In 2005 was Manu Ginobli the best player in the NBA?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Was Manu Ginobli the best player in the entire NBA during 2005? He has my vote.

Regular season Manu led Spurs in TS, as well as offensive win shares despite being 4th in total minutes.

In the playoffs, Manu led spurs in OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, win shares. Manu was also the clear cut best spurs offensive player in 3/4 series besides the lonely suns defense.

Playoff Spurs were +15 per 100 possessions with Manu on court and -4.4 per 100 in the 300+ minutes he was off court. Many of those minutes with Manu off had Duncan in. +20 per 100 ON-OFF. All the evidence points at Duncan being Manu's sidekick that year.

[Lebron23]

Hell no.

[Smoke117]

:facepalm

[Horatio33]

He wasn't the best player on the Spurs

[Akeem34TheDream]

OP, you need to calm down with the numbers.

[r0drig0lac]

no

[RRR3]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/jA2oLqAbACosE/200.gif

[HBK_Kliq_2]

OP, you need to calm down with the numbers.

Eye test tells me Manu was better then Duncan in 2005. Every time Manu went to the bench they sucked.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He wasn't the best player on the Spurs

Where's your proof

[Axe]

Well, that would have been believable if he had mvp and fmvp awards by having that consistency for some time..

[Smoke117]

Eye test tells me Manu was better then Duncan in 2005. Every time Manu went to the bench they sucked.

lol Got 2005 Spur games just fresh on the mind 15 years later, huh? What a bunch of horseshit. Tim Duncan only had a team high on/off of +17.5, but yeah Manu was carrying the entire team and they were awful when he wasn't playing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

lol Got 2005 Spur games just fresh on the mind 15 years later, huh? What a bunch of horseshit. Tim Duncan only had a team high on/off of +17.5, but yeah Manu was carrying the entire team and they were awful when he wasn't playing.

Read the OP: Playoff Spurs were +15 per 100 possessions with Manu on court and -4.4 per 100 in the 300+ minutes he was off court. Many of those minutes with Manu off had Duncan in. +20 per 100 ON-OFF

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well, that would have been believable if he had mvp and fmvp awards by having that consistency for some time..

Don't forget 2004 Manu as the best player beat USA and won Olympic gold medal. That was further proof of his dominance and it carried over to the NBA.

[Whoah10115]

Manu was one of the best but I think often underutilized by Popovich.

But no.

He was the real Finals MVP tho, for what it's worth.

Manu > Kawhi

[totti950]

I don't think he was the best in the NBA, but one of the best on the Spurs.

[Axe]

Don't forget 2004 Manu as the best player beat USA and won Olympic gold medal. That was further proof of his dominance and it carried over to the NBA.
But you was talking about the nba, right??

[Smoke117]

Don't forget 2004 Manu as the best player beat USA and won Olympic gold medal. That was further proof of his dominance and it carried over to the NBA.

lol. No Kobe, Allen, Mcgrady, Carter. Stop acting like he was going up against the best players at his position.

[ELITEpower23]

Geeze how much did Duncan need to win in 2007? Bowen, Horry, and 3 FMVP versus young LeBron?

Geeze, how much did LeBron beat in 2013? 4 FMVPS? Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, and Kawhi?

GOAT man GOAT man GOAT man

[tpols]

Manu was a genius player. His only weakness was durability.

He smoked a peak MVP Duncan in the olympics with scrubs as teammates.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDAyVDpB90

This is why people dont necessarily buy into the NBA media hype machine.

[Axe]

Ginobili and kawhi were former fmvps before 2013? :oldlol:

Lmao you gotta be kidding me

[RRR3]

Ginobili and kawhi were former fmvps before 2013? :oldlol:

Lmao you gotta be kidding me
That's SpaceJam2/FromDowntown, well known for his 62 IQ.

[Whoah10115]

That's SpaceJam2/FromDowntown, well known for his 62 IQ.

Oh he got better, nice.

