Debunking the myth that MJ played in a strong era

[AirBonner]

Firstly, Jordan played (and mostly won) championships during an expansion era of the league. Yes, believe it or not, Michael Jordan played during an era where the league was still trying to find its own identity and incorporate different cities of America into the league. Because of this, Jordan played against some of the worst competition the league has ever seen, owning some of the worst records in NBA history that still stand today. During his career, 6 sub .500 teams were added to the league, which in turn, diluted an already inferior talent pool within the early stages of the league development.

RULE CHANGES

As we’ve already established, the league was still discovering itself and developing during MJ’s career, and as a part of that development, league rules were also a central part of that change. Now, I know what some of you are thinking, but before you start yell “hand checking, hand checking”, keep in mind, Jordan played during a time where the illegal defense rule existed. This is massive because hand checking is really nothing in comparison. The magnitude of the rule doesn’t compare to the significance of the illegal defense. Without the ability to play a zone defense or anything close to it, defensive schemes were less elaborate and teams were unable to send or even show multiple bodies at stars. Can you imagine a league nowadays in which superstars were left with single man coverages? That was the reality. Can you imagine players like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant etc being able to basically go one-on-one with a defender who has been left there on an island with no hope in stopping them? It’s crazy when you think about that now in that light. Can you imagine some of the numbers the more modern superstars could have put up with that luxury.

MAJOR STATISTICS INDICATE IT WAS IN FACT AN INFERIOR ERA AS WELL

You’d think that if the assumption Jordan played in a better era the numbers would back that up, right? Well they in fact do the opposite. Major stats taken across the board for the duration of his career indicate that Jordan did in fact play in an inferior era to today’s game. The overall Points Per game average was higher despite the fast-paced, more possessions per game we experience today. The Field Goals Made per game was higher, Field Goals attempted across the board were higher on average again despite the supreme pace we see night in and night out nowadays. The overall Field Goal Percentage was also higher. All in all, saving you some reading time, advanced stats are also not favorable. Not to mention basically everything that has to do with outside shooting, the three-point line and overall efficiency being better today.

[AirBonner]

Continued...

INDIVIDUAL DEFENSE/DEFENSES

This is obvious, but simply put – individual and overall defense were less advanced when Jordan played. I often hear people claiming Jordan “would average 50 in this era”, but let’s be real, he wouldn’t average 50 (no one could do that), and even if he did average a high points per game average, it would be down to the increased pace and more possessions, not because the defenses or defensive players are worse now, because they’re not.

JORDAN PLAYED FOR A HALL-OF-FAME HEAD COACH, AND WAS A PART OF THE GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS OF THEIR GENERATION


It’s no secret Jordan destroyed the competition, but it’s very interesting when they praise Jordan for dominating, but discredit today’s competition in comparison. It’s interesting because what people fail to realise is that Jordan played in the 90s version of the Golden State Warriors that we see tear apart the league today. Jordan’s Bulls were absolutely the equivalent in their era. Of course both teams were built and constructed differently, but their dominance and status were the same.

[LAmbruh]

Good post :applause:

[BigShotBob]

Wrong. Scoring is easier now more than ever before. The Pacers wrote a letter to the League's front office because playing defense became impossible.

It's over.

[PeroAntic]

Jordan is the GOAT. Lebron is not. deal with it.

[dbugz]

another Delusional libron fan :roll:

MJ is the GOAT.

https://smirfittsspeech.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/998c311c-2ba6-4232-8e1f-40569397de6d.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Notice how the responses are insecure "MJ is GOAT" versus responses to the points made in the OP?

[AirBonner]

another Delusional libron fan :roll:

MJ is the GOAT.

https://smirfittsspeech.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/998c311c-2ba6-4232-8e1f-40569397de6d.gif

Never seen you post about the Celtics

[AirBonner]

Notice how the responses are insecure "MJ is GOAT" versus responses to the points made in the OP?

Bingo. Not one of them has stepped up to the plate to break down a concise response. I can only accept victory at this point

[Turbo Slayer]

Good post, OP!

