Hey Roundball, you understand that MJ gave the bulls a 2-way team, right?

[3ball]

The bulls were good defensively with MJ or Pippen

but only the MJ-bulls had goat offenses IN ADDITION to the good defense

Normally, increases on one end come at the expense of the other end, but MJ allowed a 2-way team, because he's the goat 2-way player

The bulls' defense ranked 6th in '94, which is the same as 91-93' (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the decline from 3-peat to 2nd round was due entirely to the loss of MJ's goat offense..

[Axe]

'No pip, no chip'

[Vino24]

The bulls were good defensively with MJ or Pippen

but only the MJ-bulls had goat offenses IN ADDITION to the good defense

Bulls offenses weren't good without MJ, let alone goat

The bulls defense ranked the 6th in '94, which is the same as 91-93' (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the decline from 3-peat to 2nd round was due entirely to the loss of MJ's goat offense..

Normally, increases on one end come at the expense of the other end, but MJ allowed a 2-way team, because he's the goat 2-way player
Defense actually improved on MJ’s 1st retirement.

[3ball]

Defense actually improved on MJ’s 1st retirement.

No it didn't

The bulls' defense ranked 6th in '94, which is the same as 91-93' (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the decline from 3-peat to 2nd round was due entirely to the loss of MJ's goat offense..

[Axe]

** __ is typing **

[Vino24]

They were more cohesive defensive unit. “Scottie’s all-around game became very polished and very professional because he had more leadership,” Cleamons said. “We had balanced scoring, our team defense became more cohesive, and we just became a better all-around basketball team.”

[Rico2016]

Here is more context on scoring in 98' versus 14'.

League leaders in 98': MJ 29, Shaq 28, Malone 27, Richmond 23, Walker 22. 10th was 21.6; 20th 19.2. Pippen averaged 19.1, which would be 21st if he played enough games to qualify for the scoring title.

League leaders in 14': KD 32, Carmelo 27, LeBron 27, Love 26, Harden 25. 10th was 22.7; 20th 19.3. Wade averaged 19.0 which would have been 23rd or 24th.

So was clearly easier to score in the 10's, especially for perimeter players. There is some compression once you get lower on the scoring leaders but the deltas between 20th and 5th are revealing. Pippen, as a #2 option, scored only 3 less than the 5th leading scorer; Wade scored 6 less than the 5th leading scorer. So Pippen was close to giving you top level scoring despite being a #2 option; Wade wasn't. This was despite Wade having the benefit of an all-time great passer massively boosting his efficiency.

We can parse it many different ways but the result will always be the same: 19 PPG in 98'>>>19 PPG in 14'.

[Roundball_Rock]

but only the MJ-bulls had goat offenses IN ADDITION to the good defense

Why did the offense decline more without Pippen and improve more with Pippen returning than they did with MJ leaving/returning? :pimp:

[3ball]

Here is more context on scoring in 98' versus 14'.

League leaders in 98': MJ 29, Shaq 28, Malone 27, Richmond 23, Walker 22. 10th was 21.6; 20th 19.2. Pippen averaged 19.1, which would be 21st if he played enough games to qualify for the scoring title.

League leaders in 14': KD 32, Carmelo 27, LeBron 27, Love 26, Harden 25. 10th was 22.7; 20th 19.3. Wade averaged 19.0 which would have been 23rd or 24th.

So was clearly easier to score in the 10's, especially for perimeter players. There is some compression once you get lower on the scoring leaders but the deltas between 20th and 5th are revealing. Pippen, as a #2 option, scored only 3 less than the 5th leading scorer; Wade scored 6 less than the 5th leading scorer. So Pippen was close to giving you top level scoring despite being a #2 option; Wade wasn't. This was despite Wade having the benefit of an all-time great passer massively boosting his efficiency.

We can parse it many different ways but the result will always be the same: 19 PPG in 98'>>>19 PPG in 14'.

Regular Season PPG Rank

13' Wade... 8th
14' Wade... 23rd

93' Pippen... 28th
98' Pippen... 21st


People complained about 13-14' Wade because he'd been reduced to prime Pippen stats...

