Why 1980 Kareem playoff run is overrated

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kareem lacked total minutes played. Logging just 618 minutes due to the 1st round short best of three format and not playing in the final game. Kawhi Leonard in 2017 only played 1 game of the west finals and still matches Kareem's 1980 VORP at 1.7

The grind is what the playoffs is all about. Insignificant total minutes and failing to play in close out game should disqualify 1980 Kareem to be on that tier with 2019 Kawhi, 2016 LeBron, 1991 Jordan, 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2000 Shaq.

[Rico2016]

Kareem lacked total minutes played. Logging just 618 minutes due to the 1st round short best of three format and not playing in the final game. Kawhi Leonard in 2017 only played 1 game of the west finals and still matches Kareem's 1980 VORP at 1.7

The grind is what the playoffs is all about. Insignificant total minutes and failing to play in close out game should disqualify 1980 Kareem to be on that tier with 2019 Kawhi, 2016 LeBron, 1991 Jordan, 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2000 Shaq.

Nothing is on 2016 LeBron tier. Nice try though :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Who overrates it? Do you see people on here constantly praising it, or putting it among the greatest playoff runs ever? If anything, it's extremely underrated

[Axe]

Kareem lacked total minutes played. Logging just 618 minutes due to the 1st round short best of three format and not playing in the final game. Kawhi Leonard in 2017 only played 1 game of the west finals and still matches Kareem's 1980 VORP at 1.7

The grind is what the playoffs is all about. Insignificant total minutes and failing to play in close out game should disqualify 1980 Kareem to be on that tier with 2019 Kawhi, 2016 LeBron, 1991 Jordan, 1994 Hakeem, 2003 Duncan, 2000 Shaq.
You're just trying to trigger his counterpart with this thread, i tell ya.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nothing is on 2016 LeBron tier. Nice try though :lol

The guy who gets to rest the entire weak east path so he can be well rested? Kawhi is the one who had a nightmare east path.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You're just trying to trigger his counterpart with this thread, i tell ya.

As long as they know that Kawhi is better then Kareem. Kawhi didn't need a teammate who more then triples his assist % like Kareem always had with Oscar/Magic.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Who overrates it? Do you see people on here constantly praising it, or putting it among the greatest playoff runs ever? If anything, it's extremely underrated

I've seen it overrated before on Reddit/realgm

[RRR3]

As long as they know that Kawhi is better then Kareem. Kawhi didn't need a teammate who more then triples his assist % like Kareem always had with Oscar/Magic.
At WHAT?


Certainly not basketball.

[SouBeachTalents]

I've seen it overrated before on Reddit/realgm
Guy puts up peak Shaq numbers, but because CBS made voters change their FMVP vote to Magic, it hardly ever gets talked about. Your reasons in the OP don't do anything to address what exactly makes it overrated. Not having a first round or some arbitrary advanced number aren't good enough reasons for why a guy putting up 32/12/3/4 on 57% in a championship run is overrated

[Akeem34TheDream]

I like Kawhi too but OP is such a weird troll.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Guy puts up peak Shaq numbers, but because CBS made voters change their FMVP vote to Magic, it hardly ever gets talked about. Your reasons in the OP don't do anything to address what exactly makes it overrated. Not having a first round or some arbitrary advanced number aren't good enough reasons for why a guy putting up 32/12/3/4 on 57% in a championship run is overrated

Shaq played 1000 minutes in 2000. Kareem was at 618. That's a massive gap that shouldn't be ignored, the grind of playoffs is everything. On top of that, closeout games are the toughest and Kareem wasn't there for that. Lakers offense actually was better in the final game without Kareem and with Magic as the best player.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

At WHAT?


Certainly not basketball.

I wasn't talking about religion practices, that's for sure.

Kareem had Oscar his first title who averaged about triple the assist % as him. He went most of the 70s without having any type of team success besides that 1 title. Where's the dominance? Especially when its an ABA/crackhead league.

1985 title he was good but already old man Kareem by that time. Magic averaged triple the assists as Kareem

Kareem was always carried by other stars having to carry the load with their passing.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

People "talk about" Kareem winning FMVP because he SHOULD have. The playoff run itself isn't overrated and hardly mentioned.

Strange thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

At WHAT?


Certainly not basketball.

"Load management." :lol

For context, Kareem played all 82 games and 38.3 MPG in the regular season. Kawhi showed up for only 60 and played 34.0 MPG. Yet we are hearing "grind" as an argument for Kawhi?

KAJ in the 1980 playoffs: 32/12/3 with 4 blocks, 1 steal on 61% TS
Kawhi in the 2019 playoffs: 31/9/4 with 2 steals, 1 block on 62% TS

So Kawhi was fresher than KAJ being a part-time player yet produced less.


Guy puts up peak Shaq numbers, but because CBS made voters change their FMVP vote to Magic, it hardly ever gets talked about.

:applause:


He went most of the 70s without having any type of team success besides that 1 title. Where's the dominance?

Kareem: 6 MVP's
Kawhi: 0 MVP's

The difference is Kareem's team was the one suffering injuries in the 70's; with Kawhi it was the other team which gifted him a ring...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

"Load management." :lol

For context, Kareem played all 82 games and 38.3 MPG in the regular season. Kawhi showed up for only 60 and played 34.0 MPG. Yet we are hearing "grind" as an argument for Kawhi?

KAJ in the 1980 playoffs: 32/12/3 with 4 blocks, 1 steal on 61% TS
Kawhi in the 2019 playoffs: 31/9/4 with 2 steals, 1 block on 62% TS

So Kawhi was fresher than KAJ being a part-time player yet produced less.



:applause:



Kareem: 6 MVP's
Kawhi: 0 MVP's

The difference is Kareem's team was the one suffering injuries in the 70's; with Kawhi it was the other team which gifted him a ring...

I just find it ironic that people get on Kawhi for taking meaningless regular season games off vs bad teams. Yet, Kareem can miss the elimination game and play nearly 400 less playoff minutes. The grind of the playoffs is what matters, not regular season games against the Knicks lol

Kawhi was never gifted a ring, he beat Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing time just like LeBron did in 2016.

Kareem always had a goat level point guard on his team that averaged triple the assists as him, without them he never won crap. Entire 1970s with 1 ring is embarrassing for a goat level player. Dave Cowens was too much for him to handle lol

[tgards79]

How can anyone overrate anything related to Kareem?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How can anyone overrate anything related to Kareem?

Plenty of reasons to overrate him.

- He wasn't a superstar for half his rings. 1985 was a good run but he was arguably a worse scorer then James Worthy that year.

- he played in a weak 70s era and only managed 1 title

- Injured during 1980 closeout game and Lakers played better without him

- Always needed a goat level point guard on his team to win

- 1988 lakers won a title when 40 year old Kareem was a -2 BPM and basically playing in a wheelchair. Magic proved he didn't need Kareem to do anything for an entire playoff run and could still win a title.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yet, Kareem can miss the elimination game

He broke his ankle, he didn't miss the game because he didn't feel like showing up to work that day like Kawhi. Remember the time a healthy Kawhi refused to play for an entire season to force his way out of San Antonio?


play nearly 400 less playoff minutes

He deserves blame for getting a bye and then cruising through the 2nd and WCF 8-2?


Kawhi was never gifted a ring, he beat Curry/Klay/Dray with 1 of them missing time

Golden State was down 3 of 5 starters, including KD, Klay, Cousins. If Klay, who was torching the Raptors, doesn't get hurt the Warriors force a Game 7 and probably win. They could absorb losing 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

Kareem's teams went 3-14 (14 win pace), 7-13 (31 win pace) when he got hurt. Not everybody can have teams that go 17-5 (63 win pace) or 46-18 (59 win pace) without you, like Kawhi. Kawhi is the luckiest superstar in history in terms of teams he has been on. Every minute of his career has been on a contender. Who else has had that?


Dave Cowens was too much for him to handle lol

That is news to Cowens. Kareem torched him so badly the Celtics had to double and triple team Kareem each time he touched the ball in Game 7 because Cowens couldn't handle it. KAJ still had 26/13/4 against triple teams.

[Roundball_Rock]

All bad reasons cited.


He wasn't a superstar for half his rings. 1985 was a good run but he was arguably a worse scorer then James Worthy that year.

He was 4th in MVP voting in 85' and 5th as late as 86'. Just along for the ride, eh?

Kareem was the clear #1 option. Cut the Worthy stuff out. Worthy was a great player but we saw what happened when he was forced into the #1 role/without Magic there. His efficiency fell through the floor. Kareem is Kareem no matter what. Worthy benefited from being the third best offensive player (he averaged 17.6 that year--not much more than Scott who was fourth at 16.0).


he played in a weak 70s era and only managed 1 title


Injuries to his 2nd and/or 3rd options in the playoffs somehow make him a worse player? That he went to a LA team that was gutted to acquire him makes him worse?


Injured during 1980 closeout game and Lakers played better without him

Anything can happen in one game. What is truly revealing is sustained success without a player. This is a terrible line of argument for a Kawhi partisan of all people...:D


Always needed a goat level point guard on his team to win

Magic wasn't all-NBA until 1982. Magic actually shared PG duties his first 4 years with Norm Nixon. Lost in mythology but it happened...

Magic (1980-1983): 9.0 APG
Nixon (1980-1983): 7.9 APG


1988 lakers won a title when 40 year old Kareem was a -2 BPM and basically playing in a wheelchair.

15 PPG is being in a wheelchair? When Riley had the season on the line in Game 6, whose number did he call and who came through? As Bill Simmons has said, Riley wanted the surest 2 points in history.


Magic proved he didn't need Kareem

What did Magic win without Kareem again? The Lakers couldn't get out the 2nd round the first year Magic retired and in 91' lost badly in the finals with no Cap' around. That was a wrap as Magic had to retire after that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He broke his ankle, he didn't miss the game because he didn't feel like showing up to work that day like Kawhi. Remember the time a healthy Kawhi refused to play for an entire season to force his way out of San Antonio?



He deserves blame for getting a bye and then cruising through the 2nd and WCF 8-2?



Golden State was down 3 of 5 starters, including KD, Klay, Cousins. If Klay, who was torching the Raptors, doesn't get hurt the Warriors force a Game 7 and probably win. They could absorb losing 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

Kareem's teams went 3-14 (14 win pace), 7-13 (31 win pace) when he got hurt. Not everybody can have teams that go 17-5 (63 win pace) or 46-18 (59 win pace) without you, like Kawhi. Kawhi is the luckiest superstar in history in terms of teams he has been on. Every minute of his career has been on a contender. Who else has had that?



That is news to Cowens. Kareem torched him so badly the Celtics had to double and triple team Kareem each time he touched the ball in Game 7 because Cowens couldn't handle it. KAJ still had 26/13/4 against triple teams.

So you're telling me Kareem gets a free pass in the playoffs by playing less then 700 minutes but still can't keep himself healthy? And Lakers suddenly start dominating without him in the closeout game with an offensive rating of 115 and score 123 points? Wow

As far as the 2019 finals, cousins played all 6 games and was the main reason they won a game. Nobody beat Durant warriors, so your point is irrelevant when bringing him up. Klay missed a game just like dray missed a game in 2016, except Dray is way more impactful and valuable to the team. That series wasn't even close, raptors averaged 116 offensive rating. Kawhi actually played in the closeout game, unlike 1980 Kareem.

1974 bucks had a 101 offensive rating during regular season. In the finals, Kareem led them to an embarrassing 92 offensive rating. That's a 9 point drop. Kareem wasn't doing shit besides putting up empty stats, like the majority of his career.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

All bad reasons cited.



He was 4th in MVP voting in 85' and 5th as late as 86'. Just along for the ride, eh?

Kareem was the clear #1 option. Cut the Worthy stuff out. Worthy was a great player but we saw what happened when he was forced into the #1 role/without Magic there. His efficiency fell through the floor. Kareem is Kareem no matter what. Worthy benefited from being the third best offensive player (he averaged 17.6 that year--not much more than Scott who was fourth at 16.0).



Injuries to his 2nd and/or 3rd options in the playoffs somehow make him a worse player? That he went to a LA team that was gutted to acquire him makes him worse?



Anything can happen in one game. What is truly revealing is sustained success without a player. This is a terrible line of argument for a Kawhi partisan of all people...:D



Magic wasn't all-NBA until 1982. Magic actually shared PG duties his first 4 years with Norm Nixon. Lost in mythology but it happened...

Magic (1980-1983): 9.0 APG
Nixon (1980-1983): 7.9 APG



15 PPG is being in a wheelchair? When Riley had the season on the line in Game 6, whose number did he call and who came through? As Bill Simmons has said, Riley wanted the surest 2 points in history.



What did Magic win without Kareem again? The Lakers couldn't get out the 2nd round the first year Magic retired and in 91' lost badly in the finals with no Cap' around. That was a wrap as Magic had to retire after that.

1985 Kareem averaged 2 more PPG in playoffs then Worthy. Worthy also had better scoring stats in the closeout game. Playing with the best point guard ever and a scorer that is nearly on his level. How is that a great run? Good run only like I said.

