Pippen at his peak averaged 22 points on 40% shooting against the Knicks in the ECSF

[BigShotBob]

He never scored over 25 points as the number one option for the entire 7 game series.

Is that "top 10 of the 90's" material?

Discuss.

[Roundball_Rock]

After getting called out by KBlaze, 3ball is shifting to his other account for the same BS. *:lol

[3ball]

And 3 teammates had higher ws/48 in those playoffs (Grant/Kukoc/BJ)

Got outplayed by Ewing, which wasn't at all surprising to anyone at the time

Pippen was outplayed by X-man in 92', and Dumars and Nance before that.. heck Johnny Newman killed Pippen

And let's not forget 95', when his 19 on 40% doomed the bulls vs Magic

If Pippen was truly a star, he would be held accountable when he wet the bed.. we blame lebron's teammates when lebron loses, so why not blame Pippen when the bulls lose? His poor play is the only reason that series were close or lost

[Turbo Slayer]

But Pippen and the Bulls were facing the #1 ranked defense (my Knicks) during that time.

[BigShotBob]

And 3 teammates had higher ws/48 in those playoffs (Grant/Kukoc/BJ)

Got outplayed by Ewing, which wasn't at all surprising to anyone at the time

Pippen was outplayed by X-man in 92', and Dumars and Nance before that.. heck Johnny Newman killed Pippen

And let's not forget 95', when his 19 on 40% doomed the bulls vs Magic

If Pippen was truly a star, he would be held accountable when he wet the bed.. we blame lebron's teammates when lebron loses, so why not blame Pippen when the bulls lose? His poor play is the only reason that series were close or lost

Pippen is held to a much lower standard. It's an accomplishment for him to get to the 2nd round and lose in 7 while averaging 22 points on 40% shooting. That's "all-world" to the trolls here, but that just proves he can't get it done without MJ protecting him. MJ WAS the difference. Period.

[Roundball_Rock]

But Pippen and the Bulls were facing the #1 ranked defense (my Knicks) during that time.

Yeah, the best Knicks' defense of any of those 90's teams too. Jordan shot worse against a lesser version of the same defense the previous year (40% in 93' versus 41% for Pippen in 94'; Pippen shot 51% in 93')--so I guess MJ<Pippen then, right?

They also dishonestly are posting false numbers repeatedly here, like they always do. For example, 23 PPG on 43% becomes 22 PPG on 40%.

Kukoc puts up 9/3/3 on 40% in the same series and they praise him.

Also notice no OP about what Robinson did in the playoffs at his peak the same year or Ewing in the finals? Much worse than Pippen against the #1 defense...Using their own logic here, since Pippen sucks for his playoff performance in 94', MJ's weak era consisted of much worse players being considered superstars.

A pathetic bunch. :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

Yeah, the best Knicks' defense too. Jordan shot worse against a lesser version of the same defense the previous year--so I guess MJ<Pippen then, right?

They also dishonestly are posting false numbers repeatedly here, like they always do. :applause:

MJ stans always try to downplay Pippen like he is some bum. He's clearly not a bum. I would say that Pippen is a top 5 player in the 1990s.

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause:

MJ stans always try to downplay Pippen like he is some bum. He's clearly not a bum. I would say that Pippen is a top 5 player in the 1990s.

What is causing them to snap is the realization that everybody except the MJ stan echo chamber considers Pippen a great player, the consensus is he is top 20-30 all-time. He was considered great when he played, right after he retired, and still is today. All the MJ stan fantasies won't change that.

One of the funny things to me is using their own logic, MJ's competition was trash if we apply their standards for Pippen to other superstars. Notice, though, you never see any comparisons of Pippen to others from them? It is always "Pippen sucks". It is the pro-Pippen side that will bring the comparative data to let people reach their own conclusions because we have (accurate) facts on our side.

[BigShotBob]

What is causing them to snap is the realization that everybody except the MJ stan echo chamber considers Pippen a great player, the consensus is he is top 20-30 all-time. He was considered great when he played, right after he retired, and still is today. All the MJ stan fantasies won't change that.

One of the funny things to me is using their own logic, MJ's competition was trash if we apply their standards for Pippen to other superstars. Notice, though, you never see any comparisons of Pippen to others from them? It is always "Pippen sucks". It is the pro-Pippen side that will bring the comparative data to let people reach their own conclusions because we have (accurate) facts on our side.

Pippen didn't average 23 on 43%. In fact I actually rounded UP.

He really averaged 21.7 ppg on 41% shooting......

Again, Wade would never do that. And in the entire 7 games series he never scored over 25 points. For the entire series.

It's over. Pippen peaked at most 90's stars's absolute worst.

[Roundball_Rock]

He averaged 22.8 on 43.4% in the playoffs. 25/10/4/3 on 49% when he wasn't facing the #1 defense. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_playoffs_per_game

Even for ECSF number, by your own admission, is false since you rounded down. Which is revealing since no one outside of you and few others ever do that.


Again, Wade would never do that.

Except when he did. Anyway, Wade played in a softer defensive era.

Robinson scored 20 PPG on 41% (as a center) in the same playoffs at his peak; Ewing 19 PPG on 36% (as a center) in the finals the same year. Using your own logic, MJ's era was incredibly weak when a scrub like Pippen and even worse players (using your own standard) were all considered superstars in that era.

[LAmbruh]

Damn, Roundball cooking OP

[BigShotBob]

He averaged 22.8 on 43.4% in the playoffs. 25/10/4/3 on 49% when he wasn't facing the #1 defense. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_playoffs_per_game

Even for ECSF number, by your own admission, is false since you rounded down. Which is revealing since no one outside of you and few others ever do that.



Except when he did. Anyway, Wade played in a softer defensive era.

Robinson scored 20 PPG on 41% (as a center) in the same playoffs at his peak; Ewing 19 PPG on 36% (as a center) in the finals the same year. Using your own logic, MJ's era was incredibly weak when a scrub like Pippen and even worse players (using your own standard) were all considered superstars in that era.

