Magic Johnson: 43/10/6 and 43/7/8 vs Suns in G4 and G5 (Elimination), 1990 Playoffs

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://youtu.be/gMRl2dAXBw0

No Kareem here and in both of these games, Worthy shot just 24% from the field.

Both games show that if Magic went out and intended to score, he would lay it on teams.

[Whoah10115]

:applause:

[trada7029]

KJ was the Magic-killer would've easily beaten Magic in 1991 with MJ

KJ was winning 55+ every year and making the 89' and 90' WCF - so he easily 3-peats with mj from 89-91'... Piston-killer James Worthy 3-peats with MJ from 88-90' (88' fmvp)

This proves that Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior stats

Regarding Magic - this series showed that ball-dominators can't win with scoring because the scoring is too ball-dominant

It only worked previously because the Lakers had Kareem... But 5-4 in the Finals and numerous upset losses shows that Magic's ball dominance hurt team ceiling

[RRR3]

KJ was the Magic-killer would've easily beaten Magic in 1991 with MJ

KJ was winning 55+ every year and making the 89' and 90' WCF - so he easily 3-peats with mj from 89-91'... Piston-killer James Worthy 3-peats with MJ from 88-90' (88' fmvp)

This proves that Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior stats

Regarding Magic - this series showed that ball-dominators can't win with scoring because the scoring is too ball-dominant

It only worked previously because the Lakers had Kareem... But 5-4 in the Finals and numerous upset losses shows that Magic's ball dominance hurt team ceiling
You are sick, 3ball. What happened to retiring?

[dankok8]

Scoring 40 points in back to back games isn't proof that you can consistently destroy teams with scoring. He's nowhere close to a GOAT-caliber scorer but Magic could have averaged 25 ppg on good efficiency for a couple of seasons though.

[LoneyROY7]

KJ was the Magic-killer would've easily beaten Magic in 1991 with MJ

KJ was winning 55+ every year and making the 89' and 90' WCF - so he easily 3-peats with mj from 89-91'... Piston-killer James Worthy 3-peats with MJ from 88-90' (88' fmvp)

This proves that Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior stats

Regarding Magic - this series showed that ball-dominators can't win with scoring because the scoring is too ball-dominant

It only worked previously because the Lakers had Kareem... But 5-4 in the Finals and numerous upset losses shows that Magic's ball dominance hurt team ceiling

https://media.giphy.com/media/Y6yRfR88rvP44/giphy.gif

[Hey Yo]

meh...... PHX had the 18th ranked defense (out of 27) that year. They were the 5th seed, Lakers the 1st.

LA choked!!!

[light]

https://youtu.be/gMRl2dAXBw0

No Kareem here and in both of these games, Worthy shot just 24% from the field.

Both games show that if Magic went out and intended to score, he would lay it on teams.

Let's not get carried away with Magic's scoring prowess. He only has four 40 point playoff games in his 13 year career and these are half of them.

He's not LeBron James, who doubled Magic's career 40 point playoff game total in a single playoff season (eight 40 point games in in 2018).

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's not get carried away with Magic's scoring prowess.

Yeah, his career high is 24 PPG in the run and gun 80's. He led his team in scoring only once I believe and averaged 19.8 PPG in his prime (1982-1991). He was capable of scoring when needed (like Isiah) but he wasn't an elite scorer like cherry picking his all-time high playoff games would suggest.

Still arguably the GOAT offensive player when you combine his 20 PPG with GOAT-level passing and creation for his teammates.


KJ was the Magic-killer

KJ choked badly in his one finals trip.


KJ was winning 55+ every year

Tom Chambers was usually their leading scorer and they also got around 19-21 PPG from Eddie Johnson and prime Hornacek during that run.

The Suns' win totals from 1989-1992: 55, 54, 55, 53

So "55+" twice in four years--but exactly 55. One of those years was a first round loss where KJ averaged 12.8 PPG on 30.2% from the field (38.5% TS, 31.1% eFG).

