Is Kawhi Leonard already a bigger playoff legend then Kevin Garnett?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kevin Garnett has just .1 more career playoff VORP over Kawhi despite playing 32 more games.

Kawhi is beating Garnett in playoff career win shares 17.6 to 16.4 despite playing 32 less games.

Kawhi has hit over 20% WS/48 in 3 playoff runs deeper then 1st round to Kevin Garnett's zero times. Kawhi also has a better career playoff WS/48 then either one of Garnett's best playoff runs in 2008 or 2004.

I thought Kevin Garnett was supposed to be this top 10 GOAT? Kawhi already running circles around his playoff career before he hits 29 years old? Wow

[imdaman99]

Easily. The only memorable playoff game KG had was his game 7 against the Kings.

[warriorfan]

Kevin Garnett has just .1 more career playoff VORP over Kawhi despite playing 32 more games.

Kawhi is beating Garnett in playoff career win shares 17.6 to 16.4 despite playing 32 less games.

Kawhi has hit over 20% WS/48 in 3 playoff runs deeper then 1st round to Kevin Garnett's zero times. Kawhi also has a better career playoff WS/48 then either one of Garnett's best playoff runs in 2008 or 2004.

I thought Kevin Garnett was supposed to be this top 10 GOAT? Kawhi already running circles around his playoff career before he hits 29 years old? Wow

VORP is a cumulative stat. More games = more vorp. Leonard had the luxury of being drafted onto a very competitive team that allowed him to have deep playoff runs as soon as he started his career. You have a misunderstanding about a dubious at best advanced statistic and are making an extremely unfair comparison from it. Do more research before you pollute the forum with half baked nonsense.

[LoneyROY7]

Kawhi is a 2-time finals MVP. Yes.

[Axe]

Hey, don't let some renowned philosopher here point out that kawhi has had the benefit of playing for stacked teams in his ongoing career. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Kawhi is a 2-time finals mvp. Obviously yes.

Leonard is a stud but KG got robbed of a FMVP and wasted a huge portion of his career with Minnesota. It’s not that cut and dry.

[SouBeachTalents]

KG obviously had no real notable playoff moments due to being trapped on a shitty Timberwolves team for nearly his entire prime. Kawhi certainly wouldn't be considered a playoff legend if he was the one who spent 12 seasons playing on teams of Minny's caliber.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

VORP is a cumulative stat. More games = more vorp. Leonard had the luxury of being drafted onto a very competitive team that allowed him to have deep playoff runs as soon as he started his career. You have a misunderstanding about a dubious at best advanced statistic and are making an extremely unfair comparison from it. Do more research before you pollute the forum with half baked nonsense.

Garnett is the one with more games, he has 32 more career playoff games then Kawhi.

[Axe]

Garnett is the one with more games, he has 32 more career playoff games then Kawhi.
You do realize kawhi still hasn't reached his 10th season in the league yet.

[LoneyROY7]

Leonard is a stud but KG got robbed of a FMVP and wasted a huge portion of his career with Minnesota. It’s not that cut and dry.

Kawhi's run last year is just something KG has never had. It's hard to overlook.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

KG obviously had no real notable playoff moments due to being trapped on a shitty Timberwolves team for nearly his entire prime. Kawhi certainly wouldn't be considered a playoff legend if he was the one who spent 12 seasons playing on teams of Minny's caliber.

But Kawhi has a 35 game playoff sample size of being a role player in 2012 and 2013. Yet, Kawhi's CAREER WS/48 beats either of KG's best runs in 04 or 08. That's pretty suspect if you're arguing for KG. The playoff advanced stats seem to say Kawhi is on a higher tier.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You do realize kawhi still hasn't reached his 10th season in the league yet.

Exactly and only had .1 less career playoff VORP then KG. The VORP is loving Kawhi and spitting KG away if you compare them.

[light]

Only because of the game winner.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is a 2-time finals MVP. Yes.

Exactly. Kawhi's 2014 finals MVP is similar to KG in 2008. Then kawhi has been clearly a better player four years 2016-present. Higher tier player.

[Axe]

Exactly. Kawhi's 2014 finals MVP is similar to KG in 2008. Then kawhi has been clearly a better player four years 2016-present. Higher tier player.
2016-present kawhi is obviously the better player since kg in that year went to retire already because he's already old af.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Only because of the game winner.

Take away heat ray allen shot, Robert Horry shots, Steve Kerr shots. You can't twist around NBA history to favor your best player. Kawhi didn't need Kerr or Ray Allen to hit the shot, Kawhi did it himself and in a 7 foot monster's face!

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2016-present kawhi is obviously the better player since kg in that year went to retire already because he's already old af.

I mean over any version of prime KG

[Axe]

I mean over any version of prime KG
Oh i see lmao.

But kawhi is held down by the fact that he still needed to undergo load management during the regular season.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Oh i see lmao.

But kawhi is held down by the fact that he still needed to undergo load management during the regular season.

This year its cut to 73 games, so kawhi is at 80% games played if he plays remaining 8 games and is at 59.

