How come Lebron has never led a #1 offense?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

LeBron has never led a #1 offense during regular season via basketball reference. Michael Jordan has done it in four different seasons. What is stopping a LeBron led offense from ever being #1 ranked? He has had like 11 prime years to do it already and failed every time.

[ELITEpower23]

Which teams did LeBron play on that could win 55 games without him? I kindly await your reply.

[dbugz]

plain and simple, because he isn't that good? :confusedshrug:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Which teams did LeBron play on that could win 55 games without him? I kindly await your reply.

2011 and 2012 without question

[ELITEpower23]

2011 and 2012 without question

2011 definitely not. 2012, maybe.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is MJ getting credit for "leading" the offense when Pippen was the "director" of the offense per Phil Jackson? The offense declined more without Pippen than it did without Jordan. The reason is efficiency went down minus Pippen. Without MJ efficiency went up--they just couldn't overcome the talent loss of a 33 PPG scorer, especially since they did not get a chance to replace him since he retired in October.


2011 and 2012 without question

The problem with that is with LeBron they won 58 in 11' and had a 57 win pace over 82 games in 12'. So for the Heat to win 55+ without LeBron there would have to be almost no drop-off without him. Everything we know about the Heat without LeBron: the games he missed, what happened after he left, and what they did with him off the court tells is there would be a large decline minus him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why is MJ getting credit for "leading" the offense when Pippen was the "director" of the offense per Phil Jackson? The offense declined more without Pippen than it did without Jordan. The reason is efficiency went down minus Pippen. Without MJ efficiency went up--they just couldn't overcome the talent loss of a 33 PPG scorer, especially since they did not get a chance to replace him since he retired in October.



The problem with that is with LeBron they won 58 in 11' and had a 57 win pace over 82 games in 12'. So for the Heat to win 55+ without LeBron there would have to be almost no drop-off without him. Everything we know about the Heat without LeBron: the games he missed, what happened after he left, and what they did with him off the court tells is there would be a large decline minus him.

Jordan was the scoring anchor, any player who is by far the leading scorer on the team is the player who deserves majority credit for the offense. That's just how the game works, otherwise you would be seeing people say 2014 Kawhi finals run was goat level.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was the scoring anchor, any player who is by far the leading scorer on the team is the player who deserves majority credit for the offense

So why did it fall off more without Pippen than without MJ?


That's just how the game works

So Amare was the offensive anchor of the Suns teams, not Nash?

Teams win by total points. It doesn't matter how they arrive at that. There is no bonus for having a 30 PPG or 25 PPG scorer.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So why did it fall off more without Pippen than without MJ?



So Amare was the offensive anchor of the Suns teams, not Nash?

Teams win by total points. It doesn't matter how they arrive at that. There is no bonus for having a 30 PPG or 25 PPG scorer.

They were 2nd ranked in 1993 with Jordan and 14th ranked when he left, that's a pretty massive drop off.

The gap on Nash/Amare play making is massive, that's not the same with Jordan/Pippen. Let me correct myself, when the scoring gap is massively bigger then the passing gap you favor the scorer.

[Stephonit]

The problem with that is with LeBron they won 58 in 11' and had a 57 win pace over 82 games in 12'. So for the Heat to win 55+ without LeBron there would have to be almost no drop-off without him. Everything we know about the Heat without LeBron: the games he missed, what happened after he left, and what they did with him off the court tells is there would be a large decline minus him.

The problem with this is that in the 2010 season the Heat won 47 games before LeBron and Bosh joined and in the 2012 season they won 46 even with LeBron. Years later in 2016 with Bosh leading and old Wade they had 48 wins. One would have to believe prime Wade and Bosh couldn't substantially improve on 47 and 48 wins.

[ELITEpower23]

Kareem #1 offense

1971 Bucks
1974 Bucks

Kareem #2 offense
1970 Bucks
1972 Bucks

Kareem GOAT

[ELITEpower23]

The problem with this is that in the 2010 season the Heat won 47 games before LeBron and Bosh joined and in the 2012 season they won 46 even with LeBron. Years later in 2016 with Bosh leading and old Wade they had 48 wins. One would have to believe prime Wade and Bosh couldn't substantially improve on 47 and 48 wins.