Nope. Pippen averaged 21.7 on 41% shooting.

David Robinson was bottle necked by the Jazz that year, but that doesn't excuse Pippen's performance in the slightest.

Meanwhile Hakeem went crazy, Rod Strickland performed better than Pippen did against the Rockets, and so did Chris Mulin (25 on 50%), Kevin Johnson (25/9 on 48%), Reggie Miller (averaged 29.9, almost 30 against Orlando) and Charles Barkley to name a few.

Sorry, but it's only a select few that shrinks as things get tougher, and it's Pippen in that bunch.

Pippen can't even shoot 3's well to begin with OR free throws so......that's doing him a favor.

By the way, Rod Strickland literally outperformed Clyde Drexler, his superstar teammate, in that series. Pippen can't raise his game when it matters the most.

[Turbo Slayer]

Pippen didn't average 23 on 43%. In fact I actually rounded UP.

He really averaged 21.7 ppg on 41% shooting......

Again, Wade would never do that. And in the entire 7 games series he never scored over 25 points. For the entire series.

It's over. Pippen peaked at most 90's stars's absolute worst.

Elgee's (backpicks) 75 possessions

Points

Wade (2009 POs)- 31.2 points/75 on relative EFG% of -0.02
Pippen (1994 POs)- 25.1 points/75 on a relative EFG% of +0.01


Assists

Wade- 5.7 assists/75
Pippen- 5.1 assists/75

Rebounding

Wade- 5.4 rebounds/75
Pippen- 9.1 rebounds/75

Also TRB% reflects this as well.

So Wade only beats Pippen in scoring when comparing 09' playoffs to 94' playoffs. Everything, Pippen.

Defense

This is a bit hard to quantify because there is no exact stat that shows defense in its entirety. But Pippen was clearly the best defensive player in every series in 94' playoffs (was the defensive anchor) while Wade was not.

Notes: Pippen and Wade winshares and VORP are identical. Of course Wade beats Pippen in terms of boxscore impact.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen didn't average 23 on 43%. In fact I actually rounded UP.

He really averaged 21.7 ppg on 41% shooting......

Again, Wade would never do that. And in the entire 7 games series he never scored over 25 points. For the entire series.

It's over. Pippen peaked at most 90's stars's absolute worst.
Wade in his prime averaged 19 ppg on 41% shooting in the 2011 ECF, and while it was 5 games compared to 7, he still never scored over 25 points for the entire series

[Lebron23]

Better than Curry stats in the 2016 nba finals

[Phoenix]

Wade in his prime averaged 19 ppg on 41% shooting in the 2011 ECF, and while it was 5 games compared to 7, he still never scored over 25 points for the entire series

For whatever reason Wade seemed to struggle against the Bulls, I don't know if it was a soft spot for his hometown or what. It's interesting that Kirk Hinrich used to defend him really well. Says something about the 'nonathletic white guy stereotype that this site likes to push wnen it comes to defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Re Wade 09' versus Pippen 94', the Heat faced 47 win team with a Drating of 107.6 (12th in the league) during their loss in 7 games to Atlanta. The Bulls in 94' faced the Knicks for 7 of 10 games and the Cavs for 3. the Knicks had a dRating of 98.2 (1st in the league); Cavs 105.1 (11th). So the Bulls faced much tougher defense for some context for those numbers.


Wade in his prime averaged 19 ppg on 41% shooting in the 2011 ECF, and while it was 5 games compared to 7, he still never scored over 25 points for the entire series

Similar in the 07' series against the Bulls. Wade rarely took 3's so we need eFG% to properly compare. Pippen shot 44.7% eFG against the 94' Knicks. Wade was at 41.1% eFG in 11' ECF against the Bulls. The Bulls were the #1 defense too--but with a dRating of 100.3.

Against the Bulls in 07' Wade was at 42.9% eFG%. The Bulls the #1 defense (99.6 dRTG).

So off the top of our heads multiple posters have identified at least two series where prime Wade shot worse than Pippen--in an easier defensive era (according to MJ stans, right?).

Anyway, Pippen and Wade are perimeter players. What is the excuse for post players like Robinson and Ewing to shoot 41% and 36% respectively?


For whatever reason Wade seemed to struggle against the Bulls, I don't know if it was a soft spot for his hometown or what

The Bulls had the #1 defense. #1 defenses bring any stars' numbers down. Anyone remember the thread Fatal9 had a few years ago about MJ's numbers against #1 defenses (or #2 if CHI was #1 itself) in the playoffs?

We don't have to look far. Jordan shot worse in 93' than Pippen in 94' against the Knicks (#1 both years, but dRating of 98.2 in 94' versus 99.7 in 93') and much worse than Pippen did against the same team in 93'.

[SouBeachTalents]

For whatever reason Wade seemed to struggle against the Bulls, I don't know if it was a soft spot for his hometown or what. It's interesting that Kirk Hinrich used to defend him really well. Says something about the 'nonathletic white guy stereotype that this site likes to push wnen it comes to defense.
Yep, he averaged 24 ppg on 43% with 6 TO's a game while getting swept in '07 (although he was coming back from injury tbf) then averaged under 13 ppg in 2013. He even kept the shitty Chicago playoff tradition going as a Bull, averaging 15 ppg on 37% and scoring 2 points on 1/10 in the series ending loss

[Phoenix]

I didnt realize Chicago had the number one ranked defense in 07, interesting. I know they were top ranked in 2011. But even in that instance, in 2011 Boston had the 2nd ranked defense and he went off for 30 a game against them. He was just really subpar against Chicago. Not only lower production in ppg, but much worse efficiency. Wade was typically a 48-50% scorer in his prime.

[Roundball_Rock]

I looked at some Ewing numbers through 94' before when 3ball/2ball/BSBob were trolling a few weeks ago (it was near bed time so I stopped at 94' to get to his finals run). I don't have the percentages but when a player with Ewing's volume is scoring this "little" (by his standards) it is obvious his efficiency sucked.