2016 - 80%
2017 - 80%
2020 - 80%

3/4 prime years are at 80% of the season. In 2019 he led playoffs in minutes to make up for games missed. So the load management argument is a little overrated. Still, is that KG's only argument right now? Regular season? That's not going to hold up long term at all.

[tpols]

he is but it's not garnett's fault.

if KG played on the spurs he'd have a top 5-10 all time legacy like Duncan does.

If he got to choose team hop after team hop to wherever he pleased? He'd be in top 5 GOAT considerations resume wise.

Kawhi is insane, but his circumstances have all been terrific while garnett's weren't.

[Axe]

This year its cut to 73 games, so kawhi is at 80% games played if he plays remaining 8 games and is at 59.

2016 - 80%
2017 - 80%
2020 - 80%

3/4 prime years are at 80% of the season. In 2019 he led playoffs in minutes to make up for games missed. So the load management argument is a little overrated. Still, is that KG's only argument right now? Regular season? That's not going to hold up long term at all.
In 2019, he only played 60 games with the raptors during the regular season but yes, you're right when he went full force during the playoffs and we all know what happened in that run.

Also i never said kg was better but because he plays in the regular season normally, never missing less than 40 games unless injured, he's just going to have higher stats than kawhi lifetime, from debut to retirement.

[BigShotBob]

he is but it's not garnett's fault.

if KG played on the spurs he'd have a top 5-10 all time legacy like Duncan does.

If he got to choose team hop after team hop to wherever he pleased? He'd be in top 5 GOAT considerations resume wise.

Kawhi is insane, but his circumstances have all been terrific while garnett's weren't.

Are you implying that KG is as good or better than Duncan?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

he is but it's not garnett's fault.

if KG played on the spurs he'd have a top 5-10 all time legacy like Duncan does.

If he got to choose team hop after team hop to wherever he pleased? He'd be in top 5 GOAT considerations resume wise.

Kawhi is insane, but his circumstances have all been terrific while garnett's weren't.

His lengthy playoff when he had talent in 2004 and 2008 should blow you away but they don't do that. 51% TS at his peak, average BPM numbers, not in the 20's on WS/48, no finals MVP. I just don't see KG being better then Kawhi on any team you put him on. KG also deserves blame for wasting himself on bad teams. As soon as Kawhi realized all he had was washed up Parker/Manu he got the hell out of there. KG can learn a thing or two from Kawhi, don't let poor rosters ruin your career.

[StrongLurk]

KG is hard to rank for me, it always seemed like his impact was better than his box score numbers, especially considering his defense.

But, in the playoffs his scoring was usually slightly worse than his regular season numbers.

[HylianNightmare]

Easily

[Gougou]

Yeah for sure... young Kawhi pushed Heat to game 7, then embarrased them next year.

Meanwhile KG struggled against Hawks/Cavs, if he played better on Gasol in 2010 they should win too.

KG earlier career got ruined by Timberwolves tho, his support cast was way worse than Kawhi's team.

[86Celtics]

Stats without context. Garnett spent the best years of his career in a mediocre at best team with an inept front office. Leonard has never been on a bad team. Of course his numbers are far better.

[999Guy]

Yeah for sure... young Kawhi pushed Heat to game 7, then embarrased them next year.

Meanwhile KG struggled against Hawks/Cavs, if he played better on Gasol in 2010 they should win too.

KG earlier career got ruined by Timberwolves tho, his support cast was way worse than Kawhi's team.
Lol young Kawhi didn’t push shit. Kawhi is the most overrated player of the era with that nonsense.

[Jay-B]

Very easy question to answer. Yes he is

[r0drig0lac]

just the game 7 against 76ers would be a moment bigger than the whole playoffs career of guys like KG, Curry, Durant, etc, this is not even a question.

[FireDavidKahn]

Leonard is a stud but KG got robbed of a FMVP and wasted a huge portion of his career with Minnesota. It’s not that cut and dry.

Unfortunately, it actually is. Due to Garnett's incompetent FO he never had a talented enough team to even make it far in the play offs aside from 1 year.

In terms of skill? Obviously closer and a discussion but we are talking about things that have actually happened.

Garnett's career is a tragedy.

[FireDavidKahn]

Are you implying that KG is as good or better than Duncan?

Peak KG was just as good if not better then Duncan.

This is the great what if...If you put Garnett on the Spurs from his rookie year up until he retired he still probably gets the Spurs 5 titles just like Duncan. They obviously wouldn't be the same 5 rings but in the end he'd still get 5.

[Lebowski]

Kevin Garnett the playoff legend. What? You said it just now, who else, ever, said something like that? Maybe KG himself. Kevin Garnett the player, on the other hand...

[Phoenix]

I thought Kevin Garnett was supposed to be this top 10 GOAT?

I've never seem him ranked that high. Seems to be considered somewhere in the top 15-20 nowadays.

[Whoah10115]

Just watching them play, no.

Let's go over this metrics, please. Given the obsession you all have with them, I hope that you at least were/are good students.

[Wally450]

Yes, only because Kawhi got to play on stacked teams.

