Do we give Phil Jackson enough credit for three 3-peats and another back to back?

[Carbine]

If you compare those coaching achievements with his contemporaries, nobody else has three peated even once. Only a select group have won back to back.

One of the trolling things I see is no pip no chip, why isn't Phil Jackson having a troll like catchphrase to diminish Jordan too?

[Roundball_Rock]

He doesn't get enough credit. People keep saying he had great players but Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, Gasol never won without him. Shaq did--but with another all-time great coach in Riley.

[Bronbron23]

If you compare those coaching achievements with his contemporaries, nobody else has three peated even once. Only a select group have won back to back.

One of the trolling things I see is no pip no chip, why isn't Phil Jackson having a troll like catchphrase to diminish Jordan too?

No he definitely dosnt. I think the fact that he had mj and pip and then kobe and shaq definitely made things easier but deserves more credit none the less. Managing all the egos alone is a testimony to his skills as a couch

[Smoke117]

He gets too much credit. He was always on teams that were already contenders. He never actually built up a team from the bottom like a Larry Brown. He also won 9 of his championships while having the best player in the league.

[tpols]

overrated.

pop, larry brown, carlisle, riley, sloan, auerbach, and many more were better coaches. (adelman, karl, nelson etc.)

Anybody could win if they get prime MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Pippen, Gasol etc. for their whole career.

[Carbine]

Wow @ tools post.

I never thought I'd see a serious post saying Nelley was a better coach.

[STATUTORY]

pseudo-intellectual grifter who was in the right place at the right time

I ain't a bran fan but I ain't mad that le-WHOA-ke (k is silent) effectively ended the man's caareer after the posse comment

[tpols]

Wow @ tools post.

I never thought I'd see a serious post saying Nelley was a better coach.


you couldnt even spell his name right and expect us to take you seriously lol.

[tpols]

Don Nelson has the most wins of any coach in NBA history.

And he never had a single player on Shaq Kobe or MJ's level.

And this fella scoffs at that name drop.

:biggums:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe was terrible in his only year without Phil (2004)

Jordan/Pippen couldn't get past the ECF

Shaq was getting swept in the finals

Phil's triangle offense maximizes the offensive talent on the team, similar to D'antoni offense or Rick Carlisle. Top 8 offense in 2006 with Smush and Kwame lol

On top of that, Phil would do his meditation/yoga stuff with the team and all that.

He's the goat coach and just has a way to get in his players ear like no other coach has ever done before.

[tpols]

Phil didnt invent the triangle.


Its basic ideas were initially established by Hall of Fame coach Sam Barry at the University of Southern California. His system was further developed by former Houston Rockets and Kansas State University basketball head coach Tex Winter, who played for Barry in the late 1940s.

He simply bit it.

Look at how Phil bombed out with the Knicks.

Thats what youre gonna get from him without GOAT talent.

[Carbine]

I do take exception to putting a coach with 11 titles in, 9 of which were in an 12 year span to someone who never made a finals once and when he did leave Dallas, they went to the Finals with the general.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Phil didnt invent the triangle.



He simply bit it.

Look at how Phil bombed out with the Knicks.

Thats what youre gonna get from him without GOAT talent.

Adelman didn't invent the Princeton offense either but him/Phil still get the credit because they were head coach.

[Carbine]

Phil didnt invent the triangle.



He simply bit it.

Look at how Phil bombed out with the Knicks.

Thats what youre gonna get from him without GOAT talent.

He didn't coach the Knicks.

[Kblaze8855]

When at one point the GOAT talent made it plain he wouldn’t keep playing for anyone else it’s clear the coach does more than simply exist. The greats who sing his praises had no respect for lame coaches or organizations. If people the caliber and personality of Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe didn’t see what was special you would know about it.

And Nelly coached 35 years... and the guy he passed for most wins coached 35. We hating on Phil for winning with talented players who all lost heavily without him but singing the praises of a guy who averaged 45 wins but coached from Pistol Pete to Derrick Rose?

Not saying Don didn’t contribute heavily to the game. But it’s like if Paul Pierce played 32 years and ended up the scoring leader. Yea....it’s amazing. But it’s not really a factor in an argument of him vs a Jordan or Russell type.

