Timmy vs. Shaq in the playoffs

[LoneyROY7]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EacYbmOXkAA44K4.jpg

Stonewall. Timmy.

What a f*cking legend. The greatest defensive leader outside of Bill Russell. Put a franchise on his back for 20 years.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Smoke117]

Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'neal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> James Haren.

/thread.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Left off 2004

Shaq 22 points 60% TS
Duncan 20 points 53% TS

[999Guy]

Duncan’s true peak in this stretch. Especially after the injury. 01-03 was a monstrous 3-year run.

04-07 are clearly not on this level but it gets bunched in.

[Dr Hawk]

Really like Duncan's personality.

[Doranku]

Yeah, kinda dumb the graphic doesn't include 2004 but still, can't ignore how good Timmy was. A peak Shaq was arguably the most dominant force the NBA playoffs has ever seen, but Timmy played him to a standstill when they went H2H.

[tpols]

David Robinson had something to do with that.

[Akeem34TheDream]

The ultimate franchise player

[Axe]

Surprisingly, both of these big men only missed the postseason once in their respective careers while the teams they play for have qualified in the playoffs each year.

[Axe]

Duncan is .179 in long range

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The ultimate franchise player

What about Shaq? Shaq outplayed Duncan in 2001 and 2004. Shaq also won 3/5 years. Shaq's offensive stats in 2003 are actually better then Duncan as well but Kobe decided to take 65 more shots then Shaq and Lakers lost.

[Rico2016]

What about Shaq? Shaq outplayed Duncan in 2001 and 2004. Shaq also won 3/5 years. Shaq's offensive stats in 2003 are actually better then Duncan as well but Kobe decided to take 65 more shots then Shaq and Lakers lost.

Length matters. Ask MJ

[Marchesk]

shaq won beat duncans ass in 2000 2001 and 2002,
shaq was unstoppable back then

I wonder if Shaq had any help doing that. Any of his Laker teammates step up? Was there a Spurs killer that tipped the balance, perhaps?

[Marchesk]

Length matters. Ask MJ

Sure aren't asking Lebron.

[Whoah10115]

What about Shaq? Shaq outplayed Duncan in 2001 and 2004. Shaq also won 3/5 years. Shaq's offensive stats in 2003 are actually better then Duncan as well but Kobe decided to take 65 more shots then Shaq and Lakers lost.

Duncan wrecked the Lakers in 2003. Was incredible to watch. Duncan had more assists and scored 2.7 more PPG, shooting 53%, and 7% better from the line.

So Shaq didn't have better offensive stats. Not a Kobe issue. Kobe averaged 32.3 a game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan wrecked the Lakers in 2003. Was incredible to watch. Duncan had more assists and scored 2.7 more PPG, shooting 53%, and 7% better from the line.

So Shaq didn't have better offensive stats. Not a Kobe issue. Kobe averaged 32.3 a game.

Kobe was having a meltdown that year about Shaq's 3 finals MVPS, so he threw the series away and didn't get Shaq involved enough.

Despite all that, Shaq had a better TS, eFG% then Duncan. Shaq also had just .1 less in GmSc compared to Duncan despite taking 19 less shots. Shaq also shot 12% better then Kobe. Shaq should of been the leading FG shooter he was always the Lakers best player.

[Axe]

What about Shaq? Shaq outplayed Duncan in 2001 and 2004. Shaq also won 3/5 years. Shaq's offensive stats in 2003 are actually better then Duncan as well but Kobe decided to take 65 more shots then Shaq and Lakers lost.
Before the '99-00 season, shaq kept getting harassed by duncan and veteran robinson. The lakers were just a regular season juggernaut before phil came to be their mastermind.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lead league in FG%

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

Average over 25PPG in a regular season

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

You Duncan fellas need to lay off GOAT Shaq hahaha. Duncan is a great player in his own right though as well I agree.

[Axe]

Because shaq usually relied on dunks to maintain his fg%. That big man could have been better in defense and rebounds.

[Rico2016]

Sure aren't asking Lebron.

King Length? Why not?

LeLength

[LoneyROY7]

Lead league in FG%

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

Average over 25PPG in a regular season

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

You Duncan fellas need to lay off GOAT Shaq hahaha. Duncan is a great player in his own right though as well I agree.

You can give Stonewall Timmy the ball in the clutch and say win us the game. He'll take his man right to block and bust his ass or hit him with a sweet middy off the glass. You couldn't do the same with Diesel b/c he was such a FT liability...it was hard for him to be factor in those waning moments. He needed a Kobe or a Wade to handle those kind of situations for him.

Timmy had it all. Leadership. Talent. Clutch. Drive. You just knew when he was on the floor, his team had a great chance to win the game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You can give Stonewall Timmy the ball in the clutch and say win us the game. He'll take his man right to block and bust his ass or hit him with a sweet middy off the glass. You couldn't do the same with Diesel b/c he was such a FT liability...it was hard for him to be factor in those waning moments. He needed a Kobe or a Wade to handle those kind of situations for him.

Timmy had it all. Leadership. Talent. Clutch. Drive. You just knew when he was on the floor, his team had a great chance to win the game.

Shaq went 11/15 on freethrows in game 7 vs kings 2002 in an overtime game. That's very clutch. Shaq also had a +10 eFG% over Kobe in that tough Kings series.

Game 7 2000 Shaq went 8/12 on freethrows nearly 67% another clutch close out

Shaq just had more dominance then Duncan, he had the 3peat and Duncan never won back to back. Duncan was much more consistent defensively. Its really a tough call but peaks I think you pick Shaq because the offensive gap and Shaq still anchored #1 defense in 99-2000 as well

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Because shaq usually relied on dunks to maintain his fg%. That big man could have been better in defense and rebounds.

