1996 Bulls without Jordan

[aceman]

What if Jordan retired again 3 weeks before 1995/96 season? Kukoc comes into lineup like he did for Harper in 96 finals. How many games do Bulls win?
Do they win chip?

[light]

Yeah the Bulls still win the chip.

Bron GOAT.

[goozeman]

Same problem they had in 1994 and 1995 -- not enough scoring.

[aceman]

Same problem they had in 1994 and 1995 -- not enough scoring.

How do you know that was problem? In 1994 New York has far worse offense & advanced to finals

[goozeman]

How do you know that was problem? In 1994 New York has far worse offense & advanced to finals

The problem is that you run into all kinds of alternative time lines and what ifs. The Bulls were likely trading Pippen if Jordan doesn't come back. Even when they signed Harper there was speculation that this mean the Pippen days were numbered. Pippen himself was court side interviews demanding trades in 1995, so I don't think it happens regardless. But assuming you somehow got all those guys together without Jordan, they would be a very good defensive team (maybe best defensive team in the league) and might possibly make the finals. The real issue I have is that I think by 95-96 Pippen was already starting to decline. His numbers against good defense in the playoffs reflect that, so he would have been even a more liability as the go-to guy. Pippen to me was actually at his best in the first three-peat and up until probably 1995. Maybe you could cobble together enough scoring with Harper-Rodman-Pippen anchoring a three-headed monster on defense, but it's a big if. Even with Jordan the Bulls actually struggled against teams like the Pacers and the Jazz series were closer than most people want to admit with the Bulls barely eeking a bunch of close games to take the ship both years.

[ELITEpower23]

Trade out MJ for Klay Thompson and Bulls are fine.

[aceman]

The problem is that you run into all kinds of alternative time lines and what ifs. The Bulls were likely trading Pippen if Jordan doesn't come back. Even when they signed Harper there was speculation that this mean the Pippen days were numbered. Pippen himself was court side interviews demanding trades in 1995, so I don't think it happens regardless. But assuming you somehow got all those guys together without Jordan, they would be a very good defensive team (maybe best defensive team in the league) and might possibly make the finals. The real issue I have is that I think by 95-96 Pippen was already starting to decline. His numbers against good defense in the playoffs reflect that, so he would have been even a more liability as the go-to guy. Pippen to me was actually at his best in the first three-peat and up until probably 1995. Maybe you could cobble together enough scoring with Harper-Rodman-Pippen anchoring a three-headed monster on defense, but it's a big if. Even with Jordan the Bulls actually struggled against teams like the Pacers and the Jazz series were closer than most people want to admit with the Bulls barely eeking a bunch of close games to take the ship both years.

Pippen played mostly spot up shooter alongside Jordan which wasn't his strength. Without him he'd post up more & so would Kukoc. Pippen struggled against Knicks but everybody did with their spoiling defense. He'd match up better against other teams for example Utah - who there could defend him in thr low post?
In 1995 combo of Pippen & Kukoc without Jordan averaged 22 & 16.5. Remember without Jordan efficiency of the rest of team goes up because ball gets passed more & there are more open looks.
Offense remains within top 10 while defense still best in league - I think this team still wins 60+

[Marchesk]

Sonics beat the Knicks in the finals. The Bulls can make the ECF, but they just don't have enough offense without Jordan.

[aceman]

Sonics beat the Knicks in the finals. The Bulls can make the ECF, but they just don't have enough offense without Jordan.

Ppl saying bulls would lack offense then chose a team with worse offense in 1994 & 1995 to make finals

[Marchesk]

Ppl saying bulls would lack offense then chose a team with worse offense in 1994 & 1995 to make finals

Against excellent playoff defenses like the Knicks and Sonics, the Bulls simply don't have enough scoring. You also lose Jordan's defense, playmaking, clutch shooting and refusal to lose.

[aceman]

Against excellent playoff defenses like the Knicks and Sonics, the Bulls simply don't have enough scoring. You also lose Jordan's defense, playmaking, clutch shooting and refusal to lose.

Two of those things don't exist; clutch is not real - if you always take shot at end of game sometimes you make it. You could make argument Toni was more clutch cause he seemed to hit them more regularly. Refusal to lose is nice but MJ always had that & it didn't help him until Scottie arrived.
Bulls will miss playmaking but they would have two playmakers on court in Pippen & Kukoc who would be better than a lot of the other teams at the time.
Funny you don't see lack of offense holding 1996 Knicks back? Bulls without Jordan always put up better numbers then those guys.