[tpols]

the mavs went to the Finals after Kobe Shaq Lakers and Kings dismantled.

avery was a horrible coach lmao. He's one of the worst coaches ever. The fact you aint know that is telling.

Don Nelson had a huge hand in developing Dirk into the superstar he would become. and Nash.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Yep. He failed at Knicks. His 11 rings all goes to trash. I mean sure he was very lucky but don't be ridiculous. No one wins more than him in his place.

[3ball]

If you compare those coaching achievements with his contemporaries, nobody else has three peated even once. Only a select group have won back to back.

One of the trolling things I see is no pip no chip, why isn't Phil Jackson having a troll like catchphrase to diminish Jordan too?

Phil was viewed as a first-time, nobody coach when the Bulls won in 1991

Are you going to change history and claim he was considered a goat coach in 90 and 91'?... Are you going to claim that Phil didn't inherit a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals without him?

Cut the crap.. Bulls nearly made the Finals in 89' with Pippen getting 9 ppg vs Detroit.. they were going to win whenever Pippen stopped wetting the bed

When a player is producing more than anyone ever has - no one is thinking about coaching... MJ averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals - no one was thinking about Phil during that time and he never won COY from 91-93' because winning was expected when you have the goat production rate on your side (MJ).. Phil had to win 72 games to get coach of the year because everyone expected winning with MJ..

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yep. He failed at Knicks. His 11 rings all goes to trash. I mean sure he was very lucky but don't be ridiculous. No one wins more than him in his place.

He was only a general manager with Knicks. He drafted Porzingis who turned out to be a very good player. Its not Jackson's fault that Knicks have the worst owner in sports.

[Reggie43]

One of the most impressive things I have seen Kobe do was reunite with Phil Jackson despite the negative things the latter said about him in the media and his book. This means how much he values winning above anything else and shows how good a coach Phil Jackson is for someone to take that kind of abuse but still want to team up in order to win rings.

[imdaman99]

Screw Phil. Basically stole money and time from the Knicks and the fans. Was one of the biggest busts in the history of NY sports signings.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Phil was viewed as a first-time, nobody coach when the Bulls won in 1991

Are you going to change history and claim he was considered a goat coach in 90 and 91'?... Are you going to claim that Phil didn't inherit a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals without him?

Cut the crap.. Bulls nearly made the Finals in 89' with Pippen getting 9 ppg vs Detroit.. they were going to win whenever Pippen stopped wetting the bed

When a player is producing more than anyone ever has - no one is thinking about coaching... MJ averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals - no one was thinking about Phil during that time and he never won COY from 91-93' because winning was expected when you have the goat production rate on your side (MJ).. Phil had to win 72 games to get coach of the year because everyone expected winning with MJ..

Pippen went from 9 shots and the weak 3rd option in 1989 to 15 shots and a strong 2nd option in 1991. The difference was a sweep instead of losing in 6. So Pippen was used better in the offense due to the triangle and Phil. 1990 they went seven but Pippen had the headache and his dad died that year. Pippen benefited from Phil.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at using Jackson sucking as a GM as somehow diminishing his ability as a coach. Those players all had other coaches who made finals or at least conference finals; they never won without PJ, except for Shaq with another top 5 all-time coach in Riley.


Phil was viewed as a first-time, nobody coach when the Bulls won in 1991

Are you going to change history and claim he was considered a goat coach in 90 and 91'?.

This is absurd. How many HOF coaches are HOF coaches from day one (unless it is a situation like Coach K coming over to the NBA)? Riley and Jackson were both former players who became assistants when their HC was fired and they got the job.



Pippen went from 9 shots and the weak 3rd option in 1989

He was the 2nd option by his second year. People look at his playoff stats and don't know he had a 0/0/0 game because he played 1 minute before getting hurt. So he basically didn't play but it counts towards his averages as 0's across the board because he technically did. Hence the deceptive 9 PPG # 3ball uses.