Let's stop hyping guys based on a random series here or there and look at career long trends. KJ was good but there is a reason he was a 3x all-star, not a perennial.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Scoring 40 points in back to back games isn't proof that you can consistently destroy teams with scoring.

Depends on what you mean by destroying.

Magic was great in transition and a very good finisher. If the game slowed down, he also had a great post game with a decent jumpshot. And if he was fouled, he could knock down 90% of his freethrows.

Nobody is saying Magic would average 40 in the playoffs or anything. But if he wanted to make passing secondary? Magic would have more playoff runs like he did here. Scoring 25 a game on 60%TS. That is a pretty damn good scorer...compared to most "GOAT scorers".

1990 was also Magic's first playoff run without Kareem. And in this series, he didn't have much help. Overall, he had 4 playoff runs averaging 22+ on 60%TS. Including this one. Hard to imagine he wouldn't score A LOT more without Kareem. While being less team-oriented.

[Kblaze8855]

All anyone needs to do is watch Magic handing off points on the break when he had a layup to know his scoring was limited by choice. Magic on the Hawks is a comfortable 25 a game in the 80s if he chose to be it. He isn’t a guy who took 11-12 shots because he couldn’t get open often. Magic was an in traffic scorer. An isolation scorer. With no backdown violation Magic either scores or draws doubles all day if he decided to do it. But how often would it be called for when their two go to scorers both played on the block?

Magic had the skill set to be a straight up scorer first. But why? 5 rings and great records every year should have been disrupted to prove he could do specific numbers to people 30 years later?

Guys that great can often do whatever they want. But when they set about proving it like say....Wilt? Or even Jordan with his triple double chasing? We mock them for being stat focused.

Magic did what was right. He scored enough to make it clear he was holding back. With illegal d and no backdown rule no guard and very few forwards could have handled him if he wanted to make his team worse to prove that point. But all we would do is call him out for it. And rightly so.

What do the numbers matter when you display the skills?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All anyone needs to do is watch Magic handing off points on the break when he had a layup to know his scoring was limited by choice. Magic on the Hawks is a comfortable 25 a game in the 80s if he chose to be it. He isn’t a guy who took 11-12 shots because he couldn’t get open often. Magic was an in traffic scorer. An isolation scorer. With no backdown violation Magic either scores or draws doubles all day if he decided to do it. But how often would it be called for when their two go to scorers both played on the block?

Magic had the skill set to be a straight up scorer first. But why? 5 rings and great records every year should have been disrupted to prove he could do specific numbers to people 30 years later?

Guys that great can often do whatever they want. But when they set about proving it like say....Wilt? Or even Jordan with his triple double chasing? We mock them for being stat focused.

Magic did what was right. He scored enough to make it clear he was holding back. With illegal d and no backdown rule no guard and very few forwards could have handled him if he wanted to make his team worse to prove that point. But all we would do is call him out for it. And rightly so.

What do the numbers matter when you display the skills?

All of this. Good post as usual.

[HoopsNY]

Let's not get carried away with Magic's scoring prowess. He only has four 40 point playoff games in his 13 year career and these are half of them.

He's not LeBron James, who doubled Magic's career 40 point playoff game total in a single playoff season (eight 40 point games in in 2018).

I don't think this is fair to Magic who had a pass first mentality. He was certainly capable of scoring, but found himself defaulting to his teammates like Kareem and Worthy much of the time.

However, when scoring was necessary, he was able to rise to the occasion. For one, his first six seasons in the league he averaged 17.8 ppg in the playoffs. The next six he averaged 21.1 ppg. And he saw his eFG% go from .516 to .518 during that time.

Kareem getting older and the team changing propelled much of that. But I do find it interesting that he was able to sustain a high fg% despite taking more shots. His career high is just below 24 ppg on 52%. If he takes more shots and averages 26 ppg, do you really think his fg% would plummet? He probably still shoots 50%.

[HoopsNY]

All anyone needs to do is watch Magic handing off points on the break when he had a layup to know his scoring was limited by choice. Magic on the Hawks is a comfortable 25 a game in the 80s if he chose to be it. He isn’t a guy who took 11-12 shots because he couldn’t get open often. Magic was an in traffic scorer. An isolation scorer. With no backdown violation Magic either scores or draws doubles all day if he decided to do it. But how often would it be called for when their two go to scorers both played on the block?