[goozeman]

Two of those things don't exist; clutch is not real - if you always take shot at end of game sometimes you make it. You could make argument Toni was more clutch cause he seemed to hit them more regularly. Refusal to lose is nice but MJ always had that & it didn't help him until Scottie arrived.
Bulls will miss playmaking but they would have two playmakers on court in Pippen & Kukoc who would be better than a lot of the other teams at the time.
Funny you don't see lack of offense holding 1996 Knicks back? Bulls without Jordan always put up better numbers then those guys.

Except Pippen and Kukoc are not better play makers, lol. That's the weak link to your argument. Pippen was perimeter player anyway. He didn't play in the post, and if he did he would get eaten alive by guys like Kemp, Ewing, and Malone. All those guys were first tier defenders. Dude was way too skinny to bang.

[Soundwave]

That's pretty easy ... Orlando wins the championship.

Which would be interesting because then Shaq almost definitely does not go to LA. Which means then the Lakers don't trade Divac most likely either, which means Kobe Bryant plays in Charlotte.

The other thing is in this hypothetical time line, Scottie Pippen isn't even on the Bulls most likely. Just before Jordan came back, Pippen was asking for a trade out to Phoenix specifically saying he did not want to play for the Bulls any longer.

Chicago basically got bailed out massively because of a random baseball strike.

[aceman]

Except Pippen and Kukoc are not better play makers, lol. That's the weak link to your argument. Pippen was perimeter player anyway. He didn't play in the post, and if he did he would get eaten alive by guys like Kemp, Ewing, and Malone. All those guys were first tier defenders. Dude was way too skinny to bang.

Offcourse losing Jordan would weaken the offense the question is how much? Both Pippen & Kukoc are above average player makers - I believe an offense built around those two would be among the top third in the league.
In the triangle Jordan got most of his shots in thr post. In his absence Pippen & Kukoc would get shots there as both adept at posting up smaller players.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ppl saying bulls would lack offense then chose a team with worse offense in 1994 & 1995 to make finals

Yup, a prime example of bad faith/selective arguments.

The Bulls without MJ had the 8th best offense when Pippen played in 94' and 10th in 95' before MJ returned. Yet these same people will hype the Knicks and Pacers. Let's check the tape.

1994 offensive ranks: Bulls (healthy) 8th, Pacers 11th, Bulls (actual) 14th, Knicks 16th
1995 offensive ranks: Pacers 8th, Bulls 10th (pre-MJ), Knicks 16th

The Bulls had a better defense than the Pacers both years. The Knicks were #1 both years but the Bulls were #6 in 94' (don't have the Pippen game data for defense) and #2 in 95'.


Against excellent playoff defenses like the Knicks and Sonics, the Bulls simply don't have enough scoring

The Bulls' offense performed much better against the Knicks offense than any of their other 94' opponents:

What about offensive rating? The Knicks' average dRating was 98.2 so the number in parentheses compares against the average.

Offensive Rating Against the 94' Knicks (Playoffs)

Nets: 95.9 (-2.3)
Bulls: 106.7 (+8.5)
Pacers: 100.1 (+1.9)
Rockets: 101.0 (+2.8)

So the Nets were slightly worse, the Pacers and Rockets slightly better. The Bulls were the only standout, as their offense performed 9 points better than the Knicks' season long average rating.

The "Bulls offense sucked in the postseason" is a myth created by cherry picking Jordan stans--which is why you don't hear a peep about how the other three teams did against the same defense.


Offcourse losing Jordan would weaken the offense the question is how much?

They went from +5 to +2 (with Pippen) in real ORtg from 93' to 94'. When he returned, they went from +1 to +4. That suggests 3 points. The Bulls were ranked 10th in 95' without MJ, improved to 5th with him.


The numbers for Pippen are +5 in 94' and +5 again in 98' to give us another superstar Bull benchmark. The Bulls were 13th in offense without Pippen in 98', 4th with him. In 94' it was 8th versus 21st.

The truth is for all the dissing of the 94' and 95' Bulls, they were comparable to the Knicks and Pacers those years. If they indeed sucked, people implicitly are saying MJ's competition sucked (not their intent but the logical conclusion. If Team A sucks and Team A is comparable to Team B and Team C--both who still have their best player--that means...).