[Smoke117]

Pippen went from 9 shots and the weak 3rd option in 1989 to 15 shots and a strong 2nd option in 1991. The difference was a sweep instead of losing in 6. So Pippen was used better in the offense due to the triangle and Phil. 1990 they went seven but Pippen had the headache and his dad died that year. Pippen benefited from Phil.

lol Yeah, it's not like he just got better or anything. It was Phil and the triangle. :oldlol: As I've said before, if anything, the triange offense limited his offense as it was a very slow half court offense. Pippen would have flourished the most in an up tempo run and gun offense as he was always at his best in the open court. If he was playing in those offenses Drexler was he could have been putting up numbers like he was.

[tpols]

One of the most impressive things I have seen Kobe do was reunite with Phil Jackson despite the negative things the latter said about him in the media.

If you had Frank Hamblen as your head coach you'd do that too.

Most people dont know this, but Rudy T retiring due to cancer is what derailed that 2005 laker team.

They had a winning record with Rudy but that just demoralized the whole team. Which was already a skeleton crew outside of kobe.

[3ball]

lol Yeah, it's not like he just got better or anything. It was Phil and the triangle. :oldlol: As I've said before, if anything, the triange offense limited his offense as it was a very slow half court offense. Pippen would have flourished the most in an up tempo run and gun offense as he was always at his best is an all time great open court player.

It's funny because I always wondered whether Collins got fired because he didn't want to run a system

And yeah... That's exactly what happened... Jordan basically lebron-balled Collins (MJ didn't encourage a system), which got him fired

But Jordan-ball was actually a lot different from lebron-ball because Jordan wasn't a ball-dominator and teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him... But the offense was still one-dimensional - this was because Pippen sucked and didn't deserve more than 10 shot attempts or so... Once he was ready to take 15 shots, the offense would've added more wrinkles and the bulls would've won with Collins - they might've won without all that if Pippen hadn't missed the last 2 games in the 89' ECF

[Roundball_Rock]

lol Yeah, it's not like he just got better or anything. It was Phil and the triangle. :oldlol: As I've said before, if anything, the triange offense limited his offense as it was a very slow half court offense. Pippen would have flourished the most in an up tempo run and gun offense as he was always at his best in the open court. If he was playing in those offenses Drexler was he could have been putting up numbers like he was.

Pippen is the only legend in history who would not have had a trajectory of growth. These guys act like Drexler, Stockton, McHale, etc. back then (or Kawhi, Harden, Butler today) were putting up all-star numbers from day 1 and only Pippen was not. The career trajectory of Pippen and other HOF players is at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480126-Pippen-s-Career-Start-Comparing-to-Other-Hall-of-Fame-Future-HOF-Players&p=13996616#post13996616 . Stockton wasn't even a starter until his 4th year. We only hear this TP with Pippen.


if Pippen hadn't missed the last 2 games in the 89' ECF

He basically missed 1 game, not 2 (39 minutes in Game 5). So you are saying, No Pip, no Chip? :eek:

[Reggie43]

If you had Frank Hamblen as your head coach you'd do that too.

Most people dont know this, but Rudy T retiring due to cancer is what derailed that 2005 laker team.

They had a winning record with Rudy but that just demoralized the whole team. Which was already a skeleton crew outside of kobe.

Maybe but the things said between Kobe and Phil was pretty bad but I understand what you are trying to say.

[Overdrive]

overrated.

pop, larry brown, carlisle, riley, sloan, auerbach, and many more were better coaches. (adelman, karl, nelson etc.)

Anybody could win if they get prime MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Pippen, Gasol etc. for their whole career.

Why didn't Kobe and Shaq win with Dell Harris or Kurt Rambis - anyone..

[Roundball_Rock]

Why didn't Kobe and Shaq win with Dell Harris or Kurt Rambis - anyone..

Yup. What did Shaq win in Orlando? He was in the finals and the ECF there. Kobe won nothing with D'Antoni, who has made 4-5 WCF by now. Kobe didn't win with Mike Brown (who has a finals trip and 2 ECF on his resume). Jordan/Pippen did not win with Doug Collins. They made the ECF with him. Pippen did not win with Dunleavey (who made a finals and several WCF).

The common denominator here is these players only won with GOAT-level coaching, Jackson or in Shaq's case also Riley. Even very good, but not great, coaches like D'Antoni and Collins didn't cut it.

