Does this make Duncan top 5 All-Time?

[Nowitness]

Even tho there is debate about his true position let’s agree he was a PF.

Whoever you name as the best player at their respective position all time 100% of the time they didn’t face the best era of players at their position because they are so spaced out.

Best PGs ever are Magic (80s), Isiah (late 80s), Curry (2016), Stockton and GP (mid-late 90s), and the ancients (Oscar, Cousy, Frazier)

SGs are Harden (2010s), MJ (90s), Kobe (2007-2010), AI (early 00s), Drexler (late 80s) and Wade (mid 2000s).

SFs are LeBron (2003-2020), Mullin (late 80s), Bird (80s), KD (2010s), Pippen (90s), Dr J(late 70s) and Barry (late 70s)

Centers there are many but 60s is Bill/Wilt, 70s Kareem and Walton, 80s nobody of worth, 90s Robinson/Ewing/Hakeem and 2000s Shaq

Then we get to PF. Duncan has all time longevity, he was the best player from 1997-2014, with that said he faced the 4 other best PFs ever at their peaks and many other top 15 PFs. Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG, Webber, Dennis, Bosh.

The fact he was the best player for a decade also facing the best competition of any Position during his era cements his as top 5 all time. It can’t be argued against really.

[Roundball_Rock]

People always go on and on about rings and "rings as the man." If that is your metric, Duncan should be 3rd all-time behind Russell and MJ but the same people will have him around 8th-10th.

[Meticode]

People always go on and on about rings and "rings as the man." If that is your metric, Duncan should be 3rd all-time behind Russell and MJ but the same people will have him around 8th-10th.

Rings are the biggest metric when it comes to the Top 10, but you have to factor in other things as well.

[Lebron23]

No, he lacks mvp, and statistical dominance to be consider as a top 5 player of all time.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

His 2008-2012 years were very questionable for all time great level player, 2005 ring his playoff advanced stats are inferior to Manu, 2007 he had an incredibly easy path playing the suspension Suns and WOAT finals team. I think he was goat level in 2002/2003 but never reached those heights again. His longevity is a bit overrated because he was fat from 2009-2011 averaging 13PPG facing 1st round exits. Once he lost weight 2013-2015 he was very good again but his 2009-2012 years sucked for his standards. I would lean towards top 10 for him before I comfortably say top 5.

[Axe]

Rings are the biggest metric when it comes to the Top 10, but you have to factor in other things as well.
Did you know that when one star player already has one ring in his career, he can already be dubbed as the best player in the world?

[light]

Even tho there is debate about his true position let’s agree he was a PF.

Whoever you name as the best player at their respective position all time 100% of the time they didn’t face the best era of players at their position because they are so spaced out.

Best PGs ever are Magic (80s), Isiah (late 80s), Curry (2016), Stockton and GP (mid-late 90s), and the ancients (Oscar, Cousy, Frazier)

SGs are Harden (2010s), MJ (90s), Kobe (2007-2010), AI (early 00s), Drexler (late 80s) and Wade (mid 2000s).

SFs are LeBron (2003-2020), Mullin (late 80s), Bird (80s), KD (2010s), Pippen (90s), Dr J(late 70s) and Barry (late 70s)

Centers there are many but 60s is Bill/Wilt, 70s Kareem and Walton, 80s nobody of worth, 90s Robinson/Ewing/Hakeem and 2000s Shaq

Then we get to PF. Duncan has all time longevity, he was the best player from 1997-2014, with that said he faced the 4 other best PFs ever at their peaks and many other top 15 PFs. Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG, Webber, Dennis, Bosh.

The fact he was the best player for a decade also facing the best competition of any Position during his era cements his as top 5 all time. It can’t be argued against really.

Your argument hinges on "he was the best player from 1997-2014" and there is no proof of him being that every single year. There is more proof that that is not the case.

Some years Duncan wasn't great. Some seasons he would finish 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th or 14th in MVP voting. Some years he did nothing in the playoffs, almost like he wasn't even there. And if he lost in the first round - which he did 4 times - people didn't care and apparently neither did he. Ditto the semis, where he lost 6 times.

