Is Kawhi's best all around season (2020) somehow flying under the radar?

[Clippersfan86]

This year is the first year where Kawhi really doesn't have any holes in his game. Due to such dominance from Giannis/Lebron/Harden/Luka and a few other guys, somehow I think Kawhi's all around campaign has gone somewhat unnoticed. If you look at the raw numbers and metrics it's his best scoring season (2nd best efficiency campaign based on volume and usage probably). He's also having his best defensive season in 3 years. The biggest thing though is his evolution as a playmaker. The one big hole in his game in his prior couple elite campaigns was he was a 3+D guy with no real playmaking/primary ballhandler ability. This year he's being tasked with basically running a lot of Point Forward and setting up the offense.

He's #2 in RAPTOR, #4 in WAR, #2 in PIPM, #4 in RPM, #6 WS/48, #3 BPM. Most impressive of all is he only plays 32 MPG (2 less than the prior year) to have this impact. He is putting up 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2 steals PER 36. Kawhi going into the season was probably overhyped to some degree, but do you agree that it's kind of reversed now and he's probably not getting enough credit? Despite a ton of injuries and lineups all year, Clips basically are the 3rd best team in the NBA (Although with a healthy starting 5 they have similar metrics to the Bucks for #1), top 5 on both ends. That's with PG missing 23 games, Pat Bev missed 16, Kawhi missed 13 (8 of which were load management I believe), Shamet missed 17.

[LoneyROY7]

This year is the first year where Kawhi really doesn't have any holes in his game. Due to such dominance from Giannis/Lebron/Harden/Luka and a few other guys, somehow I think Kawhi's all around campaign has gone somewhat unnoticed. If you look at the raw numbers and metrics it's his best scoring season (2nd best efficiency campaign based on volume and usage probably). He's also having his best defensive season in 3 years. The biggest thing though is his evolution as a playmaker. The one big hole in his game in his prior couple elite campaigns was he was a 3+D guy with no real playmaking/primary ballhandler ability. This year he's being tasked with basically running a lot of Point Forward and setting up the offense.

He's #2 in RAPTOR, #4 in WAR, #2 in PIPM, #4 in RPM, #6 WS/48, #3 BPM. Most impressive of all is he only plays 32 MPG (2 less than the prior year) to have this impact. He is putting up 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2 steals PER 36. Kawhi going into the season was probably overhyped to some degree, but do you agree that it's kind of reversed now and he's probably not getting enough credit? Despite a ton of injuries and lineups all year, Clips basically are the 3rd best team in the NBA (Although with a healthy starting 5 they have similar metrics to the Bucks for #1), top 5 on both ends. That's with PG missing 23 games, Pat Bev missed 16, Kawhi missed 13 (8 of which were load management I believe), Shamet missed 17.

He's having a great season. Back-to-back basically 27 ppg seasons (this year 27/7/5) on good percentages is starting to build up his regular season resume as well.

[warriorfan]

He has probably been the best player in the league for at least the last 5 seasons

[Axe]

He would have been much better if not for that load management he's undergoing periodically but i guess that's life.

[light]

This year is the first year where Kawhi really doesn't have any holes in his game. Due to such dominance from Giannis/Lebron/Harden/Luka and a few other guys, somehow I think Kawhi's all around campaign has gone somewhat unnoticed. If you look at the raw numbers and metrics it's his best scoring season (2nd best efficiency campaign based on volume and usage probably). He's also having his best defensive season in 3 years. The biggest thing though is his evolution as a playmaker. The one big hole in his game in his prior couple elite campaigns was he was a 3+D guy with no real playmaking/primary ballhandler ability. This year he's being tasked with basically running a lot of Point Forward and setting up the offense.

He's #2 in RAPTOR, #4 in WAR, #2 in PIPM, #4 in RPM, #6 WS/48, #3 BPM. Most impressive of all is he only plays 32 MPG (2 less than the prior year) to have this impact. He is putting up 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2 steals PER 36. Kawhi going into the season was probably overhyped to some degree, but do you agree that it's kind of reversed now and he's probably not getting enough credit? Despite a ton of injuries and lineups all year, Clips basically are the 3rd best team in the NBA (Although with a healthy starting 5 they have similar metrics to the Bucks for #1), top 5 on both ends. That's with PG missing 23 games, Pat Bev missed 16, Kawhi missed 13 (8 of which were load management I believe), Shamet missed 17.

It's flying under the radar because best Kawhi is not actually that good.

Kawhi and his buddy PG are both overrated.

[Clippersfan86]

He would have been much better if not for that load management he's undergoing periodically but i guess that's life.

If Kawhi didn't load manage I believe the Clippers have a similar record right now to the Lakers. Right now they are projected to win 58 according to 538 (if we had 82 games obviously), but realistically if you extrapolate from them being healthy the 12 times or whatever, they are more like a 65 win team statistically. Then again, their inexcusable losses to bad teams WITH Kawhi has been problematic as well. They have some real head scratching losses, such as getting blown out by the Kings TWICE.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is because he takes so many games off. What would his stats be if he played regularly, versus taking every 4th game off?

