Durant vs. Kawhi: Greater player when it is all said and done?

[Roundball_Rock]

To me this is for all practical purposes over but this comes up so I am curious where ISH stands.

Currently they aren't close all-time or in resumes. Kawhi is 3 years younger so in theory has more time left to close the gap but 1) 3 years are unlikely to be enough given the size of the gap 2) KD may outlast Kawhi, who hasn't played full-time in years, purportedly due to a chronic knee condition 3) KD's resume advantage is banked; Kawhi's is speculative and would require him staying healthy.

For reference, here is where they stand today (KD is 31, Kawhi 28).

All-NBA: KD 9, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: KD 6, Kawhi 2
MVP: KD 1, Kawhi 0
DPOY: Kawhi 2, KD 0
All-D: Kawhi 5, KD 0
FMVP: 2 each
Scoring champ: KD 4, Kawhi 0
Steals champ: Kawhi 1, KD 0
ROY: KD 1, Kawhi 0

On the most recent all-time list, ESPN had Durant #14 and Kawhi #25.

In total stats it is lopsided and Kawhi's inability (or unwillingness) to play full seasons will hamper him there.

[Roundball_Rock]

4-0 for KD so far.

[insidious301]

I'll say Kawhi. How much hid Durant move up in the rankings after those 2 rings in Oakland? That is to say if he moved up at all. I believe Kawhi still has a handful of opportunities with a great second option in Paul George. As well as a good supporting cast and well-run organization. Both of these players are injury prone right now but I think Durant is more on the decline than Kawhi. With Durant you want to see him return healthy but with that kind of injury you just never know.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi's 2014 finals MVP is equal to Durant's finals MVPS.

Durant has yet to have a playoff run like 2019 Kawhi. So I would say Kawhi is ahead right now as I value playoff runs more then regular season scoring titles.

Durant also has one of the biggest chokejobs in history to his resume the 2016 WCF. I don't think prime Kawhi blows a 3-1 lead like that. Kawhi is busy backdoor sweeping teams after they are leading 2-0 on him (ECF 2019).

[Fudge]

Kawhi shouldn't have gotten the 2014 FMVP.

Realistically, he should have 1.

Durant carried those GSW punks to titles against arguably the Greatest Player EVER.

KD and it's not even close.

[Carbine]

KD career wise but at their best I'd take Kawhi.

Spurs are my team, he F'ed them over but the biggest compliment I can give him is ON THE FLOOR he's the SG/SF version of Tim Duncan.

[Phoenix]

KD career wise but at their best I'd take Kawhi.

Spurs are my team, he F'ed them over but the biggest compliment I can give him is ON THE FLOOR he's the SG/SF version of Tim Duncan.

What happened with your Bulls playoff run thread?

[tpols]

Kawhi is giving you a super elite playoff ORTG of 120, with pippen esque defense.

and way clutcher.

KD was a perennial choker before he team hopped to a 73 win championship team.

[Roundball_Rock]

I just can't compare Kawhi at face value with other superstars because none of the others has the advantage of taking 20 games off each year. If other superstars did that they would look better on a game-to-game basis too, as would their stats.


Kawhi still has a handful of opportunities with a great second option in Paul George. As well as a good supporting cast and well-run organization

In theory. They may lose out on this year altogether and I believe PG and Kawhi both have options to bolt after 21'.


Kawhi's 2014 finals MVP is equal to Durant's finals MVPS.

:biggums:


Durant has yet to have a playoff run like 2019 Kawhi

Kawhi was 31/9/4 in 19' (by far his best run). KD has runs of 32/5/5, 31/9/6, 30/9/4, 29/8/3, 28/7/3, 29/8/5, 29/8/4,29/7/4, 25/8/2. In other words, KD does it year after year. Kawhi? 31/9/4 in 19' but other than that 28/8/5, 23/6/3, 20/7/3, 14/7/2, 14/9/1, 9/6/1.

That's the big difference between the two player's resumes. One guy has dominated for a decade; the other for a couple years.


Durant also has one of the biggest chokejobs in history to his resume the 2016 WCF

That is a black mark but it was to a 73 win team and Kawhi himself lost in the first round with the defending champs. Every player has black marks.

[Roundball_Rock]

Another thing to consider: OKC fell off a lot more losing KD than Toronto did losing Kawhi, and OKC got a major addition in Oladipo to soften the blow. Toronto got nothing.

Toronto SRS': +5.49 last year (3rd), +5.88 this year (4th in the NBA)
OKC SRS': +7.09 (3rd) in 16', +1.14 (10th) in 17'

Both players missed time in their final season in that city. OKC went 3-7 without KD; Toronto went 17-5 without Kawhi.

A caveat is the Spurs' experienced a larger drop without Kawhi than the Raptors did, but there the change was from 2nd in SRS to 7th in 18' (+7.13 to +2.89) so still not as large as OKCs' and the Spurs did not add a player of Oladipo's caliber like OKC did. Not sure what the SRS was in the handful of games Kawhi played but they went 5-4 in those games, 42-31 without him. That is statistically insignificant (47 win pace without him, 46 with him).

[rawimpact]

Durant vs Kawhi is like Shaq vs Duncan

You have an absolute beast on one side that when on is unstoppable and on the other you have textbook perfection all-around game that just knows how to win and make the right play.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I just can't compare Kawhi at face value with other superstars because none of the others has the advantage of taking 20 games off each year. If other superstars did that they would look better on a game-to-game basis too, as would their stats.



In theory. They may lose out on this year altogether and I believe PG and Kawhi both have options to bolt after 21'.



:biggums:



Kawhi was 31/9/4 in 19' (by far his best run). KD has runs of 32/5/5, 31/9/6, 30/9/4, 29/8/3, 28/7/3, 29/8/5, 29/8/4,29/7/4, 25/8/2. In other words, KD does it year after year. Kawhi? 31/9/4 in 19' but other than that 28/8/5, 23/6/3, 20/7/3, 14/7/2, 14/9/1, 9/6/1.

That's the big difference between the two player's resumes. One guy has dominated for a decade; the other for a couple years.



That is a black mark but it was to a 73 win team and Kawhi himself lost in the first round with the defending champs. Every player has black marks.

Efficiency is a huge deal. Kawhi had 63% TS in 2019 playoffs. Durant in playoffs with Thunder was never even close to that besides 2012. And 2012 finals he won 1 game with Westbrook/Harden on his team.

Warriors Durant efficiency goes through the roof while playing with 2/5 greatest shooters ever. Give Kawhi two shooters like Curry/Klay on his team? Imagine the spacing he has to operate! Instead he's stuck with Siakam missing 12 straight threes in the finals. Thunder Durant consistently underperformed in the playoffs besides 2012.

[insidious301]

In theory. They may lose out on this year altogether and I believe PG and Kawhi both have options to bolt after 21'.

My post assumes both stay because of fit, location and situation. You are correct though. Today's NBA is different and that stuff doesn't last long. But if they happened to stay together? Would be hard to believe Kawhi's resume doesn't become greater. I'm not totally sold on the Durant and Kyrie duo. Mainly because of Durant's injury. More importantly though I don't view the 2 rings Durant won in Oakland as significant. I'm not sure either really made him better or "greater". Those championships were all but guaranteed.

[Carbine]

I don't like the Raptors are better or elite without Kawhi.

They have been a regular season team for awhile now, with or without Kawhi.

They were perennial playoff chokers besides the one Kawhi season. It wouldn't surprise me whatsoever if they exited early this year, but that's where the proof will be in the pudding.

[Carbine]

What happened with your Bulls playoff run thread?

I'm beginning the second half of the ECF GM1 tonight. Dougherty hooks are beautiful.

[Roundball_Rock]

Efficiency is a huge deal. Kawhi had 63% TS in 2019 playoffs

True. Both are efficient but Kawhi is unreal (RS efficiency in parentheses):

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)


My post assumes both stay because of fit, location and situation. You are correct though. Today's NBA is different and that stuff doesn't last long. But if they happened to stay together? Would be hard to believe Kawhi's resume doesn't become greater. I'm not totally sold on the Durant and Kyrie duo. Mainly because of Durant's injury. More importantly though I don't view the 2 rings Durant won in Oakland as significant. I'm not sure either really made him better or "greater". Those championships were all but guaranteed.

Got it. Yeah, if they stay together and healthy it is hard to see them not winning a ring or multiple.

I don't think Durant wins any more rings. Kyrie is a cancer. Durant will continue to rack up personal accolades and stats, though. Durant, if healthy (a question mark), could win another MVP. Kawhi never will because you can't be MVP when you take so much time off.

KD also doesn't need to do as much in this comparison because he already has a large lead banked against Kawhi.


They were perennial playoff chokers besides the one Kawhi season

They did make the ECF (losing to the NBA champs--no shame there) without Kawhi but generally underachieved. That said, we don't know if that will continue. There are key differences between the pre-Kawhi team and today's team.

Top 8 guys on the 18' team by MPG: DeRozan, Lowry, Ibaka, JV, Wright, Siakam, Anunoby, FVV (Powell 11th)
Top 8 guys on the 20' team by MPG: Lowry, FVV, Siakam, Anunoby, Powell, Gasol, Ibaka, McCaw

Lowry is the only constant. The others are gone (DeRozan, JV, Wright) or are younger players whose roles have expanded a lot since 18' (Siakam, Aununoby, FVV, Powell) or additions (Gasol, McCaw). Not to mention the coaching change from Casey to Nurse.

[insidious301]

Got it. Yeah, if they stay together and healthy it is hard to see them not winning a ring or multiple.

I don't think Durant wins any more rings. Kyrie is a cancer. Durant will continue to rack up personal accolades and stats, though. Durant, if healthy (a question mark), could win another MVP. Kawhi never will because you can't be MVP when you take so much time off.

KD also doesn't need to do as much in this comparison because he already has a large lead banked against Kawhi.

Great post. Your point about Kawhi never winning an MVP is a very good one. I suppose the question then becomes, what do you value more: Regular-season awards or Postseason play? Everyone has their opinion and there are valid arguments on both ends.

[Phoenix]

Kawhi is likely to end up with more rings but if hes only good for 60 games a year he ain't winning MVP and his career totals arent going to end up all that impressive compared to other all-timers. Not when you got Giannis dropping 30/12/6 in 32 mins and taking his team to 60 plus wins, Harden in his prime and guys like Luka and Zion on the horizon.

Durant is going to end up the more individually accomplished player ( stats, career totals, MVP awards, all NBAs). Where people will deduct points is the perception that he road shotgun on a championship level team. But Kawhi isnt innocent in this record either; the Raptors were a really good team before him, were really good last year when he was out, and really good this year with him gone. Both of them have those kinds of armor holes in their career stories.

When it shakes out history is going to see Durant as the greater player legacy-wise. Peakwise they're close but Durant has simply done it much longer. Kawhi took 4 years to become a star ( that's not abnormal), missed almost an entire year and the load management is going to be frowned upon in 20 years. It is now.

[Carbine]

Raptors were good without him, champions with him and TBD without him for this crew. This will never be a ***** in his armor, that the Raptors were good before and after he left. That's just a really bad take. He's a GOD in Canada because he did what no other "superstar" could do and that's make that city/country a champion. They still love him even after he left a defending championship team, that is telling.

[tpols]

The raptors were a laughingstock before kawhi got there.

They weren't just losing, they couldn't even make series competitive.

Them and the hawks. Games would be over in the first quarter and you'd have to change the channel.

[Phoenix]

Raptors were good without him, champions with him and TBD without him for this crew. This will never be a ***** in his armor, that the Raptors were good before and after he left. That's just a really bad take. He's a GOD in Canada because he did what no other "superstar" could do and that's make that city/country a champion. They still love him even after he left a defending championship team, that is telling.

He deserves to be a god in Canada. He was instrumental in delivering their lone NBA title in 25 years. But if we are going to be critical of Durant joining the Warriors, it's fair to mention that Kawhi joined a team that was ECF worthy without him depending on what round they bumped into Lebron. Both of these guys were cherries on the top to some degree, and I dont think you reference one situation without at least mentioning the other. Of course, the 16 Warriors that KD joined were much better than the 18 Raptors but point is, neither of these guys won with teams built from the ground up around them.

[Carbine]

I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out how much the Spurs have fallen without Kawhi.

They got an all-star and key bench player back in return and with the "GOAT" coach as some believe those Spurs turned into a pretender real quick.

With Kawhi they looked like they could compete with the Warriors, without him they were kind of a joke.

Then this year has been a complete disaster.

The feeling around the Spurs with Kawhi was "legit contender" but you sub him out for Derozen and we've seen what happens. Even with Pop.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Durant vs Kawhi is like Shaq vs Duncan

You have an absolute beast on one side that when on is unstoppable and on the other you have textbook perfection all-around game that just knows how to win and make the right play.
Great analogy. Also Shaq and KD are the most insecure people ever and Kawhi/TD couldn't care less about narratives. So similar playing style and characterwise.

[r0drig0lac]

19 playoffs Kawhi >>> Durant`s playoffs career

[tpols]

He deserves to be a god in Canada. He was instrumental in delivering their lone NBA title in 25 years. But if we are going to be critical of Durant joining the Warriors, it's fair to mention that Kawhi joined a team that was ECF worthy without him depending on what round they bumped into Lebron. Both of these guys were cherries on the top to some degree, and I dont think you reference one situation without at least mentioning the other. Of course, the 16 Warriors that KD joined were much better than the 18 Raptors but point is, neither of these guys won with teams built from the ground up around them.

thats not even true though... they werent touching ECF's without derozan all those years. And he was shipped out.

it would be like if KD joined the warriors after they got rid of Curry for a proper analogy.

[Carbine]

thats not even true though... they werent touching ECF's without derozan all those years. And he was shipped out.

it would be like if KD joined the warriors after they got rid of Curry for a proper analogy.

That's not proper at all, lol.

The Warriors were already a 73 win, title winning and back to back final appearance team.

The Raptors best effort the two prior years to Kawhi was swept in the second round both years.

[tpols]

of course durant's move was a million times worse i agree.

the revisionist history around kawhi's move to toronto is incredible. NOBODY was saying it was unfair when he did it.

[Phoenix]

thats not even true though... they werent touching ECF's without derozan all those years. And he was shipped out.

it would be like if KD joined the warriors after they got rid of Curry for a proper analogy.

He was shipped out for Kahwi. Id say thats a reasonable upgrade, wouldnt you say?

They made the eastern conference finals in 2016. Lost to Lebron. 2nd round in 2017 and 2018, same end boss. Basically if Lebron ain't there playing bogeyman they'd have been in the ECFs every year before Kawhi got there. Point is they werent complete dogshit.

[Phoenix]

of course durant's move was a million times worse i agree.

the revisionist history around kawhi's move to toronto is incredible. NOBODY was saying it was unfair when he did it.

Nobody now is saying it was unfair. The point being made is they were 17-5 without him in 2019 so its not like they fell off the map in the games he missed. Kawhi got them over the top but the foundation was there.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post. Your point about Kawhi never winning an MVP is a very good one. I suppose the question then becomes, what do you value more: Regular-season awards or Postseason play? Everyone has their opinion and there are valid arguments on both ends.

True, the other factor is how much do you value peak play? I suspect Kawhi will be T Mac, except with team success, in the sense of having 4-5 great seasons but poor longevity. Kawhi already was a role player for 4 seasons and if his knees are as bad as he and his people claim, he won't last long. So the case for Kawhi will turn on peak. Most people factor peak in but overall prime play and longevity are factors as well but if someone is all about peak then Kawhi will go higher.


Kawhi is likely to end up with more rings but if hes only good for 60 games a year he ain't winning MVP and his career totals arent going to end up all that impressive compared to other all-timers. Not when you got Giannis dropping 30/12/6 in 32 mins and taking his team to 60 plus wins, Harden in his prime and guys like Luka and Zion on the horizon.

Agreed.


Where people will deduct points is the perception that he road shotgun on a championship level team.

I'm not sure this will happen and if it does it may not matter to future generations. LeBron got a lot of flack early on but a decade later it is forgotten. Durant's case was more extreme but I suspect 30-50 years now people will say he was on a stacked team but so was everyone else in the top 15 all-time (except maybe Hakeem) so who cares? That isn't how I read it (although I don't strictly ring count like many others in the first place) but I suspect that is where the historical verdict will come down.