[Turbo Slayer]

I've never seem him ranked that high. Seems to be considered somewhere in the top 15-20 nowadays. Backpicks ranked Kevin #8.

[HoopsNY]

Take it from someone who watched KG his entire career and was the biggest KG fan in the early 2000s. KG is overrated.

It is true that he had sub-par teams in Minnesota and once had Spreewell and Cassell, he managed to get the WCF. But this translation between him and Tim Duncan couldn't be further from the truth.

KG was a great player in his own right, but he wasn't nearly as good as Duncan was for three reasons.

1- Duncan was the better defensive player
2- Duncan was the better low post player
3- Duncan can take over a 4th quarter while dominating the low block, which opened up the perimeter for his teammates

I love KG. Prior to LeBron, he was the game's most all-around player. But he couldn't takeover a game and was repeatedly criticized for it. And forming a super-team in order to win a title puts an asterisk next to that season, as well as the accomplishments that came with it.

[Uncle Drew]

Yeah for sure... young Kawhi pushed Heat to game 7, then embarrased them next year.

Meanwhile KG struggled against Hawks/Cavs, if he played better on Gasol in 2010 they should win too.

KG earlier career got ruined by Timberwolves tho, his support cast was way worse than Kawhi's team.

Kawhi didn't push shit, lmao. This entire post is a mess.

[Whoah10115]

Take it from someone who watched KG his entire career and was the biggest KG fan in the early 2000s. KG is overrated.

It is true that he had sub-par teams in Minnesota and once had Spreewell and Cassell, he managed to get the WCF. But this translation between him and Tim Duncan couldn't be further from the truth.

KG was a great player in his own right, but he wasn't nearly as good as Duncan was for three reasons.

1- Duncan was the better defensive player
2- Duncan was the better low post player
3- Duncan can take over a 4th quarter while dominating the low block, which opened up the perimeter for his teammates

I love KG. Prior to LeBron, he was the game's most all-around player. But he couldn't takeover a game and was repeatedly criticized for it. And forming a super-team in order to win a title puts an asterisk next to that season, as well as the accomplishments that came with it.

Lol. Duncan is not nearly as good a defensive player aa Garnett, that isn't even a question.

Add to that Garnett was DPOY caliber until his end at Boston. Even remaining an elite defensive center, Duncan wasn't in that tier near the end.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Far as impact goes, Kawhi's 2019 run may or may not be greater than KG's 08 run. Someone can find the data and post that here.

Kawhi's postseason was more impressive though. He was also a MUCH better volume scorer, which is important if you're the go-to guy. Don't know if KG had a better playoff series than Kawhi had against Philly. Maybe one of his series' in 2004? I know he balled out against the Queens.

[tpols]

Are you implying that KG is as good as Duncan?

Yes.

[HoopsNY]

Lol. Duncan is not nearly as good a defensive player aa Garnett, that isn't even a question.

Add to that Garnett was DPOY caliber until his end at Boston. Even remaining an elite defensive center, Duncan wasn't in that tier near the end.

Sorry, this just isn't true. Did you watch Duncan from 1997-2006? One year doesn't define KG as a defender over Duncan. Duncan was, for the better part of their careers, the better defender. Were you watching the NBA for the first 10 years of their career? It's well known how highly regarded TD was defensively.

[tpols]

Take it from someone who watched KG his entire career and was the biggest KG fan in the early 2000s. KG is overrated.

It is true that he had sub-par teams in Minnesota and once had Spreewell and Cassell, he managed to get the WCF. But this translation between him and Tim Duncan couldn't be further from the truth.

KG was a great player in his own right, but he wasn't nearly as good as Duncan was for three reasons.

1- Duncan was the better defensive player
2- Duncan was the better low post player
3- Duncan can take over a 4th quarter while dominating the low block, which opened up the perimeter for his teammates

I love KG. Prior to LeBron, he was the game's most all-around player. But he couldn't takeover a game and was repeatedly criticized for it. And forming a super-team in order to win a title puts an asterisk next to that season, as well as the accomplishments that came with it.

you lost me when you acted like duncan was hands down better on defense. At worst it's a push, at best Garnett was better.

Pop took Duncan out in 2013 on Ray's shot because he thought he was too slow to close out on a 3. That would never happen with KG.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Peak KG was just as good if not better then Duncan.

This is the great what if...If you put Garnett on the Spurs from his rookie year up until he retired he still probably gets the Spurs 5 titles just like Duncan. They obviously wouldn't be the same 5 rings but in the end he'd still get 5.

Gonna give Duncan the benefit of the doubt, but Ticket would flourish in SA.

He had the mental, skills and loyalty to be great under Popovich. For the city and franchise even.

[HoopsNY]

you lost me when you acted like duncan was hands down better on defense. At worst it's a push, at best Garnett was better.

Pop took Duncan out in 2013 on Ray's shot because he thought he was too slow to close out on a 3. That would never happen with KG.