[Axe]

That's SpaceJam2/FromDowntown, well known for his 62 IQ.
Yet, it's the same guy who kept thinking that I'm your dup, which i find very amusing. :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Geeze how much did Duncan need to win in 2007? Bowen, Horry, and 3 FMVP versus young LeBron?

Geeze, how much did LeBron beat in 2013? 4 FMVPS? Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, and Kawhi?

GOAT man GOAT man GOAT man

Kawhi was not in his prime in 2013, neither were Duncan and manu. Nice try though

[HBK_Kliq_2]

lol. No Kobe, Allen, Mcgrady, Carter. Stop acting like he was going up against the best players at his position.

He had a bunch of scrubs on his team and beat USA, enough said

[HBK_Kliq_2]

But you was talking about the nba, right??

Yes Manu beat Duncan during international play in 2004 despite Duncan having better teammates. The next year, manu advanced stats destroy Duncan during their playoff run. Something is fishy about that if you're arguing for Duncan.

[Axe]

Yes Manu beat Duncan during international play in 2004 despite Duncan having better teammates. The next year, manu advanced stats destroy Duncan during their playoff run. Something is fishy about that if you're arguing for Duncan.
But he only did so for one season, more or less?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu was one of the best but I think often underutilized by Popovich.

But no.

He was the real Finals MVP tho, for what it's worth.

Manu > Kawhi

Manu wouldn't ever have better advanced stats over Kawhi if they are both on same teams in their primes. Duncan just isn't the offensive player that Kawhi is, he consistently struggled in playoffs too often.

2004 Karl Malone was his dad
2005 Rasheed was his dad
2006 mavs go small with Keith van horn at center
2008 Pau Gasol was his dad

2007 was a very easy path. 2005 he was carried by Manu.

[Whoah10115]

Manu wouldn't ever have better advanced stats over Kawhi if they are both on same teams in their primes. Duncan just isn't the offensive player that Kawhi is, he consistently struggled in playoffs too often.

2004 Karl Malone was his dad
2005 Rasheed was his dad
2006 mavs go small with Keith van horn at center
2008 Pau Gasol was his dad

2007 was a very easy path. 2005 he was carried by Manu.

Wow.

What in the actual garbanzo bean are you talking about?

[AlternativeAcc.]

Manu was easily better than peak curry, but usually gets no love

He definitely has an argument for best player in 05 and this thread is welcomed for bringing up how underappreciated Manu is.

[ELITEpower23]

Yet, it's the same guy who kept thinking that I'm your dup, which i find very amusing. :oldlol:

its obvious you're the tranny lover rrr3 :lol

Its all good tho, you do you playa

[RRR3]

Yet, it's the same guy who kept thinking that I'm your dup, which i find very amusing. :oldlol:
:biggums: We post nothing alike and have very different opinions. I'm going to have downgrade SpaceJam2 to a 52 IQ after this little revelation.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

But he only did so for one season, more or less?

Yes Manu was clearly the best offensive player on the team in 2005, while being elite defender in his own right. Overall Manu had the best playoff run on the best team, so you can make an argument he was the best player in the world.

All of 2005-2011 Manu was spurs most important player

[Bronbron23]

Was Manu Ginobli the best player in the entire NBA during 2005? He has my vote.

Regular season Manu led Spurs in TS, as well as offensive win shares despite being 4th in total minutes.

In the playoffs, Manu led spurs in OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, win shares. Manu was also the clear cut best spurs offensive player in 3/4 series besides the lonely suns defense.

Playoff Spurs were +15 per 100 possessions with Manu on court and -4.4 per 100 in the 300+ minutes he was off court. Many of those minutes with Manu off had Duncan in. +20 per 100 ON-OFF. All the evidence points at Duncan being Manu's sidekick that year.

no but he was an elite player that's definitely underrated. He played in a true team system behind some really good players. Put him on his team with a system like dantoni's and theres no reason why he couldn't be a 25-30 points a game player in this era if he was in his prime.