The stats don't lie - Wade averaged 21/5/5 and 21 PER in 13-14', including 20/5/5 in 13' Finals... That's actually better than prime Pippen)

[Rico2016]

Regular Season PPG Rank

13' Wade... 8th
14' Wade... 23rd

93' Pippen... 28th
98' Pippen... 21st


People complained about 13-14' Wade because he'd been reduced to prime Pippen stats...

The stats don't lie - Wade averaged 21/5/5 and 21 PER in 13-14', including 20/5/5 in 13' Finals... That's actually better than prime Pippen)

But 2013 Playoffs Wade scored even LESS than any version of Pip
.
How do you feel?

[Roundball_Rock]

But 2013 Playoffs Wade scored even LESS than any version of Pip
.
How do you feel?

:lol

[Rico2016]

:lol

He's SHOOK :lol

[3ball]

But 2013 Playoffs Wade scored even LESS than any version of Pip
.
How do you feel?

Not when you account for pace, and Wade averaged 20/5/5 when it mattered in the Finals, while mj won with 15 on 34-40% from Pippen..

Only MJ beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - aka only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

[Smoke117]

lol You mean if you take a star player off your team and replace him with a scrub like Pete Myers the team is going to take a significant hit offensively? Wow, real eye opening conclusion you came to there. It could be Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Hakeem and if you replaced them with a Pete Myers scrub those teams too would take a huge hit offensively. You are so disingenuously stupid.

[Roundball_Rock]

lol You mean if you take a star player off your team and replace him with a scrub like Pete Myers the team is going to take a significant hit offensively? Wow, real eye opening conclusion you came to there. It could be Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Hakeem and if you replaced them with a Pete Myers scrub those teams too would take a huge hit offensively. You are so disingenuously stupid.

The funny part is--by their own standard--the Bulls' offense took a bigger hit when it lost MJ than when it lost Pippen and similarly, improved more when they gained Pippen than when they gained MJ. :lol

[light]

The bulls were good defensively with MJ or Pippen

but only the MJ-bulls had goat offenses IN ADDITION to the good defense

Normally, increases on one end come at the expense of the other end, but MJ allowed a 2-way team, because he's the goat 2-way player

The bulls' defense ranked 6th in '94, which is the same as 91-93' (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the decline from 3-peat to 2nd round was due entirely to the loss of MJ's goat offense..


The crazy thing about this comment is that Pippen ran their offense as well as their defense.

Pip was the guy Jackson leaned on to make sure the triangle ran well. He didn't trust MJ with that responsibility.

[3ball]

lol You mean if you take a star player off your team and replace him with a scrub like Pete Myers the team is going to take a significant hit offensively? Wow, real eye opening conclusion you came to there. It could be Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Hakeem and if you replaced them with a Pete Myers scrub those teams too would take a huge hit offensively. You are so disingenuously stupid.
Yes, the offensive ranking cratered in 94', while the defensive ranking remained the same - so the fall from 3-peat to 2nd round was due ENTIRELY to jordan''s goat offense


Btw Roundball - the bulls offense fell off more without MJ (#1 all-time during 1st three-peat to #14 in league in 94'), and then improved goat amounts in 96' (#4 all-time in 96', #1 in league... despite 4-on-5 offensively, but no sweat for the goat offensive player)

[Roundball_Rock]

The crazy thing about this comment is that Pippen ran their offense as well as their defense.

Pip was the guy Jackson leaned on to make sure the triangle ran well. He didn't trust MJ with that responsibility.

He was there when Doug Collins tried MJ as PG and saw how it "worked"...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Bulls offense was 106 rating in 1994 and jumped to over 115 with Jordan for a full season in 1996. So I think that makes Jordan the clear offensive anchor.

However, bulls defense was still ranked 2nd in 1995 with out of shape Jordan playing 18 games. Scottie Pippen is the clear cut defensive anchor.

Put them together and they are the goat duo.

[3ball]

Bulls offense was 106 rating in 1994 and jumped to over 115 with Jordan for a full season in 1996. So I think that makes Jordan the clear offensive anchor.

However, bulls defense was still ranked 2nd in 1995 with out of shape Jordan playing 18 games. Scottie Pippen is the clear cut defensive anchor.

Put them together and they are the goat duo.

