Only MJ beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring & efficiency from sidekick?

[3ball]

Do I have that right?... MJ is the only player ever with carry-jobs against good teams?

[3ball]

.
Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team.. Otoh, MJ beat 5 good teams with 16 on 34-42% from Pippen, so he routinely had carry-jobs against good teams

Secondly, Pippen played poorly in every close series or series loss - aka his poor play was the primary reason that any series was close or lost.. We blame Lebron's teammates whenever Lebron loses, so why not blame Pippen when MJ lost?.... Pippen laid a lot of eggs

For example, Pippen's migraine and 16 on 42% cost the Bulls the 90' ECF.. And the 92' ecsf went 7 games because Pippen's 16 on 41% was demolished by X-man's 19 on 50%.. Or the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, and 98' ECF were close because Pippen wet the bed with 16 on 40% each time.. he also lost the 95' ecsf with 19 on 40%, and also the 94 ecsf with poor stats and multiple legendary chokes

The only close series that Pippen didn't play poorly in is the 92' Finals, 93' ECF, and possibly the 97' Finals.

[light]

Do I have that right?... MJ is the only player ever with carry-jobs against good teams?

No, Pippen was running the offense and carrying MJ on the defensive end. Remember, MJ was the scorer and Pippen was the floor general and defensive leader.

[KobesFinger]

Shaq 2000

Lakers beat Portland (#2 SRS), Phoenix (#4), Indiana (#6) and Sacramento (#7).

In the Finals, he averaged 38/17/3/1/3 on 61 FG%. Second was Kobe with 16/4/4 on 39%.

Duncan 2003

San Antonio beat Dallas (#1 SRS) and New Jersey (#4)

In the Finals he averaged 24/17/5/1/5 on 50 FG%, the second leading scorer Tony Parker averaged 13/3/4 on 39%

Just some examples

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Apparently Jordan also won with a choke artist...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481066-Decline-amp-Fall-Malone-and-Stockton-s-Efficiency-in-the-Playoffs&p=14024904&posted=1#post14024904

You might enjoy that one, 3ball. Have at it :lol

[StrongLurk]

Shaq 2000

Lakers beat Portland (#2 SRS), Phoenix (#4), Indiana (#6) and Sacramento (#7).

In the Finals, he averaged 38/17/3/1/3 on 61 FG%. Second was Kobe with 16/4/4 on 39%.

Duncan 2003

San Antonio beat Dallas (#1 SRS) and New Jersey (#4)

In the Finals he averaged 24/17/5/1/5 on 50 FG%, the second leading scorer Tony Parker averaged 13/3/4 on 39%

Just some examples

:bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

No, Pippen was running the offense and carrying MJ on the defensive end. Remember, MJ was the scorer and Pippen was the floor general and defensive leader.

Which is why the offense sucked more without Pippen than without MJ. Real offensive rating (rOTG):

Bulls rOTG in 93': +5 (rough)
Bulls rOTG in 94' with Pippen: +2.2 (exact #)
Bulls rOTG in 94' w/out Pippen: -2.6 (exact #)

Bulls rOTG in 95' w/out MJ: +1.2 (exact #)
Bulls rOTG in 95' with MJ: +4.3 (exact #)

Bulls rOTG in 98' w/out Pippen: +1.2 (rough)
Bulls rOTG in 98' with Pippen: +6.2 (rough)

The net changes speak for themselves. Pippen was worth +5 both times. Jordan's loss cost them -3, his return was worth +3.

These come from a chart in the Pippen profile at https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/ or the MJ profile. Where exact figures are mentioned in the article, they are used.

[Axe]

Shaq 2000

Lakers beat Portland (#2 SRS), Phoenix (#4), Indiana (#6) and Sacramento (#7).

In the Finals, he averaged 38/17/3/1/3 on 61 FG%. Second was Kobe with 16/4/4 on 39%.

Duncan 2003

San Antonio beat Dallas (#1 SRS) and New Jersey (#4)

In the Finals he averaged 24/17/5/1/5 on 50 FG%, the second leading scorer Tony Parker averaged 13/3/4 on 39%

Just some examples
Damn, i guess i seem to understand a bit now why kobe is not being talked about in the goat convo.