So year 16 of Duncan's entire career is a defining line where his defense was concerned? Duncan was a PF/C for all of his career. His ability to defend in the low block was more crucial than KG's ability to spread the floor defensively. These guys started playing in 1996 and 1997, respectively. Their careers didn't start post 2007.

We're forgetting the style of play of the league in the late 90s and early 2000s. The league wasn't a run and gun or three point friendly league then.

[tpols]

So year 16 of Duncan's entire career is a defining line where his defense was concerned? Duncan was a PF/C for all of his career. His ability to defend in the low block was more crucial than KG's ability to spread the floor defensively. These guys started playing in 1996 and 1997, respectively. Their careers didn't start post 2007.

We're forgetting the style of play of the league in the late 90s and early 2000s. The league wasn't a run and gun or three point friendly league then.

KG guarded the paint too and won his DPOY when the style of play wasnt run and gun.

He was also the bonafide stud anchor to Boston's defenses a few of which were all time great.

all the defensive impact numbers for the 2000s decade point to Garnett at the top. DRPM which is adjusted defensive +/-.

[HoopsNY]

KG guarded the paint too and won his DPOY when the style of play wasnt run and gun.

He was also the bonafide stud anchor to Boston's defenses a few of which were all time great.

all the defensive impact numbers for the 2000s decade point to Garnett at the top. DRPM which is adjusted defensive +/-.

Sorry, but Tim Duncan's defensive impact was way more crucial in an era that had low-post players like Malone, Shaq, Rasheed Wallace, KG, McDyess, Jermaine O'Neal etc. Again, if you watched the league between 1997-2007, you would know how impactful Duncan was down in the low block. And that level of defensive play was more critical to success than KG's ability to step outside the paint.

What everyone is hinging KG's supposed "being better" defensively on is the fact that he won DPOY on a super-team that won the NBA finals in 2007-08. That doesn't cut it. I think most people on this forum either never watched both players (from 1996 onward) or are using that super-team between 2007-09 as a rubric for putting KG over Duncan, while ignoring the first 10 years of their careers.

[Whoah10115]

Sorry, this just isn't true. Did you watch Duncan from 1997-2006? One year doesn't define KG as a defender over Duncan. Duncan was, for the better part of their careers, the better defender. Were you watching the NBA for the first 10 years of their career? It's well known how highly regarded TD was defensively.

What is simply not true is that Duncan was considered a better defender than KG. That is factually inaccurate. Even in DPOY, Garnett finished ahead of Duncan every year from 99-00 to 03-04, and only failed to continue that because his team were so poor.

It was approaching near consensus, and that much is not debatable.

David Robinson was a better defender than Duncan every season they played together, until the last one. You can argue the year prior, as well.

Duncan's defensive peak ended once Robinson left. That's maybe a little misleading, as Duncan started dealing with some injuries the next season, and after 03-04 was no longer in his prime. And he wasn't, you can watch him the next season as he began focusing less in the regular season, and in the playoffs was not only aided by the growth of his two guards, but he had to work much harder to get what used to come easier for him. Also true is the offense was more stunted when going thru him than it was before. It was more evident on the defensive side, as he persisted with being played at PF rather than at C, despite no exceptional C coming to the Spurs, tho they took Nesterovic from KG and the Timberwolves. Duncan would have been better off at C. Even so, when he was shifted to C he had some issues getting called for fouls and his lateral movement wasn't the same.

KG was like Pippen and, like Pippen, did it all on defense, and the idea that Duncan was defending on the block and KG was not, is flat out untrue. Garnett defended in three positions. He anchored the entire defense, from perimeter in. He guarded the post but protected the rim, despite doing everything else.

Duncan was never considered a better defender. Duncan was well regarded, sure. He's one of the best defenders ever, but not as good or as revered as KG. What Garnett did in Boston he did every year in Minnesota, except he had a great team. Also did it despite the just film the script and play it safe at every turn approach by Doc.

[BigShotBob]

Yes.

So KG could have done what Duncan did in '03?

[Uncle Drew]

Lol. Duncan is not nearly as good a defensive player aa Garnett, that isn't even a question.

Add to that Garnett was DPOY caliber until his end at Boston. Even remaining an elite defensive center, Duncan wasn't in that tier near the end.

:oldlol:

How do you people come up with this stuff?

[Whoah10115]

:oldlol:

How do you people come up with this stuff?

You watched basketball then?

Don't think so.

[LoneyROY7]

Lol. Duncan is not nearly as good a defensive player aa Garnett, that isn't even a question.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

What an atrocious take. Holy shit.

[Whoah10115]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

What an atrocious take. Holy shit.

I just don't get the fact you think I'm playing the contrarian's side here.

Yeah. KG was considered a better defender. The difference came down to Duncan being both a better post player and more reliable scorer. Rebounding they were in the same tier, tho Garnett led the league four seasons in a row. Duncan had him other years and was consistent in his rebounding numbers.

KG was Mr. All Around but Duncan had the scoring and simply was getting it done. Some said KG wasn't clutch and Duncan was, harder to build around.

But people weren't picking Duncan ahead of Garnett as a defender. You wanna go and say they were wrong, so be it, but that was the take.