Bulls had the #1 defense with Pippen out in 98'

And mj was the dpoy in 88' who taught Pippen everything, and who got more dpoy votes every year v(viewed as defensive leader)

[Smoke117]

Bulls offense was 106 rating in 1994 and jumped to over 115 with Jordan for a full season in 1996. So I think that makes Jordan the clear offensive anchor.

However, bulls defense was still ranked 2nd in 1995 with out of shape Jordan playing 18 games. Scottie Pippen is the clear cut defensive anchor.

Put them together and they are the goat duo.

That's also with Grant leaving in 95. Pippen, Jordan, and Grant were the three best defensive players during the first threepeat and Pippen, by himself, carried the Bulls to the 2nd best defensive team in the league in 95.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls offense was 106 rating in 1994

They were net (i.e., the difference from the league average) +2.2 (so 108.5) with Pippen in 94'; -2.6 without him. The +2.2 was down from +5 three in 93'.

Without Pippen in 98' they were +1; with him they went to +6 (so around 111+)...

Jordan? In 95' without MJ they were +1; with MJ they went to +4.

So this data suggests MJ improved the offensive rating by 3, Pippen by 5.

Defense? The defense got better without MJ. It got better still without Grant. It got better without Pippen too. Harder to say there. It sounds like players just worked harder on defense down a star (like Rodman did in 98' when Pippen was out, as the "doc" even showed) but you can't "work hard" the same way scoring wise.

[Smoke117]

They were net (i.e., the difference from the league average) +2.2 (so 108.5) with Pippen in 94'; -2.6 without him. The +2.2 was down from +5 three in 93'.

Without Pippen in 98' they were +1; with him they went to +6 (so around 111+)...

Jordan? In 95' without MJ they were +1; with MJ they went to +4.

So this data suggests MJ improved the offensive rating by 3, Pippen by 5.

Defense? The defense got better without MJ. It got better still without Grant. It got better without Pippen too. Harder to say there. It sounds like players just worked harder on defense down a star (like Rodman did in 98' when Pippen was out, as the "doc" even showed) but you can't "work hard" the same way scoring wise.

It's amusing how he goes on about how Jordan carried the defense in 98 without Pippen when Rodman was clearly the best and most impactful defensive player during that time.

[3ball]

That's also with Grant leaving in 95. Pippen, Jordan, and Grant were the three best defensive players during the first threepeat and Pippen, by himself, carried the Bulls to the 2nd best defensive team in the league in 95.

Bulls had #1 defense with Pippen out in 98'

And bulls had shit offenses with Pippen, while MJ gave bulls great defenses and offenses

By every measure - accolades, locking down matchup, team defensive rankings, dpoy votes, help defense eye test - MJ was the better defender.. far better.. the goat perimeter defender

Pippen I babied and consoled with defensive compliments because his offense sucked

[Roundball_Rock]

It's amusing how he goes on about how Jordan carried the defense in 98 without Pippen when Rodman was clearly the best and most impactful defensive player during that time.

Yup, ask Karl Malone. Malone's TS % in the finals for his career is -10% compared to his career average (this also includes 04') but we know Rodman held him in check--especially in 97' when Malone, a post PF in the era before "stretch 4's", had a 48.5% TS. Malone was 59% TS for his career...Malone got hampered severely by Rodman and was outplayed by his MVP rival MJ as well as by Pippen in the series.

[3ball]

Yup, ask Karl Malone. Malone's TS % in the finals for his career is -10% compared to his career average (this also includes 04') but we know Rodman held him in check--especially in 97' when Malone, a post PF in the era before "stretch 4's", had a 48.5% TS. Malone was 59% TS for his career...Malone got hampered severely by Rodman and was outplayed by his MVP rival MJ as well as by Pippen in the series.

The absence of MJ"s goat offense is why the Bulls got worse in 94 - the defensive ranking remained the same relative to the league

What's better

Good team defense + goat team offense

Good team defense + average team offense

Btw, Pippen rarely had tough defensive assignments, yet his offense was still horrible

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They were net (i.e., the difference from the league average) +2.2 (so 108.5) with Pippen in 94'; -2.6 without him. The +2.2 was down from +5 three in 93'.

Without Pippen in 98' they were +1; with him they went to +6 (so around 111+)...

Jordan? In 95' without MJ they were +1; with MJ they went to +4.