Ewing vs. Celtics 88' 18.8 PPG
Ewing vs. Bulls 89' 17.0 PPG
Ewing vs. Pistons 90' 27.2 PPG
Ewing vs. Bulls 91' 16.7 PPG
Ewing vs. Bulls 92' 22.1 PPG
Ewing vs. Bulls 93' 25.8 PPG
Ewing vs. Rockets 94' 18.9 PPG
Average of averages: 20.9 PPG

This was cherry picking his absolute worst series. If you expand the list to other subpar (for him) series the list would become much longer. Even the Bulls' series referenced here--Ewing was 22.9 PPG versus Pippen's 21.7. Ewing was more efficient--scoring 1.37 points per shot to Pippen's 1.16--but we can't compare efficiency of a center/post player to a wing's given the type of shots they take.

So recall Pippen is a fraud for averaging 23 PPG as a #1 option in one playoff run (based on 7 games against the #1 defense; he was 25/10 against the Cavs for the other 3 games). What does that mean Ewing was?

This is the running theme: by their own standards for Pippen, MJ played in a weak era where guys like Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, Stockton, etc. could be considered elite players.

(Of course Ewing is a superstar and all-time great--I am just playing their game to show how dumb it is.)

[warriorfan]

Same deal with LeBron, Scottie doesn’t have the offensive skill and diversity to force up that many attempts, especially when not a section option and having to be the man.

[3ball]

Wade in his prime averaged 19 ppg on 41% shooting in the 2011 ECF, and while it was 5 games compared to 7, he still never scored over 25 points for the entire series

.
MJ never played this bad:



Lebron's worst series


2007 ECSF vs NJN.... 24.7 on 42.3%
2007 Finals vs SAS.... 22.0 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF vs BOS..... 26.7 on 35.5%

2010 ECSF vs BOS..... 26.8 on 44.7% (legendary quit-job)

2011 RD 1 vs PHI....... 24.2 on 46.9%
2011 ECF vs CHI........ 25.8 on 44.7%
2011 Finals vs DAL... 17.8 on 47.8%

2013 ECSF vs CHI...... 23.6 on 43.8%
2013 Finals vs SAS.... 25.3 on 44.7% (16 on 39% thru 3 games.. net negative for series)

2014 ECF vs IND........ 22.8 on 55.7%

2015 ECSF vs CHI...... 26.2 on 39.9%

2016 RD 1 vs DET...... 22.8 on 48.7%
2016 ECSF vs ATL..... 24.3 on 50.7%


Imagine winning the ECF with 22 ppg... :facepalm:

[Roundball_Rock]

Same deal with LeBron, Scottie doesn’t have the offensive skill and diversity to force up that many attempts, especially when not a section option and having to be the man.

Let's put that to the test by comparing other perimeter scorers against the Riley-era Knicks. One note, MJ stans will frequently argue the above but then praise Grant Hill's scoring ability. Their playoff scoring/efficiency numbers in their primes are identical. :lol

1992 Knicks (#2 defense, 104.2 rating)

Isiah 14.0 PPG on 33.8%
Dumars 16.8 PPG on 47.1%
Jordan 31.3 PPG on 47.7%
Pippen 16.0 PPG on 40.2%

1993 Knicks (#1 defense, 99.7 rating)

Miller 31.5 PPG on 53.3%
Schrempf 19.5 PPG on 46.3%
Gill 15.6 PPG on 39.5%
Jordan 32.2 PPG on 40.0%
Pippen 22.5 PPG on 51.0%

1994 Knicks (#1 defense, 98.2 rating)

Anderson 15.8 PPG on 35.2%
Miller 24.7 PPG on 43.5% (so a sharp decline when it was 7 games, not 3...)
Kukoc 8.6 PPG on 40.0% (who gets praised for his series by MJ stans)
Pippen 21.7 PPG on 40.5%
Maxwell 13.4 PPG on 36.5%
Horry 10.3 PPG on 32.4%
Cassell 10.0 PPG on 42.2%

1995 Knicks (#1 defense, 103.8 rating)

Price 15.0 PPG on 30.0%
Miller 22.6 PPG on 43.4%

So consistently poor shooting, other than MJ in one series and Miller for 3 games (he shot much worse when he had a pair of 7 game series in 94' and 95').


But even in that instance, in 2011 Boston had the 2nd ranked defense and he went off for 30 a game against them

That shows how dumb it is to heavily rely on small samples (especially one specific series). He was 43.8% for 22.2 against the #7 defense of PHI, roasted the #2 defense, struggled against the #1 defense, then played well in the finals against the #8 defense. All in a span of weeks. :lol

[BigShotBob]

Pippen never even scored over 25 points for the entire series. Reggie scored that in the 4th quarter alone against the Knicks that very same year.

Just face it, Pippen is extremely limited as an offensive threat - meaning his threat is minimal at best.

Also I said PEAK Wade would never be a scoring shell of himself like Pippen was. Wade had knee issues since 07' that bothered him for the remainder of his career.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen never even scored over 25 points for the entire series. Reggie scored that in the 4th quarter alone against the Knicks that very same year.

Just face it, Pippen is extremely limited as an offensive threat - meaning his threat is minimal at best.

Also I said PEAK Wade would never be a scoring shell of himself like Pippen was. Wade had knee issues since 07' that bothered him for the remainder of his career.
2011 was definitely close to peak Wade form

[3ball]

Reggie Miller played better against the 94' Knicks - 25 on 44%

Miller also outplayed Pippen against the 95" Magic and 00' Lakers.... By alot

[BigShotBob]

2011 was definitely close to peak Wade form

That was a resurgence year for him for sure. I don't know what steroid stack he was on.

He played extremely well in 05' and 06', was hobbled in 07' and 08', played well to begin 09' but was getting injections while in games for his knee pain and soreness, then came back strong in 2011 and would have been FMVP if it wasn't for a certain player's performance. After that he took a step back.

[Roundball_Rock]

More BS.

