Isiah Thomas or Clyde Drexler on the Dream Team?

[Roundball_Rock]

This comes up a lot and the final NBA spot (there was a college spot that was between Shaq, Laettner) on the Dream Team ("DT") was between Isiah and Drexler. Who do you think should have gotten it? I will also throw in "other" but that mainly is to capture the small number of people who think Wilkins should have made it.

One misconception that is common in DT talk is people tend to think the DT was about lifetime achievement awards. That isn't what the DT was. The purpose of the DT was to win a gold medal by putting the best roster out there. What players did in the past, which would logically favor older players with longer resumes, was irrelevant to what they could do in the future on the DT.

I come down on the Drexler side. Circa 1992 Drexler clearly was the better player. It is hard to have a Dream Team and exclude a top 5 player.

[3ball]

Did Pippen lead a team to the Finals?

How about 2 teams?

Did he average 27/7/7 over a 5-6 year prime from 87-92?

Was he compared to MJ or runner-up in MVP

So how is Pippen over Drexler in 92'?

Drexler was considered better and everything shows that

[Phoenix]

In terms of who was better AT THE TIME, Clyde. Though I would also like to raise, who would you say is better in 92 between Isiah and a retired, post HIV-announcment Magic?

[Overdrive]

Did Pippen lead a team to the Finals?

How about 2 teams?

Did he average 27/7/7 over a 5-6 year prime from 87-92?

Was he compared to MJ or runner-up in MVP

So how is Pippen over Drexler in 92'?

Drexler was considered better and everything shows that

**** off.

[ELITEpower23]

Did Pippen lead a team to the Finals?

How about 2 teams?

Did he average 27/7/7 over a 5-6 year prime from 87-92?

Was he compared to MJ or runner-up in MVP

So how is Pippen over Drexler in 92'?

Drexler was considered better and everything shows that

OP said nothing about Pippen.

**** off

[Roundball_Rock]

One thing I forgot in the OP: for a while it looked like Stockton would not play due to injury. Reportedly, if that happened Dumars would have replaced Stockton (so not Zeke, not Wilkins).


Though I would also like to raise, who would you say is better in 92 between Isiah and a retired, post HIV-announcment Magic?

Magic was selected before he retired, though. The initial round (10 players) was in 1991. The last two spots (Drexler and Laettner) were selected in May 92'.

Good question. Hard to say. Both had declined a lot by the summer of 92'.

[Roundball_Rock]

Did he average 27/7/7 over a 5-6 year prime from 87-92?

BTW we can't have fake information, a specialty of 3ball/2ball, posted. Drexler didn't average 27/7/7 over an extended period. He did it for two years. His 1988-1995 line was 23/7/6. If you cut it off at 92' it was 25/7/6.

As a comparison, Isiah was 20/4/10 from 83'-90' including 21/4/12 from 84'-87' if we want to cherry pick parts of primes like with Drexler.

[PeroAntic]

Nobody even mentioned Pippen:roll:

The biggest travesty was Laetner instead of Shaq. Imagine if Shaq was on that team instead of Laetner. There wouldnt have been a debate between 92 vs 08 or 12.

[3ball]

BTW we can't have fake information, a specialty of 3ball/2ball, posted. Drexler didn't average 27/7/7 over an extended period. He did it for two years. His 1988-1995 line was 23/7/6. If you cut it off at 92' it was 25/7/6.

As a comparison, Isiah was 20/4/10 from 83'-90' including 21/4/12 from 84'-87' if we want to cherry pick parts of primes like with Drexler.
Pippen made that team because of jordan

Why would anyone think Pippen was equal to someone that was compared to Jordan, aka Drexler?.. and how could anyone think Pippen is better than his daddy Isiah?

It's revisionist history 30 years later by young guys who weren't there

And Drexler's peak was 27/7/7, with 25/7/6 from 87-92' including 2 Finals runs..... and 26/8/5 in those Finals against Rodman, MJ, and Pippen... He was compared to Jordan

What had Pippen done at that point to match that?

[ELITEpower23]

Pippen made that team because of jordan

Why would anyone think Pippen was equal to someone that was compared to Jordan, aka Drexler?.. and how could anyone think Pippen is better than his daddy Isiah?

It's revisionist history 30 years later by young guys who weren't there

And Drexler's peak was 27/7/7, with 25/7/6 from 87-92' including 2 Finals runs..... and 26/8/5 in those Finals against Rodman, MJ, and Pippen... He was compared to Jordan

What had Pippen done at that point to match that?
Isiah Thomas or Clyde Drexler on the Dream Team?

3iq: PIPPEN!!

[light]

So how is Pippen over Drexler in 92'?

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

"The order was deliberate. Michael and Magic are the obvious one-two. Daly wanted Pippen for his long-armed, cover-the-court defensive abilities and his offensive versatility. True, he had seen his own team turn Pippen into a shell of a player many times, but the Bulls sideman had upped his game considerably during the Bull '91 championship run. Players are often damned with the faint praise of being "complimentary," but Pippen was perhaps unique in this respect: he was a superstar complimentary player."

- Dream Team by Jack McCallum, pg. 102

Basically, Chuck Daly considered Pippen to be a top 3 "most essential for success" player because of his all-around game (defense and ball-handling), while Drexler was less dimensional (less useful).

And the other argument against adding Drexler was that they already had Jordan and more than enough scoring.

[ELITEpower23]

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

"The order was deliberate. Michael and Magic are the obvious one-two. Daly wanted Pippen for his long-armed, cover-the-court defensive abilities and his offensive versatility. True, he had seen his own team turn Pippen into a shell of a player many times, but the Bulls sideman had upped his game considerably during the Bull '91 championship run. Players are often damned with the faint praise of being "complimentary," but Pippen was perhaps unique in this respect: he was a superstar complimentary player."

- Dream Team by Jack McCallum, pg. 102

Basically, Chuck Daly considered Pippen to be a top 3 "most essential for success" player because of his all-around game (defense and ball-handling), while Drexler was less dimensional (less useful).

And the other argument against adding Drexler was that they already had Jordan and more than enough scoring.

So Pippen was an OBVIOUS selection to literally everyone except for 3ball? :lol

[3ball]

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

"The order was deliberate. Michael and Magic are the obvious one-two. Daly wanted Pippen for his long-armed, cover-the-court defensive abilities and his offensive versatility. True, he had seen his own team turn Pippen into a shell of a player many times, but the Bulls sideman had upped his game considerably during the Bull '91 championship run. Players are often damned with the faint praise of being "complimentary," but Pippen was perhaps unique in this respect: he was a superstar complimentary player."

- Dream Team by Jack McCallum, pg. 102

Basically, Chuck Daly considered Pippen to be a top 3 "most essential for success" player because of his all-around game (defense and ball-handling), while Drexler was less dimensional (less useful).

And the other argument against adding Drexler was that they already had Jordan and more than enough scoring.

Drexler was just hidden in the Northwest but his steals and blocks match Pippen's while leading better team defenses despite less defensive help.. Drexler was an excellent defender and simply overlooked... Jordan made him look bad in 92', so people overlooked him even more

But Drexler's winning capabilities have proven far superior to Pippen and it's not close

Of course daly is going with the hot hand, aka Da Bulls... Drexler just wasn't popular

[light]

So Pippen was an OBVIOUS selection to literally everyone except for 3ball? :lol

Yes, Pippen was considered as much of a lock as Karl Malone or David Robinson.

Larry Bird didn't make Daly's wish list because of age and injuries and Barkley didn't make Daly's wish list because he was a headache.

Mullin had push back from the selection committee but Daly was very high on him.

When the first 10 players were announced the only controversial issue was, "Why isn't Isiah on the team?" Pippen was not a controversial selection.

[3ball]

Yes, Pippen was considered as much of a lock as Karl Malone or David Robinson.

Larry Bird didn't make Daly's wish list because of age and injuries and Barkley didn't make Daly's wish list because he was a headache.

Mullin had push back from the selection committee but Daly was very high on him.

When the first 10 players were announced the only controversial issue was, "Why isn't Isiah on the team?" Pippen was not a controversial selection.

Yes winning the title biased people in favor of the 2-time all-star

[Roundball_Rock]

Nobody even mentioned Pippen

Pippen living rent free in his head. :lol


The biggest travesty was Laetner instead of Shaq. Imagine if Shaq was on that team instead of Laetner. There wouldnt have been a debate between 92 vs 08 or 12.

I agree and their rationale was weak: that Laetner accomplished more as a college player. Who cares? They didn't apply that logic to NBA players. Shaq was the better player, period, and should have been on the team.


Isiah Thomas or Clyde Drexler on the Dream Team?

3iq: PIPPEN!!

:roll:


Basically, Chuck Daly considered Pippen to be a top 3 "most essential for success" player because of his all-around game (defense and ball-handling), while Drexler was less dimensional (less useful).

Only in the fantasyland known as Jordanstan was Pippen the last pick for the DT. In the real world, as noted by you by way of Daly, he was a no brainer "must have" player.

Also, when the original players were selected Magic did not have HIV. If Daly was making the list two months later presumably Pippen would rise to 2nd behind MJ.

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

So these are the "must have" guys to Daly. The rest could be filled in around them.


So Pippen was an OBVIOUS selection to literally everyone except for 3ball?

Not just him, all MJ stans. It is the echo chamber/circle jerk effect I speak of. They talk so much among themselves they have become detached from reality and the rest of the world. :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

The team was selected in September 1991 and was supposed to be based on the 1991 and 1992 seasons. Also I thought Nique deserved a spot but he ended up tearing Achilles

[aceman]

One thing I forgot in the OP: for a while it looked like Stockton would not play due to injury. Reportedly, if that happened Dumars would have replaced Stockton (so not Zeke, not Wilkins).



Magic was selected before he retired, though. The initial round (10 players) was in 1991. The last two spots (Drexler and Laettner) were selected in May 92'.

Good question. Hard to say. Both had declined a lot by the summer of 92'.

Simple - Dumars was a great two way player like Stockton.

[aceman]

The team was selected in September 1991 and was supposed to be based on the 1991 and 1992 seasons. Also I thought Nique deserved a spot but he ended up tearing Achilles

If anything it was Drexler & Wilkins completing for last spot as both were athletic wings. From everything I've read Wilkins wasn't given much consideration most likely due to injury. Isiah was also overlooked but for other reasons

[Roundball_Rock]

Simple - Dumars was a great two way player like Stockton.

