Why does Lebron always need superstars to have a chance to win?

[Walk on Water]

I already know the answer to this. But it’s very telling. Look at the talent Hakeem and Duncan had around them when they won. With Lebron you need Chris Bosh and Dywayne Wade combined with key guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Haslem.. his team was loaded and they lost to the Spurs and got lucky once. Lost to Dallas while having Wade and Bosh. If Draymond Green is not a superstar than he got whooped against Curry, Klay and KD while having Love and Irving in 2017. Shameful.

At least when KD joined a super team, he made the most of it and made it unfair. Lebron can never make it unfair. I don’t care how far Lebron can go by himself, he’s not that much better off when he has so much talent around him.

Do you think he can just have a system and win with a balanced team like Duncan? Maybe have Damion Lillard as his point guard and someone like a prime Iggy on the bench. Then make the most out of his teammates..

Winning with Bosh and Wade in Miami didn’t really prove much because the losses were so much worse than the wins were good. Even when he came back from down 3-1, the Warriors didn’t have KD and he was pretty lucky to get Green suspended and have Bogut injured.

You would think that the way the fans describe Lebron and with all the help he’s had that he’d have 7-8 rings by now.

[dreamshake]

Because he's incapable of winning a championship without at least 3 all-stars on his team. His entire NBA basketball career is a fraud.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is this 3ball or Warriorfan?

Bosh made 1 all-NBA team in his career and he is a "superstar". Irving has made two. Wade was a legit superstar but declined due to injuries. Davis is a legit superstar.

Who is the last NBA champion that wasn't stacked? People said that about Toronto but they had the 3rd best record in the NBA without Kawhi without getting a real replacement for him. Even finals losers were stacked like the Warriors, Cavs, Thunder, Spurs, Heat.

[ELITEpower23]

Is this 3ball or Warriorfan?

Bosh made 1 all-NBA team in his career and he is a "superstar". Irving has made two. Wade was a legit superstar but declined due to injuries. Davis is a legit superstar.

Who is the last NBA champion that wasn't stacked? People said that about Toronto but they had the 3rd best record in the NBA without Kawhi without getting a real replacement for him. Even finals losers were stacked like the Warriors, Cavs, Thunder, Spurs, Heat.

It's WarriorFan. He is the only one dumb enough to say this when in 2016 LeBron waxed that ass with zero all star teammates and zero all nba teammates while facing a 3 to 1 deficit

3-1 just makes sense
down 3 to 1 in the series
down 3 to 1 in all stars teammates
down 3 to 1 in all nba teammates

The legend lives on. King James!

[Roundball_Rock]

How many accounts does Warriorfan have? :lol

Are we sure BSBob is Warriorfan? I suspect it is 3ball.

[RRR3]

OP is either warriorfan or jstern.

[Uncle Drew]

False, he won with 0 All-Stars in 2016.

[warriorfan]

I already know the answer to this. But it’s very telling. Look at the talent Hakeem and Duncan had around them when they won. With Lebron you need Chris Bosh and Dywayne Wade combined with key guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Haslem.. his team was loaded and they lost to the Spurs and got lucky once. Lost to Dallas while having Wade and Bosh. If Draymond Green is not a superstar than he got whooped against Curry, Klay and KD while having Love and Irving in 2017. Shameful.

At least when KD joined a super team, he made the most of it and made it unfair. Lebron can never make it unfair. I don’t care how far Lebron can go by himself, he’s not that much better off when he has so much talent around him.

Do you think he can just have a system and win with a balanced team like Duncan? Maybe have Damion Lillard as his point guard and someone like a prime Iggy on the bench. Then make the most out of his teammates..

Winning with Bosh and Wade in Miami didn’t really prove much because the losses were so much worse than the wins were good. Even when he came back from down 3-1, the Warriors didn’t have KD and he was pretty lucky to get Green suspended and have Bogut injured.

You would think that the way the fans describe Lebron and with all the help he’s had that he’d have 7-8 rings by now.

Irrefutable.