[Axe]

If Kawhi didn't load manage I believe the Clippers have a similar record right now to the Lakers. Right now they are projected to win 58 according to 538 (if we had 82 games obviously), but realistically if you extrapolate from them being healthy the 12 times or whatever, they are more like a 65 win team statistically. Then again, their inexcusable losses to bad teams WITH Kawhi has been problematic as well. They have some real head scratching losses, such as getting blown out by the Kings TWICE.
In short, they're not consistent.

Also, they haven't had a winning streak of more than 7 games in this season.

[LoneyROY7]

How bout them LA boyz, doe?

Harden, Kawhi, Russ, Klay, and PG.

Cali born and bred, we stay WINNING.

[Axe]

It's flying under the radar because best Kawhi is not actually that good.

Kawhi and his buddy PG are both overrated.
You call them overrated for sweeping the lakers in their first two head-to-head meetings?

[Clippersfan86]

In short, they're not consistent.

Also, they haven't had a winning streak of more than 7 games in this season.

Oh believe me, you're preaching to the choir LOL. I've been losing my mind about their jekyl and hyde problem all season long. That's why I still don't trust them like the much more consistent Lakers/Bucks. They will look dominant like an all time great, historic team one game, then lose to the Cavs the next game. They have some sort of weird issue where they can't maintain that intensity all the time, especially vs "inferior" opponents. What they don't seem to understand is even the bad teams can get hot any given night and getting down 15-20 early on is a recipe for disaster regardless of the opponent.

What I love about the Bucks+Lakers this year is they truly enjoying just hooping and take every game seriously for the most part.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is averaging 27 PPG with a 33% usage while anchoring a top 5 offense and defense. I can't think of too many guys who have ever done that in NBA history.

This will already be Kawhi's 4th regular season of 6 OBPM or higher. That swimmer Tim Duncan has never even went over 6 OBPM once in his entire career. Looks like Kawhi was always on a higher tier offensively then Tim Duncan. On top of that, Kawhi has clippers at top 5 defense with poor defenders Shamet Lou Williams playing major minutes. Kawhi can do it all and is the overall best today by far.

[Axe]

Oh believe me, you're preaching to the choir LOL. I've been losing my mind about their jekyl and hyde problem all season long. That's why I still don't trust them like the much more consistent Lakers/Bucks. They will look dominant like an all time great, historic team one game, then lose to the Cavs the next game. They have some sort of weird issue where they can't maintain that intensity all the time, especially vs "inferior" opponents. What they don't seem to understand is even the bad teams can get hot any given night and getting down 15-20 early on is a recipe for disaster regardless of the opponent.

What I love about the Bucks+Lakers this year is they truly enjoying just hooping and take every game seriously for the most part.
Yikes.

And it's surprising that the raptors are doing well without kawhi, posting a franchise record winning streak of 15-games for almost a month bet. january and february. I'm not just sure if they can defend their title in the upcoming postseason but regardless, they haven't shown shortcomings in the regular season so far.

Also, the bucks are on a pace to win at least 67 games, a franchise record, had this season gone uninterrupted. But this year is really crap, that's all i can say.

[r0drig0lac]

lol, Kawhi is the best player in the league since 2017 ...and best player of the last two playoffs he played (2017 and 2019)

[Clippersfan86]

Yikes.

And it's surprising that the raptors are doing well without kawhi, posting a franchise record winning streak of 15-games for almost a month bet. january and february. I'm not just sure if they can defend their title in the upcoming postseason but regardless, they haven't shown shortcomings in the regular season so far.

Also, the bucks are on a pace to win at least 67 games, a franchise record, had this season gone uninterrupted. But this year is really crap, that's all i can say.

Yea the Raptors have truly been amazing. Their waves of depth man and guys who are at the right age and ready to step up (23-26) who just needed a bigger role. Toronto's drafting is stupid good.

[Axe]

Yea the Raptors have truly been amazing. Their waves of depth man and guys who are at the right age and ready to step up (23-26) who just needed a bigger role. Toronto's drafting is stupid good.
Yeah. Props to nick nurse too.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This year is the first year where Kawhi really doesn't have any holes in his game. Due to such dominance from Giannis/Lebron/Harden/Luka and a few other guys, somehow I think Kawhi's all around campaign has gone somewhat unnoticed. If you look at the raw numbers and metrics it's his best scoring season (2nd best efficiency campaign based on volume and usage probably). He's also having his best defensive season in 3 years. The biggest thing though is his evolution as a playmaker. The one big hole in his game in his prior couple elite campaigns was he was a 3+D guy with no real playmaking/primary ballhandler ability. This year he's being tasked with basically running a lot of Point Forward and setting up the offense.

He's #2 in RAPTOR, #4 in WAR, #2 in PIPM, #4 in RPM, #6 WS/48, #3 BPM. Most impressive of all is he only plays 32 MPG (2 less than the prior year) to have this impact. He is putting up 30 ppg, 8 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2 steals PER 36. Kawhi going into the season was probably overhyped to some degree, but do you agree that it's kind of reversed now and he's probably not getting enough credit? Despite a ton of injuries and lineups all year, Clips basically are the 3rd best team in the NBA (Although with a healthy starting 5 they have similar metrics to the Bucks for #1), top 5 on both ends. That's with PG missing 23 games, Pat Bev missed 16, Kawhi missed 13 (8 of which were load management I believe), Shamet missed 17.