And yeah, Garnett is a better defender.

[tpols]

So KG could have done what Duncan did in '03?

'08 duncan couldnt do what '08 KG did... and duncan wouldnt win jack with minnesota either.

the spurs are perenially successful because elite coaching and organization.

can go tit for tat all day on it, but they are very similar impact and profile players.

[BigShotBob]

'08 duncan couldnt do what '08 KG did... and duncan wouldnt win jack with minnesota either.

the spurs are perenially successful because elite coaching and organization.

can go tit for tat all day on it, but they are very similar impact and profile players.

Wait, wait, wait.

So Duncan wouldn't be able to win with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

And that carry job Duncan did in '03 was carrying a "Minnesota" like roster.

Which, during that same year, KG was too busy getting torched by Dirk btw.

[Uncle Drew]

You watched basketball then?

Don't think so.

Not even Kevin Garnett would say that about Kevin Garnett.

[Whoah10115]

Not even Kevin Garnett would say that about Kevin Garnett.

Because he leaves it up to most?

[Uncle Drew]

Because he leaves it up to most?

He leaves it up to retards is a more accurate statement.

[Whoah10115]

He leaves it up to retards is a more accurate statement.

Well, most people are stupid, so I guess there's truth in that.

[warriorfan]

I see KG as a slightly better defender and passer but Duncan being a better go to scorer.

[HoopsNY]

What is simply not true is that Duncan was considered a better defender than KG. That is factually inaccurate. Even in DPOY, Garnett finished ahead of Duncan every year from 99-00 to 03-04, and only failed to continue that because his team were so poor.

That's funny, because Duncan had an over the hill Robinson after 2000. I'm not saying KG's supporting cast was better, but you're making guys like Smith, Nesterovic, Brandon, Billups, Spreewell, and Cassell out to be nobodies.

They weren't the best in the business, but 2000-2004 San Antonio didn't have all-star Ginobili, Parker, and Kawhi, either. Duncan won the title in 2003 almost single handedly.

As for Defensive Player of the Year:

1998: Duncan (5th), KG (11th)
1999: Duncan (5th), KG (7th)
2000: KG (7th), Duncan (No votes)
2001: KG (2nd), Duncan (3rd)
2002: KG (2nd), Duncan (No votes)
2003: KG (3rd), Duncan (4th)
2004: KG (6th), Duncan (7th)
2005: Duncan (4th), KG (9th)
2006: Duncan (6th), KG (13th)
2007: Duncan (3rd), KG (13th)
2008: KG (1st), Duncan (9th)
2009: KG (8th), Duncan (11th)
2010: Duncan (14th), KG (No votes)
2011: KG (2nd), Duncan (17th)
2012: KG (5th), Duncan (No votes)
2013: Duncan (6th), KG (No votes)
2014: Duncan (14th), KG (No votes)
2015: Duncan (8th), KG (No votes)

They are tied 9-9 for their respective careers.


It was approaching near consensus, and that much is not debatable.

According to who? I was around back then and it was quite the opposite, actually. Maybe you saw different interviews, analysis, videos back then, but I recall Duncan being regarded as the best defensive player after Ben Wallace and earlier on in his career, after Zo and Mutombo.


KG was like Pippen and, like Pippen, did it all on defense, and the idea that Duncan was defending on the block and KG was not, is flat out untrue. Garnett defended in three positions. He anchored the entire defense, from perimeter in. He guarded the post but protected the rim, despite doing everything else.

Sure, but even Pippen wasn't the best defensive player on his own team, Mj was.

Again, I do agree that KG was the more versatile defender. There is no denying that. But what Duncan was able to do as a low-post defender was more important and better than what KG could do in the post.

Given 1997-2007, particularly from 1997-2005, the NBA worked through the post and even perimeter players were more slashers than spot up shooters (Iverson, Kobe, Francis, Mj, Pippen, Hill, Penny, Davis, Tmac, Vince, etc), Duncan's defensive impact was greater and more pivotal than KG's.

[HoopsNY]

I see KG as a slightly better defender and passer but Duncan being a better go to scorer.

Sure, but only because you probably remember KG more from 2007 onward. People are neglecting Duncan's defense for his first ten years of his career and why it was more impactful on the floor than KG's. Just ask Shaq and watch the 1999 playoffs or the 2003 playoffs, and you'll see why.

Duncan beat Shaq+Kobe almost single handedly. KG took them to 7 games with Spreewell+Cassell.

[tpols]

Wait, wait, wait.

So Duncan wouldn't be able to win with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

And that carry job Duncan did in '03 was carrying a "Minnesota" like roster.

Which, during that same year, KG was too busy getting torched by Dirk btw.


Duncan's 03 is vastly overrated.

They finally beat the Lakers after they were worn out from a 3peat. All good things eventually come to an end...

Then they beat a dirk-less mavs (free win) and a NJ Nets team that was even less talented than themselves.

There are many players that couldve won a ring given those favorable circumstances.

KG would be ringing like crazy playing for the spurs with robinson, manu, parker, kawhi, and pop.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan's 03 is vastly overrated.