So this data suggests MJ improved the offensive rating by 3, Pippen by 5.

Defense? The defense got better without MJ. It got better still without Grant. It got better without Pippen too. Harder to say there. It sounds like players just worked harder on defense down a star (like Rodman did in 98' when Pippen was out, as the "doc" even showed) but you can't "work hard" the same way scoring wise.

But the offense went from good but not great in 1994 to all-time great in 1996 when Jordan played a full season. Thats the difference I was seeing with Jordan in the offense. 1995 Jordan was not in game shape and only played 18 games.

As far as Pippen's defense I do agree he was the best there.

[Roundball_Rock]

But the offense went from good but not great in 1994 to all-time great in 1996 when Jordan played a full season

Yeah, and the offense was all-time great in 97' with Pippen and then even worse in 98' without Pippen, with MJ than it was with Pippen, no MJ in 94'.


Thats the difference I was seeing with Jordan in the offense

How do you explain 94' implying the same impact? The Bulls declined 3 in rOTG (+5 to +2, in the games Pippen played). That mirrors the 95' increase from +1 to +4.

The impact with Pippen was +5 in both 94' and 98' (+7 if you want to judge against 97').

[StrongLurk]

Roundball has been WRECKING people recently.

You know someone is really crushing souls on ISH when 3Ball has to dedicate a thread to call you out.

[3ball]

There's diminishing returns with team ortg

Pippen was improving zero offensive teams that had no talent and making them average

MJ was putting teams into the goat stratosphere offensively

When did Pippen lead a goat offense?... He only brought down the offense - it was goat in spite of him

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was improving zero offensive teams that had no talent and making them average

Going from 21st to 8th is "average"? So +2.2=108.5 in 94'. -2.6=103.7.

Suns 111.7 (1st)
Jazz 108.6 (7th)
Bulls w/Pippen 108.5 (8th)
Blazers 108.1 (10th)
Pacers 107.8 (11th)
Rockets 105.9 (15th)
Knicks 105.7 (16th)
Bulls w/out Pippen 103.7 (21st)
Clippers 102.9 (22nd)


MJ was putting teams into the goat stratosphere offensively

The 94' Bulls' offense (when Pippen played) was better than anything MJ ever did in Chicago without the Pippen/Jackson combo.

Bulls rORTG from 1985-1989

1985: +0.8
1986: +1.4
1987: +0.3
1988: +1.0
1989: +1.3


Roundball has been WRECKING people recently.


All for a good cause! :cheers:

[Smoke117]

There's diminishing returns with team ortg

Pippen was improving zero offensive teams that had no talent and making them average

MJ was putting teams into the goat stratosphere offensively

When did Pippen lead a goat offense?... He only brought down the offense - it was goat in spite of him

I guess that's why the 98 bulls offense improved significantly when he came back, right? Because he brought down the offense...

[Roundball_Rock]

I guess that's why the 98 bulls offense improved significantly when he came back, right? Because he brought down the offense...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Going from 21st to 8th is "average"? So +2.2=108.5 in 94'. -2.6=103.7.

Suns 111.7 (1st)
Jazz 108.6 (7th)
Bulls/w Pippen 108.5 (8th)
Blazers 108.1 (10th)
Pacers 107.8 (11th)
Rockets 105.9 (15th)
Knicks 105.7 (16th)



The 94' Bulls' offense (when Pippen played) was better than anything MJ ever did in Chicago without the Pippen/Jackson combo.

Bulls rORTG from 1985-1989

1985: +0.8
1986: +1.4
1987: +0.3
1988: +1.0
1989: +1.3



All for a good cause! :cheers:

So you're comparing 3-peat system to lottery system.. standard Roundball - not smart enough to compare apples to apples.. doesn't understand diminishing returns or turning teammates into play-finishers.. literally not smart enough to understand these concepts.. so you're analysis is shannon-sharpe-level and worthless..

And the bulls' offense would've been better with at least 20 other players in Pippen's spot, many of them leading better offenses than Pippen ever did.. Pippen was weak offensively, despite the triangle's best attempts to help

[Roundball_Rock]

not smart enough to compare apples to apples

That is what 98' vs. 98', 97' vs. 98' is. :lol

98' Bulls rORTG w/out Pippen: +1
98' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +6
97' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +8

The MJ offenses consistently were at 0-1 until Pippen, Jackson got to work with team ball. 98' exposed that painfully. MJ's ball hogging results in poor shot selection versus in a team ball system.