True but it is important context. The "12th" man waiting in the wings was Dumars, not Isiah or anyone else.


If anything it was Drexler & Wilkins completing for last spot as both were athletic wings. From everything I've read Wilkins wasn't given much consideration most likely due to injury

The problem with Wilkins is he was a one trick pony (volume scoring). Extremely great at that one thing but he contributed nothing else to a team. Drexler could also produce as a playmaker and play some defense. Moreover, Wilkin's calling card wasn't needed on the team. Everybody on the team was a 20+ PPG scorer at minimum, except for Stockton.

[3ball]

True but it is important context. The "12th" man waiting in the wings was Dumars, not Isiah or anyone else.



The problem with Wilkins is he was a one trick pony (volume scoring). Extremely great at that one thing but he contributed nothing else to a team. Drexler could also produce as a playmaker and play some defense. Moreover, Wilkin's calling card wasn't needed on the team. Everybody on the team was a 20+ PPG scorer at minimum, except for Stockton.

Wilkins actually played like Zion (quick catch-and-score) but with adept mid-range jumpshooting touch

He just didn't have any help.. no sidekick, aka 2nd scorer... Willis was his sidekick... So how could he compete with the Celtics or Pistons?...

But if we gave Wilkins a 2nd scoring punch like Joe Dumars who could help the team defensively too?... He'd have what MJ had, and been battling MJ every year in ECF... that's what the conference would've been in the late 80's if Dominique got Dumars instead of Isiah...

As it was, Dominique won 57 games with Willis (more than Pippen's 55), and took the Celtics 7 games with legendary clutch and shootout against Bird.. That's better than Pippen ever did, and Dominique destroys him statistically as well .. Dominique was far superior to Pippen and MJ would've won the 88-90 championships with Nique instead of undeveloped Pippen.. Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior production

[Whoah10115]

It's actually irrelevant.

Never really came down to Clyde vs. Isiah. Isiah was not gonna be on the team cuz everyone disliked him. Nothing to do with him vs anybody.

As far as Pippen, 3ball you need to understand that Pippen wasn't considered as good as those guys back then, but he was actually wanted and needed for fit, and wouldn't have been wanted if he not highly regarded.

Also, Pippen himself said he was surprised. Comes off very humble.

There is no question. The Dream Team is the best team. Shouldn't have had any college player, really.

[3ball]

It's actually irrelevant.

Never really came down to Clyde vs. Isiah. Isiah was not gonna be on the team cuz everyone disliked him. Nothing to do with him vs anybody.

As far as Pippen, 3ball you need to understand that Pippen wasn't considered as good as those guys back then, but he was actually wanted and needed for fit, and wouldn't have been wanted if he not highly regarded.

Also, Pippen himself said he was surprised. Comes off very humble.

There is no question. The Dream Team is the best team. Shouldn't have had any college player, really.

See my previous post above where I talk about the misperception about Dominique's game - people erroneously viewed him as an unfundamentally-sound, one-dimensional gunner just like Jordan

Jordan got the 2nd scoring punch he needed to win and prove everyone wrong, while Nique didn't... Give Nique a guy like Dumars instead of Wittman and he would've battled MJ for the East every year

[Roundball_Rock]

He just didn't have any help.. no sidekick, aka 2nd scorer... Willis was his sidekick

Willis was fine as a sidekick for his era. 16/11/1 for his prime. 18/16/2 at his peak.


But if we gave Wilkins a 2nd scoring punch like Joe Dumars who could help the team defensively too?

Wilkins had a strong team around him in 94'--and the team traded him for Danny Manning at the deadline. That speaks volumes about how they perceived Wilkins. Has a team in 1st place (tied with the Bulls) ever traded its best player at the trade deadline before or after?


Never really came down to Clyde vs. Isiah

It reportedly did but Isiah have those strikes against him for personal reasons. The reason for the OP is those were the final two in the discussion. It wasn't Clyde vs. Nique or Clyde vs. Dumars or Clyde vs. Worthy, etc. Zeke was the opposition, even if his chances were severely hampered by being hated by half the team.

All this Nique talk ignores he wasn't ever really considered for the DT. It was the 11 NBA guys who made, the college guy who made it plus Isiah, Shaq (college), and Dumars (injury replacement). So that is 15 players in the mix--no Nique...

[iamgine]

Larry Bird shouldn't be selected. It should've been Nique or Worthy. If Bird wasn't selected, there would be no controversy regarding Isiah.

[Bawkish]

Larry Bird shouldn't be selected. It should've been Nique or Worthy. If Bird wasn't selected, there would be no controversy regarding Isiah.

That's impossible. They couldn't pass up the once in a lifetime chance of having MJ, Magic & Bird on 1 team

[jayfan]

After Jordan, Magic & Bird, Isiah was 4th most deserving. Followed by Barkley.

[Turbo Slayer]

Drexler.

[Roundball_Rock]

After Jordan, Magic & Bird, Isiah was 4th most deserving. Followed by Barkley.

By lifetime achievement but what about as merited by how good he was relative to Drexler circa 91' and 92'? As noted in the OP, the DT's goal wasn't to hand out lifetime achievement awards.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is another way to assess the DT selections: the all-NBA teams the year of the DT. Keep in mind only 10 of the 12 DT players were eligible since Magic was retired and another was in college.

DT members in italics.

1991-92

FIRST TEAM

F: Chris Mullin
F: Karl Malone
C: David Robinson
G: Michael Jordan
G: Clyde Drexler

SECOND TEAM

F: Charles Barkley
F: Scottie Pippen
C: Patrick Ewing
G: Tim Hardaway
G: John Stockton

So 9 of the 10 were on the DT. The one exception is Bird (he wasn't third team either), and Bird missed half the season.

[jayfan]

By lifetime achievement but what about as merited by how good he was relative to Drexler circa 91' and 92'? As noted in the OP, the DT's goal wasn't to hand out lifetime achievement awards.


It was, though. Which explains why Bird & Magic were on the team.

Drexler was unquestionably better than Bird in '92.

[Roundball_Rock]

It was, though. Which explains why Bird & Magic were on the team.

Drexler was unquestionably better than Bird in '92.

Magic was selected before he retired. So at the time of the original selections he was considered the second best player in the NBA.

Bird you can argue but it appears he was on there largely for leadership and symbolism. Mullin was on the team for his shooting ability, which they needed against zones. Bird was an elite shooter himself who also was a great playmaker so you could also construe him as a better version of Mullin overall, even without getting to leadership and symbolism.

If we are going strictly by how good players were by 92' then Drexler has to be high, since some considered him possibly the 2nd best player in the league and he clearly was top 5 at minimum. The thing about Drexler is he did not make the original 10--suggesting his career year in 92' enhanced his reputation more than it was circa the summer/fall of 91'. I suspect he also was hurt by the presence of other similar wings who were more versatile than he was.

By the same token, Bird would not be in the top 10 but Bird was a special case for leadership purposes. The other players were selected mainly for ability (they wanted leadership from Magic and MJ too) and they backed it up by taking 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd team spots in 92' (Bird the only exception).

[iamgine]

Magic was selected before he retired. So at the time of the original selections he was considered the second best player in the NBA.

Bird you can argue but it appears he was on there largely for leadership and symbolism. Mullin was on the team for his shooting ability, which they needed against zones. Bird was an elite shooter himself who also was a great playmaker so you could also construe him as a better version of Mullin overall, even without getting to leadership and symbolism.

If we are going strictly by how good players were by 92' then Drexler has to be high, since some considered him possibly the 2nd best player in the league and he clearly was top 5 at minimum. The thing about Drexler is he did not make the original 10--suggesting his career year in 92' enhanced his reputation more than it was circa the summer/fall of 91'. I suspect he also was hurt by the presence of other similar wings who were more versatile than he was.

By the same token, Bird would not be in the top 10 but Bird was a special case for leadership purposes. The other players were selected mainly for ability (they wanted leadership from Magic and MJ too) and they backed it up by taking 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd team spots in 92' (Bird the only exception).
Bird had leadership and shooting and other stuff too but lets be honest, he was there mainly because he was Larry Bird, not because of all those stuff. So did Magic, cause they could easily replace him after his HIV announcement. And that's really enough reason. Historic event calls for historic people. No one wanna see Brad Daugherty or something. Kobe would be selected if the dream team happen in 2015 just cause he's Kobe Bryant. So would MJ in 2002.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bird had leadership and shooting and other stuff too but lets be honest, he was there mainly because he was Larry Bird, not because of all those stuff. So did Magic, cause they could easily replace him after his HIV announcement. And that's really enough reason. Historic event calls for historic people. No one wanna see Brad Daugherty or something. Kobe would be selected if the dream team happen in 2015 just cause he's Kobe Bryant. So would MJ in 2002.

Fair points on those two.

[ronniec]

Larry Bird shouldn't be selected. It should've been Nique or Worthy. If Bird wasn't selected, there would be no controversy regarding Isiah.

We all know why Bird was selected.
Jordan wanted him (and Magic) as captains; Magic wanted him on the team; and even the HOF ceremony it was Bird to wrap up the speech.
Bird was well deserved to be on the DT by his merit.
Nobody ever said Bird was on the DT because of his season performance.

[BigShotBob]

Neither, and I say that as a huge fan of Zeke (my favorite player ever).

[Soundwave]

Yes, Pippen was considered as much of a lock as Karl Malone or David Robinson.

Larry Bird didn't make Daly's wish list because of age and injuries and Barkley didn't make Daly's wish list because he was a headache.

Mullin had push back from the selection committee but Daly was very high on him.

When the first 10 players were announced the only controversial issue was, "Why isn't Isiah on the team?" Pippen was not a controversial selection.

Can you guys just state you weren't alive/around/watching basketball at this time, because it's quite obvious.

At the time lots of people questioned the Pippen pick, he was not that established as a star player at that time and there was a perception among a lot of people he was picked to ensure Jordan would sign on because he was not enthusiastic about the idea of playing in the Olympics, but the NBA badly needed him or the team wouldn't be anywhere near as marketable.

But at the time, absolutely there were a lot of people questioning that pick (they were wrong to do so).