But Kawhi isnt innocent in this record either; the Raptors were a really good team before him, were really good last year when he was out, and really good this year with him gone

Yeah and he has been on stacked teams his entire career. KD at least started out on bad teams. Brooklyn is an average team without him. Spurs, Raptors were both the 1 seed before him and the Clippers were a near 50 win team before him and added 2 superstars (a condition of him signing--not exactly the sign of a guy confident he can "carry" any team).


When it shakes out history is going to see Durant as the greater player legacy-wise. Peakwise they're close but Durant has simply done it much longer. Kawhi took 4 years to become a star ( that's not abnormal), missed almost an entire year and the load management is going to be frowned upon in 20 years. It is now.

Agreed. Peak is close but overall length of prime and overall achievements will result in KD winning in a landslide. The real question with KD is if he can crack the tail end of the top 10 before it is all over.


Raptors were good without him, champions with him and TBD without him for this crew. This will never be a ***** in his armor, that the Raptors were good before and after he left.

It goes to team impact--the central claim made by people advocating for Kawhi. If he is the player his advocates say he is, how do you replace him with Anunoby and have identical results?

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out how much the Spurs have fallen without Kawhi.

They got an all-star and key bench player back in return and with the "GOAT" coach as some believe those Spurs turned into a pretender real quick.

I mentioned it--they fell off less than the Thunder did without KD in year one. The Spurs faded over time but Aldridge is 34 now, DeRozan 30. They went 47-35, 48-34 the first two years without Kawhi (OKC went 47-35 with peak Westbrook and Oladipo without KD and then 48-34 the next year with PG added). They took the Nuggets to 7 games last year, who took Portland to 7. Eventually the wheels of a 30 year run have to come off but they didn't turn into a lottery team as soon as Kawhi left.

OKC after KD is identical to SA after Kawhi the first two years in win totals and playoff outcomes (the one difference is SA went to Game 7, OKC only Game 6). This is favorable to KD...OKC had Westbrook, PG, Oladipo; SA added only DeRozan. Yet similar results. OKC needed PG, Oladipo, and peak Westbrook to perform at a 47-48 win level while the Spurs were able to do it simply swapping Kawhi for DeRozan.


thats not even true though... they werent touching ECF's without derozan all those years. And he was shipped out.

That gets into comparing across years. Teams turnover each year and there is a lot of turnover when you get to comparing teams from 3-4 years ago. Siakam has emerged as probably a better player than DeRozan was, Lowry is still good, and you have others like FVV who have emerged. The 20' Raptors clearly have ECF potential.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I mentioned it--they fell off less than the Thunder did without KD in year one. The Spurs faded over time but Aldridge is 34 now, DeRozan 30. They went 47-35, 48-34 the first two years without Kawhi (OKC went 47-35 with peak Westbrook and Oladipo without KD and then 48-34 the next year with PG added). They took the Nuggets to 7 games last year, who took Portland to 7. Eventually the wheels of a 30 year run have to come off but they didn't turn into a lottery team as soon as Kawhi left.

OKC after KD is identical to SA after Kawhi the first two years in win totals and playoff outcomes (the one difference is SA went to Game 7, OKC only Game 6). This is favorable to KD...OKC had Westbrook, PG, Oladipo; SA added only DeRozan. Yet similar results. OKC needed PG, Oladipo, and peak Westbrook to perform at a 47-48 win level while the Spurs were able to do it simply swapping Kawhi for DeRozan.



That gets into comparing across years. Teams turnover each year and there is a lot of turnover when you get to comparing teams from 3-4 years ago. Siakam has emerged as probably a better player than DeRozan was, Lowry is still good, and you have others like FVV who have emerged. The 20' Raptors clearly have ECF potential.

Spurs 2017 with Kawhi: 61 wins

Spurs 2018 without Kawhi: 47 wins

Thunder 2016 with Durant: 55 wins

Thunder 2017 without Durant: 47 wins

Spurs with a 14 win drop off to thunder's 8 win dropoff

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True, the other factor is how much do you value peak play? I suspect Kawhi will be T Mac, except with team success, in the sense of having 4-5 great seasons but poor longevity. Kawhi already was a role player for 4 seasons and if his knees are as bad as he and his people claim, he won't last long. So the case for Kawhi will turn on peak. Most people factor peak in but overall prime play and longevity are factors as well but if someone is all about peak then Kawhi will go higher.



Agreed.



I'm not sure this will happen and if it does it may not matter to future generations. LeBron got a lot of flack early on but a decade later it is forgotten. Durant's case was more extreme but I suspect 30-50 years now people will say he was on a stacked team but so was everyone else in the top 15 all-time (except maybe Hakeem) so who cares? That isn't how I read it (although I don't strictly ring count like many others in the first place) but I suspect that is where the historical verdict will come down.



Yeah and he has been on stacked teams his entire career. KD at least started out on bad teams. Brooklyn is an average team without him. Spurs, Raptors were both the 1 seed before him and the Clippers were a near 50 win team before him and added 2 superstars (a condition of him signing--not exactly the sign of a guy confident he can "carry" any team).



Agreed. Peak is close but overall length of prime and overall achievements will result in KD winning in a landslide. The real question with KD is if he can crack the tail end of the top 10 before it is all over.



It goes to team impact--the central claim made by people advocating for Kawhi. If he is the player his advocates say he is, how do you replace him with Anunoby and have identical results?

Identical results? Where is raptors ring at? Also why did raptors offense fall to 14th?

[SouBeachTalents]

Depending on health Kawhi should be in title contention for a while. Imo he definitely takes a hit for being able to miss 20 games a year and still be a top seed, a luxury very few superstars have had. Because of this he'll never win MVP & have lesser career totals, but he could realistically walk away with 3-4 titles/FMVP's, in addition to being a multiple DPOY.

Durant really compromised himself in these discussions. I know, if he stayed in OKC and never won a ring people would give him shit for that too, but the bitter irony of his decision is that he's now well known for his rings, but they carry literally the most negative connotation for any players titles that I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe in 10-20 years the narrative will change, but I think that's going to loom over his career for a while.

So imo, if Kawhi is able to remain a superstar for 5 more years, win another 1-2 titles/FMVP's, I don't see how he won't get the nod over Durant for most people

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Depending on health Kawhi should be in title contention for a while. Imo he definitely takes a hit for being able to miss 20 games a year and still be a top seed, a luxury very few superstars have had. Because of this he'll never win MVP & have lesser career totals, but he could realistically walk away with 3-4 titles/FMVP's, in addition to being a multiple DPOY.

Durant really compromised himself in these discussions. I know, if he stayed in OKC and never won a ring people would give him shit for that too, but the bitter irony of his decision is that he's now well known for his rings, but they carry literally the most negative connotation for any players titles that I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe in 10-20 years the narrative will change, but I think that's going to loom over his career for a while.

So imo, if Kawhi is able to remain a superstar for 5 more years, win another 1-2 titles/FMVP's, I don't see how he won't get the nod over Durant for most people

2020 Kawhi if he plays the last 8 games he will be at about 82% of the season. Anchoring a top 3 offense and top 5 defense

2017 - 2nd in MVP

2016 - Clear cut best player on 67 win teams

Kawhi has had 3 regular seasons when he would win MVP in a lot of different era's. The problem is Westbrook's triple double season, Curry/Giannis 70+ win seasons were so historic that Kawhi got snubbed.

Every season of Kawhi's prime (2016-present) was MVP level besides in Canada when he coasted defensively until playoffs cause it's a 1 year rental anyway. Three MVP level regular seasons already in 16, 17, 20

[Roundball_Rock]

Identical results?

Spurs without Kawhi in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Spurs without Kawhi in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

Thunder without KD in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Thunder without KD in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

This is favorable to KD since OKC had peak Westbrook and got Oladipo and PG. SA got only DeRozan when Kawhi left.


2020 Kawhi if he plays the last 8 games he will be at about 82% of the season.

:coleman:

You know he won't play all 8 (over/under should be 6). :lol This is sad: 82% is a high end scenario. No other superstar has ever done this but Kawhi needs to recharge his batteries every couple games. He is 28. What happens when he ages? Does he take half the season off at 32?


Every season of Kawhi's prime (2016-present) was MVP level

You can't be MVP when you take 20 games off. Besides, we are comparing 4 elite years with a decade of dominance.

[light]

Kawhi has a similar problem as Curry - similar but different. No MVPs. Except for the fact that league MVPs are harder to win than Finals MVPs.

Guys like Tony Parker, Igoudala, Billups, Cedric Maxwell, Jo Jo White, Dennis Johnson can win Finals MVPs but they could never win league MVP, for example.

To win Finals MVP all you have to do is play well for 3 games and beat out only a handful of other guys in the series, but to win league MVP you have to play well for months and beat out everybody in the association.

So Kawhi has to get his act together and show us that he can win the hardest award there is to win - a league MVP (or two) - if he wants a seat at the table of true greatness.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Spurs without Kawhi in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Spurs without Kawhi in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

Thunder without KD in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Thunder without KD in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

This is favorable to KD since OKC had peak Westbrook and got Oladipo and PG. SA got only DeRozan when Kawhi left.



:coleman:

You know he won't play all 8 (over/under should be 6). :lol This is sad: 82% is a high end scenario. No other superstar has ever done this but Kawhi needs to recharge his batteries every couple games. He is 28. What happens when he ages? Does he take half the season off at 32?



You can't be MVP when you take 20 games off. Besides, we are comparing 4 elite years with a decade of dominance.

Westbrook carried that thunder team in 2017 by himself, the next four players in top minutes were all negative BPM. They had no right being only 8 games worse without Durant. 1 man team that Westbrook carried by himself to just -8 less wins, that's a knock on Durant. Spurs had more respectable role players and a GOAT level head coach.

By age 32, I'm expecting Kawhi to have at least 4-5 finals MVPS so we will worry about it when the time comes.

[Roundball_Rock]

Guys like Tony Parker, Igoudala, Billups, Cedric Maxwell, Jo Jo White, Dennis Johnson can win Finals MVPs but they could never win league MVP, for example.

To win Finals MVP all you have to do is play well for 3 games and beat out only a handful of other guys in the series, but to win league MVP you have to play well for months and beat out everybody in the association.

So Kawhi has to get his act together and show us that he can win the hardest award there is to win - a league MVP (or two) - if he wants a seat at the table of true greatness.

Good points. Who is the highest all-time guy with zero MVP's? I think it would be West and he usually is top 15 but not top 10 on 90% of lists. Plus he was losing MVP's in an era where Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar were winning them. Kawhi is losing them in an era where Harden, Westbrook, Curry are winning.


Westbrook carried that thunder team in 2017 by himself, the next four players in top minutes were all negative BPM.

Yeah, and even with that they still fell off more than the Spurs did.


They had no right being only 8 games worse without Durant.

That is because they went 3-7 without Durant. With KD they had a 59 win pace so the decline is from that 59 win pace to 47 wins.


By age 32, I'm expecting Kawhi to have at least 4-5 finals MVPS so we will worry about it when the time comes.

Why so confident? First, it requires being on the champion. Second, it is possible PG or even Williams win FMVP even if the Clippers win.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Good points. Who is the highest all-time guy with zero MVP's? I think it would be West and he usually is top 15 but not top 10 on 90% of lists. Plus he was losing MVP's in an era where Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar were winning them. Kawhi is losing them in an era where Harden, Westbrook, Curry are winning.



Yeah, and even with that they still fell off more than the Spurs did.



That is because they went 3-7 without Durant. With KD they had a 59 win pace so the decline is from that 59 win pace to 47 wins.



Why so confident? First, it requires being on the champion. Second, it is possible PG or even Williams win FMVP even if the Clippers win.

3-7 without Durant? That's Durant's fault for missing games. Tell me clippers win pace when Kawhi plays and compare it to their wins the previous season.

Westbrook flooded with garbage was a top 10 SRS team and Durant couldn't even take them to the finals in 2016 despite being up 3-1.

[imdaman99]

KD for now but Kawhi gets past him with another ring, which I think he is closer to getting than KD is.

[Kgisbigticket21]

Durant because of mvp

[bobopenguin]

durant cos he wasnt restricted by load management.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kevin Durant at 27 years old vs Warriors: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 2.9 assist, 54% TS, 106 offensive rating, 20.1 GmSc

Kawhi Leonard at 27 years old vs Warriors: 29 points, 10 rebounds, 4.2 assists, 61% TS, 122 offensive rating, 23.9 GmSc

Major win by Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

durant cos he wasnt restricted by load management.

Luka has only played 3 more games then Kawhi this year. I guess you are going to ignore Luka's great year as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

Luka actually got hurt. Kawhi is the only player who--as a condition of joining a team--demands to take a game off nearly weekly while healthy. Allegedly he has bad knees--but his fans and advocates in the media must not take that claim seriously because they forecast Kawhi dominating for as far as the eye can see. A legitimately hurt player would be viewed on a year-to-year basis, no?

[Phoenix]

Luka has only played 3 more games then Kawhi this year. I guess you are going to ignore Luka's great year as well.

Luka was injured. The games Kawhi missed were not because he wasn't medically cleared to play, it was part of his maintenance plan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Luka was injured. The games Kawhi missed were not because he wasn't medically cleared to play, it was part of his maintenance plan.

Which started a week into the season. :lol

We have heard it said he missed games only against bad teams in 2019. Here are the games he missed:

@WAS
@MIL
@LAL
@UTA
@CHI
@ATL
@LAC
@GSW
@PHI
IND
PHO (missed four games in a row here through @ IND)
MEM
SAC
@IND
@ATL
WAS
ORL
@DET
@MIA
NYK
@NYK
@CHI

It seems he only needs "load management" while on the road. :confusedshrug: As far as team strength goes, he missed them against the gamut of teams, consistent with missing such a large number of games. This included missing games against conference rivals like Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Indiana or a juggernaut like the Warriors--games his team in theory would need him for.

[Run DLC]

At their very best, I honestly think that Kawhi is a more well-rounded player. KD is obviously a better all-around scorer/shooter, and Kawhi is obviously a better all-around defender. There’s not much separation between the two after that. They’re both above average play-makers and rebounders, but I think a healthy Kawhi has more value to a team needs than Durant’s scoring.

[Bronbron23]

Kawhi shouldn't have gotten the 2014 FMVP.

Realistically, he should have 1.

Durant carried those GSW punks to titles against arguably the Greatest Player EVER.

KD and it's not even close.

This dosnt make sense honestly. Why shouldn't he have won fmvp? He was tied with parker for most points on the team and was way more efficient. he also played elite defense on the same player that you give kd credit for beating even though kd had the way better team. Kawhi haters like nick wright will highlight lebrons efficiency during that finals but they they totally ignore the fact that lebron shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi. He totally disrupted lebron and the heats offense and has a huge impact defensively that series. You dont know what your talking about dude

[Whoah10115]

This dosnt make sense honestly. Why shouldn't he have won fmvp? He was tied with parker for most points on the team and was way more efficient. he also played elite defense on the same player that you give kd credit for beating even though kd had the way better team. Kawhi haters like nick wright will highlight lebrons efficiency during that finals but they they totally ignore the fact that lebron shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi. He totally disrupted lebron and the heats offense and has a huge impact defensively that series. You dont know what your talking about dude

Manu was denied, a second time, his FMVP.

Still don't care. I think Durant is better, tho I do believe that Kawhi goes beyond his numbers more than Durant.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi haters like nick wright will highlight lebrons efficiency during that finals but they they totally ignore the fact that lebron shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi

Yeah, it is a misleading TP from Wright and a black mark on LeBron that he got stifled to that extent by Kawhi and Iggy (the next year). He doesn't have the array of skills or a go to move to fallback on when the chips are down against great defenders like KAJ, MJ etc. did.

Kawhi did a great job on LeBron. What about against, KD, though? They played each other in 2016 in the WCSF with both players in their primes, healthy and on contenders. San Antonio was a 67 win team, OKC a 55 win team (59 win pace with KD--still not close to 67). Here is what happened:

Durant 29/7/4 on 60% TS
Kawhi 23/7/4 on 55% TS

The "help" excuse doesn't fly. The best players in the series by game score were (in order): Aldridge, Durant, Westbrook, Kawhi, Adams, Green, Parker, Ibaka, Kanter, Manu. So a basically even split. As for the second stars on each team:


Aldridge 27/9/2 on 59% TS
Westbrook 25/7/11 on 48% TS

[Fudge]

Jesus, you're dumb.

Parker and even Duncan were more valuable than Kawhi in that series.

But congrats to Kawhi on limiting LeBron to 28/8/4/2 on 57/52/79! :roll: Phucking r-tard.