Kareem either had Magic/Oscar tripling his assists. Or he had two guys at one time that were doubling his assists Magic/Nixon. Either way, he was always getting carried in terms of play making. We saw what Kareem does without great playmaking in the 1974 finals when he led bucks to a whopping 92 offensive rating.

Kareem literally had 0.0 VORP in 1988 playoffs. Dude couldn't even get .1 VORP and your trying to push him like he did shit. Do you realize even the biggest scrubs on the team have gotten 0.1 VORP during a playoff run? Kareem literally had zero point ****ing zero wow. Lakers proved he can literally have zero value and they can still win the title without him. Let that digest in your head, 0.0 VORP in 24 playoff games.

[Horatio33]

OP spends a lot of time looking at spreadsheets and numbers, but doesn't watch much if any basketball.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

OP spends a lot of time looking at spreadsheets and numbers, but doesn't watch much if any basketball.

-2 BPM and 0.0 VORP show me one decent player ever that posted numbers like this during a playoff run? Kareem's old ass did that in 1988. Lakers still won the title.

Imagine if bulls won the title when Jordan had 0.0 VORP for a playoff run, he would get killed for that.

[Roundball_Rock]

So you're telling me Kareem gets a free pass in the playoffs by playing less then 700 minutes but still can't keep himself healthy?

Yes, the most durable player ever who played 20 years without any major injury should be criticized for a lack of durability in an argument in defense of the most delicate flower the NBA has ever produced. :confusedshrug: Kawhi's fragility led to talk about banning back-to-backs altogether. All because of one delicate flower 70+ years of basketball have to be changed. :rolleyes:


cousins played all 6 games and was the main reason they won a game

He wasn't himself. 8/5/2 in only 18 MPG.


That series wasn't even close

Klay missed a game just like dray missed a game in 2016, except Dray is way more impactful and valuable to the team

Klay was torching the Raptors and the Warriors had the lead when he went out. If he doesn't get hurt, there is at least a Game 7. So he missed a game and then got hurt in the 3rd quarter of another; GS lost both games...


1974 bucks had a 101 offensive rating during regular season. In the finals, Kareem led them

33/12/5 and 34/12/6 when Cowens single covered him for 6 games.

As to their drop, Oscar was hurt in the playoffs and ratings always drop in the postseason as defenses get tougher. Back then you could play defense too.


1985 Kareem averaged 2 more PPG in playoffs then Worthy

You have to look at match ups, defensive schemes, etc. The #3 option isn't getting the same defensive attention the #1 option gets. Kareem is the reason they won the finals.


How is that a great run? Good run only like I said.

He was 38--what were other legends doing at 38? Kareem was winning FMVP and torching Parish. You can't have it both ways on raw stats: point to a stacked team and then also say he didn't post big numbers. Stacked teams deflate numbers. He wasn't taking every shot like Kawhi was.


Kareem either had Magic/Oscar tripling his assists. Or he had two guys at one time that were doubling his assists Magic/Nixon

Well, he was a center. He averaged 5 APG for his prime; as a comparison MJ, a guard, averaged 6.


Kareem literally had 0.0 VORP in 1988 playoffs. Dude couldn't even get .1 VORP and your trying to push him like he did shit.

87' he averaged 18 PPG in the RS, 19 PPG in the playoffs and 22 PPG in the finals. 88' he declined further but 15 PPG (14 in the PO) isn't "nothing." That is what Bosh averaged on Miami, for example--and Bosh was in his prime and touted as a "superstar" for 15/7/1 in the playoffs.

Anyway, as you noted, he was on a stacked team. He could have averaged more, despite being 40-41, on an average or bad team.


Lakers proved he can literally have zero value and they can still win the title without him

He didn't have "zero value." His VORP sucked because by then he was contributing only in scoring and FG %. But his value as a scorer doesn't show up on a stat sheet--which is why Riley called his number with the season on the line, not peak Magic's or prime Worthy's. He needed 2 points and knew who the best bet to get it still was, even at age 41. :pimp:



Imagine if bulls won the title when Jordan had 0.0 VORP for a playoff run, he would get killed for that.

What was MJ's VORP at ages 40-41?

[Whoah10115]

I want to argue logic.

But what's the logic in arguing with OP here?

Somehow this is a Kawhi thread? Lol.

Btw he came into my restaurant a year and a half ago. All those stories about his uncle are completely true. Kawhi is lowkey, but was a regular and waitstaff bored with him. Never tipped more than 20%.

[Horatio33]

-2 BPM and 0.0 VORP show me one decent player ever that posted numbers like this during a playoff run? Kareem's old ass did that in 1988. Lakers still won the title.

Imagine if bulls won the title when Jordan had 0.0 VORP for a playoff run, he would get killed for that.

Are you 3ball?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yes, the most durable player ever who played 20 years without any major injury should be criticized for a lack of durability in an argument in defense of the most delicate flower the NBA has ever produced. :confusedshrug: Kawhi's fragility led to talk about banning back-to-backs altogether. All because of one delicate flower 70+ years of basketball have to be changed. :rolleyes:



He wasn't himself. 8/5/2 in only 18 MPG.




Klay was torching the Raptors and the Warriors had the lead when he went out. If he doesn't get hurt, there is at least a Game 7. So he missed a game and then got hurt in the 3rd quarter of another; GS lost both games...



33/12/5 and 34/12/6 when Cowens single covered him for 6 games.

As to their drop, Oscar was hurt in the playoffs and ratings always drop in the postseason as defenses get tougher. Back then you could play defense too.



You have to look at match ups, defensive schemes, etc. The #3 option isn't getting the same defensive attention the #1 option gets. Kareem is the reason they won the finals.



He was 38--what were other legends doing at 38? Kareem was winning FMVP and torching Parish. You can't have it both ways on raw stats: point to a stacked team and then also say he didn't post big numbers. Stacked teams deflate numbers. He wasn't taking every shot like Kawhi was.



Well, he was a center. He averaged 5 APG for his prime; as a comparison MJ, a guard, averaged 6.



87' he averaged 18 PPG in the RS, 19 PPG in the playoffs and 22 PPG in the finals. 88' he declined further but 15 PPG (14 in the PO) isn't "nothing." That is what Bosh averaged on Miami, for example--and Bosh was in his prime and touted as a "superstar" for 15/7/1 in the playoffs.

Anyway, as you noted, he was on a stacked team. He could have averaged more, despite being 40-41, on an average or bad team.



He didn't have "zero value." His VORP sucked because by then he was contributing only in scoring and FG %. But his value as a scorer doesn't show up on a stat sheet--which is why Riley called his number with the season on the line, not peak Magic's or prime Worthy's. He needed 2 points and knew who the best bet to get it still was, even at age 41. :pimp:



What was MJ's VORP at ages 40-41?

The 2019 finals series was tied 2-2 when Klay Thompson returned to play on his home court in game 4. Lets see what happened that game.

Kawhi Leonard 36 points 69% TS, 21.2 BPM, zero turnovers. 89 defensive rating and held warriors to a 97 offensive rating.

That's Klay torching them? Raptors in a game 7 win because they had the best player on both teams in Kawhi who torched them.

As far as Kareem, there's a lot of problems I have with him that you haven't addressed

1) how come Kareem always needs a teammate that triples him in assists to win all his rings? He always failed to win a ring unless he had Oscar/magic averaging 3 times the assists or a pair of two teammates averaging double the assists. Kareem was always carried play making wise. Kawhi was close to Lowry in assist % for their title run, he wasn't tripling him like Oscar/Magic were for Kareem when they hold his hand to cross the street.

2) how come magic can still win a ring in 1988 when Kareem is adding zero value and basically an inefficient scorer that plays no defense or rebounding. The Lakers won a ring when he contributed absolutely nothing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Are you 3ball?

No, my point was Kareem gets special treatment compared to other all time greats.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2016 warriors vs 2019 warriors

Curry = Curry

Klay missed 1 game and 3 quarters vs Draymond missing 1 game

Harrison barnes = D cousins but cousins played way better actually

Iggy put up his same 8PPG

Your argument is Klay missed 3 quarters? Which Draymond makes up for any way because he's more impactful? Or was it Durant's ghost on 2016 warriors? I don't see your argument holding up at all.

[Axe]

Are you 3ball?
Boy, he surely does have a lot of dups in this board..

[Psileas]

He deserves blame for getting a bye and then cruising through the 2nd and WCF 8-2?

Νοt even that. He got zero byes. He played exactly as much as the playoff leaders of the season, minus the last game. Playing in his last game would raise him to #3 or #4 in minutes played and as high as #2 in mpg.
Garbage thread.

[Phoenix]

As long as they know that Kawhi is better then Kareem.

I realize now why I keep coming back to this board. It's for these treasured moments. If I went to realGM where basketball discussion was taken seriously, posts like this would never see the light of day. But then you'd just be talking ball without these kinds of takes....and that's boring I guess.

So, I get it now. Kudos to the owners here. You've provided a canvas for nutcases to say the most amazing shit and we hang around because there's some masochistic entertainment in watching it unfold.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Raptors are 63-23 (60 win pace over 82 games) without Kawhi over the past two years. What does that say about how he allegedly "carried" the team? The team he left has a better record than the team he joined. :lol


That's Klay torching them?

We all saw what he was doing in Game 6 before he got hurt.


how come Kareem always needs a teammate that triples him in assists to win all his rings?

1971: Oscar 8 APG, KAJ 3 APG. Oscar accounted for 30% of team assists.
1974: Oscar 6 APG, KAJ 5 APG. Oscar accounted for 24% of team assists.
1980: Magic 7 APG, KAJ 5 APG. Magic accounted for 25% of assists--did not even lead the team.
1982: Magic 10 APG, KAJ 3 APG. Magic accounted for 33% of assists.

What is the issue here? That Magic averaged 2 more APG or Oscar 1 more APG than a center? This undercuts them--that is their primary role and KAJ is near them in his prime? :oldlol:


Kareem was always carried play making wise

Kareem averaged 5 APG for his prime (a 10 year prime, not 3-4 part-time seasons like Kawhi). How about Kawhi?

2014: 2.0 APG
2019: 3.3 APG
2016-2020: 3.5 APG

APG is your argument? :confusedshrug:


how come magic can still win a ring in 1988 when Kareem is adding zero value

While putting up prime Bosh and prime Love playoff numbers? That is zero value?

1988 KAJ (41 years old): 14/6/2
2011-2014 Bosh (26-29 years old): 15/7/1
2015-2018 Love (26-29 years old): 15/10/2
2014 Kawhi (22 years old): 14/7/2
1987-1988 KAJ (40-41 years old): 16/6/2

Zero value?


Playing in his last game would raise him to #3 or #4 in minutes played and as high as #2 in mpg.

True. It is a deceptive argument that OP is making.

[Rico2016]

He broke his ankle, he didn't miss the game because he didn't feel like showing up to work that day like Kawhi. Remember the time a healthy Kawhi refused to play for an entire season to force his way out of San Antonio?



He deserves blame for getting a bye and then cruising through the 2nd and WCF 8-2?



Golden State was down 3 of 5 starters, including KD, Klay, Cousins. If Klay, who was torching the Raptors, doesn't get hurt the Warriors force a Game 7 and probably win. They could absorb losing 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

Kareem's teams went 3-14 (14 win pace), 7-13 (31 win pace) when he got hurt. Not everybody can have teams that go 17-5 (63 win pace) or 46-18 (59 win pace) without you, like Kawhi. Kawhi is the luckiest superstar in history in terms of teams he has been on. Every minute of his career has been on a contender. Who else has had that?



That is news to Cowens. Kareem torched him so badly the Celtics had to double and triple team Kareem each time he touched the ball in Game 7 because Cowens couldn't handle it. KAJ still had 26/13/4 against triple teams.

Decimation

Kawhi is stil sniffing top 40

Kareem is top 3

LBJ, KAJ, Russell

[HoopsNY]

I realize now why I keep coming back to this board. It's for these treasured moments. If I went to realGM where basketball discussion was taken seriously, posts like this would never see the light of day. But then you'd just be talking ball without these kinds of takes....and that's boring I guess.

So, I get it now. Kudos to the owners here. You've provided a canvas for nutcases to say the most amazing shit and we hang around because there's some masochistic entertainment in watching it unfold.

I keep hearing about RealGM. Is it a lot better there for basketball discussions? This forum is seriously the same tear down posts every day.

[Phoenix]

I keep hearing about RealGM. Is it a lot better there for basketball discussions? This forum is seriously the same tear down posts every day.

As far as I see the moderation is more strict. There aren't bunch of goons with alts quoting each other and starting the same threads with slightly differently wording, for one. And I'm convinced a few of those accounts are the site owners.

I don't know...this place is weird and I guess that's the appeal. You may get the odd topic that breeds good discussion but any topics revolving around Lebron, Kobe or MJ, you may as well accept that you're gonna have to wade through tons of troll shit to get to a few decent posts. I haven't used the ignore function yet but there's about 10-15 accounts that if wiped off my screen improve the experience dramatically.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ignore makes scrolling a lot better. If you are in the mood for hearing from them (usually to see what BS they are spewing), or looking for a laugh, you can always elect to view an individual post while maintaining them on the ignore list.