I think only a LeBron fan or an idiot would say Kawhi's 2019 playoffs was overhyped. His numbers are comparable to Larry Bird's best run in 1984 and he beat 3 super teams without ever having a 20 PPG scorer on his team.

As far as Kawhi's passing, he was already showing major flashes in the 2017 playoffs averaging over 5 assists in 2nd round, 2019 playoffs Kawhi had multiple 4-5 assist games as well. Clippers he has taken it to a whole new level anchoring a top 5 offense as the best playmaker. Now Kawhi has zero weaknesses. The only thing that can stop clippers from winning it all is if Lou Williams or Morris have defensive collapses like the 3rd Lakers game they played.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It's flying under the radar because best Kawhi is not actually that good.

Kawhi and his buddy PG are both overrated.

Give me another player who has won a series 2nd round or later averaging 33 PPG 63% TS and 5 or more teammates who shot worse then 45% FG? Kawhi did that last year. Overrated my ass, more like GOAT carry job.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah. Props to nick nurse too.

They are a well coached regular season team right now. Playoffs is when we will see what they are all about. Marc Gasol offense is washed up, Siakam isn't a 1st option scorer when the game slows down in the playoffs. I see them losing against bucks/76ers/celtics but we'll see.

[SATAN]

Over rated.

[Axe]

Looks like someone is bitter because kawhi led the raptors to their first chip last year and then joined the clippers afterwards.

[Axe]

They are a well coached regular season team right now. Playoffs is when we will see what they are all about. Marc Gasol offense is washed up, Siakam isn't a 1st option scorer when the game slows down in the playoffs. I see them losing against bucks/76ers/celtics but we'll see.
To be fair, when bran left the cavs to hop in the lakers two years ago, the bucks were favored to make out of the east last year after winning 60 games in the regular season but they had their shortcomings in the ecf when the klaw outplayed the greek freak during that series.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

To be fair, when bran left the cavs to hop in the lakers two years ago, the bucks were favored to make out of the east last year after winning 60 games in the regular season but they had their shortcomings in the ecf when the klaw outplayed the greek freak during that series.

Ya that ECF by Kawhi is extremely underrated. 30 points, 9 rebounds 4 assist 2 steals 1 block averages and raptors backdoor swept them once Kawhi switched on to Giannis.

[light]

Give me another player who has won a series 2nd round or later averaging 33 PPG 63% TS and 5 or more teammates who shot worse then 45% FG? Kawhi did that last year. Overrated my ass, more like GOAT carry job.

See, you're overrating him because of one series. Proving my point. And nobody gives a sh-t about the 2nd round.

Now if Kawhi had made it a perennial habit of dominating then you might have a point, but he's 29 years old and he's only done that once. Overrated.

Last year was peak Kawhi. His pedigree (19 ppg, 2 apg) indicates that he will likely never match that again.

[Duncan21formvp]

See, you're overrating him because of one series. Proving my point. And nobody gives a sh-t about the 2nd round.

Now if Kawhi had made it a perennial habit of dominating then you might have a point, but he's 29 years old and he's only done that once. Overrated.

Last year was peak Kawhi. His pedigree (19 ppg, 2 apg) indicates that he will likely never match that again.

He outplayed Lebron and won finals mvp as well and locked him up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVTU-Gd3T10

[HBK_Kliq_2]

See, you're overrating him because of one series. Proving my point. And nobody gives a sh-t about the 2nd round.

Now if Kawhi had made it a perennial habit of dominating then you might have a point, but he's 29 years old and he's only done that once. Overrated.

Last year was peak Kawhi. His pedigree (19 ppg, 2 apg) indicates that he will likely never match that again.

Ok for a whole playoff run: name me a player who scored over 700 points, won the title, and in 3/4 series didn't have a teammate average 20 points or better.

This will be Kawhi's 4th superstar year with two finals MVPS, he already has a better career then somebody like D Wade who I see on top 20 lists.

2020-21 season will end right around the time Kawhi turns 30. By 30 he can already have 4 finals MVPS, how many other players have done that? Kawhi is still putting himself in position to be the GOAT.

[Clippersfan86]

See, you're overrating him because of one series. Proving my point. And nobody gives a sh-t about the 2nd round.

Now if Kawhi had made it a perennial habit of dominating then you might have a point, but he's 29 years old and he's only done that once. Overrated.

Last year was peak Kawhi. His pedigree (19 ppg, 2 apg) indicates that he will likely never match that again.

Is the 19/2 what you're considering his career stats? 19/6.5/3 ish for a guy who came into the league as a 15th pick, never expected to be more than a role player. He worked his way up from the bench and took 5 years to become a star on a veteran team that was stacked early in his career. He's been a top 5 player the last 5 years (although I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for the 9 game season due to injury, since after that he's proven himself 2 straight seasons). He's a late bloomer. Not everyone is a star from day 1.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Is the 19/2 what you're considering his career stats? 19/6.5/3 ish for a guy who came into the league as a 15th pick, never expected to be more than a role player. He worked his way up from the bench and took 5 years to become a star on a veteran team that was stacked early in his career. He's been a top 5 player the last 5 years (although I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for the 9 game season due to injury, since after that he's proven himself 2 straight seasons). He's a late bloomer. Not everyone is a star from day 1.