Damn, LeKang might have had a more deserving series to win FMVP despite the loss. GOAT.

[Bronbron23]

Manu was denied, a second time, his FMVP.

Still don't care. I think Durant is better, tho I do believe that Kawhi goes beyond his numbers more than Durant.

I disagree although manu played good as usual. Hes one of the most underrated players ever imo.

And i wasn't arguing thar kawhi is better. Kd is definitely better. Kawhi coukd catch him though. Kd wont win again and kawhi coukd win 1 or 2 more befoe hes done. 2 more chips and fmvps and hes better in my book

[Bronbron23]

Yeah, it is a misleading TP from Wright and a black mark on LeBron that he got stifled to that extent by Kawhi and Iggy (the next year). He doesn't have the array of skills or a go to move to fallback on when the chips are down against great defenders like KAJ, MJ etc. did.

Kawhi did a great job on LeBron. What about against, KD, though? They played each other in 2016 in the WCSF with both players in their primes, healthy and on contenders. San Antonio was a 67 win team, OKC a 55 win team (59 win pace with KD--still not close to 67). Here is what happened:

Durant 29/7/4 on 60% TS
Kawhi 23/7/4 on 55% TS

The "help" excuse doesn't fly. The best players in the series by game score were (in order): Aldridge, Durant, Westbrook, Kawhi, Adams, Green, Parker, Ibaka, Kanter, Manu. So a basically even split. As for the second stars on each team:


Aldridge 27/9/2 on 59% TS
Westbrook 25/7/11 on 48% TS

wasnt arguing that kawhi is better just that he deserved the fmvp in 2014. As of right now kd is better.

[Bronbron23]

Jesus, you're dumb.

Parker and even Duncan were more valuable than Kawhi in that series.

But congrats to Kawhi on limiting LeBron to 28/8/4/2 on 57/52/79! :roll: Phucking r-tard.

Damn, LeKang might have had a more deserving series to win FMVP despite the loss. GOAT.

Nope wrong again dummy. You cant just use stats to fit your narrative and then ignore them when it doesn't. Once again try to pay attention. Kawhi scored as much as parker and more than duncan but he was more efficient than both. He was also much better defensively which is kind of half the game last time i checked.

And right on que just like nick wright i see you highlighted lebrons efficiency stats that series. Like him i know you dont understand the game but ill try my hardest to help you. Lebron shot 55% or whatever that seriez but he shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi so what does that mean? It means lebron did most of his damage against other players. If you watched the series yiu would have saw that the heat knew this and they did everything they could do set screens to get a switch to get a worse defender on lebron. Sounds easy enough and they were successful in doing so but in the process that extra 5 to 7 sexonds that it takes to make that happen totally threw off tbe heats offense. Theres only so much time on the clock. Once they got it over half and got the switch they wanted there wasnt much time left to work the offense.

Why do you think that in a year where the league average was above 100, lebron with a super team couldnt score 100 points in not one game? Once again stfu dude you dont know what your talking about.

[Bronbron23]

Jesus, you're dumb.

Parker and even Duncan were more valuable than Kawhi in that series.

But congrats to Kawhi on limiting LeBron to 28/8/4/2 on 57/52/79! :roll: Phucking r-tard.

Damn, LeKang might have had a more deserving series to win FMVP despite the loss. GOAT.

Nope wrong again dummy. You cant just use stats to fit your narrative and then ignore them when it doesn't. Once again try to pay attention. Kawhi score as much as parker and more than duncan but he was more efficient than both. He was also much better defensively which is kind of half the game last time i checked.

And right on que just like nick wright i see you highlighted lebrons efficiency stats that series. Like him i know you dont understand the game but ill try my hardest to help you. Lebron shot 55% or whatever that series but he shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi so what does that mean? It means lebron did most of his damage against other players. If you watched the series yiu would have saw that the heat knew this and they did everything they could do set screens to get a switch to get a worse defender on lebron. Sounds easy enough and they were successful in doing so but in the process that extra 5 to 7 sexonds that it takes to make that happen totally threw off the heats offense. Theres only so much time on the clock. Once they got it over half and got the switch they wanted there wasnt much time left to work the offense.

Why do you think that in a year where the league average was above 100, lebron with a super team couldnt score 100 points in not one game? Once again stfu dude you dont know what your talking about.

[999Guy]

Kawhi has a leg that’s rotting. His prime won’t be too long I don’t think.

He’ll have a D-Wade type career. Maybe less hollow. Maybe a CP3 type career.

KD blew out his non-explosion Achilles. He’s getting old anyway but he’ll come back 90+% IMO.

Kawhi was definitely better peak for peak though. No question.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kd is definitely better. Kawhi coukd catch him though. Kd wont win again and kawhi coukd win 1 or 2 more befoe hes done. 2 more chips and fmvps and hes better in my book

What about personal achievements? Where would you rank them if they finish with something like this:

Kawhi: 5 rings, 4 FMVP's, 0 MVP's, 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 7 total all-NBA teams
KD: 2 rings, 2 FMVP's, 1 MVP, 7 all-NBA 1st teams, 12 total all-NBA teams

Let's suppose KD, like today, also is miles ahead statistically. Does the extra winning elevate Kawhi ahead of KD? There is no right or wrong answer (these are personal lists after all)--I am just curious how much some people weight winning.


wasnt arguing that kawhi is better just that he deserved the fmvp in 2014

I agree with you. I just think it is notable the two players being compared here faced off once in their primes and KD got the better of Kawhi. He is judged so often against LeBron that this match up against the 2nd best player of the era is forgotten.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Luka actually got hurt. Kawhi is the only player who--as a condition of joining a team--demands to take a game off nearly weekly while healthy. Allegedly he has bad knees--but his fans and advocates in the media must not take that claim seriously because they forecast Kawhi dominating for as far as the eye can see. A legitimately hurt player would be viewed on a year-to-year basis, no?

Kawhi expects deep playoff runs every year until he's at least 35 years old, so he takes some games off against mostly bad teams. I don't see the problem with that. Kawhi has led playoffs in BPM or VORP every year of his prime 16, 17, 2020. Durant has had a much longer prime and he still never led playoffs in one advanced stat. Durant also has basically sat out two entire years, 2020 and season he played 27 games.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Which started a week into the season. :lol

We have heard it said he missed games only against bad teams in 2019. Here are the games he missed:

@WAS
@MIL
@LAL
@UTA
@CHI
@ATL
@LAC
@GSW
@PHI
IND
PHO (missed four games in a row here through @ IND)
MEM
SAC
@IND
@ATL
WAS
ORL
@DET
@MIA
NYK
@NYK
@CHI

It seems he only needs "load management" while on the road. :confusedshrug: As far as team strength goes, he missed them against the gamut of teams, consistent with missing such a large number of games. This included missing games against conference rivals like Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Indiana or a juggernaut like the Warriors--games his team in theory would need him for.

Raptors load management games:

Wizards
Bucks
Lakers
Jazz
Bulls
Hawks
Clippers
Warriors
76ers
Pacers
Suns
Grizzles
Kings
Pacers
Hawks
Wizards
Magic
Pistons
Heat
Knicks
Knicks
Bulls

7 total playoff teams. So its like he sat out 7 games that he shouldn't have, that's not bad at all.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi Leonard 36 game playoff stretch from 2016-present: 27 points 63% TS, 28% win shares, 12BPM, 29 PER.

Did Durant ever have even close to a 36 game stretch like this while he was in Thunder before he jumped on a team that won a title without him.

[Bronbron23]

What about personal achievements? Where would you rank them if they finish with something like this:

Kawhi: 5 rings, 4 FMVP's, 0 MVP's, 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 7 total all-NBA teams
KD: 2 rings, 2 FMVP's, 1 MVP, 7 all-NBA 1st teams, 12 total all-NBA teams

Let's suppose KD, like today, also is miles ahead statistically. Does the extra winning elevate Kawhi ahead of KD? There is no right or wrong answer (these are personal lists after all)--I am just curious how much some people weight winning.



I agree with you. I just think it is notable the two players being compared here faced off once in their primes and KD got the better of Kawhi. He is judged so often against LeBron that this match up against the 2nd best player of the era is forgotten.

I think if the scenario ends up similar to the one u gave id give the edge to kawhi but i tend to place less empasis on stats than chips and eye test. Stats are important though forsure. I admit it be a tough call though.

[Whoah10115]

I disagree although manu played good as usual. Hes one of the most underrated players ever imo.

And i wasn't arguing thar kawhi is better. Kd is definitely better. Kawhi coukd catch him though. Kd wont win again and kawhi coukd win 1 or 2 more befoe hes done. 2 more chips and fmvps and hes better in my book

I know. We can disagree, that's cool. The second part is more an answer to OP than directly to you.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, it is a misleading TP from Wright and a black mark on LeBron that he got stifled to that extent by Kawhi and Iggy (the next year). He doesn't have the array of skills or a go to move to fallback on when the chips are down against great defenders like KAJ, MJ etc. did.

Kawhi did a great job on LeBron. What about against, KD, though? They played each other in 2016 in the WCSF with both players in their primes, healthy and on contenders. San Antonio was a 67 win team, OKC a 55 win team (59 win pace with KD--still not close to 67). Here is what happened:

Durant 29/7/4 on 60% TS
Kawhi 23/7/4 on 55% TS

The "help" excuse doesn't fly. The best players in the series by game score were (in order): Aldridge, Durant, Westbrook, Kawhi, Adams, Green, Parker, Ibaka, Kanter, Manu. So a basically even split. As for the second stars on each team:


Aldridge 27/9/2 on 59% TS
Westbrook 25/7/11 on 48% TS

Westbrook with the +9 in assists per game. That's the help, Kawhi/Durant aren't known as elite passers. 2016 WCF Durant couldn't even average 3 assists.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi expects deep playoff runs every year until he's at least 35 years old

Which explodes the whole "my knee is shot so I am the first superstar who needs to take a game a week off" shtick.


Durant has had a much longer prime and he still never led playoffs in one advanced stat


Durant also has basically sat out two entire years, 2020 and season he played 27 games.

Durant has produced a lot more in the PO. KD has 11 elite seasons; Kawhi only 4. Their career PO numbers aren't close because Kawhi was a role player for so long.

The Kawhi stuff is based on him be great for a relatively short time. Why is T Mac docked for not having longevity but Kawhi is not? Rings? T Mac wasn't going from 1 seed to 1 seed.


I think if the scenario ends up similar to the one u gave id give the edge to kawhi but i tend to place less empasis on stats than chips and eye test. Stats are important though forsure. I admit it be a tough call though.

Got it. I don't place as much emphasis on rings because it is team dependent, luck dependent but we all have our own criteria (which makes this place interesting). If KD and Klay are healthy Kawhi loses in the finals and people would be talking about "1-2" and "0-1" as "the man" etc. Or if Kawhi is traded to a team that isn't already a 59 win team.

It would be interesting to see Kawhi on a team that isn't stacked but he refused to go to the Clippers without getting a second superstar (to what already was a 48 win team). Can Kawhi raise a team's floor like most top ATG? We know he can help bring a ceiling to an already good team but if you put Kawhi on 30 win team what happens? Could he do what LeBron did with teams like the 07' and 18' Cavs, for instance?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Which explodes the whole "my knee is shot so I am the first superstar who needs to take a game a week off" shtick.





Durant has produced a lot more in the PO. KD has 11 elite seasons; Kawhi only 4. Their career PO numbers aren't close because Kawhi was a role player for so long.

The Kawhi stuff is based on him be great for a relatively short time. Why is T Mac docked for not having longevity but Kawhi is not? Rings? T Mac wasn't going from 1 seed to 1 seed.



Got it. I don't place as much emphasis on rings because it is team dependent, luck dependent but we all have our own criteria (which makes this place interesting). If KD and Klay are healthy Kawhi loses in the finals and people would be talking about "1-2" and "0-1" as "the man" etc. Or if Kawhi is traded to a team that isn't already a 59 win team.

It would be interesting to see Kawhi on a team that isn't stacked but he refused to go to the Clippers without getting a second superstar (to what already was a 48 win team). Can Kawhi raise a team's floor like most top ATG? We know he can help bring a ceiling to an already good team but if you put Kawhi on 30 win team what happens? Could he do what LeBron did with teams like the 07' and 18' Cavs, for instance?

Kawhi has had a great of a 36 game playoff stretch as any player in NBA history. You can't rank him yet because his career isn't over. Taking off vs 7 playoff teams in regular season isn't significant enough to knock him for it. Kawhi wasn't a role player in 2014 finals, nobody who leads a title team in GmSc is a role player. He was already an all-star level player by 2014 due to his defensive impact.

As far as carrying teams, what happened in 2nd round series 2019 when Kawhi was facing 3 all stars and a 21PPG scorer on 76ers? Lowry the supposed veteran all-star on the team decided to turn into Eric Snow with 17% usage and 25% from three averages.

7 teammates who shot worse then 45%? in that series and also don't forget to check the game 7 2019 2nd round usage

Kawhi Leonard 48.1 usage%
Kyle Lowry 17.7 usage %
Siakam 16.3 usage %
Gasol 7.9 usage %

Look how scared shitless every player on raptors was in that game 7 vs 76ers besides Leonard. 48% usage are you kidding me?

[Roundball_Rock]

He was a 14/6/2 player in 14'. Yeah, he got hot for 3 games (another reason FMVP is an overrated award) but that doesn't change what he was for the totality of the season/PO.


Kawhi has had a great of a 36 game playoff stretch

That's the problem, even if we accept your premise that those games are as great as anyone (unlikely). The legends he gets compared to didn't do it for 36 games across two seasons--they did it for 7, 8, 10, or even more years. Let's look at the numbers, though.

Playoff Numbers

Kawhi 17'-19': 30/9/4 64% TS (36 games over two playoff runs)
Kareem 70'-80': 30/16/4 57% TS (94 games over nine playoff runs)
Jordan 87'-96': 34/7/6 58% TS (132 games over nine playoff runs)
LeBron 06'-18': 29/9/7 58% TS (239 games over thirteen playoff runs)
Wilt 60'-67': 30/27/5 52% TS (67 games over seven runs)
Durant 11'-19': 29/8/4 60% TS (133 games over eight runs)

Let's relax and see if Kawhi can do it consistently. His career playoff numbers are 20/8/2. We also have to remember that 17' run of 12 games included Kawhi getting hurt in Game 1 against the #2 Warriors' defense (Spurs had the #1 defense). He put those numbers up against D'Antoni's #18 defense and the Grizzlies #7 defense.


7 teammates who shot worse then 45%? in that series and also don't forget to check the game 7 2019 2nd round usage

Kawhi Leonard 48.1 usage%
Kyle Lowry 17.7 usage %
Siakam 16.3 usage %
Gasol 7.9 usage %


That's the problem with cherry picking a single game (or even series). How about the finals?

Siakam 20/8/4
Lowry 16/4/7
FVV 14/3/2
Gasol 12/7/3
Ibaka 11/5/1

Klay 26/5/4 (missed a game, injured late in G6 while torching TOR)
Green 13/11/9
Iggy 9/5/4
Cousins 8/5/2
Looney 6/3/1

KD played only 11 minutes.

It is a team sport. It wasn't just Kawhi in the finals and that same team is 46-18 despite having injuries across the roster. Anunoby is their only key player who has been healthy.

[Clippersfan86]

Still KD, but Kawhi with a couple more rings and MVP level seasons can catch him. KD individually just got started way earlier in his career (full blown superstar by year 2 or 3). The value of KD's rings though are WAY less considering he joined the most stacked team of all time arguably. If Kawhi can win a ring or two with the Clippers who have never won it before with a few 25/5/5/2 steals type seasons.... while KD has a drop off from the blown Achilles, I see Kawhi surpassing him within 3 seasons.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He was a 14/6/2 player in 14'. Yeah, he got hot for 3 games (another reason FMVP is an overrated award) but that doesn't change what he was for the totality of the season/PO.



That's the problem, even if we accept your premise that those games are as great as anyone (unlikely). The legends he gets compared to didn't do it for 36 games across two seasons--they did it for 7, 8, 10, or even more years. Let's look at the numbers, though.