[999Guy]

He gets too much credit. He was always on teams that were already contenders. He never actually built up a team from the bottom like a Larry Brown. He also won 9 of his championships while having the best player in the league.
The 87-89 Bulls and the 97-99 Lakers were playoff dustpans.

Jordan and Shaq were Wilt-esque generational athletes and talents with bad habits. Jordan was chasing triple doubles and Shaq thought defense was cute.

[NBAGOAT]

Why didn't Kobe and Shaq win with Dell Harris or Kurt Rambis - anyone..

Some of these names are laughable. Browns very below average when it comes to coaching offense. Sloan was not good at playoff adjustments. Adelman teams played a bit sloppy/undisciplined. Nelson was a genius at times but couldn’t spell defense after the 80s.

Most impressive thing about PJ teams for me granted helped by the star power is they gave up a big lead at such a lower percentage compared to other teams.

[BigShotBob]

He coached philosophy which changed the way the team handled high pressure situations by staying in the moment. MJ credits Phil for why he hit the shot over the Jazz in '98.

It isn't all X's and O's.

[light]

If you compare those coaching achievements with his contemporaries, nobody else has three peated even once. Only a select group have won back to back.

One of the trolling things I see is no pip no chip, why isn't Phil Jackson having a troll like catchphrase to diminish Jordan too?

Excellent point.

You're absolutely right.

No Jax no stacks.

There's no way Jordan wins anything without Phil Jackson, let alone Scottie Pippen.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

lol Yeah, it's not like he just got better or anything. It was Phil and the triangle. :oldlol: As I've said before, if anything, the triange offense limited his offense as it was a very slow half court offense. Pippen would have flourished the most in an up tempo run and gun offense as he was always at his best in the open court. If he was playing in those offenses Drexler was he could have been putting up numbers like he was.

Pippen's reg season stats could of been better on a team like suns with Steve Nash I agree. However, the game slows down in the playoffs and fast break teams/players never seem to win championships. So the triangle still maximized Pippen's talent and he played a lot better under Phil instead of Collins.

[Roundball_Rock]

he played a lot better under Phil instead of Collins.

He was a rookie and second year player under Collins. Every player, barring career altering injuries, is going to improve after their first two seasons. Why do people keep acting like Pippen was this alien who was exempt from the normal career trends of 99% of players?

Was there an Earth shattering change? Pippen was on the bench the first third of 89' (Bulls 13-11)--people forget that when comparing surface level stats.

Pippen 89' as starter: 16/7/4
Pippen 90' with Jackson: 17/7/5
Pippen 91' with Jackson: 18/7/6
Pippen 92' with Jackson: 21/8/7

So the change from 89' to 90' was minuscule and the growth trend continued each of Pippen's first five seasons. He regressed in 93' but moved forward again in 94'.

This is the story of a player who worked on his game and improved each year. To say it wouldn't have happened with Collins or another coach is a stretch. Is Jackson this player development guru like Pop is?

We have another comp to examine.

Grant in 1988: 8/6/1
Grant in 1989: 12/9/2
Grant in 1990: 13/8/3
Grant in 1991: 13/8/2
Grant in 1992: 14/10/3

He improved before Jackson and slightly after Jackson. The biggest growth for Pippen and Grant came under Collins. Grant more or less leveled off statistically for a few years before rising in 92', falling back in 93', and peaking in 94'.

Grant did not have the yearly growth Pippen displayed for five years, suggesting it had something to do with Pippen himself (talent, work ethic, etc.) rather than the coaching.

[Number34]

I would definitely consider him one of the greatest, you have to be to have those results. But when you think about a guy like Pop who builds and coaches his teams, as well as manages his players it's hard to put Phil in the same convo.
Kinda like Mark jackson vs. Steve Kerr, Jackson was good on the floor and probably managed them well as he was beloved by that team but Kerr brought real basketball Xs & Os knowledge to put them over top whilst excelling in what Mark Jackson was already doing.

[Carbine]

He builds the teams? RC Buford doesn't exist?

He coaches his teams? Phil Jackson didn't? What????

Pop manages his players, Phil doesn't?

What kind of arguments are these.............

[tpols]

Pop clearly has a bigger hand in recruiting all the outside america talent he's worked with.