[3ball]

FireDavidKahn,

Show me where anyone other than jordan's 2nd option got 18/8 on 66% ts

JR was the 4th or 5th best player, yet he was capable of good 2nd option performance - jordan didn't have anyone other than Pippen to get 18 on 66% - heck, even Pippen can't do that

And JR nearly matched Atlanta's top gamescore (14.9), while Mosgov and Tristan would've been 2nd on the Hawks.. you just have your head in the sand, but it's obvious fact.. lebron played like iverson in 2015 so he got an Iverson result - he can't score efficiently at high jumpshot volume, so he couldn't win at Jordan's volume or possession usage

[light]

Phil Jackson, The Last Season, pg. 45:


"Most disconcerting was our performance on the defensive end, which, as the cliche goes, in basketball as in football, decides who wins championships.

For all of Michael Jordan's acrobatic exploits and fierce leadership, we prevailed in Chicago because we shut down opponents for prolonged stretches, especially in the fourth quarter. Our quarterback on defense was Scottie Pippen.

'Go get him, Luc,' he'd yell to center Luc Longley. 'Bring some help.' All I needed to do was whistle, and Scottie would know instinctively how our defense should react. On the occasions when I signaled a player toward the bench to ask why he suddenly changed his defensive position, the standard reply was: 'Scottie sent me.'"

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

Fact: The Bulls won with defense.
Fact: Pippen was the Bulls defensive leader.
Fact: Pippen carried the Bulls defensively.
Fact: No Pip no chip.

[3ball]

Phil Jackson, The Last Season, pg. 45:



https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

Fact: The Bulls won with defense.
Fact: Pippen was the Bulls defensive leader.
Fact: Pippen carried the Bulls defensively.
Fact: No Pip no chip.

people occasionally called Pippen the defensive leader because they couldn't compliment him on offense, so it was like "we'll give him the little shitty defensive credit, no one cares about that"... It was really an insult.. a back-handed slap

But MJ has just as many people (including Phil) saying he was the defensive leader, and MJ got more dpoy votes every year.. so the consensus around the league was that mj was the defensive leader... Mj was dpoy while Pippen never reached that level.. and miss taught pip everything pip knew

[Axe]

Dude, quit on downplaying pippen's defensive impact for their team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Phil Jackson, The Last Season, pg. 45:



https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

Fact: The Bulls won with defense.
Fact: Pippen was the Bulls defensive leader.
Fact: Pippen carried the Bulls defensively.
Fact: No Pip no chip.

Jackson on Pippen: "quarterback of our defense", "directed our offense", "Scottie was our (the team's) voice."

So what exactly did Pippen not do? :lol

[light]

FireDavidKahn,

Show me where anyone other than jordan's 2nd option got 18/8 on 66% ts

JR was the 4th or 5th best player, yet he was capable of good 2nd option performance - jordan didn't have anyone other than Pippen to get 18 on 66% - heck, even Pippen can't do that

And JR nearly matched Atlanta's top gamescore (14.9), while Mosgov and Tristan would've been 2nd on the Hawks.. you just have your head in the sand, but it's obvious fact.. lebron played like iverson in 2015 so he got an Iverson result - he can't score efficiently at high jumpshot volume, so he couldn't win at Jordan's volume or possession usage

Pippen and Grant/Rodman were never injured so how can anyone show you where someone stepped up for them if they were never out?

In the Hawks series Kevin Love missed the whole thing and Kyrie Irving missed two games. The Cavs needed someone to step up and JR Smith answered the call for at least Game 1, where he scored 28 on 63% shooting, but in the other 3 games he only averaged 15 ppg on 44%. And he didn't play a lick of defense.

That is what you're getting an erection over.

But had Pippen been injured for significant time there is no doubt that Toni Kukoc would've stepped up to fill that void at SF, at least offensively.

Kukoc was so good as a 3rd scoring option that he was winning Finals games by himself, while playing alongside Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. He was so good as a 3rd scoring option that Phil Jackson ran game winning plays in the NBA Finals FOR Toni Kukoc OVER Michael Jordan.

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

Reality check: If Jordan was without Grant/Rodman for an entire series he would've lost regardless of what Pippen or Kukoc did.

The Cavs didn't miss a beat without Love because LeBron averaged 11 rebounds per game (30/11/9 in that series) and filled the void left by Love - something Jordan couldn't do if he lost his Power Forward.

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

.



Pippen and Grant/Rodman were never injured so how can anyone show you where someone stepped up for them if they were never out?




We can just see how Pippen played as 2nd option, and it's clear that JR's play was better than 95% of Pippen's series.. Pippen never shot anywhere near 66% true shooting, and 18/8 is above his career averages of 17/7.