[warriorfan]

Illegal defense wasn’t really enforced. You are exposing yourself as not watching basketball back then. The defense was more physical, the paint was more clogged. Perimeter scoring was down a lot compared to now. Things started to change after the 2004 Pistons dominated everyone with extremely physical defense. Mark Cuban complained and others agreed they didn’t like the direction the league was going in terms of attracting more fans. They felt like no one wanted to watch bloodbaths where neither team scores 100 points. So they changed the rules to take away physicality, especially on the perimeter, and in turn you can see the effects as all perimeter players watched their production jump up dramatically.

[Soundwave]

The Bulls would have been better in a non-expansion era.

All teams would have more talent, but the thing people who push this argument so hard are too stupid to realize is the Bulls ALSO would have been better as a result.

At minimum it means they'd likely have another 1-2 good players themselves. Losing BJ Armstrong in 1995 to the expansion draft for example didn't help the Bulls.

If you give every team 1-2 more solid rotation players as a result of non-expansion, the Bulls are still better than any team in the 90s because they still have the best player.

Teams double and triple teamed Jordan all the time, lol, to act like that was never tried is idiotic. It didn't make a difference. Defensive schemes today are a joke, the Warriors were a so-called "great defensive team" HAH! They played like 10 minutes of defence a night if that.

[Carbine]

Illegal defense wasn’t really enforced. You are exposing yourself as not watching basketball back then. The defense was more physical, the paint was more clogged. Perimeter scoring was down a lot compared to now. Things started to change after the 2004 Pistons dominated everyone with extremely physical defense. Mark Cuban complained and others agreed they didn’t like the direction the league was going in terms of attracting more fans. They felt like no one wanted to watch bloodbaths where neither team scores 100 points. So they changed the rules to take away physicality, especially on the perimeter, and in turn you can see the effects as all perimeter players watched their production jump up dramatically.

Certainly wasn't true for the 91 and 92 playoff runs. Illegal defense was being called consistently.

[Bronbron23]

Notice how the responses are insecure "MJ is GOAT" versus responses to the points made in the OP?

Its probably because the points are trash. The expansion argument has to be one of the worst ever. Nobody lost anyone of significance so the only legit argument to expansion is that there were more teams so the league got watered down a bit. Problem with that is there's more teams now than ever so the league is still watered down.

The rule change era is another trash argument. The rules especially for perimeter players has made scoring easier than ever. This isnt even arguable. Its in the leagues mandate. The defensive 3 secs and zone is a joke also. Teams played zone qnd rarely got called for defensive 3. They also doubled and trippled teamed regularly. Statement like this makes me wonder if yall watched mj play at all. He was the goat at beating double and tripple teams. Also teams dont play zone in the nba. It dosnt work. Nba players can shoot to good. Teams play as much zone now as they did in the 90's even though it legal.

As far as the era and people scoring more points and being more efficient overall its because the game was based around inside scoring so of course is gonna be more efficient than an era where everyone is jacking up 40 foot shots including the big men alot of them who really shouldn't. Plus like i said this era right now is easily the easiest to score ever. Shit theres multiple guys putting up 22-30 points now that wouldn't do the same in previous era's.

Its kind of funny how guys like you totally ignore the impact of physical play like the 90's yet every year in the playoffs where the game is more slowed down and physical we see these stars struggle and have a much harder time.

[Roundball_Rock]

Its kind of funny how guys like you totally ignore the impact of physical play like the 90's yet every year in the playoffs

I have consistently been saying it is easier to score today. :confusedshrug: It has been MJ stans who were saying the opposite of late (long story short, their analysis of defenses being easier today magically doesn't apply to Pippen, Wade, Kyrie but applies to every other perimeter player of the past 30 years :oldlol: ).


The expansion argument has to be one of the worst ever.

The record speaks for itself: rosters got dramatically diluted due to expansion. All anyone has to do is look at the rosters of the top teams before and after rounds of expansion. A team with John Starks as its second option would be a joke in the 80's but in the 90's a perennial contender.