People may laugh at that but hes that good. Harden is a good example of it actually. If that okc team stayed together he would of been third fiddle for his whole career putting up 15-20 a game. Put him on his own team and you see what hes doing.

[Axe]

its obvious you're the tranny lover rrr3 :lol

Its all good tho, you do you playa
Permaban worthy. :oldlol:

It looks like I'm going to have welfarefan snitch on you to jeff for being a total airhead once again. Or rather, to blaze directly instead.


Yes Manu was clearly the best offensive player on the team in 2005, while being elite defender in his own right. Overall Manu had the best playoff run on the best team, so you can make an argument he was the best player in the world.

All of 2005-2011 Manu was spurs most important player
Great, so maybe you're trying to point out that in those years, he was still in his peak back then.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wow.

What in the actual garbanzo bean are you talking about?

You brought Kawhi in this discussion and I explained why Kawhi is the best player for peaks of the 3 (Manu/Duncan/Kawhi. Kawhi in the playoffs has an offense that is more dependable. While Duncan basically only had two elite scoring years 02 and 03 before he was shut down in playoffs by the likes of Malone, Rasheed, Pau. Go look at Duncan's TS in his series against Lakers 2004 and 2008, Pistons 2005, and even 2007 finals. Kawhi is just in a much higher tier over Duncan offensively.

[Whoah10115]

You brought Kawhi in this discussion and I explained why Kawhi is the best player for peaks of the 3 (Manu/Duncan/Kawhi. Kawhi in the playoffs has an offense that is more dependable. While Duncan basically only had two elite scoring years 02 and 03 before he was shut down in playoffs by the likes of Malone, Rasheed, Pau. Go look at Duncan's TS in his series against Lakers 2004 and 2008, Pistons 2005, and even 2007 finals. Kawhi is just in a much higher tier over Duncan offensively.

Well I was bringing it up because clearly you're a Kawhi stan and you dee Duncan in his way.

I could legit choose Manu tho. Overall he won't rank ss high by the end, and I actually put that on Popp.

But Kawhi is not comparable to Tim Duncan, at all. Not to this point.

[Lebron23]

he has three nba titles,and a gold medal,how many nba titles do you have loser?
where work,manager of wendys,double shift?

Shut up real14.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well I was bringing it up because clearly you're a Kawhi stan and you dee Duncan in his way.

I could legit choose Manu tho. Overall he won't rank ss high by the end, and I actually put that on Popp.

But Kawhi is not comparable to Tim Duncan, at all. Not to this point.

Kawhi already has had 4 seasons of 6 OBPM or higher and Duncan has 0. Also Kawhi's 2019 playoffs was better then any Duncan playoff run. Duncan doesn't have any high volume scoring years outside of 2002/2003. Kawhi is well on his way to surpass Duncan in 2-3 years from now.

[RRR3]

Kawhi already has had 4 seasons of 6 OBPM or higher and Duncan has 0. Also Kawhi's 2019 playoffs was better then any Duncan playoff run. Duncan doesn't have any high volume scoring years outside of 2002/2003. Kawhi is well on his way to surpass Duncan in 2-3 years from now.
Pass the needle bro

[HBK_Kliq_2]

you for get tim Duncan lead all spurs with 24 points and 12 boards a game,you forgot about that dude

That's great and all but you can't shoot like ****ing Giannis and get away with it. Duncan had 47% TS in the finals vs pistons. If Giannis had Manu on his team, he could get carried to a title as well. Manu had an all time great playoff run similar to 2006 Wade level. Duncan put up his double doubles like 06 Shaq but Manu/Wade were the ones with all the impact

[ShawkFactory]

All of 2005-2011 Manu was spurs most important player

Ummmmm...no

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pass the needle bro

Duncan 1999-2007 8 year prime
Kawhi 2016-present 4 year prime

All Kawhi needs to do is stay on this pace 4 more seasons and he's better then Duncan. Ages 29-32 for a guy who doesn't rely on athleticism. Its very possible kawhi passes him up.