He frankly never dominated the league quite like a top 5 player should.

[Nowitness]

Your argument hinges on "he was the best player from 1997-2014" and there is no proof of him being that every single year. There is more proof that that is not the case.

Some years Duncan wasn't great. Some seasons he would finish 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th or 14th in MVP voting. Some years he did nothing in the playoffs, almost like he wasn't even there. And if he lost in the first round - which he did 4 times - people didn't care and apparently neither did he. Ditto the semis, where he lost 6 times.

He frankly never dominated the league quite like a top 5 player should.

That's the point I am making.

Firstly he has 9 top 5 MVP finishes, 10 All-NBA first team selections and 15 total.

Considering he was playing against the greatest era of PFs ever (Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, Webber, Bosh, Dennis) it is what elevates him. Every other best at their position may have had competition, but as shown apart from Magic/Isiah and Hakeem/Robinson no-one else had a decade plus battling the other greats at their positions.

Basically the fact Duncan was 10 times a top 5 player and clear cut best PF going against the 4 other greatest PFs ever proves he is top 5 all time.

If you don't think he dominated you're a simple stats man, no question about it. Imagine picking someone who scored 30 and allowed 25 versus someone who scored 24 and allowed 10 :facepalm

[dbugz]

MJ

KAJ
Russel

Bird
Magic

Wilt
Duncan

Hakeem
Shaq

Kobe

Libron (a bit of a stretch already)

on that tier

[Whoah10115]

He is not a top 5 or 10 player. Neither is Shaq.

You can all pick them, but to find a "case" for someone means you're looking at it the wrong way.

Also, no idea what 97-14 means. He was a C who played most of his career and all of his prime at PF. And his prime was done in 04. If you want, stretch to 05. He came into the league while Malone was the 2nd best player in the game (don't give me Shaq), he started making his case with his end of season and then title run in 99. Then Shaq begins his run.

Duncan wasn't a top 10 player by 2008. He has been the most appreciated unappreciated superstar ever, always getting votes, having people call him Spurs' best player in 14.

Made an All-NBA 1st Team because he was at C btw.

Is Harden before MJ? I suppose he is given I see LeBron, Mullin and Bird in that order :oldlol:

Duncan is a favorite but people talking about him ahead of Larry Bird, is crazy...he's not Chris Mullin.

[deathawaitu]

Duncan definitely is the GOAT PF, but most people would say it's fair to rank him 6-8. Hard to kick Jordan/KAJ/Russ/Magic/Bird from the top 5 since those guys are cemented

Few people seem to remember that no one feared the San Antonio Spurs prior to the arrival of Tim Duncan. The Spurs were not a championship organization prior to his arrival in San Antonio.

Tim Duncan’s greatness and consistency is what allowed the San Antonio franchise to win 5 NBA titles between 1999-2014. Not the other way around.
I get sick and tired of people stating that Kevin Garnett or Lebron in the exact same situation wins the same, or more titles
Without Tim Duncan anchoring the San Antonio offense and defense no one would have ever heard of Manu, Tony Parker or Stephen Jackson.
Those players had the luxury of playing with the greatest power forward of all time, not the other way around

The Spurs as an organization, culture and supporting cast revolved around Duncan. When he left that culture went with him. Pop can't turn everything into gold. Manu and Tony learned under Duncan. And as soon as Duncan left we saw Kawhi rebel and three years later the team is struggling to make the playoffs.

[Whoah10115]

Duncan definitely is the GOAT PF, but most people would say it's fair to rank him 6-8. Hard to kick Jordan/KAJ/Russ/Magic/Bird from the top 5 since those guys are cemented

Few people seem to remember that no one feared the San Antonio Spurs prior to the arrival of Tim Duncan. The Spurs were not a championship organization prior to his arrival in San Antonio.