[AirBonner]

I have consistently been saying it is easier to score today. :confusedshrug: It has been MJ stans who were saying the opposite of late (long story short, their analysis of defenses being easier today magically doesn't apply to Pippen, Wade, Kyrie but applies to every other perimeter player of the past 30 years :oldlol: ).



The record speaks for itself: rosters got dramatically diluted due to expansion. All anyone has to do is look at the rosters of the top teams before and after rounds of expansion. A team with John Starks as its second option would be a joke in the 80's but in the 90's a perennial contender.
Facts:cheers:

[Rico2016]

Notice how the responses are insecure "MJ is GOAT" versus responses to the points made in the OP?

They are visibly SHOOK. OP's post got me like:

https://i.postimg.cc/PJw2h6g9/ezgif-com-gif-maker.gif

Ether after ether.

[Bronbron23]

I have consistently been saying it is easier to score today. :confusedshrug: It has been MJ stans who were saying the opposite of late (long story short, their analysis of defenses being easier today magically doesn't apply to Pippen, Wade, Kyrie but applies to every other perimeter player of the past 30 years :oldlol: ).



The record speaks for itself: rosters got dramatically diluted due to expansion. All anyone has to do is look at the rosters of the top teams before and after rounds of expansion. A team with John Starks as its second option would be a joke in the 80's but in the 90's a perennial contender.

not on a defensive team like the knicks it wouldn't. Shit the mavs beat brons super team with jason terry as the second option so im not sure what u mean

[r0drig0lac]

Jordan is the GOAT. Lebron is not. deal with it.

/thread

[Soundwave]

Again idiotic logic ... no expansion means all teams benefit INCLUDING the Bulls.

The Bulls were robbed of having better rosters in part due to expansion, they lost a 14 ppg starter in Armstrong for no good reason.

If expansion means every team gets basically an extra good player or two ... the Bulls would also benefit from that and you're right back to square one if that's your freaking hope for stopping Jordan from winning titles.

[Roundball_Rock]

Again idiotic logic ... no expansion means all teams benefit INCLUDING the Bulls.

:facepalm

Yes, the one team that still had two superstars was hurt by expansion. :lol


The Bulls were robbed of having better rosters in part due to expansion, they lost a 14 ppg starter in Armstrong for no good reason.

Wait, I thought you watched back in the 90's and supposedly were a Bulls fan? You just exposed yourself. There was "good reason" Armstrong was let go that those who followed the team then know of...

[Rico2016]

6,911 is all I know

[Leviathon1121]

Is Lebron within 50% of Jordan in any significant GOAT poll yet?

[Rico2016]

Is Lebron within 50% of Jordan in any significant GOAT poll yet?

Broke all his playoff records. Whoopz.

[Bronbron23]

Broke all his playoff records. Whoopz.

except for the most important one

[Roundball_Rock]

except for the most important one

Which one is that?

[light]

Nobody thinks MJ played in a strong era.

[Soundwave]

Broke all his playoff records. Whoopz.

Yeah 28.9 ppg sure is more than 33.5 ppg last time I checked. Kevin Durant scores at a higher rate in the playoffs than LeBron, LeBron is not even the highest scoring playoff player of this era.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nobody thinks MJ played in a strong era.

The irony is no one implicitly tears down that era more than MJ's own fans. For example, in another recent threads they are arguing in MJ's era a nobody could make the Dream Team. That's a damning statement of weakness for the era. They couldn't find enough legit great players to fill one team?

[warriorfan]

6,911 is all I know

This is the most accurate post you have ever made.

[3ball]

Good post :applause:

:facepalm:

[Soundwave]

LeBron James didn't play in a strong era either. Majority of his career in the historically weak Eastern Conference. The Durant Warriors were only together for 3 years, how do you explain all the other losses in the Finals? Losing to Dwight Howard so we couldn't see how he would fare against Kobe Bryant? Tim Duncan was a freaking grandpa by the mid-2010s ... the younger Heat should've destroyed them.

No era is as strong as the 1980s overall. Not the 2000s or 2010s either.