[Phoenix]

Ignore makes scrolling a lot better. If you are in the mood for hearing from them (usually to see what BS they are spewing), or looking for a laugh, you can always elect to view an individual post while maintaining them on the ignore list.

True that. I don't know, ignore just seems like an extreme position to take for what is ultimately meaningless conversation between strangers but sometimes you just want to 'try' and have a decent exchange without all the bullshit you have to wade through to get there.

[insidious301]

As far as I see the moderation is more strict. There aren't bunch of goons with alts quoting each other and starting the same threads with slightly differently wording, for one. And I'm convinced a few of those accounts are the site owners.

I don't know...this place is weird and I guess that's the appeal. You may get the odd topic that breeds good discussion but any topics revolving around Lebron, Kobe or MJ, you may as well accept that you're gonna have to wade through tons of troll shit to get to a few decent posts. I haven't used the ignore function yet but there's about 10-15 accounts that if wiped off my screen improve the experience dramatically.

Whose posts would you recommend reading?

I used to post here back when OSB, Regul8r, PHILA and ShaqAttack were regulars. Great informed posters. From what I can tell, in that Last Dance thread, CoastalMark/Kblaze/Clipperfan86/RRR3/Kuniva/DaRealist are all pretty good. I think you are a solid poster too. Roundball_Rock is also a good one. Heard he was an alt account of "Rico2016" though and other various trolls like DaHeezy.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball_Rock is also a good one. Heard he was an alt account of "Rico2016" though and other various trolls like DaHeezy.

Totally baseless slander from MJ stans (one who has been banned multiple times). These are the same people who claimed I was Fatal9 for many years even though we had no similarities in style (we simply had similar views on two players, MJ and Pippen).

I hadn't even posted here for 4-5 years until two months ago. Yet I was creating alts while gone for that long?

The problem with MJ stans like those are they only post in threads involving LeBron, Jordan, and Pippen so they fail to get a real picture of a poster's views. They define every poster by their stance on those few issues. Therefore, since no other issues exist, they all must be one poster. :lol To these fools I am a LeBron stan, even though I argue against them at times in threads. They don't see it because they aren't those threads.

It also is convenient: they take a pounding getting exposed for they BS spew so anything to discredit a poster as Deheezey or whatever (who the hell is that?) serves their teetering agenda.

[insidious301]

Totally baseless slander from MJ stans (one who has been banned multiple times). These are the same people who claimed I was Fatal9 for many years even though we had no similarities in style (we simply had similar views on two players, MJ and Pippen).

I hadn't even posted here for 4-5 years until two months ago.

Yeah I don't read those other guys posts so I wouldn't even know. In one of the last topics I made (Who was the second best perimeter player in the 90s?) a poster said that he knew what my "agenda" was. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Whose posts would you recommend reading?

I used to post here back when OSB, Regul8r, PHILA and ShaqAttack were regulars. Great informed posters. From what I can tell, in that Last Dance thread, CoastalMark/Kblaze/Clipperfan86/RRR3/Kuniva/DaRealist are all pretty good. I think you are a solid poster too. Roundball_Rock is also a good one. Heard he was an alt account of "Rico2016" though and other various trolls like DaHeezy.

Thanks for the sentiments.

Yeah I've been around since 2010 but I 'retired' my first account. All of those names you listed I agree with. Theres a number of posters here that actually are good, but I could sooner and easier come up with a list for the ignore trash bin. I dont care if someone agrees or disagrees with my views, just present intellectually honest arguments and I can talk with you all day. I may even learn something or be convinced to have a change of mind depending on the argument. I'm not here to 'be right' which is what I think alot of people get caught up in, but that's not exclusive to this site.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, that is the value of ignore. You can scroll past the trolls/bad faith posters and see what everyone else is saying. If you want to read them, you can do it on a case-by-case basis.

You have people who change their criteria from post to post, thread to thread, day to day. It is hard to take them seriously.

[Rico2016]

I keep hearing about RealGM. Is it a lot better there for basketball discussions? This forum is seriously the same tear down posts every day.

It's not that good for 3ball types. He was banned from their site in 2 posts because they don't let clowns say the stuff he says. Be careful out there buddy.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Νοt even that. He got zero byes. He played exactly as much as the playoff leaders of the season, minus the last game. Playing in his last game would raise him to #3 or #4 in minutes played and as high as #2 in mpg.
Garbage thread.

He's playing in a soft playoff era, when total minutes was restricted. Even with that, he still can't handle it and gets injured before the closeout game. The closeout games are usually the toughest but Lakers dominated without Kareem and put up 123 points. I'm pretty sure the offensive rating without Kareem was higher then most if not all games with Kareem as well.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The Raptors are 63-23 (60 win pace over 82 games) without Kawhi over the past two years. What does that say about how he allegedly "carried" the team? The team he left has a better record than the team he joined. :lol



We all saw what he was doing in Game 6 before he got hurt.



1971: Oscar 8 APG, KAJ 3 APG. Oscar accounted for 30% of team assists.
1974: Oscar 6 APG, KAJ 5 APG. Oscar accounted for 24% of team assists.
1980: Magic 7 APG, KAJ 5 APG. Magic accounted for 25% of assists--did not even lead the team.
1982: Magic 10 APG, KAJ 3 APG. Magic accounted for 33% of assists.

What is the issue here? That Magic averaged 2 more APG or Oscar 1 more APG than a center? This undercuts them--that is their primary role and KAJ is near them in his prime? :oldlol:



Kareem averaged 5 APG for his prime (a 10 year prime, not 3-4 part-time seasons like Kawhi). How about Kawhi?

2014: 2.0 APG
2019: 3.3 APG
2016-2020: 3.5 APG

APG is your argument? :confusedshrug:



While putting up prime Bosh and prime Love playoff numbers? That is zero value?

1988 KAJ (41 years old): 14/6/2
2011-2014 Bosh (26-29 years old): 15/7/1
2015-2018 Love (26-29 years old): 15/10/2
2014 Kawhi (22 years old): 14/7/2
1987-1988 KAJ (40-41 years old): 16/6/2

Zero value?



True. It is a deceptive argument that OP is making.

Since you want to play this hypothetical game with Klay being healthy and going game 7. I can play that game as well with Durant not playing game 5, the series ends right there. On top of that, game 7 is in raptors arena.

Lowry is +8 on assist % over Kawhi during title run.

Oscar is +23.9 on assist % over Kareem during their title run.

1980 Kareem couldn't even win finals MVP because he missed the elimination game when Magic dominated.

1982 Kareem had two players in Magic/Nixon who were both +14 on assists % over Kareem

1985 magic was goat level already

Just imagine if Kawhi had a point guard tripling him in assists or two point guards doubling him assists, imagine how easy Kawhi would have it and how much his efficiency increases. Kareem was privileged for all his rings. When he wasn't being carried play making wise, he never won. Kareem literally did nothing of value in 1988 and his team still won the title. He was PRIVILEGED in the playoffs, which is a lot more meaningful then taking load management games against the Knicks in regular season.

[Axe]

He hates mj but now, he hates kawhi as well. :oldlol:

Pathetic scum :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He hates mj but now, he hates kawhi as well. :oldlol:

Pathetic scum :lol

Guys who know the game understand how deadly Kawhi's pullup midrange shot is. How damn lethal that makes him as a scorer just like MJ. Kawhi is also the most disciplined superstar of all time in terms of shot selection and that's why he's the most efficient superstar of all time.

No, they just want to drool over LeBron's assist numbers.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I keep hearing about RealGM. Is it a lot better there for basketball discussions? This forum is seriously the same tear down posts every day.

Go to realgm if you want to hear 1970s ass kissers. 70sfan in particular he will kiss ass for ya as much as you like. Read my posts if you want to hear somebody calling it how it is based on studying thousands of hours of NBA game tape.

[RRR3]

Kawhi isn’t the most efficient superstar of all time what nonsense is this? OP is on bath salts.

[light]

There is nobody out here hyping up Kareem's playoff season from 40 years ago.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi isn’t the most efficient superstar of all time what nonsense is this? OP is on bath salts.

My thread is about the grind of the playoffs. 2010s for an example had a longer grind then 1980 due to total games played. So taking that in consideration give me another player with a playoff run of 700+ total points on 63% TS? Unless you can do that, Kawhi 2019 playoff run was the GOAT scoring playoff run.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

There is nobody out here hyping up Kareem's playoff season from 40 years ago.

I just wanted to let the Kareem fans know that his 1980 run is equal to a 2017 Kawhi run. Its not equal to a full championship run like 2019 Kawhi, 2003 Duncan, 2000 Shaq, 1993 Jordan, 2016 Lebron. So don't compare Kareem to any of those.

1 ring in the entire 1970s is what he woud of been known for if he never played with Magic Johnson.

[StrongLurk]

My thread is about the grind of the playoffs. 2010s for an example had a longer grind then 1980 due to total games played. So taking that in consideration give me another player with a playoff run of 700+ total points on 63% TS? Unless you can do that, Kawhi 2019 playoff run was the GOAT scoring playoff run.

Nothing Kawhi has done regarding scoring in the playoffs in better then peak MJ lol. Kawhi also shot 61.9% TS in 2019, not 63% TS.

Lebron in 2018 scored 42.5ppg per 100 POSS on 61.9% TS, 922 total minutes
Kawhi in 2019 scored 39ppg per 100 POSS on 61.9% TS, 939 total minutes

Lebron was just as good at scoring or better than Kawhi, not even factoring the rest of Lebron's games being better than Kawhi.

[Roundball_Rock]

We can't lose sight of the fact that we are hearing an argument for Kawhi over Kareem over--of all things--durability. In other words, an argument for the most delicate flower in sports versus the most durable legend in NBA history. You can't make this stuff up. :lol


1980 Kareem couldn't even win finals MVP

He did win the vote--CBS forced it to be changed.

Yes, Kareem had it easy. He was winning FMVP as a 14/6/2 player...Kawhi has had the easiest path of any superstar in history in the sense of he has never played on a team that was not a contender. The worst team he has been on to date was a 55 win team. He leaves a team with them getting no compensation back for him and they have the 3rd best record in the NBA--ahead of Kawhi's own team.


Guys who know the game understand how deadly Kawhi's pullup midrange shot is. How damn lethal that makes him as a scorer just like MJ.

Guys who know the game know who Kareem was.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We can't lose sight of the fact that we are hearing an argument for Kawhi over Kareem over--of all things--durability. In other words, an argument for the most delicate flower in sports versus the most durable legend in NBA history. You can't make this stuff up. :lol



He did win the vote--CBS forced it to be changed.

Yes, Kareem had it easy. He was winning FMVP as a 14/6/2 player...Kawhi has had the easiest path of any superstar in history in the sense of he has never played on a team that was not a contender. The worst team he has been on to date was a 55 win team. He leaves a team with them getting no compensation back for him and they have the 3rd best record in the NBA--ahead of Kawhi's own team.



Guys who know the game know who Kareem was.

Kawhi has never played with any player even close to Magic or Oscar. The best Kawhi had was 37 year old Duncan and Kyle Lowry.

Kareem had 0.0 VORP in 1988 when Lakers won a title

Kawhi led spurs in VORP in 2014 when Spurs won a title

those two situations aren't even comparable.

2018 raptors never won a game not in 1st round. That's not comparable to 1988 Lakers situation either

[Rico2016]

Imagine a top 40 player with terrible leadership, 2,000 career playoff points, 0 MVPs, and no passing ability (2.7 apg career :lol) being compared to a top 10 player (MJ).

#NotMyGoat

Bad leadership and no passing abilities = The Kawhi / MJ prototype

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP is still comparing Kawhi to Kareem...who played alongside Magic. Another Top 5 great.

And by "comparing" I mean statistically. 4 pages in, and this oversight has gone completely over the OP's head.

Keep trying to "make sure" Kawhi is better though :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Imagine a top 40 player with terrible leadership, 2,000 career playoff points, 0 MVPs, and no passing ability (2.7 apg career :lol) being compared to a top 10 player (MJ).

#NotMyGoat

Bad leadership and no passing abilities = The Kawhi / MJ prototype

Kawhi Leonard has underrated passing ability, he led clippers to a top 3 offense averaging 5 assists a game. Kawhi 2019 finals also averaged more APG then 1984 Larry Bird finals. Kawhi also led raptors to a 116 offensive rating which destroys cavs 2016 offensive rating.

700+ points on 63% TS in a single playoff run, do you know anybody who has done it? Kawhi has.

[HoopsNY]

Go to realgm if you want to hear 1970s ass kissers. 70sfan in particular he will kiss ass for ya as much as you like. Read my posts if you want to hear somebody calling it how it is based on studying thousands of hours of NBA game tape.

With all due respect, you created a thread about Kareem's 1980 playoff run claiming it's overrated. The last time I checked, no one really rates it all that high to begin with.

Kareem was the best player on that team and led them to 60 wins. His team beat a Sixers team that was ranked #1 in Drtg. Despite that, Kareem averaged 33.4 ppg 13.6 rebs 4.6 blks on 55%. Guys like Caldwell Jones and Bobby Jones were powerless against Kareem.

Not to mention, Kareem put up 32/12/3 on 57% with 3.9 blks in that playoffs. If anything, Kareem's performance during that postseason is underrated, not overrated.