Tim Duncan’s greatness and consistency is what allowed the San Antonio franchise to win 5 NBA titles between 1999-2014. Not the other way around.
I get sick and tired of people stating that Kevin Garnett or Lebron in the exact same situation wins the same, or more titles
Without Tim Duncan anchoring the San Antonio offense and defense no one would have ever heard of Manu, Tony Parker or Stephen Jackson.
Those players had the luxury of playing with the greatest power forward of all time, not the other way around

The Spurs as an organization, culture and supporting cast revolved around Duncan. When he left that culture went with him. Pop can't turn everything into gold. Manu and Tony learned under Duncan. And as soon as Duncan left we saw Kawhi rebel and three years later the team is struggling to make the playoffs.

This is painfully off the mark. Duncan didn't turn around the Spurs.

If Robinson decides to retire in 1997, Tim Duncan isn't going to a Final in 1999. The Spurs are not even a team with 1st round HCA his rookie season, or even in his third season.

This is the stuff that really annoys me when people talk about Tim Duncan. It's got no real understanding of him as a player. It's a lot of legend building.

[LoneyROY7]

Duncan definitely is the GOAT PF, but most people would say it's fair to rank him 6-8. Hard to kick Jordan/KAJ/Russ/Magic/Bird from the top 5 since those guys are cemented

Few people seem to remember that no one feared the San Antonio Spurs prior to the arrival of Tim Duncan. The Spurs were not a championship organization prior to his arrival in San Antonio.

Tim Duncan’s greatness and consistency is what allowed the San Antonio franchise to win 5 NBA titles between 1999-2014. Not the other way around.
I get sick and tired of people stating that Kevin Garnett or Lebron in the exact same situation wins the same, or more titles
Without Tim Duncan anchoring the San Antonio offense and defense no one would have ever heard of Manu, Tony Parker or Stephen Jackson.
Those players had the luxury of playing with the greatest power forward of all time, not the other way around

The Spurs as an organization, culture and supporting cast revolved around Duncan. When he left that culture went with him. Pop can't turn everything into gold. Manu and Tony learned under Duncan. And as soon as Duncan left we saw Kawhi rebel and three years later the team is struggling to make the playoffs.

Very high IQ post.

[rmt]

This is painfully off the mark. Duncan didn't turn around the Spurs.

If Robinson decides to retire in 1997, Tim Duncan isn't going to a Final in 1999. The Spurs are not even a team with 1st round HCA his rookie season, or even in his third season.

This is the stuff that really annoys me when people talk about Tim Duncan. It's got no real understanding of him as a player. It's a lot of legend building.

DRob disagrees with you - stated at his HOF speech that Duncan was God's answer to his prayers.

Why would you hold Duncan to a standard that even MJ didn't reach (not having 1st round HCA in rookie season and in case you're a Lebron fan - neither did he) and you do realize that in his third season Duncan didn't play in playoffs because of injury.

Ask yourself why anyone would be legend building on someone like Duncan who is not flashy, personable, exciting, etc. - it's because they recognize that he was the ultimate team player interested only in winning - did whatever it took to accomplish that - whether carrying the team at his peak or allowing others to grow/develop to their full potential and stepping aside so that they could shine. And in the meantime laid the foundation for almost 2 decades of a model organization.

OT, when I didn't have time to watch Spurs games and could only see the box score, I noticed that when Duncan had his usual forgettable 19-20 pts/9-10 rebs the Spurs almost always won but that when I saw high scoring by Duncan that they invariably lost (because everyone was playing like crap and he had to step up). He knew that basketball is a team sport, and you need your team mates to win.

[Carbine]

Your argument hinges on "he was the best player from 1997-2014" and there is no proof of him being that every single year. There is more proof that that is not the case.

Some years Duncan wasn't great. Some seasons he would finish 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th or 14th in MVP voting. Some years he did nothing in the playoffs, almost like he wasn't even there. And if he lost in the first round - which he did 4 times - people didn't care and apparently neither did he. Ditto the semis, where he lost 6 times.

He frankly never dominated the league quite like a top 5 player should.

He didn't lose 4 times in the 1st round. He didn't play in '00

I've always thought of Timmy's other first round exits as revealing. The first two Timmy was on decline, he may have put up some numbers but his impact wasn't the same, especially defense. He was getting picked on actually.