1) "Peak Wade" is generally considered 2009 and 2010 Wade. Some people would throw 2011 in there.
2) "Prime Wade" is 2005-2012.
3) The same Wade dominated the Finals the prior year.
4) Pippen was a facilitator first, scorer second. Miller was a scorer who didn't play defense or rebound so different roles. Miller focused solely on scoring on low volume. Anyway, Miller's career playoff high is 41; Pippen 37. Big difference. :lol

MJ stans' heads explode when their logic is applied to other players.


Just face it, Pippen is extremely limited as an offensive threat - meaning his threat is minimal at best.

Pippen's closest contemporary is Hill. Here are their numbers:

Pippen 91'-98': 20.0 PPG on 51.4% eFG, 24.6% usage
Pippen in 94': 22.0 PPG on on 51.5% eFG, 27.1% usage (as #1)
Hill 95'-00': 21.6 PPG on 48.0% eFG, 27.6% usage

In the playoffs:

Pippen 91'-98': 19.2 PPG on 47.2% eFG/52.1% TS
Hill 96'-00': 19.6 PPG on 46.4% eFG/51.6% TS

Yet posters like BS will praise Hill's scoring but say Pippen was "extremely limited", "mediocre", "poor", etc. You can't have it both ways. :lol

[BigShotBob]

More BS.

1) "Peak Wade" is generally considered 2009 and 2010 Wade. Some people would throw 2011 in there.
2) "Prime Wade" is 2005-2012.
3) The same Wade dominated the Finals the prior year.
4) Pippen was a facilitator first, scorer second. Miller was a scorer who didn't play defense or rebound so different roles. Miller focused solely on scoring on low volume. Anyway, Miller's career playoff high is 41; Pippen 37. Big difference. :lol

MJ stans' heads explode when their logic is applied to other players.



Pippen's closest contemporary is Hill. Here are their numbers:

Pippen 91'-98': 20.0 PPG on 51.4% eFG, 24.6% usage
Pippen in 94': 22.0 PPG on on 51.5% eFG, 27.1% usage (as #1)
Hill 95'-00': 21.6 PPG on 48.0% eFG, 27.6% usage

In the playoffs:

Pippen 91'-98': 19.2 PPG on 47.2% eFG/52.1% TS
Hill 96'-00': 19.6 PPG on 46.4% eFG/51.6% TS

Yet posters like BS will praise Hill's scoring but say Pippen was "extremely limited", "mediocre", "poor", etc. You can't have it both ways. :lol

We have the benefit of hindsight, meaning that we can say that Wade peaked in 06' (Healthy, Finals win with FMVP) and even though statistically 09' might have been his "best" year, he was hobbled by his knee issues. No different than what Kawhi is going through now with the exception of load management.

Also we both know Grant Hill never got to reach his peak due to injuries so that's hilariously disingenuous. His ppg did peak at 25 ppg (rounded up to 26) in 99-00 but again the very next year he was pretty much out for the season and then some. And that's as the number one option.

Pippen's highest scoring games came WITH Jordan.....BECAUSE of Jordan. A healthy Grant Hill with MJ = 6 rings. Easy.

[Turbo Slayer]

We have the benefit of hindsight, meaning that we can say that Wade peaked in 06' (Healthy, Finals win with FMVP) and even though statistically 09' might have been his "best" year, he was hobbled by his knee issues. No different than what Kawhi is going through now with the exception of load management.

Also we both know Grant Hill never got to reach his peak due to injuries so that's hilariously disingenuous. His ppg did peak at 25 ppg (rounded up to 26) in 99-00 but again the very next year he was pretty much out for the season and then some. And that's as the number one option.

Pippen's highest scoring games came WITH Jordan.....BECAUSE of Jordan. A healthy Grant Hill with MJ = 6 rings. Easy. No.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade's peak was 2009 and 2010. Those were the years he made first team all-NBA; those were the years he was top 5 in MVP. Some argue 2011 as well since he was a very similar player but LeBron deflated his accolades.


Also we both know Grant Hill never got to reach his peak

1) Irrelevant--the MJ stan argument relates to "prime Grant Hill", i.e., 1995-2000 Hill.
2) Hill was 28 when he was injured. Peaks are generally from 27-30. We saw his peak--just briefly.


His ppg did peak at 25 ppg (rounded up to 26)

A lot of players have one outlier or spike scoring year. That was Hill's. He was 20-21 PPG every other year of his prime. We never got to see Pippen's "spike" because he had only about 135 games as a #1 option.


Pippen's highest scoring games came WITH Jordan

His playoff career high did not come with Jordan. His scoring as well as his efficiency increased when MJ left; both his scoring and efficiency decreased when MJ returned. These are facts.


A healthy Grant Hill with MJ = 6 rings. Easy.

1) "Healthy" is a big qualifer. Durability matters. MJ was lucky to have a durable sidekick, unlike many other legends.
2) Hill was comparable offensively--Pippen>>>Hill defensively.
3) You confirmed my earlier point: Hill is great; Pippen sucks for precisely the same numbers. :roll:

[light]

He never scored over 25 points as the number one option for the entire 7 game series.

Is that "top 10 of the 90's" material?

Discuss.

Phil Jackson: "While Michael was always looking to score, Scottie was more interested in making sure the offense succeeded as a whole."

Four points:

1) The 1994 Bulls were known for their incredible ball movement - they ran the triangle perfectly.

2) Scoring over 25 points is arbitrary and it's irrelevant for either winning basketball or greatness (and even more irrelevant in the triangle offense).

3) The Knicks were double and triple teaming Pippen anyway.

4) A basketball player can dominate a game and not score at all.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/separator-2-superthinline8d1eaf09c61e89fc.png

Game 6 - Pippen only had 13 points. But 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, 2 blocks and one hellacious dunk on Ewing later and Chicago ran away with the W.

https://media.giphy.com/media/rsqXF1XxADp60/giphy.gif
Definitely Top 10 of the 90's material.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-08-at-1.53.32-PM.png

[LAmbruh]

Phil Jackson: "While Michael was always looking to score, Scottie was more interested in making sure the offense succeeded as a whole."