So you're comparing 3-peat system to lottery system

The Bulls were in the ECF in 89', second round in 88', and last were in the lottery in 84'.

[3ball]

I guess that's why the 98 bulls offense improved significantly when he came back, right? Because he brought down the offense...

20-50 other guys would've been better in the triangle than Pippen

Just look his numbers.. they tell the story

Only MJ had to beat good teams with weak scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - to only Pippen made his #1 option do that

[3ball]

That is what 98' vs. 98', 97' vs. 98' is. :lol

98' Bulls rORTG w/out Pippen: +1
98' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +6
97' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +8

The MJ offenses consistently were at 0-1 until Pippen, Jackson got to work with team ball.



The Bulls were in the ECF in 89', second round in 88', and last were in the lottery in 84'.

20-50 other guys would've been better in the triangle than Pippen

Just look his numbers.. they tell the story

Only MJ had to beat good teams with weak scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - to only Pippen made his #1 option do that

Pippen's stats were aids DESPITE the triangle.. he made mj carry the goat load

[ELITEpower23]

Going from 21st to 8th is "average"? So +2.2=108.5 in 94'. -2.6=103.7.

Suns 111.7 (1st)
Jazz 108.6 (7th)
Bulls w/Pippen 108.5 (8th)
Blazers 108.1 (10th)
Pacers 107.8 (11th)
Rockets 105.9 (15th)
Knicks 105.7 (16th)
Bulls w/out Pippen 103.7 (21st)
Clippers 102.9 (22nd)



The 94' Bulls' offense (when Pippen played) was better than anything MJ ever did in Chicago without the Pippen/Jackson combo.

Bulls rORTG from 1985-1989

1985: +0.8
1986: +1.4
1987: +0.3
1988: +1.0
1989: +1.3



All for a good cause! :cheers:

Good-good what a beating :lol

MJ stans in utter shambles

[3ball]

Good-good what a beating :lol

MJ stans in utter shambles

35/6/6 and dpoy won 50 games in 88'

How many does Pippen's 22/8/5 win?

Remember - no triangle or 3-peat system or experienced teammates..... Only a lottery system and cokeheads... So how many wins for Pippen and his 22 ppg in 1988?

Obviously, you guys should be coming to different conclusions than you getting

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan scored for himself; Pippen looked to help his teammates score and to work the offense to keep all players in rhythm and involved. As a result, Pippen increased his teammates' efficiency. Jordan? After he left Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Williams all became more efficient; only Armstrong became less efficient.

Same thing with Pippen in 98'. A rising tide of efficiency for all boats. :bowdown:

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

[3ball]

Jordan scored for himself; Pippen looked to help his teammates score. As a result, Pippen increased his teammates' efficiency. Jordan? After he left Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Williams all became more efficient; only Armstrong became less efficient.

Same thing with Pippen in 98'. A rising tide of efficiency for all boats. :bowdown:

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

^^^ Draymond has much bigger impact.. so did Boris Diaw or Andre Roberson

You're pretending that tiny things are enormous - look how desperate you are - arguing that Pippen is great because half his teammates saw their stats increaese by 1 point... You're making my case that Pippen wasn't great with such weak arguments

Btw, Dray is someone that actually DID average more assists than MJ.. Pippen didn't.. MJ averaged more assists than Pippen and assisted on the most bulls field goals - so whenever you say Pippen passed more - you're lying - mj averaged more assists and assisted on the most bulls' field goals

[SATAN]

^^^ Draymond has much bigger impact.. so did Boris Diaw or Andre Roberson


You're an idiot.

[3ball]

You're an idiot.

The things Roundball is touting are the same things those guys do - glue guys - every team has them

[Roundball_Rock]

^^^ Draymond has much bigger impact.. so did Boris Diaw or Andre Roberson

:roll:

I didn't cherry pick players (foreign concept for you). I used the Bulls' leading scorers. So yeah, Kukoc had a small increase (which you and your ilk would just delete from the table) but the others had statistically significant increases. Kerr was +10%.