Shaq has 3 seasons at 13+ rebounds per game and Duncan has 0. Shaq was an outstanding rebounder. Don't forget 1999-2000 shaq had lakers at #1 defense

[Horatio33]

Shaq has 3 seasons at 13+ rebounds per game and Duncan has 0. Shaq was an outstanding rebounder. Don't forget 1999-2000 shaq had lakers at #1 defense

As we have established, all you know about basketball is looking at statistics.

[Axe]

Shaq has 3 seasons at 13+ rebounds per game and Duncan has 0. Shaq was an outstanding rebounder. Don't forget 1999-2000 shaq had lakers at #1 defense
I mean in the long run, he could have stayed that way.

In his last year with the lakers, he became worse and the zenmaster would scowl at him for being afraid to block the shots of his on-court rivals.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

As we have established, all you know about basketball is looking at statistics.

I've watched every playoff game from the all time greats in their primes. I was making a case for Manu as the best player in the NBA in 2005, his traditional stats are not even impressive.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I mean in the long run, he could have stayed that way.

In his last year with the lakers, he became worse and the zenmaster would scowl at him for being afraid to block the shots of his on-court rivals.

2002 Lakers were still 6th ranked defense and in 2004 vs spurs Shaq averaged 4 blocks per game. Shaq's defense is no Duncan or Hakeem but it was still elite in 2000 and much better then average for most of his prime.

[Uncle Drew]

Lead league in FG%

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

Average over 25PPG in a regular season

Shaq: 10 times
Duncan: 0 times

You Duncan fellas need to lay off GOAT Shaq hahaha. Duncan is a great player in his own right though as well I agree.

First of all, Duncan played outside as much as he played inside, that's a dumb notion. Furthermore, the Spurs played at snail pace for the majority of Duncan's prime. It's hard to lead the league in scoring or score more than x on average when you average way less possessions than the opposition in the first place. In the end, Duncan won more than Shaq despite playing with less talent. Why?

[Uncle Drew]

Per 100 possessions, Duncan's scoring average is on par with ''scoring at will'' Hakeem, peak for peak, prime for prime, career for career.

[r0drig0lac]

What about Shaq? Shaq (and Kobe) outplayed Duncan in 2001 and 2004. Shaq also won 3/5 years. Shaq's offensive stats in 2003 are actually better then Duncan as well but Kobe decided to take 65 more shots then Shaq and Lakers lost.

fixed

[Axe]

2002 Lakers were still 6th ranked defense and in 2004 vs spurs Shaq averaged 4 blocks per game. Shaq's defense is no Duncan or Hakeem but it was still elite in 2000 and much better then average for most of his prime.
Well, the spurs still had more chips from '99-07 than the shaq/kobe-led lakers from '96-04.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well, the spurs still had more chips from '99-07 than the shaq/kobe-led lakers from '96-04.

Shaq had like nick van axel as his 2nd best player in the 90s with lakers, that's not fair. Duncan had two hall of famers in tony and manu. Shaq has also never been outplayed by Kobe in the 4 finals he played with Lakers. While Duncan was outplayed by Manu in 05, Parker in 07.

Lakers didn't stop winning titles until Kobe started causing drama and not allowing Shaq to be the alpha. Kobe 65 more shots then Shaq in 03 vs spurs is unacceptable. Shaq carried Kobe in 02 vs kings and that Kings team was far better then the 03 Spurs.

[Uncle Drew]

Shaq had like nick van axel as his 2nd best player in the 90s with lakers, that's not fair. Duncan had two hall of famers in tony and manu. Shaq has also never been outplayed by Kobe in the 4 finals he played with Lakers. While Duncan was outplayed by Manu in 05, Parker in 07.

Lakers didn't stop winning titles until Kobe started causing drama and not allowing Shaq to be the alpha. Kobe 65 more shots then Shaq in 03 vs spurs is unacceptable. Shaq carried Kobe in 02 vs kings and that Kings team was far better then the 03 Spurs.

Duncan definitely wasn't outplayed by Parker in 2007. What series did you watch?

[Whoah10115]

Duncan definitely wasn't outplayed by Parker in 2007. What series did you watch?

Parker was clearly better in the Finals.

Kobe outplayed Shaq against Spurs in 03, hence more shots.

And HBK;

Kobe often outplayed Shaq in Western Conference Playoffs the 2nd and 3rd rings, and in fact was better overall in those runs into the Finals.

Adding up his shot attempts and then falling back on efficiency...Shaq is a big man and who plays closer to the basket than anyone in the last 40 years..so that's ridiculous.

[SouBeachTalents]

Parker was clearly better in the Finals.

Kobe outplayed Shaq against Spurs in 03, hence more shots.

And HBK;

Kobe often outplayed Shaq in Western Conference Playoffs the 2nd and 3rd rings, and in fact was better overall in those runs into the Finals.

Adding up his shot attempts and then falling back on efficiency...Shaq is a big man and who plays closer to the basket than anyone in the last 40 years..so that's ridiculous.
Shaq was better than Kobe in their run to the Finals in '02, although Kobe was better against the Spurs that year

[RRR3]

Shaq was better than Kobe in their run to the Finals in '02, although Kobe was better against the Spurs that year
He was obviously better in 00 too, but to be fair that was before Kobe really exploded offensively.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan definitely wasn't outplayed by Parker in 2007. What series did you watch?

Finals stats Parker was better is all im saying. Kobe never came close to Shaq in the finals.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Parker was clearly better in the Finals.

Kobe outplayed Shaq against Spurs in 03, hence more shots.

And HBK;

Kobe often outplayed Shaq in Western Conference Playoffs the 2nd and 3rd rings, and in fact was better overall in those runs into the Finals.

