Why is Lebron a bad two-foot leaper?

[StrongLurk]

He gets crazy height and power jumping off one foot, but his two-foot leaping ability is average at best.

I know his size has some effect...but then how the hell do guys like Zion and Barkey have crazy two-foot leaping ability? Anyone have any theories on why?

I know it may seem nitpicky, but it is an important type of athleticism in basketball. Jordan's two foot leaping ability helped a ton and made him so damn unpredictable in the paint and tough to guard in the paint/post.

[STATUTORY]

two foot leap requires much more athleticism. in a one-foot jump the momentum is almost always generated via running, whereas the upward motion in two-foot jump is entirely created by the bend of the knees and explosion from legs

[Kblaze8855]

We calling Jason Richardson a better athlete than James White or what?

People jump differently. There is no better or worse to it. Maybe if you do both.... but either or doesnt much matter in a player evaluation.

[Reggie43]

In terms of protecting the paint it is obviously an advantage to be a good two foot jumper in rebounding and blocking shots.

[warriorfan]

two-foot leaping is alpha

[Uncle Drew]

Because people have different mechanics. This thread is shit.

[SATAN]

This is a shit troll thread but maybe his toes...

[FultzNationRISE]

It has to do with his anatomy.

Pippen wasnt a good two foot leaper either.

[tpols]

We calling Jason Richardson a better athlete than James White or what?.

i mean, he kinda is. james white is a one trick pony athlete. im sure jrich would beat him in more categories of athleticism.

[ArbitraryWater]

genetic.

ppl have different gifts/attributes.

OP is dumb

[FireDavidKahn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EamtfwRXsAAvLTN?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eam1gGZWoAUmFMf?format=jpg&name=small

"bad athlete"

[Bronbron23]

We calling Jason Richardson a better athlete than James White or what?

People jump differently. There is no better or worse to it. Maybe if you do both.... but either or doesnt much matter in a player evaluation.

i disagree a little. Being elite at both like mj is of course ideal but if i has to chose being elite in one or the other it would definitely be 2. Exploding off of 2 gives you way more control in the air especially when theres body contact. Its why probably 75% of facial dunks are 2 feet and why mj has a shit ton more facial and traffic dunks then bron. His quickness played a role in that to though.

[Phoenix]

It has to do with his anatomy.

Pippen wasnt a good two foot leaper either.

Not that the 'in-joke' is going over my head, but Scottie's most famous dunk shows that wasn't the case:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/UddZtcUQtMgc8/giphy.gif

[Bronbron23]

It has to do with his anatomy.

Pippen wasnt a good two foot leaper either.

What? Do yall even watch ball? Pip was an elite 2 foot dunker also. He has way more 2 foot facial dunks than bron. Half of his career facial dunks are 2 foot and he has one of the best facial dunks of all time which was 2 foot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2838Qp8069Y

[Kblaze8855]

i mean, he kinda is. james white is a one trick pony athlete. im sure jrich would beat him in more categories of athleticism.

And what is Jason Richardson’s second trick exactly?


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2006191821480296.jpeg



James was while half assing it on a near Olympic path as a high jumper, a great triple jumper, and was going 42 inches up from 15 feet away and dunking comfortably. James white was a freak of nature. Jason Richardson was a really coordinated dunker.

[Phoenix]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EamtfwRXsAAvLTN?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eam1gGZWoAUmFMf?format=jpg&name=small

"bad athlete"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-kolNcY53s


That was a one foot jump with a running start, which is what the OP was talking about. Anyone saying it's a lack of athleticism is obnoxiously trolling.

[FultzNationRISE]

What? Do yall even watch ball? Pip was an elite 2 foot dunker also. He has way more 2 foot facial dunks than bron. Half of his career facial dunks are 2 foot and he has one of the best facial dunks of all time which was 2 foot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2838Qp8069Y


It only seemed elite because 90s competition was extremely unathletic by contemporary standards. In today’s game Pip would be a below average two foot dunker.

The issue is, for some weird reason of physics, players who have three legs jump better off of one than two. I cant explain why exactly, but I know from experience. For NBA examples, look to Oden, Lebron, and Ibaka.

