Kobe vs Harden (Rockets) - Playoff Scoring

[StrongLurk]

Kobe's prime (01-13)
28.5ppg on 48.4% EFG, 82.5% FT

Rockets Harden (13-19)
28.2ppg on 48.4% EFG, 87.6% FT

Basically as close as you can get.

Yet the narratives are so different. Perception is a funny thing.

[SATAN]

Harden is boring to watch for the most part. It is what it is.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe's prime (01-13)
28.5ppg on 48.4% EFG, 82.5% FT

Rockets Harden (13-19)
28.2ppg on 48.4% EFG, 87.6% FT

Basically as close as you can get.

Yet the narratives are so different. Perception is a funny thing.

Great examples to illustrate the point. One is considered the epitome of clutch; the other a choker despite identical production in the areas used to argue Harden is a choker.

[Docs Orders]

Great examples to illustrate the point. One is considered the epitome of clutch; the other a choker despite identical production in the areas used to argue Harden is a choker.

If Harden played in LA his entire career he would no doubt be labeled clutch, and 3pt chucking "killer instinct" :oldlol:


Just look at how much they tried to force feed us the Lonzo - D'Lo hype that face planted. Literal scrubs that were marketed as superstar rookies

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol

It is easy to do it: just cherry pick the shots that go in. Sportscenter never did reels about all those game winners Kobe missed.

[tpols]

3 things.

One, if Harden had those numbers for 5 rings, he would probably be considered top 10 all time.

Second, Harden is nowhere near the defender that prime Kobe was, that analysis is completely ommited in your presentation.

Third and most importantly, Harden gets his numbers in a low brand of ball system where he monopolizes possessions. Kobe OTOH got his productions in a high level system, the triangle, which maximizes ball movement and teamwork out of the post.

So when you apply context you get a better "perception" of reality.

[Roundball_Rock]

One, if Harden had those numbers for 5 rings, he would probably be considered top 10 all time.

If Harden is on the 2000's Lakers how many rings does he have? In other words, if he is on the best team instead of playing against the best team how many rings does he have? People keep acting like every player is in equal situations to win rings.


Second, Harden is nowhere near the defender that prime Kobe was, that analysis is completely ommited in your presentation.

Kobe was a better player--so even if they have the same rings Kobe>Harden but the point the OP appeared to be getting at it is they produce similarly offensively yet one is considered a clutch god and the other choker. As you know, "clutch" is defined solely as scoring in the eyes of many fans...

Harden generates more total offense too. The OP goes to scoring (for reasons mentioned) where they are close but Harden would blow him away in total offense.

[StrongLurk]

3 things.

One, if Harden had those numbers for 5 rings, he would probably be considered top 10 all time.

Second, Harden is nowhere near the defender that prime Kobe was, that analysis is completely ommited in your presentation.

Third and most importantly, Harden gets his numbers in a low brand of ball system where he monopolizes possessions. Kobe OTOH got his productions in a high level system, the triangle, which maximizes ball movement and teamwork out of the post.

So when you apply context you get a better "perception" of reality.

You are mostly avoiding my OP and coming up with other discussions. Also, Harden is a GOAT level ISO player regardless of the "system". I mean, he is playing with Westbrook as the other guard, and Harden is still putting up 34/6/7 this year...

Even PER 100 POSS in the playoffs, Harden is at 36.5ppg and Kobe is at 36.1ppg. Both have 111 Offensive Ratings...

[Rico2016]

If Harden played in LA his entire career he would no doubt be labeled clutch, and 3pt chucking "killer instinct" :oldlol:


Just look at how much they tried to force feed us the Lonzo - D'Lo hype that face planted. Literal scrubs that were marketed as superstar rookies

Very true brotha. L.A. hyped up Kobe so hard people have him in the top 12, crazy stuff if you ask me. I'f he can win an MVP soon then I'd probably have Kawhi over Kobe in all honesty if we're being serious.

[Kblaze8855]

I have to imagine that one of them making 6 finals in the time in question and the other only 2 deep runs Kobe takes a hit playing the better defensive finals teams and from 5 runs before they changed the rules for the express purpose of making it easier for guys to score....and Kobe having no games from after they did it again a couple years ago just as Harden coincidentally started scoring like Wilt Chamberlain.