Adding up his shot attempts and then falling back on efficiency...Shaq is a big man and who plays closer to the basket than anyone in the last 40 years..so that's ridiculous.

Ok so Kobe played better against Spurs in 2001. It was a 5 game series easy series win and it wasn't in the finals. Shaq had to carry Kobe against the kings in 2002, the finals 2000 shaq averaged 38 to Kobe's 15 points and basically every other finals they were together.

Shaq had a combination of athleticism strength and nice touch around the basket that made him a 10 time FG% champion. You can make up any excuses you want, shaq was always receiving more fouls then anybody in NBA history. If shaq shot freethrows at a 70% rate in 2000 finals, he's averaging like 50PPG.

[Uncle Drew]

Finals stats Parker was better is all im saying. Kobe never came close to Shaq in the finals.

That's not true either. Duncan led the team in every stat except scoring (which barely factor for defense) and was the best player in the series whenever on the floor.

[Uncle Drew]

Parker was clearly better in the Finals.

:oldlol: God no. Duncan was the best player every second he was on the floor, and I say that as a Cavs fan.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That's not true either. Duncan led the team in every stat except scoring (which barely factor for defense) and was the best player in the series whenever on the floor.

Parker had 11% better TS and 6 points higher average

Ginobli had nearly equal points per game with a 9% better TS

Duncan was the 3rd worst scorer that series.

[rmt]

Shaq had like nick van axel as his 2nd best player in the 90s with lakers, that's not fair. Duncan had two hall of famers in tony and manu. Shaq has also never been outplayed by Kobe in the 4 finals he played with Lakers. While Duncan was outplayed by Manu in 05, Parker in 07.

Lakers didn't stop winning titles until Kobe started causing drama and not allowing Shaq to be the alpha. Kobe 65 more shots then Shaq in 03 vs spurs is unacceptable. Shaq carried Kobe in 02 vs kings and that Kings team was far better then the 03 Spurs.

Manu did not outplay Duncan in 05 Finals - DET's defensive focus was on Duncan who got their big men in foul trouble and opened up the court for his team mates.

[SouBeachTalents]

Parker had 11% better TS and 6 points higher average

Ginobli had nearly equal points per game with a 9% better TS

Duncan was the 3rd worst scorer that series.
There's more to basketball than scoring. Parker is a legitimate debate, but there's absolutely no argument for Manu being better than Duncan that series. Duncan was significantly better in 3 of the 4 games

[rmt]

Parker had 11% better TS and 6 points higher average

Ginobli had nearly equal points per game with a 9% better TS

Duncan was the 3rd worst scorer that series.

Parker 24.5 pts 5 rebs 3.3 assts 0.8 stl - 57.1%FG
Duncan 18.3 pts 11.5 rebs 3.8 assts 1.3 stls 2.3 blks - 44.6%FG
Manu 17.8 pts 5.8 rebs 2.5 assts 1.3 stl - 43.5%FG

And more importantly, Duncan closed off the paint to Lebron forcing him into jump shots with Bowen all over him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu did not outplay Duncan in 05 Finals - DET's defensive focus was on Duncan who got their big men in foul trouble and opened up the court for his team mates.

Duncan got them in foul trouble so why is he shooting 47% TS? He still struggled himself. Lets look at the spurs wins that series.

Game 1 win Manu had 26 points 73% TS and 14.9 BPM. Playing at an all-time great level

Game 2 win Manu had 27 points 90% TS and a BPM of 27.4 are you kidding me? Easy to win when you have a teammate playing like Michael Jordan.

Game 5 win was the Robert Horry bailout game when he scored 20 points in 2nd half carrying spurs late 4th quarter and overtime. Horry had the game winner and also had a 14.4 BPM

Game 7 win Manu carries Duncan with 23 points 75% TS and a 14.1 BPM. While Duncan has a 42% TS and a -1.2 BPM

So in other words, Manu was robbed of finals MVP and spurs probably lose the series without Horry in game 5 suddenly start shooting like he's Dirk Nowitski.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

There's more to basketball than scoring. Parker is a legitimate debate, but there's absolutely no argument for Manu being better than Duncan that series. Duncan was significantly better in 3 of the 4 games

I do agree Duncan was the best overall player in 2007, he wasn't a gimp being carried by Manu like 2005. However, Duncan was still statistically the 3rd worst scorer in the finals and still won by an easy sweep. Its a luxury to have 2 scorers better then you and still win. Imagine if 2019 Kawhi tried being the 3rd best scorer in a series behind Lowry/Siakam? Raptors would get their ass kicked by 76ers and Bucks

[Uncle Drew]

Parker had 11% better TS and 6 points higher average

Ginobli had nearly equal points per game with a 9% better TS

Duncan was the 3rd worst scorer that series.

There's more to stats than scoring. Duncan led the team in every statistic bar scoring, even assists.

[rmt]

I do agree Duncan was the best overall player in 2007, he wasn't a gimp being carried by Manu like 2005. However, Duncan was still statistically the 3rd worst scorer in the finals and still won by an easy sweep. Its a luxury to have 2 scorers better then you and still win. Imagine if 2019 Kawhi tried being the 3rd best scorer in a series behind Lowry/Siakam? Raptors would get their ass kicked by 76ers and Bucks

Imho, the key to winning the Cavs series was shutting down Lebron (Duncan closing off the paint and Bowen shadowing Lebron). Once that is accomplished, there is no way the Spurs don't win which they did in a sweep - veteran, experienced, battle-tested, better coaching, multiple championships together vs the opposite.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Imho, the key to winning the Cavs series was shutting down Lebron (Duncan closing off the paint and Bowen shadowing Lebron). Once that is accomplished, there is no way the Spurs don't win which they did in a sweep - veteran, experienced, battle-tested, better coaching, multiple championships together vs the opposite.