Remember Duncan had 4 years where he wasted himself in his early to mid 30s! (2008-2012).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ummmmm...no

When they let Manu be clear best player in regular season, spurs offense suddenly jumped into top 3 offense! No Duncan led offense has ever been top 3 ranked.

[Smoke117]

Duncan 1999-2007 8 year prime
Kawhi 2016-present 4 year prime

All Kawhi needs to do is stay on this pace 4 more seasons and he's better then Duncan. Ages 29-32 for a guy who doesn't rely on athleticism. Its very possible kawhi passes him up.

Remember Duncan had 4 years where he wasted himself in his early to mid 30s! (2008-2012).

Time to bank this clowns newest alt.

[ShawkFactory]

When they let Manu be clear best player in regular season, spurs offense suddenly jumped into top 3 offense! No Duncan led offense has ever been top 3 ranked.

Watch the games dude. After 2003 every time Duncan touched the ball he was doubled immediately. The defense was always focused on him. Manu benefited

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Watch the games dude. After 2003 every time Duncan touched the ball he was doubled immediately. The defense was always focused on him. Manu benefited

How come that didn't result in Tim Duncan being more impactful then Manu? Shaq was still getting double teamed in 2006 finals but it doesn't take away from Wade's greatness.Prince was considered an elite defender back then and he was guarding Manu, while Duncan throws up bricks. Every superstar draws attention, that doesn't give them the right to shoot terrible and average 2 assists like Duncan did.

Imagine if Jordan was beaten by Pippen in BPM, OBPM, TS, win shares. Would Jordan be able to say "its ok because I was the one getting attention" that's not how it works.

[iamgine]

2005 Manu was a beast. Tim Duncan was the better player obviously but it's like 2011 Lebron and Wade. For a moment there we wonder.

[Horatio33]

I think OP looks at spreadsheets instead of watching basketball.

[Axe]

I think OP looks at spreadsheets instead of watching basketball.
:roll:

[DoctorP]

https://i.ibb.co/bLRKPh0/nba.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Manu was never the best player or anything close to it.

[Sulico]

He was.
In 2005 he was 3rd best regular season player and by far best playoffs player, which puts him as the best player overall.

Since KG, Lebron and Kobe didn't get to playoffs, Dirk choked, Nash wasn't all that impressive, while Billups didn't have great RS, the only Manu's real competition for the best player of 2005 was his own teammate - Timmy D.
And Timmy was better than Manu in RS. But just a little bit. And was so much worse in the playoffs, there is no real argument for him over Manu.

[tpols]

He was.
In 2005 he was 3rd best regular season player and by far best playoffs player, which puts him as the best player overall.

Since KG, Lebron and Kobe didn't get to playoffs, Dirk choked, Nash wasn't all that impressive, while Billups didn't have great RS, the only Manu's real competition for the best player of 2005 was his own teammate - Timmy D.
And Timmy was better than Manu in RS. But just a little bit. And was so much worse in the playoffs, there is no real argument for him over Manu.

it's a dirty secret than manu and even parker outplayed duncan in playoffs for runs... he never get any hate for it like other top GOATs.

[RRR3]

He was.
In 2005 he was 3rd best regular season player and by far best playoffs player, which puts him as the best player overall.

Since KG, Lebron and Kobe didn't get to playoffs, Dirk choked, Nash wasn't all that impressive, while Billups didn't have great RS, the only Manu's real competition for the best player of 2005 was his own teammate - Timmy D.
And Timmy was better than Manu in RS. But just a little bit. And was so much worse in the playoffs, there is no real argument for him over Manu.
I suppose you think Manu takes those teams to the playoffs, Stephonit :lol

[Axe]

He was.
In 2005 he was 3rd best regular season player and by far best playoffs player, which puts him as the best player overall.