At the time, shit the Bulls were not even a dynasty they were just a one time winner. The supporting cast wasn't that deified as it would become with later successive titles. A lot of people at that time still questioned whether or not the Bulls would win as many titles as the Celtics/Lakers.

When the team was announced Scottie Pippen had never even averaged 18 ppg and was a 1 time All-Star in the NBA.

I remember being friends with a Lakers fan at the time who thought the selection was bull shit and Worthy should have been chosen over Pippen and insisted the only reason for the pick was because the NBA marketing team was desperate to get Jordan to sign on.

Now in time Pippen would prove himself, but when the team was announced he was no where near as established of a player as players that were left off like Isiah or Worthy or Dominque.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yet again, we see how detached MJ stans are from the real world. In the real world Pippen was a "no brainer" for the DT (documented numerous times on ISH in recent days in response to Jordan mythologists); in Jordanstan he shouldn't even have been on it or should have been the 12th man.


Can you guys just state you weren't alive/around/watching basketball at this time, because it's quite obvious.

He was the 4th pick for the team; he was 3rd on Daly's list as one of six "must have/essential players". "At the time." Jordan stans' circle jerking over fantasies of Pippen doesn't negate these facts 30 years later.

What we hear is incredibly dumb: that because younger players have less accomplishments (Pippen, Robinson were the youngest NBA players on the team--shockingly they were also the least accomplished!) they should cede spots to inferior players who were older. That is a laughable way to build a team.

[Soundwave]

Yet again, we see how detached MJ stans are from the real world. In the real world Pippen was a "no brainer" for the DT (documented numerous times on ISH in recent days in response to Jordan mythologists); in Jordanstan he shouldn't even have been on it or should have been the 12th man.



He was the 4th pick for the team; he was 3rd on Daly's list as one of six "must have/essential players". "At the time." Jordan stans' circle jerking over fantasies of Pippen doesn't negate these facts 30 years later.

What we hear is incredibly dumb: that because younger players have less accomplishments (Pippen, Robinson were the youngest NBA players on the team--shockingly they were also the least accomplished!) they should cede spots to inferior players who were older. That is a laughable way to build a team.

Just admit you were not alive/watching the sport at the time, because it's obvious.

Daly liked Pippen and why wouldn't he, the Bulls trashed the Pistons badly.

But that doesn't mean this was the consensus feeling of the entire basketball world of that time, a lot of people at that time were not that familiar with Scottie Pippen. This is 1991, the Bulls were just beginning their ascent the supporting cast was not deified in the same way especially outside of the Chicago area.

David Robinson was always hyped to be an All-Star and the next great franchise big man, growing up getting a David Robinson rookie basketball card for example was a big deal, everyone was certain he was the next great NBA superstar.

Don't freaking lecture people on shit when it's obvious you weren't even around then, it's frankly embarrassing.

Yes Pippen would eventually become a consensus star player and the Bulls would become a dynasty but at the TIME, plenty of people were not on the Bulls bandwagon to begin with and were not sold on him being on the team. A lot of the selections were seen as political.

Living on the West coast at that time I can tell you for a fact the Pippen pick was not universally lauded at the time and it was seen as a cop out to appease Jordan. I didn't agree with that as a Bulls fan, but from other fanbases there was definitely grumbling.

[Roundball_Rock]

hat doesn't mean this was the consensus feeling of the entire basketball world of that time


Don't freaking lecture people on shit when it's obvious you weren't even around then, it's frankly embarrassing.


Yes Pippen would eventually become a consensus star player and the Bulls would become a dynasty but at the TIME, plenty of people


Living on the West coast at that time I can tell you for a fact the Pippen pick was not universally lauded at the time

You missed the point, which has been drilled repeatedly by multiple posters in detail in response to multiple fans of the same retired player in multiple threads. Yet we keep hearing the same exact BS.

He was a "no brainer" to the people actually involved in assembling the team. In other words, to the people who mattered. What we hear from Jordan stans (and only MJ stans) is he was a borderline pick for the team which is what is frankly embarrassing and laughable. The borderline pick was Drexler who MJ fans laud on here all the time. Pippen was the opposite. As has been shown, he was one of the six "must have" for example for Daly. From this thread on page 2:


Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

"The order was deliberate. Michael and Magic are the obvious one-two. Daly wanted Pippen for his long-armed, cover-the-court defensive abilities and his offensive versatility.

So for people keeping score, the guys who didn't make that list of 7 essential players including Barkley, Bird, Drexler, Stockton who eventually made the DT and guys who didn't like SI.

Yet the guy who was 3rd on the list behind MJ and Magic is the one we keep hearing about (from one fan base of course). :oldlol:

Another hilarity is these guys acting like Robinson, Mullin, Stockton were this established HOF players at the time (in contrast to Pippen). Stockton wasn't even a starter until his third of fourth season.

[Soundwave]

Yes John Stockton, who had led the NBA in assists for 4 straight seasons (more than Magic) wasn't an established player apparently by 1991.

[Roundball_Rock]

Now the goal posts shift as the discussion shifts to someone not named Pippen. With respect to Pippen we repeatedly are told he was questionable because he did not have a lengthy resume. Thanks to #badfaith the standard for other players magically becomes: "the guy was good, therefore he deserved to be on it." At least it is conceded the argument vis-a-vis Pippen isn't a legit argument.

Stockton and Mullin were 2-time all-stars, Pippen and Robinson 1-time all-stars at the time the original 10 were selected. If it is about resume Isiah, Wilkins, Worthy, and many other older players all trounced them but resumes/lifetime achievement wasn't what the DT was about (other than the exception of Bird).

Stockton was not even a starter on his own team until his fourth season (88').

[Whoah10115]

Yes John Stockton, who had led the NBA in assists for 4 straight seasons (more than Magic) wasn't an established player apparently by 1991.

Roundball_Rock knows all, didn't you hear? Everybody else is detached from reality.

[Soundwave]

Now the goal posts shift as the discussion shifts to someone not named Pippen. With respect to Pippen we repeatedly are told he was questionable because he did not have a lengthy resume. Thanks to #badfaith the standard for other players magically becomes: "the guy was good, therefore he deserved to be on it." At least it is conceded the argument vis-a-vis Pippen isn't a legit argument.

Stockton and Mullin were 2-time all-stars, Pippen and Robinson 1-time all-stars at the time the original 10 were selected. If it is about resume Isiah, Wilkins, Worthy, and many other older players all trounced them but resumes/lifetime achievement wasn't what the DT was about (other than the exception of Bird).

Stockton was not even a starter on his own team until his fourth season (88').

Why don't you just f**king ask people who were alive in 1991 and watching basketball at the time.

Yes, there were a number of people that did not like the Pippen selection at the time and saw it as pandering to get a reluctant Jordan to agree to play.

It's not that freaking hard, 1991 was not World War II-era.

David Robinson was seen as a franchise superstar player, many people considered him to be the future of the NBA full stop that would succeed Jordan as the next face of the NBA. The only reason he was not dominating in the NBA earlier was because of his Navy service, everyone knew that, he had two seasons already as a top 10 player in the league.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why don't you just f**king ask people who were alive in 1991 and watching basketball at the time

Relax. You are a smart guy. Cool down and you can get the point that we are all making: in the eyes of the people actually involved in assembling the team Pippen was a no brainer. Was a buddy of yours in LA in disagreement? Perhaps. Who cares?


David Robinson was seen as a franchise superstar player

The irony is lost on you.


Roundball_Rock knows all, didn't you hear? Everybody else is detached from reality.

I operate too high above the rim for less intelligent posters. The point there was simple: using the very logic of Pippen detractors on Stockton (and Mullin). I apologize if something so simple sailed over your head.

The idiocy is amusing. Stockton is established because he was a good player circa 91'. Yet these small brains scramble at the thought of turning that thought process to Pippen.Suddenly not having a lengthy resume doesn't matter. All that counts is being certifiably good circa 91' (except if your name is Pippen--where is your resume, Pip?). Is it really that hard to understand a point so simple? Every little thing can't be spoon fed.

With respect to being detached from reality, we have yet to see a single piece of evidence from anyone actually involved in assembling the team to support the alternate reality. If it is accurate, then surely it exists? All we have heard is Soundwave's 10 year old buddy in LA didn't think Pippen should have been on the DT. Big whoop. To hammer it home: we have yet to see a single piece of evidence from anyone actually involved in assembling the team to support the alternate reality. Understand?

Meanwhile we have quotes from Chuck Daly, the Dream Team book author, the New York Times' coverage from then, etc. all supporting the fact (sorry if it gets Space Jam panties in a wad) that Pippen was a no brainer for the DT.

[Roundball_Rock]

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

"The order was deliberate. Michael and Magic are the obvious one-two. Daly wanted Pippen for his long-armed, cover-the-court defensive abilities and his offensive versatility. True, he had seen his own team turn Pippen into a shell of a player many times, but the Bulls sideman had upped his game considerably during the Bull '91 championship run. Players are often damned with the faint praise of being "complimentary," but Pippen was perhaps unique in this respect: he was a superstar complimentary player."

- Dream Team by Jack McCallum, pg. 102

Basically, Chuck Daly considered Pippen to be a top 3 "most essential for success" player because of his all-around game (defense and ball-handling), while Drexler was less dimensional (less useful).

And the other argument against adding Drexler was that they already had Jordan and more than enough scoring.

I don't see Stockton on the list? :confusedshrug:

Here is the New York Times from 1991 (posted in other threads).



NBA Season Preview: Pippen's Stunning Leap Into Jordan's League

Pippen then set out on what would become his most spectacular rise. If Michael Jordan with the ball in midflight is beyond description, then Pippen's occupation of neighboring air space is beyond N.B.A. logic. Here is a midsize player who has elevated himself from complete unknown to universally recognized superstar and has done so in the shadow of the most devastating midsize talent the sport has ever produced.

"He's one of the stars of this league now," Jordan said. "He should be treated accordingly."

A person familiar with the United States Olympic selections, while requesting anonymity, said that Pippen was the fourth player chosen, behind Jordan, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. Pippen interpreted his selection to mean he had "arrived, basically speaking." Bulls Coach Phil Jackson speaks more expansively. "The reason we were able to win the championship last year was the development of Scottie Pippen," he said.