Playing the worst team in finals history helps things out also the Horry hip check. 1999, 03, 07 Duncan was still the best player for 3 titles just like Shaq.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

There's more to stats than scoring. Duncan led the team in every statistic bar scoring, even assists.

Duncan was the best player in 07 but he faced the worst team in finals history. So Duncan was able to get away with scoring like crap and being 3rd worst scorer on the team.

[rmt]

I do agree Duncan was the best overall player in 2007, he wasn't a gimp being carried by Manu like 2005.

I don't see any scenario where anyone could describe Duncan's 2005 Finals performance as a gimp being carried by anyone else. Manu had a great series, but DET's defensive focus was Duncan. I also think that (strategically) this series would have been shorter had Popovich put Bowen on Chauncey (who couldn't back down Bowen) and let Parker (who is quicker) chase Rip around screens.


Duncan got them in foul trouble so why is he shooting 47% TS? He still struggled himself. Lets look at the spurs wins that series.

Game 1 win Manu had 26 points 73% TS and 14.9 BPM. Playing at an all-time great level

Game 2 win Manu had 27 points 90% TS and a BPM of 27.4 are you kidding me? Easy to win when you have a teammate playing like Michael Jordan.

Game 5 win was the Robert Horry bailout game when he scored 20 points in 2nd half carrying spurs late 4th quarter and overtime. Horry had the game winner and also had a 14.4 BPM

Game 7 win Manu carries Duncan with 23 points 75% TS and a 14.1 BPM. While Duncan has a 42% TS and a -1.2 BPM

So in other words, Manu was robbed of finals MVP and spurs probably lose the series without Horry in game 5 suddenly start shooting like he's Dirk Nowitski.

Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown, Tony Parker, Ben Wallace and NBA.com disagree with you:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

I do tire of re-posting these quotes, but sometimes people's memory go haywire - seriously, a carried gimp?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I don't see any scenario where anyone could describe Duncan's 2005 Finals performance as a gimp being carried by anyone else. Manu had a great series, but DET's defensive focus was Duncan. I also think that (strategically) this series would have been shorter had Popovich put Bowen on Chauncey (who couldn't back down Bowen) and let Parker (who is quicker) chase Rip around screens.



Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown, Tony Parker, Ben Wallace and NBA.com disagree with you:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

I do tire of re-posting these quotes, but sometimes people's memory go haywire - seriously, a carried gimp?

His ankles were reportedly both injured, he shot like crap for the series, he was a negative BPM in game 7. Manu was just better and had a playoff run similar to Wade 2006.

[Axe]

Shaq had like nick van axel as his 2nd best player in the 90s with lakers, that's not fair. Duncan had two hall of famers in tony and manu. Shaq has also never been outplayed by Kobe in the 4 finals he played with Lakers. While Duncan was outplayed by Manu in 05, Parker in 07.

Lakers didn't stop winning titles until Kobe started causing drama and not allowing Shaq to be the alpha. Kobe 65 more shots then Shaq in 03 vs spurs is unacceptable. Shaq carried Kobe in 02 vs kings and that Kings team was far better then the 03 Spurs.
Phil jackson made that lakers team cohesive by implementing the triangle.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Phil jackson made that lakers team cohesive by implementing the triangle.

Don't forget Shaq was the only player to ever beat Phil Jackson-Jordan-Pippen from 1991-1998.

2000 shaq doesn't get credit enough as a carry job. 38PPG in finals to Kobe's 15PPG. 2002 Kobe had to be carried by Shaq in the infamous Kings series. 2001 easy path but Shaq remained best player. Everything was good until Kobe shot lakers out of series in 03/04

[rmt]

His ankles were reportedly both injured, he shot like crap for the series, he was a negative BPM in game 7. Manu was just better and had a playoff run similar to Wade 2006.

I strongly disagree. No way was Manu's run similar to Wade in 06. Manu laid eggs in Detroit games 3 (7 pts) and 4 (12 pts) while Wade was the best HEAT in every game and scored monster 42, 36, 43 and 36 in the final 4 games.

06 Wade 34.7 pts 7.8 rebs 3.8 asst 2.7 stl 1.0 blk
05 Manu 18.7 pts 5.9 rebs 4 asst 1.3 stl 0.1 blk

[HBK_Kliq_2]

fixed


Where was Kobe at in the NBA finals 2000 when Shaq had a GmSc of 30 and Kobe couldn't even hit 10.

Shaq 38 points 61% FG, offensive rating 116

Kobe 15 points 36% FG, offensive rating 96

The biggest thing that stuck out was Pacers averaged more points and had a higher offensive rating.

Pacers ORtg 114.5
LAL ORtg 112.6

Pacers points 106.7
Lakers points 112.6

Reggie miller was on pace to get his first ring until....rebounding

Lakers offensive rebounding: 27%

Pavers offensive rebounding: 22%

Shaq had 34 offensive rebounds that series! He carried a worst team over Pacers due to scoring and rebounding dominance.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I strongly disagree. No way was Manu's run similar to Wade in 06. Manu laid eggs in Detroit games 3 (7 pts) and 4 (12 pts) while Wade was the best HEAT in every game and scored monster 42, 36, 43 and 36 in the final 4 games.

06 Wade 34.7 pts 7.8 rebs 3.8 asst 2.7 stl 1.0 blk
05 Manu 18.7 pts 5.9 rebs 4 asst 1.3 stl 0.1 blk

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Manu+Gin%C3%B3bili&player_id1_select=Manu+Gin%C3%B3bili&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2005&player_id2_hint=Dwyane+Wade&player_id2_select=Dwyane+Wade&player_id2=wadedw01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2006

Wade was just .1 better in BPM. Wade also had just .5 better in VORP despite playing 177 minutes. Manu is +6 on TS, .2 higher on offensive win shares despite the gap in minutes. All that tells me Manu's 2005 playoff run was on the same tier as Wade 2006. You could argue Wade but I'm saying they were in the same tier.