[Im so nba'd out]

Celtics stacked the deck 1st.Once you get a taste of playing with actual talented players you never want to go back.So blame the Celtics.Gone are the days of lebron's 2nd best player being a 40 year old shaq or maurice williams


its a new era

[RRR3]

Celtics stacked the deck 1st.Once you get a taste of playing with actual talented players you never want to go back.So blame the Celtics
This. People expected LeBron to just beat a team of 4 All-Stars (and 3 HOFers) by himself.

[warriorfan]

This. People expected LeBron to just beat a team of 4 All-Stars (and 3 HOFers) by himself.

Kobe did it with Pau Gasol...LeBron didn’t have to join with the second best player in the league and another top 5 producing superstar. LeBron choked twice in 2009 and 2010 and started to panic...He looked for the easy way out.

[tpols]

the funniest thing to me is people saying he'd have more talent out west.

Like you can out do joining prime peak dwayne wade lol.

Like the mavs or spurs or even warriors had that type of second option. Not to mention all the all NBA 3rd option talent he had.

The simple answer is his AAU brand of ball gets beat by elite teamwork. So he needs extra talent to level the playing field.

[Smoke117]

That crackhead curryfan and his plethora of alts. :facepalm

[Manny98]

Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving and Chris Bosh aren't "superstars"

and Wade wasn't a superstar in 2013/2014

[light]

Ha! You admit freely that LeBron went to the Finals 8 consecutive times, and 9 times total, without any unfair teams at all, at any point.

Nice way to sabotage your own argument.

[Axe]

This thread is pretty much redundant tbh

[Walk on Water]

This. People expected LeBron to just beat a team of 4 All-Stars (and 3 HOFers) by himself.


At least get close. Harden got close twice.

[Walk on Water]

Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving and Chris Bosh aren't "superstars"

and Wade wasn't a superstar in 2013/2014


But they were supposed to be and then he made them lose their confidence.

[bullettooth]

Simple: he was never (and still isn't) good enough to win without have a team full of all-stars.

[Turbo Slayer]

Simple: he was never (and still isn't) good enough to win without have a team full of all-stars. Hypocritical, given that Jordan played with Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and Cartwright who all became all-stars at some point in their careers. So Jordan technically played with 4 all-stars (career All-Stars selections) during the 1st 3-peat.

Also Jordan played with Pippen and Rodman who were both All-Stars as well during their careers (so 2 All-Stars played with during the 2nd 3-peat).

Every Batman needs a Robin and a good supporting cast to go along with it. And this is no exception.

Yes, LeBron technically played with more All-Stars in NBA history than Michael Jordan but we can't discount the fact that some of the All-Stars LeBron played with were aging and washed or simply not their former selves (e.g. Shaq or Ben Wallace) while Michael got the benefit of Prime Pippen for multiple years.

LeBron only got Prime Wade for 1-2 years if you include 2012 but other than that Wade was injured and declining to borderline all-star status by 2014 (yes, technically Wade was an All-Star in 2014 but I'm talking in terms of impact on box scores)

So the main point that I'm talking about is that MJ and LeBron never won a title with a Robin that never became an all-star at some point in that X robin career.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pippen-seasonal-valuations.png

So Michael Jordan played with Scottie Pippen who had 5 quality seasons and 1 good season with Michael Jordan. By my count, Pippen had 5 weak MVP candidate impact type seasons and 1 all-star impact season with MJ.

Compare that with this below:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Wade-player-evaluations.png

Wade with LeBron only had 1 weak MVP candidate type season with LeBron in 2011 and then Wade slowly regressed to all-NBA impact then all-star impact then all-star impact again all in a span of 4 years.



Notes: Obviously Peak Wade was better than Peak Pippen of course but far too many people focus and base conclusions on player reputation. People act like NBA players stay the exact same version their whole careers. That's obviously not the case here.



As we can see, Wade faded from weak MVP impact to just all-star impact status in just a span of four years while Jordan had the bulk of Pippen's career with Pippen having weak MVP impact seasons 5 times with Michael Jordan.