At 6 feet 8 inches and 215 pounds, angular and muscular, Pippen has grown into the prototypical N.B.A. small forward without surrendering the instincts and skills of a guard. "What people may not yet realize is that what we have here is a Julius Erving-type player," Jackson said.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.html

But hey, Soundwave's kid buddy disagreed. Who is the Olympic Committee and Chuck Daly to disagree?

I don't get why the New York Times is saying "universally recognized superstar." We have people on ISH saying they disagreed then. Why doesn't their august opinion count?

[RRR3]

"Pippen averaged 21.6/8.9/5.8/2.5/1.1 on 56.4 TS% as the 2nd option on an NBA champion in the 91 playoffs, but he obviously sucked that year because he didn't make the All-Star team for some reason"-MJ stans

[Roundball_Rock]

"Pippen averaged 21.6/8.9/5.8/2.5/1.1 on 56.4 TS% as the 2nd option on an NBA champion in the 91 playoffs, but he obviously sucked that year because he didn't make the All-Star team for some reason"-MJ stans

My elementary school friend said in 1991 Pippen wasn't that good so I'm not sure he should be on the Dream Team. F what Pippen did on the court in 90' and 91' or the paper of record calling him a "universally recognized superstar" in October 91'. I know what I know and the facts be damned. Reporting from then, or later in a 2013 book on the team (all which says the same thing) is all fake news.

BTW damn, did you see that Dominique Wilkins? If only these imbeciles who built that DT would know how great he was like I did as a child. Dat PPG! :bowdown:

[Soundwave]

"Pippen averaged 21.6/8.9/5.8/2.5/1.1 on 56.4 TS% as the 2nd option on an NBA champion in the 91 playoffs, but he obviously sucked that year because he didn't make the All-Star team for some reason"-MJ stans

He had one good playoffs to that point in his career, his career high in scoring was one 17.8 ppg season at that point.

James Worthy had 3 NBA titles, 1 Finals MVP, multiple All-Star apperances, multiple 20 ppg seasons, and was just in the Finals himself as well for example.

There was definitely some butt hurt Lakers fans for example that felt the Pippen choice was to placate Jordan.

You guys don't know this shit because you weren't around ok, which is fine, but don't go telling other people then what was going on. Ask someone who was actually following basketball in 1991 and they will tell you the same thing. It was not some unanimously beloved decision. Maybe in the Chicago-area but sure as f*ck not everywhere else.

It would be like Pascal Siakim (if he was American) being chosen over a more established player like Klay Thompson or Russell Westbrook or something based on one playoff stretch. Players like Wilkins and Worthy were far more well known at the time. There were lots of Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, etc. fans that were saying that selection was the league catering to Jordan at the time.

[Roundball_Rock]

I forgot to mention this earlier but Isiah blamed Stockton for taking his spot. He set out to embarrass Stockton the next time they played, scored more than he had in 8 years. The next game Malone paid him back by clothes-lining him and injuring him.


You guys don't know this shit because you weren't around ok, which is fine, but don't go telling other people then what was going on

We have provided the information regarding the people who were involved in the team; all we hear in response is what random kids on the street thought.


James Worthy had 3 NBA titles, 1 Finals MVP, multiple All-Star apperances, multiple 20 ppg seasons, and was just in the Finals himself as well for example.

And wasn't seriously considered for the DT while Pippen was a "lock" and "essential" per the people involved in the selections/coaching. Yet we are hearing Worthy deserved it over Pippen. He wasn't even seriously considered. If this isn't "detached from reality" what is?

[Soundwave]

I forgot to mention this earlier but Isiah blamed Stockton for taking his spot. He set out to embarrass Stockton the next time they played, scored more than he had in 8 years. The next game Malone paid him back by clothes-lining him and injuring him.



We have provided the information regarding the people who were involved in the team; all we hear in response is what random kids on the street thought.



And wasn't seriously considered for the DT while Pippen was a "lock" and "essential" per the people involved in the selections/coaching. Yet we are hearing Worthy deserved it over Pippen. He wasn't even seriously considered. If this isn't "detached from reality" what is?

Detached from reality is lecturing people who were actually watching basketball at the time and acting like an authority on it when you clearly weren't probably even born or watching basketball at that time. Maybe one day some snot nosed kid will try to lecture you on LeBron's Decision based on never seeing it at the time, lol.

I'm not disputing that Daly loved Pippen (for good reason, he's a heckuva player that whupped the Pistons in 91) I am saying there were people who did not like the selection at the time. Ask anyone who was a Lakers or Pistons or Celtics fan at the time for starters.

If this forum existed back then there would be a bunch of people whining about the league catering to Jordan and pointing to this.

People who claim this was a slam dunk selection that everyone was raving about in 1991 clearly were not watching basketball at the time. It wasn't a huge controversy or anything but it did raise some eye brows for sure.

He was not nearly as established of a player at that time as guys like Dominque or Worthy, no way.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is an entire book on the DT. Worthy and Wilkins are only mentioned in passing...maybe they were big factors in the Jordanstan circle jerk last night but alas they weren't for the DT.


Detached from reality is lecturing people who were actually watching basketball at the time and acting like an authority on it when you clearly weren't probably even born or watching basketball at that time

Maybe you aren't as smart as I thought. We have repeatedly shown sources from the time regarding the construction of the team. Your response is "I, I, I, I.' No one gives a damn what you thought about the DT. You were a kid just like I was then. The question is what did those who selected the team did? That is what the people outside of Jordanstan are discussing.


People who claim this was a slam dunk selection that everyone

He was--for the people actually selecting the team. I know Jordan bots short circuit but it's a simple fact. Sorry. Maybe in another 30 years you can handle it better?


He was not nearly as established of a player at that time as guys like Dominque or Worthy, no way.

Back to "established" mattering--recall just hours ago it suddenly didn't matter when it came to Stockton. Yet another example of MJ stan #badfaith. Within hours they change positions.

[bizil]

AT the time Clyde was chosen for the team (later in the 91'92 season), Clyde was the better player. Clyde was at his peak while Zeke was in his backend prime years. I STILL think Zeke should have been on the team though in general. Hell Clyde AND Zeke both belonged on the team. They should have had 12 NBA players on that squad. I don't get the one college player slot. Zeke was still LEGIT one of the top 12 players in the league though. And from a GOAT status, ONLY MJ, Magic, and Bird were superior to Isiah AT THE TIME that team was chosen

But Drexler was for sure top 10 and the SECOND BEST perimeter player in the world. Once Magic retired and Bird had the back problems, Clyde slid into that spot. If injuries AND personal shit wasn't an issue and no college guys included, this would have been my squad:

PG Magic-Zeke-Stock
SG MJ-Drexler
SF Bird-Nique-Pip
PF- Chuck-Mailman
C- Admiral-Pat

[Duncan21formvp]

To be perfectly honest they probably put Stockton, Mullin and Laettnaer on the team because they were white. They could not have all 12 guys being all black. Let's be real about this. Otherwise Isiah, Drexler, Nique, Shaq are better options.

[Soundwave]

There is an entire book on the DT. Worthy and Wilkins are only mentioned in passing...maybe they were big factors in the Jordanstan circle jerk last night but alas they weren't for the DT.



Maybe you aren't as smart as I thought. We have repeatedly shown sources from the time regarding the construction of the team. Your response is "I, I, I, I.' No one gives a damn what you thought about the DT. You were a kid just like I was then. The question is what did those who selected the team did? That is what the people outside of Jordanstan are discussing.



He was--for the people actually selecting the team. I know Jordan bots short circuit but it's a simple fact. Sorry. Maybe in another 30 years you can handle it better?



Back to "established" mattering--recall just hours ago it suddenly didn't matter when it came to Stockton. Yet another example of MJ stan #badfaith. Within hours they change positions.

Are you a f**king moron?

John Stockon had just won 4 assist titles in a row, a record in the modern era that hasn't been done by anyone else, not even Magic.

And yes, even then, there were people that were sour that Stockton made it over Isiah, so how the f*ck do you they took to Pippen over some other more established players? No there was grumbling about it at the time from some circles, go talk to someone who actually watched basketball at the time, maybe you'll learn something.

Its 30 years on and all you talk about all day is Jordan, so who's obsessed with who again? Maybe in 30 years you'll actually find a player more than a tiny minority believe is better.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans=talking to a wall. The record has been covered numerous times--we have yet to see a single shred of evidence presented from MJ stans/Woah just robots repeating the same nonsense.

Re Stockton, you comically undercut your own point. Stockton was "established" (3 all-star teams) yet Pippen was vastly preferred by the people who assembled the Dream Team (i.e., the best and brightest of the NBA world circa 1991-1992.). What does that say about how those people perceived Pippen? :roll: Let's try to make it easier:

Player A: "established"
Player B preferred over "established" Player A by top experts to build their team.
That means Player B...is...come on. I know you can do this. :cheers:

[Soundwave]

MJ stans=talking to a wall. The record has been covered numerous times--we have yet to see a single shred of evidence presented from MJ stans/Woah just robots repeating the same nonsense.

Re Stockton, you comically undercut your own point. Stockton was "established" (3 all-star teams) yet Pippen was vastly preferred by the people who assembled the Dream Team (i.e., the best and brightest of the NBA world circa 1991-1992.). What does that say about how those people perceived Pippen? :roll:

How about you just shut up about the early 90s. Clearly you were not around then and don't know you are talking about.

It's like having some freaking 14 year old lecture someone on the Beatles who actually grew up when they were together, lol, it's just stupid.

When exactly did you start watching basketball? Please it sure as f*ck wasn't 1991.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yet again: a MJ stan robot. Now this guy isn't dumb; he just pretends to be.

Note these MJ stan jackoffs cannot present a single shred of evidence for their fantasies.

[Soundwave]

Yet again: a MJ stan robot. Now this guy isn't dumb; he just pretends to be.

Note these MJ stan jackoffs cannot present a single shred of evidence for their fantasies.

Yeah from the resident 90s basketball "expert" .... who didn't even watch 90s basketball, lol. Were you even in diapers in 1991? I don't really even give that much of a fart about this because I personally was very happy Pippen was on the team quite frankly as a Bulls fan at the time.

But this thread makes it fairly obvious you were obviously not watching NBA basketball at the time, that's what I find funny.

Do I need "proof" to say "Hasta La Vista, Baby" was a popular catch phrase at that time too?

[Roundball_Rock]

I didn't watch? You just said in another thread BJ Armstrong was let go for "no good reason" which is laughable to anyone who did watch/follow the team back then.