[Whoah10115]

:oldlol: God no. Duncan was the best player every second he was on the floor, and I say that as a Cavs fan.

No.

And it was clear to majority of the people watching. But as with his 1st team selection in 2005, 2nd Team next year, 1st Team that year, FMVP in 05, people just pencil him in.

You don't have to agree, I could care less. Duncan didn't play better that series, all on tape. Parker made them go.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I don't see any scenario where anyone could describe Duncan's 2005 Finals performance as a gimp being carried by anyone else. Manu had a great series, but DET's defensive focus was Duncan. I also think that (strategically) this series would have been shorter had Popovich put Bowen on Chauncey (who couldn't back down Bowen) and let Parker (who is quicker) chase Rip around screens.



Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown, Tony Parker, Ben Wallace and NBA.com disagree with you:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

I do tire of re-posting these quotes, but sometimes people's memory go haywire - seriously, a carried gimp?

To put it in perspective:

Duncan GmSc 2005 finals: 15.9

Kawhi GmSc 2014 finals: 15.8

That was senior in college Kawhi, that was pre prime Kawhi. You can't expect to give prime Duncan a pass for performing like pre prime Kawhi.

[SouBeachTalents]

To put it in perspective:

Duncan GmSc 2005 finals: 15.9

Kawhi GmSc 2014 finals: 15.8

That was senior in college Kawhi, that was pre prime Kawhi. You can't expect to give prime Duncan a pass for performing like pre prime Kawhi.
Manu GmSc 2005 finals: 14.1

[Duncan21formvp]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EacYbmOXkAA44K4.jpg

Stonewall. Timmy.

What a f*cking legend. The greatest defensive leader outside of Bill Russell. Put a franchise on his back for 20 years.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Tim Duncan was definitely the better player.

[Axe]

Tim Duncan was definitely the better player.
And you think that's you? :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu GmSc 2005 finals: 14.1

Manu struggled in the 3 losses but he was clear cut best player in 3/4 wins, which makes him the best player in my opinion.

[Overdrive]

Tim Duncan was definitely the better player.

I love Timmy, but the stats are deceptive. The Spurs didn't guard Shaq straight up and Robinson was the main guy on ball. Robinson always bothered Shaq.

[Horatio33]

Duncan got them in foul trouble so why is he shooting 47% TS? He still struggled himself. Lets look at the spurs wins that series.

Game 7 win Manu carries Duncan with 23 points 75% TS and a 14.1 BPM. While Duncan has a 42% TS and a -1.2 BPM


In the entire series Duncan was battling prime Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

Game seven fourth quarter Duncan got a couple of three point plays and hit another couple of shots. Then Duncan started drawing double teams and assisted a Bruce Bowen three pointer and two Ginobili threes.

But you won't see that on your spreadsheets. You miss the nuances of the game. It wouldn't surprise me if you barely watch basketball, but you live on basketball reference.

[LoneyROY7]

Stonewall.

Timmy.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f29a7d2bf34d80f6720aa2404b813534/tenor.gif

[Horatio33]

To put it in perspective:

Duncan GmSc 2005 finals: 15.9

Kawhi GmSc 2014 finals: 15.8

That was senior in college Kawhi, that was pre prime Kawhi. You can't expect to give prime Duncan a pass for performing like pre prime Kawhi.

Show what you're saying is Duncan should have been the Finals MVP.

[Axe]

Show what you're saying is Duncan should have been the Finals MVP.
Isn't he in '05.

[Horatio33]

Isn't he in '05.

I was talking about 2014 and the Duncan game score comparison. If Manu should have won 2005 finals MVP with such a low game score then Duncan should have won the 2014 finals MVP as he had a better game score than finals MVP Kawhi Leonard AND Ginobili's game score in 2005..

[Uncle Drew]

Manu struggled in the 3 losses but he was clear cut best player in 3/4 wins, which makes him the best player in my opinion.

The mental gymnastics. :oldlol:

[Horatio33]

I was talking about 2014 and the Duncan game score comparison. If Manu should have won 2005 finals MVP with such a low game score then Duncan should have won the 2014 finals MVP as he had a better game score than finals MVP Kawhi Leonard AND Ginobili's game score in 2005..

Disregard what I said here. I got my years mixed up.

[Carbine]

No.

And it was clear to majority of the people watching. But as with his 1st team selection in 2005, 2nd Team next year, 1st Team that year, FMVP in 05, people just pencil him in.

You don't have to agree, I could care less. Duncan didn't play better that series, all on tape. Parker made them go.

It sure is on tape. I remember making a thread after the FMVP was announced that it was a robbery.

You basically have to admit that 6ppg on better efficiency is worth more than the dramatic difference in rebounds and massive difference in defensive impact. While having more assists.

YOU should probably go watch the tape again. And focus on how many altered shots, closed lanes and traffic rebounds Tim Duncan is responsible for.

[Kblaze8855]

Tim Duncan is one of the best people to use to determine if the person you’re talking to should even be acknowledged in a basketball discussion.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In the entire series Duncan was battling prime Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

Game seven fourth quarter Duncan got a couple of three point plays and hit another couple of shots. Then Duncan started drawing double teams and assisted a Bruce Bowen three pointer and two Ginobili threes.

But you won't see that on your spreadsheets. You miss the nuances of the game. It wouldn't surprise me if you barely watch basketball, but you live on basketball reference.