But that last part is a whole other discussion.

[tpols]

You are mostly avoiding my OP and coming up with other discussions. Also, Harden is a GOAT level ISO player regardless of the "system". I mean, he is playing with Westbrook as the other guard, and Harden is still putting up 34/6/7 this year...

Even PER 100 POSS in the playoffs, Harden is at 36.5ppg and Kobe is at 36.1ppg. Both have 111 Offensive Ratings...

I haven't avoided anything.

You only included offense, and not defense, of which there is a massive gap. Strike 1.

You didn't account for the systems they play in and how they maximize ball movement and teammate performance (aka which leads to winning). Strike 2.

And you didn't account for era, current spacing, or team success. Strike 3.

https://i.gifer.com/BlvZ.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

What is your definition of a great offensive player? You seem all over the map, tpols.

[STATUTORY]

can't compare raw stats across era

apples and oranges

[Doranku]

Great examples to illustrate the point. One is considered the epitome of clutch; the other a choker despite identical production in the areas used to argue Harden is a choker.

lmao @ identical production.

Kobe's lowest FG% run was 41.3% during 01-13. Harden has only shot better than that ONE time in the playoffs as a Rocket. :oldlol:

I don't know how eFG% is calculated, but these two are not the same when it comes to efficiency in the playoffs. They just aren't.

[Roundball_Rock]

lmao @ identical production.

Kobe's lowest FG% run was 41.3% during 01-13. Harden has only shot better than that ONE time in the playoffs as a Rocket. :oldlol:

I don't know how eFG% is calculated, but these two are not the same when it comes to efficiency in the playoffs. They just aren't.

Harden takes 13 threes a game. We can't compare his raw FG % with Kobe's with a straight face. eFG% adjusts for a 3 being worth 50% more than a 2. There also is TS %, which factors in FT's. That seems to be the most commonly accepted metric.

You also have to adjust against the league and look at how efficient other stars at the same position were at the time. Here are the prime TS % playoff numbers for 2010's SG's (regular season % in parentheses to assess the change from RS level):

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

Harden is fine relative to his peers in raw efficiency--the issue is the level of decline. He seems to be improving his PO performance in recent years so let's see how that shakes out but if that -4% holds it is a bit concerning, although he is coming from a much higher starting point than his peers. If we want to throw PG's into it, it looks like:

Westbrook 11’-19’: 51.1% (53.6%)
Westbrook 17’-18’: 50.2% (54.0%)
Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Lillard 14’-19’: 54.4% (57.6%)
Irving 13’-19’: 56.0% (57.1%)
Irving 19’: 48.8% (59.2%)
Lowry 15’-19’: 55.1% (57.7%)
DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

So same comment as above re Harden. This also shows we have to go position by position. As you can see, PG's are less efficient than SG's.

[tpols]

here's the thing guys.

OP is making it sound like there's some monumental misconception that Harden and Kobe are equal as offensive players.

I made a mistake including defense since that isn't the scope of the thread. Although said defense is a big part of winning which drives legacy and perception.

But overall we need to look at the following factors when trying to compare stats apples for apples... spacing, system, flopping, simple critical junction observation... all offensive stuff. and anyone with two eyes and a brain for basketball can see how much better Kobe is than Harden at the game.

I wish i could put it simpler for stat nerds but i can't.

[Rico2016]

here's the thing guys.

OP is making it sound like there's some monumental misconception that Harden and Kobe are equal as offensive players.

I made a mistake including defense since that isn't the scope of the thread. Although said defense is a big part of winning which drives legacy and perception.

But overall we need to look at the following factors... spacing, system, flopping, simple critical junction observation... all offensive stuff. and anyone with two eyes and a brain for basketball can see how much better Kobe is than Harden at the game.

I wish i could put it simpler for stat nerds but i can't.

The only you should be making is that Kobe's stats include Finals appearances and Harden's don't. Which means it's even harder to score at that level. The competition rises, the game slows down, the pressure mounts, etc. Harden's stats would go down even further if he made 7 Finals like Kobe, so either wait for Harden to appear in six more to match Kobe's 7 or remove Kobe's Finals stats and only count the first three rounds. Kobe's #s will go up.