[Elosha]

Pippen and Jordan were both great defenders and leaders on the defensive end (both team and individual) for all of their championship years. It's really disingenuous for anyone to knock either of them on that end of the floor. They both played defense at a level and intensity that was at ATG elite level.

Roundball, you post so much that I can't remember, do you have KAJ, MJ, LBJ, or someone else as number one? Although the majority of your posts are anti-Jordan, I thought I recall you had him at either 1 or 2 along with KAJ. I could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem 1, MJ 2. Wilt 3, LeBron 4, Russell 5.

Prime vs. prime I have Kareem and MJ tied. The only difference between them is longevity. Kareem compiled 17 elite seasons while MJ had 11 (I can't count 86' and 95' when he played a combined 35 games those years). I have a similar criteria for any sport: if I am drafting a team from scratch in stick & ball (or building a team from scratch in auto racing) who gives me the best chance for success over the course of their careers? Without knowing about no other factors--nothing about teammates, opponents, injuries, etc. Just what they were as a player or racer during their careers. I follow auto racing and its history too, although not as much as NBA. Earnhardt is my NASCAR GOAT over his peers with longevity being the big differentiator since no one else was a championship contender at 50 years old.

I respect MJ the player and liked him growing up (my second favorite). I just don't like the BS most of his fans spew, with 3ball being the prime example. He gets a lot of flack but he is a more extreme version of what most MJ fans (although not all, not you, not Phoenix, not guy for example) here think, often he simply says the quiet part out loud.

It is fair to characterize me as anti-Jordan but if you look under the hood of those posts they almost always are in response to MJ mythology like what 3ball brings here. I'm not actually out there saying MJ sucked as a player or is was not as great as advertised, etc.

[Elosha]

That's fair. I personally go MJ then KAJ, but I acknowledge KAJ has a legit argument. They both have the cleanest argument for GOAT.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's fair. I personally go MJ then KAJ, but I acknowledge KAJ has a legit argument. They both have the cleanest argument for GOAT.

Agreed and I can see the argument that MJ had the GOAT prime. There is a case for KAJ and Wilt, but I can see it for MJ. Backpick's concluded MJ had the GOAT peak but has KAJ as GOAT due to more longevity.

[Hey Yo]

MJ's quitting to rest up knocks him down a couple notches. Many other top stars (in their prime) would have benefited if they also took almost 2yrs off to let body and mind heal.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan scored for himself; Pippen looked to help his teammates score and to work the offense to keep all players in rhythm and involved. As a result, Pippen increased his teammates' efficiency. Jordan? After he left Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Williams all became more efficient; only Armstrong became less efficient.

Same thing with Pippen in 98'. A rising tide of efficiency for all boats. :bowdown:

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Somebody pull 3ball outta there.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0PZUJQ2lz9o/XW8EwFOv-HI/AAAAAAAALOY/SI3-bt8ezSoO7laf80S8i6xU4rYR1SsugCLcBGAs/s1600/ThrowTheTowel.gif

[Elosha]

MJ's quitting to rest up knocks him down a couple notches. Many other top stars (in their prime) would have benefited if they also took almost 2yrs off to let body and mind heal.

That's something you always say, but saying a false thing over and over doesn't make it true. Read this. And there's plenty other sources saying the same thing.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26449232/the-true-story-michael-jordan-brief-promising-baseball-career

Anyone who think toiling away in the minor leagues and remaking your athletic abilities from the ground up from basketball to baseball is R&R - in your 30's while grieving your father's murder - has no leg to stand upon.

[Hey Yo]

That's something you always say, but saying a false thing over and over doesn't make it true. Read this. And there's plenty other sources saying the same thing.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26449232/the-true-story-michael-jordan-brief-promising-baseball-career

Anyone who think toiling away in the minor leagues and remaking your athletic abilities from the ground up from basketball to baseball is R&R - in your 30's while grieving your father's murder - has no leg to stand upon.
I think we can both agree that the toll taken on ones body of being an outfielder in minor league baseball doesnt come close to what an NBA superstar has to endure through a reg and postseason run.

You really think his body and mind didn't benefit from almost 2yrs off? He said himself after the 93' Finals he was spent.