Then he became reborn and was as good as '07 Duncan again after he lost weight. Then he declined by the time the last 1st round exit happened vs Clippers.

We love to spin the narrative how we see it, so here's my take. When Duncan wasn't "Duncan," they were 1st round exits. When he was back to being Duncan, the finals appearances started rolling in again.

Duncan being on decline from '09-'11 does get lost in his story though. Nobody ever brings it up, they think he was just steady dominant his whole career. He had a two or three year hiccup in there at age 32-34

[RRR3]

He is not a top 5 or 10 player. Neither is Shaq.

You can all pick them, but to find a "case" for someone means you're looking at it the wrong way.

Also, no idea what 97-14 means. He was a C who played most of his career and all of his prime at PF. And his prime was done in 04. If you want, stretch to 05. He came into the league while Malone was the 2nd best player in the game (don't give me Shaq), he started making his case with his end of season and then title run in 99. Then Shaq begins his run.

Duncan wasn't a top 10 player by 2008. He has been the most appreciated unappreciated superstar ever, always getting votes, having people call him Spurs' best player in 14.

Made an All-NBA 1st Team because he was at C btw.

Is Harden before MJ? I suppose he is given I see LeBron, Mullin and Bird in that order :oldlol:

Duncan is a favorite but people talking about him ahead of Larry Bird, is crazy...he's not Chris Mullin.
Name 10 players better than Shaq :coleman:

[Roundball_Rock]

It isn't accurate to say Duncan went to a losing franchise. The Spurs were perennial contenders throughout the 90's before Duncan. Robinson created a foundation of winning (21-61 before him); Duncan took it to another level. Yes, they underachieved in the playoffs and Robinson's playoff declines are a reason for it but Duncan was a #1 pick that joined a team that was 59-23 in 96' with Robinson playing. Other than Magic, who else went to a more favorable situation as a #1 pick?

[Carbine]

He certainly didn't go to a dumpster fire team that's for sure, but it wasn't great either.

Robinson wasn't the same after injury, although still an awesome player. Elliot and Avery were the #3 and #4 options.......kind of meh.

Ellie and Jackson were not exactly great either, both shot horrendously in playoffs.

They won with tremendous defense and grind out, throw it into Timmy 4 down style and work off that. It's probably on par with the '03 playoff run for Duncan as far as impact goes, but doesn't get that kind of recognition by anyone.

[Whoah10115]

Name 10 players better than Shaq :coleman:

I think the 4 centers, Jordan, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan are all better players...they are all better players.

Shaq is super great, and unplayable for stretches. But I think he was sometimes unplayable because he got away with a lot.

You shouldn't be able to throw your elbows into people like that. That's worse than great players getting some calls, or getting away with some travels. How am I supposed to defend that? That he was so big makes it worse.

If those 3peat Lakers had Ewing, Hakeem and Admiral all in their primes, does he get away with all that? Dikembe is great but tiers away from them, and a bit past his prime.

What Shaq got away with in that series against him? That's ridiculous.

There's a reason these TNT and NBA TV guys react the way they do with some Shaq clips. They aren't just busting his chops.

[Whoah10115]

He certainly didn't go to a dumpster fire team that's for sure, but it wasn't great either.

Robinson wasn't the same after injury, although still an awesome player. Elliot and Avery were the #3 and #4 options.......kind of meh.

Ellie and Jackson were not exactly great either, both shot horrendously in playoffs.

They won with tremendous defense and grind out, throw it into Timmy 4 down style and work off that. It's probably on par with the '03 playoff run for Duncan as far as impact goes, but doesn't get that kind of recognition by anyone.

Robinson was better than Duncan in Duncan's rookie season.

He was especially better in the first..somewhere under 50 games. Then he started having issues, and next game left early and subsequently missed a bunch of games. He averaged in the second half of the season approximately what Duncan averaged in the first half.