Playoff Numbers

Kawhi 17'-19': 30/9/4 64% TS (36 games over two playoff runs)
Kareem 70'-80': 30/16/4 57% TS (94 games over nine playoff runs)
Jordan 87'-96': 34/7/6 58% TS (132 games over nine playoff runs)
LeBron 06'-18': 29/9/7 58% TS (239 games over thirteen playoff runs)
Wilt 60'-67': 30/27/5 52% TS (67 games over seven runs)
Durant 11'-19': 29/8/4 60% TS (133 games over eight runs)

Let's relax and see if Kawhi can do it consistently. His career playoff numbers are 20/8/2. We also have to remember that 17' run of 12 games included Kawhi getting hurt in Game 1 against the #2 Warriors' defense (Spurs had the #1 defense). He put those numbers up against D'Antoni's #18 defense and the Grizzlies #7 defense.



That's the problem with cherry picking a single game (or even series). How about the finals?

Siakam 20/8/4
Lowry 16/4/7
FVV 14/3/2
Gasol 12/7/3
Ibaka 11/5/1

Klay 26/5/4 (missed a game, injured late in G6 while torching TOR)
Green 13/11/9
Iggy 9/5/4
Cousins 8/5/2
Looney 6/3/1

KD played only 11 minutes.

It is a team sport. It wasn't just Kawhi in the finals and that same team is 46-18 despite having injuries across the roster. Anunoby is their only key player who has been healthy.

Kawhi led spurs in GmSc in two different series and was the leader on team in VORP during the 2014 title run. Can you name me one more player on a title team that did that and was just a "role player" as you say. Give me one other example? That proves Kawhi's impact that year.

All time greats generally stay near the same level during their entire prime. Kawhi from 2016 playoffs is averaging 27 points, 63% TS, 12 BPM, 28% W/S 48

goat level numbers pretty much. This is Kawhi and I'm expecting him to stay on this pace until at least 2026.

That 76ers series for raptors 2019 was the toughest challenge for raptors, not Warriors. The Raptors had a 116 offensive rating vs warriors for the series and a shot away from beating them in 5 games. 76ers was the biggest test and all raptors crap themselves that entire series, especially game 7.

The closeout game 6 vs Bucks:

Kawhi: 40.6 % usage
Siakam: 25.6 % usage
Lowry 14.8% usage
Gasol 5.8% usage

Another carry job from Kawhi. When the going got tough it was raptors who folded and Kawhi who had to carry them.

[Roundball_Rock]

14/6/2. That is what Kawhi was in 14'. That isn't "carrying" anything. That team won with an ensemble cast of future HOF'ers.

The Kawhi stuff always gets back to relying on him being great for a brief period.

Player X: 30/7/6 52% TS (35 games over 6 playoffs)
Player Y: 29/6/5 55% TS (170 games over 11 playoffs)

So pretty equal, right? Except for that little detail of 170 games versus 35 games. Yet no one mentions "Player X" (T Mac) in these discussions despite that high peak.


goat level numbers pretty much

Let's cherry pick 2 consecutive playoff runs for everyone else like is done with Kawhi.

Kawhi 17', 19': 30/9/4 64% TS (36 games)
Kareem 74', 77': 33/17/5 61% TS (27 games)
Jordan 89', 90': 36/7/7 60% TS (33 games)
Wilt 62', 64': 35/26/3 53% TS (24 games)
Shaq 00', 01': 31/15/3 56% TS (39 games)

There are levels to greatness. Kawhi isn't on the GOAT of GOAT's level, even if you cherry pick. His best attribute is TS %--but he plays in a soft defensive era where 55-56% in the postseason is the floor for superstars, not the ceiling as it was in past eras where defense existed. Let's cherry pick some lesser ATG's.

Kawhi 17', 19': 30/9/4
Durant 13', 14': 30/9/5
Durant 18', 19': 30/7/5
Healthy KD 19': 35/5/5 (games he didn't get hurt in)
Barry 70', 71': 37/11/4
Baylor 61', 62': 38/17/4
Wade 09', 10': 31/5/6
West 65', 66': 37/6/6
Havlicek 68', 69': 26/9/7
T Mac 01', 02': 32/6/7
Barkley 89', 90': 25/15/5
KG 02', 03': 26/17/5

I can keep going on. The point is if you cherry pick an ATG's best 2-3 years they will all look great, even if not a GOAT-level legend. What Kawhi did is hardly unprecedented. We have seen plenty of great runs over 2-3 playoff appearances.

If KD, Klay don't get hurt we aren't even having this conversation.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

14/6/2. That is what Kawhi was in 14'. That isn't "carrying" anything. That team won with an ensemble cast of future HOF'ers.

The Kawhi stuff always gets back to relying on him being great for a brief period.

Player X: 30/7/6 52% TS (35 games over 6 playoffs)
Player Y: 29/6/5 55% TS (170 games over 11 playoffs)

So pretty equal, right? Except for that little detail of 170 games versus 35 games. Yet no one mentions "Player X" (T Mac) in these discussions despite that high peak.



Let's cherry pick 2 consecutive playoff runs for everyone else like is done with Kawhi.

Kawhi 17', 19': 30/9/4 64% TS (36 games)
Kareem 74', 77': 33/17/5 61% TS (27 games)
Jordan 89', 90': 36/7/7 60% TS (33 games)
Wilt 62', 64': 35/26/3 53% TS (24 games)
Shaq 00', 01': 31/15/3 56% TS (39 games)

There are levels to greatness. Kawhi isn't on the GOAT of GOAT's level, even if you cherry pick. His best attribute is TS %--but he plays in a soft defensive era where 55-56% in the postseason is the floor for superstars, not the ceiling as it was in past eras where defense existed. Let's cherry pick some lesser ATG's.

Kawhi 17', 19': 30/9/4
Durant 13', 14': 30/9/5
Durant 18', 19': 30/7/5
Healthy KD 19': 35/5/5 (games he didn't get hurt in)
Barry 70', 71': 37/11/4
Baylor 61', 62': 38/17/4
Wade 09', 10': 31/5/6
West 65', 66': 37/6/6
Havlicek 68', 69': 26/9/7
T Mac 01', 02': 32/6/7
Barkley 89', 90': 25/15/5
KG 02', 03': 26/17/5

I can keep going on. The point is if you cherry pick an ATG's best 2-3 years they will all look great, even if not a GOAT-level legend. What Kawhi did is hardly unprecedented. We have seen plenty of great runs over 2-3 playoff appearances.

If KD, Klay don't get hurt we aren't even having this conversation.

Kawhi not only has the efficiency but he has the advanced numbers on his side. 29 PER and 12 BPM stats are goat level numbers you only see from a Jordan or LeBron type.

Kawhi is also doing it in 2nd round east finals and finals, so you can't compare him to guys like Mcgrady or 2009/2010 Wade.

In the two closeout games vs Bucks/76ers, Kawhi averages 44.3% usage

44% usage? They had to be carried by Kawhi to close series in the east.

As far as the Klay injury excuses, you can do that with a lot of champions.

2003 spurs - Dirk injured in WCF
2004 - Sam Cassell injured WCF
2009 - KG was injured and couldn't defend title
2015 - Irving and Love injured, Chris Paul also injured
2016 - Draymond suspension
2017 - Kawhi injured WCF
2018- Chris Paul injured WCF

Are we supposed to take all these titles away too? Injury is part of the game. Kawhi would of beat warriors in 2017 if he was healthy. Healthy Kawhi hasn't lost a series since Duncan retired and he became clear cut first option scorer.

[Fudge]

Nope wrong again dummy. You cant just use stats to fit your narrative and then ignore them when it doesn't. Once again try to pay attention. Kawhi scored as much as parker and more than duncan but he was more efficient than both. He was also much better defensively which is kind of half the game last time i checked.

And right on que just like nick wright i see you highlighted lebrons efficiency stats that series. Like him i know you dont understand the game but ill try my hardest to help you. Lebron shot 55% or whatever that seriez but he shot under 40% when gaurded by kawhi so what does that mean? It means lebron did most of his damage against other players. If you watched the series yiu would have saw that the heat knew this and they did everything they could do set screens to get a switch to get a worse defender on lebron. Sounds easy enough and they were successful in doing so but in the process that extra 5 to 7 sexonds that it takes to make that happen totally threw off tbe heats offense. Theres only so much time on the clock. Once they got it over half and got the switch they wanted there wasnt much time left to work the offense.

Why do you think that in a year where the league average was above 100, lebron with a super team couldnt score 100 points in not one game? Once again stfu dude you dont know what your talking about.
Bro,
You're living in some sort of fantasy land.

Duncan, Parker, AND LeBron were all more valuable than awkward Kawhi all series. Deal with it! Before I smack you in the chin.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi not only has the efficiency but he has the advanced numbers on his side. 29 PER and 12 BPM stats are goat level numbers you only see from a Jordan or LeBron type.

Efficiency is on every modern star's side--that is a reflection of soft defenses. Kawhi is the king--but any "efficiency" numbers for a 10's or 20's player can't be taken at face value relative to past legends.

Yes (although you are rounding 11.4 BPM since 16' to "12"), but you are comparing three playoff runs (not even three seasons), i.e., 36 playoff games against players who did it for a decade. His best numbers are from 17' where he missed out on playing against the best opposing defense due to injury. A lot of players' numbers would get a boost if you limited the sample to the first two rounds against (generally) weaker defenses.


As far as the Klay injury excuses, you can do that with a lot of champions.

True--but look at your list. Duncan, Kobe, Curry, LeBron, Durant (as well as other HOF like Parker, Gasol, etc.). None of these players has their entire legacy revolving around one playoff run. KD, Klay getting injured somehow makes Kawhi a better player?

[guy]

Right now, its not even debatable, KD easily. He's just been an elite player for much longer. He was literally the 2nd best player in the league in Kawhi's rookie year. Kawhi was never really on that level until 2017.

With that said, KD's best days are behind him. He might literally be done soon. The achilles is the worst injury you can get. If he recovers into a 20/6/5 player, that should be considered a relative success. On the other hand, Kawhi is just turning 29 years old, and he's been the best player in the league IMO since he left San Antonio, and health permitted, which is a big if, he could potentially continue that level of play for another 4-5 years and that could be the catalyst for a potential dynastic run for the Clippers. So its definitely possible Kawhi overtakes him. But hard to tell.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points.

The problem I see with Kawhi surpassing KD is he needs everything to break for him for the next 4-5 years just to equal KD's resume since there is a large gap between the two players to date. I suppose if Kawhi finishes with the same personal accolades but helms a dynasty with the Clippers then he will get past KD but this requires 1) his allegedly shot knees to hold up 2) everything that goes into being a dynasty to fall into place. Some people consider the Warriors the GOAT dynasty and even they lost twice in that five year run.

Another thing to watch with the Clippers is PG. He declined this year from being a MVP level player last year. Is this his new level or was it due to injuries? If he is at a lower level, and he turns 30 next year, then the Clippers won't be the same team people projected when he and Kawhi went there.

Giannis will be a big factor in this as well. Does he leave the Bucks to join another superstar like Kawhi, KD, LeBron all did before him?

Ultimately, the argument for KD is he accomplished more as a player; for Kawhi it revolves around team success so he is more dependent on external factors.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Efficiency is on every modern star's side--that is a reflection of soft defenses. Kawhi is the king--but any "efficiency" numbers for a 10's or 20's player can't be taken at face value relative to past legends.

Yes (although you are rounding 11.4 BPM since 16' to "12"), but you are comparing three playoff runs (not even three seasons), i.e., 36 playoff games against players who did it for a decade. His best numbers are from 17' where he missed out on playing against the best opposing defense due to injury. A lot of players' numbers would get a boost if you limited the sample to the first two rounds against (generally) weaker defenses.



True--but look at your list. Duncan, Kobe, Curry, LeBron, Durant (as well as other HOF like Parker, Gasol, etc.). None of these players has their entire legacy revolving around one playoff run. KD, Klay getting injured somehow makes Kawhi a better player?

That's not true about 2010's players efficiency, how come James Harden's efficiency in the playoffs always drops if its so easy in today's era? You take the average TS from today and you compare it to Kawhi. The average TS in 2020 is about 55% and Kawhi is jumping to 62% on playoff runs.

Kawhi only has one title run at MVP level but he's only 28 years old, other all time greats only had 1 title run or less at 27 years old.

If you include 2016 playoffs, kawhi has a 46 game playoff sample size of putting up 27 points per game, 63% TS, 29 PER, 124 offensive rating? Still goat level and that's extended to 46 games. Imagine if he has a 20 game playoff run this year as well putting up those numbers? It will be already a 66 game playoff sample size of GOAT level playoff numbers, that's plenty of sample size at his age.

[Phoenix]

Right now, its not even debatable, KD easily. He's just been an elite player for much longer. He was literally the 2nd best player in the league in Kawhi's rookie year. Kawhi was never really on that level until 2017.

With that said, KD's best days are behind him. He might literally be done soon. The achilles is the worst injury you can get. If he recovers into a 20/6/5 player, that should be considered a relative success. On the other hand, Kawhi is just turning 29 years old, and he's been the best player in the league IMO since he left San Antonio, and health permitted, which is a big if, he could potentially continue that level of play for another 4-5 years and that could be the catalyst for a potential dynastic run for the Clippers. So its definitely possible Kawhi overtakes him. But hard to tell.

I don't think the decline if any will be 'that' deep. He may lose a bit of mobility which will affect his slashing but he's still 6'10 ( or equal to a 7 footer when you consider his wingspan) with an all-time elite jumpshot. He's still going to be able to get his shot against basically anyone, he's still going to be able to post on the wing and comfortably shoot up over anyone short of Giannis. I feel like the essence of what makes him so uniquely unstoppable isn't impacted by the Achilles.

[Roundball_Rock]

Harden makes the point: he has a 57% TS in the playoffs and he is roasted for it in today's era. In the 90's Barkley was the most efficient superstar and his playoff TS % was 58%. So in that era 58% was top of the class; this era 57% gets you labeled a playoff choker.

The bottom line is even Kawhi's biggest advocates start the clock at 2016. 2016, 2017, 2019. We cant use 2018 for anything since he skipped the season. 2020 playoffs haven't been played. So his big advocates are relying on 3 playoff runs--the legends he is being compared to had a decade worth of playoff runs. You compared him to Kareem. Kareem was elite for 17 seasons, not 4.

The fact that Kawhi is being compared to Kareem, LeBron, Jordan, or even Durant shows how much helium he got for winning with a 59 win team against an injured Warriors.


I feel like the essence of what makes him so uniquely unstoppable isn't impacted by the Achilles.

Yeah, and even if he ceases to be a superstar and instead posts several more top 10 and top 15 seasons, that is still relevant when comparing him to someone like Kawhi who has only four of those type of seasons to date. Kawhi basically needs 1) everything to break his way 2) KD to produce absolutely nothing going forward to match his resume.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Harden makes the point: he has a 57% TS in the playoffs and he is roasted for it in today's era. In the 90's Barkley was the most efficient superstar and his playoff TS % was 58%. So in that era 58% was top of the class; this era 57% gets you labeled a playoff choker.

The bottom line is even Kawhi's biggest advocates start the clock at 2016. 2016, 2017, 2019. We cant use 2018 for anything since he skipped the season. 2020 playoffs haven't been played. So his big advocates are relying on 3 playoff runs--the legends he is being compared to had a decade worth of playoff runs. You compared him to Kareem. Kareem was elite for 17 seasons, not 4.

The fact that Kawhi is being compared to Kareem, LeBron, Jordan, or even Durant shows how much helium he got for winning with a 59 win team against an injured Warriors.



Yeah, and even if he ceases to be a superstar and instead posts several more top 10 and top 15 seasons, that is still relevant when comparing him to someone like Kawhi who has only four of those type of seasons to date. Kawhi basically needs 1) everything to break his way 2) KD to produce absolutely nothing going forward to match his resume.

Harden's TS is dropping in playoffs by 6% how does that make your point? That makes my point that playoff basketball is harder to be more efficient, which makes Kawhi's 46 game stretch very impressive.

Kawhi's last 46 playoff games from ages 24-27: 27 points, 63% TS, 30 PER, 124 offensive rating, 12 BPM

Durant 48 game playoff stretch from ages 24-27: 30 points, 56% TS, 23 PER, 110 offensive rating, 6 BPM

They were the same exact ages from 24-27 and Durant's only playing 2 more games.

And if you want to throw in Harden's last 44 playoff games: 29 points, 56% TS, 24 PER, 109 offensive rating.

Also take in consideration that Kawhi is easily the best defender and guarded Giannis during a backdoor sweep. Kawhi wins by a landslide. Its "so easy" to be efficient in 2010's but a 4 time scoring champion Durant is at just 56% TS to Kawhi's 63% TS when playing at the same ages.