Duncan, Manu, Parker, Diaw, all those euro centers etc. all came to SAS without ever having proven to be a star while Phil straight up inherited MJ and Shaq. lmao

The spurs also won off of incredible teamwork and execution, while Phil's won more off talent.

It's like comparing a rich kid with a trust fund to somebody who went rags to riches.

[Carbine]

Yeah, I guess "inheriting" Duncan & Robinson was rags.

WTF dude?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, I guess "inheriting" Duncan & Robinson was rags.

WTF dude?

Hey, Duncan was "unproven." The guy was seen as a can't miss prospect, was the #1 pick. Maybe he would have been a scrub elsewhere? :facepalm

People are getting ridiculous. Talent will always win out if a player is willing to do the work (so the outliers are people like Derrick Coleman).

The Spurs have never had "rags." Robinson to Duncan and then added Parker and Ginobili. As that core aged Kawhi emerged, they later brought in Aldridge. The only thing that broke this streak is Kawhi quitting on the team. He had stayed as a bridge from the Duncan era, given SAS' track record, they likely would have found another star for a new era.

[tpols]

Rookie Duncan was nowhere near 1990 Jordan or 2000 shaq... you guys are clowning. Those guys were already GOAT.

Phil also never won with a cast like 2013 or 2014 spurs who legitemately had no superstar player. (and went up against a bunch)

[PoutinPippin]

I mean, no, but does he REALLY deserve it?

Probably shouldn’t have three peated in 2002 with all that suspect officiating. But, he had:

The GOAT in Jordan
Most Dominant Ever in Shaq
2nd Best SG Ever in Kobe

That’s the best player ever, a top 5 ish player and top 10 player ever right there. Two of them on the same damn team especially. In addition

The Best Sidekick Ever in Scottie Quittin
The 2nd Best Sidekick Ever in Paula Gasoft

That’s a top 30 and top 40 players ever to boot.

[Carbine]

Rookie Duncan was nowhere near 1990 Jordan or 2000 shaq... you guys are clowning. Those guys were already GOAT.

Phil also never won with a cast like 2013 or 2014 spurs who legitemately had no superstar player. (and went up against a bunch)

I'd just like to point out the 2013 Spurs had a 1st team All NBA guy on the team in 2013 along with a 2nd team All-NBA

[Proctor]

I mean, no, but does he REALLY deserve it?

Probably shouldn’t have three peated in 2002 with all that suspect officiating. But, he had:

The GOAT in Jordan
Most Dominant Ever in Shaq
2nd Best SG Ever in Kobe

That’s the best player ever, a top 5 ish player and top 10 player ever right there. Two of them on the same damn team especially. In addition

The Best Sidekick Ever in Scottie Quittin
The 2nd Best Sidekick Ever in Paula Gasoft

That’s a top 30 and top 40 players ever to boot.
Thanks Coach

[Roundball_Rock]

Rookie Duncan was 1st team all-NBA and 5th in MVP voting. Rookie Shaq did not make all-NBA and was 7th in MVP, rookie MJ second team all-NBA and 6th in MVP as comparisons.


I'd just like to point out the 2013 Spurs had a 1st team All NBA guy on the team in 2013 along with a 2nd team All-NBA

Yeah, plus Manu and Kawhi. Not exactly "rags".

[ELITEpower23]

PJAX Made MJ and Kobe and Shaq

What did MJ do without PJAX? It aint pretty
What did Shaq do without PJAX? One ring (with Pat fuggin Riley :lol)
What did Kobe do without PJAX? It aint pretty

[tpols]

old tim duncan and tony parker were not even close to superstars.

those teams won with their ball movement and record breaking 3 pt shooting.

[Carbine]

2013 Duncan was a superstar from my view. He may have been "old" but he had a resurgence that year, specifically defensively. He was playing great, which was recognized with the first team all-nba nod and he continued it in the playoffs, highlighted by dropping 25 in a half in the closeout game 6 of the NBA finals.

They played team ball no doubt. Doesn't mean they didn't have a superstar impact player for that season.

2014 was different, but you clumped 2013 in there so I had to smarten you up ;)

[tpols]

2014 was different

and thats the year they won lmao.

by record breaking margin. you just proved the point.

Phil couldnt do that.