He had slightly better numbers, just about the same, in maybe 6 fewer MPG. And he was the better playmaker and especially defender.

Sean Elliot as a 3rd option is pretty damn good when he's fighting for 1st option status with Robinson.

Duncan went into an amazing situation. Once Robinson's back got really bad Duncan took over, but he had options: quality and experience all over the roster.

And I'm watching the Portland series now. So let's be real.

[Whoah10115]

DRob disagrees with you - stated at his HOF speech that Duncan was God's answer to his prayers.

Why would you hold Duncan to a standard that even MJ didn't reach (not having 1st round HCA in rookie season and in case you're a Lebron fan - neither did he) and you do realize that in his third season Duncan didn't play in playoffs because of injury.

Ask yourself why anyone would be legend building on someone like Duncan who is not flashy, personable, exciting, etc. - it's because they recognize that he was the ultimate team player interested only in winning - did whatever it took to accomplish that - whether carrying the team at his peak or allowing others to grow/develop to their full potential and stepping aside so that they could shine. And in the meantime laid the foundation for almost 2 decades of a model organization.

OT, when I didn't have time to watch Spurs games and could only see the box score, I noticed that when Duncan had his usual forgettable 19-20 pts/9-10 rebs the Spurs almost always won but that when I saw high scoring by Duncan that they invariably lost (because everyone was playing like crap and he had to step up). He knew that basketball is a team sport, and you need your team mates to win.

I don't understand this.

Why wouldn't Duncan be the answer to Robinson's prayers? That proves Duncan was better?

What does that mean? A great player comes along to help someone who has never had a great player with him...and comes once this guy is coming off a horrible back injury. Of course Duncan is the answer to his prayers.

Apologies, but I'm not the hbk or whatever his name is. Duncan isn't overrated, but the way people talk about him is stupid. Like the idea he doesn't show emotion. He showed quite a bit really, but he wasn't loud. And he showed more midway thru his career, when his game didn't come as easy.

The way people evaluate Duncan has little to do with his place outright, so much as it tends to downgrade others around him.

[Soundwave]

Name 10 players better than Shaq :coleman:

There isn't really. Shaq at his peak is probably the 2nd best player ever after peak Jordan.

I think if you put him against a prime Wilt or Kareem, he would still dominate those guys. There's never been a combination of that kind of strength + mobility + size in an NBA player outside of maybe Wilt and Wilt didn't like to be seen as being too aggressive. Shaq didn't care.

[Carbine]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.

[dbugz]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.

You can't be better than the goat if you can't shoot an effin freethrows to save your life :roll:

[Phoenix]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.

Did you give up on the Bulls playoff run?

[tpols]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.


Jordan's intangibles, skill and discipline were so much better than Shaq it's not even funny.

He had absolutely no holes in his game. while Shaq had a HUGE one. a couple actually.

Shaq wins 4 titles with prime penny, kobe, and wade... MJ goes 6/6 with just pippen.

[Axe]

Jordan's intangibles, skill and discipline were so much better than Shaq it's not even funny.

He had absolutely no holes in his game. while Shaq had a HUGE one. a couple actually.

Shaq wins 4 titles with prime penny, kobe, and wade... MJ goes 6/6 with just pippen.
3ball's counterpart wouldn't agree with this

[Reggie43]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.

This.

To be fair to Jordan I never watched him at his absolute peak but all the players after, single season peak 2000 Shaq is also the best for me easily.

[Axe]

You can't be better than the goat if you can't shoot an effin freethrows to save your life :roll:
"Ohh, the insecurity..." :lol

[Whoah10115]

I personally think Shaq at his best is better than Jordan.

'00 is the only year I thought he cared about pick and roll defense, which was and always has been his downfall on defense. That version of Shaq is the best of any version of player to ever play basketball.

Lol.

Again, Shaq with Hakeem, Robinson and Ewing in the league isn't getting away with the same things.

Lol, give Barkley a Kobe clone and watch out.