[iamgine]

I already know the answer to this. But it’s very telling. Look at the talent Hakeem and Duncan had around them when they won. With Lebron you need Chris Bosh and Dywayne Wade combined with key guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Haslem.. his team was loaded and they lost to the Spurs and got lucky once. Lost to Dallas while having Wade and Bosh. If Draymond Green is not a superstar than he got whooped against Curry, Klay and KD while having Love and Irving in 2017. Shameful.

At least when KD joined a super team, he made the most of it and made it unfair. Lebron can never make it unfair. I don’t care how far Lebron can go by himself, he’s not that much better off when he has so much talent around him.

Do you think he can just have a system and win with a balanced team like Duncan? Maybe have Damion Lillard as his point guard and someone like a prime Iggy on the bench. Then make the most out of his teammates..

Winning with Bosh and Wade in Miami didn’t really prove much because the losses were so much worse than the wins were good. Even when he came back from down 3-1, the Warriors didn’t have KD and he was pretty lucky to get Green suspended and have Bogut injured.

You would think that the way the fans describe Lebron and with all the help he’s had that he’d have 7-8 rings by now.

Look at Hakeem and Duncan but don't look at Magic, Bird, MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell?

[Roundball_Rock]

Turbo, those charts speak for themselves. :cheers:

The issue is talent level on a team relative to competition--which is we never hear that comparative data presented. Just look at their finals competition:

1991: Worthy, Divac or Scott
1992: Porter, Kersey, Robinson
1993: Johnson, Majerle, Dumas
1996: Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins
1997: Stockton, Hornacek, ???
1998: Stockton, Hornacek, ???

2011: Kidd, Marion, Chandler
2012: Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka
2013: Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi
2014: Duncan, Kawhi, Ginobili
2015: Thompson, Green, Iggy
2016: Thompson, Green, Iggy
2017: Curry, Thompson, Green
2018: Curry, Thompson, Green

These two lists are not the same...LeBron had more absolute talent on his team but so did the opposing teams. Having more talent than a roster from 20 years ago doesn't help you in the present. :lol

Ultimately, we saw both teams with the best player removed.

Miami added Deng to replace LeBron, Whiteside got called up from the G-League, traded for Dragic. Bosh went out in February due to blood clots. Wade was injured, as usual, but healthier than he was in 2015.

Chicago "added" Pete Myers to replace LeBron, Kukoc and Kerr joined the team. Pippen, Grant missed 22 games (63 win pace with both of them)--compared to being iron men the previous three years. Cartwright missed half the season.

One team performed vastly better without its GOAT candidate than the other. Circumstances mask how bad Miami really was. Whiteside emerging in late January as a full-time starter, the Dragic traded allowed Miami to finish 15-15 (41 win pace) down the stretch. When Bosh went down they were only 22-30 (35 win pace). The talent infusion boosted them.

In games Wade/Bosh both played Miami was 13-15 (38 win pace). In games both Pippen/Grant played Chicago was at a 63 win pace. The "big" addition the Bulls made at the deadline was Luc Longley.

[Turbo Slayer]

Quality post! :cheers:

How you calculate win pace? Thanks!

[Rico2016]

Quality post! :cheers:

How you calculate win pace? Thanks!

Let's say a team played 63 games and was 49-14. Equation:

1) 82 / 63 = 1.3015
2) 1.3015 * 49 = 63.7

Win pace = 63.7

[Turbo Slayer]

Let's say a team played 63 games and was 49-14. Equation:

1) 82 / 63 = 1.3015
2) 1.3015 * 49 = 63.7

Win pace = 63.7 Book marked! Thanks for the info.

[deathawaitu]

I already know the answer to this. But it’s very telling. Look at the talent Hakeem and Duncan had around them when they won. With Lebron you need Chris Bosh and Dywayne Wade combined with key guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Haslem.. his team was loaded and they lost to the Spurs and got lucky once. Lost to Dallas while having Wade and Bosh. If Draymond Green is not a superstar than he got whooped against Curry, Klay and KD while having Love and Irving in 2017. Shameful.

At least when KD joined a super team, he made the most of it and made it unfair. Lebron can never make it unfair. I don’t care how far Lebron can go by himself, he’s not that much better off when he has so much talent around him.