There's been only two really great dynasties since the Bulls of the 90s -- the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the Durant-era Warriors. But that's only two teams out of 20+ years. The Spurs would pop in/pop out but never good enough to dominate outright for years on end.

There's nothing that special about this era, if Jordan played today all these weak ass "superstars" would be lining up to team up with him.

[Rico2016]

Yeah 28.9 ppg sure is more than 33.5 ppg last time I checked. Kevin Durant scores at a higher rate in the playoffs than LeBron, LeBron is not even the highest scoring playoff player of this era.

Sorry I dont use old school ppg. Meaning I dont put Iverson and Rick Barry over LBJ and Kareem :lol TRY AGAIN

[3ball]

During his career, 6 sub .500 teams were added to the league,




the original 23 teams were still there - so MJ was playing the same good teams before and after expansion... those good teams simply had a couple extra wins on the schedule than the prior year, but the road to the championship went through the same contenders and wasn't any easier

The dilution argument is just another faulty argument that doesn't further the case for today's stars over prior eras..





6 sub .500 teams were added to the league, which diluted an already inferior talent pool within the early stages of the league development.




Expansion teams were created from the league's existing players.. Each team in the league made 2 players available for the expansion draft, and 2 new teams were created from these 24 players.. So the talent wasn't diluted, aka lesser talent - it was the same talent.

A 30-team league of 12-player teams equals 360 players total (the top 360 players in the world)..

A 25-team league would be the top 300 players.. obviously, the 300-player league is tougher to make as a player.. So the smaller league can make the dilution argument against the bigger league, not the other way around.. Today's league of 30 teams is the most diluted the league has ever been.






where the league was still trying to find its own identity and incorporate different cities of America into the league.




Players came from all over the US - just because the NBA was in a few less cities doesn't mean players didn't still come from those cities... dumb comment







https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-30-2015/s2178L.gif



RULE CHANGES

Without the ability to play a zone, teams were unable show multiple bodies at stars.




Jordan was always "seeing" multiple defenders as the gifs show because man-to-man defense allowed a certain amount of sagging off - not as much as today's game, but it was more than enough to cover the lesser spacing/smaller court they were defending (hence the zone-looking gifs above)

All MJ saw was multiple defenders - no one saw multiple defenders impeding his path like MJ, and previous eras saw more in general due to lack of spacing/smaller court.







https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif



imagine some of the numbers the more modern superstars could have put up without seeing multiple defenders?




Lebron shot 39% in that scenario because that setup encourages high volume, but lebron is bad at the additional pull-up and contested jumpshooting that high volume requires - he shot less than 20% outside of 5 feet in that series






The overall Points Per game average was higher despite the fast-paced, more possessions per game of today


.

FG percentage is lower because 3-pointers have lower percentage.. but percentage on 2-pointers is up because of the wide open paints that today's game uses.

Most importantly, league ORtg (accounts for pace) reached record highs for the last 3 years, so it's WAY easier to score today

Also, effective field goal percentage is up (this includes the effect of threes) and true shooting (includes free throws and today's increased FT rate)

[Rico2016]

OP stays winning

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan played in a weak era by the admission of his own fans. Here are some highlights from the past week alone:

*90's so weak a "nobody" was considered "essential" for the Dream Team. What was the fallback option? The local YMCA?
*Hakeem=Anthony Davis. In other words, Davis would be the best player in the NBA for two years if he played in a weaker era. In this era he is the second best player on his own team.
*Pau Gasol would be a MVP candidate/all-NBA 1st team player in the 90's. He never got a 5th place MVP vote when he actually played.
*Kyrie Irving would be a MVP candidate/all-NBA 1st team player in the 90's. In this era he can't even get one 5th place MVP vote.
*Scoring 20 PPG was so easy in the 90's even terrible scorers routinely could do that in the 90's.
*The playoff comp was so weak perennial playoff chokers like Robinson, Malone, Stockton are not even worth commenting on for said chokes.
*A guy who, according to MJ fans' own stated standards, sucked as a scorer and couldn't get out the first round in his prime was the "next MJ" in the 90's.

I could probably come up with 20 more but these gems are all from MJ stans themselves over the past week.