[Nowitness]

The point I am making is he is clear cut the best PF ever (and the best player between the MJ/LeBron era). His case is strengthened by the fact that he is the clear cut best PF in the ra that features the 4 other greatest PFs ever. No other player can say that. They may have faced another all time great, like Magic/Isiah or Hakeem/Robinson, but Duncan battling KG/Dirk/Malone/Barkley his whole career and still coming out on top adds to his already perfect legacy.

[Whoah10115]

No.

Just creating means for exalting him.

[Turbo Slayer]

It's really crazy how every player in the top 10 in most credible lists can be argued for GOAT. It shows how difficult it is to get into the top 10 and the incredible standards that goes along it.

[rmt]

This.

To be fair to Jordan I never watched him at his absolute peak but all the players after, single season peak 2000 Shaq is also the best for me easily.

Well, you missed something to behold. I'm no Jordan fan, but no doubt in my mind, he's the GOAT (been watching NBA since 1978).

[Carbine]

Jordan's intangibles, skill and discipline were so much better than Shaq it's not even funny.

He had absolutely no holes in his game. while Shaq had a HUGE one. a couple actually.

Shaq wins 4 titles with prime penny, kobe, and wade... MJ goes 6/6 with just pippen.

What's the point of bringing up career stuff? All I said was '00......MJ winning 6 titles has nothing to do with peak.

[deathawaitu]

This is painfully off the mark. Duncan didn't turn around the Spurs.

If Robinson decides to retire in 1997, Tim Duncan isn't going to a Final in 1999. The Spurs are not even a team with 1st round HCA his rookie season, or even in his third season.

This is the stuff that really annoys me when people talk about Tim Duncan. It's got no real understanding of him as a player. It's a lot of legend building.

You just proved my point that people like you have no idea what you are talking about except box score

The player Duncan is/did is what every coach and organization wish they had. An all time great who evaluates his teammates into stars and build a winning foundation/culture for 2 decade

Duncan isn't flashy or stats pad like every stars these days. Duncan just knew how to "win"

[Carbine]

They don't win a title without Robinson though, it's a fair point. He was still really good in '99

You could say the same about any title team and their #2 though, besides a few exceptions, so it's kind of a lame point to make.

[tpols]

duncan could be top 5 resume all time but dirk and garnett were just as good as him.

[Nowitness]

duncan could be top 5 resume all time but dirk and garnett were just as good as him.

:facepalm

In what way?

[tpols]

:facepalm

In what way?

we saw prime dirk and duncan do battle in the playoffs.

we literally have the evidence right at our fingertips and before our eyes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkqL_YhzSQ

Dirk not only won with less help, he hung 27/13 on a blistering 128 ORTG on Timmy's head.

Do you know how insane that is?

Thats not to say duncan's overrated, just that dirk is underrated.

[Nowitness]

we saw prime dirk and duncan do battle in the playoffs.

we literally have the evidence right at our fingertips and before our eyes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkqL_YhzSQ

Dirk not only won with less help, he hung 27/13 on a blistering 128 ORTG on Timmy's head.

Do you know how insane that is?

Thats not to say duncan's overrated, just that dirk is underrated.

Don't get me wrong, Dirk is my favorite player ever (my name on here is after him) but to me he is in a tier below Duncan.

I have him just outside the top 15 ever and the second best PF to ever play. His 2011 title is overrated because his play wasn't elite elite (outside of the WCF) but his help is really overrated.

If we are just going by peak it is close (and KG is right there with them, and if we are just going by a regular season KGs 04 season is better than any Duncan year) but in the playoffs TD always elevated and came through pre-2009. Even in that WCSF in 06 Duncan was 32/12/4/3 with elite defense. Dirk was a good defensive rebounder but outside of that his passing and overall defense isn't close to TD, whilst KGs weak offensive game (settled for post fadeaways) hurts him.

I have TD 4th all time, Dirk 16, KG 19. But respect to all three, will never be more competition in one position in one conference ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

We also saw Amare put up 37 PPG on Duncan. Does that mean Amare>Duncan?