They finally beat the Lakers after they were worn out from a 3peat. All good things eventually come to an end...

Then they beat a dirk-less mavs (free win) and a NJ Nets team that was even less talented than themselves.

There are many players that couldve won a ring given those favorable circumstances.

KG would be ringing like crazy playing for the spurs with robinson, manu, parker, kawhi, and pop.

I agree 03 Duncan is overrated. Lakers were so dysfunctional in 03 season that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it (last dance). Kobe was jacking up like 65 more shots then Shaq that series.

After that, he faced Mavs with no dirk and the worst defensive backcourt in NBA history Nash/Finley.

In the finals he faced another one man team in Nets.

[Whoah10115]

That's funny, because Duncan had an over the hill Robinson after 2000. I'm not saying KG's supporting cast was better, but you're making guys like Smith, Nesterovic, Brandon, Billups, Spreewell, and Cassell out to be nobodies.

They weren't the best in the business, but 2000-2004 San Antonio didn't have all-star Ginobili, Parker, and Kawhi, either. Duncan won the title in 2003 almost single handedly.

According to who? I was around back then and it was quite the opposite, actually. Maybe you saw different interviews, analysis, videos back then, but I recall Duncan being regarded as the best defensive player after Ben Wallace and earlier on in his career, after Zo and Mutombo.



Sure, but even Pippen wasn't the best defensive player on his own team, Mj was.

Again, I do agree that KG was the more versatile defender. There is no denying that. But what Duncan was able to do as a low-post defender was more important and better than what KG could do in the post.

Given 1997-2007, particularly from 1997-2005, the NBA worked through the post and even perimeter players were more slashers than spot up shooters (Iverson, Kobe, Francis, Mj, Pippen, Hill, Penny, Davis, Tmac, Vince, etc), Duncan's defensive impact was greater and more pivotal than KG's.

We're disagreeing on two different things. One is regarding who is the better defender. You're wrong but that's ok.

The other is how they were regarded. Garnett was considered the better defender.

Obviously Tpols is crazy to call Duncan's 03 run overrated, crazier because he said vastly. But Duncan's Spurs were much better than Garnett's Timberwolves. That's not a real thing. Ginobili was an impact player, tho not an all-star. At the same time Popovich underused him. Parker was legit. Bowen a great defender and was leading the league on 3pt%. Robinson was still a great defensive player. Rose and the Claxton and their bench. Can't compare the two teams.

Duncan was the surprise MVP in 03. Most expected Garnett to win. That's an actual fact.

Cassell was not a good defender, and more importantly wasn't on the 03 team. Nesterovic was and was good, but was ok and much less in San Antonio.

Pippen and MJ are tossups on defense. That's also true. And doesn't apply to this.

Robinson was still an elite defender in his second to last year, and a great one in his last. But for sure he was a better defender than Duncan in Duncan's first four years.

And post defense is not, in theory, as -much less more- important than anchoring a defense. And KG did more of that. Not only versatility, but he defended more interior space than Duncan. If you look at it at the surface, Duncan played in a twin towers setup and that's easier. If you look beyond that, that doesn't tell the story of Duncan the defensive player. But versatility doesn't begin to tell the story of Garnett the defensive player.

[BigShotBob]

Duncan's 03 is vastly overrated.

They finally beat the Lakers after they were worn out from a 3peat. All good things eventually come to an end...

Then they beat a dirk-less mavs (free win) and a NJ Nets team that was even less talented than themselves.

There are many players that couldve won a ring given those favorable circumstances.

KG would be ringing like crazy playing for the spurs with robinson, manu, parker, kawhi, and pop.

Dirk was there for 3 games and the Spurs were 2-1 in those games. At best you're implying that Dirk could have pushed it to 7.

Regardless I think Dirk is better than KG, but that Dirk isn't better than Duncan.

In '03 let's be real - it was mainly Duncan doing the heavy lifting with contributions here and there. TP and Manu didn't come into their own until maybe '05, but more like '07 but by that time Duncan was approaching his decline anyways much like KG.

KG had a resurgence after his trade to Boston but if Duncan was traded to Boston with two other all-stars (something Duncan's never had btw) I think that's a pretty favorable circumstance for him to win it all.

[Whoah10115]

Also, adding up their DPOY voting records doesn't add nuch. I was specific about primes, and no doubt Duncan was out of his after 2004 (but will give you till 05 if you want). Garnett finished above him every year.

[Carbine]

I'm not sure how '03 Duncan is overrated. His #2 and #3 options were offense only players who put up 14.7 ppg on 40 percent and 13.6 on 41 percent.

That second option was getting benched for Speedy Claxton by the way in big moments.

Saying there are many players who could win a ring with this is head scratching, considering maybe 1-2 possibly 3 players have ever done that.

[Carbine]

Also, Garnett is for sure a great defensive player.