Since KG, Lebron and Kobe didn't get to playoffs, Dirk choked, Nash wasn't all that impressive, while Billups didn't have great RS, the only Manu's real competition for the best player of 2005 was his own teammate - Timmy D.
And Timmy was better than Manu in RS. But just a little bit. And was so much worse in the playoffs, there is no real argument for him over Manu.
He's only the best sixth man in that team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

it's a dirty secret than manu and even parker outplayed duncan in playoffs for runs... he never get any hate for it like other top GOATs.

Manu was best player on the 2011 offense that was ranked #2

Manu led playoffs in VORP during a title run.

How many other players have led top 3 offenses and lead playoffs in VORP? Criminally underrated player.

[SATAN]

ish is the only place I've ever seen this kind of argument about Manu. Everyone I know always highly respected his talent and liked him as a player in general but absolutely NO ONE has ever thought Manu was the best at any period. It's absolutely insane the shit that pops up on this forum/mental asylum. You can sight some random stat all day but he just wasn't that guy, despite being pretty skilled.

[tpols]

Manu was best player on the 2011 offense that was ranked #2

Manu led playoffs in VORP during a title run.

How many other players have led top 3 offenses and lead playoffs in VORP? Criminally underrated player.



The NBA is an entertainment sports league that showcases athleticism.

Anybody that's been to a live game before knows the excitement you feel when a big jam happens and the crowd roars.

It makes money.

The euro style of playing is more in tune with what the founder James Naismith had in mind.

https://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphics/naismith_james.jpg

An exhibition of skill, teamwork, and ball movement.

Which is why Manu is underrated.

and why teams that exhibit those traits still tend to win much more despite the rules catering to their opponents favor for ratings.

[Axe]

The NBA is an entertainment sports league that showcases athleticism.

Anybody that's been to a live game before knows the excitement you feel when a big jam happens and the crowd roars.

It makes money.

The euro style of playing is more in tune with what the founder James Naismith had in mind.

https://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphics/naismith_james.jpg

An exhibition of skill, teamwork, and ball movement.

Which is why Manu is underrated.

and why teams that exhibit those traits still tend to win much more despite the rules catering to their opponents favor for ratings.
This post makes me wonder if all folks here in ish even know that basketball was invented by a canadian.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's only the best sixth man in that team.

Manu started the entire finals series and was clear cut best player in 3/4 wins. His first start was vs Seattle in 2nd round when he scored 39 points. Duncan/Manu were the unstoppable duo with godly synergy like Jordan/Pippen, while tony parker was the replaceable 3rd wheel like Horace Grant.

[Axe]

Manu started the entire finals series and was clear cut best player in 3/4 wins. His first start was vs Seattle in 2nd round when he scored 39 points. Duncan/Manu were the unstoppable duo with godly synergy like Jordan/Pippen, while tony parker was the replaceable 3rd wheel like Horace Grant.
If he's not sixth man, then i guess he's some sort of a special role player for the spurs.

[tpols]

The NBA is an entertainment sports league that showcases athleticism.

Anybody that's been to a live game before knows the excitement you feel when a big jam happens and the crowd roars.

It makes money.

The euro style of playing is more in tune with what the founder James Naismith had in mind.

https://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphics/naismith_james.jpg

An exhibition of skill, teamwork, and ball movement.

Which is why Manu is underrated.

and why teams that exhibit those traits still tend to win much more despite the rules catering to their opponents favor for ratings.


This post makes me wonder if all folks here in ish even know that basketball was invented by a canadian.

i doubt they do...

too bad it was hijacked by american capitalism.

[Carbine]

He was.
In 2005 he was 3rd best regular season player and by far best playoffs player, which puts him as the best player overall.

Since KG, Lebron and Kobe didn't get to playoffs, Dirk choked, Nash wasn't all that impressive, while Billups didn't have great RS, the only Manu's real competition for the best player of 2005 was his own teammate - Timmy D.
And Timmy was better than Manu in RS. But just a little bit. And was so much worse in the playoffs, there is no real argument for him over Manu.

By far the best playoff player?

Tim was the #1 scorer and rebounder.

He was so much more important on defense too.