As far as Kawhi vs Kareem, kawhi in 2017 playoff run matched Kareem's 1980 playoff run by VORP despite playing way less minutes. Kawhi's 2019 title playoff run can compare to Kareem 1971 title run. Kawhi's 2014 title run is equal to Kareem's 1987 title run. And then Kareem has the rest of the 1970s when he wasted himself besides 1971? And 1982-1989 stretch he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Harden's TS is dropping in playoffs by 6% how does that make your point?

It is a 4% drop for his prime. Here is how:

90's SF's:

Wilkins 86’-94’: 50.9% (54.4%)
Pippen 91’-98’: 52.1% (54.6%)
Pippen 94’: 52.1% (54.4%)
Hill 95’-00’: 51.6% (54.4%)

10's SF's:

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)

So SF's today are 5-10% more efficient than the most efficient 90's superstar SF.

The most efficient 90's superstars in the playoffs:

Barkley 87’-95’: 58.3% (62.6%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)
Jordan 87’-96’: 57.7% (58.6%)

Prime Hakeem, MJ are less than 1% more efficient than prime Harden yet Harden is considered a choker by many. That shows how much efficiency is inflated in this weak defensive era, as does the inflation of SF's today versus those in the 90's.

Even the decline issue is reflective of weak defense. In the 90's every superstar except Hakeem declined in the PO; today over half a dozen superstars improve in the PO. Players aren't more clutch--the differences between PO defenses and RS defenses is blurred as defense as a whole gets watered down.


Kawhi's 2019 title playoff run can compare to Kareem 1971 title run

:facepalm


And then Kareem has the rest of the 1970s when he wasted himself besides 1971?

Yes, 5 MVP's is wasting a decade (as many as MJ and Russell in their entire careers and more than LeBron, Wilt).

Kawhi did nothing for half a decade if you want to talk "waste." 12/6/2 for four seasons (KAJ 31/16/4 during the same time frame). KAJ didn't have a season like that until his 20th season.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It is a 4% drop for his prime. Here is how:

90's SF's:

Wilkins 86’-94’: 50.9% (54.4%)
Pippen 91’-98’: 52.1% (54.6%)
Pippen 94’: 52.1% (54.4%)
Hill 95’-00’: 51.6% (54.4%)

10's SF's:

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)

So SF's today are 5-10% more efficient than the most efficient 90's superstar SF.

The most efficient 90's superstars in the playoffs:

Barkley 87’-95’: 58.3% (62.6%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)
Jordan 87’-96’: 57.7% (58.6%)

Prime Hakeem, MJ are less than 1% more efficient than prime Harden yet Harden is considered a choker by many. That shows how much efficiency is inflated in this weak defensive era, as does the inflation of SF's today versus those in the 90's.

Even the decline issue is reflective of weak defense. In the 90's every superstar except Hakeem declined in the PO; today over half a dozen superstars improve in the PO. Players aren't more clutch--the differences between PO defenses and RS defenses is blurred as defense as a whole gets watered down.



:facepalm



Yes, 5 MVP's is wasting a decade (as many as MJ and Russell in their entire careers and more than LeBron, Wilt).

Kawhi did nothing for half a decade if you want to talk "waste." 12/6/2 for four seasons (KAJ 31/16/4 during the same time frame). KAJ didn't have a season like that until his 20th season.

I just showed you a example of a 4 time scoring champion Kevin Durant having a -7 TS% drop in playoffs to regular season from ages 24-27. How come the playoff defense wasn't watered down for him then?

Lebron, Kawhi, Durant are all much better scorers then Wilkins, Pippen, Hill in any era? So I don't see your point there. You go by TS relative to the league, not relative to a handful of superstars.

Durant's scoring TS didn't increase until he played on Warriors and had it easy. While with Thunder, Durant had a consistent TS decline in playoffs just like Harden does with Rockets.

Kareem in the 1970s had a lot of regular season success but did very little in playoffs outside of 1971.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2017-18 55.5%
2016-17 55.3%
2015-16 54.1%
2014-15 53.4%
2013-14 54.1%
2012-13 53.5%
2011-12 52.7%
2010-11 54.2%
2009-10 54.3%
2008-09 54.5%
2007-08 54.0%
2006-07 54.1%
2005-06 53.5%
2004-05 53.0%
2003-04 51.6%
2002-03 51.9%
2001-02 52.0%
2000-01 51.8%
1999-00 52.3%
1998-99 51.1%
1997-98 52.4%
1996-97 53.6%
1995-96 54.2%
1994-95 54.3%
1993-94 52.8%
1992-93 53.6%
1991-92 53.2%
1990-91 53.4%
1989-90 53.6%

There's your TS from 1990-2018.

Its about 54% from 2010-2018.

That doesn't explain why Kawhi is jumping to 63% all of a sudden in the playoffs. Its his shot selection, discipline and flat out being unguardable.

[Roundball_Rock]

You repeatedly have to resort to small sample sizes, implicitly conceding the weakness of your case. Durant is a 60% TS shooter in the playoffs from 2010-2019. No need to cherry pick. If Durant shot 60% TS in the 90's he would easily be the most efficient superstar of that era.


Lebron, Kawhi, Durant are all much better scorers then Wilkins, Pippen, Hill in any era?

Let's try other positions (Wilkins was as good a scorer as any second-tier ATG scorer BTW).

SG's

Jordan 87’-96’: 57.7% (58.6%)
Drexler 88’-95’: 54.1% (55.3%)

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

Harden is called a choker for shooting 57% in this era.

PG's

Payton 94’-02’: 53.5% (53.7%)
Penny 95’-97’: 57.2% (58.9%)
Stockton 88’-98’: 57.3% (62.0%)
T. Hardaway 91’-98’: 52.9% (53.8%)

Curry 14’-19’: 61.5% (64.2%)
Westbrook 11’-19’: 51.1% (53.6%)
Westbrook 17’-18’: 50.2% (54.0%)
Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Lillard 14’-19’: 54.4% (57.6%)
Irving 13’-19’: 56.0% (57.1%)
Irving 19’: 48.8% (59.2%)
Lowry 15’-19’: 55.1% (57.7%)

Lowry is another one called a choker. 55%, which exceeds Payton and Hardaway easily.

PF's

Barkley 87’-95’: 58.3% (62.6%)
Malone 88’-99’: 53.1% (59.1%)

Giannis 17’-19’: 58.0% (61.3%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Bosh 06’-16’: 55.3% (57.7%)
Aldridge 12’-19’: 51.8% (54.5%)


C's

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)

Embiid 18’-19’: 54.1% (58.4%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)

It is pretty obvious efficiency went through the roof in today's era due to rules changes and weaker defenses. We see it in position after position.


You go by TS relative to the league, not relative to a handful of superstars.

You don't compare superstars to role players, given the difference in volume. You compare to contemporaries at their position of a similar level.


Durant's scoring TS didn't increase until he played on Warriors and had it easy. While with Thunder, Durant had a consistent TS decline in playoffs just like Harden does with Rockets.

These guys all had an increase:

George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)

George is considered a choker to by some. 57% and an increase. 57% isn't much these days...

These guys maintained:

Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

These guys all remained above 55%:

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)
Curry 14’-19’: 61.5% (64.2%)
Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Irving 13’-19’: 56.0% (57.1%)
Lowry 15’-19’: 55.1% (57.7%)
Giannis 17’-19’: 58.0% (61.3%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Bosh 06’-16’: 55.3% (57.7%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

Basically the entire list, with a handful of exceptions, shot 55% or higher. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's cherry pick 3 years with other legends from today's game.

KD: 64%
George: 59%
LeBron: 62%
Curry: 62%
Paul: 61%
Giannis: 58%
Harden: 60%
Howard: 63%

I could go on. In this tissue soft defensive era, every legend posts great efficiency numbers--especially if you cherry pick small sample sizes.

Let's see what Kawhi's numbers look like in 5 years...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Let's cherry pick 3 years with other legends from today's game.

KD: 64%
George: 59%
LeBron: 62%
Curry: 62%
Paul: 61%
Giannis: 58%
Harden: 60%
Howard: 63%

I could go on. In this tissue soft defensive era, every legend posts great efficiency numbers--especially if you cherry pick small sample sizes.

Let's see what Kawhi's numbers look like in 5 years...

If you put any legend on a team with Curry/Klay, they will automatically have higher TS due to the goat level shooting/space that Curry and Klay provide. Huge asterisk on Durant's warriors run because of this. Look at his thunder run when he had a normal roster built around him and his TS drops hard from his regular season? Every single year with thunder it dropped besides 2012.

Harden's prime starts when he plays for rockets, his TS also takes a decline

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You repeatedly have to resort to small sample sizes, implicitly conceding the weakness of your case. Durant is a 60% TS shooter in the playoffs from 2010-2019. No need to cherry pick. If Durant shot 60% TS in the 90's he would easily be the most efficient superstar of that era.



Let's try other positions (Wilkins was as good a scorer as any second-tier ATG scorer BTW).

SG's

Jordan 87’-96’: 57.7% (58.6%)
Drexler 88’-95’: 54.1% (55.3%)

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

Harden is called a choker for shooting 57% in this era.

PG's

Payton 94’-02’: 53.5% (53.7%)
Penny 95’-97’: 57.2% (58.9%)
Stockton 88’-98’: 57.3% (62.0%)
T. Hardaway 91’-98’: 52.9% (53.8%)

Curry 14’-19’: 61.5% (64.2%)
Westbrook 11’-19’: 51.1% (53.6%)
Westbrook 17’-18’: 50.2% (54.0%)
Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Lillard 14’-19’: 54.4% (57.6%)
Irving 13’-19’: 56.0% (57.1%)
Irving 19’: 48.8% (59.2%)
Lowry 15’-19’: 55.1% (57.7%)

Lowry is another one called a choker. 55%, which exceeds Payton and Hardaway easily.

PF's

Barkley 87’-95’: 58.3% (62.6%)
Malone 88’-99’: 53.1% (59.1%)

Giannis 17’-19’: 58.0% (61.3%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Bosh 06’-16’: 55.3% (57.7%)
Aldridge 12’-19’: 51.8% (54.5%)


C's

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)

Embiid 18’-19’: 54.1% (58.4%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)

It is pretty obvious efficiency went through the roof in today's era due to rules changes and weaker defenses. We see it in position after position.



You don't compare superstars to role players, given the difference in volume. You compare to contemporaries at their position of a similar level.



These guys all had an increase:

George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)

George is considered a choker to by some. 57% and an increase. 57% isn't much these days...

These guys maintained:

Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

These guys all remained above 55%:

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)
Curry 14’-19’: 61.5% (64.2%)
Paul 08’-16’: 58.4% (58.5%)
Irving 13’-19’: 56.0% (57.1%)
Lowry 15’-19’: 55.1% (57.7%)
Giannis 17’-19’: 58.0% (61.3%)
Davis 14’-19’: 59.3% (58.7%)
Bosh 06’-16’: 55.3% (57.7%)
Howard 07’-14’: 61.3% (60.5%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)

Basically the entire list, with a handful of exceptions, shot 55% or higher. :lol

All this for a 1% drop?

90's has a 53% TS average
2010's has a 54% TS average

If 2010's defense was as bad as you say, the TS gap would be much bigger then a 1% gap. More advanced coaching and offensive playbooks in 2010's, yet its a 1% gap from 2010's and 90's? You sound like an old man yelling at the clouds.

[Shogon]

Honestly I'm not even going to read this thread but Kawhi is going to be capped in the all time rankings by the fact that he will retire with a big fat ZERO regular season MVPs.

[Gougou]

I am a Kawhi and Raps fan. Kawhi had a great playoff run last year, probably best ever, but just based on that playoff run alone puts him more ahead of KD is such a shame, KD individuals talent is still more ahead of Kawhi, Kawhi is better than him as a teammate and playoff performance, and that defense, that's it.

[knicksman]

Honestly I'm not even going to read this thread but Kawhi is going to be capped in the all time rankings by the fact that he will retire with a big fat ZERO regular season MVPs.

For bron stans. coz most of them have low standards so they think regular season MVPs are more valuable than legit rings.

[knicksman]

this thread is proof why bron stans think lebron has a legit case against jordan. These guys are just too dumb.

[Roundball_Rock]

Harden's prime starts when he plays for rockets, his TS also takes a decline

That's what I used: 2013-2019. He does decline--but that is because he is coming from 61%. 57% is comparable to his peers:

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)


If you put any legend on a team with Curry/Klay, they will automatically have higher TS due to the goat level shooting/space that Curry and Klay provide

Klay shot 59.7% with KD hurt in 19', 55.0% with KD in the same playoffs. People make assumptions without checking the receipts.


Look at his thunder run when he had a normal roster built around him

Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka is not a normal roster.


All this for a 1% drop?

People can read the numbers for the superstars of each era for themselves. So what if scrubs today shoot better than past scrubs? The superstar numbers speak for themselves. When the ceiling for the 90's becomes a level considered choking in the 10's that says it all. Harden would be toasted for shooting 57% in the 90's but today with everyone eating against soft defenses that is considered subpar by many (including you).

[Bronbron23]

Which explodes the whole "my knee is shot so I am the first superstar who needs to take a game a week off" shtick.





Durant has produced a lot more in the PO. KD has 11 elite seasons; Kawhi only 4. Their career PO numbers aren't close because Kawhi was a role player for so long.

The Kawhi stuff is based on him be great for a relatively short time. Why is T Mac docked for not having longevity but Kawhi is not? Rings? T Mac wasn't going from 1 seed to 1 seed.



Got it. I don't place as much emphasis on rings because it is team dependent, luck dependent but we all have our own criteria (which makes this place interesting). If KD and Klay are healthy Kawhi loses in the finals and people would be talking about "1-2" and "0-1" as "the man" etc. Or if Kawhi is traded to a team that isn't already a 59 win team.

It would be interesting to see Kawhi on a team that isn't stacked but he refused to go to the Clippers without getting a second superstar (to what already was a 48 win team). Can Kawhi raise a team's floor like most top ATG? We know he can help bring a ceiling to an already good team but if you put Kawhi on 30 win team what happens? Could he do what LeBron did with teams like the 07' and 18' Cavs, for instance?

Yeah rings can be influenced by different things but so can stats. Things like Era's and team systems can impact a players stats. Players who play in ball dominant systems wouldn't put up the numbers they do in systems that move on and off ball more like the spurs and warriors. Put lebron on mj's bulls teams in the 90's where the game was slower and more half court where the bulls used alot of screens and cuts off the post and bron dosnt put up the stats he's been putting up. He'd be more around mj's numbers but with a little less ppg.

As far as kawhi's impact all you have to do is look at his last year with the spurs and then the year after when he barely played and then left. They won 61 games with him and were on there way to giving the warriors a tough matchup in the playoffs to winning 47 games the year after. I agree though that he dosnt have lebrons impact as far as taking a 30 win team deep in the playoffs. Weird thing about bron though is that hes one of the best at making a bad team good but hes kind of average at making a good team great.

And no if warriors dont get riddled with injuries kawhi and the raps dont win that finals but thats how it goes sometimes. Theres been a couple of ifs with brons chips too. 2016 steph coming off of a bad injury and dray getting suspended. that lucky play with miami and ray allen hitting that 3. Personally i dont pay any attention to that but if your gonna use ifs for kawhi you have to do the same for bron too.

[Bronbron23]

Bro,
You're living in some sort of fantasy land.

Duncan, Parker, AND LeBron were all more valuable than awkward Kawhi all series. Deal with it! Before I smack you in the chin.

Lebron yes. Duncan and parker no.

And your bish ass aint smaking nobody's chin. Stop playin. And i know your a clown because only clowns talk tough on the internet.

[Shogon]

For bron stans. coz most of them have low standards so they think regular season MVPs are more valuable than legit rings.

Name a single top 10 player of all time that has 0 MVPs... I'll wait.

Durant probably isn't going to crack that threshold, but he has an outside shot of doing so. Kawhi doesn't have a shot at that at all. Even if he was good enough at his peak, and I don't think that he is, his health won't permit it.

You're retarded and your understanding of English is less than that of a third grader's understanding.

You don't know basketball and it's time to stop posting.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah rings can be influenced by different things but so can stats. Things like Era's and team systems can impact a players stats. Players who play in ball dominant systems wouldn't put up the numbers they do in systems that move on and off ball more like the spurs and warriors

True.


As far as kawhi's impact all you have to do is look at his last year with the spurs and then the year after when he barely played and then left. They won 61 games with him and were on there way to giving the warriors a tough matchup in the playoffs to winning 47 games the year after.