[3ball]

And we know it's bs because MJ and lebron played against a lot of the sane players, and MJ played much better against them

- MJ won MVP and the East over peak Shaq in 96', while lebron lost the MVP and the East to old Shaq in 06'

- MJ dominated Duncan in 1998 regular season, and destroyed the team that destroyed Duncan in playoffs... Otoh, lebron gets beat by record amount

- MJ teaches kobe everything, while lebron misses a Finals date with Kobe in 09' and 10'


So MJ dominated much of lebron's best comp, which makes the era argument bogus

[AussieSteve]

Here's a list of the top 3 players (by win shares) on each of the top four East teams (aside from the Bulls) during the Bulls championship years

I've bolded players who are consensus top 50 and were in their prime

I'm keen to hear people's thoughts on all these 'big threes'. How do they compare to Jordan's supporting casts of Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Armstrong (91,92,93); Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, Rodman, Harper (96,97,98)

1991
Boston: Parish, Gamble, McHale
Detroit: Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer
Milwaukee: Humphries, Robertson, Schayes
Philly: Barkley, Dawkins, Mahorn

1992
Cleveland: Nance, Daugherty, Hot Rod Williams
Boston: Lewis, Pinckney, Parish
New York: Ewing, Jackson, Starks
Detroit: Rodman, Dumars, Thomas

1993
New York: Ewing, Starks, Mason
Cleveland: Daugherty, Nance, Price
Boston: Lewis, Parish, Gamble
Charlotte: Johnson, Mourning, Bogues

1996
Orlando: Penny, Scott, Grant
Indiana: Miller, Jackson, Davis
Cleveland: Brandon, Cage, Mills
New York: Mason, Ewing, Harper

1997
Miami: Hardaway, Mourning, Brown
New York: Ewing, Oakley, Johnson
Atlanta: Blaylock, Laettner, Mutombo
Detroit: Hill, Dumars, Thorpe

1998
Indiana: Miller, Mullin, Jackson
Miami: Hardaway, Brown, Mourning
Charlotte: Rice, Mason, Geiger
Atlanta: Mutombo, Smith, Laettner

[AussieSteve]

And we know it's bs because MJ and lebron played against a lot of the sane players, and MJ played much better against them

- MJ won MVP and the East over peak Shaq in 96', while lebron lost the MVP and the East to old Shaq in 06'

- MJ dominated Duncan in 1998 regular season, and destroyed the team that destroyed Duncan in playoffs... Otoh, lebron gets beat by record amount

- MJ teaches kobe everything, while lebron misses a Finals date with Kobe in 09' and 10'


So MJ dominated much of lebron's best comp, which makes the era argument bogus

Shaq missed 30 games and finished 9th in the 96 MVP

Duncan was a rookie in 98

Even by your standards, these are terrible examples.

[Soundwave]

Jordan was the best actual player in the 80s anyway (the so-called "best era ever").

Yes he was always better than Magic and Bird, he just didn't have the team to back him up with in those days.

Go watch the 84 Olympic team playing against the NBA All-Star selects that had Magic and Isiah on the team, it's up on Youtube ... Michael Jordan prior to even playing one single NBA game was hands down the best player on the floor for either team. It wasn't even close either.

This is a guy who hasn't even played a single NBA game yet.

The 2001-02 era was certainly a different era, but even there, Jordan was playing at an MVP rate before tearing his meniscus. Was averaging 25 ppg/6/5 and actually getting better and better (29 ppg in his final 10 games or so before the knee injury). Turned the Wizards, one of the worst teams the season prior into a 26-21 team that was on their way to the playoffs.

And this old as dirt 38/39 year old Jordan, who wasn't even given a full summer to work out in because he broke his ribs.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq missed 30 games and finished 9th in the 96 MVP

Duncan was a rookie in 98

Even by your standards, these are terrible examples.