Cuck doesn't know a thing. In 2012 they played 66 games (I'll help you with the math, you're a little slow on the uptake)

66 games played
46 wins

82/66 = 1.242

1.242 * 46 = 57.15 win pace

2012 = 57 wins

Stay in school

[Roundball_Rock]

They were 2nd ranked in 1993 with Jordan and 14th ranked when he left, that's a pretty massive drop off.

Not as massive as going from #1 in scoring in 97' to #18 in scoring, is it? Here is a chart on their offense (compare the declines without MJ to without Pippen):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png


The problem with this is that in the 2010 season the Heat won 47 games before LeBron and Bosh joined and in the 2012 season they won 46 even with LeBron

2012 was a 66 game season; 2010 was 82 games.


Years later in 2016 with Bosh leading and old Wade they had 48 wins

Misleading. They added Dragic, Whiteside, and Joe Johnson by then (JJ was added at the deadline--Miami was on a 45 win pace before him, 54 win pace after acquiring him). Not exactly the same core as the 14' team.

So Joe Johnson, Dragic, Whiteside are added to Wade, Bosh and they still can't get to 54 wins like they did with LeBron in 14'? That speaks volumes about LeBron's impact.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kareem #1 offense

1971 Bucks
1974 Bucks

Kareem #2 offense
1970 Bucks
1972 Bucks

Kareem GOAT

That's the crackhead era but ya he still has a better regular season GOAT case then LeBron if you count that era.

[ELITEpower23]

That's the crackhead era but ya he still has a better regular season GOAT case then LeBron if you count that era.

90s is the crackhead era. Get it straight.

Watered down expansion era where they added six new teams that had no business being in the NBA so MJ could beat up on watered down teams with his teammate advantage. Try again.

[ELITEpower23]

Not as massive as going from #1 in scoring in 97' to #18 in scoring, is it? Here is a chart on their offense (compare the declines without MJ to without Pippen):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png



2012 was a 66 game season; 2010 was 82 games.



Misleading. They added Dragic, Whiteside, and Joe Johnson by then (JJ was added at the deadline--Miami was on a 45 win pace before him, 54 win pace after acquiring him). Not exactly the same core as the 14' team.

So Joe Johnson, Dragic, Whiteside are added to Wade, Bosh and they still can't get to 54 wins like they did with LeBron in 14'? That speaks volumes about LeBron's impact.

Roundball stays slaying and it's a thing of beauty, really. Poetry in motion my man. Keep up the good work.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball stays slaying and it's a thing of beauty, really. Poetry in motion my man. Keep up the good work.

:cheers:

[ELITEpower23]

:cheers:

All we can do is hope to extend our level of education onto them so that one day they can learn the truths. Our students will learn, slowly, over time. It's all we can hope for.

[Stephonit]

Not as massive as going from #1 in scoring in 97' to #18 in scoring, is it? Here is a chart on their offense (compare the declines without MJ to without Pippen):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png



2012 was a 66 game season; 2010 was 82 games.



Misleading. They added Dragic, Whiteside, and Joe Johnson by then (JJ was added at the deadline--Miami was on a 45 win pace before him, 54 win pace after acquiring him). Not exactly the same core as the 14' team.

So Joe Johnson, Dragic, Whiteside are added to Wade, Bosh and they still can't get to 54 wins like they did with LeBron in 14'? That speaks volumes about LeBron's impact.

Pretending 2016 Wade is the same as 2011 Wade. Same LeBron fans saying Wade was a shell by 2014. Also a reminder the comparison with Jordan and the Bulls would then be a team that added Kukoc, Longley, and Kerr in Jordan's absence.

[ELITEpower23]

Pretending 2016 Wade is the same as 2011 Wade. Same LeBron fans saying Wade was a shell by 2014. Also a reminder the comparison with Jordan and the Bulls would then be a team that added Kukoc, Longley, and Kerr in Jordan's absence.

2013 Wade already was a shell...I'm pretty sure he is top 5 WORST ppg all time for #2 option throughout a playoffs run. Let me find the thread.

Here:
Worst #2 option in championship run

1. Hakeem = Vernon Maxwell 1994 (13.8)
2. LeBron = Dwyane Wade 2013 (15.9)
3. Tony Parker = Tim Duncan 2014 (16.3)
4. Larry Bird = Dennis Johnson 1984 (16.6)
5. Michael Jordan = Scottie Pippen 1998 (16.8)

1. Hakeem
2. LeBron
3. Parker
4. Bird
5. Jordan

Stop it.

[Bronbron23]

Which teams did LeBron play on that could win 55 games without him? I kindly await your reply.