Sure, he didn't play game 6. But had he, what would have been the likely outcome? Another 35/15/5 performance? What is the point of this post other than tearing down one of the greatest players of all time, that shows a serious lack of appreciation for what he was able to do during that postseason run?

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi is in his 8th season and still doesn't have 10,000 points. We are comparing him to Kareem?

It will be interesting to see how the Raptors and Clippers fare in the playoffs this year. One team added Kawhi and PG, the other lost Kawhi, who apparently is better than the GOAT now, but magically did better in the RS than the team adding 2 superstars. You lose the GOAT and have a 59 win pace?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP is still comparing Kawhi to Kareem...who played alongside Magic. Another Top 5 great.

And by "comparing" I mean statistically. 4 pages in, and this oversight has gone completely over the OP's head.

Keep trying to "make sure" Kawhi is better though :lol

To expand on my post, playoff Kareem had:

Magic - 18/11/9 on 52%FG
Wilkes - 20/8/3 on 48%FG

Does "VORP" account for any of that, or did you just post it because Kawhi's was higher? :confusedshrug:

[Rico2016]

Kawhi is in his 8th season and still doesn't have 10,000 points. We are comparing him to Kareem?

It will be interesting to see how the Raptors and Clippers fare in the playoffs this year. One team added Kawhi and PG, the other lost Kawhi, who apparently is better than the GOAT now, but magically did better in the RS than the team adding 2 superstars. You lose the GOAT and have a 59 win pace?

Plus Kareem can PASS and Kawhi cannot. Plus Kareem was a Center and played with great passers and KAJ still is a superior passer.

Career apg
Kawhi: 2.7
Kareem: 3.6

Peak
Kawhi: 5.0
Kareem: 5.4

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is in his 8th season and still doesn't have 10,000 points. We are comparing him to Kareem?

It will be interesting to see how the Raptors and Clippers fare in the playoffs this year. One team added Kawhi and PG, the other lost Kawhi, who apparently is better than the GOAT now, but magically did better in the RS than the team adding 2 superstars. You lose the GOAT and have a 59 win pace?

1988 lakers won title with Kareem at 0.0 VORP, 1989 lakers went to finals with Kareem at -0.1 VORP, 1991 Lakers won a finals game when Kareem was retired. They had plenty of success without him. I also see people rank Oscar as a top 3 GOAT point guard and he tripled Kareem's assists. That's plenty of help, I don't know what to tell you.

Meanwhile, raptors just win regular season games but can't even win a game past the 1st round.

Spurs were stuck in limbo before drafting Kawhi in 2009-2011 taking multiple 1st round exits.

[Rico2016]

1988 lakers won title with Kareem at 0.0 VORP, 1989 lakers went to finals with Kareem at -0.1 VORP, 1991 Lakers won a finals game when Kareem was retired. They had plenty of success without him. I also see people rank Oscar as a top 3 GOAT point guard and he tripled Kareem's assists. That's plenty of help, I don't know what to tell you.

Meanwhile, raptors just win regular season games but can't even win a game past the 1st round.

Spurs were stuck in limbo before drafting Kawhi in 2009-2011 taking multiple 1st round exits.

2.7 apg :lol

Nope

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Plus Kareem can PASS and Kawhi cannot. Plus Kareem was a Center and played with great passers and KAJ still is a superior passer.

Career apg
Kawhi: 2.7
Kareem: 3.6

Peak
Kawhi: 5.0
Kareem: 5.4

Kawhi can win a title without being tripled in assist % that's my point. Kareem always had a guy tripling his assists or two guys doubling his assists. If someone was carrying Kawhi that hard in playoffs and setting him up with their passes like that? Wow Kawhi would be at 73% TS or some stupid shit

[Rico2016]

Kawhi can win a title without being tripled in assist % that's my point. Kareem always had a guy tripling his assists or two guys doubling his assists. If someone was carrying Kawhi that hard in playoffs and setting him up with their passes like that? Wow Kawhi would be at 73% TS or some stupid shit

Kawhi CANT pass. That's why.

[HoopsNY]

1988 lakers won title with Kareem at 0.0 VORP, 1989 lakers went to finals with Kareem at -0.1 VORP, 1991 Lakers won a finals game when Kareem was retired. They had plenty of success without him. I also see people rank Oscar as a top 3 GOAT point guard and he tripled Kareem's assists. That's plenty of help, I don't know what to tell you.

Meanwhile, raptors just win regular season games but can't even win a game past the 1st round.

Spurs were stuck in limbo before drafting Kawhi in 2009-2011 taking multiple 1st round exits.

The Raptors were an ECF team in 2016, winning 56 games that year. They made the ECSF two years in a row afterwards while also winning in the high 50s.

Last year in their championship year, they were 17-5 without Kawhi. You can't minimize the supporting cast with that kind of production. This of course isn't to say that the Raptors had anywhere near the talent or support for Kawhi that Kareem had in LA.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The Raptors were an ECF team in 2016, winning 56 games that year. They made the ECSF two years in a row afterwards while also winning in the high 50s.

Last year in their championship year, they were 17-5 without Kawhi. You can't minimize the supporting cast with that kind of production. This of course isn't to say that the Raptors had anywhere near the talent or support for Kawhi that Kareem had in LA.

Getting swept by 2018 cavs is highly questionable to me. I thought Oladipo took them to 7 the previous round. Siakam was also a nobody in playoffs before being on Kawhi's team.

[light]

Getting swept by 2018 cavs is highly questionable to me. I thought Oladipo took them to 7 the previous round. Siakam was also a nobody in playoffs before being on Kawhi's team.

That's why Casey was fired. But then again, you're dealing with LeBron - and that was a series the Raptors were predicted to win by so many - which probably caused LeBron to deliver the sweep via anger. It is what it is.

The Raptors are still good after Kawhi. They have more wins, better win percentage, and a better performing defense than Kawhi's team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That's why Casey was fired. But then again, you're dealing with LeBron - and that was a series the Raptors were predicted to win by so many - which probably caused LeBron to deliver the sweep via anger. It is what it is.

The Raptors are still good after Kawhi. They have more wins, better win percentage, and a better performing defense than Kawhi's team.

All they proven is they can get swept by a team that was pushed to 7 by Oladipo and 19 year old Tatum. Come call me when Raptors actually do anything significant in playoffs.

[Phoenix]

Getting swept by 2018 cavs is highly questionable to me. I thought Oladipo took them to 7 the previous round. Siakam was also a nobody in playoffs before being on Kawhi's team.

The Raptors seemed to have a psychological disadvantage against Lebron. As you said the Cavs got taken to 7 by the Pacers in the first round and the Celtics in the ECFs with a cast of up and coming 20 year olds.

[Overdrive]

It's guys like OP who make people hate on players, who don't even deserve the hate, just because they use them to tear down others.

Threads like this will never work out in that player's favour. Comparing Kawhi to Kareem in terms of durability and assists? :lol

[Rico2016]

All they proven is they can get swept by a team that was pushed to 7 by Oladipo and 19 year old Tatum. Come call me when Raptors actually do anything significant in playoffs.

Post the 2018 Cavs vs Pacers series stats.


LeBron should have lost that series. His team production that series was terrinle. LBJ had a higher Game Score than the next 5 teammates COMBINED.

Let that sink in. His roster was awful and that was an NBA record.

[Rico2016]

For those unaware of the Cavs Pacers series

https://i.postimg.cc/D04Lppy9/G-O-A-T-Carry.jpg

LeBron should have lost. Biggest carry job ever

[Roundball_Rock]

Plus Kareem can PASS and Kawhi cannot. Plus Kareem was a Center and played with great passers and KAJ still is a superior passer.

Career apg
Kawhi: 2.7
Kareem: 3.6

Peak
Kawhi: 5.0
Kareem: 5.4

Yup, KAJ was one of the GOAT passers at his position; Kawhi is subpar for his position.


1988 lakers won title with Kareem

Yes, they won with KAJ putting up prime Bosh numbers in the playoffs. What did they win after he left?


Meanwhile, raptors just win regular season games but can't even win a game past the 1st round.

Damn, the historical revisionism is jumping the shark. We saw the Raptors in the ECF just four years ago...(and they may be back there this season)


If someone was carrying Kawhi that hard

Prime KAJ's teams without KAJ: 3-14, 7-13
Raptors without Kawhi: 17-5, 46-18

Who is getting "carried"? :lol


Last year in their championship year, they were 17-5 without Kawhi. You can't minimize the supporting cast with that kind of production. This of course isn't to say that the Raptors had anywhere near the talent or support for Kawhi that Kareem had in LA.

People keep comparing rosters across eras. The 2019 Raptors don't play against the 1984 Celtics; they play against the 2019 Bucks and 2019 Sixers. How do the Raptors' "cast" compare to those? Could either of those teams have the third best record in the NBA without their best player? The answer is clear: no and they wouldn't even be close to it.

Kareem played full-time and is the GOAT in durability so we don't have much to work with him for the 80's (Lakers 7-13 without him in the 70's, Bucks 3-14). The most we have with KAJ still being KAJ is 1982. The Lakers went 2-4 without him, not 17-5.


The Raptors are still good after Kawhi. They have more wins, better win percentage, and a better performing defense than Kawhi's team.

This is fatal to the Kawhi case. The whole thing is based on it being Kawhi "carrying" the team and we find out the team minus Kawhi outperforms a team that added not only Kawhi but also PG. Common sense tells you if it was Kawhi carrying them they would fall off dramatically without him--that it didn't happen exposes the premise of the Kawhi case is fiction.


Threads like this will never work out in that player's favour. Comparing Kawhi to Kareem in terms of durability and assists?

:lol

[Rico2016]

Yup, KAJ was one of the GOAT passers at his position; Kawhi is subpar for his position.



Yes, they won with KAJ putting up prime Bosh numbers in the playoffs. What did they win after he left?



Damn, the historical revisionism is jumping the shark. We saw the Raptors in the ECF just four years ago...(and they may be back there this season)



Prime KAJ's teams without KAJ: 3-14, 7-13
Raptors without Kawhi: 17-5, 46-18

Who is getting "carried"? :lol



People keep comparing rosters across eras. The 2019 Raptors don't play against the 1984 Celtics; they play against the 2019 Bucks and 2019 Sixers. How do the Raptors' "cast" compare to those? Could either of those teams have the third best record in the NBA without their best player? The answer is clear: no and they wouldn't even be close to it.

Kareem played full-time and is the GOAT in durability so we don't have much to work with him for the 80's (Lakers 7-13 without him in the 70's, Bucks 3-14). The most we have with KAJ still being KAJ is 1982. The Lakers went 2-4 without him, not 17-5.



This is almost fatal to the Kawhi case. The whole thing is based on it being Kawhi "carrying" the team and we find out the team minus Kawhi outperforms a team that added not only Kawhi but also PG. Common sense tells you if it was Kawhi carrying them they would fall off dramatically without him--that it didn't happen exposes the premise of the Kawhi case is fiction.



:lol

Wow. THAT, plus

For those unaware of the Cavs Pacers series

https://i.postimg.cc/D04Lppy9/G-O-A-T-Carry.jpg

LeBron should have lost. Biggest carry job ever.

= /thread over

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup, KAJ was one of the GOAT passers at his position; Kawhi is subpar for his position.



Yes, they won with KAJ putting up prime Bosh numbers in the playoffs. What did they win after he left?



Damn, the historical revisionism is jumping the shark. We saw the Raptors in the ECF just four years ago...(and they may be back there this season)



Prime KAJ's teams without KAJ: 3-14, 7-13
Raptors without Kawhi: 17-5, 46-18

Who is getting "carried"? :lol



People keep comparing rosters across eras. The 2019 Raptors don't play against the 1984 Celtics; they play against the 2019 Bucks and 2019 Sixers. How do the Raptors' "cast" compare to those? Could either of those teams have the third best record in the NBA without their best player? The answer is clear: no and they wouldn't even be close to it.

Kareem played full-time and is the GOAT in durability so we don't have much to work with him for the 80's (Lakers 7-13 without him in the 70's, Bucks 3-14). The most we have with KAJ still being KAJ is 1982. The Lakers went 2-4 without him, not 17-5.



This is fatal to the Kawhi case. The whole thing is based on it being Kawhi "carrying" the team and we find out the team minus Kawhi outperforms a team that added not only Kawhi but also PG. Common sense tells you if it was Kawhi carrying them they would fall off dramatically without him--that it didn't happen exposes the premise of the Kawhi case is fiction.



:lol

Bosh averaged 2.2 BPM during heat 2012/13 title runs, that is +4.2 BPM over 1988 Kareem, massive gap.

Raptors haven't won a finals game without Kawhi, like Lakers did without Kareem in 1991.

Kawhi doesn't have to be carried by alll time great passers like Kareem does. Kareem never won a title when he wasn't at least tripled in assist % or he doesn't even play the closeout game.

[warriorfan]

Wow. THAT, plus

For those unaware of the Cavs Pacers series

https://i.postimg.cc/D04Lppy9/G-O-A-T-Carry.jpg

LeBron should have lost. Biggest carry job ever.

= /thread over

What a huge win over the big two of Victor Oladipo and Bojan Bogdanovic. Very impressive.