I never really bought into the late bloomer thing. 2012 and 2013 seasons Kawhi is still a junior and senior in college. By 2014 he already was finals MVP and led his team in GmSc during finals.

2015 was a bit of an odd year because Parker/Manu started breaking down badly. But 1 shot away from beating peak Paul/Griffin without home court advantage is not anything to be embarrassed about.

2016 spurs gave Kawhi full control and they won 67 games. Led playoffs in BPM. Just didn't have a 2nd co star on level of Westbrook.

Still kawhi has eliminated majority of the best players of his era even if you don't count 2014: harden, marc Gasol, giannis, curry, embiid

[Axe]

Ya that ECF by Kawhi is extremely underrated. 30 points, 9 rebounds 4 assist 2 steals 1 block averages and raptors backdoor swept them once Kawhi switched on to Giannis.
The bucks lacked the experience also but five years ago, coach bud has already led the hawks to their first ecf appearance in several decades, although they were swept by the cavs back then obviously, which makes him look very unlucky that his team had to lose to two different former fmvps. That loss to the raptors made nick nurse looked like a better coach than him because the former was just a rookie one in 2019 lol. Poor bud.

[999Guy]

Not better than 2016. Easily better than last year. Probably better than 2017.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its cause he never established a winning culture.

Weak(ish) personality/leadership.

Ball stopping and not getting others involved.


He needed his team to be stacked completely through the roof until they played to the expectations from before the season.

[SATAN]

Utterly hilarious seeing guys like this and Giannis pretend to be good play makers meanwhile the goat out there seeing the game beyond their comprehension :roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Its cause he never established a winning culture.

Weak(ish) personality/leadership.

Ball stopping and not getting others involved.


He needed his team to be stacked completely through the roof until they played to the expectations from before the season.

67 win team in 2016 when Duncan was a bench warmer by playoff time

62 wins in 2017

Championship in raptors after zero wins out of 1st round the previous year 2019

2020 clippers top 3 SRS, top 3 defense, top 5 offense

That's establishing a winning culture with 3 different franchises. Your troll jobs are getting lazy.

[ArbitraryWater]

67 win team in 2016 when Duncan was a bench warmer by playoff time

62 wins in 2017

Championship in raptors after zero wins out of 1st round the previous year 2019

2020 clippers top 3 SRS, top 3 defense, top 5 offense

That's establishing a winning culture with 3 different franchises. Your troll jobs are getting lazy.

what?

zero wins out of 1st round? fck are you talking about

the clippers were a lame 3rd seed before adding morris and reggie

[LoneyROY7]

Its cause he never established a winning culture.

Weak(ish) personality/leadership.

Ball stopping and not getting others involved.


He needed his team to be stacked completely through the roof until they played to the expectations from before the season.

Uh, Kawhi isn't a ball-stopper. :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

what?

zero wins out of 1st round? fck are you talking about

the clippers were a lame 3rd seed before adding morris and reggie

Raptors in 2018 were swept in the 2nd round. They never won a playoff game outside the 1st round the previous year Kawhi arrived. Kawhi made them a champion.

Clippers lost their two best scorers Harris/Gallo and Kawhi jumped them from 13th SRS to 3rd SRS, 19th ranked defense to 5th ranked defense and so on.

[ArbitraryWater]

Uh, Kawhi isn't a ball-stopper. :lol

of course he is :oldlol:


Raptors in 2018 were swept in the 2nd round. They never won a playoff game outside the 1st round the previous year Kawhi arrived. Kawhi made them a champion.

Clippers lost their two best scorers Harris/Gallo and Kawhi jumped them from 13th SRS to 3rd SRS, 19th ranked defense to 5th ranked defense and so on.

"zero wins out of first round" is you were of saying they were out in the second round?

Lmao.

Is "outside" the word you were looking for?

Yeah, they were the #1 seed before Leonard.

Just like the Spurs were before Leonard.

Basically, the story of Leonard hopping on the best available team repeats itself.

They lost Harris way before the end of last year.

They lost Gallo and got PG and Kawhi.

You're an idiot.

[ELITEpower23]

Um. Well...

Kawhi Season 7: 27-7-5 (47/37/89)
LeBron Season 17: 26-11-7 (50/35/70)
Advantage: LeBron. He is only scoring 1 less point per game while leading the entire league in assists, and grabbing 2 more rebounds per game.

Kawhi: 116 ORtg, 104 DRtg , VORP: 4.6, BPM 9.0, PER 26.7, WS 7.6, TS 58%
LeBron: 117 ORtg, 105 DRtg, VORP: 5.7, BPM 8.7, PER 26.0, WS 9.5, TS 58%
Advantage: LeBron. He hasn't taken rest like Kawhi. Kawhi has missed 13 games. LeBron has missed 3. Season 17. 3 games missed. Season 7, 13 games missed. NO contest.

This is actually sad when you break it down. A 7th season, resting load managing Kawhi is still doing slightly less than a Season 17 no load management LeBron. Maybe next year tiger. This is what MJ would be like in the modern era. Slightly less than Season 17 LeBron.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

of course he is :oldlol:



"zero wins out of first round" is you were of saying they were out in the second round?

Lmao.

Is "outside" the word you were looking for?