[StrongLurk]

I love how some posters got really upset at my OP and went to the extreme by claiming I'm saying Lebron is a bad athlete.

He factually is not an elite two footed leaper. He is average at it. Even Kobe was a better two-foot leaper.

Imagine if Lebron could two-foot jump quickly like Zion or Barkley did in the paint/post. He'd be so much more of a threat down low than he already is.

[tpols]

I love how some posters got really upset at my OP and went to the extreme by claiming I'm saying Lebron is a bad athlete.

He factually is not an elite two footed leaper. He is average at it. Even Kobe was a better two-foot leaper.

Imagine if Lebron could two-foot jump quickly like Zion or Barkley did in the paint/post. He'd be so much more of a threat down low than he already is.

true but he dwarfs MJ and Kobe in other aspects of athleticism.

Like... when I watch prime MJ on the fastbreak, his speed really isnt mind blowing. He tends to dodge and slip and weave between defenders to attain the position he wants, and then gathers with the two foot hop for some crazy dunk or layup.

I've never seen MJ take off like a bat out of hell and just out sprint everyone to the cup end to end how LBJ does it.

His top end speed and momentum is way more powerful, but ultimately it's better to be a two foot jumper than a one foot jumper in halfcourt play where champions are made.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's more impressive and rare to be an elite one-foot jumper, most people need maximal arm movement to get lift which isn't possible when holding a basketball, therefore those that can translate speed into vertical movement with minimal arm swing are far more impressive

But LeBron is elite at both of course.. he just happens to stand out as a one-foot leaper

[Phoenix]

true but he dwarfs MJ and Kobe in other aspects of athleticism.

Like... when I watch prime MJ on the fastbreak, his speed really isnt mind blowing. He tends to dodge and slip and weave between defenders to attain the position he wants, and then gathers with the two foot hop for some crazy dunk or layup.

I've never seen MJ take off like a bat out of hell and just out sprint everyone to the cup end to end how LBJ does it.

His top end speed and momentum is way more powerful, but ultimately it's better to be a two foot jumper than a one foot jumper in halfcourt play where champions are made.

They have different types of athleticism. As you said Lebron's is more based on momentum and power, he's likened to a freight train on the break for that reason. One of MJ's nicknames, black cat, is also suitable because he is just naturally quicker in situations where he doesn't have to build up momentum. He's just lighter on his feet( as he should being 50 pounds lighter) quicker and more agile. Quicker laterally, faster first step out of the triple threat. And where he best leverages two foot jumping is not needing that built-up momentum to go up strong and get enough lift against bigger defenders. Case in point:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/lrf5jEbnpVUek/200.gif
https://i.imgur.com/EnGyg.gif

He can gather or hop step and get enough air to go up over the defender. Or you have his famous layup vs the Nets where he can actually get distance and hangtime to start on one side of the rim and somehow maneuver his way through defenders in-air:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WeakCornyIaerismetalmark-size_restricted.gif

That move is so 'in the moment' that if he tried to do that 5 times in a row afterwards he wouldn't get the same result.

Lebron best utilises his vertical in the half-court for situations like this:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2015/P0CMpE.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-07-2014/vGlDkh.gif
https://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1975409/131220-jamesdunk.gif

If he gets any kind of daylight it's like a launching pad and then he takes off.

[tpols]

true^^^

it's actually crazy how little Lebron used the two footed jump.

I've seen him play a thousand times and the ratio of one foot dunks to two foot dunks has to be 99:1.

Meanwhile MJ could dunk off one foot from the FT line.

[Bronbron23]

It's more impressive and rare to be an elite one-foot jumper, most people need maximal arm movement to get lift which isn't possible when holding a basketball, therefore those that can translate speed into vertical movement with minimal arm swing are far more impressive

But LeBron is elite at both of course.. he just happens to stand out as a one-foot leaper

Bron isnt elite off both. He barely has any 2 foot facials and has way less facial and traffic dunks for a reason. Hes not a bum off 2 but hes not in the elite company of mj, dominique and vince off 2.

Mj was elite off both. He could also dunk on guys off of a hop step which is something ive never seen bron do. Mj just had those bouncy fast hops that not many guys have.