[RRR3]

^^^ Draymond has much bigger impact.. so did Boris Diaw or Andre Roberson

You're pretending that tiny things are enormous - look how desperate you are - arguing that Pippen is great because half his teammates saw their stats increaese by 1 point... You're making my case that Pippen wasn't great with such weak arguments

Btw, Dray is someone that actually DID average more assists than MJ.. Pippen didn't.. MJ averaged more assists than Pippen and assisted on the most bulls field goals - so whenever you say Pippen passed more - you're lying - mj averaged more assists and assisted on the most bulls' field goals
This is permaban worthy. You can't even defend this.

[Elosha]

I think we can both agree that the toll taken on ones body of being an outfielder in minor league baseball doesnt come close to what an NBA superstar has to endure through a reg and postseason run.

You really think his body and mind didn't benefit from almost 2yrs off? He said himself after the 93' Finals he was spent.

Sure, he was spent after a grueling three-peat and dealing with a lot of negative media with regards to his gambling, not to say he didn't deserve it. Then you top that off with his father's murder and I don't know why anyone would fault him for wanting to do something his father had always dreamed he would do. If you want to make an argument that his longevity and total career numbers have negatively been affected by his decision to take time off, you obviously can. His overall numbers/accomplishments would have been higher had he not taken that time off. Personally, that is not the deciding factor for me when you were talking about GOAT candidates, who all have extremely impressive career numbers.

I'm not sure how you quantify two different sports' physical toll on any one person's body. I would agree basketball is overall a more physically demanding sport then baseball. But you can't compare just a typical baseball season to a typical basketball season in this case. For Jordan, you are talking about someone who is basically having to relearn baseball from scratch, not in luxurious major leagues, in the much less frills minor leagues. He was putting in massive amounts of practice time and trying to basically readjust his reflexes, muscles, and his hand eye coordination from a body and mind geared toward basketball, to an entirely different sport. That is actually both mentally and physically grueling. So no, I don't think Jordan was gaining some huge mental or physical break during those two years, quite the opposite. The facts simply don't warrant that conclusion. And then he had to come back and readjust reflexes, his endurance, and coordination back to basketball after a two-year hiatus. That is also not easy for anyone, basketball superstar or not.

[Whoah10115]

No offense to the man, but Andre Roberson was tough to read.

[trada7029]

.
This is why MJ was #2 for DPOY in 1993, while Pippen wasn't top 10:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dW06cV4IXOM


Notice how lightning quick MJ was and the amazing steals he had

He got blamed for this loss.. Because he was such a boss that he didn't let teammates get blamed - he took ALL responsibility

[tpols]

Kareem was the ultimate loser in his prime. 1 ring in a weak decade and countless playoff bounces.

Magic totally saved him.

Jordan is just on another stratosphere if you're about winning.

[MrFonzworth]

Props to roundball for kicking OP out of the ISH scene.

[trada7029]

Kareem was the ultimate loser in his prime. 1 ring in a weak decade and countless playoff bounces.

Magic totally saved him.

Jordan is just on another stratosphere if you're about winning.

Yeah but 6 MVP's in 10 years?.. or was it 9 years?

That's a body of work that can stand up to most of MJ's

Yeah regular season MVP's don't mean anything except when it's more than anyone else ever had

I'm surprised no one makes this argument for him.. And just blow off the "losing in the 70's" counterarguments by saying he had no help - no crime there... 05' and 19' Lebron can tell you that.. or 85-90' Jordan.. or 05-07' Kobe..

[ELITEpower23]

Props to roundball for kicking OP out of the ISH scene.

+1

[trada7029]

I guess one could say that MVP's are a function of circumstance and don't represent player rankings, which is true

[Roundball_Rock]

Props to roundball for kicking OP out of the ISH scene.

Alas, he is back as trada (2ball is another alt). We'll keep at him! :pimp:


Kareem was the ultimate loser in his prime. 1 ring in a weak decade and countless playoff bounces.

Yes, he is a loser because his 2nd and/or 3rd options kept getting hurt in the playoffs (something that never happened to MJ, outside of a couple scattered games--one which we hear about like it happened yesterday 30 years later because the Bulls lost it badly), because that is his fault, or he played with 0 all-stars in LA before Magic. A real GOAT would use his Space Jam powers to heal injuries, right?