He has an impact as a superstar. The question is how much? We have two scenarios around the same time involving the players in the OP.

Spurs with Kawhi: 61 wins, lost WCF
Spurs w/out Kawhi: 47 wins, lost first round
Thunder with KD: 55 wins, lost WCF (59 win pace with KD, 3-7 minus him)
Thunder w/out KD: 47 wins, lost first round

So very similar. The difference is OKC added Oladipo in 17' and the Spurs added no one in 18' when Kawhi refused to play. In the second season sans both players, OKC added PG (lost Oladipo but a net plus) and SAS got DeRozan for Kawhi. So OKC added more talent to a team that already had peak Westbrook. Yet the results were the same: 48 wins and a first round loss for both teams.

You can interpret these as implying equal impact but I read it as KD having slightly more.

It is true KD's impact on the Warriors was much smaller (even compared to Curry's) but the same is true with Kawhi with the Raptors. A wash again IMO.


I agree though that he dosnt have lebrons impact as far as taking a 30 win team deep in the playoffs. Weird thing about bron though is that hes one of the best at making a bad team good but hes kind of average at making a good team great.

Yup. I am surprised this doesn't come up more often. Floor and ceiling are different things. LeBron arguably is the GOAT at raising floors but he also arguably provides the lowest ceiling of any top 10 ATG (other than Hakeem, if you have Hakeem top 10). KD and Kawhi couldn't go to a 30 win team and carry them to contention and 50+ wins. However, KD and Kawhi can join already good teams and take them to the next level. If you put LeBron on GS or Toronto he likely screws up the chemistry, system, etc. and the results are less than the sum of their parts.


And no if warriors dont get riddled with injuries kawhi and the raps dont win that finals but thats how it goes sometimes. Theres been a couple of ifs with brons chips too

True, but I think it should be factored in. Look at KD vs. Kawhi. Injuries swung a title between the two. The recurring theme for the Kawhi side is team success whereas the KD side is saying he simply was a better player. If KD has 3 rings, Kawhi 1 are we even having this conversation?

People forget KD possibly lost rings due to injuries in OKC too. 13' it was Westbrook, 14' it was Ibaka.

[Bronbron23]

True.



He has an impact as a superstar. The question is how much? We have two scenarios around the same time involving the players in the OP.

Spurs with Kawhi: 61 wins, lost WCF
Spurs w/out Kawhi: 47 wins, lost first round
Thunder with KD: 55 wins, lost WCF (59 win pace with KD, 3-7 minus him)
Thunder w/out KD: 47 wins, lost first round

So very similar. The difference is OKC added Oladipo in 17' and the Spurs added no one in 18' when Kawhi refused to play. In the second season sans both players, OKC added PG (lost Oladipo but a net plus) and SAS got DeRozan for Kawhi. So OKC added more talent to a team that already had peak Westbrook. Yet the results were the same: 48 wins and a first round loss for both teams.

You can interpret these as implying equal impact but I read it as KD having slightly more.

It is true KD's impact on the Warriors was much smaller (even compared to Curry's) but the same is true with Kawhi with the Raptors. A wash again IMO.



Yup. I am surprised this doesn't come up more often. Floor and ceiling are different things. LeBron arguably is the GOAT at raising floors but he also arguably provides the lowest ceiling of any top 10 ATG (other than Hakeem, if you have Hakeem top 10). KD and Kawhi couldn't go to a 30 win team and carry them to contention and 50+ wins. However, KD and Kawhi can join already good teams and take them to the next level. If you put LeBron on GS or Toronto he likely screws up the chemistry, system, etc. and the results are less than the sum of their parts.



True, but I think it should be factored in. Look at KD vs. Kawhi. Injuries swung a title between the two. The recurring theme for the Kawhi side is team success whereas the KD side is saying he simply was a better player. If KD has 3 rings, Kawhi 1 are we even having this conversation?

People forget KD possibly lost rings due to injuries in OKC too. 13' it was Westbrook, 14' it was Ibaka.

Well the kd kawhi scenario are a little different because when spurs lost in the wcf kawhi was hurt. Not sure what would of happened if he dosnt get hurt. Kawhi gave the warriors a ton of problems on both sides although my gut says warriors win regardless.

Almost everything about the kd and kawhi comparisons says kd is better but in a tough finals or wcf series id probably take kawhi. He s just tougher and more of an alpha imo. He has a different mentality than kd. I think kd going to the warriors in the first place says everything that you need to know about his mentality.

[Bronbron23]

Name a single top 10 player of all time that has 0 MVPs... I'll wait.

Durant probably isn't going to crack that threshold, but he has an outside shot of doing so. Kawhi doesn't have a shot at that at all. Even if he was good enough at his peak, and I don't think that he is, his health won't permit it.

You're retarded and your understanding of English is less than that of a third grader's understanding.

You don't know basketball and it's time to stop posting.

Kawhi is an anomaly though. He dosnt seem to care as much about the regular season as much as the playoffs. I mean just look at the recent mvps. Hes legit better than all of them other than kd which is debatable. Hes better than harden, westbrook and steph. They all had better regular seasons and maybe even playoffs in general but i dont think anybody would take any of those guys over kawhi in a tough finals series. At the end of the day it really comes down to whis the best player on the biggest stage and there's not a whole lot of guys in the history of the game id take over kawhi. He has almost as much offensive impact as any of them but most likely more defensive impact than any of them with the exception of a handful to where its close on that end.

[Roundball_Rock]

Almost everything about the kd and kawhi comparisons says kd is better but in a tough finals or wcf series id probably take kawhi. He s just tougher and more of an alpha imo. He has a different mentality than kd. I think kd going to the warriors in the first place says everything that you need to know about his mentality.


Is Kawhi much different, though? He went to a 59 win team and then demanded the Clippers be stacked too. He wouldn't have signed if they didn't bring a second superstar (on top of Williams, Harrell). KD is the worst in this but Kawhi and LeBron aren't innocent either IMO.


I mean just look at the recent mvps. Hes legit better than all of them other than kd which is debatable. Hes better than harden, westbrook and steph

Curry was being compared to LeBron just a few years ago, now it is Kawhi. Kawhi is benefiting a ton from recency bias lifting him, getting 100% of the credit for the Raptors winning even after they proved themselves without him, and several other stars receding in the limelight. Curry, Durant have been hurt all year. Westbrook is now a sidekick. That leaves Kawhi and LeBron from that 2010's group.

I suspect those guys will be ranked all-time as LeBron, Durant, Curry, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook in that order but it is fluid behind LeBron.

The most recent all-time ranking was from ESPN and these guys went: LeBron #2, Curry #13, Durant #14, Kawhi #25, Harden #32, Westbrook #42. So Kawhi well behind Curry, Durant and Harden closer to Kawhi than Kawhi is to Durant/Curry.

These all-time rankings are useful because the rankers have to apply the same criteria to all players and doing the exercise limits recency bias since you are considering players from 70+ years.


He has almost as much offensive impact as any of them but most likely more defensive impact than any of them with the exception of a handful to where its close on that end.

The big issue with him is he has only been that guy for a couple seasons. The other players he keeps getting compared to these days did it consistently for a long time. If you have to draft 10 elite years of KD or 4 elite years of Kawhi, you are taking KD easily.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That's what I used: 2013-2019. He does decline--but that is because he is coming from 61%. 57% is comparable to his peers:

DeRozan 14’-19’: 50.3% (54.2%)
Harden 13’-19’: 56.9% (61.0%)
Klay 15’-19’: 56.6% (58.9%)
Wade 06’-12’: 56.6% (57.1%)



Klay shot 59.7% with KD hurt in 19', 55.0% with KD in the same playoffs. People make assumptions without checking the receipts.



Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka is not a normal roster.



People can read the numbers for the superstars of each era for themselves. So what if scrubs today shoot better than past scrubs? The superstar numbers speak for themselves. When the ceiling for the 90's becomes a level considered choking in the 10's that says it all. Harden would be toasted for shooting 57% in the 90's but today with everyone eating against soft defenses that is considered subpar by many (including you).

Durant is the one that benefited from Curry/Klay. Durant didn't start being efficient in playoffs like Kawhi until he played with the two greatest shooters ever Curry/Klay. Doing it with Curry\Klay is like cheating the game, they won a title without Durant and are providing GOAT level shooting/spacing for him. Curry is getting game planned for by defense just as much as Durant. Its not the same as Kawhi with Spurs/Raptors getting all the attention. Nobody is as efficient as Kawhi in the playoffs and that's my point.

Kawhi from 2015 - present in playoffs averages 27 points 62% TS

Can you take a playoff 53 game sample size from Harden's prime averaging 27 points 62% TS?

Can you take a 53 game sample size from Durant's thunder days when he's averaging 27 points 62% TS?

Harden/Durant have 6 scoring titles but still can't score like Kawhi in playoffs. Rockets Harden or Thunder Durant don't have a 53 game playoff sample size of 27ppg 62% TS.

[Bronbron23]

Is Kawhi much different, though? He went to a 59 win team and then demanded the Clippers be stacked too. He wouldn't have signed if they didn't bring a second superstar (on top of Williams, Harrell). KD is the worst in this but Kawhi and LeBron aren't innocent either IMO.



Curry was being compared to LeBron just a few years ago, now it is Kawhi. Kawhi is benefiting a ton from recency bias lifting him, getting 100% of the credit for the Raptors winning even after they proved themselves without him, and several other stars receding in the limelight. Curry, Durant have been hurt all year. Westbrook is now a sidekick. That leaves Kawhi and LeBron from that 2010's group.

I suspect those guys will be ranked all-time as LeBron, Durant, Curry, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook in that order but it is fluid behind LeBron.

The most recent all-time ranking was from ESPN and these guys went: LeBron #2, Curry #13, Durant #14, Kawhi #25, Harden #32, Westbrook #42. So Kawhi well behind Curry, Durant and Harden closer to Kawhi than Kawhi is to Durant/Curry.

These all-time rankings are useful because the rankers have to apply the same criteria to all players and doing the exercise limits recency bias since you are considering players from 70+ years.



The big issue with him is he has only been that guy for a couple seasons. The other players he keeps getting compared to these days did it consistently for a long time. If you have to draft 10 elite years of KD or 4 elite years of Kawhi, you are taking KD easily.

yes i think kd going to warriors is much worse. They were a championship team in their prime. Raps were good but they were never truly a contender until thet got kawhi. Lebron joining wade and bosh was definitely similar ill give u that.

As far as curry yeah he and others may be ranked higher on espn type lists mainly because of there mvps but they're not better players. I dont think anyone who knows the game and isnt biased would say steph is better than kawhi. They have similar offensive impact but kawhi has a way bigger impact defensively. Put kawhi on that 2016 warriors team and they might have swept lebron. Defensively they would of been a nightmare.

Ill give u the last point. Kawhi resume just isnt long enough. Theres plenty of players that id have to put above him all time even though hes better then they ever were. Id say kawhi is still fairly young and has time to add to his resume but im not so sure. Hes looked pretty slow and old the last couple of years. Im not sure how many elite years he has.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

yes i think kd going to warriors is much worse. They were a championship team in their prime. Raps were good but they were never truly a contender until thet got kawhi. Lebron joining wade and bosh was definitely similar ill give u that.

As far as curry yeah he and others may be ranked higher on espn type lists mainly because of there mvps but they're not better players. I dont think anyone who knows the game and isnt biased would say steph is better than kawhi. They have similar offensive impact but kawhi has a way bigger impact defensively. Put kawhi on that 2016 warriors team and they might have swept lebron. Defensively they would of been a nightmare.

Ill give u the last point. Kawhi resume just isnt long enough. Theres plenty of players that id have to put above him all time even though hes better then they ever were. Id say kawhi is still fairly young and has time to add to his resume but im not so sure. Hes looked pretty slow and old the last couple of years. Im not sure how many elite years he has.

Wade actually had an all time great playoff run and won a finals MVP before LeBron joined him.

Lowry or Siakam have never came close to that.

Kawhi was also forced to join clippers so he can compete with LeBron/Davis. During free agency, LeBron was recruiting Kawhi. If you have LeBron/Davis on Lakers recruiting you, why the hell would you go to clippers without another superstar? That's asking for a death wish. Kawhi was just adapting to the way LeBron wants to win (stack the deck).

[Roundball_Rock]

Durant is the one that benefited from Curry/Klay. Durant didn't start being efficient in playoffs like Kawhi until he played with the two greatest shooters ever Curry/Klay

Let's see how he does in Brooklyn without those GOAT level shooters.


Curry is getting game planned for by defense just as much as Durant

Westbrook was similar too. People forget it but you can go back to some ISH threads from the middle part of the decade after Harden left, before KD did. There was some talk that OKC had the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league.


yes i think kd going to warriors is much worse. They were a championship team in their prime. Raps were good but they were never truly a contender until thet got kawhi. Lebron joining wade and bosh was definitely similar ill give u that.

On 1-10 with 10 being the worst I would give KD a 10, LeBron an 8, Kawhi a 6. Toronto would be one thing but then he demanded that the Clippers be stacked. If they didn't bring PG he allegedly was going to go to the Lakers. If he is the things people say he is--alpha alpha, a competitor who wants to win by himself, a legend who can carry teams to titles, etc.--why did he need PG? Lou Williams and Harrell weren't enough? That team won 48 games with zero superstars.


As far as curry yeah he and others may be ranked higher on espn type lists mainly because of there mvps but they're not better players

I think it mainly is those are greatness lists, not necessarily best player lists. So players who were elite for 8-10 years will get a big edge on Kawhi at this point. MVP's are one metric. As someone noted, none of the top 10 AT do not have at least 1 MVP. Yet if you give Kawhi another MVP he still has the issue of being great for only 4 years to date.


Ill give u the last point. Kawhi resume just isnt long enough. Theres plenty of players that id have to put above him all time even though hes better then they ever were. Id say kawhi is still fairly young and has time to add to his resume but im not so sure. Hes looked pretty slow and old the last couple of years. Im not sure how many elite years he has.

Agreed. How healthy or unhealthy he really is will be huge. If his knees are as bad as he and his people claim, he won't last. If it is all a charade to take 20% of the season off, then he can have another 4-5 superstar seasons in him.

[Bronbron23]

Let's see how he does in Brooklyn without those GOAT level shooters.



Westbrook was similar too. People forget it but you can go back to some ISH threads from the middle part of the decade after Harden left, before KD did. There was some talk that OKC had the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league.



On 1-10 with 10 being the worst I would give KD a 10, LeBron an 8, Kawhi a 6. Toronto would be one thing but then he demanded that the Clippers be stacked. If they didn't bring PG he allegedly was going to go to the Lakers. If he is the things people say he is--alpha alpha, a competitor who wants to win by himself, a legend who can carry teams to titles, etc.--why did he need PG? Lou Williams and Harrell weren't enough? That team won 48 games with zero superstars.



I think it mainly is those are greatness lists, not necessarily best player lists. So players who were elite for 8-10 years will get a big edge on Kawhi at this point. MVP's are one metric. As someone noted, none of the top 10 AT do not have at least 1 MVP. Yet if you give Kawhi another MVP he still has the issue of being great for only 4 years to date.



Agreed. How healthy or unhealthy he really is will be huge. If his knees are as bad as he and his people claim, he won't last. If it is all a charade to take 20% of the season off, then he can have another 4-5 superstar seasons in him.

i think kawhi wanting pg was just out of necessity. He knew bron had ad and would stack the deck given the chance so he had to get another scorer. If he wanted to take the easiest route like kd he could of just joined the lakers with bron. That would of guaranteed a chip but been a weak move. I thinks its alpha as hell that he said nah and not only went to the same town bit the same arena as bron. Its a fine line. You want to win the right way and not stack the deck to much but at the same time you have to have legit help to win. Bron took it a bit far in miami, kd did the same in gs. Kawhi did it a bit this year but not as bad. I think the rankins you gave are pretty much right on.

As far as all time list its tricky because resume and longevity play a role. Penny hardaway is one of the best point gaurds ive ever saw but injuries robbed him of an atg career. Theres plenty of point gaurds who will go down better all time that werent near as good. Kawhi although more accomplished then penny could suffer a similar fate if his body dosnt hold up.

[RRR3]

Durant has literally been playing at an ATG level for more than twice as long as Kawhi. Durant was 1st team All-NBA the same season when Kawhi was a freshman in college FFS. Considering Kawhi's injury history, I'm not sure how many ATG seasons he has left. Durant is much, much, MUCH higher on the GOAT list, and I doubt that changes. It truly sucks KD hurt his achilles, he was likely going to be making a case for top 10 all time. Hopefully he will still be able to do that.