Do you think he can just have a system and win with a balanced team like Duncan? Maybe have Damion Lillard as his point guard and someone like a prime Iggy on the bench. Then make the most out of his teammates..

Winning with Bosh and Wade in Miami didn’t really prove much because the losses were so much worse than the wins were good. Even when he came back from down 3-1, the Warriors didn’t have KD and he was pretty lucky to get Green suspended and have Bogut injured.

You would think that the way the fans describe Lebron and with all the help he’s had that he’d have 7-8 rings by now.

Most people know Lebron is a product of the media. But once he retires the media will move onto a "new" golden boy (maybe zion)

At the end of the day, Lebron will be remember along with other greats such as West and Baylor. Empty stats but could never get it done in the finals.

Lets look at what's the general public's first impression of all his finals

2007- Swept
2011- Choke job
2012- Lock out
2013- Ray Allen
2014- Lost by a record points margin
2015- Rise of Golden state
2016 - Kyrie
2017- Got Durant'ed
2018- Swept again

If you really think about it, Lebron never had an iconic moment in the finals. His teammates has all those moments and glory

[Boarman1]

I already know the answer to this. But it’s very telling. Look at the talent Hakeem and Duncan had around them when they won. With Lebron you need Chris Bosh and Dywayne Wade combined with key guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Haslem.. his team was loaded and they lost to the Spurs and got lucky once. Lost to Dallas while having Wade and Bosh. If Draymond Green is not a superstar than he got whooped against Curry, Klay and KD while having Love and Irving in 2017. Shameful.

At least when KD joined a super team, he made the most of it and made it unfair. Lebron can never make it unfair. I don’t care how far Lebron can go by himself, he’s not that much better off when he has so much talent around him.

Do you think he can just have a system and win with a balanced team like Duncan? Maybe have Damion Lillard as his point guard and someone like a prime Iggy on the bench. Then make the most out of his teammates..

Winning with Bosh and Wade in Miami didn’t really prove much because the losses were so much worse than the wins were good. Even when he came back from down 3-1, the Warriors didn’t have KD and he was pretty lucky to get Green suspended and have Bogut injured.

You would think that the way the fans describe Lebron and with all the help he’s had that he’d have 7-8 rings by now.


SMDH

You need talent to win, PERIOD

MJ never won anything without Scottie

Let's go over those matchups for the 2017 finals.

Steph > Kyrie even though Kyrie outplayed Steph in the 2016 finals. Even though Love is a better player than Draymond, Draymond can guard Love, it almsot makes the matchup neutral

Klay>>> JR any day, no question

LeBron took a bum Cavs team to the finals by himself, Steph didn't do that, KD can't do that, and MJ has never done it

Every finals has context, for 2016, LeBron led his team from a 3-1 deficit for the first time in NBA finals history! In game 7 everyone was still saying the Warriors were favored, they had a chance to end it on their home court. Bron got the job done

[Axe]

SMDH

You need talent to win, PERIOD

MJ never won anything without Scottie

Let's go over those matchups for the 2017 finals.

Steph > Kyrie even though Kyrie outplayed Steph in the 2016 finals. Even though Love is a better player than Draymond, Draymond can guard Love, it almsot makes the matchup neutral

Klay>>> JR any day, no question

LeBron took a bum Cavs team to the finals by himself, Steph didn't do that, KD can't do that, and MJ has never done it

Every finals has context, for 2016, LeBron led his team from a 3-1 deficit for the first time in NBA finals history! In game 7 everyone was still saying the Warriors were favored, they had a chance to end it on their home court. Bron got the job done
Bran hasn't won chips without james jones either

[Rico2016]

It's WarriorFan. He is the only one dumb enough to say this when in 2016 LeBron waxed that ass with zero all star teammates and zero all nba teammates while facing a 3 to 1 deficit

3-1 just makes sense
down 3 to 1 in the series
down 3 to 1 in all stars teammates
down 3 to 1 in all nba teammates

The legend lives on. King James!

Snatched OPs wig with the quickness

[Vino24]

Mods op is clearly an alt that we don’t need