14.1 BPM for Manu that game to Duncan's -1.2.

75% TS for Manu to Duncan's 42% TS

That game right? Sorry but that's far too massive of a gap to overlook. Duncan was being defended by Rasheed/Ben and that's why he sucked I guess but that's still no excuse. Manu had Prince on him a lot as well.

The offense did run through Duncan I agree. That doesn't make you the best player by default and that's where you are mistaken. The spurs struggled with Manu on the bench for the entire 05 playoffs, you are underrating his impact.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Tim Duncan is one of the best people to use to determine if the person you’re talking to should even be acknowledged in a basketball discussion.

His defense, yes. That is goat level worthy.

Its his offense that I'm questioning. Outside of 2002/2003 he never seemed to be a dominating offensive player like other legends on his tier. Struggled in 04 vs malone, 05 vs wallace, 08 vs Pau/Odom. All lost series besides 05 because Manu went nuts in games 1/2/7.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The mental gymnastics. :oldlol:

I will admit Manu played like garbage on the road in the 2005 finals. Who cares? Spurs lost those games anyway.

My point stands: 3 out of 4 wins it was Manu as clear cut best player.

The other win game 5 was the Horry game.

So offensively, Duncan really had a free pass that series.

[Roundball_Rock]

Offense (i.e, scoring since all of offense is reduced to scoring among fans), is becoming a Rorschach test: if you like a player his "offense" was great, if you don't he sucked at it.

Duncan peaked at 5th in scoring and had five top 10 scoring seasons. Is that something to scoff at? He could have scored more but he played team basketball.

[Whoah10115]

It sure is on tape. I remember making a thread after the FMVP was announced that it was a robbery.

You basically have to admit that 6ppg on better efficiency is worth more than the dramatic difference in rebounds and massive difference in defensive impact. While having more assists.

YOU should probably go watch the tape again. And focus on how many altered shots, closed lanes and traffic rebounds Tim Duncan is responsible for.

No.

I don't have to basically admit anything. I can just watch the games and let it play itself out.

And hey, maybe I'm wrong (I'm not), but I'm not determining by 6PPG or RPG, or if offense contribution outweighs the defensive contribution, or altered shots ...at least not to formulate a formula.

They've even shown a couple of the games recently. Parker made them go. Parker's offensive contribution went beyond points. He's the PG, and he created all the offense. Just like with defense, you can't really boggle it down to a stat.

Now, the Cavs were not a great team. LeBron even gets unfair flak for it, tho it's fair to say he didn't play well. Maybe if they're playing a better team Duncan takes the lead. That's not uncommon. If Wade is playing and healthy the Heat are in the Finals. They're defending champs. Maybe that's a series where Duncan shows he's the best player. As it was, Parker was the rightful winner, and that was the feeling in most rooms, with people who are casual, and with people who are not and have some idea.

That doesn't change that you felt differently from the get-go, but it's revisionist for anyone who thinks this was some random, out of left field thing. The only people really surprised were those who assumed Duncan would always get these prizes.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I will admit Manu played like garbage on the road in the 2005 finals. Who cares? Spurs lost those games anyway.

My point stands: 3 out of 4 wins it was Manu as clear cut best player.

The other win game 5 was the Horry game.

So offensively, Duncan really had a free pass that series.

Duncan had a whopping 2 assists per game that series, which is highly suspect for his usage.

Manu is one of the greatest passers ever and far better passer then TD could ever dream of. So when Manu is also scoring significantly better then TD, he's the more impactful overall offensive player.

Playoff Spurs were +15 per 100 possessions with Manu on court and -4.4 per 100 in the 300+ minutes he was off court. Many of those minutes with Manu off had Duncan in. +20 per 100 ON-OFF.


Single game BPM also points to Manu crushing Duncan in impact during games 1,2,7

[rmt]

I will admit Manu played like garbage on the road in the 2005 finals. Who cares? Spurs lost those games anyway.

My point stands: 3 out of 4 wins it was Manu as clear cut best player.

The other win game 5 was the Horry game.

So offensively, Duncan really had a free pass that series.

Who cares? - It is MVP for the WHOLE series you know - they don't know which team will win when the game starts.

Please state which winning games you thought Manu was the CLEAR CUT best player while Duncan was more consistent throughout the series, the defensive focus of the Pistons and contributed more on the defensive side of the court.

True, Horry had a fantastic game 5 but when since is a 26 pt/19 reb game chopped liver to be dismissed?

Game 1 - W
Duncan 24 pts 17 rebs 2 asst 2 blks
Manu 26 pts 9 rebs 2 asst 1 stl

Game 2 - W
Duncan 18 pts 11 rebs 1 asst 4 blks
Manu 27 pts 3 rebs 7 asst 3 stl

Game 3
Duncan 14 pts 10 rebs 4 asst 3 stl 1 blk
Manu 7 pts 4 rebs

Game 4
Duncan 16 pts 16 rebs 2 asst 3 blks
Manu 12 pts 4 rebs 3 asst 1 stl 1 blk

Game 5 - W
Duncan 26 pts 19 rebs 2 asst 2 blks
Manu 15 pts 6 rebs 9 asst 1 stl

Game 6
Duncan 21 pts 15 rebs 1 asst 1 blk
Manu 21 pts 10 rebs 3 asst 2 stl

Game 7 - W
Duncan 25 pts 11 rebs 3 asst 2 blks
Manu 23 pts 5 rebs 4 asst 1 stl

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2007 game 6 2nd round spurs vs suns closeout game

Manu Ginobli: 33 points 78% TS, 23.6 BPM

Tim Duncan: 24 points, 55% TS, 4.4 BPM

2005 game 7 finals spurs vs pistons closeout game

Manu Ginobli: 23 points, 75% TS, 14.1 BPM

Tim Duncan: 25 points, 42% TS, -1.2 BPM

I will not count the 2007 finals game 4 elimination game because that series was a joke anyway. Look at the competitive series vs suns and pistons, look how Manu bails out Duncan. When the going gets tough, Duncan turns into Manu's sidekick both games.