[mr4speed]

Bosh averaged 2.2 BPM during heat 2012/13 title runs, that is +4.2 BPM over 1988 Kareem, massive gap.

Raptors haven't won a finals game without Kawhi, like Lakers did without Kareem in 1991.

Kawhi doesn't have to be carried by alll time great passers like Kareem does. Kareem never won a title when he wasn't at least tripled in assist % or he doesn't even play the closeout game.

Kareem in 1980 Finals is why LA won the other 3 games. He was voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6. Kareem was the best player in the world in 1980 = season MVP = his 6th MVP. All those "triple assister's" were greatly helped by having Kareem to score for many of their assists from the most unstoppable shot ever by any player. And the double teams he drew also had a dramatic effect on ball movement and easy shots for even more assists for his teammates. Why are you trying to belittle Kareem? For his first 10 years in the NBA he averaged 14.8 rebounds per game. At age 38 after his terrible game 1 in the 85 Finals, for the next 5 games he put up 28.4 pts/game, 10.2 reb/game, 6.0 assists/game on 61% shooting for another FMVP! This thread has been exposed as a garbage thread = give it up.

[Rico2016]

What a huge win over the big two of Victor Oladipo and Bojan Bogdanovic. Very impressive.

Find me a playoff series where someone else won at this GOAT level playoff carry

Game Score
LeBron = 30
Love, Hill, Korver, Nance Thompson = 29

5 to 1

I'll be waiting. Thanks.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem had 17 years of elite excellence; it is a joke Kawhi with 4 good years is being compared to the GOAT.


Kareem in 1980 Finals is why LA won the other 3 games. He was voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6. Kareem was the best player in the world in 1980 = season MVP = his 6th MVP. All those "triple assister's" were greatly helped by having Kareem to score for many of their assists from the most unstoppable shot ever by any player. And the double teams he drew also had a dramatic effect on ball movement and easy shots for even more assists for his teammates. Why are you trying to belittle Kareem? For his first 10 years in the NBA he averaged 14.8 rebounds per game. At age 38 after his terrible game 1 in the 85 Finals, for the next 5 games he put up 28.4 pts/game, 10.2 reb/game, 6.0 assists/game on 61% shooting for another FMVP! This thread has been exposed as a garbage thread = give it up.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kareem in 1980 Finals is why LA won the other 3 games. He was voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6. Kareem was the best player in the world in 1980 = season MVP = his 6th MVP. All those "triple assister's" were greatly helped by having Kareem to score for many of their assists from the most unstoppable shot ever by any player. And the double teams he drew also had a dramatic effect on ball movement and easy shots for even more assists for his teammates. Why are you trying to belittle Kareem? For his first 10 years in the NBA he averaged 14.8 rebounds per game. At age 38 after his terrible game 1 in the 85 Finals, for the next 5 games he put up 28.4 pts/game, 10.2 reb/game, 6.0 assists/game on 61% shooting for another FMVP! This thread has been exposed as a garbage thread = give it up.

1980 finals Kareem was 4th in total minutes. Magic averaged 21 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists 57% FG.

Game 5: Kareem has 40 points but Lakers have just a 105 offensive rating.

Game 6: Kareem doesn't play and Lakers have a 115 offensive rating their highest of the series

Magic still averaged 46.5 assist % in 1988 when Kareem was an inefficient scorer and negative offensive player. Lakers ended up winning the title as well.

Put Magic Johnson on Kawhi's team and you know how easy Kawhi would have it? Kawhi would never have to worry about the offense again, he would be fed like a baby by Magic just like Kareem was. Imagine how much Kawhi's efficiency would skyrocket when playing next to the goat point guard.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kawhi

[Rico2016]

Kareem had 17 years of elite excellence; it is a joke Kawhi with 4 good years is being compared to the GOAT.



:applause: :applause: :applause:

Kawhi has 10,000 pts :lol
Kareem has 42,000

Kawhi has 0 MVPs
Kareem has 6 MVPs

6 to...zero

He's not even CLOSE.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kareem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kawhi

Career wise, for now. When its all said and done, lets see you say that. Peak wise I still pick Kawhi.

[Rico2016]

Career wise, for now. When its all said and done, lets see you say that. Peak wise I still pick Kawhi.

Sorry, this discussion is reserved for 2x MVPs and above

*Kawhi exits the chat

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi has 10,000 pts :lol
Kareem has 42,000

Kawhi has 0 MVPs
Kareem has 6 MVPs

6 to...zero

He's not even CLOSE.

Kawhi has 2 finals MVPS. How many finals MVPS did Kareem have before he played with Magic Johnson? ..

1 title in the entire 1970s despite the ABA still being around? How cute

Kawhi has two finals MVPS in 2010s which is a much tougher era.

[Rico2016]

Kawhi has 2 finals MVPS. How many finals MVPS did Kareem have before he played with Magic Johnson? ..

1 title in the entire 1970s despite the ABA still being around? How cute

Kawhi has two finals MVPS in 2010s which is a much tougher era.

Kawhi has ZERO MVPs. The most prestigious award in basketball. The bar has been set. Good luck, Kawhi

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kawhit rests more than any other star by far and has been on stacked teams literally his entire career.


He's never sniffed a reg. season MVP (never will) and will never be considered a real player due to the amount of rest he receives

he routinely gets outshined by the likes of Durant, LeBron, and CP3 in head to head playoff meetings... ALWAYS gets outplayed by other stars..

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi has 10,000 pts
Kareem has 42,000

Kawhi has 0 MVPs
Kareem has 6 MVPs

6 to...zero

He's not even CLOSE.

Yup. It is amazing how overrated Kawhi has become because KD, Klay got hurt. Somehow that makes him better than Kareem. :oldlol:


Career wise, for now. When its all said and done, lets see you say that.

Kareem did more by 28 than Kawhi ever will do.


Peak wise I still pick Kawhi.

Which says it all...

[Phoenix]

Peak wise I still pick Kawhi.

I'm still wrapping my head around someone saying this and being dead serious about it. Kareem had one of the highest peaks ever, by extension you're saying so does Kawhi. And that's simply not the case.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm still wrapping my head around someone saying this and being dead serious about it. Kareem had one of the highest peaks ever, by extension you're saying so does Kawhi. And that's simply not the case.

Exactly. :facepalm People are jumping the shark with favorites. Kawhi>Kareem, Ewing>LeBron. Insane takes.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup. It is amazing how overrated Kawhi has become because KD, Klay got hurt. Somehow that makes him better than Kareem. :oldlol:



Kareem did more by 28 than Kawhi ever will do.



Which says it all...

Kareem didn't even make the playoffs in 1974-75 when he was 27 year old despite only 18 teams in the entire league. On top of that, his 1972 and 1973 playoff runs he averaged 45% TS.

[Roundball_Rock]

#Cherrypicking.

The missing the playoffs stuff is BS. They missed the playoffs because they went 3-14 (not 17-5) without him. That is his fault? He improved that 14 win pace to 44 wins. Kawhi could only dream of raising a team that much. The next case the Lakers, a roster gutted to acquire Kareem (whereas Kawhi goes only from stacked team to stacked team), had a top 4 record in the WC but missed the playoffs under a rule then that said only the top two teams in each division could make it.

Let's cherry pick Kawhi. We can't have free reign on KAJ but it is "scum" and "hate" to do the same exact thing to Kawhi:

Cherry Picking Kawhi

*Drafted to a 61 win team (1 seed) but failed to win until 2014.
*Wins a FMVP as a role player in 14', for the same reasons and same numbers as Iggy did the next year.
*Not an all-star until his 5th season.
*15/11 with 0.9 APG in the 13' finals. Decent numbers, except the embarrassing assist total--but KAJ would get roasted if he ever went 15/11.
*Bounced in the first round as defending champions. Kawhi outplayed by Duncan, Griffin, and Paul.
*Loses with a 67 win team in the second round. Durant crushes Kawhi in their match up. Kawhi outplayed by Durant, Westbrook, and Aldridge.
*Spurs' internal analytic (per Colin Cowherd) shows the team isn't any better with Kawhi.
*Kawhi quits on the Spurs altogether in 2018. Spurs lose in the 1st round as a healthy Kawhi sits at home.
*Kawhi traded to another 1 seed and they win due to injury luck--but their performance without Kawhi was the same as with him. Their win pace was slightly higher without him, in fact.
*Kawhi demands the Clippers add an all-NBA 1st team player to a team that already had Williams, Harrell because all he knows is stacked teams his entire career (afraid of the challenge?). The Clippers wind up with a worse record than the team that "lost" the great Kawhi and made no major additions to the roster.

This is a joke comparison when one guy has 6 MVP's and the other guy is a 4-time all-star.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

#Cherrypicking.

The missing the playoffs stuff is BS. They missed the playoffs because they went 3-14 (not 17-5) without him. That is his fault? He improved that 14 win pace to 44 wins. Kawhi could only dream of raising a team that much. The next case the Lakers, a roster gutted to acquire Kareem (whereas Kawhi goes only from stacked team to stacked team), had a top 4 record in the WC but missed the playoffs under a rule then that said only the top two teams in each division could make it.

Let's cherry pick Kawhi. We can't have free reign on KAJ but it is "scum" and "hate" to do the same exact thing to Kawhi:

Cherry Picking Kawhi

*Drafted to a 61 win team (1 seed) but failed to win until 2014.
*Wins a FMVP as a role player in 14', for the same reasons and same numbers as Iggy did the next year.
*Not an all-star until his 5th season.
*15/11 with 0.9 APG in the 13' finals. Decent numbers, except the embarrassing assist total--but KAJ would get roasted if he ever went 15/11.
*Bounced in the first round as defending champions. Kawhi outplayed by Duncan, Griffin, and Paul.
*Loses with a 67 win team in the second round. Durant crushes Kawhi in their match up. Kawhi outplayed by Durant, Westbrook, and Aldridge.
*Spurs' internal analytic (per Colin Cowherd) shows the team isn't any better with Kawhi.
*Kawhi quits on the Spurs altogether in 2018. Spurs lose in the 1st round as a healthy Kawhi sits at home.
*Kawhi traded to another 1 seed and they win due to injury luck--but their performance without Kawhi was the same as with him. Their win pace was slightly higher without him, in fact.
*Kawhi demands the Clippers add an all-NBA 1st team player to a team that already had Williams, Harrell because all he knows is stacked teams his entire career (afraid of the challenge?). The Clippers wind up with a worse record than the team that "lost" the great Kawhi and made no major additions to the roster.

This is a joke comparison when one guy has 6 MVP's and the other guy is a 4-time all-star.

Went from being champions with Oscar to not even making the playoffs without him. How do you miss the playoffs with 18 total teams in the league? No excuse for that. Also his 45% TS playoff runs in the 1970s.

You criticize kawhi for things in 2011-2013 when he's 20 and 21 years old. Yet, Kareem is still playing college basketball at 20 and 21 years old? Automatic garbage

2014 Kawhi leads spurs in VORP for playoff run and GmSc for finals. When they didn't pass the ball to Kawhi in 2013, they lost in 7 games. When they passed the ball to Kawhi in 2014, they won in 5 by the biggest margain in finals history. Kawhi turned a past their prime choking spurs team into dominating champions.

2015 kawhi 2nd best player is 38 year old Tim Duncan. 3rd best player Tony Parker who had 10 points 35% TS. Spurs still lose by just 1 shot despite no home court advantage

2016 leads a team to 67 wins with Lamarcus Aldridge as 2nd best player. Aldridge i have already exposed as a similar tier player as Kevin Love. Lets see LeBron win vs Durant/Westbrook when all he has is Kevin Love. Kawhi still led playoffs in BPM.

[Roundball_Rock]

We can cherry pick any player--that was the point of my last post. Let's have a real discussion. Kareem is a 6x MVP; Kawhi a 4x all-star. These aren't comparable players. This like comparing Harden to Jordan.

Through Age 28

MVP's: Kareem 4, Kawhi 0
All-NBA: Kareem 6, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: Kareem 5, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP: Kareem 7, Kawhi 2
All-star: Kareem 7, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Kareem 1
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Kareem 0

This would be even more lopsided but Kareem started at age 22, Kawhi at age 20.

A more legitimate comparison would comparing 80's Kareem to Kawhi to date.

1980's Kareem versus Kawhi

MVP's: Kareem 1, Kawhi 0
All-NBA: Kareem 6, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: Kareem 4, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP: Kareem 5, Kawhi 2
All-star: Kareem 10, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Kareem 1*

Kareem at ages 32-42>Kawhi in his 20's. Different tiers of players.

Kawhi should catch KD, Curry before we start comparing him to GOAT candidates.

*Robbed by CBS in 1980.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We can cherry pick any player--that was the point of my last post. Let's have a real discussion. Kareem is a 6x MVP; Kawhi a 4x all-star. These aren't comparable players. This like comparing Harden to Jordan.

Through Age 28

MVP's: Kareem 4, Kawhi 0
All-NBA: Kareem 6, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: Kareem 5, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP: Kareem 7, Kawhi 2
All-star: Kareem 7, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Kareem 1
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Kareem 0

This would be even more lopsided but Kareem started at age 22, Kawhi at age 20.