Reality check: If Jordan was without Grant/Rodman for an entire series he would've lost regardless of what Pippen or Kukoc did.



Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 Playoffs, so jordan won that ring with a replacement-level PF

The following season, Rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs (4/8 in the Finals)...

And the only reason MJ didn't win in 1995 was because Pippen was horrible against Orlando (19 on 40%) - lebron has never been blamed when his sidekick did that.





The Cavs didn't miss a beat without Love because LeBron averaged 11 rebounds per game (30/11/9 in that series) and filled the void left by Love




Lebron had 2 other great reblunders in Tristan and Mosgov that averaged 12/11 and 11/8, so lebron had more good rebounder than mj ever had

The reality is that lebron shot 43% because he couldn't handle the volume and possession usage that mj had





- something Jordan couldn't do if he lost his Power Forward.




Actually, rodman only averaged 8.3 rebounds in the 97' Playoffs, so jordan stepped up and averaged 8 rebounds for those Playoffs (more than pip)... He averaged more rebounds than Pippen when rodman was MIA... He led bulls in ppg, apg, spg, and nearly rpg and bpg

[Rico2016]

Phil Jackson, The Last Season, pg. 45:



https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif



Fact: The Bulls won with defense.
Fact: Pippen was the Bulls defensive leader.
Fact: Pippen carried the Bulls defensively.
Fact: No Pip no chip.

Shut it down

[KobesFinger]

.
Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team.. Otoh, MJ beat 5 good teams with 16 on 34-42% from Pippen, so he routinely had carry-jobs against good teams

Secondly, Pippen played poorly in every close series or series loss - aka his poor play was the primary reason that any series was close or lost.. We blame Lebron's teammates whenever Lebron loses, so why not blame Pippen when MJ lost?.... Pippen laid a lot of eggs

For example, Pippen's migraine and 16 on 42% cost the Bulls the 90' ECF.. And the 92' ecsf went 7 games because Pippen's 16 on 41% was demolished by X-man's 19 on 50%.. Or the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, and 98' ECF were close because Pippen wet the bed with 16 on 40% each time.. he also lost the 95' ecsf with 19 on 40%, and also the 94 ecsf with poor stats and multiple legendary chokes

The only close series that Pippen didn't play poorly in is the 92' Finals, 93' ECF, and possibly the 97' Finals.

You haven't refuted my point about Shaq and Duncan yet.

Which 5 teams are you talking about?

[Rico2016]

You haven't refuted my point about Shaq and Duncan yet.

Which 5 teams are you talking about?

He is banned now :( May be a while before he comes back but luckily he has many alts that he'll use in this thread within 30 minute or so, I'm sure of it.

[Rico2016]

pippen and grant/rodman were never injured so how can anyone show you where someone stepped up for them if they were never out?

In the hawks series kevin love missed the whole thing and kyrie irving missed two games. The cavs needed someone to step up and jr smith answered the call for at least game 1, where he scored 28 on 63% shooting, but in the other 3 games he only averaged 15 ppg on 44%. And he didn't play a lick of defense.

That is what you're getting an erection over.

But had pippen been injured for significant time there is no doubt that toni kukoc would've stepped up to fill that void at sf, at least offensively.

Kukoc was so good as a 3rd scoring option that he was winning finals games by himself, while playing alongside michael jordan and scottie pippen. He was so good as a 3rd scoring option that phil jackson ran game winning plays in the nba finals for toni kukoc over michael jordan.

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

reality check: if jordan was without grant/rodman for an entire series he would've lost regardless of what pippen or kukoc did.

The cavs didn't miss a beat without love because lebron averaged 11 rebounds per game (30/11/9 in that series) and filled the void left by love - something jordan couldn't do if he lost his power forward.

bingo

[Roundball_Rock]

You haven't refuted my point about Shaq and Duncan yet.

Which 5 teams are you talking about?

Good question. Have those supposed 5 teams been spelled out? We need to see the list and fact check. MJ stans love to lie. In this thread they claimed the 94' Bulls with Pippen were a below average offense compared to playoff teams. That lie was quickly debunked. In contrast, the Bulls w/out Pippen in 98' were in the bottom third of playoff teams in offense. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481094-Pippen-s-Efficiency-in-the-97-and-98-Finals/page3

They have to be held accountable when they lie, lie, and lie some more daily.