The beauty of having command of the facts is I don't need to quote myself, nor do the others who took my side. We simply produce documented facts from those in the know at the time and later (which doesn't include your 2nd grade playground buddy). These options aren't available to you and your ilk since you apart detached from reality so facts are unavailable.

James Worthy should have been on the DT. Whatever you guys want to circle jerk at tonight. :lol

[Soundwave]

I didn't watch? You just said in another thread BJ Armstrong was let go for "no good reason" which is laughable to anyone who did watch/follow the team back then.

The beauty of having command of the facts is I don't need to quote myself, nor do the others who took my side. We simply produce documented facts from those in the know at the time and later (which doesn't include your 2nd grade playground buddy). These options aren't available to you and your ilk since you apart detached from reality so facts are unavailable.

James Worthy should have been on the DT. Whatever you guys want to circle jerk at tonight. :lol

Why shouldn't James Worthy have been on the team? Do you even know that James Worthy was a pretty accomplished player who was very highly thought of at the time?

Or do I need to "prove" that too?

Just drop the stupid "I'm the 90s Expert" act, it's dumb as shit when its obvious you were not even watching basketball at the time.

BJ Armstrong was taken from the Bulls because of the expansion draft, so what exactly is the point you're even trying to make there? That shows the Bulls were also penalized for expansion. If expansion never happened it would have benefitted the Bulls as much as anyone else. Magic and Bird benefitted from an era were they could have more talent on their teams and not have it poached away in expansion drafts.

Please tell me you at least remember the 1995 Expansion draft, lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why shouldn't James Worthy have been on the team?

Ask the committee and Daly. He was never considered (on a team that selected THREE players at his position :lol ). Why does 90's expert Soundwave, then in elementary school, think they were wrong?

Spoiler alert: Worthy wasn't considered because he wasn't one of the 9-10 best players in the NBA. Shocking! They wanted the best players (plus Bird).


BJ Armstrong was taken from the Bulls because of the expansion draft, so what exactly is the point you're even trying to make there?

They could protect 8 players. As I, and others who watched then knew, they let him go by choice...

[Soundwave]

Ask the committee and Daly. He was never considered (on a team that selected THREE players at his position :lol ). Why does 90's expert Soundwave, then in elementary school, think they were wrong?

Spoiler alert: Worthy wasn't considered because he wasn't one of the 9-10 best players in the NBA. Shocking! :cry:



They could protect 8 players. As I, and others who watched then knew, they let him go by choice.

Neither was Scottie Pippen ... Scottie Pippen wasn't even on the 1991 All-Star team dude, he was not a top 10 player. Daly loved his game for good reason, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about AT THE TIME, he was not established as a top 10 player in the minds of most basketball fans.

There's nothing controversial or "stan-ish" about saying that. You are being f**king ridiculous by acting like that's impossible.

James Worthy was a multiple time All-Star at that point including an All-Star in '91 (not Pippen), multiple time NBA champion, a recent Finals MVP over some guys named Magic and Kareem, multiple 20 ppg seasons, reknown for being a big time clutch player, put up 40 points in the Finals in 89 against the Pistons when Magic went out, and was just coming off a very solid playoffs himself despite injuries.

[Roundball_Rock]

Neither was Scottie Pippen

Pippen was a no brainer/must have/essential player for the people who were involved in building/coaching the team. See, they weren't concerned about dumbass MJ stans 30 years later or your 2nd grade playground pal. They were in it to win.

Worthy was a non-factor in the discussions. Sorry but that is a historical fact. Shed your crocodile tears somewhere. It is obvious you couldn't care less about Worthy himself.


James Worthy was a multiple time All-Star at that point including an All-Star in '91 (not Pippen)

The same Worthy Pippen badly outplayed head-to-head in the NBA finals. What year was that again? :lol


multiple time NBA champion, a recent Finals MVP over some guys named Magic and Kareem, multiple 20 ppg seasons, reknown for being a big time clutch player, put up 40 points in the Finals in 89 against the Pistons

Damn, and the DT wanted Pippen>>>>>>>>over him. They must have thought he was awesome to be preferred over (by your own admission) greats like Worthy, Stockton--yet we hear he was a nobody back then from MJ stans. :oldlol: Meanwhile the U.S. paper of record, a month after DT selections, calls him a "universally recognized superstar."

The funny thing about the Worthy nonsense is he probably was 5th at SF. Pippen, Mullin, Bird were actually selected over him and if they were forced to select a 4th SF it likely would have been Wilkins, not Worthy. Hard to say for sure, though, since both Worthy and Wilkins were never seriously considered for the team.

There is a happy ending: Worthy got his lifetime achievement award. It is called the Hall of Fame.

[Soundwave]

No I couldn't care about Worthy, I wanted Pippen on the team over him and I wanted 0 Pistons, and was happy to see Pippen on the team because it meant that Jordan would more likely to play, no Jordan on the team would've ruined the whole concept.

But if you're going to act like no one cared about James Worthy or he wasn't a very well known popular player with the largest basketball fanbase of the time behind him, you're a f**king liar.

There were lots of people that felt he should have been on the team and the appointing of Pippen wasn't something everyone in the public felt was a no brainer. Not by a long shot. Go talk to anyone who was an actual Lakers or Pistons or Celtics fan from that time.

Like if there was a Dream Team today and a player had a resume of 2017 NBA Finals MVP, 6 time All-Star to that point, 3 time NBA champion, multiple 20 ppg seasons, and All-Star in 2020, coming off an NBA Finals appearance ... and like Pascal Siakim was chosen over that player because of the 2019 NBA playoffs, pretty sure there would be some eye raising at that.

James Worthy was better known as a player to many basketball fans at the time and had a far larger resume. He was coming off an All-Star season himself. The Lakers were at the time the defacto glamour franchise and were in the Finals practically every friggin' year.

Why exactly would you expect a Lakers fan for example to be cool with that.

[Roundball_Rock]

But if you're going to act like no one cared about James Worthy

There were lots of people that felt he should have been on the team

the appointing of Pippen wasn't something everyone in the public felt was a no brainer

Again, the people who built the team didn't seriously consider Worthy. That is a historical fact. Do you need a cookie to digest it better?

As to Pippen, he was the 4th player picked by the committee. Daly considered him the 3rd most "essential" player behind MJ and Magic (Stockton, Worthy, Wilkins, Miller, Isiah, Dumars, Bird, Drexler, even Barkley did not make his "essential 7" list). These also are historical facts. Sorry but it has been 30 years. We can't go into a time machine and convince the committee and Daly how dumb they were because it is inconvenient for one fan base decades later. :lol

The original 10 (so everybody but Drexler, Laetner) were selected in September of 1991. How did that judgement hold up by the end of the 1991-1992 season? 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd team spots were taken by Dream Teamers and that one outlier was at guard, Magic's position. If Magic doesn't retire the committee would have went 10 for 10 if Magic displaced Hardaway (although he likely would have displaced Stockton, who was 12th in MVP to Hardaway's 8th).

That is an amazing track record. 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd teams on the Dream Team with the outliers being a retired player and a player who was injured half the season.

[Soundwave]

Again, the people who built the team didn't seriously considered Worthy. That is a historical fact. Do you need a cookie to digest it better?

As to Pippen, he was the 4th player picked by the committee. Daly considered him the 3rd most "essential" player behind MJ and Magic (Stockton, Worthy, Wilkins, Miller, Isiah, Dumars, Bird, Drexler, even Barkley did not make his "essential" list). These also are historical facts. Sorry but it has been 30 years. We can't go into a time machine and convince the committee and Daly how dumb they were because it is inconvenient for one fan base decades later. :lol

The original 10 (so everybody but Drexler, Laetner) were selected in September of 1991. How did that judgement hold up by the end of the 1991-1992 season? 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd team spots were taken by Dream Teamers and that one outlier was at guard, Magic's position. If Magic doesn't retire the committee would have went 10 for 10 if Magic displaced Hardaway (although he likely would have displaced Stockton, who was 12th in MVP to Hardaway's 8th).

That is an amazing track record. 9 of the 10 all-NBA 1st/2nd teams on the Dream Team with the outliers being a retired player and a player who was injured half the season.

I would have personally picked Pippen over Worthy too, because I was a biased Bulls fan.

All I'm saying is AT THE TIME, that decision was not popular with everyone. Worthy had a stellar resume and was far, far more proven and the Lakers had a larger fan base behind them at the time. They were the defacto NBA dynasty, the Bulls were not, not after just one title.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was a no brainer to the people who built that team. Again, that is a historical fact. Want a time machine to convince Rod Thorn and Jack McCloskey, Chuck Daly, and Mike Krzyzewski they were idiots?

You are confusing popular opinion with expert opinion. Who do you think was on the Olympic selection committee? Here are some names:


So USA Basketball formed a committee and a two-year process to choose the 12 players for the first Dream Team. It was headed by C.M. Newton, the University of Kentucky Athletic Director and an assistant coach on the 1984 Olympic team.

It included NBA executives, such as Rod Thorn and Jack McCloskey, college coaches including Mike Krzyzewski and P.J. Carlesimo (who would become assistants to Chuck Daly in Barcelona) and an NBA Players Association presence (Charles Grantham).

The committee was tasked with reviewing performances from the 1990-91 and 1991-92 NBA seasons.

Note what their charge was. It was to review 91' and 92' performance, not lifetime achievement. It makes sense. The Dream Team would be playing in 1992, not 1988 or 1984.

The only people today who complain about Pippen being on the DT are all basically fans of one player. Mullin, Barkley were actually debated by the committee (Pippen wasn't :lol ). Drexler didn't make the top 10/first round cut (he listed Bird, Magic, Mullin as players who shouldn't have made the team). Stockton was the direct comparison for Isiah. Yet Pippen is the one Jordan fans 30 years later say shouldn't have been on the DT?

The comical thing is MJ stans, like you, will gas Wilkins, Worthy, Stockton, Drexler, etc. especially circa 1991/1992. The best basketball minds in American wanted Pippen over them--and it was an easy choice to them. That says it all. On the one hand, Pippen was a nobody; on the other hand he was easily chosen over these "established" stars. You can't have it both ways in the real world, although you can in Jordanstan.