[Kblaze8855]

true^^^

it's actually crazy how little Lebron used the two footed jump.

I've seen him play a thousand times and the ratio of one foot dunks to two foot dunks has to be 99:1.

Meanwhile MJ could dunk off one foot from the FT line.

Everyone who dunks from far away does it off one. I’ve seen Desmond mason and a couple others do near back foot on the line ft dunks but it’s not that impressive looking to people who can’t tell how weird it is. Being a two footed jumper myself who could only go straight up it blows my mind when I see two footed jumpers come from way out. Jason Richardson embarrassed himself trying.

MJ came from a good distance off 2 quite a few times but it’s rare as hell.

[STATUTORY]

They have different types of athleticism. As you said Lebron's is more based on momentum and power, he's likened to a freight train on the break for that reason. One of MJ's nicknames, black cat, is also suitable because he is just naturally quicker in situations where he doesn't have to build up momentum. He's just lighter on his feet( as he should being 50 pounds lighter) quicker and more agile. Quicker laterally, faster first step out of the triple threat. And where he best leverages two foot jumping is not needing that built-up momentum to go up strong and get enough lift against bigger defenders. Case in point:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/lrf5jEbnpVUek/200.gif
https://i.imgur.com/EnGyg.gif

He can gather or hop step and get enough air to go up over the defender. Or you have his famous layup vs the Nets where he can actually get distance and hangtime to start on one side of the rim and somehow maneuver his way through defenders in-air:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WeakCornyIaerismetalmark-size_restricted.gif

That move is so 'in the moment' that if he tried to do that 5 times in a row afterwards he wouldn't get the same result.

Lebron best utilises his vertical in the half-court for situations like this:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2015/P0CMpE.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-07-2014/vGlDkh.gif
https://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1975409/131220-jamesdunk.gif

If he gets any kind of daylight it's like a launching pad and then he takes off.

very good analysis, Lebron requires open court and momentum because of his 1 foot leap, whereas MJ was much more explosive even in small spaces

just another reason why Lebron was never an elite half court scorer

[Bronbron23]

true but he dwarfs MJ and Kobe in other aspects of athleticism.

Like... when I watch prime MJ on the fastbreak, his speed really isnt mind blowing. He tends to dodge and slip and weave between defenders to attain the position he wants, and then gathers with the two foot hop for some crazy dunk or layup.

I've never seen MJ take off like a bat out of hell and just out sprint everyone to the cup end to end how LBJ does it.

His top end speed and momentum is way more powerful, but ultimately it's better to be a two foot jumper than a one foot jumper in halfcourt play where champions are made.

Id agree if you were talking about older late 90's mj but young mj was as fast as anyone including bron. A few of these are older mj but you can see his fast break speed in the clips of the younger mj. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwQjDQUs6c

[FireDavidKahn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-kolNcY53s


That was a one foot jump with a running start, which is what the OP was talking about. Anyone saying it's a lack of athleticism is obnoxiously trolling.

First response.


two foot leap requires much more athleticism. in a one-foot jump the momentum is almost always generated via running, whereas the upward motion in two-foot jump is entirely created by the bend of the knees and explosion from legs

It's utterly preposterous and obnoxious trolling to say LeBron only has "average" (as in OP) athleticism when it comes to 2 foot dunking.

LeBron is a top 5 athlete to ever play the game. The "discrepancy" is mostly instincts and now they learned to jump, it has nothing to do with one person who is elite at 1 foot jumping being less athletic then someone who can jump off 2 feet.

We gonna say Barkley is more athletic then LeBron?:facepalm

[light]

He gets crazy height and power jumping off one foot, but his two-foot leaping ability is average at best.

I know his size has some effect...but then how the hell do guys like Zion and Barkey have crazy two-foot leaping ability? Anyone have any theories on why?

I know it may seem nitpicky, but it is an important type of athleticism in basketball. Jordan's two foot leaping ability helped a ton and made him so damn unpredictable in the paint and tough to guard in the paint/post.

He definitely wasn't bad or average at it.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-jones.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-lakers.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-wolves.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-warriors.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-hawks.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-block-splitter.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-thunder.gif

He just doesn’t need to do it most of the time.