Four points:

1) The 1994 Bulls were known for their incredible ball movement - they ran the triangle perfectly.

2) Scoring over 25 points is arbitrary and it's irrelevant for either winning basketball or greatness (and even more irrelevant in the triangle offense).

3) The Knicks were double and triple teaming Pippen anyway.

4) A basketball player can dominate a game and not score at all.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/separator-2-superthinline8d1eaf09c61e89fc.png

Game 6 - Pippen only had 13 points. But 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, 2 blocks and one hellacious dunk on Ewing later and Chicago ran away with the W.

https://media.giphy.com/media/rsqXF1XxADp60/giphy.gif
Definitely Top 10 of the 90's material.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-08-at-1.53.32-PM.png

:applause:

[tpols]

heck Johnny Newman killed Pippen



:roll:

[BigShotBob]

Phil Jackson: "While Michael was always looking to score, Scottie was more interested in making sure the offense succeeded as a whole."

Four points:

1) The 1994 Bulls were known for their incredible ball movement - they ran the triangle perfectly.

2) Scoring over 25 points is arbitrary and it's irrelevant for either winning basketball or greatness (and even more irrelevant in the triangle offense).

3) The Knicks were double and triple teaming Pippen anyway.

4) A basketball player can dominate a game and not score at all.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/separator-2-superthinline8d1eaf09c61e89fc.png

Game 6 - Pippen only had 13 points. But 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, 2 blocks and one hellacious dunk on Ewing later and Chicago ran away with the W.

https://media.giphy.com/media/rsqXF1XxADp60/giphy.gif
Definitely Top 10 of the 90's material.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-08-at-1.53.32-PM.png

So Pippen was carried? No shit :roll:

Where was all of his "all-around" performance in game 7? :oldlol:

[tpols]

Pippen never even scored over 25 points for the entire series. Reggie scored that in the 4th quarter alone against the Knicks that very same year.

Just face it, Pippen is extremely limited as an offensive threat - meaning his threat is minimal at best.

Also I said PEAK Wade would never be a scoring shell of himself like Pippen was. Wade had knee issues since 07' that bothered him for the remainder of his career.

Reggie Miller is better than Scottie Pippen.

Infinitely better offensive player, infinitely more clutch, and a better leader.

[Roundball_Rock]

1) The 1994 Bulls were known for their incredible ball movement - they ran the triangle perfectly.

2) Scoring over 25 points is arbitrary and it's irrelevant for either winning basketball or greatness (and even more irrelevant in the triangle offense).

3) The Knicks were double and triple teaming Pippen anyway.

4) A basketball player can dominate a game and not score at all.

:applause:

They only understand ball hogging and shot jacking so they can't grasp things like playmaking, ball movement, helping teams doing something other than scoring for yourself, etc.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-08-at-1.53.32-PM.png

Where are you getting all this from? :bowdown:

In one of the pre-game intro pieces to one of the NY games Hubie Brown remarks how Pippen "is asked to do everything" and listed his responsibilities and both Brown and the announcer laughed at how much he had to do.

If Pippen was asked to do what Reggie Miller did: score and do absolutely nothing else of relevance on the court he would score more.


Where was all of his "all-around" performance in game 7?

New York, New York.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Bulls had a better offensive rating and scored more. So in other words, knicks got lucky to win because home court. Pippen was a success that year, Jordan shot 40% vs knicks the previous year as well. Knicks were a goat level defense in 93/94.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls had a better offensive rating and scored more. So in other words, knicks got lucky to win because home court. Pippen was a success that year, Jordan shot 40% vs knicks the previous year as well. Knicks were a goat level defense in 93/94.

Good points. Don't forget the Hue Hollins call giving the Knicks Game 5 when they should have been 3-2. They had been defeated on the court in New York.

[Hey Yo]

We have the benefit of hindsight, meaning that we can say that Wade peaked in 06' (Healthy, Finals win with FMVP) and even though statistically 09' might have been his "best" year, he was hobbled by his knee issues. No different than what Kawhi is going through now with the exception of load management.

Also we both know Grant Hill never got to reach his peak due to injuries so that's hilariously disingenuous. His ppg did peak at 25 ppg (rounded up to 26) in 99-00 but again the very next year he was pretty much out for the season and then some. And that's as the number one option.

Pippen's highest scoring games came WITH Jordan.....BECAUSE of Jordan. A healthy Grant Hill with MJ = 6 rings. Easy.
Grant doesn't sniff 55 wins as lead dog in 1994.

He eventually peters out before MJ comes back from quitting.

[Roundball_Rock]

Grant doesn't sniff 55 wins as lead dog in 1994.

He eventually peters out before MJ comes back from quitting.

Notice how they rip Pippen for not winning in one year? How about Grant Hill? 0 playoff series wins in his entire prime.

[scuzzy]

isn't op the same guy who called mitch richmond the jordan of the west? :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Notice how they rip Pippen for not winning in one year? How about Grant Hill? 0 playoff series wins in his entire prime.


:durantunimpressed:

[RRR3]

isn't op the same guy who called mitch richmond the jordan of the west? :oldlol:
Also the same guy who insists neither LeBron or Shaq are in the top 10 :lol

Truly a brilliant individual.

[Roundball_Rock]

Also the same guy who insists neither LeBron or Shaq are in the top 10 :lol

Truly a brilliant individual.

Are we sure he isn't a 3 ball alt?