[LAmbruh]

Same coach, same system, lesser talent: Harden was able to accomplish and reach greater heights than any of Kobe’s 1st round sweeps with D’Antoni

[Roundball_Rock]

Offense is more than scoring. That is a different discussion. Expanding to overall offense helps Harden versus Kobe. Kobe never led the league in assists or came close to it.

"Stat nerds" is a way to justify saying Miller is a GOAT level offensive player (using some BS stats like Orating) for 21 with 3 APG and then downplaying Harden. :lol

[tpols]

the rockets are 30th in team assists this year. Dead last lol. Couldn't make this shit up.

Kobe's late lakers that won rings were top assist teams in the league. They moved the ball.

Individual assists dont mean anything when you're lowering your team's brand of ball by monopolizing.

That's exactly why the Rockets jumped out to 15 point leads against the KD Chef dubs, and then got blown out.

It's a gimmick to let own man hog all the assists. Not only does it exhaust that individual, but it makes the defense work way less by only having to guard one guy for most of the possesion.

[StrongLurk]

lmao @ identical production.

Kobe's lowest FG% run was 41.3% during 01-13. Harden has only shot better than that ONE time in the playoffs as a Rocket. :oldlol:

I don't know how eFG% is calculated, but these two are not the same when it comes to efficiency in the playoffs. They just aren't.

Bro are you serious with this whole post? You've been posting and watching ball for a long time and you don't understand eFG%?

Can you understand that going 1/2 from 3 is better than going 1/2 from 2-point range?

Do you think the guy shooting 10/20 on all twos is more efficient than a player going 7/20 on all threes? The guy going 7/20 is MORE efficient because 3>2.

[Indian guy]

Kobe's prime lasted till 2010 tops.

Kobe (01-10) 29 ppg on 54% TS (29 ppg on 56% TS in regular season)
Harden (13-19) 28 ppg on 57% TS (29 ppg on 61% TS in regular season)

These raw numbers should be put into context too. It was a lot easier to score post-2004 than before. And even more easier post-2016. Harden has also played on teams that gave him the ball and let him do whatever he wanted with it. Kobe's always had to adhere to a system on the other hand.

The narratives are different for obvious reasons. Harden's numbers always went down in the playoffs. His playoff TS% from 13-19 sees dips of -5%, -10%, +1.5%, -4.5%, -3%, -3.6%, -7%, -5%. And his ppg only rose from the regular season in 2013 and 2014. Thus the 'choker label'. Kobe's far more consistent from RS to PS on the other hand.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe's prime lasted till 2010 tops.

Kobe (01-10) 29 ppg on 54% TS (29 ppg on 56% TS in regular season)
Harden (13-19) 28 ppg on 57% TS (29 ppg on 61% TS in regular season)

These raw numbers should be put into context too. It was a lot easier to score post-2004 than before. And even more easier post-2016. Harden has also played on teams that gave him the ball and let him do whatever he wanted with it. Kobe's always had to adhere to a system on the other hand.

The narratives are different for obvious reasons. Harden's numbers always went down in the playoffs. His playoff TS% from 13-19 sees dips of -5%, -10%, +1.5%, -4.5%, -3%, -3.6%, -7%, -5%. And his ppg only rose from the regular season in 2013 and 2014. Thus the 'choker label'. Kobe's far more consistent from RS to PS on the other hand.

Actually I should have put 01-12 since Kobe actually didn't play in 2013 playoffs...but come on he was still in his prime, just the back end of it of course. Kobe was trash on defense at this point...but on O he still was putting up like 27/5/5 right?

[Jacks3]

Kobe's prime was from 01-10

The defensive competition he played over that stretch was insane. The average team he played over that stretch had a 101 DRTG and held their opponents to a 51.4% TS. He had a 54.8% TS and a 111 ORTG over that span, which means he was easily more efficient than Harden in the postseason once you adjust for environment. This is why you should never compare raw numbers across eras.

[tpols]

Kobe's prime was from 01-10. The defensive competition he played over that stretch was insane. The average team he played over that stretch had a 101 DRTG. This is why you should never compare raw numbers across eras.


Harden has also played on teams that gave him the ball and let him do whatever he wanted with it. Kobe's always had to adhere to a system on the other hand.