2011 to 2014 and 2015 to 2017. Bron plays on teams and for coaches whos in line with his philosophy that ball dominant systems are the best especially of you have a guy like him. Systems that emphasize on and off ball movement like warriors, spurs and raps are much better. Thats why greg pop can get 47-55 wins with almost anyone. Its why when kawhi left the raps they didnt miss a beat and its why the warriors were cruising through the playoffs in 16 without steph. Its also why the bulls in 94 still had 55 without mj.

Do you really think if lebron played on one of these teams and he left that would change because it wouldn't.

[Roundball_Rock]

All we can do is hope to extend our level of education onto them so that one day they can learn the truths. Our students will learn, slowly, over time. It's all we can hope for.

Yup. It is a shame there is so much BS pushed out there that has to be corrected but I am saving that research and info so I don't have to keep doing it. :oldlol:


Pretending 2016 Wade is the same as 2011 Wade

:biggums:

We are comparing the 2014 Heat to the 2015 Heat and 2016 Heat. 2011 is irrelevant.


Also a reminder the comparison with Jordan and the Bulls would then be a team that added Kukoc, Longley, and Kerr in Jordan's absence.

Exactly. Rookie Kukoc (11/4/3), Kerr, Longley (who was acquired mid-season) compared to acquiring perennial all-star Joe Johnson, Whiteside, all-NBA Dragic. There is a clear difference in quality of acquisitions.

The Bulls also "subtracted" 10 games from Pippen (4-6) and 12 from Grant (7-5). In 93' Pippen played 81 and Grant 77. When both played the Bulls were on a 63 win pace. Moreover, Cartwright missed 40 games and Kukoc 7. People bring up Longley but not these injuries.


2011 to 2014 and 2015 to 2017

This is based on nothing. What we saw was these teams suck without him. Miami in 15' was a good test case.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not as massive as going from #1 in scoring in 97' to #18 in scoring, is it? Here is a chart on their offense (compare the declines without MJ to without Pippen):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png



2012 was a 66 game season; 2010 was 82 games.



Misleading. They added Dragic, Whiteside, and Joe Johnson by then (JJ was added at the deadline--Miami was on a 45 win pace before him, 54 win pace after acquiring him). Not exactly the same core as the 14' team.

So Joe Johnson, Dragic, Whiteside are added to Wade, Bosh and they still can't get to 54 wins like they did with LeBron in 14'? That speaks volumes about LeBron's impact.

1994 Pippen had Horace Grant a decent 2nd option scorer

Kukoc is all Jordan had in 1998 and he couldn't even cut it as a 3rd wheel most of the time, let alone 2nd option

[light]

Do you get an award for having the #1 offense?

Is it the Steve Nash award? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

1994 Pippen had Horace Grant a decent 2nd option scorer

Kukoc is all Jordan had in 1998 and he couldn't even cut it as a 3rd wheel most of the time, let alone 2nd option

Kukoc was a better scorer than Grant, who scored a lot on putbacks, dunks (although he had a decent mid-range shot). Kukoc could do a lot more as a scorer. Moreover, Kukoc was a playmaker. Kukoc did fine as a #2 option with Pippen in 95', not with MJ but that is more evidence that the offense operated worse minus Pippen than minus MJ.

[ELITEpower23]

Do you get an award for having the #1 offense?

Is it the Steve Nash award? :oldlol:

Cooked

:roll:

[light]

1994 Pippen had Horace Grant a decent 2nd option scorer

Kukoc is all Jordan had in 1998 and he couldn't even cut it as a 3rd wheel most of the time, let alone 2nd option

He had Kukoc and Ron Harper. And Longley was productive.

Kukoc - 14/5/4
Harper - 10/4/3
Longley - 12/6/3

That's plenty in a league where you're only scoring 90 points a game.

Nobody talks about Ron Harper on the late 90's Bulls, but it was almost unfair that he was on that team. He was their Iggy. Like Igoudala, Harper also switched from an offensive star to a defensive specialist, but he never lost his offensive sense. His selflessness was a key to the Bulls second three-peat, according to Phil Jackson.

[Bronbron23]

Kukoc was a better scorer than Grant, who scored a lot on putbacks, dunks (although he had a decent mid-range shot). Kukoc could do a lot more as a scorer. Moreover, Kukoc was a playmaker. Kukoc did fine as a #2 option with Pippen in 95', not with MJ but that is more evidence that the offense operated worse minus Pippen than minus MJ.