Was Manu a really, really important piece sure he was. They don't win without him. He wasn't BY FAR the best player in the playoffs though, that's just insane. Nobody, and I mean nobody thought Manu was the playoff MVP (in other words, outplayed Duncan in the 2005 playoffs) back in 2005. And rightfully so.

[Axe]

i doubt they do...

too bad it was hijacked by american capitalism.
They need to take credit for something popular so that they would be relevant all over around the world.

[light]

Was Manu Ginobli the best player in the entire NBA during 2005? He has my vote.

Regular season Manu led Spurs in TS, as well as offensive win shares despite being 4th in total minutes.

In the playoffs, Manu led spurs in OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, win shares. Manu was also the clear cut best spurs offensive player in 3/4 series besides the lonely suns defense.

Playoff Spurs were +15 per 100 possessions with Manu on court and -4.4 per 100 in the 300+ minutes he was off court. Many of those minutes with Manu off had Duncan in. +20 per 100 ON-OFF. All the evidence points at Duncan being Manu's sidekick that year.

Well he didn't receive a single MVP vote that season so I'm going to say no.

[light]

They need to take credit for something popular so that they would be relevant all over around the world.

The game was invented in Massachusetts, so it's like citizenship - if you're born here you're American.

Naismith eventually became an American citizen anyway. He spent most of his life in the US. His parents were not born in Canada (they were Scots) so I imagine he only had weak ties to the country.

[Kgisbigticket21]

Kg and Duncan were clearly better

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If he's not sixth man, then i guess he's some sort of a special role player for the spurs.

If you just see Manu as an average 6th man, you don't understand the game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

By far the best playoff player?

Tim was the #1 scorer and rebounder.

He was so much more important on defense too.

Was Manu a really, really important piece sure he was. They don't win without him. He wasn't BY FAR the best player in the playoffs though, that's just insane. Nobody, and I mean nobody thought Manu was the playoff MVP (in other words, outplayed Duncan in the 2005 playoffs) back in 2005. And rightfully so.

Manu is +13 on TS% how is Duncan the one that's scoring better.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The NBA is an entertainment sports league that showcases athleticism.

Anybody that's been to a live game before knows the excitement you feel when a big jam happens and the crowd roars.

It makes money.

The euro style of playing is more in tune with what the founder James Naismith had in mind.

https://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphics/naismith_james.jpg

An exhibition of skill, teamwork, and ball movement.

Which is why Manu is underrated.

and why teams that exhibit those traits still tend to win much more despite the rules catering to their opponents favor for ratings.

Exactly I agree. Don't forget Manu brought the Euro step to the NBA, so he had massive influence as well.

[Axe]

If you just see Manu as an average 6th man, you don't understand the game.
Except i never implied anything that he's just average, as he's probably one of the best ones to play for his team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Except i never implied anything that he's just average, as he's probably one of the best ones to play for his team.

Oh ok I thought you were degrading him as a 6th man. I should of known better since you're a good poster.

[Axe]

Oh ok I thought you were degrading him as a 6th man. I should of known better since you're a good poster.
Umm... thanks?

Anyway, manu is probably the greatest Argentinian to have played in the league.

[Sulico]

Oh ok I thought you were degrading him as a 6th man. I should of known better since you're a good poster.

GOD I hope it's a sarcasm

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Umm... thanks?

Anyway, manu is probably the greatest Argentinian to have played in the league.

Greatest international player ever not named Hakeem or Dirk I would say. I take Manu over Steve Nash no question.

[Genaro]

Best in the league? I don't think so. I would take KG, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk and a few others before him. But I do think he should've won the FMVP trophy.

[Whoah10115]

This thread exists to prop Kawhi as the Spurs' greatest ever player.

[rmt]

Have not read the thread but OP is really off track on this one. Manu didn't even make ANY All-NBA team in 2005 much less be the best player in the NBA.

Manu
2 time All-Star (2005, 2011)
2 time All-NBA 3rd Team (2008, 2011)
6th Man of the Year (2008)