[Bronbron23]

Wade actually had an all time great playoff run and won a finals MVP before LeBron joined him.

Lowry or Siakam have never came close to that.

Kawhi was also forced to join clippers so he can compete with LeBron/Davis. During free agency, LeBron was recruiting Kawhi. If you have LeBron/Davis on Lakers recruiting you, why the hell would you go to clippers without another superstar? That's asking for a death wish. Kawhi was just adapting to the way LeBron wants to win (stack the deck).

Yeah lebron and kd both took it a bit far although i thought kd was the worst jist because warriors were already an established champion in there prime. Bron joining wade and bosh in miami was definitely stacking the deck but you never know what gonna happen when you just throw guys together from scratch like that.

And i agree kawhi didn't really have a choice. Bron and the lakers were trying to get as many good pieces as they could. If kawhi was gonnq compete he was definitely gonna need some help.

[Bronbron23]

Durant has literally been playing at an ATG level for more than twice as long as Kawhi.

True but he hasnt accomplished a whole lot more though. He has more individual offensive accomplishments but kawhi has more defensive ones. They both have 2 chips and 2 fmvps but kawhis are more impressive. Kd is definitely better but its not by much. One more chip and fmvp from kawhi and its pretty even.

[RRR3]

True but he hasnt accomplished a whole lot more though. He has more individual offensive accomplishments but kawhi has more defensive ones. They both have 2 chips and 2 fmvps but kawhis are more impressive. Kd is definitely better but its not by much. One more chip and fmvp from kawhi and its pretty even.
No, that's not how it works, or else Bill Walton would be considered greater than Patrick Ewing. I don't think some of you realize how low Kawhi is on an objective, consistent GOAT list. If we ranked by peaks, T-Mac is in the top 25 easily.

[Bronbron23]

No, that's not how it works, or else Bill Walton would be considered greater than Patrick Ewing. I don't think some of you realize how low Kawhi is on an objective, consistent GOAT list. If we ranked by peaks, T-Mac is in the top 25 easily.
Its more complicated that. If kawhi gets one more hed only have 1 more fmvp and chip than kd similar to the scenario you gave but nobody really holds alot of weight to the 2 chips that kd has. They were weak as hell. If kawhi gets 3 its really like he has twice as many as kd. If kd dosnt make that weak ass move hed be at 0 chips and would go down in the game similar to a karl malone, charles barkley or more recently a allen iverson, russell westbrook or James harden. Theyd all have 2 chips too if they jumped on the warriors bandwagon.

And tmac wouldnt be a top 25. Scoring alot of empty points but not winning games dosnt put you there.

[RRR3]

Its more complicated that. If kawhi gets one more hed only have 1 more fmvp and chip than kd similar to the scenario you gave but nobody really holds alot of weight to the 2 chips that kd has. They were weak as hell. If kawhi gets 3 its really like he has twice as many as kd. If kd dosnt make that weak ass move hed be at 0 chips and would go down in the game similar to a karl malone, charles barkley or more recently a allen iverson, russell westbrook or James harden. Theyd all have 2 chips too if they jumped on the warriors bandwagon.

And tmac wouldnt be a top 25. Scoring alot of empty points but not winning games dosnt put you there.
T-Mac led one of the worst rosters ever to the playoffs at his peak...

I'm not sure what naming Barkley or Malone is supposed to prove since both of them are very far ahead of Kawhi on the GOAT list.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

T-Mac led one of the worst rosters ever to the playoffs at his peak...

I'm not sure what naming Barkley or Malone is supposed to prove since both of them are very far ahead of Kawhi on the GOAT list.

Kawhi gives us a 46 playoff game sample size of posting Jordan level numbers 30 PER, 12 BPM, 27% win shares and so on. This is in multiple 2nd round series, conference finals series, and even the finals. A guy like Tracy Mcgrady has never gave us anything close to that, the only playoff sample size we have from is the 1st round.

Kawhi also plays at all-star level in 2014, 2015 playoff that adds some career value, as well as his multiple defensive player of the year awards which is rare for a non big.

All Kawhi needs to do is play like this until he's at least 32-33 years old and we will have a 8-9 year prime sample size like we do with most legends. Until then you can't give him a fair enough evaluation.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Its more complicated that. If kawhi gets one more hed only have 1 more fmvp and chip than kd similar to the scenario you gave but nobody really holds alot of weight to the 2 chips that kd has. They were weak as hell. If kawhi gets 3 its really like he has twice as many as kd. If kd dosnt make that weak ass move hed be at 0 chips and would go down in the game similar to a karl malone, charles barkley or more recently a allen iverson, russell westbrook or James harden. Theyd all have 2 chips too if they jumped on the warriors bandwagon.

And tmac wouldnt be a top 25. Scoring alot of empty points but not winning games dosnt put you there.
Kawhi won a fmvp as a role player scoring like 15ppg ... just shut up dude. Your takes are so bad.

[RRR3]

Kawhi gives us a 46 playoff game sample size of posting Jordan level numbers 30 PER, 12 BPM, 27% win shares and so on. This is in multiple 2nd round series, conference finals series, and even the finals. A guy like Tracy Mcgrady has never gave us anything close to that, the only playoff sample size we have from is the 1st round.

Kawhi also plays at all-star level in 2014, 2015 playoff that adds some career value, as well as his multiple defensive player of the year awards which is rare for a non big.

All Kawhi needs to do is play like this until he's at least 32-33 years old and we will have a 8-9 year prime sample size like we do with most legends. Until then you can't give him a fair enough evaluation.
Kawhi wouldn't have won shit on the 01-04 Magic, so I'm really not sure what you point is. Prime T-Mac would have won a ring on the 2013 and 2014 Spurs, so I'm not really sure what your point is. That Kawhi is better? Sure, good for him. He's still nowhere near Durant on the GOAT list.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi wouldn't have won shit on the 01-04 Magic, so I'm really not sure what you point is. Prime T-Mac would have won a ring on the 2013 and 2014 Spurs, so I'm not really sure what your point is. That Kawhi is better? Sure, good for him. He's still nowhere near Durant on the GOAT list.

Mcgrady has never proved shit in playoffs. Kawhi has a goat level title run, massive difference.

Durant doesn't even have 1 respectable title run. He was down 2-3 to Rockets even with Curry/Klay/Dray on his team. Once Durant has any where close to the title run that Kawhi had, we can talk.

As far as the senior citizen clinic that you think was so great in the 2013/2014 spurs, how many playoff series did Duncan win in the 3 years (2009-2011) leading up to drafting Kawhi?

[RRR3]

Mcgrady has never proved shit in playoffs. Kawhi has a goat level title run, massive difference.

Durant doesn't even have 1 respectable title run. He was down 2-3 to Rockets even with Curry/Klay/Dray on his team. Once Durant has any where close to the title run that Kawhi had, we can talk.

As far as the senior citizen clinic that you think was so great in the 2013/2014 spurs, how many playoff series did Duncan win in the 3 years (2009-2011) leading up to drafting Kawhi?
McGrady's prime lasted 5 seasons and 4 of them were with absolutely no help, so weird argument. Again, I'm not sure what you think Kawhi is accomplishing with Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek. It's interesting that you want to act like Kawhi was better than Duncan in 2013, when Duncan made 1st team All-NBA.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

McGrady's prime lasted 5 seasons and 4 of them were with absolutely no help, so weird argument. Again, I'm not sure what you think Kawhi is accomplishing with Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek. It's interesting that you want to act like Kawhi was better than Duncan in 2013, when Duncan made 1st team All-NBA.

Kawhi has 4 great years with a much more wider playoff sample size then Mcgrady. We know for fact that Kawhi can play great past the 1st round but for Mcgrady we will never know. Mcgrady should of demanded a trade or extended his prime. Mcgrady should forever be compared to guys like Grant Hill, not guys with title runs.

2013 Duncan was best player up until finals but finals Kawhi was better. The spurs still didn't give Kawhi the ball enough so they lost. In 2014 finals, they gave Kawhi the ball more and he smoked them.

[Bronbron23]

Kawhi won a fmvp as a role player scoring like 15ppg ... just shut up dude. Your takes are so bad.

And lebron lost the fmvp to a role player that scored 18 pts a game with a stacked squad at that. Just shut up dude. Your takes are so much worse.

[Bronbron23]

T-Mac led one of the worst rosters ever to the playoffs at his peak...

I'm not sure what naming Barkley or Malone is supposed to prove since both of them are very far ahead of Kawhi on the GOAT list.

Yeah they are but kawhi isnt done yet and the goat list takes into account longevity and full resumes. Kawhi is better than both though even with a shorter resume. There isnt a reasonable person alive that would take barkley or malones career over kawhi's

[RRR3]

I don't know how GOAT lists work
:lol

[Bronbron23]

:lol

man you out here cutting and pasting lol. I havnt had that much to drink. Or have i lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

And lebron lost the fmvp to a role player that scored 18 pts a game with a stacked squad at that. Just shut up dude. Your takes are so much worse.

The point is that Kawhi's rings are weak and meaningless, whereas Durant was the leader of the best team in basketball history and averaged 33/9/5 on insane efficiency in the finals

Durant beats Kawhi in peak play, finals play, and longevity stats.... it's not close either

[houston]

durant of course

[HoopsNY]

The point is that Kawhi's rings are weak and meaningless, whereas Durant was the leader of the best team in basketball history and averaged 33/9/5 on insane efficiency in the finals

Durant beats Kawhi in peak play, finals play, and longevity stats.... it's not close either

Kawhi's rings are weak and meaningless? Are you forgetting that KD joined a 73 win team with three all-star players or is that being conveniently lost in the conversation?

[ImKobe]

Kawhi's longevity scares me, I have to go with KD because he's had a better career so far and will still likely have better longevity due to his size & shooting ability.

[Roundball_Rock]

KD vs. Kawhi, Kareem vs. Kawhi, now T. Mac vs. Kawhi. Team, team, team. This is not an individual sport. Kawhi may be the luckiest superstar in history and people are acting like his rangz came in a vacuum.



And lebron lost the fmvp to a role player

That goes to how much of a joke FMVP is: the real FMVP often does not win because it has to go to a player on the winning team. Iggy winning it was a joke when LeBron was putting up 36/13/9. FMVP is by far the most overrated award in sports.


Yeah they are but kawhi isnt done yet and the goat list takes into account longevity and full resumes

Except for Kawhi. ESPN had him at #25, between Robinson and Wade. Their resumes crush his at this point but the Kawhi hype train has escaped the laws of gravity, at least for now. He wasn't far behind those guys either. Barkley was #23 and K. Malone #17.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kawhi's rings are weak and meaningless? Are you forgetting that KD joined a 73 win team with three all-star players or is that being conveniently lost in the conversation?

Its about performance. Everything else is irrelevant

Kawhi scored 16ppg and was literally a role player when he won his 1st ring.

Durant was the leader of the best team in history scoring 35+ in the finals (shaq dominance)

You idiots always get caught up in how players get to a team when its literally irrelevant when evaluating performance.

[HoopsNY]

Its about performance. Everything else is irrelevant

Kawhi scored 16ppg and was literally a role player when he won his 1st ring.

Durant was the leader of the best team in history scoring 35+ in the finals (shaq dominance)

You idiots always get caught up in how players get to a team when its literally irrelevant when evaluating performance.

Grow up tough boy. No one insulted you, at least I didn't, so at least speak with some manners.

Secondly, Kawhi was the best player on his team and played the best in that series. Not to mention, the series was tied 1-1 and Kawhi took over in games 3-4-5. So how he was he "just a role player?"

It's either you pick one topic or you don't. You can't talk about rings being "weak" and then tout individual performance. Kawhi didn't jump ship to a 73 win team MVPs and All-NBA level players already on the team, KD did.

Performance is greatly affected by the team around you. This isn't to say that KD is incapable. But when you have multiple all-stars on your roster, then the defensive focus and pressure is much less.

[sdot_thadon]

As of this moment, I got Kd. What Kawhi does these next few seasons will ultimately determine his legacy. I don't really care for the 2014 ring as any kind of statement for Kawhi, he was like 4th option averaging 12 points a game for that team. He just had a nice series and a you guarded lebron james participation award like Iggy got, difference is he elevated to star status afterwards. Kd was a bonafide star already at that point of his career.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Grow up tough boy. No one insulted you, at least I didn't, so at least speak with some manners.

Secondly, Kawhi was the best player on his team and played the best in that series. Not to mention, the series was tied 1-1 and Kawhi took over in games 3-4-5. So how he was he "just a role player?"

It's either you pick one topic or you don't. You can't talk about rings being "weak" and then tout individual performance. Kawhi didn't jump ship to a 73 win team MVPs and All-NBA level players already on the team, KD did.

Performance is greatly affected by the team around you. This isn't to say that KD is incapable. But when you have multiple all-stars on your roster, then the defensive focus and pressure is much less.
Kawhi in '14 was a 12ppg role player the entire season and his team waltzed to the best record in the NBA. Durant at 22 was a 30ppg superstar. Duranr carried his team deep in the playoffs every year of his early 20's only ever losing to the eventual champions

The comparison is apples to mangos.

You're talking about talent affecting performance when Kawhi has been on stacked teams his entire career carrying minimal load and winning rings scoring 12pgg, while KD has put up huge numbers every season and has been the 1st option every year of his career.

You failed to make a point, try again

[Roundball_Rock]

Not to mention, the series was tied 1-1 and Kawhi took over in games 3-4-5. So how he was he "just a role player?"

The same way Iggy did the same thing with his team down 2-1 the next year. This is another reason FMVP is overrated: the sample size is extremely small. 3 good games? Holding the other guy to 36/13/9? FMVP! Playoff MVP like hockey has would be a lot more legitimate.

[tpols]

some people prefer to look at simply how good a player was.

i had kawhi in fantasy and had to flip him for brad beal because his rest days were killing me so bad, but i cant deny how great of a player he is.

it's like if you took jordan and pippen and made them into one player. in the playoffs hes proven he can do 30 ppg on 120 ORTG with elite defense and great clutch.

you just cant beat that....

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi in '14 was a 12ppg role player the entire season and his team waltzed to the best record in the NBA. Durant at 22 was a 30ppg superstar. Duranr carried his team deep in the playoffs every year of his early 20's only ever losing to the eventual champions

The comparison is apples to mangos.

You're talking about talent affecting performance when Kawhi has been on stacked teams his entire career carrying minimal load and winning rings scoring 12pgg, while KD has put up huge numbers every season and has been the 1st option every year of his career.

You failed to make a point, try again

Warriors won a title and 73 wins without Durant.
How many playoff series did spurs did old Duncan win in 2009-2011 the three years leading up to drafting Kawhi?

At least Kawhi had the balls to decline LeBron recruitment to the Lakers. Durant joined Draymond after losing to him like a gutless worm, then Draymond cusses him out during the season.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rockball with a decent thread :applause:

Kawhi if he can remain healthy. Big if, but I like his game better in the postseason. Kawhi is also better and more consistent on defense.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The same way Iggy did the same thing with his team down 2-1 the next year. This is another reason FMVP is overrated: the sample size is extremely small. 3 good games? Holding the other guy to 36/13/9? FMVP! Playoff MVP like hockey has would be a lot more legitimate.

Iggy didn't dominate offensively like Kawhi did and Iggy didn't lead his team in GmSc like Kawhi did.

2014 finals was looking like it was going to be a long dragged out finals after it was tied 1-1, then Kawhi got the ball and wiped the floor with Miami in the biggest finals win in NBA history.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Three years leading into drafting Kawhi: 2009-2011 spurs won a total of 7 playoff games

That's 2 playoff games a year! They were nothing close to 2015/2016 warriors before Durant signed with them.

[Roundball_Rock]

Iggy didn't dominate offensively like Kawhi did

Kawhi 18/6/2
Iggy 16/6/4

You do realize Iggy generated more offense than Kawhi did--offense is more than scoring. Plus Iggy was playing with the MVP and Klay. He didn't need to score as much as Kawhi yet nonetheless basically matched him.

[Bronbron23]

The point is that Kawhi's rings are weak and meaningless, whereas Durant was the leader of the best team in basketball history and averaged 33/9/5 on insane efficiency in the finals

Durant beats Kawhi in peak play, finals play, and longevity stats.... it's not close either

Kds rings are more meaningless than kawhis although i agree kd is better. Ive never argued he wasnt.