A more legitimate comparison would comparing 80's Kareem to Kawhi to date.

1980's Kareem versus Kawhi

MVP's: Kareem 1, Kawhi 0
All-NBA: Kareem 6, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: Kareem 4, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP: Kareem 5, Kawhi 2
All-star: Kareem 10, Kawhi 4
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Kareem 1*

Kareem at ages 32-42>Kawhi in his 20's. Different tiers of players.

Kawhi should catch KD, Curry before we start comparing him to GOAT candidates.

*Robbed by CBS in 1980.

You can't compare careers because kawhi is in the middle of his prime. I notice Kareem never had an all time great playoff run after 1980. So we can compare their two best playoff runs.

Kawhi 2017 > Kareem 1980
Kawhi 2019 > Kareem 1971

Kawhi 2019 vs Kareem 1971 - Kawhi is +7 on TS despite playing 362 minutes and not having a passer like Oscar on his team? That's very fishy if you're arguing for Kareem. Why is Kareem's TS -7 vs Kawhi when its Kawhi playing 362 more minutes and not playing with an all time great like Oscar who makes it easy on him.

Kawhi 2017 vs Kareem 1980 - Kawhi has .1 more offensive win shares despite playing 189 less minutes. Kawhi also matched Kareem's VORP at 1.7 despite the minute gap.

The rest of the 1970s, Kareem ends the season by embarrassing himself. The rest of the 1980s, Kareem never puts up all time great numbers for an entire playoff run.

[Rico2016]

Kareem has six MVPs. Kawhi has zero.

You can open your mouth when Kawhi has HALF of Kareem's MVPs. If Kawhi gets 3 then we will listen to you. Shit, if Kawhi gets even one MVP we will entertain your idiocy, otherwise.

Shhhh

[Roundball_Rock]

The GOAT embarrassed himself by doing what Kawhi could only dream of doing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2000s: Shaq: 3 Finals MVPS
2010s: Kawhi 2 finals MVPS
1990s: Jordan 6 finals MVPS
2010: LeBron 3 finals MVPS
1970s: Kareem 1 finals MVP

Kareem in his 20s couldn't dominate like the other legends. Lucky he went crying to Magic to help him or Kareem would be the big man version of Jerry West (1 ring).

[Axe]

2000s: Shaq: 3 Finals MVPS
2010s: Kawhi 2 finals MVPS
1990s: Jordan 6 finals MVPS
2010: LeBron 3 finals MVPS
1970s: Kareem 1 finals MVP

Kareem in his 20s couldn't dominate like the other legends. Lucky he went crying to Magic to help him or Kareem would be the big man version of Jerry West (1 ring).
Don't make his counterpart call ya a delusional kawhi stan, i dare you...

The holier-than-thou he gets...

[mr4speed]

2000s: Shaq: 3 Finals MVPS
2010s: Kawhi 2 finals MVPS
1990s: Jordan 6 finals MVPS
2010: LeBron 3 finals MVPS
1970s: Kareem 1 finals MVP

Kareem in his 20s couldn't dominate like the other legends. Lucky he went crying to Magic to help him or Kareem would be the big man version of Jerry West (1 ring).
"Kareem went crying to Magic" = please educate yourself. When the coin flip came up for LA, Magic jumped at the chance to play with Kareem. Had the coin come up Bulls, Magic was going back to MSU. I recommend you read Magic's book "My Life" - from chapter 9 Big Fella:"Until I played on Kareem's team, I didn't appreciate just how great a player he really was...He could dominate a game almost at will...the rest of us could stand back and watch the show...what gets overlooked is Kareem made it easier for me and all the Lakers...our opponents had to double team him and this left one of us open for the outside shot...Largely because of Kareem, I had the joy of playing on one of the great winning teams in the history of basketball...Kareem had just completed his 17th season, Riley told me"we need you to start scoring more". For seven years I had been the set up man" -please get over this attempt to belittle Kareem.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

"Kareem went crying to Magic" = please educate yourself. When the coin flip came up for LA, Magic jumped at the chance to play with Kareem. Had the coin come up Bulls, Magic was going back to MSU. I recommend you read Magic's book "My Life" - from chapter 9 Big Fella:"Until I played on Kareem's team, I didn't appreciate just how great a player he really was...He could dominate a game almost at will...the rest of us could stand back and watch the show...what gets overlooked is Kareem made it easier for me and all the Lakers...our opponents had to double team him and this left one of us open for the outside shot...Largely because of Kareem, I had the joy of playing on one of the great winning teams in the history of basketball...Kareem had just completed his 17th season, Riley told me"we need you to start scoring more". For seven years I had been the set up man" -please get over this attempt to belittle Kareem.

Kareem is the one who demanded a trade, not Magic Johnson. Magic was the best player 1982 1985 1987 1988. Kareem has 1980 but injured himself in closeout game, which gives slight edge to Magic Johnson.

Kareem is still a top 10 GOAT but I dont think he's better then Kawhi when they are both at their best. I never took a personal shot at Kareem, I'm talking about strictly basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, Kareem did not dominate. 5 MVP's in the 70's alone; Jordan/Kawhi combined have 5 in their entire careers. This is "talking strictly basketball"?

Kareem took on the challenge of going to a bad team. He didn't demand a 1st team all-NBA player and MVP candidate to join him in LA, like Kawhi. Kawhi has never shown he can raise the floor of a bad team. The Raptors without him have done better than with him over the past two seasons. Moreover, KAJ was drafted to a 27 win team (same as MJ) and had them at 56 wins and the WCF as a rookie and was the best player in the league from day one. Kawhi joined a 61 win team and didn't become an all-star until his 5th season. Yet because KD and Klay got hurt Kawhi>Kareem?

Kareem is guilty of not having the luck Kawhi has had in his prime (one guy lost chips due to injuries; the other was gifted one). Horry>Kawhi>Kareem then, right? :oldlol:


"Kareem went crying to Magic" = please educate yourself. When the coin flip came up for LA, Magic jumped at the chance to play with Kareem. Had the coin come up Bulls, Magic was going back to MSU. I recommend you read Magic's book "My Life" - from chapter 9 Big Fella:"Until I played on Kareem's team, I didn't appreciate just how great a player he really was...He could dominate a game almost at will...the rest of us could stand back and watch the show...what gets overlooked is Kareem made it easier for me and all the Lakers...our opponents had to double team him and this left one of us open for the outside shot...Largely because of Kareem, I had the joy of playing on one of the great winning teams in the history of basketball...Kareem had just completed his 17th season, Riley told me"we need you to start scoring more". For seven years I had been the set up man" -please get over t:applause:his attempt to belittle Kareem.

:applause:

The revisionist history is sad. Magic wasn't even all-NBA until 1982 but supposedly he was "the man" on those teams 40 years later.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yes, Kareem did not dominate. 5 MVP's in the 70's alone; Jordan/Kawhi combined have 5 in their entire careers. This is "talking strictly basketball"?

Kareem took on the challenge of going to a bad team. He didn't demand a 1st team all-NBA player and MVP candidate to join him in LA, like Kawhi. Kawhi has never shown he can raise the floor of a bad team. The Raptors without him have done better than with him over the past two seasons. Moreover, KAJ was drafted to a 27 win team (same as MJ) and had them at 56 wins and the WCF as a rookie and was the best player in the league from day one. Kawhi joined a 61 win team and didn't become an all-star until his 5th season. Yet because KD and Klay got hurt Kawhi>Kareem?

Kareem is guilty of not having the luck Kawhi has had in his prime (one guy lost chips due to injuries; the other was gifted one). Horry>Kawhi>Kareem then, right? :oldlol:



:applause:

The revisionist history is sad. Magic wasn't even all-NBA until 1982 but supposedly he was "the man" on those teams 40 years later.

In 1982, Magic led regular season in VORP and led all playoffs in BPM. Only players having all time great years do that. Lead VORP regular season and BPM playoffs? Go look at the list of players who do that, you will see a lot of Jordan/LeBron on that list.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has Kyle Lowry lol. The guy with 17% usage and 25% from three in the 2nd round.

[Roundball_Rock]

46-18.

[RRR3]

In 1982, Magic led regular season in VORP and led all playoffs in BPM. Only players having all time great years do that. Lead VORP regular season and BPM playoffs? Go look at the list of players who do that, you will see a lot of Jordan/LeBron on that list.

Meanwhile, Kawhi has Kyle Lowry lol. The guy with 17% usage and 25% from three in the 2nd round.
Kyle Lowry is going to make the HOF so not sure why you’re laughing at him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kyle Lowry is going to make the HOF so not sure why you’re laughing at him.

I'm laughing at him compared to Magic. I think even Lowry himself would laugh at being compared to Magic freaking Johnson.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

46-18.

1991 Lakers 13 playoff wins

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm laughing at him compared to Magic. I think even Lowry himself would laugh at being compared to Magic freaking Johnson.

Saying the Raptors are a stacked team doesn't mean saying Lowry=Magic. 46-18 speaks for itself.


1991 Lakers

Yeah, after they added Divac and made other changes since KAJ's last chip in 88'. These Raptors are the same team Kawhi allegedly carried...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Saying the Raptors are a stacked team doesn't mean saying Lowry=Magic. 46-18 speaks for itself.



Yeah, after they added Divac and made other changes since KAJ's last chip in 88'. These Raptors are the same team Kawhi allegedly carried...

Kareem is 3 wins better then Vlade Divac, does he want a cookie for that?

[Roundball_Rock]

Peak Kawhi (not 40+ year old Kawhi) is worth 0 wins over OG Anunoby? :confusedshrug:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Peak Kawhi (not 40+ year old Kawhi) is worth 0 wins over OG Anunoby? :confusedshrug:


The raptors offense dropped from 5th to 14th without Kawhi.

Defense stayed good because Gasol is playing like twice as much minutes (he was a late season trade in 2019). Raptors also added OG Anunoby who is an elite defender. They win by defense of OG/Gasol. 14th ranked offense is nothing to brag about. Siakam is also going to get exposed as a #1 in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

They had the #2 offense before Kawhi, #5 with him yet you are crediting the offense entirely to Kawhi? Their defense was 5th before Kawhi, 5th with him, 2nd this year.

The bottom line is they won 58 games with him last year (56 win pace in the games Kawhi showed up) and were on pace to win 59 this year with Anunoby replacing Kawhi, the "GOAT."

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They had the #2 offense before Kawhi, #5 with him yet you are crediting the offense entirely to Kawhi? Their defense was 5th before Kawhi, 5th with him, 2nd this year.

The bottom line is they won 58 games with him last year (56 win pace in the games Kawhi showed up) and were on pace to win 59 this year with Anunoby replacing Kawhi, the "GOAT."

2018 raptors had a different coach and different offense. I'm comparing 2019 raptors and 2020 raptors with the same coach.
5th offense with Kawhi in 2019 and 14th offense without him in 2020

What about Lakers 1990 when 21 year old Divac replaced Kareem? #1 offense, 63 wins and Divac is a -1.0 OBPM basically doing nothing offensively.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi is a GOAT-level player according to you. Why are we comparing him to a 42 year old?


I'm comparing 2019 raptors and 2020 raptors with the same coach.
5th offense with Kawhi in 2019 and 14th offense without him in 2020

Fair enough. One caveat: we would have to parse the offense's performance in games Kawhi played versus the 22 games he missed.

The issue is their overall results are similar. Slightly better win pace. SRS of 5.88 this year (4th in the NBA), 5.49 last year (3rd). These are not astronomical changes that you would expect losing a player that is GOAT-level with no major addition to the roster to offset his loss. What is the explanation? Compare that to OKC without KD as a reference point or Miami minus LeBron.

[RRR3]

The Raptors were 17-5 without Kawhi last year. Trash without him doe.

You can’t make this shit up.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Raptors were 17-5 without Kawhi last year. Trash without him doe.

You can’t make this shit up.

17-5, 46-18. That is 63-23 without him over two seasons without any major addition to replace him when he was out. All Kawhi, doe!

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is a GOAT-level player according to you. Why are we comparing him to a 42 year old?



Fair enough. One caveat: we would have to parse the offense's performance in games Kawhi played versus the 22 games he missed.

The issue is their overall results are similar. Slightly better win pace. SRS of 5.88 this year (4th in the NBA), 5.49 last year (3rd). These are not astronomical changes that you would expect losing a player that is GOAT-level with no major addition to the roster to offset his loss. What is the explanation? Compare that to OKC without KD as a reference point or Miami minus LeBron.

How do you get replaced by a 21 year old Vlade Divac and still have #1 offense? Divac was the age of a senior in college and had a negative OBPM and your team is still #1 offense and 63 wins. That's very fishy for 1980s Kareem. Yes, Magic is that damn good. No, Kawhi has never sniffed playing with a player as good as Magic.

[insidious301]

How do you get replaced by a 21 year old Vlade Divac and still have #1 offense? Divac was the age of a senior in college and had a negative OBPM and your team is still #1 offense and 63 wins. That's very fishy for 1980s Kareem. Yes, Magic is that damn good.

You have absurd expectations for a 41-yo Jabbar.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The Raptors were 17-5 without Kawhi last year. Trash without him doe.

You can’t make this shit up.