[tpols]

thats a poor example because 1) amare was not the first option or best player of his team... that'd be MVP Nash

and 2) Dirk wasn't a one hit wonder like amare who was only good for like 4 or 5 years... he has a prime that rivals Duncan's.

He's an MVP, FMVP, champion. He has it all on top of the H2H... Amare didn't.

Gotta do apples to apples....

[Roundball_Rock]

Amare was the first option. Second options don't score 37 because they don't get the volume required to score that much.

Amare got hurt. Your logic implies prime Amare>prime Duncan. I was curious if you would stand by it. H2H is useful but there are limits to it because of individual match ups, team defenses, etc. Which is why stuff like Amare outplaying Duncan or Smits outplaying Ewing (twice in three years) happens.


He's an MVP, FMVP, champion. He has it all on top of the H2H... Amare didn't.

If H2H is that important a metric then it should be even worse when a clearly lesser player outplays the superior player. You are saying it shouldn't even count in those cases. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Dirk and Duncan is as apples to apples as you can ever get.

If Amare was a superstar for over a decade, with his own team as the bonafide best player and leader, leading his team to playoffs and championships in spectacular manner, yes his H2H would matter in a discussion between him and tim duncan but the fact of the matter is he never did those things so its just a simple one off of a worse player outplaying a better one. Which happens from time to time.

Dirk was not a one off... this shouldnt have to be explained to you.

[Carbine]

Amare didn't drop 37 on Duncan.

You can watch for yourself in one of the games where he had 41

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0MQA95hMdM

What did he have against Duncan - 12 pts? Maybe 14 if you count a 3-2 fast break where Duncan comes from the left side of the floor to the right side of the floor to contest a full speed Amare.....

He scored 37ppg against the Spurs. That's accurate.

[tpols]

Steve Nash is also probably the best setup man on the PnR ever... it's just not a fair analogy. Dirk's best teammate was Jason Terry.

If Nash wouldve stayed with Dallas after the rule changes they wouldve been big time ringing.

[Nowitness]

Also just posting his numbers doesn’t really paint the full picture.

Spurs forced the ball to STAT to slow the 7SOL offense down to a half court offense. This was more SA's style as it meant they could play their usual slow game as well and limit the 3 pointers.

Stat hit his and he was a great player (and another example of how stacked the PF spot was for the decade) but like pointed out before an outlier series means nothing. Dirks H2H is relevant cause he also has accolades, longevity, stats and impact.

[Roundball_Rock]

The problem is Duncan, Dirk played for almost two decades. You are boiling their entire careers to 7 games. There is a reason Duncan is ranked in the top 10 AT and Dirk is top 20 AT.


He scored 37ppg against the Spurs. That's accurate.

Either way, Duncan was a PF, was the best player and defensive anchor of the Spurs. He could have taken Amare on but didn't.

Amare was a one off but Smits did it twice in three years in the playoffs with both players in their primes. That can't be explained away as a fluke. It probably had to do with Ewing having trouble with Smits' being 7'4" and general issues against legitimate centers. It doesn't make Smits better than Ewing.

[Carbine]

I'd say the strategy worked, wouldn't you? Duncan isn't an egotistical player who overrides his coaches wishes.

Suns PPG in the playoffs prior to the Spurs series in 2005 was 116 PPG and never held under 100 pts in any game.

Spurs held them to 104 and twice in a five game series to 95 or below. Seems to me it worked?

[Lebron23]

Steve Nash is also probably the best setup man on the PnR ever... it's just not a fair analogy. Dirk's best teammate was Jason Terry.

If Nash wouldve stayed with Dallas after the rule changes they wouldve been big time ringing.

Dirk played with finley, nash, jamison, and walker in 2003-04 season. Along side the 2004 lakers espn hyped them up as championship contenders. They only won 51 games after having a good record in 2003. Nash said it was very difficult for don nelson to distribute some playing time to dirk, walker and jamison because the 3 of them were forwards who can stretch the floor. Dallas should have sign a defensive center instead of signing Jamison and Antoine Walker at the same time.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'd say the strategy worked, wouldn't you? Duncan isn't an egotistical player who overrides his coaches wishes.