His impact is probably overstated here though. From when he became the best player on the Wolves to when he left they were

17th ppg, 15th rating
25th, 23rd
16th, 11th
11th, 12th
14th, 16th
16th, 15th
18th, 16th
7th, 6th
9th, 15th
8th, 10th
19th, 21st

He never anchored a top 5 defense in Minnesota, let that sink in. Many tears they were middle of the pack.

[HoopsNY]

Duncan's 03 is vastly overrated.

They finally beat the Lakers after they were worn out from a 3peat. All good things eventually come to an end...

Then they beat a dirk-less mavs (free win) and a NJ Nets team that was even less talented than themselves.

There are many players that couldve won a ring given those favorable circumstances.

KG would be ringing like crazy playing for the spurs with robinson, manu, parker, kawhi, and pop.

Vastly overrated? How many players in NBA history did what he did? And ironically, the Lakers lost to the Spurs, but beat KG's T-Wolves.

KG was known to not take over 4th quarters and often disappeared in elimination games. In game 6 against LA, he put up only 18 points on 9-21 shooting. He was my favorite player of the 2000s. This was what KG was known for.

Duncan and co defeated a Pheonix team that had Marion-Stoudemire-Penny-Marbury-Joe Johnson. They beat a Laker team that had Kobe and Shaq putting up nearly a combined 60 points a game in that series.

Sure the Mavs lost Dirk, but as others mentioned, Dirk played the first 3 games and the Mavs were 2-1. They won the first game and lost the next two. Momentum clearly favored San Antonio.

i don't think KG could have won rings like Duncan did. He wasn't the same low-post defender, which was crucial when dealing with players like Shaq, and KG couldn't dominate a 4th quarter or the low-post the way Duncan could.

[Whoah10115]

KG could win rings in San Antonio. Not the first, given Duncan was better then, and not the second, given Robinson's health and Duncan's run (one never assumes a run like that).

But would he be out in the 1st round in 00 with that Spjrs team? I think he wins in 04 with the Spurs. He definitely wins in 05. And in 06 I don't know, but 06 KG is better than 06 Duncan.

07 is rough because it was scandalous what the NBA did with the Suns. There's no room to argue it, especially given the Spurs themselves got away with it 4 years earlier.

Duncan had a bit of a return to form in 07, and people argued for DPOY for Duncan because there was no other singular choice. But KG was still a better player at that point.

[HoopsNY]

We're disagreeing on two different things. One is regarding who is the better defender. You're wrong but that's ok.

The other is how they were regarded. Garnett was considered the better defender.

By who? I remember it very differently. I'm 34 and was fully engulfed in watching the NBA then. Sure, KG is up there, but I'm looking at a larger sample size here, not individual years.


Obviously Tpols is crazy to call Duncan's 03 run overrated, crazier because he said vastly. But Duncan's Spurs were much better than Garnett's Timberwolves. That's not a real thing. Ginobili was an impact player, tho not an all-star. At the same time Popovich underused him. Parker was legit. Bowen a great defender and was leading the league on 3pt%. Robinson was still a great defensive player. Rose and the Claxton and their bench. Can't compare the two teams.

I didn't compare them. You did. I merely mentioned that those years weren't garbage years with a poor team. He had a supporting cast which was still good.


Duncan was the surprise MVP in 03. Most expected Garnett to win. That's an actual fact.

I do remember a lot of talk about KG potentially winning. So you might be right about that.


Robinson was still an elite defender in his second to last year, and a great one in his last. But for sure he was a better defender than Duncan in Duncan's first four years.

And post defense is not, in theory, as -much less more- important than anchoring a defense. And KG did more of that. Not only versatility, but he defended more interior space than Duncan. If you look at it at the surface, Duncan played in a twin towers setup and that's easier. If you look beyond that, that doesn't tell the story of Duncan the defensive player. But versatility doesn't begin to tell the story of Garnett the defensive player.

The problem with this assertion is that Duncan ultimately benefited from Robinson's defense and not the other way around. Consider that for a moment.

[HoopsNY]

KG could win rings in San Antonio. Not the first, given Duncan was better then, and not the second, given Robinson's health and Duncan's run (one never assumes a run like that).

But would he be out in the 1st round in 00 with that Spjrs team? I think he wins in 04 with the Spurs. He definitely wins in 05. And in 06 I don't know, but 06 KG is better than 06 Duncan.

07 is rough because it was scandalous what the NBA did with the Suns. There's no room to argue it, especially given the Spurs themselves got away with it 4 years earlier.

Duncan had a bit of a return to form in 07, and people argued for DPOY for Duncan because there was no other singular choice. But KG was still a better player at that point.

Remember that Duncan didn't play in the 2000 playoffs. He got injured towards the end of the season and missed the series against Phoenix. KG was a notorious 1st round exit for much of his early career. Being alone in that 2000 Spurs team would have been no different. He simply wasn't the better player.

It sounds like you're shifting gears and trying to say that KG was in fact the better player than Duncan.

[r0drig0lac]

Duncan's 03 is vastly overrated.

They finally beat the Lakers after they were worn out from a 3peat. All good things eventually come to an end...

Then they beat a dirk-less mavs (free win) and a NJ Nets team that was even less talented than themselves.