Combined BPM both closeout games: Manu 37.7 vs Duncan 3.2. That's 35.5+ for Manu.

Imagine if Giannis had a guy go god mode in close out games like Manu instead of a geek like Middelton, his legacy may be different as well. Replace Middleton with Manu and Duncan loses both 2005/2007 titles easily.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Who cares? - It is MVP for the WHOLE series you know - they don't know which team will win when the game starts.

Please state which winning games you thought Manu was the CLEAR CUT best player while Duncan was more consistent throughout the series, the defensive focus of the Pistons and contributed more on the defensive side of the court.

True, Horry had a fantastic game 5 but when since is a 26 pt/19 reb game chopped liver to be dismissed?

Game 1 - W
Duncan 24 pts 17 rebs 2 asst 2 blks
Manu 26 pts 9 rebs 2 asst 1 stl

Game 2 - W
Duncan 18 pts 11 rebs 1 asst 4 blks
Manu 27 pts 3 rebs 7 asst 3 stl

Game 3
Duncan 14 pts 10 rebs 4 asst 3 stl 1 blk
Manu 7 pts 4 rebs

Game 4
Duncan 16 pts 16 rebs 2 asst 3 blks
Manu 12 pts 4 rebs 3 asst 1 stl 1 blk

Game 5 - W
Duncan 26 pts 19 rebs 2 asst 2 blks
Manu 15 pts 6 rebs 9 asst 1 stl

Game 6
Duncan 21 pts 15 rebs 1 asst 1 blk
Manu 21 pts 10 rebs 3 asst 2 stl

Game 7 - W
Duncan 25 pts 11 rebs 3 asst 2 blks
Manu 23 pts 5 rebs 4 asst 1 stl

Duncan played better in games they lost anyway, that's nothing to brag about. Go check the advanced stats each game of 1, 2, 7 look at Manu's BPM compared to Duncan. In 3 out of 4 wins, manu was clear cut best player by TS/BPM numbers.



Game 1 win Manu had 26 points 73% TS and 14.9 BPM. Playing at an all-time great level

Game 2 win Manu had 27 points 90% TS and a BPM of 27.4 are you kidding me? Easy to win when you have a teammate playing like Michael Jordan.

Game 7 win Manu carries Duncan with 23 points 75% TS and a 14.1 BPM. While Duncan has a 42% TS and a -1.2 BPM

[Carbine]

No.

I don't have to basically admit anything. I can just watch the games and let it play itself out.

And hey, maybe I'm wrong (I'm not), but I'm not determining by 6PPG or RPG, or if offense contribution outweighs the defensive contribution, or altered shots ...at least not to formulate a formula.

They've even shown a couple of the games recently. Parker made them go. Parker's offensive contribution went beyond points. He's the PG, and he created all the offense. Just like with defense, you can't really boggle it down to a stat.

Now, the Cavs were not a great team. LeBron even gets unfair flak for it, tho it's fair to say he didn't play well. Maybe if they're playing a better team Duncan takes the lead. That's not uncommon. If Wade is playing and healthy the Heat are in the Finals. They're defending champs. Maybe that's a series where Duncan shows he's the best player. As it was, Parker was the rightful winner, and that was the feeling in most rooms, with people who are casual, and with people who are not and have some idea.

That doesn't change that you felt differently from the get-go, but it's revisionist for anyone who thinks this was some random, out of left field thing. The only people really surprised were those who assumed Duncan would always get these prizes.

I don't think you watched the '07 Spurs.

I know its a phrase thrown around a lot, but in this case it's warranted. Duncan was CLEARLY, without any doubt the best player on the '07 Spurs. Duncan is actually the one who created a lot of the offense, as he was the focal point. Tony "made them go" is waaaaaaaay overboard.

His offensive production went beyond the stats? He wasn't having an abnormal amount of hockey assists where because of his offensive greatness, the team was getting easy buckets. He usually shot the ball on his drives, or dishes the ball off to Tim on pick and rolls. His offensive numbers that series actually give a great representation of what he did, an efficient mid 20's scorer.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Imagine if James Harden was extremely mentally tough in playoffs and played like a savage in big games. Had Duncan on his team to take pressure off. That's 2005-2011 Manu when he's healthy. You guys are sleeping on that man.

[Carbine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiATdKcyW6Q


That's Duncans game 4 defense. Please watch it.

There are some plays in there where I don't think he had any impact (The Snow jumper for example) but a lot of those are impact defensive plays. What's a beautiful shot contest worth? What's a rotation weak side into a shot contest or block worth?

They're worth a lot to me. Maybe you look at those things as ordinary, I look at it as impact.

[Whoah10115]

I don't think you watched the '07 Spurs.

I know its a phrase thrown around a lot, but in this case it's warranted. Duncan was CLEARLY, without any doubt the best player on the '07 Spurs. Duncan is actually the one who created a lot of the offense, as he was the focal point. Tony "made them go" is waaaaaaaay overboard.

His offensive production went beyond the stats? He wasn't having an abnormal amount of hockey assists where because of his offensive greatness, the team was getting easy buckets. He usually shot the ball on his drives, or dishes the ball off to Tim on pick and rolls. His offensive numbers that series actually give a great representation of what he did, an efficient mid 20's scorer.

You talking about the Finals, or you talking in general? I don't think you watch Spurs so much as you love Duncan.

You made no attempt to question my opinion, and you didn't make your point.

