anyone in the finals,they got beat by the pistions,cause jordan was a ball hog.

thread make no sense

Dude... time for reading comprehension 101. Are you another Simon-alt? You are exhibiting the same lack of intelligence. :facepalm

TAZORAC

06-09-2020, 04:08 PM

Whoah10115

06-09-2020, 04:36 PM

I agree..from top to bottom its the Suns, and with Ceballos in the line up he takes them over the top. Also the Bulls wouldn't have beaten the Magic in 96 if Anderson wasn't hurt.

:roll:

Rico2016

06-10-2020, 01:32 AM

No one really. I guess it would have to be Ewing Starks Knicks.

Roundball_Rock

06-10-2020, 10:12 AM

Maybe it is the Suns but "easily" stretches it. What did the Suns do outside of that one year?

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

06-10-2020, 10:31 AM

Maybe it is the Suns but "easily" stretches it. What did the Suns do outside of that one year?

Has nothing to do with the OP. Unless age and attrition are foreign concepts to you, the '93 Suns are a good candidate.

With Ceballos they're even stronger.

TAZORAC

06-11-2020, 04:33 PM

A healthy Magic team had the best starting 5, the Knicks and Suns were the deepest

Lebron23

06-11-2020, 04:34 PM

A healthy Magic team had the best starting 5, the Knicks and Suns were the deepest

Horace grant only played 1 game against the bulls in the playoffs.

TAZORAC

06-21-2020, 04:11 AM

Horace grant only played 1 game against the bulls in the playoffs.

I think a healthy Magic beat the Bulls in 96. Nick Anderson was hurt too...I think he played 3 games.

Nikola_

06-21-2020, 10:46 AM

1993 and 1998 finals was insanely close

Rico2016

06-21-2020, 10:51 AM

1993 and 1998 finals was insanely close

98 was due to MJ / Iverson chucking on poor efficiencies
93 because he actually played a good team, swap KJ and Pip and Bulls lose.

BigShotBob

06-21-2020, 10:54 AM

98 was due to MJ / Iverson chucking on poor efficiencies
93 because he actually played a good team, swap KJ and Pip and Bulls lose.

Pippen would be shut down hard by MJ. Literally have him crying on the bench.

Manny98

06-21-2020, 10:55 AM

https://media3.giphy.com/media/nPObsTmeSTBv2/giphy.gif

Roundball_Rock

06-21-2020, 11:06 AM

1993 and 1998 finals was insanely close

In the sense that a game 7 almost happened but in both series the Bulls staked out a 3-1 lead. Pippen getting injured in Game 5 changed the tenor of the final two games in 98'. Kukoc was red hot in Game 5 but Jordan intercepted the pass for the final shot (intended for Kukoc) and missed it. If he doesn't do that the Bulls may have won in 5. Because it is MJ we never hear about it but can you imagine if anyone else intercepted his own team's pass for the game winning shot and then proceeded to miss? Not exactly "Havlicek stole the ball" from MJ.

Literally have him crying on the bench.

Isn't that what Curry was seen doing? :lol