He’s usually able to time his steps so he can take off of one foot in almost every situation, even in traffic out of a half court set, and even on alley oops, which are unpredictable - not easy to do.

A lot of people aren't as confident jumping off of one foot - they feel like they can't get high enough or they can't generate enough power (that was the case with me - I could only dunk off of two feet).

LeBron doesn't have that problem. He can generate a lot of lifting power both ways.

[FKAri]

It has to do with his anatomy.

Pippen wasnt a good two foot leaper either.

But they were both tremendous three leg leapers.

[StrongLurk]

He definitely wasn't bad or average at it.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-jones.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-lakers.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-wolves.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-warriors.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-hawks.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-block-splitter.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-thunder.gif

He just doesn’t need to do it most of the time.

He’s usually able to time his steps so he can take off of one foot in almost every situation, even in traffic out of a half court set, and even on alley oops, which are unpredictable - not easy to do.

A lot of people aren't as confident jumping off of one foot - they feel like they can't get high enough or they can't generate enough power (that was the case with me - I could only dunk off of two feet).

LeBron doesn't have that problem. He can generate a lot of lifting power both ways.

Bro he isn't jumping that high off the ground in those dunks....he's 6'8 or 6'9 so of course he can finish some two foot dunks but his vertical on those is like half his vert for 1 foot dunks. It's just kind of odd that he is SO much better at dunking off of 1 foot.

[Bronbron23]

He definitely wasn't bad or average at it.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-jones.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-lakers.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-wolves.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-warriors.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-hawks.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-block-splitter.gif

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/1-bron-dunk-thunder.gif

He just doesn’t need to do it most of the time.

He’s usually able to time his steps so he can take off of one foot in almost every situation, even in traffic out of a half court set, and even on alley oops, which are unpredictable - not easy to do.

A lot of people aren't as confident jumping off of one foot - they feel like they can't get high enough or they can't generate enough power (that was the case with me - I could only dunk off of two feet).

LeBron doesn't have that problem. He can generate a lot of lifting power both ways.

thats literally all his in traffic/ facial dunks off 2 and in alot of those hes not really getting all that high relatively speaking of course. Compared to mj lebron dosnt have anywhere near as many facial dunks and traffic dunks. Some of that has to do with the fact that mj was much quicker and could get by his man much easier. The other part is that mj was just a much better 2 foot leaper.

[StrongLurk]

thats literally all his in traffic/ facial dunks off 2 and in alot of those hes not really getting all that high relatively speaking of course. Compared to mj lebron dosnt have anywhere near as many facial dunks and traffic dunks. Some of that has to do with the fact that mj was much quicker and could get by his man much easier. The other part is that mj was just a much better 2 foot leaper.

That's what I said too...I mean we've got plenty of videos where MJ literally catches the ball and take like 1 step or a half step toward the rim and just LAUNCHES off two feet with power and dunks on the defender. Guys like Zion and Barkley look like they have springs in their feet jumping right as they catch the ball off two feet. Even in the vids posted of Lebron, he has a running start.

If Lebron had that crazy two-foot leaping ability in his arsenal...adding that alone might have made him GOAT.

[CTbasketball92]

I think the idea that LeBron is a bad two-foot leaped is pretty overblown.

He’s not anything like MJ or Zion, but I’ve see. His head get near the rim off two feet for blocks and dunks.

If LeBron’s max vertical off one is like 44 inches, his very off two foot vertical with a few steps is around 36-37 inches.

As for why he’s relatively mediocre in relation to himself: his lower body just looks stiff when he jumps because he’s not that springy in that same way. Idk how to describe it. It should be noted that his second jump is mad quick

[Phoenix]

First response.



It's utterly preposterous and obnoxious trolling to say LeBron only has "average" (as in OP) athleticism when it comes to 2 foot dunking.

LeBron is a top 5 athlete to ever play the game. The "discrepancy" is mostly instincts and now they learned to jump, it has nothing to do with one person who is elite at 1 foot jumping being less athletic then someone who can jump off 2 feet.