All you've done is tell me he was CLEARLY the best player on the 07 Spurs (didn't say Finals) and say offensive greatness.

In the Finals, Parker was better. Doesn't matter if you agree. I gave you my take, gave you more than bullshit, and all you're doing is telling me he's great.

Yeah, and? He was their best player? Yeah, and?

And in the 05 Finals he took Manu's FMVP. You can go on about who he faced, but the Spurs gave him the ball over and over and he forced the game -don't know if anyone is allowed to say that about him- over and over. And most big plays are made by Manu. And when Duncan gets one at the rim, or an and 1, he's getting fed. And when he makes a great drop pass, it's usually off a great feed to him, usually from Manu.

Anyway, cry on, but you're still talking like I'm saying something you've never heard before.

Still talking like I'm reading from the stat sheet. But apart from telling me he's great, the closest thing to a point you've made is 6PPG on higher efficiency vs. disparity in rebounding plus defense.

You sound like you watched a ton.

Thank you for the video, but not only did I watch ordinary Duncan and ordinary finals, I also grew up a fan of ordinary Knicks. Please inform me further on what I value.

It's like you think we're talking about some indie rock band no one else can hear.

[rmt]

2007 game 6 2nd round spurs vs suns closeout game

Manu Ginobli: 33 points 78% TS, 23.6 BPM

Tim Duncan: 24 points, 55% TS, 4.4 BPM

2005 game 7 finals spurs vs pistons closeout game

Manu Ginobli: 23 points, 75% TS, 14.1 BPM

Tim Duncan: 25 points, 42% TS, -1.2 BPM

I will not count the 2007 finals game 4 elimination game because that series was a joke anyway. Look at the competitive series vs suns and pistons, look how Manu bails out Duncan. When the going gets tough, Duncan turns into Manu's sidekick both games.

Combined BPM both closeout games: Manu 37.7 vs Duncan 3.2. That's 35.5+ for Manu.

Imagine if Giannis had a guy go god mode in close out games like Manu instead of a geek like Middelton, his legacy may be different as well. Replace Middleton with Manu and Duncan loses both 2005/2007 titles easily.

Funny how you choose ONE game out the 2007 Suns series (imo was the de facto 2007 Finals) which was a monster series for Duncan. I remember Popovich doing a fist pump while walking off the court in that series - he never does that, but he knew their greatest threat was gone.

2007 Playoff series vs PHX
Duncan 26.8 pts 13.7 rebs 1.2 asst 4.2 blks 57.3%FG
Manu 17.8 pts 6.8 rebs 4.3 asst 2.5 stls 41%FG

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Funny how you choose ONE game out the 2007 Suns series (imo was the de facto 2007 Finals) which was a monster series for Duncan. I remember Popovich doing a fist pump while walking off the court in that series - he never does that, but he knew their greatest threat was gone.

2007 Playoff series vs PHX
Duncan 26.8 pts 13.7 rebs 1.2 asst 4.2 blks 57.3%FG
Manu 17.8 pts 6.8 rebs 4.3 asst 2.5 stls 41%FG

Yes Duncan killed the suns weak defense in 05/07. My point was Manu was their closer. Manu was the best player in both closeout games vs suns 2007 and Pistons 2005.

Manu was also the best player for the series vs #1 defense Pistons 2005.

[Axe]

Imagine if James Harden was extremely mentally tough in playoffs and played like a savage in big games. Had Duncan on his team to take pressure off. That's 2005-2011 Manu when he's healthy. You guys are sleeping on that man.
You mean he'd still be a sixth man if that was the case?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You mean he'd still be a sixth man if that was the case?

Manu started every game in the conference finals and finals. Manu started 15 total games in the 2005 playoffs. Spurs lost 2 games straight to the Sonics in the 2nd round while Manu was 6th man and not being used enough lol. By game 5 Manu was inserted in the starting lineup and scored 39 points 86% TS and a 32.9 BPM. Manu started the rest of the playoffs and was spurs best player.

[Axe]

Manu started every game in the conference finals and finals. Manu started 15 total games in the 2005 playoffs. Spurs lost 2 games straight to the Sonics in the 2nd round while Manu was 6th man and not being used enough lol. By game 5 Manu was inserted in the starting lineup and scored 39 points 86% TS and a 32.9 BPM. Manu started the rest of the playoffs and was spurs best player.
I meant james harden

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I meant james harden

All I'm saying was Manu is a similar talent to Harden but just takes way less shots. I don't know how Harden would adjust to Duncan. 2012 Harden wet the bed in the finals.

I think if you replace 2015 Dwight with 2007 Duncan I'm sure rockets win the title.

[LoneyROY7]

Okay. You've had your fun.

Saying Manu is a similar talent to Harden is obviously where I draw the line. I need you to leave my thread. NOW.

[Axe]

All I'm saying was Manu is a similar talent to Harden but just takes way less shots. I don't know how Harden would adjust to Duncan. 2012 Harden wet the bed in the finals.

I think if you replace 2015 Dwight with 2007 Duncan I'm sure rockets win the title.
Lmao

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Okay. You've had your fun.

Saying Manu is a similar talent to Harden is obviously where I draw the line. I need you to leave my thread. NOW.

One guy has a playoff title run leading all players in VORP/offensive win shares.

Another guy has an MVP with 2 scoring titles

Its a compliment to both of them, relax man. They both have a similar style and both have what each other want.

[LoneyROY7]

One guy has a playoff title run leading all players in VORP/offensive win shares.

Another guy has an MVP with 2 scoring titles

Its a compliment to both of them, relax man. They both have a similar style and both have what each other want.

Harden has 3 scoring titles.

[Axe]

Harden has 3 scoring titles.
You mean 3 less 1 scoring titles