Yeah, they were the #1 seed before Leonard.

Just like the Spurs were before Leonard.

Basically, the story of Leonard hopping on the best available team repeats itself.

They lost Harris way before the end of last year.

They lost Gallo and got PG and Kawhi.

You're an idiot.

Playoffs is what matters for raptors, the winning culture was established through kawhi via playoffs. 2nd round sweep to a ring.

Clippers jumped from an average team to elite team with Kawhi being the clear MVP and them losing Gall/Harris.

Make some logical arguments or go back to watching your 3-6 finals record.

[ELITEpower23]

67 win team in 2016 when Duncan was a bench warmer by playoff time

62 wins in 2017

Championship in raptors after zero wins out of 1st round the previous year 2019

2020 clippers top 3 SRS, top 3 defense, top 5 offense

That's establishing a winning culture with 3 different franchises. Your troll jobs are getting lazy.

Kawhi has been on the most stacked teams in NBA history

TD, Parker, Ginobli, Green Spurs
Lowry, Ibaka, Gasol, Green Raptors

These teams are winning 60 games WITHOUT him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi has been on the most stacked teams in NBA history

TD, Parker, Ginobli, Green Spurs
Lowry, Ibaka, Gasol, Green Raptors

These teams are winning 60 games WITHOUT him.

Those teams are not winning in playoffs without Kawhi's presence.

2009-2011 spurs stuck in limbo without Kawhi and even getting knocked out 1st round one year.

2018 raptors - swept in the 2nd round

[ELITEpower23]

Those teams are not winning in playoffs without Kawhi's presence.

2009-2011 spurs stuck in limbo without Kawhi and even getting knocked out 1st round one year.

2018 raptors - swept in the 2nd round

Kawhi's teams win 55 games WITHOUT him. Let it sink in.

[ArbitraryWater]

Playoffs is what matters for raptors, the winning culture was established through kawhi via playoffs. 2nd round sweep to a ring.

Clippers jumped from an average team to elite team with Kawhi being the clear MVP and them losing Gall/Harris.

Make some logical arguments or go back to watching your 3-6 finals record.

you don't understand what logic is.

You're a mouth breathing retard.

Your understanding of basketball is:

"lolz lebron got swept he couldnt have been best"

[ArbitraryWater]

Those teams are not winning in playoffs without Kawhi's presence.

2009-2011 spurs stuck in limbo without Kawhi and even getting knocked out 1st round one year.

2018 raptors - swept in the 2nd round

of course theyre not, but it takes very little to get over the top.

easy for a legit superstar to swoop in and win.

these teams are pancake stacked

[HBK_Kliq_2]

of course theyre not, but it takes very little to get over the top.

easy for a legit superstar to swoop in and win.

these teams are pancake stacked

And he beat teams that were pancake stacked

Embiid/Butler/Simmons/Reddick

kawhi beat them while his "pancake stacked" team had 7 guys in rotation shooting worse then 45% FG

Giannis/Middleton/Bledsoe/Lopez #1 SRS and defense team. After Kawhi switched on Giannis, they were backdoor swept.

After having a more difficult eastern path then LeBron could ever dream of. In the finals, kawhi matched LeBron's biggest accomplishment ever beating Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing time.

[ELITEpower23]

And he beat teams that were pancake stacked

Embiid/Butler/Simmons/Reddick

kawhi beat them while his "pancake stacked" team had 7 guys in rotation shooting worse then 45% FG

Giannis/Middleton/Bledsoe/Lopez #1 SRS and defense team. After Kawhi switched on Giannis, they were backdoor swept.

After having a more difficult eastern path then LeBron could ever dream of. In the finals, kawhi matched LeBron's biggest accomplishment ever beating Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing time.

Kawhi's teams win 55 games WITHOUT him. Let it sink in.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi's teams win 55 games WITHOUT him. Let it sink in.

So did Jordan and majority still consider him the goat. LeBron has had worse supporting casts but never had a title run without being pushed to 7 games in a series, despite having 11 prime years already and is 3-6 in the finals.

Regular season is when a lot of guys are coasting and playing a lot of junkie teams, you are putting too much stock in regular season. If regular season is so important to you, how come Lebron has never led a #1 offense in regular season?

[ELITEpower23]

So did Jordan and majority still consider him the goat. LeBron has had worse supporting casts but never had a title run without being pushed to 7 games in a series, despite having 11 prime years already and is 3-6 in the finals.

Regular season is when a lot of guys are coasting and playing a lot of junkie teams, you are putting too much stock in regular season. If regular season is so important to you, how come Lebron has never led a #1 offense in regular season?

Kawhi and Jordan played on heavily stacked teams and just had to do a little work to push a team over the top.

Like KD on Warriors
MJ on Bulls
Kawhi on Raptors/Spurs

Make sense now? They are good players, but swap them out for Carmello Anthony or Allen Iverson and they still win chips. That's their level of impact.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi and Jordan played on heavily stacked teams and just had to do a little work to push a team over the top.

Like KD on Warriors
MJ on Bulls
Kawhi on Raptors/Spurs

Make sense now? They are good players, but swap them out for Carmello Anthony or Allen Iverson and they still win chips. That's their level of impact.