OP getting bodied.

Summary of my points.

[Doranku]

Here are the teams Harden has beat in the playoffs as a Rocket:

2015 Mavs (led by 36 year old Dirk and Monta Ellis)
2015 Clippers (CP3 missed 2 games)
2017 Thunder (Westbrook and D-League talent)
2018 Wolves (Wiggins/KAT, enough said)
2018 and 2019 Jazz (best player was a rookie/sophomore)

That's it. This is the collection of teams Harden has beat as a member of the Rockets. Harden hasn't beaten a single good team in the playoffs and has exactly zero memorable moments. How can you even compare the two? Kobe beat like 7 50-win teams when he went b2b with Gasol. Harden has beaten 2, the Clippers who were without CP3 for 2 games in 2015 and the Jazz last year... and he was ****ing awful against both of them. :oldlol:

[light]

Kobe's prime (01-13)
28.5ppg on 48.4% EFG, 82.5% FT

Rockets Harden (13-19)
28.2ppg on 48.4% EFG, 87.6% FT

Basically as close as you can get.

Yet the narratives are so different. Perception is a funny thing.

The narratives are different? How? Most people think Kobe is overrated too.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Damn.. and Harden is a much better playmaker than Kobe to boot

I think Harden has had a better career than Kobe for sure. Harden could easily and probably should have 4 or 5 MVP's to his name. He's been robbed more than anybody. He obviously wins rings with peak Shaq, so that argument doesn't hold weight


1. West
2. Jordan
3. Harden

[Roundball_Rock]

These raw numbers should be put into context too. It was a lot easier to score post-2004 than before. And even more easier post-2016.

Just weeks ago you said the opposite. :confusedshrug:

Harden's decline comes from a higher level than his peers (RS TS % in parentheses):

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

So he is the biggest decliner of the group but he is coming from a much higher level than the others. He nets out to slightly better efficiency than prime Wade or prime Klay. As to Kobe:

Kobe 01'-12': 54.6% (55.6%)

So Kobe has a much smaller decline but he is coming from a lower level. Harden's TS % actually is higher than Kobe's in the playoffs, although as someone noted Kobe faced 7 finals' defenses so it would be interesting to parse the numbers through 3 rounds for each.

[Nashty]

Harden is better than Kobe, everyone knows that. People think Kobe was good because he was in illuminati, and media who are also part of the illuminati were programming people by pushing agenda as Kobe being great player while in reality he was not.

[Axe]

Here are the teams Harden has beat in the playoffs as a Rocket:

2015 Mavs (led by 36 year old Dirk and Monta Ellis)
2015 Clippers (CP3 missed 2 games)
2017 Thunder (Westbrook and D-League talent)
2018 Wolves (Wiggins/KAT, enough said)
2018 and 2019 Jazz (best player was a rookie/sophomore)

That's it. This is the collection of teams Harden has beat as a member of the Rockets. Harden hasn't beaten a single good team in the playoffs and has exactly zero memorable moments. How can you even compare the two? Kobe beat like 7 50-win teams when he went b2b with Gasol. Harden has beaten 2, the Clippers who were without CP3 for 2 games in 2015 and the Jazz last year... and he was ****ing awful against both of them. :oldlol:
If you think that harden has exactly zero memorable moments in the playoffs, then so is stephen curry.

[Doranku]

If you think that harden has exactly zero memorable moments in the playoffs, then so is stephen curry.

I like Curry, but his most memorable playoff moment is getting swatted by Bran and then subsequently having a meltdown and throwing his mouthpiece into the stands.

[Indian guy]

Just weeks ago you said the opposite. :confusedshrug:

Before 2004 as in the 1999-2004 period of the NBA, which was the offensive low point of the league post-1980.

[Axe]

I like Curry, but his most memorable playoff moment is getting swatted by Bran and then subsequently having a meltdown and throwing his mouthpiece into the stands.
That i can agree with

[Roundball_Rock]

Before 2004 as in the 1999-2004 period of the NBA, which was the offensive low point of the league post-1980.

You don't even try to hide the agenda-driven cherry picking. :lol

[TheCorporation]

Have we figured this one out yet?

Harden or Kobe for playoff performance?