Magic had the skill set to be a straight up scorer first. But why? 5 rings and great records every year should have been disrupted to prove he could do specific numbers to people 30 years later?

Guys that great can often do whatever they want. But when they set about proving it like say....Wilt? Or even Jordan with his triple double chasing? We mock them for being stat focused.

Magic did what was right. He scored enough to make it clear he was holding back. With illegal d and no backdown rule no guard and very few forwards could have handled him if he wanted to make his team worse to prove that point. But all we would do is call him out for it. And rightly so.

What do the numbers matter when you display the skills?

Exactly! One thing that many are losing in all of this is the skillset. Magic had an arsenal of moves and was particularly excellent with his post-up game. He wasn't limited like John Stockton. Stockton legitimately couldn't give you 25+ a night.

But if you put Magic on a struggling offensive team, why wouldn't he score 25+ a night when with LA he managed to score 24 on 52% like he did in '86-'87? As I mentioned before, if Magic takes more field goal attempts, he probably still shoots above 50%.

[Whoah10115]

Depends on what you mean by destroying.

Magic was great in transition and a very good finisher. If the game slowed down, he also had a great post game with a decent jumpshot. And if he was fouled, he could knock down 90% of his freethrows.

Nobody is saying Magic would average 40 in the playoffs or anything. But if he wanted to make passing secondary? Magic would have more playoff runs like he did here. Scoring 25 a game on 60%TS. That is a pretty damn good scorer...compared to most "GOAT scorers".

1990 was also Magic's first playoff run without Kareem. And in this series, he didn't have much help. Overall, he had 4 playoff runs averaging 22+ on 60%TS. Including this one. Hard to imagine he wouldn't score A LOT more without Kareem. While being less team-oriented.

I don't know why you responded to him. You posted videos showing Magic having great games when his team needed him, and this poster responds with Magic didn't do it a lot and LeBron.

[mukiyono]

yeah! absolutely magic! love that times and that basketball style from 90s

[Reggie43]

Nice share. Too young to have seen Magic at his peak so these highlights/games are the next best thing for me.

[mr4speed]

Exactly! One thing that many are losing in all of this is the skillset. Magic had an arsenal of moves and was particularly excellent with his post-up game. He wasn't limited like John Stockton. Stockton legitimately couldn't give you 25+ a night.

But if you put Magic on a struggling offensive team, why wouldn't he score 25+ a night when with LA he managed to score 24 on 52% like he did in '86-'87? As I mentioned before, if Magic takes more field goal attempts, he probably still shoots above 50%.

Hoops, it would be possible for Magic to score 25+ but I do not think he shoots over 50%. Here is what Magic did do the last 5 full seasons. 87 = 23.9 pts /gm and 52.2%. 88 = 19.6 pts/gm and 49.2%. 89 = 22.5 pts/gm and 50.9% 90 = 22.3 pts/gm and 48.0% and 91 = 19.4 pts/gm and 47.7%. Asking Magic to score 25+ per game could be done but anytime a player takes on a bigger scoring role, it is natural for the shooting % to dip. Plus the opposing teams are going to focus even more on Magic on the defensive side. And to be fair to Magic, for him to be at 25+ points per game, he should be getting relief from a competent point guard and at this point, my argument would be to keep Magic at the point ( you will not find anyone as good at PG) and if you want your team to score more , I would look at the other 4 positions and what I have on my roster and my bench substitutions ... just saying

[Kblaze8855]

I’d say this is a more in the flow good scoring game from magic:



https://youtu.be/z8Bgx_0lTo0



Late career slower magic wetting transition 3s and pull-ups, but showing he can draw fouls. This was when he might only have 15 shots showing on the sheet but also take 12-15 free throws. You can hear Chick make a joke about it. Magic was mr and 1 for a while. Abused the continuation rule like Allen Iverson.