[goozeman]

Pippen did what he always did in 1994. The only thing that really changed is usage skyrocketed for very minimal return. Why? Because he was a guy who wasn't versatile enough to really take on the scoring load. Advanced stats are often misused but they are great for playoffs because teams are allowed to get away with so much more defensively. Borderline or finesse scorers who can't get their own shot get exposed all the time in the playoffs. One of the reasons why you don't want your best scorer to be a point guard because they are more easily bothered by the physical play in the playoffs. So we get for Pippen in a second round exit:

WS
------
Horace Grant -- 1.7
B.J Armstrong -- 1.3
Scottie Pippen -- 1.2

WS/48
--------
Horace Grant -- .206
Toni Kukoc -- .179
B.J. Armstrong -- .168
Scottie Pippen -- .149

OBPM
-------
Toni Kukoc -- 5.8
Horace Grant -- 4.6
Scottie Pippen -- 4.0

Game Score vs Knicks
------------
Horace Grant -- 16.2
Scottie Pippen -- 15.6

Scottie Pippen gets called a play maker but he had a turnover for nearly every assist he made in the playoffs that year while shooting .43 percent from the field. In three losses against the Knicks by a combined nine points that series, Pippen had an egregious 13 turnovers and shot the ball just 38 percent from the field. The guy went 22-52 from the field and the Bulls lost by a combined 9 points in those three games. Let that sink in for a minute. Hell, you could argue Pippen's turnovers and poor shooting were the reason they lost. Pace was only low-90's back then which makes it even worse. Pippen had almost three quarters worth of doinks. Grant absolutely played on par with Pippen due his efficiency alone. Bulls had so many wasted offensive possession because Pippen either was getting forced into a bad shot or turned the ball over. So in the one year Pippen was said to be alpha in the playoffs, he arguably wasn't even the best player and might even be the reason they lost. A more efficient scorer could have put the Bulls over the top that series. Grant left the next year the Bulls tanked without his efficiency. Jordan comes back and the Bulls immediately go from a middling 15th or so ranked offense to the number one offense in the league and another title. And that about tells the whole story of the Pippen experiment in Chicago.

[Roundball_Rock]

Advanced stats for a tiny sample size is even more skewed. The Kukoc numbers tell the tale. He was 9/3/3 but your numbers show he>Pippen.

WS/48 is dumb because it penalizes better player, more durable players who can play high minutes. Why are we comparing Pippen and Kukoc when Pippen played double the minutes?


Pippen did what he always did in 1994. The only thing that really changed is usage skyrocketed for very minimal return

People can look at the numbers themselves. Pippen increased his efficiency as his volume rose; Penny's efficiency fell through the floor as his volume rose as a #1 as did Worthy's. Pippen showed scalability those other guys didn't.

It is interesting 22/9/6/3 is called "very minimal" return compared to the increase in usage. Penny and Worthy scored less despite higher volume--because their efficiency crashed.

We can discuss the pros and cons of Pippen's scoring but there has to be one standard. The same people who diss his scoring will praise Penny, for example, or Worthy or Kemp (another guy who couldn't scale up to a #1 option).


. Jordan comes back and the Bulls immediately go from a middling 15th or so ranked offense to the number one offense in the league and another title

The Bulls' offense declined more minus Pippen than without MJ. Sorry MJ bros, that is a historical fact.

[3ball]

WS/48 is dumb because it penalizes better player, more durable players who can play high minutes. Why are we comparing Pippen and Kukoc when Pippen played double the minutes?




No you're wrong on what the stat is calculating

Lets assume Pippen played 35 minutes and Kukoc 25

Pippen's lower WS/48 shows that he didn't outplay other guys who were at 35 minutes as much as Kukoc outplayed the 25-minute guys

Essentially, who cares that a player gets stats if their stats are cancelled out by other guys playing the same minutes - so Kukoc outplaying his matchup more than Pippen meant he contributed more to the win than Pippen... 3 guys were outplaying their matchups more than Pippen - Pippen was 4th in WS/48

But we already know Pippen gets outplayed a ton - you already made a long post showing Pippen didn't outplay a ton of 2nd options between 90-98'.. he was stalmated or outplayed in the majority of series.. guys like Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, X-man, Majerle and Kemp were starching him, right in the middle of his prime

[Rico2016]

Better than Curry stats in the 2016 nba finals

:roll: :roll:

[Rico2016]

WS/48 is dumb because it penalizes better player, more durable players who can play high minutes. Why are we comparing Pippen and Kukoc when Pippen played double the minutes?

Exactly. WS/48 benefits people.who made fewer finals racling up 1st round stats and those that take 2 year frshen up breaks. Nice try 3ball.

[3ball]

Are we sure he isn't a 3 ball alt?

I don't have any alts

[3ball]

Pippen did what he always did in 1994. The only thing that really changed is usage skyrocketed for very minimal return. Why? Because he was a guy who wasn't versatile enough to really take on the scoring load. Advanced stats are often misused but they are great for playoffs because teams are allowed to get away with so much more defensively. Borderline or finesse scorers who can't get their own shot get exposed all the time in the playoffs. One of the reasons why you don't want your best scorer to be a point guard because they are more easily bothered by the physical play in the playoffs. So we get for Pippen in a second round exit:

WS
------
Horace Grant -- 1.7
B.J Armstrong -- 1.3
Scottie Pippen -- 1.2

WS/48
--------
Horace Grant -- .206
Toni Kukoc -- .179
B.J. Armstrong -- .168
Scottie Pippen -- .149

OBPM
-------
Toni Kukoc -- 5.8
Horace Grant -- 4.6
Scottie Pippen -- 4.0

Game Score vs Knicks
------------
Horace Grant -- 16.2
Scottie Pippen -- 15.6

Scottie Pippen gets called a play maker but he had a turnover for nearly every assist he made in the playoffs that year while shooting .43 percent from the field. In three losses against the Knicks by a combined nine points that series, Pippen had an egregious 13 turnovers and shot the ball just 38 percent from the field. The guy went 22-52 from the field and the Bulls lost by a combined 9 points in those three games. Let that sink in for a minute. Hell, you could argue Pippen's turnovers and poor shooting were the reason they lost. Pace was only low-90's back then which makes it even worse. Pippen had almost three quarters worth of doinks. Grant absolutely played on par with Pippen due his efficiency alone. Bulls had so many wasted offensive possession because Pippen either was getting forced into a bad shot or turned the ball over. So in the one year Pippen was said to be alpha in the playoffs, he arguably wasn't even the best player and might even be the reason they lost. A more efficient scorer could have put the Bulls over the top that series. Grant left the next year the Bulls tanked without his efficiency. Jordan comes back and the Bulls immediately go from a middling 15th or so ranked offense to the number one offense in the league and another title. And that about tells the whole story of the Pippen experiment in Chicago.

https://tenor.com/zAl8.gif

[AussieSteve]

He never scored over 25 points as the number one option for the entire 7 game series.