LeBron also didnt lose the MVP to old Shaq in 06 lol


The guy is straight up pulling shit out of his ass

[Bronbron23]

Sorry I dont use old school ppg. Meaning I dont put Iverson and Rick Barry over LBJ and Kareem :lol TRY AGAIN

Of course you dont. Lebron stans cant use the standard measure because when they do they realize bron dosnt stack up so they automatically go to brons longevity and totals which is dumb as hell. But yall trolls already know this deep down. Must be weird being a bron stan:facepalm

[Bronbron23]

Which one is that?

Two 3 peats? Could also throw in ppg which has always been the standard until bron stans came along and realized bron would never stack up so they tried to switch it to totals.

[PeroAntic]

Notice how the responses are insecure "MJ is GOAT" versus responses to the points made in the OP?
:roll:

OP is the definition of insecurity. same old idiotic recycled 'analysis' trying to prove Jordan isn't the GOAT. Sorry, he is. Its the consensus. Boo hoo Lebron isn't, what are we gonna do now? keep whining I suppose. retarded Lebron stans, cancer of basketball fandom. the only thing they manage to do is just make everybody else hate their guy. Im not even MJ stan, but these pathetic attempts to squeeze in Lebron somehow are just making EVERYBODY else hate him.

[AirBonner]

Meltdown

[AirBonner]

90’s has records that show some of the worst teams in history

[HoopsNY]

Who cares. He was the best player in the 80s, which was considered to be the greatest era of all-time.

[AirBonner]

Who cares. He was the best player in the 80s, which was considered to be the greatest era of all-time.

I don’t think he was better than Bird in the 80’s

[Roundball_Rock]

I don’t think he was better than Bird in the 80’s

Or Magic.


1991
Boston: Parish, Gamble, McHale
Detroit: Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer
Milwaukee: Humphries, Robertson, Schayes
Philly: Barkley, Dawkins, Mahorn

1992
Cleveland: Nance, Daugherty, Hot Rod Williams
Boston: Lewis, Pinckney, Parish
New York: Ewing, Jackson, Starks
Detroit: Rodman, Dumars, Thomas

1993
New York: Ewing, Starks, Mason
Cleveland: Daugherty, Nance, Price
Boston: Lewis, Parish, Gamble
Charlotte: Johnson, Mourning, Bogues

1996
Orlando: Penny, Scott, Grant
Indiana: Miller, Jackson, Davis
Cleveland: Brandon, Cage, Mills
New York: Mason, Ewing, Harper

1997
Miami: Hardaway, Mourning, Brown
New York: Ewing, Oakley, Johnson
Atlanta: Blaylock, Laettner, Mutombo
Detroit: Hill, Dumars, Thorpe

1998
Indiana: Miller, Mullin, Jackson
Miami: Hardaway, Brown, Mourning
Charlotte: Rice, Mason, Geiger
Atlanta: Mutombo, Smith, Laettner

No team matched the Bulls. Just look at how much other teams suffered when they lost players compared to the Bulls remaining competitive even without MJ or Pippen. The Cavs went to the lottery without Mark Price (33-49, 30 win pace in the 66 games Price missed). The Magic 45-37 without Shaq. Indiana 39-43 when Jackson was gone most of the year and Smits missed 30 games. New York was up and down even with Ewing. Detroit couldn't get out the first round with Hill--ever--so imagine them without him. And so on.

Ewing never got hurt in his prime but does anyone think the Knicks win even 35 games without him?

[Bronbron23]

I don’t think he was better than Bird in the 80’s

bird thought he was better than bird though it was close. Bird was sick. He had a way bettef team though at the time

[HoopsNY]

I don’t think he was better than Bird in the 80’s

Bird has an obvious head start to Mj given that he came in in the 1979-80 season. But if you were to look at who the best offensive weapon was, best scorer, and best defender, it was MJ during the 80s over Bird and Magic.

I get that Magic and Bird are seen as being the best given they played the entire decade and built up accolades, but their teams were strikingly better with some of the biggest HOF names in NBA history.

I also liken it to Lebron. While Kobe and Duncan were the best players of the decade in the 00s, I think LeBron was arguably the better player than both of them for the majority of the time he played from 2004 onward, though it is probably close between him and Kobe.

This is the case despite the fact that LeBron had zero rings during the 2000s.