Hes barely even going one on one in there except for when he draws fouls. You had to foul him or give him the layup. He’d have been a better than average post scorer for a big. As a wing he was unguardable.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't think this is fair to Magic who had a pass first mentality. He was certainly capable of scoring, but found himself defaulting to his teammates like Kareem and Worthy much of the time.

Scott led the team in scoring one year too. Kareem was the #1 option through 1986 so we have about the same number of years on other side of that to compare.

Magic 1980-1986: 18/8/11 on 60.8% TS, 20.6% usage
Magic 1982-1986: 18/8/11 on 61.3% TS, 20.1% usage
Magic 1987-1991: 22/7/12 on 61.1% TS, 24.4% usage
Magic 1987: 24/6/12 on 60.2% TS, 26.3% usage

So he showed he could scale up and not lose any efficiency. In 87', which I believe is the one year he led the team in scoring, his TS % was down 1% compare to the other sets of years but a 1% year-over-year difference isn't statistically significant and 60% TS is nothing to sneeze at anyway.


His career high is just below 24 ppg on 52%. If he takes more shots and averages 26 ppg, do you really think his fg% would plummet? He probably still shoots 50%

He could probably go to 26-27 PPG without any meaningful loss of efficiency. The debate seems to be how high that ceiling was. His career high games imply we are talking a 30-32 PPG type ceiling.

Even when he came back in 96' he still had a 61% TS on 22.7% usage. His minutes were down (for obvious reasons) but his per 36 line was 18/7/8 compared to his career average of 19/7/11.

[HoopsNY]

Hoops, it would be possible for Magic to score 25+ but I do not think he shoots over 50%. Here is what Magic did do the last 5 full seasons. 87 = 23.9 pts /gm and 52.2%. 88 = 19.6 pts/gm and 49.2%. 89 = 22.5 pts/gm and 50.9% 90 = 22.3 pts/gm and 48.0% and 91 = 19.4 pts/gm and 47.7%. Asking Magic to score 25+ per game could be done but anytime a player takes on a bigger scoring role, it is natural for the shooting % to dip. Plus the opposing teams are going to focus even more on Magic on the defensive side. And to be fair to Magic, for him to be at 25+ points per game, he should be getting relief from a competent point guard and at this point, my argument would be to keep Magic at the point ( you will not find anyone as good at PG) and if you want your team to score more , I would look at the other 4 positions and what I have on my roster and my bench substitutions ... just saying

I agree. My point is that if Magic does increase his volume, then there's no reason to believe his efficiency numbers take a nosedive. Magic was capable of 25+ ppg on near 50% shooting. And if he does average 25+ a night and shoots 48-49%, then that would still be amazing.

[HoopsNY]

Scott led the team in scoring one year too. Kareem was the #1 option through 1986 so we have about the same number of years on other side of that to compare.

Magic 1980-1986: 18/8/11 on 60.8% TS, 20.6% usage
Magic 1982-1986: 18/8/11 on 61.3% TS, 20.1% usage
Magic 1987-1991: 22/7/12 on 61.1% TS, 24.4% usage
Magic 1987: 24/6/12 on 60.2% TS, 26.3% usage

So he showed he could scale up and not lose any efficiency. In 87', which I believe is the one year he led the team in scoring, his TS % was down 1% compare to the other sets of years but a 1% year-over-year difference isn't statistically significant and 60% TS is nothing to sneeze at anyway.



He could probably go to 26-27 PPG without any meaningful loss of efficiency. The debate seems to be how high that ceiling was. His career high games imply we are talking a 30-32 PPG type ceiling.

Even when he came back in 96' he still had a 61% TS on 22.7% usage. His minutes were down (for obvious reasons) but his per 36 line was 18/7/8 compared to his career average of 19/7/11.

Agreed. Magic was a special player who could create his own shot. I don't believe he was limited with his arsenal as a John Stockton was or even Jason Kidd. Magic could do it all.

Interesting to note, his first 8 seasons in the league he shot terribly from 3, around 20%. He finished shooting 34% over the next five seasons. This is the sign of great players who can evolve with the game and make adjustments. Magic was one of those guys.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agreed. Magic was a special player who could create his own shot. I don't believe he was limited with his arsenal as a John Stockton was or even Jason Kidd. Magic could do it all.