[Bronbron23]

KD vs. Kawhi, Kareem vs. Kawhi, now T. Mac vs. Kawhi. Team, team, team. This is not an individual sport. Kawhi may be the luckiest superstar in history and people are acting like his rangz came in a vacuum.




That goes to how much of a joke FMVP is: the real FMVP often does not win because it has to go to a player on the winning team. Iggy winning it was a joke when LeBron was putting up 36/13/9. FMVP is by far the most overrated award in sports.



Except for Kawhi. ESPN had him at #25, between Robinson and Wade. Their resumes crush his at this point but the Kawhi hype train has escaped the laws of gravity, at least for now. He wasn't far behind those guys either. Barkley was #23 and K. Malone #17.

i think steph could of got the fmvp over iggy but it was alot closer than people think. Defense on this forum and in basketball in general gets severely underrated and iggy held lebron to all time low efficiency that series. If lebron shoots above 50% as usual theres a good chance the cavs win that series. His defense was pivotal and easily worth more than the extra 10 points a game steph score

As far as kawhi being ranked 25th that does seem a bit premature but he does have 2 chips and 2 fmvps. One of those fmvps was against one of the goats who he defended extremely well. Again people will list of brons stats that series but the truth is against kawhi lebron shot 35% from the field and kawhi completely disrupted lebron and the heats offense. He was a huge part of why miami didnt have one game in above 100 points.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi 18/6/2
Iggy 16/6/4

You do realize Iggy generated more offense than Kawhi did--offense is more than scoring. Plus Iggy was playing with the MVP and Klay. He didn't need to score as much as Kawhi yet nonetheless basically matched him.

Relative to their teams, kawhi carried a much heavier scoring load. Kawhi didn't have a goat level offensive point guard like Curry, he had tony parker. Kawhi also outscored tim duncan 23 PPG to 12 PPG in 3/4 wins.

In 2014 finals, there's no argument for finals MVP besides Kawhi.

In 2015 finals, Curry has just as good of a case for finals MVP as Iggy. Curry actually was the clear best offensive player, he didn't get carried in 3 wins like Duncan did. You look at the wins and in 3/4 wins it was Kawhi who has a +11 PPG edge over Duncan.

[Shooter]

KD = 15
Kawhi = 10

Vote up bois

[Mr. Woke]

Obviously KD lol.

[dankok8]

Kawhi's 2019 title run is the most impressive at least since Dirk 2011 but KD has had better longevity to this point. About 10 prime years vs. 4 prime years for Kawhi means edge Durant. And the gap in age is only 2 years so I don't see it likely that Kawhi overtakes him. In terms of who's the better player in their peaks it's very very close and can go either way.

[999Guy]

Kawhi is better as a player. Anything else is boring bullshit talk.

[Nike D'Antoni]

It will be Durant looks like, Kawhi will be lagging behind in alot of categories as he never looks like to be playing.

[SouBeachTalents]

All-time, barring some miraculous career resurgence, KD is going to be, at minimum, a good 10-15 spots ahead of Kawhi on virtually every single list. Who was better at their peak, that's actually a very good debate, one that's about as close as it gets imo.

But as it looks now, someone looking at this thread in 10 years will probably laugh that this was ever a legitimate debate :lol

[FultzNationRISE]

I hope everyone who is saying KD specifically because of how many more games and stats he'll have on the resume, is keeping that same energy when it comes to MJ and Bron.


:coleman:

[FilmyCogTurner]

Crazy to think with KL being injured all these years that he's still ahead of KD. The collusion with the Warriors really hurt his stock.

[John8204]

All-time, barring some miraculous career resurgence, KD is going to be, at minimum, a good 10-15 spots ahead of Kawhi on virtually every single list. Who was better at their peak, that's actually a very good debate, one that's about as close as it gets imo.

But as it looks now, someone looking at this thread in 10 years will probably laugh that this was ever a legitimate debate :lol

People like you say that...but because you are to much of a coward to put pen to paper.

Let's look at the all-time great Small Forwards...we'll remove Lebron because he's more of a power/point forward and his own thing.

Carmello Anthony
Paul Arizin
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Jimmy Butler
Billy Cunningham
Adrian Dantley
Kevin Durant
Alex English
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Grant Hill
Bernard King
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Mullin
Paul Pierce
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
James Worthy

You can make two easy cuts from the top of the list and the bottom of the list.

Bird, Dr J, Havlicek, Baylor - those four are clearly better than Durant and Leonard
Anthony, Butler, Cunningham, Dantley, English, Hill, King, and Mullin are clearly below Durant and Leonard

So that leaves us with Paul Arizin, Rick Barry, Paul Pierce, Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins, James Worthy

To put Durant and Leonard 15 spots apart you need to be able to argue for like 5 of those guys were better than Leonard and worse than Durant. I could make an argument for Rick Barry and maybe Scottie Pippen if Leonard falls off a cliff

[HoopsNY]

Kawhi 18/6/2
Iggy 16/6/4

You do realize Iggy generated more offense than Kawhi did--offense is more than scoring. Plus Iggy was playing with the MVP and Klay. He didn't need to score as much as Kawhi yet nonetheless basically matched him.

Really wondering how he came to this conclusion.

[SouBeachTalents]

People like you say that...but because you are to much of a coward to put pen to paper.

Let's look at the all-time great Small Forwards...we'll remove Lebron because he's more of a power/point forward and his own thing.

Carmello Anthony
Paul Arizin
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Jimmy Butler
Billy Cunningham
Adrian Dantley
Kevin Durant
Alex English
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Grant Hill
Bernard King
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Mullin
Paul Pierce
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
James Worthy

You can make two easy cuts from the top of the list and the bottom of the list.

Bird, Dr J, Havlicek, Baylor - those four are clearly better than Durant and Leonard
Anthony, Butler, Cunningham, Dantley, English, Hill, King, and Mullin are clearly below Durant and Leonard

So that leaves us with Paul Arizin, Rick Barry, Paul Pierce, Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins, James Worthy

To put Durant and Leonard 15 spots apart you need to be able to argue for like 5 of those guys were better than Leonard and worse than Durant. I could make an argument for Rick Barry and maybe Scottie Pippen if Leonard falls off a cliff
Jesus Christ, you really are a fcking moron :lol

[John8204]

Yeah that's what I thought...you are a coward and a joke

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi no contest.

[dankok8]

Yeah that's what I thought...you are a coward and a joke

I think when he said 10-15 spots ahead he was talking about combined all-time rankings with all positions not just SF's.

[John8204]

I think when he said 10-15 spots ahead he was talking about combined all-time rankings with all positions not just SF's.

I'm aware my point is you have to find players that are better than Kawhi and worse than Durant and that list is real small. Same thing with this generation looking at the top ten

Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Carmello, Jokic, Klay

Actually spacing out Durant and Kawhi by 10 or 15 spots is the sort of thing that you have to actually show. But SouthBeach just talks out of his butt all the time

[TheGoatest]

Kawhi's 2019 title run is the most impressive at least since Dirk 2011 but KD has had better longevity to this point.

It's one of the most overrated title runs in history. Kawhi missed 22 games that season. The Raptors record was 17-5 in those games. Not saying they would've won a championship without him or anything, I'm just saying that there are a LOT of all-time greats who could've carried a team that was capable of a 17-5 record without them to a chip. Starting with Durant.

[John8204]

It's one of the most overrated title runs in history. Kawhi missed 22 games that season. The Raptors record was 17-5 in those games. Not saying they would've won a championship without him or anything, I'm just saying that there are a LOT of all-time greats who could've carried a team that was capable of a 17-5 record without them to a chip. Starting with Durant.

In 30 years it's the only title for a Canadian professional sports team..you aren't wrong any of the top 15 players in the league would have walked onto that Raptors lineup and won a chip but none of them would take the tax hit to do so. No player in NBA history has played on three stacked teams and come away with so little. If the Clippers even make the finals then yet another player laps KD and his "legacy"

[Nike D'Antoni]

Durant has looked more impressive from his injury return than Kawhi. But still early, maybe Kawhi turns it around.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi no doubt about it.

[Nike D'Antoni]

They got a nice first-round matchup.

[BigShotBob]

When KD is in a healthy situation he has never failed unless he went against super teams. Issue is that he's never been on a fully healthy roster since his Warriors days and his 2012 OKC Finals run

[Nike D'Antoni]

When KD is in a healthy situation he has never failed unless he went against super teams. Issue is that he's never been on a fully healthy roster since his Warriors days and his 2012 OKC Finals run

Celtics last year was a super team?

[BigShotBob]

Celtics last year was a super team?

Compared to his team they were

[nayte]

Only just voted and went with KD. Tough choice but KD just puts in the work year after year. Comes back as a top player after injuries etc.
I would like to go Kwahi but just can't. One of the good comparison threads tho

[HoopologyPhD]

Klaw is not within ten spots of KD on all-time list.
KD was arguably better than Kawhi on defense when he tried and was allowed to (2017 finals) and lightyears ahead in terms of defense.
Neither brings any leadership or intangibles.

[hold this L]

KD is a top 20 player, Kawhi is top 35. If Kawhi played more basketball in his career, this would be a serious conversation. As it is, there's levels to this.


Compared to his team they were
Celtics were not a super team in any manner, you're adding weird metrics to fit into that equation.

[BigShotBob]

KD is a top 20 player, Kawhi is top 35. If Kawhi played more basketball in his career, this would be a serious conversation. As it is, there's levels to this.


Celtics were not a super team in any manner, you're adding weird metrics to fit into that equation.

Just calling a spade a spade. No world where a lineup that has to field Seth Curry and Patty Mills guarding Tatum and Brown so they can bulldoze their way to the basket is that not a huge disparity in talent.

KD with uninjured teams and without midget lineups simply doesn't lose.

[SouBeachTalents]

Just calling a spade a spade. No world where a lineup that has to field Seth Curry and Patty Mills guarding Tatum and Brown so they can bulldoze their way to the basket is that not a huge disparity in talent.

KD with uninjured teams and without midget lineups simply doesn't lose.
KD has lost in 12 of his 12 seasons without arguably the most talented supporting cast of all time.

[BigShotBob]

KD has lost in 12 of his 12 seasons without arguably the most talented supporting cast of all time.

OKC with dumb baby brook and infant James Harden off the bench was lead by KD to the Finals. Almost dragged Joe Harris, injured Kyrie, and one hamstring Harden past the champs. Had the Nets looking like world beaters with a suspended Kyrie until he got hurt just this year.

Point is we all know who KD is. No need to pretend. People just want to shackle him to subpar teams and systems to stifle his potential. He's not a floor raiser where he has to hold the ball and play helio-centric offense. We should stop glorying that. He's a Supreme Piece.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi has always dominated KD

[Jasper]

I had a thread that KD is under appreciated and needs his due.
So according to ISH this guy has no cred... compared to anyone .

Well I will say I will and always take KD over the lame brain Kawhi.

[999Guy]

Kawhi has a leg that’s rotting. His prime won’t be too long I don’t think.

He’ll have a D-Wade type career. Maybe less hollow. Maybe a CP3 type career.

KD blew out his non-explosion Achilles. He’s getting old anyway but he’ll come back 90+% IMO.

Kawhi was definitely better peak for peak though. No question.

Mostly agree. Interesting that I predicted Durant would come back basically the same. Forgot how in the air his recovery seemed.

Kawhi was better on both ends. If you didn't capture that as your primary take away after all that has happened then you failed as a fan. It is that obvious.

However, Durant is having a better career by virtue of health and consistency. But make no mistake Kawhi was a much more complete, dominant, rare kind of player at their best.

[SouBeachTalents]

Mostly agree. Interesting that I predicted Durant would come back basically the same. Forgot how in the air his recovery seemed.

Kawhi was better on both ends. If you didn't capture that as your primary take away after all that has happened then you failed as a fan. It is that obvious.

However, Durant is having a better career by virtue of health and consistency. But make no mistake Kawhi was a much more complete, dominant, rare kind of player at their best.
That was actually a pretty legit prediction :lol I knew Kawhi would have issues with injury, but I didn't foresee him missing most of the last 3 years. I also didn't know what to make of KD after his injury, but he's looked as good as he ever has, minus that atrocious showing against Boston.

And while Kawhi's capable of comparable scoring and production in the playoffs, he's not better than KD offensively.

[Manny98]

KD hasn't done **** all outside of the years where he bandwagoned the Warriors

I'd lean towards Kawhi tbh

[Nike D'Antoni]

Kawhi Leonard on facing Kevin Durant:

"He's a great player. These are the fun parts of it, just going out there and competing against a guy like him that's been doing it year after year. Everybody's gonna have to take the challenge."

[BigShotBob]

KD hasn't done **** all outside of the years where he bandwagoned the Warriors

I'd lean towards Kawhi tbh

Let the hate go

[King Kawhi]

I’m biased but I would take Kawhi over KD all day. To me kawhi has such an edge cause of his defense. I also think kawhi had one of the most impressive playoff runs with the raptors.

When it’s all said and done though people will probably remember Durant more because of his scoring.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Kevin Durant vs Kawhi playoffs head to head:

12-8 record to KD

KD stats:
27.4/6.9/4 on 50.4% shooting

Kawhi stats:
15.8/7.1/2.5 on 45.9% shooting

and Kawhi only scored 30 ONCE against KD in 20 games

per DurantMuse https://twitter.com/DurantMuse_/status/1646374562404114432

[SouBeachTalents]

Kevin Durant vs Kawhi playoffs head to head:

12-8 record to KD

KD stats:
27.4/6.9/4 on 50.4% shooting

Kawhi stats:
15.8/7.1/2.5 on 45.9% shooting

and Kawhi only scored 30 ONCE against KD in 20 games

per DurantMuse https://twitter.com/DurantMuse_/status/1646374562404114432
What's the point of posting this when the vast majority of those games occurred when Kawhi was still a role player? Even 2016 wasn't peak Kawhi yet offensively. You clearly knew this already too, as I know even you're not stupid enough to miss Kawhi averaging 15 ppg :lol

[PeroAntic]

Its pretty close but I'd go with Durant. Barely though. Two of the best players ever, hard to say really.

[Manny98]

Let the hate go

The Snake had the luxury of playing with the greatest point guards the league has ever seen in their primes

Kyrie
Curry
Westbrook
CP3

The best PG Kawhi has played with is Lowry and a past prime Tony Parker :roll:

Kawhi is easily better his 2019 playoff run shits on the snakes entire career

KD without a all time great point guard by his side is a more efficient Tracy McGrady

Great scorer, arguably the greatest scorer but doesn't impact the game in the way other greats have done

Kawhi will prove this series why he's the better player :applause:

[Wardell Curry]

The Snake had the luxury of playing with the greatest point guards the league has ever seen in their primes

Kyrie
Curry
Westbrook
CP3

The best PG Kawhi has played with is Lowry and a past prime Tony Parker :roll:

Kawhi is easily better his 2019 playoff run shits on the snakes entire career

KD without a all time great point guard by his side is a more efficient Tracy McGrady

Great scorer, arguably the greatest scorer but doesn't impact the game in the way other greats have done

Kawhi will prove this series why he's the better player :applause:

I haven't watched the game until turning it on now but the Suns starters are beating the Clippers starters. It's "just" the benches. Clippers are a deeper team. This will probably be on Monty Williams to figure out the rotations.

[Nike D'Antoni]

I wonder if opinions change after this series. Yeh, I know dumb, but most people have recency bias.

[kawhileonard2]

I wonder if opinions change after this series. Yeh, I know dumb, but most people have recency bias.

In 2017 it would have.

[Nike D'Antoni]

I hope this series goes to 7, so We enjoy this battle.

[Jasper]

I had a thread trying to explain to people that Durant deserves his due ... and everyone bashed him.
Now a thread comes out comparing him to limb node Kawhi , and far and away he gets his due.

LMFAO

[Nike D'Antoni]

Very bad we got deprived of this due to Kawhi injury

[SouBeachTalents]

Very bad we got deprived of this due to Kawhi injury
3rd matchup in a row one of them got injured during the series. Their last 3 series they've played like 11 quarters together out of 14 games.

[hold this L]

I wonder if opinions change after this series. Yeh, I know dumb, but most people have recency bias.

Even if Kawhi beats KD, he is not in the conversation. Dude barely plays enough basketball to get compared to the best.

[Axe]

I hope this series goes to 7, so We enjoy this battle.
Westbrook isn't going to make that possible.