Is that "top 10 of the 90's" material?

Discuss.

I have no doubt that I could find many, many ATGs who had series worse than 22ppg on 45%efg during thier prime.

Statistically speaking, this is not a terrible series by any stretch. Especially when you consider that scoring was possibly the weakest part of Pippen's game.

[Roundball_Rock]

I have no doubt that I could find many, many ATGs who had series worse than 22ppg on 45%efg during thier prime.

Statistically speaking, this is not a terrible series by any stretch. Especially when you consider that scoring was possibly the weakest part of Pippen's game.

They know that too--which is why they never provide the same info for Pippen's superstar peers. I will do so and people will see how other superstars of the era have far more skeletons in their playoffs closet...

We don't need to look far. Ewing (praised here) had a massive egg when it counted most in the finals (while Pippen played well in 5 of 6 finals) and Robinson scored 20 PPG at his peak on 41% as a center/poster player the same in the postseason (he averaged 30 PPG during the RS).

[AussieSteve]

They know that too--which is why they never provide the same info for Pippen's superstar peers. I will do so and people will see how other superstars of the era have far more skeletons in their playoffs closet...

We don't need to look far. Ewing (praised here) had a massive egg when it counted most in the finals (while Pippen played well in 5 of 6 finals) and Robinson scored 20 PPG at his peak on 41% as a center/poster player the same in the postseason (he averaged 30 PPG during the RS).

Here are some.of David Robinson's peak playoff series.
1993 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1994 Rd1: 20ppg on 41%efg
1995 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1996 Rd2: 19ppg on 47%efg

It's confirmed. Pippen > DRob

[AussieSteve]

Here are some of Larry Bird's peak playoff series.

1981 finals: 15ppg on 42%efg
1982 rd1: 17ppg on 45%efg
1982 ECF: 18ppg on 41%efg
1983 rd1: 22ppg on 41%efg
1983 rd2: 19ppg on 44%efg
1985 ECF: 21ppg on 42%efg
1988 ECF: 20ppg on 36%efg

It's confirmed. Pippen > Bird

[Bronbron23]

He never scored over 25 points as the number one option for the entire 7 game series.

Is that "top 10 of the 90's" material?

Discuss.

So your just gonna ignore his influence on the game defensively? To answer your question though yes. If your the best defender in the league plus your scoring 22 pts a game that absolutely makes you a top 10.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are some of Larry Bird's peak playoff series.

1981 finals: 15ppg on 42%efg
1982 rd1: 17ppg on 45%efg
1982 ECF: 18ppg on 41%efg
1983 rd1: 22ppg on 41%efg
1983 rd2: 19ppg on 44%efg
1985 ECF: 21ppg on 42%efg
1988 ECF: 20ppg on 36%efg

It's confirmed. Pippen > Bird

Great finds on Bird and Robinson! :cheers: Bookmarking.

Prime Grant Hill

1997: 24 PPG on 43% eFG
1999: 19 PPG on 46% eFG
2000: 11 PPG on 36% eFG

Detroit missed the playoffs in 95', 98'. Prime Hill literally had only one good playoff series, a 3 game series in 96'. MJ stans love the guy, though, and always point to him as what Pippen should have been. Note: these are all 1st round series since prime Hill never won a series.

Ewing

1988 1st round: 19 PPG on 49% (10 points on 3 for 12 on 25% to get eliminated)
1989 1st round: 17 PPG on 46% (8 on 3 for 12, 25%, in Game 3 but NY wins)
1991 1st round: 17 PPG on 40% (6 points on 43% in Game 1. NY swept.)
1992 ECSF Game 7: 22/9/1 on 42%; Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
1994 1st round: 25 PPG but on 41.5%
1994 ECSF Game 7: Ewing 18/17/6 in Game 7; Pippen 20/16/5 (both shoot poorly)
1994 ECF: 22 PPG on 46%
1994 ECF Game 3: Ewing goes 1/4/2 on 0% shooting; Indiana stays alive
1994 Finals: 19 PPG on 36%. Ewing destroyed on both ends of the floor.
1994 Finals Game 7: 17/10/1 on 41%
1995 ECSF: 19 PPG on 50% (solid efficiency but NY needed more volume)
1995 ECSF Games 1-3: 12 PPG on 42% (Favorite NY goes down 2-1. Ewing rallies but chokes on the series winning finger roll in Game 7.)
1997 ECSF Game 6: Ewing suspended, Knicks lose by 5 in the process of blowing a 3-1 series lead

So something year after year and these are his absolute worst. I didn't post his subpar or average series. Nor did I closely look at every game log. If he looked deeper we can make it even worse.

Ewing a center who didn't take threes so we can use just FG %.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are some.of David Robinson's peak playoff series.

1993 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1994 Rd1: 20ppg on 41%efg
1995 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1996 Rd2: 19ppg on 47%efg

It's confirmed. Pippen > DRob

MJ stans going to avoid this? This is the guy who was a perennial MVP contender in the 90's. This is him at his best--and doesn't even list the embarrassment he suffered the one time he could have made the finals as a #1 in 95' in the WCF.

[BigShotBob]

MJ stans going to avoid this? This is the guy who was a perennial MVP contender in the 90's. This is him at his best--and doesn't even list the embarrassment he suffered the one time he could have made the finals as a #1 in 95' in the WCF.

Pippen's peak was 22 with 40% so.....even if what you say is true (which it isn't) DRob > Pippen. Unless you're asserting that Jordan couldn't win 6 rings with DRob and that Pippen could carry the Spurs BETTER than DRob?

Let the gymnastics begin.