Its one thing to win 17 games against a bunch of bad teams. Its a whole another thing to have #1 offense and 63 wins for a full season like Magic did without Kareem in 1990.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You have absurd expectations for a 41-yo Jabbar.

My point is Magic doesn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses or make it to the finals.

Just do your hook shot and let Magic do all the thinking and mastering of the offense, that's what it sounds like.

[Roundball_Rock]

Its one thing to win 17 games against a bunch of bad teams. Its a whole another thing to have #1 offense and 63 wins for a full season like Magic did without Kareem in 1990.

Why are we benchmarking peak Kawhi to 41-42 year old KAJ? The argument here seems to be both the Raptors and Lakers were good after each left. That is a bad look for Kawhi given the context...

It wasn't 17 games against bad teams. We haven't seen the data for the games he actually missed but it isn't that relevant. They went 46-18 without him. The team that added Kawhi and PG went 44-20 (two superstars added to a 48 win team) as a comparison. Yet Kawhi carried the 46-18 team?


My point is Magic doesn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses or make it to the finals.

No, but he needed KAJ to actually win...

[insidious301]

My point is Magic doesn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses or make it to the finals.

Just do your hook shot and let Magic do all the thinking and mastering of the offense, that's what it sounds like.

This isn't a good argument if you're pro championships. Magic never won without Kareem.

[Roundball_Rock]

This isn't a good argument if you're pro championships. Magic never won without Kareem.

Yup, no Kareem, no chips. Plus there was a decline as KAJ aged. Their real O Rating was +6.1 in 86' with KAJ still elite, +7.3 in 87' with KAJ still a star (18 PPG in the RS, 19 in the PO, 22 in the finals), +5.1 in 88' with further reduced KAJ who nonetheless was still putting up prime Bosh numbers.

6.0 KAJ's final year, then 5.9 and then 4.2. This was despite Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Green all being in their peak years (all were 27-29), Magic still being a MVP candidate, and having a young Divac as a replacement for Kareem.

Toronto's real O rating went from +5.2 in 18' to +2.7 with Kawhi and +1.2 without him. So a decrease of 1.5 but that's comparable (actually slightly less) than the decrease from KAJ's final year to 91'. This is with Toronto making no major addition to mitigate losing Kawhi (no Divac).

If the change in offensive efficiency is the metric, that isn't a good look for Kawhi. Besides, his calling card is defense and the Raptor's defense improved from 3.3 to 5.2 in real D rating without him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why are we benchmarking peak Kawhi to 41-42 year old KAJ? The argument here seems to be both the Raptors and Lakers were good after each left. That is a bad look for Kawhi given the context...

It wasn't 17 games against bad teams. We haven't seen the data for the games he actually missed but it isn't that relevant. They went 46-18 without him. The team that added Kawhi and PG went 44-20 (two superstars added to a 48 win team) as a comparison. Yet Kawhi carried the 46-18 team?



No, but he needed KAJ to actually win...

Magic didn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses, 63 win teams, and make it to the finals. When raptors do that, you can let me know. That's my point, has nothing to do with old Kareem besides he was carried to his final two rings. Lakers replaced Kareem with Divac and were still #1 offense! All Kareem had to do was be better then Vlade Divac to win a title. Magic took Divac to 3 wins away from a title. Magic also eliminated Drexler's blazers when Kareem was at his retirement home. Sorry but Lakers have way more success without Kareem then Raptors have proven without Kawhi. Magic is a top 5 GOAT and Lowry is like top 100 on a good day, I don't know what you want me to tell you.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This isn't a good argument if you're pro championships. Magic never won without Kareem.

What did 2018 raptors win without Kawhi? A 1st round series? Let me know when Lowry takes his team to the finals like Magic did in 1991.

2018 raptors - 4 playoff wins
1991 Lakers - 13 playoff wins

Massive gap.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup, no Kareem, no chips. Plus there was a decline as KAJ aged. Their real O Rating was +6.1 in 86' with KAJ still elite, +7.3 in 87' with KAJ still a star (18 PPG in the RS, 19 in the PO, 22 in the finals), +5.1 in 88' with further reduced KAJ who nonetheless was still putting up prime Bosh numbers.

6.0 KAJ's final year, then 5.9 and then 4.2. This was despite Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Green all being in their peak years (all were 27-29), Magic still being a MVP candidate, and having a young Divac as a replacement for Kareem.

Toronto's real O rating went from +5.2 in 18' to +2.7 with Kawhi and +1.2 without him. So a decrease of 1.5 but that's comparable (actually slightly less) than the decrease from KAJ's final year to 91'. This is with Toronto making no major addition to mitigate losing Kawhi (no Divac).

If the change in offensive efficiency is the metric, that isn't a good look for Kawhi. Besides, his calling card is defense and the Raptor's defense improved from 3.3 to 5.2 in real D rating without him.

They added Gasol for significantly more minutes and OG, so their defense improved. Kawhi in 2019 reg season was taking it easy on defense because he just returned from a year off of basketball. They still dropped to 14th ranked offense with Siakam as #1 scoring option in 2020, which is AVERAGE. What about Lakers in 1990 without Kareem? They were ranked #1 offense.

Kawhi has also carried clippers to a top 5 ranked defense despite god awful defenders Lou Williams and Shamet being top 5 in total minutes played.

[Axe]

What did 2018 raptors win without Kawhi? A 1st round series? Let me know when Lowry takes his team to the finals like Magic did in 1991.

2018 raptors - 4 playoff wins
1991 Lakers - 13 playoff wins

Massive gap.
2016 raptors were better with demar and casey at least. They went to the ecf for the first time in team history but as usual, they couldn't get past over the cavs.

[Roundball_Rock]

What did 2018 raptors win without Kawhi?

Fair point. A lot of this will depend on how they do after him. If they are major players in the playoffs this year and beyond the perception will be different. If they flame out, then your side's case will be stronger.

Re Kareem, he won without Magic--Magic never won without Kareem.

Team impact, durability, and passing are all poor points to use for Kawhi against Kareem of all people.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Kareem-shooting-WOWY-1975.png

So he was worth 7.4 points net on offense, 5.8 points net on defense. That is 13.2 points of total impact...

[RRR3]

Are we really entertaining someone who is trying to argue that Kawhi Leonard is better than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Fair point. A lot of this will depend on how they do after him. If they are major players in the playoffs this year and beyond the perception will be different. If they flame out, then your side's case will be stronger.

Re Kareem, he won without Magic--Magic never won without Kareem.

Team impact, durability, and passing are all poor points to use for Kawhi against Kareem of all people.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Kareem-shooting-WOWY-1975.png

So he was worth 7.4 points net on offense, 5.8 points net on defense. That is 13.2 points of total impact...

Yes but we already know for fact that Magic/Worthy were major players in playoffs without Kareem (1 win 1991 finals). Anybody in their right mind know Raptors will not go that far. Bucks, 76ers, Celtics are all eliminations for raptors if they face this year. Siakam is going to look like a fool as #1 option against elite teams.

[Roundball_Rock]

Are we really entertaining someone who is trying to argue that Kawhi Leonard is better than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

Also said Manu was the best player in 05'.

Raptors' playoff performance is TBD--same with Kawhi without the Raptors...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also said Manu was the best player in 05'.

Raptors' playoff performance is TBD--same with Kawhi without the Raptors...

Kawhi without raptors led playoffs in BPM both 2016 and 2017, he led a title team in VORP in 2014.

[mr4speed]

Magic didn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses, 63 win teams, and make it to the finals. When raptors do that, you can let me know. That's my point, has nothing to do with old Kareem besides he was carried to his final two rings. Lakers replaced Kareem with Divac and were still #1 offense! All Kareem had to do was be better then Vlade Divac to win a title. Magic took Divac to 3 wins away from a title. Magic also eliminated Drexler's blazers when Kareem was at his retirement home. Sorry but Lakers have way more success without Kareem then Raptors have proven without Kawhi. Magic is a top 5 GOAT and Lowry is like top 100 on a good day, I don't know what you want me to tell you.

This is a bit off topic for this thread, but I have to ask how you would have Magic as a top 5 goat and I think you have mentioned Kareem on your list as a top 10 goat? I will respect your opinion but for me just looking at the defensive side of the game - and that is 50% of the game - Kareem was so much better. If my memory is correct, Kareem was selected to 11 all defensive teams and led the league in blocked shots 4 times? Magic was never selected to an all defensive team for his entire career and was such a poor defender as a rookie, he needed special coaching, as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. For me Magic's defensive weaknesses cast him out of the top 5 IMO.

[Roundball_Rock]

That is with blocks not even counting for 4 years of KAJ's prime. He probably led the league even more often but the stat wasn't counted.

[mr4speed]

That is with blocks not even counting for 4 years of KAJ's prime. He probably led the league even more often but the stat wasn't counted.

Thanks for the info. I like reading your posts = well researched and well done!

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This is a bit off topic for this thread, but I have to ask how you would have Magic as a top 5 goat and I think you have mentioned Kareem on your list as a top 10 goat? I will respect your opinion but for me just looking at the defensive side of the game - and that is 50% of the game - Kareem was so much better. If my memory is correct, Kareem was selected to 11 all defensive teams and led the league in blocked shots 4 times? Magic was never selected to an all defensive team for his entire career and was such a poor defender as a rookie, he needed special coaching, as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. For me Magic's defensive weaknesses cast him out of the top 5 IMO.


Magic is the clear cut goat at point guard which makes him top 5 by position ever. While I have Shaq as clearly above Kareem. Magic and Kareem both are probably in top 10 overall. Magic won a ring in 1988 with a much worse co star then Kareem ever had when he won a ring.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic is the clear cut goat at point guard which makes him top 5 by position ever. While I have Shaq as clearly above Kareem both are probably in top 10 overall. Magic won a ring in 1988 with a much worse co star then Kareem ever had when he won a ring.

If that were the case, why do you insist on comparing Kareem to Kawhi statistically?

Magic from jump was a superstar. And in the playoffs, basically averaged a triple-double with HIGH usage.

I've already posed this question to you once. And explained why it was a faulty comparison to begin with. Any thoughts yet?

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks for the info. I like reading your posts = well researched and well done!

:cheers:

HBK, you can't just look at it as a two man team. The 1988 Lakers had prime Worthy, Kareem putting up prime playoff Bosh numbers, Scott, Cooper, etc. The measurements of "help" have jumped the shark. Magic, Kawhi didn't have help? These guys spent their entire careers on stacked teams. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the record on the Lakers' offense with Magic removed:


In 1979, LA was anchored by Abdul-Jabbar, an offensive juggernaut at the time. The Lakers were coming off of three consecutive 50-win pace seasons (when healthy), powered by good team offense. Suffice it to say, Magic joined a strong offensive club, especially since rookie coach Paul Westhead was more attack-oriented than predecessor Jerry West. Magic’s role as a rookie was tertiary and, as such, his impact doesn’t jump off the page. LA’s offense did improve to best in the league with Magic, Jim Chones and Michael Cooper on board, but the shift was only a 2-point improvement from the ’79 team. Good, but not great.

In 1981, Magic missed about the half the year with an injury, giving us insight into his early, swiss-army knife value. Without him, LA played at a 47-win pace (2.1 SRS) and with him a 54-win pace (4.7 SRS). Given the large samples, I view this as fairly reflective of his importance to that team — he gave them a solid boost, but wasn’t even LA’s primary point guard yet (the venerable Norm Nixon was). We can use game logs for a more granular view of the team’s changes with and without Magic that year:

The Lakers were only marginally better on offense and defense without Johnson. (The negative defensive change is good.) Consistent with historical results, the best isolation player — the player least dependent on others for his offense, Jabbar — didn’t need Magic at all. (Kareem’s numbers were actually better without Johnson.) Jamaal Wilkes, another skilled scorer, didn’t miss him either.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/81-Lakers-without-Magic.png


After acquiring Bob McAdoo and installing Pat Riley as the headman, the ’82 and ’83 Lakers played at an identical 59-win pace (6.4 SRS) when healthy. With Nixon gone in ’84, Magic was (finally) handed the keys to the Showtime car, and was nice enough to miss a chunk of time that year that we can analyze too:

The Lakers actually shot more efficiently without Johnson. This is a small sample, so it shouldn’t be viewed as definitive, but look at what happened to James Worthy. He increased his scoring and efficiency over those 15 games without Magic, which reflects his considerable skill as a scorer. Like Kareem in ’81, Worthy didn’t need Magic for his offense and was capable of ramping up if given more touches. Cooper, the de facto backup point guard, spiked his assists by 50 percent while pinch-hitting for Magic, averaging 9.3 per 36 minutes. (Magic himself averaged 12.3 per 36 that year.)

[Roundball_Rock]

In 1986, he missed nine games — a small sample for highly variable metrics like scoring efficiency or point differential, but large enough to glean something about a more stable metric, assists. As in ’84, Cooper upped his dimes without Magic, from 6.8 to 10.8 per 36, only about 2 off of Johnson’s own season average. Cooper was a very good passer, and could set up players in the half court (or even on the break) well enough to support their scoring skill, but there’s little to suggest that he was a hidden game-changer on offense.