Interesting to note, his first 8 seasons in the league he shot terribly from 3, around 20%. He finished shooting 34% over the next five seasons. This is the sign of great players who can evolve with the game and make adjustments. Magic was one of those guys.

Yup. Also look at his FT shooting. 79% from 1980-1984. Then 85% from 1985-1988. Then up to a whopping 90% from 1989-1991, including leading the league at 91.1% in 89'. So he showed great growth in that area as well.

[NBAGOAT]

it's a shame pretty much everyone else on that team laid an egg

[Whoah10115]

That Kblaze video is a real slay looks like.

3 of those 3s he's well behind the line.

[HoopsNY]

Yup. Also look at his FT shooting. 79% from 1980-1984. Then 85% from 1985-1988. Then up to a whopping 90% from 1989-1991, including leading the league at 91.1% in 89'. So he showed great growth in that area as well.

Yup. It would have been fun to see him playing in today's game. With his size, speed, and overall ability, there's no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't be putting up similar or even better numbers than he did in the 80s.

[Whoah10115]

Yup. It would have been fun to see him playing in today's game. With his size, speed, and overall ability, there's no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't be putting up similar or even better numbers than he did in the 80s.

He'd be the best player in basketball. By a good deal, even.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup. It would have been fun to see him playing in today's game. With his size, speed, and overall ability, there's no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't be putting up similar or even better numbers than he did in the 80s.

For sure. Forgot that angle. In today's game with an ability to play all 5 positions? :bowdown:

[Phoenix]

Magic's scoring skillset would need some modifying for today. For one you can't back down and pound down into the post like he often did, waiting for which poison the defense decided to drink ( Magic setting himself up for one of those baby hooks or passing out of the double team to someone who themselves didnt realize how open they were). He was a very opportunistic set shooter. I assume like most alltime greats his game would reflect the era he came up in. His passing though....with how spaced out the courts are now he's got more room to operate. In the 80s everything was packed in and he was threading the needle through the smallest holes at times.

[Phoenix]

Also,looking for a new avy just now and this popped up:

https://nicksloan212.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/large_birdmagicgetty.jpg?w=584

What's happening here? I don't think angle plays much into this. Both of them were listed at 6'9 but umm....

[Marchesk]

I’d say this is a more in the flow good scoring game from magic:



https://youtu.be/z8Bgx_0lTo0

Danny Manning was looking good there as well. He's a player where injuries kept him from being as good as he could have been, while still having long career. Had one of the greatest NCAA runs with underdog KU championship in 88.

[bizil]

When it comes to PASS FIRST players who are ALSO great scorers, Bron-Big O-Magic-Isiah is the Mt. Rushmore! Bron and Big O were pass first guys, BUT not as pass first as Magic and Zeke. Plus u gotta factor in the very good to great scorers Magic played with in his career at one point or another. Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes, B Scott, and McAdoo for example. So when u are a true pass first floor general like Magic, he DIDN'T need to average 25 PPG for the Lakers to win rings. When Kareem was past his prime, Magic upped the ante scoring. But he STILL had Worthy and B Scott who were also 20 PPG guys at various points in their career.

So when people discuss Magic's scoring ability, he FOR DAMN SURE was alpha dog material. He wasn't MJ-Bird-Nique-King level scorer on the perimeter. BUT Magic was the best passer on the planet, arguably the best passer of all time, AND STILL had alpha dog scoring ability! That's what made him unique even among those great scorers. He had the ability to average 25+ PPG every season in my opinion. But with his MENTALITY passing the rock, he wasn't going to do that. Even though he averaged 24 PPG for his career high.

So it wasn't about his scoring ability or killer instinct. He had BOTH of those aspects in abundance! It was the fact he was the ultimate pass first PG and put a premium MOST on that aspect. Once again, among PASS FIRST PLAYERS, Magic is the 3rd best scorer EVER! Only behind Bron and Oscar! U have to view him through that prism!