[LAmbruh]

This has gotten ugly

Somebody wipe the jizz off ops face

[3ball]

Here are some of David Robinson's peak playoff series.

1993 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1994 Rd1: 20ppg on 41%efg
1995 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1996 Rd2: 19ppg on 47%efg

It's confirmed. Pippen > DRob

^^^ no, those are his worst series from his prime, which are much better than Pippen's worst

Once again, your stats illustrate Pippen's inferiority, this time how his floor is far below DR's

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's peak was 22 with 40% so.....even if what you say is true (which it isn't) DRob > Pippen

Robinson's peak was 20% with 41% (same as Pippen--you comically round down for Pippen). Clearly you don't watch basketball. 41% for a center/poster player<<<<the same for a perimeter player...:lol Yet this is the guy MJ won MVP over in 1996?


no, those are his worst series from his prime

Those are literally half of his series from his 1993-1996 peak...they are his legacy. If the playoffs didn't exist Robinson would be a candidate for top 15 all-time but he pays a tax for consistently choking and that costs him 8-10 spots.


1993 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1994 Rd1: 20ppg on 41%efg
1995 Rd1: 19ppg on 43%efg
1996 Rd2: 19ppg on 47%efg


So now efficiency doesn't matter. A center shooting 41% eFG>a perimeter player shooting 43%. These people don't understand basketball in the least.

[3ball]

Robinson's peak was 20% with 41% (same as Pippen--you comically round down for Pippen). Clearly you don't watch basketball. 41% for a center/poster player<<<<the same for a perimeter player...:lol Yet this is the guy MJ won MVP over in 1996?



Those are literally half of his series from his 1993-1996 peak...they are his legacy. If the playoffs didn't exist Robinson would be a candidate for top 15 all-time but he pays a tax for consistently choking and that costs him 8-10 spots.



So now efficiency doesn't matter. A center shooting 41% eFG>a perimeter player shooting 43%. These people don't understand basketball in the least.

When you've been cornered into arguing that Pippen > Robinson... You lost... And badly

[Roundball_Rock]

Except for the minor detail that I have Robinson ahead of Pippen all-time. That doesn't erase Robinson's hardcore choking--which is why he is around 25 on all-time lists instead of around 15. He did it to himself. Fortunately for him, Malone and Stockton and the Seattle SuperChokers existed in the same era to minimize the spotlight on his perennial choking. If Robinson played today he would be roasted even worse than Harden.

[BigShotBob]

Except for the minor detail that I have Robinson ahead of Pippen all-time. That doesn't erase Robinson's hardcore choking--which is why he is around 25 on all-time lists instead of around 15. He did it to himself. Fortunately for him, Malone and Stockton and the Seattle SuperChokers existed in the same era to minimize the spotlight on his perennial choking. If Robinson played today he would be roasted even worse than Harden.

But if Robinson played with MJ then he would be viewed as a winner.

Just like.....Pippen :lol

It's over. Thanks for playing.

Mods zip this thread up. It's a bodybag.

[Roundball_Rock]

Robinson did win 2 rings past his prime. Rings don't erase consistently poor playoff performance in his prime. The reason Pippen doesn't have this perception? He was a good playoff performer. MJ stan deception doesn't change the reality that the rest of the world saw.

[3ball]

Robinson did win 2 rings past his prime. Rings don't erase consistently poor playoff performance in his prime. The reason Pippen doesn't have this perception? He was a good playoff performer. MJ stan deception doesn't change the reality that the rest of the world saw.

22 on 40% isn't "good"

He also choked 3 times in that series because mike wasnt there to do everything

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen played in 29 series in his prime. Robinson's reputation comes from what Aussie posted earlier: the guy flamed out in literally half of his series at his peak.

[AussieSteve]

When you've been cornered into arguing that Pippen > Robinson... You lost... And badly

No one actually thinks Pip > DRob

But, Pippen has a better case over DRob than 90% of the players you've argued over Pippen .

[Roundball_Rock]

No one actually thinks Pip > DRob

But, Pippen has a better case over DRob than 90% of the players you've argued over Pippen .

Yup. Their problem is they are incapable (as zealots) of applying their own criteria to other players. Using their own standards, Robinson is a terrible choker--but their brain short circuits and they can't acknowledge that.

That doesn't necessarily make him an inferior to more consistent, but less talented players. It just helps explain the delta between his ability and his results and all-time ranking. Life is not as simple as they want to make it out to be. Malone is a similar player to Robinson in being a great talent but a consistent playoff choker.

[BigShotBob]

Robinson did win 2 rings past his prime. Rings don't erase consistently poor playoff performance in his prime. The reason Pippen doesn't have this perception? He was a good playoff performer. MJ stan deception doesn't change the reality that the rest of the world saw.

He was good because he played with.....someone......damn I can't remember his name........

Michael Jordan.

It's over. This thread and narrative is done.

[Roundball_Rock]

Brilliant logic. Can't dispute that.

Regarding #badfaith, they won't even discuss any other players. They are homing missiles to bash Pippen non-stop because they think that somehow helps with the looming LeBron freight train. :lol

[3ball]

1988 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (10 on 46%)

1989 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (13 on 46%)

1990 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (migraine cost Bulls title.. 16 on 42% in ecf)

1991 Pippen... NORMAL Playoffs (fouled out/missed Game 3 OT)

1992 Pippen... NORMAL Playoffs (choked in 2nd Rd and outplayed by X-man, so series went 7)

1993 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws48.. 50% ts.. aka worse than 14' Wade... 45.9 ts in Finals)

1994 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (21.7 on 40% in 2nd Rd.. 2 epic chokes.. Ewing >>>)

1995 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (19 on 40% in 2nd Round caused loss)

1996 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs 16.9 on 39.0%)

1997 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (16 on 41% in ECF... 16 on 38% in 1st Rd, outplayed by Howard.. last in Finals clutch so mj had to win 3 games)

1998 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (16 on 41%)

1999 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (18 on 33%)

2000 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (14.9 on 41%)

2001 Pippen... Horrible Playoffs (13 on 41%)