[Roundball_Rock]

The other amusing thing is actual performance on the Dream Team. What did the MJ stan favorites do on the Dream Team? Chuck Daly said if he had MJ and Pippen on the court it didn't even matter who the other 3 were (around page 252-254 of the book, around the Kukoc part). :roll:


I remember talking to the late Chuck Daly after that 1992 Dream Team and Daly raving about Pippen. Daly said he knew Pippen was a potential MVP candidate type player, but said Pippen was the best player on the 1992 team. “I know Michael’s the best player, but Pippen was the best player on that team,” admired Daly.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_100812.html


"Michael returned from the games raving about Scottie's performance. Before the summer, Michael had regarded Pippen as the most talented member of his supporting cast. But after watching him outplay Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler and other future Hall of Famers in Barcelona, Michael realized that Scottie was the best all-around player on what many consider the best basketball team ever assembled. Scottie, Michael had to admit, had even outshone him in several of the games."--Phil Jackson

That is the guy who shouldn't have been on the team according to MJ stans! :lol (MVP type player? Worthy never was.)

You yourself were saying hours ago Worthy was washed up by 92' (false--a year off, but your previous position when making excuses for the Lakers sucking without Magic).

[Soundwave]

The other amusing thing is actual performance on the Dream Team. What did the MJ stan favorites do on the Dream Team? Chuck Daly said if he had MJ and Pippen on the court it didn't even matter who the other 3 were (around page 252-254 of the book, around the Kukoc part). :roll:



https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_100812.html



That is the guy who shouldn't have been on the team according to MJ stans! :lol (MVP type player? Worthy never was.)

You yourself were saying hours ago Worthy was washed up by 92' (false--a year off, but your previous position when making excuses for the Lakers sucking without Magic).

Worthy was at the tail end of his career by 92 due to wear and tear. The 80s were a vicious decade. That doesn't change that by summer 91 he was still considered a top end player. Worthy was not the only guy to rapidly decline like that. I don't know what you want to argue there. No one in September 1991 could've known all that would happen.

Are you saying James Worthy wasn't a terrific player? Did he or did he not win the Finals MVP in 1988?

Are you saying Magic Johnson didn't have a loaded team in the 80s? Jordan is somehow the only player in history to have a second option as good as Pippen? And that proves he's a "fraud" some how?

What exactly is your point?

[Roundball_Rock]

That doesn't change that by summer 91 he was still considered a top end player.

Yet he wasn't considered for the Dream Team. His lifetime achievement award is called HOF induction. Pippen was a "no brainer", "essential", "must have" player. The reporting varies. Daly listed 7 players (Pippen 3rd behind MJ, Magic). Bill Simmons reported 5 (one was an old Bird--so the 3 lions plus Robinson and Pippen) as the "no brainers." The New York Times reporting at the time had Pippen as the 4th selection, although didn't specify what the number of "no brainer" players was but logic tells us the 4th guy was a lock (especially when the first two were MJ and Magic). "Lock" was how the selection committee viewed Pippen per the DT book author who covered the team for SI.

As a comparison Worthy...was not considered at all for the team in any meaningful way.

Again, these are historical facts. Worthy was great but Pippen was considered better by the best basketball minds circa September of 1991. You and your ilk can't have it both ways: Worthy was great; Pippen a nobody yet all the experts had Pippen above him and many others. If Pippen indeed was a bum/nobody/etc., that means MJ played in a terrible era where a guy like that was essential for the Dream Team. Pippen simply was the better player circa the fall of 1991. None of the experts involved with the DT discussed this. They weren't morons. When you are building a team you get the core out the way and spend your time debating the questionable/secondary players.

The most notable thing is Pippen was not even debated by the committee. Mullin was. Barkley was. Drexler didn't even make the original cut. Etc.

Pippen was the 1st SF selected but in Jordanstan Worthy and Wilkins should have been selected over him (comically, no mention is made about Mullin who actually was debated by the committee or a on his last legs Bird).

So a player is considered the 3rd or 4th most important player for the team and then considered the best or second best player on the actual team--yet (MJ) fans 30 years later are saying he should not have been on the team. What does it say?

[Soundwave]

Yet he wasn't considered for the Dream Team. His lifetime achievement award is called HOF induction. Pippen was a "no brainer", "essential", "must have" player. The reporting varies. Daly listed 7 players (Pippen 3rd behind MJ, Magic). Bill Simmons reported 5 (one was an old Bird--so the 3 lions plus Robinson and Pippen) as the "no brainers." The New York Times reporting at the time had Pippen as the 4th selection, although didn't specify what the number of "no brainer" players was but logic tells us the 4th guy was a lock (especially when the first two were MJ and Magic).

As a comparison Worthy...was not considered at all for the team in any meaningful way.

Again, these are historical facts. Worthy was great but Pippen was considered better by the best basketball minds circa September of 1991. You can't have it both ways: Worthy was great; Pippen a nobody yet all the experts had Pippen above him and many others.

The most notable thing is Pippen was not even debated by the committee. Mullin was. Barkley was. Drexler didn't even make the original cut. Etc.

Pippen was the 1st SF selected but in Jordanstan Worthy and Wilkins should have been selected over him (comically, no mention is made about Mullin who actually was debated by the committee or a on his last legs Bird).

So a player is considered the 3rd or 4th most important player for the team and then considered the best or second best player on the actual team--yet (MJ) fans 30 years later are saying he should not have been on the team. What does it say?

If Pippen was well known by basketball fans as a top end player please explain how the fans did not vote him an All-Star in 1991? How often does the 3rd best player not even make the All-Star team?

Did the majority of the fans magically develop amnesia?

Yes he would eventually become one of the most popular/well known players, but in spring of 1991 he had basically 1 good playoff run on his resume and that's about it. Worthy won the most recent Finals MVP for the Lakers and was probably the best Laker player in the 89 Finals as well. Kareem was the Lakers third best player by then.

Shit in September 1991 people didn't even know Magic Johnson had HIV, a lot of people felt the Lakers would be right back in the Finals.

Also Magic didn't just "leave" the Lakers, people felt HIV was a literal death sentence, that was a far bigger psychological shock, I remember being sat down by a teacher and being told Magic would probably be dead within a few years, this was something extremely serious. That was the common view on HIV at that time.

It's one thing to have a beloved player retire, it's quite something else to have to digest he's probably going to be dead.

[Roundball_Rock]

These are historical facts about the DT selection/construction. 30 years. Get over it.

So a player is considered the 3rd or 4th most important player for the team and then considered the best or second best player on the actual team--yet (MJ) fans 30 years later are saying he should not have been on the team. What does it say? It tells me this is the most pathetic fan base out there. :lol

[Soundwave]

These are historical facts about the DT selection/construction. 30 years. Get over it.

So a player is considered the 3rd or 4th most important player for the team and then considered the best or second best player on the actual team--yet (MJ) fans 30 years later are saying he should not have been on the team. What does it say? It tells me this is the most pathetic fan base out there. :lol

No, being angry at people who say Jordan is GOAT when that is the consensus GOAT even on this board (lol) and spamming a board about Jordan 24/7 trying to claim it's some ESPN "conspiracy" I would say is sad.

I've never said Pippen wasn't a good pick for the '92 Dream Team, I was happy to see him on there. Not a freaking chance he was the third best actual basketball player on that team though, I would take David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and others ahead of him no sweat. That's not being "mean" to Pippen, most people would acknowledge that.

I am saying it was not a popular choice with everyone in the basketball world. Scottie Pippen did not have much of a track record, you are acting like people in 1991 had some crystal ball and could forsee events happening in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 ... that's not how reality works.

A top 3 player in the sport doesn't get passed over for an All-Star team spot, obviously lots of people at the time did not view Pippen as a top player just yet. He was not put on even as a reserve that season by the coaches.

People weren't even sure the Bulls would be a dynasty at that point.

[Whoah10115]

From reading Roundball_Rock's posts in other people's responses, he's clearly failing -again- to understand that no one is arguing that he was a major pick, and that no one is arguing he ended up worthy, especially in retrospect. He's stuck on the fact that people are saying it was a surprise at the time, and that many disagreed.

It's like people arguing Trump winning was a shock, and that he sucks, and Mr. Rock comes in and says "He won, that's an established fact. How delusional are Jordan stans?".

[aceman]

Why shouldn't James Worthy have been on the team? Do you even know that James Worthy was a pretty accomplished player who was very highly thought of at the time?

Or do I need to "prove" that too?

Just drop the stupid "I'm the 90s Expert" act, it's dumb as shit when its obvious you were not even watching basketball at the time.

BJ Armstrong was taken from the Bulls because of the expansion draft, so what exactly is the point you're even trying to make there? That shows the Bulls were also penalized for expansion. If expansion never happened it would have benefitted the Bulls as much as anyone else. Magic and Bird benefitted from an era were they could have more talent on their teams and not have it poached away in expansion drafts.

Please tell me you at least remember the 1995 Expansion draft, lol.

Ha - bulls wanted to free up space so let BJ go.
Come on you need to increase your knowledge

[aceman]

No, being angry at people who say Jordan is GOAT when that is the consensus GOAT even on this board (lol) and spamming a board about Jordan 24/7 trying to claim it's some ESPN "conspiracy" I would say is sad.

I've never said Pippen wasn't a good pick for the '92 Dream Team, I was happy to see him on there. Not a freaking chance he was the third best actual basketball player on that team though, I would take David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and others ahead of him no sweat. That's not being "mean" to Pippen, most people would acknowledge that.

I am saying it was not a popular choice with everyone in the basketball world. Scottie Pippen did not have much of a track record, you are acting like people in 1991 had some crystal ball and could forsee events happening in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 ... that's not how reality works.

A top 3 player in the sport doesn't get passed over for an All-Star team spot, obviously lots of people at the time did not view Pippen as a top player just yet. He was not put on even as a reserve that season by the coaches.

People weren't even sure the Bulls would be a dynasty at that point.

Chuck Daly said Pippen was best player on team

[light]

Neither was Scottie Pippen ... Scottie Pippen wasn't even on the 1991 All-Star team dude, he was not a top 10 player. Daly loved his game for good reason, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about AT THE TIME, he was not established as a top 10 player in the minds of most basketball fans.

There's nothing controversial or "stan-ish" about saying that. You are being f**king ridiculous by acting like that's impossible.