There are many players that couldve won a ring given those favorable circumstances.

KG would be ringing like crazy playing for the spurs with robinson, manu, parker, kawhi, and pop.

funny

[HoopsNY]

Vastly overrated? How many players in NBA history did what he did? And ironically, the Lakers lost to the Spurs, but beat KG's T-Wolves.

KG was known to not take over 4th quarters and often disappeared in elimination games. In game 6 against LA, he put up only 18 points on 9-21 shooting. He was my favorite player of the 2000s. This was what KG was known for.

Duncan and co defeated a Pheonix team that had Marion-Stoudemire-Penny-Marbury-Joe Johnson. They beat a Laker team that had Kobe and Shaq putting up nearly a combined 60 points a game in that series.

Sure the Mavs lost Dirk, but as others mentioned, Dirk played the first 3 games and the Mavs were 2-1. They won the first game and lost the next two. Momentum clearly favored San Antonio.

i don't think KG could have won rings like Duncan did. He wasn't the same low-post defender, which was crucial when dealing with players like Shaq, and KG couldn't dominate a 4th quarter or the low-post the way Duncan could.

The Mavs were 1-2*

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I'm not sure how '03 Duncan is overrated. His #2 and #3 options were offense only players who put up 14.7 ppg on 40 percent and 13.6 on 41 percent.

That second option was getting benched for Speedy Claxton by the way in big moments.

Saying there are many players who could win a ring with this is head scratching, considering maybe 1-2 possibly 3 players have ever done that.

Everything outside of the Lakers series is overrated. Even Lakers series, that was when Kobe started raping and thinking he's better then Shaq (see Phil Jackson last dance book).

2003 mavs leaders in minutes during that 03 series: Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Axel

That's like the worst defense in NBA history.

Stephen Jackson also had a higher GmSc then Steve Nash during the series. No Dirk for half the series. So all Duncan had to do was outplay Michael Finley pretty much hahaha

[BigShotBob]

Everything outside of the Lakers series is overrated. Even Lakers series, that was when Kobe started raping and thinking he's better then Shaq (see Phil Jackson last dance book).

2003 mavs leaders in minutes during that 03 series: Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Axel

That's like the worst defense in NBA history.

Stephen Jackson also had a higher GmSc then Steve Nash during the series. No Dirk for half the series. So all Duncan had to do was outplay Michael Finley pretty much hahaha

Didn't Michael Finley single-handedly keep the Mavs alive in Game 5 with a 30+ point explosion? Duncan dropped 40 that game iirc and his team still lost. He also dropped 20+ points in all but one game iirc.

Why are we acting like Michael Finley was a bum. Let's not reshape history.

By the way TP was benched repeatedly for Speedy Claxton. Dude had 7 points in an entire game and played like fifteen minutes. Steve Kerr outplayed him in Game 6 to send the Mavs home.

[Clippersfan86]

Playoff wise, Kawhi already has the better resume obviously. In general, he's got a long way to go to catch KG as a career. KG had a 12-13 year run having a superstar level impact when you factor in his defense and playmaking especially. Their peak is similar, but Kawhi being an elite 2 way wing makes him superior in the playoffs IMO.

[Whoah10115]

Remember that Duncan didn't play in the 2000 playoffs. He got injured towards the end of the season and missed the series against Phoenix. KG was a notorious 1st round exit for much of his early career. Being alone in that 2000 Spurs team would have been no different. He simply wasn't the better player.

It sounds like you're shifting gears and trying to say that KG was in fact the better player than Duncan.

You're right about that.

I'm not arguing that. I got caught up in a few different posts and was mostly contextualizing the general comparison.

All in all you arguing for Duncan being better is fine. I mostly got caught up in it because you stated it as fact, when it's generally not considered as so, and didn't explain it. And obviously I disagree.

We're the same age, so I was there too. But generally speaking KG was more highly regarded there. Winning will make a big difference in comparing.

As far as Robinson, I'm not holding it against Duncan. But in Robinson being as good as he was, it creates an opportunity to compare.

[Gougou]

I just want to add something for my earlier post.

Spurs was beating the Heat playing as a team, we know that in 2014, Kawhi didn't carry the Spurs in offense but his defensive presence was still very important to the Spurs in order to win.

[light]

I just want to add something for my earlier post.

Spurs was beating the Heat playing as a team, we know that in 2014, Kawhi didn't carry the Spurs in offense but his defensive presence was still very important to the Spurs in order to win.

Nah. Kawhi was mostly irrelevant. He won Finals MVP by default - being the best choice out of the weak cases made on the Spurs.

San Antonio won because of this:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-10-at-3.34.41-PM.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-10-at-3.33.42-PM.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Wallace-LeBron-Wade.png

[Axe]

Nah. Kawhi was mostly irrelevant. He won Finals MVP by default - being the best choice out of the weak cases made on the Spurs.

San Antonio won because of this:

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-10-at-3.34.41-PM.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2020-06-10-at-3.33.42-PM.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Wallace-LeBron-Wade.png
One word: reasons