We gonna say Barkley is more athletic then LeBron?:facepalm

My main point to you was the image you used to say 'look at Brons vertical', in a topic about 2 foot jumping, was taken from a situation where it was a running one foot take-off. As I said, I dont agree with the idea that Lebrons 2 foot jumping indicates average or below average athleticism compared to someone who can jump well off one or two feet( I called it obnoxious trolling so it's not like I disagree with you). But he is, demonstrably, a much more explosive one foot leaper and the example you used was a testament to that, not counter evidence to the name of the thread.

As I said earlier MJ and Lebron have different kinds of athleticism. They have edges on each other in different categories. That's the objective way to look at it.

[Manny98]

who f*cking cares, LeBron is still the GOAT one foot leaper and the greatest overall athlete the NBA has ever seen besides arguably Wilt

[Phoenix]

who f*cking cares,

Apparently you do enough to post 'who f*cking cares'. Threads I don't 'care' about I don't respond to. Funny how that works.

[LAL]

Wow can't even say he is not good at 2 foot leaping. It's a footwork/fundamental thing, not his best attribute at all.
He has like 6 of those in 18 years... for a dunker btw. All posted in this thread.

[Bronbron23]

That's what I said too...I mean we've got plenty of videos where MJ literally catches the ball and take like 1 step or a half step toward the rim and just LAUNCHES off two feet with power and dunks on the defender. Guys like Zion and Barkley look like they have springs in their feet jumping right as they catch the ball off two feet. Even in the vids posted of Lebron, he has a running start.

If Lebron had that crazy two-foot leaping ability in his arsenal...adding that alone might have made him GOAT.

yeah its clear as day for anyone whos not blinded for their love of lebron.

[SATAN]

Low IQ thread

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron has tremendous strength in his quads, and good strength in his calves, which makes him an all-time great leaper off of one foot with a running start (his quad strength is also why he's so fast in a straight line in the open court). However, I believe that 2-foot leaping, especially off a hop step (has Lebron ever done this in his career for a dunk?) is STRONGLY influenced by the proportion of fast-twitch muscle fiber you have as compared to slow twitch, as fast-twitch is for generating explosive movements. Jordan's quads and calves especially likely had a much higher ratio of fast-twitch muscles than Lebron, thus his "springyness" on two-foot and hop step leaps. It's also responsible for his insane first step, another thing which Lebron has lagged in over the years.

The amount of air Jordan was able to get off of 2-feet or a hop step with MINIMAL knee flexion, and how quickly he could get off the ground and get major air, is something I've never seen from another player. Honestly, young Kenyon Martin may have been the closest in terms of how quickly he could get up and get major air.

[3ba11]

.
.
Hop-step dunks are rarely or never done, except for the GOAT.. then it's standard..


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-11-2015/I_9Vpu.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/Q6Op3c.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/cxLte6.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2021/cKlaow.gif

[Spurs m8]

.
.
Hop-step dunks are rarely or never done, except for the GOAT.. then it's standard..


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-11-2015/I_9Vpu.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/Q6Op3c.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/cxLte6.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2021/cKlaow.gif

Ahhh always so refreshing to see that aesthetically pleasing game.
And a winner.
All rolled into one

[SATAN]

It's also responsible for his insane first step, another thing which Lebron has lagged in over the years.



:facepalm

[Airupthere]

Ahhh always so refreshing to see that aesthetically pleasing game.
And a winner.
All rolled into one

Lol how about this kind of game?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxKVxmMiqFY

[Indian guy]

Bad? That's an exaggeration. With some momentum LeBron's actually a pretty good 2-footed leaper. He's just not elite. You don't do this without being able to sky off 2 feet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWrHdRqkBs

[3ba11]

Bad? That's an exaggeration. With some momentum LeBron's actually a pretty good 2-footed leaper. He's just not elite. You don't do this without being able to sky off 2 feet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWrHdRqkBs


Everyone looks great smashing on little guys with a running start - you would look pretty good too Indian Guy

Lebron simply has weak explosion in traffic, such as a hop-step, straight vertical, or drop step (1-step vertical)

Otoh, Jordan rputinely smashed on 7-footers off 2-feet in tight spaces amongst heavy traffic.. :confusedshrug:.