James Worthy was a multiple time All-Star at that point including an All-Star in '91 (not Pippen), multiple time NBA champion, a recent Finals MVP over some guys named Magic and Kareem, multiple 20 ppg seasons, reknown for being a big time clutch player, put up 40 points in the Finals in 89 against the Pistons when Magic went out, and was just coming off a very solid playoffs himself despite injuries.

By the summer of 1991 Pippen was indeed considered a top 10 player in the league by many.

Everything changed for him during the run to the 1991 championship. After that he was bona fide super star. No more All-Star snubs (Pippen was a top 10 vote getter in the East for the 1991 All-Star game).

The Olympic selection didn’t happen until months after the 1991 Finals.

What separated Pippen from guys like Worthy or Drexler was that he was a lock down doberman defender while still capable of doing this:

Game 5 1991 NBA Finals

Pippen: 32/14/7
Jordan: 30/4/10

So by the time of the Dream Team selection in September of 1991 Pippen couldn’t be ignored because there was no other perimeter player in the league like him other than Michael Jordan.

[Soundwave]

Ha - bulls wanted to free up space so let BJ go.
Come on you need to increase your knowledge

Free up space for what? Both Jordan and Pippen were on ridiculous value deals, Jordan was the freaking 32nd highest paid player in the league that year, lol, Pippen even lower, Rodman 99th highest paid. The Bulls did not have a cap issue that year.

[aceman]

From reading Roundball_Rock's posts in other people's responses, he's clearly failing -again- to understand that no one is arguing that he was a major pick, and that no one is arguing he ended up worthy, especially in retrospect. He's stuck on the fact that people are saying it was a surprise at the time, and that many disagreed.

It's like people arguing Trump winning was a shock, and that he sucks, and Mr. Rock comes in and says "He won, that's an established fact. How delusional are Jordan stans?".

That is not true - Pippen's place was never questioned. This is only a recent phenomenon as Jordan legend grew. All the evidence here shows Pippen was among first selected & therefore was highly regarded by executives & coaches at time. There was no public outrage

[Roundball_Rock]

Not a freaking chance he was the third best actual basketball player on that team though, I would take David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and others ahead of him no sweat.

And your role on the team was...? Let's rewind the tape on the coach of the team:

Early in the selection process Chuck Daly had a wish list of players that he thought were "most essential for success."

In order, they were, "Jordan, Magic, Pippen, Robinson, Mullin, Malone and Ewing."

So the actual coach had Pippen 3rd on his list and rated him the best player on the team when it played.


I am saying it was not a popular choice with everyone in the basketball world

It was an undisputed, automatic, no brainer, lock to the people who actually were involved in selecting the team. Why is this impossible for you to process?


people in 1991 had some crystal ball and could forsee events happening in 1992

That literally was the charge of the team selection committee: take what players did in 91' and 92' and forecast it for the summer of 92'. :facepalm


He was not put on even as a reserve that season by the coaches.

An inconvenient truth: the DT selection was done after the 91' season, which included half a season and 20 or so playoff games in Pippen's case.


By the summer of 1991 Pippen was indeed considered a top 10 player in the league by many.

Everything changed for him during the run to the 1991 championship. After that he was bona fide super star. No more All-Star snubs (Pippen was a top 10 vote getter in the East for the 1991 All-Star game).

It is pretty obvious but this unhinged fan base denies reality. Think of how dumb this is: Pippen sucked but the DT people wanted him over all these other guys who were awesome. That makes 0 sense. :lol


in September of 1991 Pippen couldn’t be ignored because there was no other perimeter player in the league like him other than Michael Jordan.

He wasn't even worth debating by the selection committee. He was that obvious, just like Robinson or Ewing were. The people they actually debated were people like Mullin, Barkley. Drexler didn't make the top 10.

A prime example of the bad faith of MJ stans is not a single word about Mullin. If they wanted Worthy so badly or Nique, Mullin or Bird would be the SF that would have to go and realistically Bird wouldn't. Yet they want the 4th overall pick/1st SF to be the one to go. :lol

[Soundwave]

That is not true - Pippen's place was never questioned. This is only a recent phenomenon as Jordan legend grew. All the evidence here shows Pippen was among first selected & therefore was highly regarded by executives & coaches at time. There was no public outrage

"Outrage" is a big word, there were people that had quibbles with Pippen on that list, he had a very limited track record at that point relative to several other players.

Fans and coaches did not even vote him in as an All-Star starter or reserve that season, so yes, lots of people didn't view him as a top end player just yet.

The Lakers had at the time the biggest fan base, Pippen over Worthy was not a popular choice with a lot of them and really explain to me why it would be. Worthy had several great playoff runs under his belt at that point, not just one, he was injured in the '91 Finals but still put up respectable numbers.

What about any of that is so f**king controversial. Pippen was not viewed as a defacto star player at the time by a lot of people. He was 32nd in the league in scoring. His star would develop in the next couple of years but by fall of 1991 some people were still questioning the Bulls being a dynasty at all ("yeah so what if Jordan won once, lets see if can do it again and again like Magic and Larry"). That shit is easy to say in hindsight, but that's not how it was at the time.

It was a bit like Shaq being voted in to the Top 50 Players of All Time in 1996. Some people didn't agree with it.

[Roundball_Rock]

That is not true - Pippen's place was never questioned. This is only a recent phenomenon as Jordan legend grew. All the evidence here shows Pippen was among first selected & therefore was highly regarded by executives & coaches at time. There was no public outrage

Exactly. How many times do we have to post the receipts from the team construction? It shows how dishonest these posters are. The facts have been spoon fed to them again and again and they keep lying.


Free up space for what?

BJ was unhappy with his role once MJ returned and the Bulls' didn't like his defense or his value relative to his salary...

[Roundball_Rock]

NO ONE INVOLVED IN BUILDING THE DREAM TEAM THOUGHT PIPPEN WAS ANYTHING BUT AN AUTOMATIC CHOICE.

How hard is it to digest?

There was a COMMITTEE to select the team. No one bothered to dispute Pippen. Why? For the same reason they didn't debate Robinson or Ewing. Mullin was the SF that was disputed...

[Soundwave]

NO ONE INVOLVED IN BUILDING THE DREAM TEAM THOUGHT PIPPEN WAS ANYTHING BUT AN AUTOMATIC CHOICE.

How hard is it to digest?

There was a COMMITTEE to select the team. No one bothered to dispute Pippen. Why? For the same reason they didn't debate Robinson or Ewing. Mullin was the SF that was disputed...

There is another reason for it (or perception thereof), but I don't think you're going to want to hear it.

He was not thought of an unanimous superstar type of player in 1991, he did have a good playoffs as a no.2 option, but one of those doesn't elevate you suddenly into one of the best players in the world, which is what the Dream Team was supposedly billed as.

The Dream Team was a marketing tool more than a basketball team, there was never any serious doubt they would win gold, selections were political as such.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is another reason for it (or perception thereof), but I don't think you're going to want to hear it.

It isn't "perception." It is reporting. ALL the available reporting on the team, including the book on the team, says the same. The only dispute is what the size of the core was. Daly had 7 guys, Simmons reported 5. Either way, Pippen was in the core and high on the core list.

We have yet to see one piece of evidence about the DT selection committee or coaching staff debating Pippen's place on the team. Why? It doesn't exist.

[3ball]

They didn't dispute Pippen because jordan was the first guy they asked to play, and jordan had Pip's back like he always did.. pip was a shoe-in after they talked to jordan.. story of Pip's career

And the bulls winning also made Pippen look good.. no one remembers how he was outplayed in the 2nd round by a journeyman, and his horrific play caused the series to go 7 games.. winning made him look better than he was... MJ and the triangle elevated him

[Round Mound]

Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's but he wasn't the best player on the dream team: that was easily Charles Barkley. And Chuck Daily said to Barkley himself he tought he was the 2nd best player in the game after MJ.

[Soundwave]

The Olympic commitee/Stern/NBC/McDonalds was going to do everything in their power to get Jordan on the team. The DT would have been a disaster if Jordan wasn't on it, he was the crown jewel of the whole thing, without him the concept would not be anywhere near as appealing.

It would be like getting the Jacksons with no Michael Jackson or something.

Whether it was true or not, lots of jilted non-Bulls fans felt Pippen's selection was there (along with Isiah's snub) to appease Michael Jordan. If Jordan wanted a Laettner off because of a grudge against UNC rival Duke the thinking was probably the powers that be would have no problem doing it.

Jordan was the star of the Olympics, he needed to be there even if he really didn't feel like going and so they were going to do everything and anything they could to accomodate him.

You don't go from being not even voted in as an All-Star reserve to top 7 player in the world in 6 months, no one does that without it looking suspicious.

The no.1 point of the DT was to sell the NBA to a global audience, no one gave that much of a shit about winning gold because that was a given, the marketing aspect of it was paramount. They would have done anything to get Jordan on that team. They needed Michael, Magic, and Larry. If the rest of the team was college kids they'd rather have that than a team with no Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is selection such a mystery box? We know who the first picks were for, say, Abe Lincoln's cabinet. We know there was opposition to Samuel Chase for Treasury. Yet we can't figure out who the DT selections went? :lol It is revealing that the only people pulling this wool over people are all MJ stans plus one other weirdo.


nd Chuck Daily said to Barkley himself he tought he was the 2nd best player in the game after MJ.

That could be in the NBA context. It also could have been in a different time (93' or 91'?). His comment to Sam Smith was Pippen was the best player on the DT. The way Jack McMallum reported it was Daly thought Jordan, Pippen, Barkley were his three most important but Pippen, Jordan the two most important (the author does not specify who #1 was). Daly's other quote was when he had Pip and MJ out there the other three players didn't matter. Yet we are hearing Pip shouldn't have even been on the team. :roll:


The Olympic commitee/Stern/NBC/McDonalds was going to do everything in their power to get Jordan on the team

Nice conspiracy theory (this is what it has come down to? :lol ) but MJ had already signed on to the team by the time selections were made. That is why he was the 1st pick. :oldlol: So you have went on and on and have no clue about the subject matter. It explains a lot.


Whether it was true or not, lots of jilted non-Bulls fans felt Pippen's selection was there (along with Isiah's snub) to appease Michael Jordan.

Who gives a damn what fans like you thought? We have reporting regarding the people who were actually involved, both at the time and 20+ years later about how it went down.