Raptors never won a ring without kawhi like warriors won without Durant. In fact, raptors were swept in 2nd round. So that makes absolutely zero sense actually but thanks for the opinion I guess.

Kawhi had 7 teammates shoot worse then 45% FG in 2nd round vs 76ers. I thought they only needed a little work to push them over the top?

Carmello and Iverson? Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.

[HoopsNY]

As others have mentioned, Kawhi's load management has hurt him. If he was doing this without the load management, then I believe a lot of people would give him more credit.

With that being said, I'm starting to feel that he is underrated, both this year and career-wise. There is a lot of emphasis on his resume that includes playing in a Popovich system that limited his ability to play and get touches. Having said that, Kawhi's resume is still impressive.

In just 8 full seasons, he has 2 titles and 2 finals MVPs, 2 DPOY awards and 5 All-Defensive selections. He's the best two way player in the league and has been for a long time. You can't ignore that Kawhi seems to be able to win more while working with less than a lot of other players (KD for example). His next 4-5 years will be interesting. I think he's already one of the greatest players of all time and depending on his next 4-5 years; he might even enter the top 10.

[ELITEpower23]

Raptors never won a ring without kawhi like warriors won without Durant. In fact, raptors were swept in 2nd round. So that makes absolutely zero sense actually but thanks for the opinion I guess.

Kawhi had 7 teammates shoot worse then 45% FG in 2nd round vs 76ers. I thought they only needed a little work to push them over the top?

Carmello and Iverson? Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.

Raptors had to go through the literal GREATEST OF ALL TIME (GOAT) LeBron James. I guarantee 2018 Raptors beat 2019 76ers. No contest. Kawhi beat no one special wake up buddy.

You keep hanging onto a 4.0 SRS 2019 76ers. Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Raptors had to go through the literal GREATEST OF ALL TIME (GOAT) LeBron James. I guarantee 2018 Raptors beat 2019 76ers. No contest. Kawhi beat no one special wake up buddy.

You keep hanging onto a 4.0 SRS 2019 76ers. Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.

Embiid was a dominating defensive player in the playoffs, the numbers show that. You can't look at 76ers SRS because Embiid/Butler hardly played together. Giannis Bucks also would of swept 2018 raptors.

[ELITEpower23]

As others have mentioned, Kawhi's load management has hurt him. If he was doing this without the load management, then I believe a lot of people would give him more credit.

With that being said, I'm starting to feel that he is underrated, both this year and career-wise. There is a lot of emphasis on his resume that includes playing in a Popovich system that limited his ability to play and get touches. Having said that, Kawhi's resume is still impressive.

In just 8 full seasons he has 2 titles and 2 finals MVPs, 2 DPOY awards and 5 All-Defensive selections. He's the best two way player in the league and has been for a long time. You can't ignore that Kawhi seems to be able to win more while working with less than a lot of other players (KD for example). His next 4-5 years will be interesting. I think he's already one of the greatest players of all time and depending on his next 4-5 years, might even enter the top 10.

Are you forgetting his playoff blunders before teaming with another 60 win team (2018 Raptors)
Kawhi's playoff resume without the backing of a 60-win team
2015: 1st round loss to Clippers
2016: 2nd round loss to Thunder
2017: Injury
2018: Just chilled out

He has no chance to be compared as a top 10 with these failures. People rag on LeBron for losing in the Finals and we've got a guy with 1st round losses to the Clippers.

BYE :lol

[HoopsNY]

Raptors had to go through the literal GREATEST OF ALL TIME (GOAT) LeBron James. I guarantee 2018 Raptors beat 2019 76ers. No contest. Kawhi beat no one special wake up buddy.

You keep hanging onto a 4.0 SRS 2019 76ers. Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.

A team with Simmons-Embiid-Butler-Harris-Reddick is nothing special? Sorry but I don't think anyone believes this. That was a tough matchup and I doubt the Raptors of 2018 would have beaten the Sixers when that Sixers team took Kawhi's Raptors to 7 games. You're underrating Kawhi's value.

And beating Giannis and the Bucks wasn't impressive? Especially seeing what happened after Kawhi was switched onto Giannis? That Bucks team was one of the greatest defensive teams (at least statistically), ever. They beat the best team that also had the MVP.

The Raptors then beat a Golden State team that had a very similar, if not equal, roster to the 2015-16 Warriors team that Lebron's Cleveland team beat. Kawhi and co. So again, how was this not beating anyone special?

[ELITEpower23]

Embiid was a dominating defensive player in the playoffs, the numbers show that. You can't look at 76ers SRS because Embiid/Butler hardly played together. Giannis Bucks also would of swept 2018 raptors.

Giannis is completely unproven in the playoffs. Are we really doing this? :lol

Giannis playoffs

2015: 1st round exit
2016: Missed playoffs
2017: 1st round exit
2018: 1st round exit
2019: ECF loss

Um. This was it eh? I'll take the 2018 Raptors with Lowyr, Demar, Van Vleet, Siakam, Ibaka over the 2019 76ers. Sorry bruh.

[ELITEpower23]

A team with Simmons-Embiid-Butler-Harris-Reddick is nothing special? Sorry but I don't think anyone believes this. That was a tough matchup and I doubt the Raptors of 2018 would have beaten the Sixers when that Sixers team took Kawhi's Raptors to 7 games. You're underrating Kawhi's value.