[3ball]

Bird has an obvious head start to Mj given that he came in in the 1979-80 season. But if you were to look at who the best offensive weapon was, best scorer, and best defender, it was MJ during the 80s over Bird and Magic.

I get that Magic and Bird are seen as being the best given they played the entire decade and built up accolades, but their teams were strikingly better with some of the biggest HOF names in NBA history.

I also liken it to Lebron. While Kobe and Duncan were the best players of the decade in the 00s, I think LeBron was arguably the better player than both of them for the majority of the time he played from 2004 onward, though it is probably close between him and Kobe.

This is the case despite the fact that LeBron had zero rings during the 2000s.

People forget that the 07' and 11' Finals exposed holes in lebron's GAME... He couldn't post... He couldn't shoot... He didn't know what to do without a live dribble

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that lebron was the best player until he improved these areas in 2012

Lebron was the most talented since he entered the league... But he wasn't the BEST... don't conflate the 2

[Rico2016]

People forget that the 07' and 11' Finals exposed holes in lebron's GAME... He couldn't post... He couldn't shoot... He didn't know what to do without a live dribble

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that lebron was the best player until he improved these areas in 2012

Lebron was the most talented since he entered the league... But he wasn't the BEST... don't conflate the 2

MJ holes were filled in deeply by Pippen. Passing, defense, rebounding, team work, leadership, play making.

[3ball]

MJ holes were filled in deeply by Pippen. Passing, defense, rebounding, team work, leadership, play making.

MJ averaged more assists, got more dpoy votes every year, and nearly doubled Pippen in scoring with 100% clutch load

And mj was the team enforcer, coach (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nFK_q4swYNs&t=20m23s) and leader

Did you watch the doc? Pippen never led

[HoopsNY]

People forget that the 07' and 11' Finals exposed holes in lebron's GAME... He couldn't post... He couldn't shoot... He didn't know what to do without a live dribble

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that lebron was the best player until he improved these areas in 2012

Lebron was the most talented since he entered the league... But he wasn't the BEST... don't conflate the 2

But I wasn't arguing about LeBron's finals performances. And while you're correct about his finals performances, let's not act like Kobe's 2000, 2001, and 2004 NBA finals were stellar. They weren't. I think it's close and I could reason with those who say that LeBron was the best player of the 2000s.

Mj has a similar showing for at least the mid to late 80s. What hurts him is that he came into the league in 1984. But it's quite simple, if you had to start a team using just the players who played most of the 80s, who would you start with? My first pick would be MJ. He was a better offensive player and defensive player than both Magic and Bird.

[HoopsNY]

MJ holes were filled in deeply by Pippen. Passing, defense, rebounding, team work, leadership, play making.

These are just lies at this point.

[3ball]

, let's not act like Kobe's 2000, 2001, and 2004 NBA finals were stellar.



We aren't comparing 07' lebron to 00' Kobe

We're comparing 07' Lebron to 07' Kobe, and Kobe was better at that point - he didn't have any holes and knew how to win - heck, he averaged 33 on 50% against the 08' Spurs after lebron wet the bed in 07'





Mj has a similar showing for at least the mid to late 80s.



MJ never wet the bed like lebron 07' or 11'... Lebron also wet the bed in the 08' ECSF (26 on 35%)

At 22-23 years old......... and against a championship team and #1 defense...... MJ averaged 44 on 50% compared to lebron's 22 on 35% vs Spurs.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ holes were filled in deeply by Pippen. Passing, defense, rebounding, team work, leadership, play making.

Madonna would agree. :lol

On a serious note, the coaches and players on the Bulls all note the breadth and depth of Pippen's responsibilities. These guys only understand PPG. Even the usage talk overstates the matter: Pippen had the workload comparable or greater than some #1 options (e.g., Miller).

Pippen "directed the offense", "quarterbacked the defense" and was the "voice" of the team per Phil Jackson. That is not exactly screaming "sidekick"! :oldlol:

Compare this two other second options. How much were they asked to do for the team? Usually one thing to a high level, maybe a second thing to a solid or good level. That is it.