Worthy’s efficiency remained the same in those nine games without Magic in ’86, although his assists increased by 30 percent while his scoring volume dropped a touch, implying that he swapped some isolation for playmaking. This pattern repeated itself in 1988, when Magic missed 10 games and Cooper missed seven, leaving LA with replacement parts at point guard (Milt Wagner or Wes Matthews). This time, Worthy upped his scoring (nearly 2 points to 21.3 per game), his efficiency (from 56.7 percent to 59.2 percent true shooting) and his assists (from 3.7 to 4.8 per game). Byron Scott, yet another talented Laker, improved his scoring (up 3 points to 24.4 per game) and increased his assists as well.

These results — LA’s offense was +1.8 in those 19 games, down from +5.9 with Magic and Cooper — imply that Johnson played with a strong offensive cast. When Magic wasn’t there, his ball-dominance was redistributed among threats like Kareem and Worthy — themselves a formidable duo — who could either create their own offense or create for others.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/84-Lakers-without-Magic-1.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Laker-healthy-teams-79-to-92.png

https://www.backpicks.com/2018/01/15/backpicks-goat-10-magic-johnson/

Reach your own conclusions but this doesn't scream "it was all Magic" to me.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If that were the case, why do you insist on comparing Kareem to Kawhi statistically?

Magic from jump was a superstar. And in the playoffs, basically averaged a triple-double with HIGH usage.

I've already posed this question to you once. And explained why it was a faulty comparison to begin with. Any thoughts yet?

Because Kareem gets taken over Magic by most people. They are both top 10 all time, I just think Magic deserves more credit for the Lakers 5 rings.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Here is the record on the Lakers' offense with Magic removed:



https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/81-Lakers-without-Magic.png

I know big game James Worthy can still score in regular season without Magic. Lakers 1982, 1985, 87, 88 rings they still had a major dependant on Magic in the playoffs.

Like I said 1982 magic was leader in BPM/VORP. By 1985, Magic was already playing at point guard GOAT level.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because Kareem gets taken over Magic by most people. They are both top 10 all time, I just think Magic deserves more credit for the Lakers 5 rings.

What's that gotta do with Kawhi though?

I agree that Magic should get more credit for those rings. Keeping that in mind, I also think a statistical comparison with Kawhi and "'80 Kareem" is irrational. Not the comparison itself. But the fact you call Kareem overrated...because Kawhi had a higher "VORP".

Kawhi didn't have to give up numbers for another Top 5 great. Kareem did though.

[Roundball_Rock]

I know big game James Worthy can still score in regular season without Magic. Lakers 1982, 1985, 87, 88 rings they still had a major dependant on Magic in the playoffs.

Like I said 1982 magic was leader in BPM/VORP. By 1985, Magic was already playing at point guard GOAT level.

He is a top 10 ATG. Of course he had impact. The question is to what extent. That's why I posted that info--people can look at it, look at everything else they know and reach their own conclusion.

Magic did not get a MVP vote in 1980 while Kareem won the award with 147 votes to 31.5 for second place Dr. J. In 1981 Magic was third among Lakers in MVP voting (granted, he missed half the season) while KAJ was 3rd in the entire NBA. In 1982 Magic had his first all-NBA season (hard to be a "superstar" when you aren't all-NBA) and surpassed KAJ in MVP, but both were non-factors in the vote that season.

It is true Magic finished ahead of KAJ in MVP from 1982-1986 but other than 1983 they were consistently close.

1980: KAJ 1st; Magic N/A (0 votes)
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th (Wilkes 10th)
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

If this isn't "1a and 1b" then nothing is. :lol This is a lot closer than Shaq/Kobe, the duo most often referred to as "1a/1b".

One caveat to these results: Magic and Bird were the faces & saviors of the league; KAJ was not. How much extra votes did the ultimate narrative (outside of MJ) net Magic?


By 1985, Magic was already playing at point guard GOAT level.

While KAJ was 37-39 in 1985 and 1986. Yet KAJ was right behind him prime Magic in MVP. That speaks volumes about how great KAJ was--prime Magic would be blowing away any other ATG at those ages away in MVP but couldn't shake off KAJ. :bowdown:

[mr4speed]

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/84-Lakers-without-Magic-1.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Laker-healthy-teams-79-to-92.png

https://www.backpicks.com/2018/01/15/backpicks-goat-10-magic-johnson/

Reach your own conclusions but this doesn't scream "it was all Magic" to me.

Nice work and good post. This is a reminder that teams win championships and as long as this game is 5 on 5 there are going to be differences in opinions, given the dynamics of how teams play. I still look at LA running their offense through Kareem and him being the #1 choice at the end of the game for the last shot for so many years, I cannot put Magic ahead of Kareem, especially given Kareem's work in the NBA prior to Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah it is weird how a team sport is viewed as an individual sport by so many fans--and it seems to get worse as time elapses. It is odd because we saw the greatest of players not have team success when they had bad teams--yet teams don't matter?


I still look at LA running their offense through Kareem and him being the #1 choice at the end of the game for the last shot for so many years, I cannot put Magic ahead of Kareem, especially given Kareem's work in the NBA prior to Magic.

Yup. He was the #1 option until the 87' season. That is a fact. It is funny how people credit Magic when this isn't a disputable fact.

Magic behind ahead of Kareem all-time, which you see fairly often, makes zero sense. Old KAJ was finishing right behind prime Magic in MVP year after year--yet Magic is supposedly better? It is obvious what would have happened if both were in their primes together (they never overlapped--KAJ's last prime year was 80' and Magic's first all-NBA year 82'). Add to that the fact that KAJ dominated for twice as long as Magic and has double the MVP's. It isn't really close.

The other funny thing is when both were playing and in their primes, the consensus was that Bird was better. Yet somehow Magic is 4-5 spots ahead of Bird today on many lists.

[mr4speed]

Yeah it is weird how a team sport is viewed as an individual sport by so many fans--and it seems to get worse as time elapses. It is odd because we saw the greatest of players not have team success when they had bad teams--yet teams don't matter?



Yup. He was the #1 option until the 87' season. That is a fact. It is funny how people credit Magic when this isn't a disputable fact.

Magic behind ahead of Kareem all-time, which you see fairly often, makes zero sense. Old KAJ was finishing right behind prime Magic in MVP year after year--yet Magic is supposedly better? It is obvious what would have happened if both were in their primes together (they never overlapped--KAJ's last prime year was 80' and Magic's first all-NBA year 82'). Add to that the fact that KAJ dominated for twice as long as Magic and has double the MVP's. It isn't really close.

The other funny thing is when both were playing and in their primes, the consensus was that Bird was better. Yet somehow Magic is 4-5 spots ahead of Bird today on many lists.

You and I agree on this. I sometimes think popularity gets in the way of logic and hey, we are all human. And how many fans saw Kareem during his entire career? The 70's were kind of an unpopular time period. I also agree about the Bird -Magic ranking and that could be another thread in and of itself!

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points. The other thing is even the people who still have KAJ #2 or #3 all-time don't realize how great KAJ was in the 80's. They seem to think he was old and a minor contributor. The reality is he was old but a major contributor for most of the decade.

I did a thread on this weeks ago but if we only looked at KAJ's 80's resume, 80's KAJ would still be top 30-35 all-time. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479793-How-Great-Was-1980-s-Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar

Accolades: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA (4 first, 2 second), 5 top five MVP finishes, 3 all-D (two first), FMVP (robbed in 80’), 10 all-star selections.
Stats: 21/8/3 with 2 blocks in both the season and the playoffs.
Team results: 5 rings, 8 finals, 9 WCF.

For some perspective, compare his accomplishments in the worst half of his career with the career total accomplishments of other players.

Players with 6 all-NBA selections: Curry, Kidd, Harden, Elvin Hayes, Frazier, Mikan, Carmelo
Players with 4 all-NBA first teams: Dirk, Havlicek, Robinson, Garnett, Moses, Chris Paul, Frazier, Sharman, Davies, Zaslofsky
Players with 10 all-star selections: Allen, Carmelo, Arizin, Drexler, Durant, Greer, Kidd, C. Paul, Pierce, Robinson, Stockton
Players with 1 MVP: Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Dirk, Garnett, Iverson, Barkley, Robinson, Dr. J, Walton, Oscar, Reed, Cousy. This is an incomplete list but covers most of them.

16,246 points over the decade.

His MVP finishes from 1980-1986 were: 1st, 3rd, 10th, 10th, 4th, 4th, 5th.

So he had five top 5 MVP finishes in the 80's, including a 1st. As a comparison, Hakeem had six top 5 MVP finishes and one 1st place finish in his 18 year career.

In the NBA finals he went: 33/14/3, 18/8/4, 24/8/3, 27/8/4, 26/9/5, 22/7/1, 13/4/1, 13/5/2. These lines don't mention his blocks, such as 5 BPG in 80'.

So he kept producing at a high level in the finals until his age 41 and 42 finals.
If you simply average the averages they are 22/8/3. For some perspective, the finals career average for other big men are K. Malone 20/10/3, KG 17/9/3, McHale 18/7/1, Reed 20/10/3, Cowens 22/13/4, Parish 15/8/1, Dirk 24/10/3.

[RRR3]

As long as they know that Kawhi is better then Kareem. Kawhi didn't need a teammate who more then triples his assist % like Kareem always had with Oscar/Magic.
Better than Kareem :roll:

[Lakers Legend#32]

Magic as a 19 year-old was the Man on the '80 team.

[StrongLurk]

Kareem is a mount rushmore player along with Wilt, MJ and Lebron.

Show some respect.

[TheCorporation]

Kareem is a mount rushmore player along with Wilt, MJ and Lebron.

Show some respect.

75% right. I can't put Wilt in there with those three behemoths. He didn't win enough and didn't have elite level consistency either.

Conference wins/Finals appearances:

Kareem = 10
LeBron = 9 (could be 10 if they close out nuggets)
Jordan = 6
Wilt = 6

Okay, so Wilt is on the lower end for top 10 players but look at his competition

Magic = 9
Kobe = 7
Duncan = 6
Shaq = 6
Bird = 5

[TheCorporation]

Magic didn't need Kareem to anchor #1 offenses, 63 win teams, and make it to the finals. When raptors do that, you can let me know. That's my point, has nothing to do with old Kareem besides he was carried to his final two rings. Lakers replaced Kareem with Divac and were still #1 offense! All Kareem had to do was be better then Vlade Divac to win a title. Magic took Divac to 3 wins away from a title. Magic also eliminated Drexler's blazers when Kareem was at his retirement home. Sorry but Lakers have way more success without Kareem then Raptors have proven without Kawhi. Magic is a top 5 GOAT and Lowry is like top 100 on a good day, I don't know what you want me to tell you.

So then you admit swapping Jordan for Pete Myers shows that Bulls didn't need Jordan? Thanks for the confirmation

Kareem > Jordan

Top 5 goes like this

1. LeBron
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Jordan
5. Magic/Shaq *take your pick*

[houston]

#Cherrypicking.

The missing the playoffs stuff is BS. They missed the playoffs because they went 3-14 (not 17-5) without him. That is his fault? He improved that 14 win pace to 44 wins. Kawhi could only dream of raising a team that much. The next case the Lakers, a roster gutted to acquire Kareem (whereas Kawhi goes only from stacked team to stacked team), had a top 4 record in the WC but missed the playoffs under a rule then that said only the top two teams in each division could make it.

Let's cherry pick Kawhi. We can't have free reign on KAJ but it is "scum" and "hate" to do the same exact thing to Kawhi:

Cherry Picking Kawhi

*Drafted to a 61 win team (1 seed) but failed to win until 2014.
*Wins a FMVP as a role player in 14', for the same reasons and same numbers as Iggy did the next year.
*Not an all-star until his 5th season.
*15/11 with 0.9 APG in the 13' finals. Decent numbers, except the embarrassing assist total--but KAJ would get roasted if he ever went 15/11.
*Bounced in the first round as defending champions. Kawhi outplayed by Duncan, Griffin, and Paul.
*Loses with a 67 win team in the second round. Durant crushes Kawhi in their match up. Kawhi outplayed by Durant, Westbrook, and Aldridge.
*Spurs' internal analytic (per Colin Cowherd) shows the team isn't any better with Kawhi.
*Kawhi quits on the Spurs altogether in 2018. Spurs lose in the 1st round as a healthy Kawhi sits at home.
*Kawhi traded to another 1 seed and they win due to injury luck--but their performance without Kawhi was the same as with him. Their win pace was slightly higher without him, in fact.
*Kawhi demands the Clippers add an all-NBA 1st team player to a team that already had Williams, Harrell because all he knows is stacked teams his entire career (afraid of the challenge?). The Clippers wind up with a worse record than the team that "lost" the great Kawhi and made no major additions to the roster.

This is a joke comparison when one guy has 6 MVP's and the other guy is a 4-time all-star.



Please add what happen in the playoffs with Kawhi this year lolol

[72-10]

can't forget Kareem's (an ATG) legendary performance in the 1983 playoffs - had incredible production on offense considering the wear on his knees, shot the ball well, and defended well racking up some blocked shots records that still stand today, only real weakness was in rebounding where he jousted with other greats of the game with more girth like Artis Gilmore and Moses Malone and lost the rebound battle in the paint