Suns PPG in the playoffs prior to the Spurs series in 2005 was 116 PPG and never held under 100 pts in any game.

Spurs held them to 104 and twice in a five game series to 95 or below. Seems to me it worked?

Sure--another example of why going by a series is shaky because so many factors go into a given player's performance. Dirk having a better series would be relevant only if Duncan had a pattern of being outplayed in the postseason, postseason struggles, etc.--which he obviously does not.

I was pointing out how flawed tpol's logic is, not agreeing with that notion.

[tpols]

Also just posting his numbers doesn’t really paint the full picture.

Spurs forced the ball to STAT to slow the 7SOL offense down to a half court offense. This was more SA's style as it meant they could play their usual slow game as well and limit the 3 pointers.

Stat hit his and he was a great player (and another example of how stacked the PF spot was for the decade) but like pointed out before an outlier series means nothing. Dirks H2H is relevant cause he also has accolades, longevity, stats and impact.

Bingo.

[Axe]

duncan could be top 5 resume all time but dirk and garnett were just as good as him.
All of them are better than kevin love, i suppose.

[tpols]

All of them are better than kevin love, i suppose.

Obviously... there's levels to this shit bruh.

Barkley Duncan Dirk Garnett power forward Mount Rushmore might be the best for any position outside Center.

[Axe]

Obviously... there's levels to this shit bruh.

Barkley Duncan Dirk Garnett power forward Mount Rushmore might be the best for any position outside Center.
Then what about dwight howard? Oh, almost forgot the poor fella still doesn't have a ring to be involved in that argument.

[rmt]

Don't get me wrong, Dirk is my favorite player ever (my name on here is after him) but to me he is in a tier below Duncan.

I have him just outside the top 15 ever and the second best PF to ever play. His 2011 title is overrated because his play wasn't elite elite (outside of the WCF) but his help is really overrated.

If we are just going by peak it is close (and KG is right there with them, and if we are just going by a regular season KGs 04 season is better than any Duncan year) but in the playoffs TD always elevated and came through pre-2009. Even in that WCSF in 06 Duncan was 32/12/4/3 with elite defense. Dirk was a good defensive rebounder but outside of that his passing and overall defense isn't close to TD, whilst KGs weak offensive game (settled for post fadeaways) hurts him.

I have TD 4th all time, Dirk 16, KG 19. But respect to all three, will never be more competition in one position in one conference ever.

With TD and Dirk in the same DIVISION - a 60-22 team (#3 in NBA) playing a 63-19 team (#2 in NBA) in the 2nd round of 2006 playoffs - NBA had to change some rule so this didn't happen again.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

One main issue I see with Duncan is his finals wins are against defensive teams (pistons, nets) or just flat out bad 1 man teams in Cavs.

When Duncan faced Dirk in 2006, he lost
When Duncan faced Kobe in 2008, he lost
When Duncan faced Shaq in 2001 or 2002, he lost

Even old man Karl Malone stuck it to Duncan in 2004.

So it really depends how much stock you put in Duncan's 2003 playoff run. Without Duncan's 2003 playoff run, he would never be considered a top 5 player ever.

[Whoah10115]

You just proved my point that people like you have no idea what you are talking about except box score

The player Duncan is/did is what every coach and organization wish they had. An all time great who evaluates his teammates into stars and build a winning foundation/culture for 2 decade

Duncan isn't flashy or stats pad like every stars these days. Duncan just knew how to "win"

:oldlol:

I guess if I'm disagreeing with you on something I'm looking at box score.

Your point was refuted. People like you only look at rings and players you followed.

Lol what do you actually know about Tim Duncan? Talk generic shit and have nothing to say.

[Whoah10115]

They don't win a title without Robinson though, it's a fair point. He was still really good in '99

You could say the same about any title team and their #2 though, besides a few exceptions, so it's kind of a lame point to make.

You're kinda useless bruh. You don't follow a conversation.

You like to just pick out single sentences outside of the context they were made? You should honestly find something else to talk about, because you don't have anything to say.