How do you figure that? As a championship team with phil mj only ever played without pip once and that was in his last year as a 35 year old. Even still the bulls went 24 and 11 which would be right around the 55 game win mark if that trend continued. Pip did it in his prime where mj did it well past his prime.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Do you get an award for having the #1 offense?

Is it the Steve Nash award? :oldlol:

But LeBron fans love to bring up bulls 1994 regular season accomplishments and raptors 2018 regular season accomplishments. Since you guys love regular season so much, I reminded you LeBron has never led a #1 offense

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kukoc was a better scorer than Grant, who scored a lot on putbacks, dunks (although he had a decent mid-range shot). Kukoc could do a lot more as a scorer. Moreover, Kukoc was a playmaker. Kukoc did fine as a #2 option with Pippen in 95', not with MJ but that is more evidence that the offense operated worse minus Pippen than minus MJ.

Horace grant FG% during 3peat: 58, 54, 54

Kukoc FG% during 3peat: 39, 36, 48

Massive difference on their scoring ability.

[Roundball_Rock]

How do you figure that?

Kukoc as #2 option in 95': 16.4/5.5/4.6 on 50.2%, 14.1 game score
Kukoc as #2 option in 98': 14.2/4.3/4.7 on 45.4%, 11.0 game score

Kukoc was a second year player in 95'. He was even better after a month (17.0/5.7/4.9 on 50.9%, 14.9 game score) as a second option.


As a championship team with phil mj only ever played without pip once and that was in his last year as a 35 year old. Even still the bulls went 24 and 11 which would be right around the 55 game win mark if that trend continued. Pip did it in his prime where mj did it well past his prime.

That implies 98' MJ=94' Pippen. MJ was past his prime but he was MVP that year.

The Bulls were on a 56 win pace, which is comparable to their 58 win pace with Pippen in 94'. One caveat is it is easier to function temporarily without a player than over a full season. Players can temporarily just step up, like Rodman did in the 98' case. The Bulls without Rose had a 55 win pace in 12' (for 41% of the season)--but crashed to 45 wins when they were without him for a full season in 13'.

Anyway, we are talking offensive declines, not overall team performance here. Oddly, the defenses improved when both MJ and Pippen were removed.

[Bronbron23]

Horace grant FG% during 3peat: 58, 54, 54

Kukoc FG% during 3peat: 39, 36, 48

Massive difference on their scoring ability.

the numbers dont prove much. They played 2 totally different roles. Kucs role was to shoot the long ball and mid and create at times. Grant got a shit ton of put backs and easy buckets around the rim from dishes from mj and pip mainly. He was nice in the post and had a decent mid bit kukoc is definitely a better overall offensive player.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

the numbers dont prove much. They played 2 totally different roles. Kucs role was to shoot the long ball and mid and create at times. Grant got a shit ton of put backs and easy buckets around the rim from dishes from mj and pip mainly. He was nice in the post and had a decent mid bit kukoc is definitely a better overall offensive player.

Both were 3rd option scorers, sounds like a similar role to me

[Roundball_Rock]

the numbers dont prove much. They played 2 totally different roles. Kucs role was to shoot the long ball and mid and create at times. Grant got a shit ton of put backs and easy buckets around the rim from dishes from mj and pip mainly. He was nice in the post and had a decent mid bit kukoc is definitely a better overall offensive player.

Yeah and Kukoc could create offense for himself to a level Grant couldn't.


Both were 3rd option scorers, sounds like a similar role to me

Not really. Kukoc was a 6th man so he often was the second option while he was on the court (since Jackson liked to always have one of Pippen or MJ on the court at all times). Evidence of this is Kukoc had a usage rate of 21.6% (96'-98') while Grant's was a mere 15.9% (91'-93'). Even in 94' Grant was only 8th on the team in usage, tied with Will Perdue at 18.7%.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah and Kukoc could create offense for himself to a level Grant couldn't.



Not really. Kukoc was a 6th man so he often was the second option while he was on the court (since Jackson liked to always have one of Pippen or MJ on the court at all times). Evidence of this is Kukoc had a usage rate of 21.6% (96'-98') while Grant's was a mere 15.9% (91'-93'). Even in 94' Grant was only 8th on the team in usage, tied with Will Perdue at 18.7%.