[Roundball_Rock]

Too much deception here; more detail on the DT here for good faith posters interested in history. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480988-Dream-Team-Selection-Construction-amp-Nuggets-from-the-Dream-Team-book-(Jack-McCallum)

[Soundwave]

Why is selection such a mystery box? We know who the first picks were for, say, Abe Lincoln's cabinet. We know there was opposition to Samuel Chase for Treasury. Yet we can't figure out who the DT selections went? :lol It is revealing that the only people pulling this wool over people are all MJ stans plus one other weirdo.



That could be in the NBA context. It also could have been in a different time (93' or 91'?). His comment to Sam Smith was Pippen was the best player on the DT. The way Jack McMallum reported it was Daly thought Jordan, Pippen, Barkley were his three most important but Pippen, Jordan the two most important (the author does not specify who #1 was). Daly's other quote was when he had Pip and MJ out there the other three players didn't matter. Yet we are hearing Pip shouldn't have even been on the team. :roll:



Nice conspiracy theory (this is what it has come down to? :lol ) but MJ had already signed on to the team by the time selections were made. That is why he was the 1st pick. :oldlol: So you have went on and on and have no clue about the subject matter. It explains a lot.



Who gives a damn what fans like you thought? We have reporting from people who were actually involved, both at the time and 20+ years later about how it went down.

Does the book say why Isiah Thomas was not on the team? There were obviously politics involved, that's been the perception for decades now. Jordan was given assurances that the team would one he would be happy with. That is what a lot of people think.

I wanted Pippen on the team for the 5th time, numb nuts, there were a lot of people that didn't feel the same way.

This is a guy who was passed over for the likes of Hershey Hawkins on the All-Star team just 6-7 months earlier and suddenly he's one of first 7 players selected for the Dream Team? That's one hell of a stock jump in a short amount of time, don't think any player has risen that fast. Some people were grumbling about it.

[3ball]

Too much deception here; more detail on the DT here for good faith posters interested in history. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480988-Dream-Team-Selection-Construction-amp-Nuggets-from-the-Dream-Team-book-(Jack-McCallum)

MJ was the first guy asked to be on the team, so of course Pippen was guaranteed a spot

Especially since the bulls just won the title.. the winning always inflated Pippen's inferior production and stats

I notice you only post Pippen's inferior regular season stats.. :oldlol:... You don't dare post his playoff stats, the worst ever for a so-called star

[aceman]

Free up space for what? Both Jordan and Pippen were on ridiculous value deals, Jordan was the freaking 32nd highest paid player in the league that year, lol, Pippen even lower, Rodman 99th highest paid. The Bulls did not have a cap issue that year.

1996 bulls were built to beat their main rival in the east; Orlando.
Jackson decided Harper would start to counter the magic's large guards. BJ would be relegated to the bench as spot up shooter a role Steve Kerr could play for a lot less money.
Bulls decided to let BJ go in expansion draft to free up cap space for power forward the real weakness of team - by luck Rodman fell into their lap.
If you don't know this you shouldn't be commenting here.

[Round Mound]

Why is selection such a mystery box? We know who the first picks were for, say, Abe Lincoln's cabinet. We know there was opposition to Samuel Chase for Treasury. Yet we can't figure out who the DT selections went? :lol It is revealing that the only people pulling this wool over people are all MJ stans plus one other weirdo.



That could be in the NBA context. It also could have been in a different time (93' or 91'?). His comment to Sam Smith was Pippen was the best player on the DT. The way Jack McMallum reported it was Daly thought Jordan, Pippen, Barkley were his three most important but Pippen, Jordan the two most important (the author does not specify who #1 was). Daly's other quote was when he had Pip and MJ out there the other three players didn't matter. Yet we are hearing Pip shouldn't have even been on the team. :roll:



Nice conspiracy theory (this is what it has come down to? :lol ) but MJ had already signed on to the team by the time selections were made. That is why he was the 1st pick. :oldlol: So you have went on and on and have no clue about the subject matter. It explains a lot.



Who gives a damn what fans like you thought? We have reporting regarding the people who were actually involved, both at the time and 20+ years later about how it went down.

It was in 1992 during the Olympics when Chuck Daily told Charles he believed he was the 2nd best player in the game.Charles said "Who's better than me?" Daily said "Michael Jordan" Charles responded "Hes got alot of help" etc

The next year in 93 Charles took the Suns to 62 wins with KJ only playing 49 games and Charles won MVP. In all honesty i thought Hakeem deserved it more that season but in 89-90 Charles was the MVP over Magic. It was really a robbery!

[Roundball_Rock]

The MJ stan tactic is to throw a flurry of BS out there knowing it is difficult to respond to every deception. Let's hone in on one piece: perception of Pippen around when the DT was selected.


NBA Season Preview: Pippen's Stunning Leap Into Jordan's League

Pippen then set out on what would become his most spectacular rise. If Michael Jordan with the ball in midflight is beyond description, then Pippen's occupation of neighboring air space is beyond N.B.A. logic. Here is a midsize player who has elevated himself from complete unknown to universally recognized superstar and has done so in the shadow of the most devastating midsize talent the sport has ever produced.

"He's one of the stars of this league now," Jordan said. "He should be treated accordingly."

A person familiar with the United States Olympic selections, while requesting anonymity, said that Pippen was the fourth player chosen, behind Jordan, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. Pippen interpreted his selection to mean he had "arrived, basically speaking." Bulls Coach Phil Jackson speaks more expansively. "The reason we were able to win the championship last year was the development of Scottie Pippen," he said.

So this was weeks after the DT was selected--and before a second of the 92' season was played. You have the U.S. paper of record referring to him as a "universally recognized superstar". That speaks for itself. There is no qualifier. "Some people consider..." "Many people...". The phrasing was "universally recognized superstar".

So what changed? He wasn't an all-star selection 8 months prior. The answer was his great postseason run and how play in the second half of the season (so another 60 games or so; all-star teams are based on the first 35-40 games ). It is disingenuous to just gloss over this turning point. From that point on he was considered a superstar for the rest of his prime.

Also note they mention he was the fourth player selected for the DT. There is no qualifier about it being shocking, etc. It is mentioned matter of factly, the same way as Ewing and Robinson are.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.htm

We haven't seen any "Pippen shocker" reporting. The reason for it is obvious: if a reporter for a major paper or wire service personally was surprised they would contact their sources and get the reason for the selection and the grounds were clear.

In February--so 5 months after the DT was selected--you have Sports Illustrated comparing him to Jordan and Bill Walton in the article saying Pippen may be the second best player in the NBA (the other candidate Walton names is Malone). So he was an unknown scrub in September but suddenly being called the second best player 4-5 months later (the article came out in February, could have been written earlier? https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight

[Soundwave]

The MJ stan tactic is to throw a flurry of BS out there knowing it is difficult to respond to every deception. Let's hone in on one piece: perception of Pippen around when the DT was selected.



So this was weeks after the DT was selected--and before a second of the 92' season was played. You have the U.S. paper of record referring to him as a "universally recognized superstar". That speaks for itself. Also note they mention he was the fourth player selected for the DT. There is no qualifier about it being shocking, etc. It is mentioned matter of factly, the same way as Ewing and Robinson are.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.htm

We haven't seen any "Pippen shocker" reporting. The reason for it is obvious: if a reporter for a major paper or wire service personally was surprised they would contact their sources and get the reason for the selection and the grounds were clear.

In February--so 5 months after the DT was selected--you have Sports Illustrated comparing him to Jordan and Bill Walton in the article saying Pippen may be the second best player in the NBA (the other candidate Walton names is Malone). So he was an unknown scrub in September but suddenly being called the second best player 4-5 months later (the article came out in February, could have been written earlier? https://vault.si.com/vault/1992/02/24/out-of-the-shadow-after-years-of-being-eclipsed-by-his-teammate-michael-jordan-the-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-stepped-into-the-limelight

Please list the seasons in which Scottie Pippen was a top 3 player in the NBA. If he's so great there should be a few.

[Roundball_Rock]

Perception of Others

The perception stuff is bad faith from MJ stans because we don't see it applied to any other players on the DT. GM's/coaches voted 15-7 for Kevin Johnson over Stockton. Not one word about how KJ should have been on the DT over Stockton. How about Mark Price? Or the PG mentioned in the OP: Isiah.

Drexler didn't even make the first 10 selections. Any comments on why? Worthy, Wilkins were not even considered but we are hearing they deserved to be on the team. Why no thought on why they were not seriously considered if they were so awesome? Drexler was the other player mentioned in the OP; MJ stans went on and on about Pippen. Nothing on Drexler or Zeke.

We could go down the line. Mullin's presence was debated by the committee. Anything on why?

This isn't an honest discussion of who should or shouldn't have been on the DT; it is MJ stans doing what they always do to diminish Pippen.


It was in 1992 during the Olympics when Chuck Daily told Charles he believed he was the 2nd best player in the game.

Both statements could be true. He could have thought Barkley was the better NBA player but Pippen the better DT player. Or he could have changed his mind--the statement to Smith was after the DT. Moreover, what he said to a player's face is going to be more likely to be biased then what he says privately to at least third parties.

Any way you slice it, Pippen and Barkley along with MJ were the stars of the DT, as Daly and others attested to. It wasn't Stockton, Ewing, Malone, Robinson, or Drexler--all MJ stan darlings. So why are we going on and on about how Pippen shouldn't have been on the DT when he outshone these guys?

[Roundball_Rock]

Another thing to factor in: all the reporting on Pippen notes that one of the things the DT valued is his versatility. What these MJ stans aren't telling you is Pippen wound up playing PG on the Dream Team. Why does that matter? If Pippen isn't there (and we are told Worthy or Wilkins should have taken the spot--jumping over Mullin to take Pippen's) the DT would be in big trouble. Their PG's would be a retired Magic and a banged up Stockton. Per the author of the DT book, the only "jaw-dropping" DT stat was Pippen's assist total.

[Whoah10115]

That is not true - Pippen's place was never questioned. This is only a recent phenomenon as Jordan legend grew. All the evidence here shows Pippen was among first selected & therefore was highly regarded by executives & coaches at time. There was no public outrage

So you also have issues with reading comprehension? It was a surprise to a lot of people, but obviously not the guy who chose him. A good number of people disagreed, but obviously not the guy who chose him.

Pippen himself said he was surprised.