And beating Giannis and the Bucks wasn't impressive? Especially seeing what happened after Kawhi was switched onto Giannis? That Bucks team was one of the greatest defensive teams (at least statistically), ever. They beat the best team that also had the MVP.

The Raptors then beat a Golden State team that had a very similar, if not equal, roster to the 2015-16 Warriors team that Lebron's Cleveland team beat. Kawhi and co. So again, how was this not beating anyone special?

Troll job. Don't quote me if you're going to troll.

[HoopsNY]

Are you forgetting his playoff blunders before teaming with another 60 win team (2018 Raptors)
Kawhi's playoff resume without the backing of a 60-win team
2015: 1st round loss to Clippers
2016: 2nd round loss to Thunder
2017: Injury
2018: Just chilled out

He has no chance to be compared as a top 10 with these failures. People rag on LeBron for losing in the Finals and we've got a guy with 1st round losses to the Clippers.

BYE :lol

Stop being a troll.

Re-read what I said. I clearly mentioned that it depends on what happens in the next 4-5 years. Put this way:

If Kawhi wins another title, finals MVP, and adds an MVP award to his resume with a likely additional 4-5 all-star selections, you don't think that puts him into the conversation? That would give him a championship and finals MVP with three different teams, in addition to being one of the greatest defensive specialists ever.

I never said he is the GOAT, but damn can you give the guy some credit? He's a top 5 player in the league right now hands down and has been for years.

[HoopsNY]

Troll job. Don't quote me if you're going to troll.

How is what you bolded "trolling"?

[HoopsNY]

Kawhi's teams win 55 games WITHOUT him. Let it sink in.

So what? KD's Thunder won 47 games (playoffs) without him the next season. MJ's Bulls won 55 games (2nd round playoffs) without him. And Wilt's 76ers won 55 games (playoffs) without him. Why the need to devalue a player's contributions based on external circumstances?

[Axe]

Raptors never won a ring without kawhi like warriors won without Durant. In fact, raptors were swept in 2nd round. So that makes absolutely zero sense actually but thanks for the opinion I guess.

Kawhi had 7 teammates shoot worse then 45% FG in 2nd round vs 76ers. I thought they only needed a little work to push them over the top?

Carmello and Iverson? Lol you have now turned this into a laughable discussion, stop quoting me if this is the shit you're going to pull.
You didn't know that the warriors won in 2015 in which iggy became the fmvp?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Giannis is completely unproven in the playoffs. Are we really doing this? :lol

Giannis playoffs

2015: 1st round exit
2016: Missed playoffs
2017: 1st round exit
2018: 1st round exit
2019: ECF loss

Um. This was it eh? I'll take the 2018 Raptors with Lowyr, Demar, Van Vleet, Siakam, Ibaka over the 2019 76ers. Sorry bruh.

Giannis in 2019 had a better season then any player LeBron ever faced in the east. He won an MVP and is clearly better overall then Derrick Rose.

[ELITEpower23]

Giannis in 2019 had a better season then any player LeBron ever faced in the east. He won an MVP and is clearly better overall then Derrick Rose.

Giannis playoffs

2015: 1st round exit
2016: Missed playoffs
2017: 1st round exit
2018: 1st round exit

....????

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You didn't know that the warriors won in 2015 in which iggy became the fmvp?

Ya and tell me when Siakam wins finals MVP. Until that happens, siakam's legacy is a guy who missed 12 straight threes in the finals and Kawhi's lackey.

[Axe]

Giannis in 2019 had a better season then any player LeBron ever faced in the east. He won an MVP and is clearly better overall then Derrick Rose.
Yeah but too bad it happened only after bran hopped to the lakers to play in the western conference.

[Axe]

Ya and tell me when Siakam wins finals MVP. Until that happens, siakam's legacy is a guy who missed 12 straight threes in the finals and Kawhi's lackey.
I may have misinterpreted your post due to confusion.

I thought you were saying that the warriors have never won any rings at all until kd came.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Giannis playoffs

2015: 1st round exit
2016: Missed playoffs
2017: 1st round exit
2018: 1st round exit

....????

2 MVPS at 25 years old and 2 games away from finals. That's on pace for a great career. How many 2 time MVPS did LeBron face in the east?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I may have misinterpreted your post due to confusion.

I thought you were saying that the warriors have never won any rings at all until kd came.

2015-present LeBron hasn't won any more rings then Kawhi has.

[Axe]

2015-present LeBron hasn't won any more rings then Kawhi has.
Well, you're true about that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I may have misinterpreted your post due to confusion.

I thought you were saying that the warriors have never won any rings at all until kd came.

No i agree with you. 2017/2018 Durant is comparable to what 2014 Kawhi did for spurs maybe. Raptors was a similar supporting cast to 2016 Cavs

[Axe]

No i agree with you. 2017/2018 Durant is comparable to what 2014 Kawhi did for spurs maybe. Raptors was a similar supporting cast to 2016 Cavs
But what kd did there was hop on a superteam, specially one that has already won the most wins in the regular season.

[BigShotBob]

Kawhi went through the toughest East in approximately 25 years enroute to another FMVP.

It's not flying under the radar because everyone knows that he's going to turn it on in the playoffs when it matters the most.

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi went through the toughest East in approximately 25 years enroute to another FMVP.

It's not flying under the radar because everyone knows that he's going to turn it on in the playoffs when it matters the most.
this, in approximately 4 months, he will have 3x fmvp (making teams with no history like Raptors and Clippers, NBA champs) and the haters will have to make bigger and bigger excuses to put inferior players like Durant above him on any list

[ELITEpower23]

2 MVPS at 25 years old and 2 games away from finals. That's on pace for a great career. How many 2 time MVPS did LeBron face in the east?

I'll let you in on a little secret. The BEST have multiple MVPs.

LeBron has 4. MJ has 5. Kawhi has zero. He is not even close baby boi. If he starts winning 82-game MVPs you will change my mind but I dont see it. He doesnt have it.

[Stephonit]

Raptors was a similar supporting cast to 2016 Cavs

2019 Raptors were a loaded team. Danny Green saying he thought he hadn't been on a team with such depth before and he was on the championship Spurs teams. The Raptors bench was considered the best in the league in 2018 they just lacked a superstar to lead them.

Compare with the Cavaliers:

Lowry or Irving?
Siakam or Love?
Danny Green or JR Smith?
Ibaka or Tristan Thompson?

Maybe the Cavs win some of those match-ups but it's close.

Then you add Gasol and VanVleet.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2019 Raptors were a loaded team. Danny Green saying he thought he hadn't been on a team with such depth before and he was on the championship Spurs teams. The Raptors bench was considered the best in the league in 2018 they just lacked a superstar to lead them.

Compare with the Cavaliers:

Lowry or Irving?
Siakam or Love?
Danny Green or JR Smith?
Ibaka or Tristan Thompson?

Maybe the Cavs win some of those match-ups but it's close.

Then you add Gasol and VanVleet.

Offensively the raptors supporting cast was suspect. Siakam can't spread the floor with shooting like Kevin Love. Lowry can't create his own shot like Irving.

Vanvleet was also very suspect for half the playoffs, he sucked in 2nd round and almost cost the season game 3 ECF.

Gasol was completely washed up offensively

Siakan missed 12 straight three's in finals and was inconsistent from 3 all playoffs

Lowry had a terrible 2nd round series

[Axe]

2019 Raptors were a loaded team. Danny Green saying he thought he hadn't been on a team with such depth before and he was on the championship Spurs teams. The Raptors bench was considered the best in the league in 2018 they just lacked a superstar to lead them.

Compare with the Cavaliers:

Lowry or Irving?
Siakam or Love?
Danny Green or JR Smith?
Ibaka or Tristan Thompson?

Maybe the Cavs win some of those match-ups but it's close.

Then you add Gasol and VanVleet.
But the greatest difference of them all was that the raptors have nick nurse over the cavs. Despite 2019 being his very first finals appearance, he was a very good mentor compared to shitty scrubs like ty lue.

[Drygon]

Its cause he never established a winning culture.

Weak(ish) personality/leadership.

Ball stopping and not getting others involved.


He needed his team to be stacked completely through the roof until they played to the expectations from before the season.

Kinda hypocritical coming from a LeBron stan. Your idol hasn't done those things either lol.

[Lebron23]

Kinda hypocritical coming from a LeBron stan. Your idol hasn't done those things either lol.

Lebron and the lakers are going to expose the Clippers and kawhi in the playoffs. No more quality coach like nurse and popovich on his team.

[Lebron23]

But the greatest difference of them all was that the raptors have nick nurse over the cavs. Despite 2019 being his very first finals appearance, he was a very good mentor compared to shitty scrubs like ty lue.

Bests posts so far in this thread.

[ImKobe]

27/7/5/2/1 in just 32 mpg. Underrated IMHO, considering he has the Clippers #2 in the West with George playing like trash and missing so many games. Had a slow start to the season, but was rounding into form half-way through with 9 straight 30+pt games (34.5/7.7/5.2/2.2/0.9 just 2.7 TO and in 33 mpg in the 9 games) and adding more playmaking to his offensive arsenal.

[ELITEpower23]

27/7/5/2/1 in just 32 mpg. Underrated IMHO, considering he has the Clippers #2 in the West with George playing like trash and missing so many games. Had a slow start to the season, but was rounding into form half-way through with 9 straight 30+pt games (34.5/7.7/5.2/2.2/0.9 just 2.7 TO and in 33 mpg in the 9 games) and adding more playmaking to his offensive arsenal.

He joined a 50 win team and added MVP Paul George :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Are we really still debating how good the Raptors "cast" was? The Raptors have a better record than the Clippers...


Kinda hypocritical coming from a LeBron stan. Your idol hasn't done those things either lol.

LeBron didn't (help) establish winning cultures in Miami, Cleveland? He hasn't done so in LA? What exactly were these teams winning before he got there?

Toronto and San Antonio literally were the #1 seeds before Kawhi.


27/7/5/2/1 in just 32 mpg

What would that line be if he didn't take a quarter of games off, though?


He joined a 50 win team and added MVP Paul George

The guy literally has spent every second of his career on stacked teams but keeps getting credit for "carrying" teams. :lol

[Axe]

Bests posts so far in this thread.
I hope this isn't sarcasm because i really mean what i said earlier