They were still technically the 3rd leading scorers and Kukoc in 2/3 title years couldn't even shoot 40% FG

[Roundball_Rock]

That is why people go overboard with the option obsession. What players actually did on the court is more important. Kukoc had 40-50% the usage of Grant, which speaks volumes about their actual roles.

[Indian guy]

Why is MJ getting credit for "leading" the offense when Pippen was the "director" of the offense per Phil Jackson?

And Kerr will tell you Draymond is the one who led GS' offense. Guess he was more valuable than Curry :rolleyes:. Let's not get bogged down by semantics. The leader of the offense is whoever the team's best offensive player is. In Chicago that was far and away MJ.


The offense declined more without Pippen than it did without Jordan.

We don't know where Bulls' ORTG ranked in '98 without Pippen though. Raw PPG tells us nothing after all. Not that a 35-game sample size of an ancient Bulls team just looking to hang on should be held as proof of anything. This is very different from the 1994 Bulls whose core was very much young or in their primes. And they still slid from a #2 offense in 1993 to below league average in 1994. Essentially showing Pip's ability to lead an offense as the #1 man.

[Roundball_Rock]

We don't know where Bulls' ORTG ranked in '98 without Pippen though.

We don't need the rank to see the degree of decline:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png


And they still slid from a #2 offense in 1993 to below league average in 1994.

14th of 27--but that includes Pippen missed 10 games. They were better with him, although we don't have the Orating data for the 72 games he played.


Essentially showing Pip's ability to lead an offense as the #1 man.

Damn, so we have a MJ stan saying (by implication) Ewing couldn't lead an offense as a #1 (since the Knicks were much worse offenses than the 94' Bulls). How weak was MJ's comp? :lebronamazed:


Not that a 35-game sample size of an ancient Bulls team just looking to hang on should be held as proof of anything. This is very different from the 1994 Bulls whose core was very much young or in their primes

Your comment about age is meaningless. We are comparing the 98' Bulls to the 97' Bulls and 98' Bulls; we are comparing the 94' Bulls to the 93' Bulls.

It was 38 games BTW--he missed 3 other games later on.

Anyway, you seem to have a warped view as a Miami fan. Most stars don't miss games every year. It seems you expect players to be like Wade where we have a zillion examples of the team without him since he was missing time regularly. We have a small sample size because Pippen was durable, missing time only in 89', 94', and 98' (and 98' was due to his BS--he could have done it over the summer and not missed time). The Bulls declined substantially each time.

[HylianNightmare]

He never had enough help

[3ball]

Yeah and Kukoc could create offense for himself to a level Grant couldn't.



Not really. Kukoc was a 6th man so he often was the second option while he was on the court (since Jackson liked to always have one of Pippen or MJ on the court at all times). Evidence of this is Kukoc had a usage rate of 21.6% (96'-98') while Grant's was a mere 15.9% (91'-93'). Even in 94' Grant was only 8th on the team in usage, tied with Will Perdue at 18.7%.

Show the win contribution percentages for Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and BJ (WS/48) in the 1994 Playoffs

That would show the extent that guys were outplaying other guys at their minutes level, and therefore contributing most to wins

[Manny98]

Top 10 offenses ever by rORTG

https://i.postimg.cc/Rhdjnkt0/Screenshot-20200606-230403.jpg

The 2017 Cavaliers had the greatest offense ever and LeBron has spearheaded 3 of the top 7 offenses in NBA history

[Indian guy]

We don't need the rank to see the degree of decline:

I'm sure the decline was steep (for the whole league too in 1998 from 1997). Doesn't really say to what extent relative to the league though. I'd venture Bulls' ORTG in those 35 games without Pippen was still around the middle of the pack. Which is pretty decent for that ancient roster.


14th of 27

Their ORTG (106.1) was below league average (106.3).


Damn, so we have a MJ stan saying (by implication) Ewing couldn't lead an offense as a #1 (since the Knicks were much worse offenses than the 94' Bulls). How weak was MJ's comp? :lebronamazed:

Only the most quality of offensive centers (Shaq/Kareem) have the ability to lead good offenses. It's a side of the floor that's dictated by perimeter players otherwise. Big men are much more impactful on the other end of the floor and Ewing's teams were consistently dominant on that end. And he was a notably superior offensive player to Pippen too. I'm sure if he didn't play with poor offensive talent for most of his career in NY, he could've led some high ranking offenses.

[3ball]

Top 10 offenses ever by rORTG

https://i.postimg.cc/Rhdjnkt0/Screenshot-20200606-230403.jpg

The 2017 Cavaliers had the greatest offense ever and LeBron has spearheaded 3 of the top 7 offenses in NBA history

What is rORTG

and playoffs don't count because everyone plays different competition and it's series-specific

i.e. (Lebron-ball got a 127 ortg when they were fresh as a daisy defending DeRozan-ball and laughing..

But apparently it's harder to hit shots when you're worn down from defending, so lebron-ball cratered against the Warriors' ball movement, and the Celtics in ECF to a much lesser extent, aka they wore each other out)

Ultimately (auto-type), lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Top 10 offenses ever by rORTG

https://i.postimg.cc/Rhdjnkt0/Screenshot-20200606-230403.jpg

The 2017 Cavaliers had the greatest offense ever and LeBron has spearheaded 3 of the top 7 offenses in NBA history

Is that regular season? 2016 warriors not there loses credibility. I'm going by basketball reference and looking at all of LeBron's teams offensive ratings, it was never ranked 1st relative to league.

[Manny98]

Is that regular season? 2016 warriors not there loses credibility. I'm going by basketball reference and looking at all of LeBron's teams offensive ratings, it was never ranked 1st relative to league.
Playoffs > regular season

LeBron teams have the best offenses in the playoffs

No one considers the 16 Warriors to be a GOAT offense because they dipped when faced with playoff physicality

[ELITEpower23]

Playoffs > regular season

LeBron teams have the best offenses in the playoffs

No one considers the 16 Warriors to be a GOAT offense because they dipped when faced with playoff physicality

Etherrr

[Manny98]

What is rORTG

and playoffs don't count because everyone plays different competition and it's series-specific

i.e. (Lebron-ball got a 127 ortg when they were fresh as a daisy defending DeRozan-ball and laughing..

But apparently it's harder to hit shots when you're worn down from defending, so lebron-ball cratered against the Warriors' ball movement, and the Celtics in ECF to a much lesser extent, aka they wore each other out)

Ultimately (auto-type), lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively
Playoffs do count because that's the most high intensity basketball that's played

Regular season you can pad your ORTG against lottery teams whilst in the postseason you're playing against top tier teams all playoffs

[BigShotBob]

Playoffs do count because that's the most high intensity basketball that's played

Regular season you can pad your ORTG against lottery teams whilst in the postseason you're playing against top tier teams all playoffs

Raptors weren't a top-tier team sorry

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm sure the decline was steep (for the whole league too in 1998 from 1997). Doesn't really say to what extent relative to the league though.

The "r" is relative in the graphic...


I'd venture Bulls' ORTG in those 35 games without Pippen was still around the middle of the pack. Which is pretty decent for that ancient roster.

The same roster that was #1 the prior year. :lol


Their ORTG (106.1) was below league average (106.3).

What was their ORTG in the games Pippen actually played?


Only the most quality of offensive centers (Shaq/Kareem) have the ability to lead good offenses

BS.


he was a notably superior offensive player to Pippen too

Yada, yada. Every 90's star>>>Pippen as a scorer (which is what MJ stans always mean when they talk about "offense" since you all don't understand the concept of passing the ball). Not worth responding to this since you have proven to be make these claims in bad faith. Wade scores 20 PPG=great; Pippen 20 PPG=he sucks. BS like that that can't be taken seriously.

[3ball]

The "r" is relative in the graphic...



The same roster that was #1 the prior year. :lol



What was their ORTG in the games Pippen actually played?



BS.



Yada, yada. Every 90's star>>>Pippen as a scorer (which is what MJ stans always mean when they talk about "offense" since you all don't understand the concept of passing the ball). Not worth responding to this since you have proven to be make these claims in bad faith. Wade scores 20 PPG=great; Pippen 20 PPG=he sucks. BS like that that can't be taken seriously.

"Flash" Wade was reduced to prime Pippen stats in 2013 and 2014

That's why people complain about 13-14' Wade - he'd been reduced to prime Pippen

And yes - that's only 21/5/5 or so - not exactly beating the world

But again, only MJ beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with bad stats from his sidekick, aka 15-16 on 33-41%.. MJ won 5 series against top teams like this - only he had carry-jobs against good teams

[OldSchoolBBall]

Dude has had ridiculous amounts of offensive talent on his team, has in fact CREATED hi own superteams multiple times, and still has never had a #1 offense. Sad. :lol: