If Ray Allen had missed ...

[Marchesk]

And Tim Duncan ended up 6-6, would we be having a different GOAT conversation than the tired Jordan/Lebron one?

As we all know, Pop had Duncan on the bench, because he wanted to defend the three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr6XsZVb-ZE

The GOAT case for Duncan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sRSpQ78Y3c

[Axe]

So you think that bran's supposed to be 2-7 if this one only happened way back 7 years ago?

[Marchesk]

So you think that bran's supposed to be 2-7 if this one only happened way back 7 years ago?

I think Duncan may have ended up 6-6, like the actual GOAT. Maybe the Spurs wouldn't have been as motivated the next season, and maybe they don't develop that amazing passing offense. But the Heat outside of Lebron still looked old as shit in the finals. So I think the Spurs still take them in 14.

That would put Lebron at 0-3 against Duncan in the finals, which would count against ranking him over Tim.

[SouBeachTalents]

I've brought this up before, but it's crazy even after 5 titles how many times Duncan missed out on legitimate title opportunities

The Fisher shot in '04
Dirk's 3 point play in '06
A 2-0 lead in the 2012 WCF
And the aforementioned Allen 3

Even 2015, iirc the Spurs lost on the final night of the regular season, dropping from the 2nd seed to the 6th, eventually losing on the CP3 GW in Game 7. Who knows how that season plays out if they don't drop 4 spots from 1 loss

Obviously you could make counter arguments the other way, as you can with virtually every player in history, the creepy thing is they're literally all tied exclusively to Robert Horry

His in and out 3 in '03(and the Dirk injury the next round)
His Game 5 performance and GW in '05
His foul on Nash & subsequent suspensions in '07

[Axe]

I think Duncan may have ended up 6-6, like the actual GOAT. Maybe the Spurs wouldn't have been as motivated the next season, and maybe they don't develop that amazing passing offense. But the Heat outside of Lebron still looked old as shit in the finals. So I think the Spurs still take them in 14.

That would put Lebron at 0-3 against Duncan in the finals, which would count against ranking him over Tim.
Lol be careful with saying things like that, as we have a renowned critic in this board.

[SpaceJam]

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

A lot of what-ifs that series...like what if he didn't miss this gimme down 2 with 48 seconds left of Game 7

[Whoah10115]

Duncan on the bench on that play is pretty crazy. Tho it should show some of these crazy people that Duncan was still their best player in 14. Duncan even 5 years earlier doesn't have that happen to him.

Still the wrong decision by Popp. I think he gets a pass a lot for mismanaged things like that.

[Phoenix]

It's about narratives. If the Spurs win that title and Duncan presumably wins FMVP ( I remember Danny Green was killing them in the beginning), you're looking at 6/6 with 4 FMVPs. That stands up in alot of top 5 GOAT discussions. Lebron wouldn't have been able to have that great game 7, and the Heat were beat up in 2014 so they still end up likely losing again. So Lebron is then 0-3 against Duncan for his career. Bron would still be considered the superior player, but it would make the conversation more interesting. To me Duncan gets slighted at times because two other teammates won FMVPs for his titles. I think it's a testament to him that he's never allowed personal glory to interfere with the ultimate goal of winning titles.

[tpols]

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

A lot of what-ifs that series...like what if he didn't miss this gimme down 2 with 48 seconds left of Game 7

deja vu

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LoneSardonicAmphiuma-size_restricted.gif

[tpols]

i also dont believe 2014 is a guarantee if they don't lose in such heart breaking fashion the year prior.

that put them on a true mission. Duncan even guaranteed a ring before the Finals started ala Jason Terry's tattoo.

[Phoenix]

i also dont believe 2014 is a guarantee if they don't lose in such heart breaking fashion the year prior.

that put them on a true mission. Duncan even guaranteed a ring before the Finals started ala Jason Terry's tattoo.

The Heat didn't have the horsepower in 2014 with Wade and Bosh having health issues. I think the mission angle only works as far as it's probably not an outright blitzkrieg had the Spurs won the year before. SA probably still win in 14 but it may have been a 6 game series and not blowing them off the floor.

[999Guy]

I’m gonna be unfun logical guy.

Why do Ray Allen’s fingertip muscles get to define Duncan, LeBron, and possibly even Jordan’s legacies?

The fact that it could make Duncan undefeated in the finals, and put LeBron in the Jerry West/Wilt zone on finals appearances should make everyone say **** rings. They don’t means shit except what team won.

They really don’t even define teams properly half the time. Spurs were better than Miami. OKC was better than EVERYONE that year.

[guy]

It's about narratives. If the Spurs win that title and Duncan presumably wins FMVP ( I remember Danny Green was killing them in the beginning), you're looking at 6/6 with 4 FMVPs. That stands up in alot of top 5 GOAT discussions. Lebron wouldn't have been able to have that great game 7, and the Heat were beat up in 2014 so they still end up likely losing again. So Lebron is then 0-3 against Duncan for his career. Bron would still be considered the superior player, but it would make the conversation more interesting. To me Duncan gets slighted at times because two other teammates won FMVPs for his titles. I think it's a testament to him that he's never allowed personal glory to interfere with the ultimate goal of winning titles.

I'm not sure he would. I'm not arguing if he should or not, but Lebron 0-3 vs Duncan with Duncan having 6 titles while Lebron is 2-7 in the finals? I could see it look alot like Russell vs Wilt, where Russell is usually considered the greater player.

I would say Duncan would for sure be considered top 5 by the majority.

[tpols]

The Heat didn't have the horsepower in 2014 with Wade and Bosh having health issues. I think the mission angle only works as far as it's probably not an outright blitzkrieg had the Spurs won the year before. SA probably still win in 14 but it may have been a 6 game series and not blowing them off the floor.

the spurs never won titles back to back....

[r0drig0lac]

The Heat didn't have the horsepower in 2014 with Wade and Bosh having health issues. I think the mission angle only works as far as it's probably not an outright blitzkrieg had the Spurs won the year before. SA probably still win in 14 but it may have been a 6 game series and not blowing them off the floor.

this

[Roundball_Rock]

Nope. We got an idea about this when Kobe looked like he would tie or surpass MJ's 6 rings (which many fans think is the record--the real record is 11). If any GOAT-level player not named Russell gets to 6+ the criteria would suddenly shift to GOAT being about other things. When Kobe was the threat MJ advocates would always say MJ>Kobe because MJ was the better player and argued the quality of his rings was superior. This robotic "ring hugging" is a position of convenience vis-a-vis LeBron that is tailor made for the social media era (so we see 6>3 and 6-0>3-6 spammed daily all over social media). If LeBron gets to 6 (unlikely but possible) or Giannis or Luka does the tune will shift.

Another example is Kareem. He has 6 rings. It is absurd to say making the finals 10 times<making it 6 times. Nonetheless, the argument from MJ advocates is his rings don't count as much. There is always something. Rings are everything, except when someone as many or more. :oldlol:

MJ advocates set the terms of the debate because that is who dominates the media today (especially ESPN, the most powerful sports media entity). As long as that continues, we will keep seeing these contortions to suit the case they proffer for MJ. Let's see what happens when a new generation takes over the media but MJ advocates have controlled the terrain for decades.

Duncan's problem ultimately would be the same as Kobe's: he wasn't as individually dominant as the other players who are constants in the GOAT conversation.

[Phoenix]

the spurs never won titles back to back....

All fine to say in hindsight,but their first three titles they never made it back to the finals, unlike 2013 and 2014. They were positioned for it and it took the most improbable of clutch shots. The ball bounces differently on that one play in 2013 game 6 and they're back to back. That's how fine the line was. Unless you're arguing that if they win in 2013, they don't make it back to the finals in 2014.

[tpols]

All fine to say in hindsight,but their first three titles they never made it back to the finals, unlike 2013 and 2014. They were positioned for it and it took the most improbable of clutch shots. The ball bounces differently on that one play in 2013 game 6 and they're back to back. That's how fine the line was. Unless you're arguing that if they win in 2013, they don't make it back to the finals in 2014.

they were taken to 7 in the first round by the mavs...

at the time, the 2014 spurs were not seen as some super team. They only got that label and hindsight aura after miami laid down and gave up.

The Bulls, Thunder, and Heat were all title favorites over them.

link (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1829943-nba-championship-odds-2013-14-every-teams-chances-of-winning-the-title)

[Roundball_Rock]

Betting odds aren't the same as real odds since they are aimed at having even bets on both sides. It is crazy to think the Bulls had a better shot in 14' than the team that came within one shot of a title in 13'.


they were taken to 7 in the first round by the mavs...

Yes, a 49 win team. The 13' Heat were taken to 7 by a 49 win team too.

"Super team" is a meaningless term because people flip flop on what is and isn't a super team based on their agenda. So a 51 win Cavs team is a super team but a 72 win team isn't according to the same person. Etc.

[Phoenix]

they were taken to 7 in the first round by the mavs...

at the time, the 2014 spurs were not seen as some super team. They only got that label and hindsight aura after miami laid down and gave up.

The Bulls, Thunder, and Heat were all title favorites over them.

link (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1829943-nba-championship-odds-2013-14-every-teams-chances-of-winning-the-title)

A healthier version of the Heat beat the Spurs by the skin of their teeth in 2013. A worse version of that team with a hobbled Wade and Bosh wasn't beating the Spurs regardless of what happened in 2013. The fact that Dallas took San Antonio to 7 in the first round has no bearing on the reality that the Heat weren't winning the finals. It was only the degree of the beatdown in question, and that was largely spurred by the extra motivation San Antonio had coming off the prior year.

Miami beating up on the Bobcats, Nets, and an annually imploding Pacers squad must have lulled you into thinking they had a shot against the Spurs. That Spurs team featured the same kind of superior teamwork that's taken out most of Lebron's finals teams. They lacked the firepower, strategy, health, and defense to do anything against what the Spurs rained on them in 2014. And, the way they peaked in the finals beats ALOT of teams regardless of whether they were comparatively by the numbers before that.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Spurs had the best record in the WC in 11' (1 game behind Chicago for the best overall record), tied for the best record in the NBA in 12' (lost the tiebreaker to Chicago), won 58 games in 13', and again had the best record in the NBA in 14'. They didn't come out of nowhere.

As a comparison, the Heat and Thunder had the best record in their conference only once during that same time frame.

People forget the Spurs blew the Thunder out in the WCF in 14' (avg. margin of victory +10.5) and swept the WCF in 13'.

[tpols]

A healthier version of the Heat beat the Spurs by the skin of their teeth in 2013. A worse version of that team with a hobbled Wade and Bosh wasn't beating the Spurs regardless of what happened in 2013. The fact that Dallas took San Antonio to 7 in the first round has no bearing on the reality that the Heat weren't winning the finals. It was only the degree of the beatdown in question, and that was largely spurred by the extra motivation San Antonio had coming off the prior year.

Miami beating up on the Bobcats, Nets, and an annually imploding Pacers squad must have lulled you into thinking they had a shot against the Spurs. That Spurs team featured the same kind of superior teamwork that's taken out most of Lebron's finals teams. They lacked the firepower, strategy, health, and defense to do anything against what the Spurs rained on them in 2014. And, the way they peaked in the finals beats ALOT of teams regardless of whether they were comparatively by the numbers before that.

Lulled me?

They were even odds (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2084873-nba-finals-2014-updated-predictions-based-on-vegas-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs) by vegas lmao

NOBODY predicted that ass whooping.

The hindsight bias surrounding that team is enormous.

[Phoenix]

Lulled me?

They were even odds (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2084873-nba-finals-2014-updated-predictions-based-on-vegas-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs) by vegas lmao

NOBODY predicted that ass whooping.

The hindsight bias surrounding that team is enormous.

I didn't argue that a 4-1 beatdown with 20+ point blowouts was the prediction. I'm not even arguing that the Spurs were a 'super' team( as subjective as that term is). But a lot of fools and their money departed if they thought the Heat were beating the Spurs in 2014, regardless of whether it was lopsided or competitive. As I said, the Heat *barely* won the prior year with the team that won 27 in a row and 66 games. Why would a worse version of the team win in 2014? The Spurs didn't drop off from 2013 to 2014. Whoever thought it was even money were frankly....morons.

[tpols]

i mean that was the public sentiment... that's what... everybody thought lol. That it would be a close coin flip series just like the year prior.

[Roundball_Rock]

A small market team versus the most hyped team of the time with prime LeBron. Who do you think casual fans are going to bet on?


As I said, the Heat *barely* won the prior year with the team that won 27 in a row and 66 games. Why would a worse version of the team win in 2014? The Spurs didn't drop off from 2013 to 2014. Whoever thought it was even money were frankly....morons.

The Heat went from winning 8 more games to winning 8 less games than the Spurs in 14'. That is a 16 game swing. If people didn't notice that they are morons.

[Phoenix]

The Heat went from winning 8 more games to winning 8 less games than the Spurs in 14'. That is a 16 game swing. If people didn't notice that they are morons.

Precisely. The Spurs went from 58 to 62 wins. The Heat went from 66 to 54 wins. Wade was on load management during the season. People added that up and came away with.........even money? MMmkay.

[Lebron23]

By 2014 the heat were a shell of their former shelves. I actually thinks that Riley should have surrounded them with younger role players instead of aging veterans. Spurs started the 3 points shooting era by draining several 3 pointers in the nba finals. Even the Spurs role players were making their outside shots.

[tpols]

i'll tell you two Nostradmus'es what... since your enlightened basketball minds are hovering so far above concrete past sentiment and reality...

Can you please forward me your hottest playoff picks this year that completely destroy the odds so i can put a G down and make some money.

[guy]

Lulled me?

They were even odds (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2084873-nba-finals-2014-updated-predictions-based-on-vegas-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs) by vegas lmao

NOBODY predicted that ass whooping.

The hindsight bias surrounding that team is enormous.

Typical for many series that Lebron has lost. At no time leading up to that series did anyone think it was this lopsided affair where Lebron had no help and no chance of winning. Now because it was such a beatdown there's this revisionist history that that was the case.

[guy]

I didn't argue that a 4-1 beatdown with 20+ point blowouts was the prediction. I'm not even arguing that the Spurs were a 'super' team( as subjective as that term is). But a lot of fools and their money departed if they thought the Heat were beating the Spurs in 2014, regardless of whether it was lopsided or competitive. As I said, the Heat *barely* won the prior year with the team that won 27 in a row and 66 games. Why would a worse version of the team win in 2014? The Spurs didn't drop off from 2013 to 2014. Whoever thought it was even money were frankly....morons.

That doesn't really mean much. There's plenty of times throughout history where that situation occurred and that "worse version" still won. Shit, the exact same situation happened with the Heat and Pacers that same season.

[Lebron23]

Typical for many series that Lebron has lost. At no time leading up to that series did anyone think it was this lopsided affair where Lebron had no help and no chance of winning. Now because it was such a beatdown there's this revisionist history that that was the case.

In fairness to LeBron. He was the only consistent player for the Heat in the nba finals. He averaged 29 ppg in the 2014 NBA finals after averaging only 22.5 ppg vs the The 2014 Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference Finals. Very happy that the Lakers signed the Pacers Coach who's a great defensive coach. And now they are the best team in the West.

[Phoenix]

i'll tell you two Nostradmus'es what... since your enlightened basketball minds are hovering so far above concrete past sentiment and reality...

Can you please forward me your hottest playoff picks this year that completely destroy the odds so i can put a G down and make some money.

I don't clam to have that kind of vision, or else I'd have made my millions on the stock market and fukked off into the sunset by now. My point is if you were actually following the trends between the two teams that year, that the Heat weren't as good as 2013,and the Spurs were at least *as good*...and people rightfully thought they lost the championship on the most miraculous of clutch shots..... there's no logical reason to have bet against the Spurs in 2014 or at the leas,t act like it's some shock that they won. Doesn't take genius intellect. You're basing your arguments on odds and not on what your own two eyes should have picked up if they were open.

[Phoenix]

That doesn't really mean much. There's plenty of times throughout history where that situation occurred and that "worse version" still won. Shit, the exact same situation happened with the Heat and Pacers that same season.

There's instances of both scenarios so 'that doesn't mean much' can go either way. What happened in 2014 finals is what happened.

[guy]

There's instances of both scenarios so 'that doesn't mean much' can go either way. What happened in 2014 finals is what happened.

True, which is why its not a great argument to use either way. Point is its revisionist history to act like they didn't have enough and a lopsided result should've been expected. Not saying you're saying that, but that is how people, especially Lebron apologists, paint this series.

[Roundball_Rock]

A lot of it is the LeBron factor. A lot of people bet on his teams without factoring anything else in. In that case they were the 2x reigning champs too.


True, which is why its not a great argument to use either way. Point is its revisionist history to act like they didn't have enough and a lopsided result should've been expected

Part of the equation is how bad Miami was the following year without LeBron, which diminished how that "super team" was perceived by many after the fact. On the flip side, Toronto's "cast" looks a lot better to many people this year than last year because they balled without Kawhi despite being perceived as a one man team a year ago.

[Lebron23]

A lot of it is the LeBron factor. A lot of people bet on his teams without factoring anything else in. In that case they were the 2x reigning champs too.



Part of the equation is how bad Miami was the following year without LeBron, which diminished how that "super team" was perceived by many after the fact. On the flip side, Toronto's "cast" looks a lot better to many people this year than last year because they balled without Kawhi despite being perceived as a one man team a year ago.

True. Jordantards getting owned as usual.

[Phoenix]

True, which is why its not a great argument to use either way. Point is its revisionist history to act like they didn't have enough and a lopsided result should've been expected. Not saying you're saying that, but that is how people, especially Lebron apologists, paint this series.

For clarity, I haven't made an argument that the series should have been 'that' lopsided. I think the margin of victory was fueled by the prior year. Spurs thought in their minds that they lost more than the Heat won. *Generally* speaking though, if you just look at 2014 in its own vacuum, the Spurs were still IMO just a better team. If the Heat had any shot in the minds of the betting public, it was by mere virtue of having prime Lebron but we have enough of a sample size now ( remember, coming into 2014 he was 2-2 in the finals)to know that Lebron can be Lebron.....and still end up watching someone else hoisting the trophy more often than not.

[Roundball_Rock]

The other factor is how Wade and Bosh were perceived. They were the same players in 15' (other than their efficiency crashing without LeBron) but magically perceived differently than they were in 14' when people were still going around saying the Heat were the most stacked team of all-time, had 3 superstars, etc.

[Axe]

By 2014 the heat were a shell of their former shelves. I actually thinks that Riley should have surrounded them with younger role players instead of aging veterans. Spurs started the 3 points shooting era by draining several 3 pointers in the nba finals. Even the Spurs role players were making their outside shots.
Their playoff run in 2014 was better than the preceding year since there were no game 7s along the way to the finals

[kawhileonard2]

I'm not sure he would. I'm not arguing if he should or not, but Lebron 0-3 vs Duncan with Duncan having 6 titles while Lebron is 2-7 in the finals? I could see it look alot like Russell vs Wilt, where Russell is usually considered the greater player.

I would say Duncan would for sure be considered top 5 by the majority.

This is true

[Lebron23]

Their playoff run in 2014 was better than the preceding year since there were no game 7s along the way to the finals

Both Wade and Bosh numbers and impact were not that spectacular. That's why both of them missed the playoffs the following year despite adding Goran Dragic.

[Roundball_Rock]

'm not sure he would. I'm not arguing if he should or not, but Lebron 0-3 vs Duncan with Duncan having 6 titles while Lebron is 2-7 in the finals? I could see it look alot like Russell vs Wilt, where Russell is usually considered the greater player.

Duncan has more rings than: Wilt, LeBron, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq.
Duncan has as many rings as: Magic, Kobe.
Duncan has only 1 less ring than: Kareem, Jordan.

If it was legitimately all about rings he would be consensus top 5 already but he is instead at the end of the top 10. Kobe has a similar resume but is considered far greater than Duncan (unfair but obviously how they are perceived). If it is about the fake category of "rings as the man" Duncan would be 3rd.

The rings stuff is an argument of convenience. We see it over and over again on ISH. The same people trumpeting rings suddenly won't say a peep about them when it doesn't suit them.


Both Wade and Bosh numbers and impact were not that spectacular. That's why both of them missed the playoffs the following year despite adding Goran Dragic.

Plus Whiteside and Deng. The next year they added Joe Johnson too.

Meanwhile Toronto is going 46-18 without Kawhi and we still hear how Kawhi won by himself. 46-18=won by yourself; 37-45=super team. :confusedshrug:

[Bronbron23]

I’m gonna be unfun logical guy.

Why do Ray Allen’s fingertip muscles get to define Duncan, LeBron, and possibly even Jordan’s legacies?

The fact that it could make Duncan undefeated in the finals, and put LeBron in the Jerry West/Wilt zone on finals appearances should make everyone say **** rings. They don’t means shit except what team won.

They really don’t even define teams properly half the time. Spurs were better than Miami. OKC was better than EVERYONE that year.

Its not so much about the rings as it is about how you perform on the biggest most difficult stage against the best teams. Weve seen guys make the game look easy in the regular season but then struggle deep in the playoffs where its tougher.

Plus if you say flick rings what to you use? Stats? Accolades? Eye test? Stats snd Accolades can be just as misleading. The eye test is probably the best but even that brings bias into play.

[Axe]

Both Wade and Bosh numbers and impact were not that spectacular. That's why both of them missed the playoffs the following year despite adding Goran Dragic.
Sad to see both folks decline during his tenure with the heat, tbh.

[nashwade]

I’m gonna be unfun logical guy.

Why do Ray Allen’s fingertip muscles get to define Duncan, LeBron, and possibly even Jordan’s legacies?

The fact that it could make Duncan undefeated in the finals, and put LeBron in the Jerry West/Wilt zone on finals appearances should make everyone say **** rings. They don’t means shit except what team won.

They really don’t even define teams properly half the time. Spurs were better than Miami. OKC was better than EVERYONE that year.

wow... i like this perspective

[Elosha]

Nope. We got an idea about this when Kobe looked like he would tie or surpass MJ's 6 rings (which many fans think is the record--the real record is 11). If any GOAT-level player not named Russell gets to 6+ the criteria would suddenly shift to GOAT being about other things. When Kobe was the threat MJ advocates would always say MJ>Kobe because MJ was the better player and argued the quality of his rings was superior. This robotic "ring hugging" is a position of convenience vis-a-vis LeBron that is tailor made for the social media era (so we see 6>3 and 6-0>3-6 spammed daily all over social media). If LeBron gets to 6 (unlikely but possible) or Giannis or Luka does the tune will shift.

Another example is Kareem. He has 6 rings. It is absurd to say making the finals 10 times<making it 6 times. Nonetheless, the argument from MJ advocates is his rings don't count as much. There is always something. Rings are everything, except when someone as many or more. :oldlol:

MJ advocates set the terms of the debate because that is who dominates the media today (especially ESPN, the most powerful sports media entity). As long as that continues, we will keep seeing these contortions to suit the case they proffer for MJ. Let's see what happens when a new generation takes over the media but MJ advocates have controlled the terrain for decades.

Duncan's problem ultimately would be the same as Kobe's: he wasn't as individually dominant as the other players who are constants in the GOAT conversation.

Nah. The basic problem with this argument is that Jordan combined a perfect and extensive 6-0 Finals record with overall consistent GOAT dominance and incredibly iconic and clutch moments. No one - not Duncan, Russell, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron, or anyone else can say the same. Your paragraph above is just retrofitting history.

I know you believe KAJ is GOAT and that's fine. But you also know that Jordan has plenty of arguments to be ahead of him and having KAJ as GOAT is a decidedly minority position.

[Axe]

Nah. The basic problem with this argument is that Jordan combined a perfect and extensive 6-0 Finals record with overall consistent GOAT dominance and incredibly iconic and clutch moments. No one - not Duncan, Russell, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron, or anyone else can say the same. Your paragraph above is just retrofitting history.

I know you believe KAJ is GOAT and that's fine. But you also know that Jordan has plenty of arguments to be ahead of him and having KAJ as GOAT is a decidedly minority position.
Lol that is because 'the 90s were just a watered-down era', according to these so-called basketball experts. :lol

Believe it or not, they'll just raise their own eyebrows at you for thinking that mj is the goat because of his respective accolades and achievements during his whole career, which are only present with the help of his teammates and team officials ofc. So don't be 'insecure' about it. :oldlol:

[guy]

For clarity, I haven't made an argument that the series should have been 'that' lopsided. I think the margin of victory was fueled by the prior year. Spurs thought in their minds that they lost more than the Heat won. *Generally* speaking though, if you just look at 2014 in its own vacuum, the Spurs were still IMO just a better team. If the Heat had any shot in the minds of the betting public, it was by mere virtue of having prime Lebron but we have enough of a sample size now ( remember, coming into 2014 he was 2-2 in the finals)to know that Lebron can be Lebron.....and still end up watching someone else hoisting the trophy more often than not.

Okay, and I don’t see why that’s an odd way of thinking. In almost every Finals series, if you take off the best player from the championship team, they probably wouldn’t have been considered favorites and probably lose. In most cases in the Finals, the best player on one team is a huge difference maker that makes that team better then the other team.

And I disagree that “Lebron was Lebron” that series. 28/7/4 while great for most players is nothing special when you’re one of the greatest and your team is getting hammered. People were wowed by his efficiency that series but that’s just as much of a function of him not being aggressive and probably came at the expense of his team’s overall efficiency. He took a ridiculously low 18 FGA/6 FTA per game, which is pretty bad for the NBA finals. For much of his career he had a relatively flawed approach to the game where he would defer to his teammates no matter what i.e. no matter how bad their shots were off and how bad they were playing – this was a series where he should’ve been more aggressive throughout and drive the momentum that would’ve helped his teammates get it going more, both offensively and defensively. I’ve always thought that although his efficiency was pretty bad in the 2015 finals, if he took that approach in 2014, that’s an entirely different series – they probably either win or at least make it incredibly close like 2013. In 2016, he took 33 FGA/11 FTA per game, literally almost twice the amount, and not coincidentally, it was way more competitive despite him having clearly a weaker cast against arguably a better team. And he didn’t have guys like Wade and Bosh on that team that likely could’ve improved their play with better momentum.

[guy]

Nope. We got an idea about this when Kobe looked like he would tie or surpass MJ's 6 rings (which many fans think is the record--the real record is 11). If any GOAT-level player not named Russell gets to 6+ the criteria would suddenly shift to GOAT being about other things. When Kobe was the threat MJ advocates would always say MJ>Kobe because MJ was the better player and argued the quality of his rings was superior………………..

What incentive does the media have to push the narrative that Jordan, someone that retired 17 years ago, is the GOAT over any current player during that time? They don’t. Which is why they desperately have been trying to make comparisons since he retired, not only with guys that are somewhat worthy like Kobe and Lebron, but even lesser players like Kawhi, Steph, Harden, Giannis, etc.

And we’ve talked about this before, I agree the media is pretty lazy when it comes to their arguments, which is mostly resume-driven and is actually kind of a disservice to the great players like Jordan when all they do is focus on their resume vs what made them great and a big reason why they have the resumes they have. But with that said, if the argument is about resumes, does the media have some agenda for somebody that hasn’t played in years, or isn’t it possible they just think 6 rings as the best player in the more modern era (post-merger or 1980 whatever most people consider it) is the greatest achievement / line on a resume for any NBA player in history? Its not a wildly, crazy view :oldlol:. The main point of the game is to win championships and being the best player implies they contributed the most to those championships. Its not to get to the finals and lose, win individual awards or compile stats.

And this idea that people just change around the argument for Jordan is based on what? You would have a point if someone actually won 6-7 rings as the best player and then the argument changed. That’s never happened. Also, you do realize that the ring argument wasn’t because of Jordan right? I don’t know what the f*ck you were watching, but it started with Kobe. With Kobe, they were desperate to add as much legitimacy to the comparison as they could, so they pumped up his rings, ignoring context – which in this case was a disservice to Kobe since they could’ve focused more on other stuff. The media was pretty certain that Kobe was going to match or surpass Jordan in rings, given he was winning them at a younger age. Once it became pretty clear he wasn’t going to win anymore, basically post-achilles tear, coupled with Lebron’s rise, not coincidentally the comparisons declined. And they moved on to Lebron and since he was so far off from ring count, the Lebron supporters in the media tried to change the argument and downgrade it from rings to just finals appearance. Just because ultimately some people in the media smartly point out that none of those accomplishments were more impressive then Jordan’s doesn’t mean they are contorting the argument.

To your point about rings not counting as much, are you telling me that if Jordan won more than half of his rings with someone that was more dominant and better then him like Kobe did or that he won at least half of his rings as not the best player and a few times as even the third or fourth best player on his team like Kareem did that you wouldn’t look at his rings differently?

[Phoenix]

Okay, and I don’t see why that’s an odd way of thinking. In almost every Finals series, if you take off the best player from the championship team, they probably wouldn’t have been considered favorites and probably lose. In most cases in the Finals, the best player on one team is a huge difference maker that makes that team better then the other team.

And I disagree that “Lebron was Lebron” that series. 28/7/4 while great for most players is nothing special when you’re one of the greatest and your team is getting hammered. People were wowed by his efficiency that series but that’s just as much of a function of him not being aggressive and probably came at the expense of his team’s overall efficiency. He took a ridiculously low 18 FGA/6 FTA per game, which is pretty bad for the NBA finals. For much of his career he had a relatively flawed approach to the game where he would defer to his teammates no matter what i.e. no matter how bad their shots were off and how bad they were playing – this was a series where he should’ve been more aggressive throughout and drive the momentum that would’ve helped his teammates get it going more, both offensively and defensively. I’ve always thought that although his efficiency was pretty bad in the 2015 finals, if he took that approach in 2014, that’s an entirely different series – they probably either win or at least make it incredibly close like 2013. In 2016, he took 33 FGA/11 FTA per game, literally almost twice the amount, and not coincidentally, it was way more competitive despite him having clearly a weaker cast against arguably a better team. And he didn’t have guys like Wade and Bosh on that team that likely could’ve improved their play with better momentum.

Lebron being more aggressive in 2014 ala 2015 doesn't swing the series the other way. The Heat lost their games by 15,19,21, and 17 points. An 18ppg difference. Lebron trying to pull a 2015-like performance may reduce them losing by 18 points a game to what? 10? They still lose so I don't see what difference it makes to the main point being made. The Heat weren't going to beat the Spurs, not how they were playing in that finals, and Lebron would have to go batshit crazy on offense to make it a less embarrassing showing. If these were games being decided by 10 points or less I would say your point about a more aggressive Lebron making the series much closer would be on stronger footing.

Also, when you say 2016 in your last paragraph you mean 2015 I'm assuming. He took 33 shots per in that finals, not 2016. I would also argue that 2015 was a competitive series not only because of Lebron's aggression, but the Warriors in the finals weren't playing at the 2014 Spurs finals level. Hell, you had Matthew Delladova as his second option making for a competitive series. That says as much about the Warriors that series as it does Lebron's own performance.

[guy]

A lot of it is the LeBron factor. A lot of people bet on his teams without factoring anything else in. In that case they were the 2x reigning champs too.
Part of the equation is how bad Miami was the following year without LeBron, which diminished how that "super team" was perceived by many after the fact. On the flip side, Toronto's "cast" looks a lot better to many people this year than last year because they balled without Kawhi despite being perceived as a one man team a year ago.

The with vs without arguments are usually very flawed, and in the 2015 Heat case its really stupid. They had a bunch of injuries and new players. They had 31 different starting lineups, far more then what they had in any year of the Lebron era, and what they had in 2016 when they had fairly close to as good of a regular season as they had in 2014. They literally had only 2 players play more than 70 games. That’s right, only 2 players. And go ahead and point to some other similar situation where the opposite result occurred. The point is it was clearly a volatile situation with a high level of inconsistency so it should be no surprise that they had the type of year they had and should have little if any bearing on what happened in prior seasons when the situation was totally different. Of course I’m sure you’re going to continue to use these incredibly flawed arguments. :oldlol:



Duncan has more rings than: Wilt, LeBron, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq.
Duncan has as many rings as: Magic, Kobe.
Duncan has only 1 less ring than: Kareem, Jordan.

If it was legitimately all about rings he would be consensus top 5 already but he is instead at the end of the top 10. Kobe has a similar resume but is considered far greater than Duncan (unfair but obviously how they are perceived). If it is about the fake category of "rings as the man" Duncan would be 3rd.

The rings stuff is an argument of convenience. We see it over and over again on ISH. The same people trumpeting rings suddenly won't say a peep about them when it doesn't suit them.

I don’t know what you’re talking about but I usually always see Duncan ranked ahead of Kobe, Shaq, and Hakeem. I see him ranked ahead of Bird and Wilt sometimes too. So on average he’s like in that 7-8 range. With 1 more ring, rightly or wrongly he’s climbing over some guys and then Lebron is definitely descending a few spots with 1 less ring and then never beating Duncan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nah. The basic problem with this argument is that Jordan combined a perfect and extensive 6-0 Finals record with overall consistent GOAT dominance and incredibly iconic and clutch moments. No one - not Duncan, Russell, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron, or anyone else can say the same. Your paragraph above is just retrofitting history.


You joined ISH in June of 2014--exactly when the finals record TP emerged. No one was talking finals records before then.

I was talking about 2009-2011 mainly, when Kobe was the "threat" and had a real chance at winning a 6th ring and maybe more. Back then MJ advocates sang a different tune--as I suspect they will if anyone else gets to 6.


I know you believe KAJ is GOAT and that's fine. But you also know that Jordan has plenty of arguments to be ahead of him and having KAJ as GOAT is a decidedly minority position.

The argument from Jordan or anyone else should have little to do with rings. To me it is that he was dominant on both sides of the court, extremely clutch, and had no real weakness in his game. Whether he won 2 rings or 10 or 6 doesn't change his case to me. I was talking about how his case is presented by his advocates in the media and fans (often the same--a ton of MJ fans in the media :oldlol: ).


What incentive does the media have to push the narrative that Jordan, someone that retired 17 years ago, is the GOAT over any current player during that time?

Other than LeBron and Brady, can you name any athlete the media talks about more than Jordan? Why Jordan? None of his long retired contemporaries get talked about 24/7. Every time I tune into one of the sports talk shows there is at least 1 if not multiple MJ segments it seems.

Jordan was marked more than anyone before or after ever was. He also seems to benefit from being non-controversial and sanitized. These days a lot of stars take stands on issues and hence alienate segments of the population. Moreover, with the proliferation of sports media they get scrutinized and thereby diminished since no one is perfect. Jordan is the last major figure before the internet, social media, 24/7 multiple sports channels, etc. era. People act like he never had a bad game or missed a shot. "MJ would never..." is a punch line at this point. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

And this idea that people just change around the argument for Jordan is based on what? You would have a point if someone actually won 6-7 rings as the best player and then the argument changed

What were you and fellow MJ stans saying when Kobe was threatening to get to 6 or more?


To your point about rings not counting as much, are you telling me that if Jordan won more than half of his rings with someone that was more dominant and better then him like Kobe did or that he won at least half of his rings as not the best player and a few times as even the third or fourth best player on his team like Kareem did that you wouldn’t look at his rings differently?

Context matters--but that isn't what we hear these days. We simply see rings tallied up (when convenient). 6>3. That ends the discussion. That's the line.

Somehow Duncan with 5, 4 as "the man" and 5-1 in the finals isn't even top 5. That exposes the ring argument for what it is without even getting to Russell.


The with vs without arguments are usually very flawed, and in the 2015 Heat case its really stupid. They had a bunch of injuries and new players

Those changes obscure how bad the Heat really were without LeBron. Adding Dragic, Whiteside salvaged 37-45 for them by going 15-15 after the break. If it weren't for those guys, factoring in Bosh went out around the same time, does Miami win even 30?


The injury excuse doesn't hold up. When Wade, Bosh both played the team still was at a sub-40 win pace. It also acts like Wade was an iron man before 2015. He was healthier in 15' than 14'. The starting lineup excuse doesn't hold up either. They added Whiteside, Dragic mid-season so that created another set of starting lineups--which as noted earlier boosted the team. In 2014 they didn't add 2 new starters mid-season (and they came at different times so you have a set of lineups with Whiteside, without Dragic and then another set with both).

You just said earlier context for rings matters--but we aren't supposed to factor in raw team strength sans the best player? This is what I mean. Context matters selectively. :oldlol:


I don’t know what you’re talking about but I usually always see Duncan ranked ahead of Kobe, Shaq, and Hakeem. I see him ranked ahead of Bird and Wilt sometimes too. So on average he’s like in that 7-8 range

I was thinking more about fans, not experts. Fans have Kobe 2-4 and Duncan around 10th. Or just look at the player's poll. MJ 1st, LeBron 2nd, Kobe 3rd, KAJ 4th, Durant/Iverson/Magic 5th. I bring players' up since their "all-time" rankings mirror what you see from fans on social media.

[guy]

Lebron being more aggressive in 2014 ala 2015 doesn't swing the series the other way. The Heat lost their games by 15,19,21, and 17 points. An 18ppg difference. Lebron trying to pull a 2015-like performance may reduce them losing by 18 points a game to what? 10? They still lose so I don't see what difference it makes to the main point being made. The Heat weren't going to beat the Spurs, not how they were playing in that finals, and Lebron would have to go batshit crazy on offense to make it a less embarrassing showing. If these were games being decided by 10 points or less I would say your point about a more aggressive Lebron making the series much closer would be on stronger footing.

Also, when you say 2016 in your last paragraph you mean 2015 I'm assuming. He took 33 shots per in that finals, not 2016.
Disagree. Game doesn’t work like that. Set a more aggressive tone from the beginning, offensively and defensively, and what happens afterward is likely completely different. You’re also looking at it somewhat simplistically. I’m not saying he had to swing every game. But if he had that approach throughout the series, every game is not only closer but they at the very least probably swing 1 of those 4 games. That’s all they needed to ensure a game 6 in Miami, which is the exact same position they were in the previous year. At that point, anything could’ve happened, as it did in 2013.

Yes meant 2015, my bad.

[tpols]

Lebron being more aggressive in 2014 ala 2015 doesn't swing the series the other way. The Heat lost their games by 15,19,21, and 17 points. An 18ppg difference. Lebron trying to pull a 2015-like performance may reduce them losing by 18 points a game to what? 10? They still lose so I don't see what difference it makes to the main point being made. The Heat weren't going to beat the Spurs, not how they were playing in that finals, and Lebron would have to go batshit crazy on offense to make it a less embarrassing showing. If these were games being decided by 10 points or less I would say your point about a more aggressive Lebron making the series much closer would be on stronger footing.

Also, when you say 2016 in your last paragraph you mean 2015 I'm assuming. He took 33 shots per in that finals, not 2016. I would also argue that 2015 was a competitive series not only because of Lebron's aggression, but the Warriors in the finals weren't playing at the 2014 Spurs finals level. Hell, you had Matthew Delladova as his second option making for a competitive series. That says as much about the Warriors that series as it does Lebron's own performance.

i agree with guy that it sure could've.

Games 3-5 were won on early momentum. They would score, heat were passive and would miss, and then they just kept riding the subsequent momentum as the score widened.

It is statistically proven that Lebron took most of his shots AFTER they got hit with the tidal wave.

If he would've taken them before it, he could've halted their momentum and given his team a shot.

[Phoenix]

Disagree. Game doesn’t work like that. Set a more aggressive tone from the beginning, offensively and defensively, and what happens afterward is likely completely different. You’re also looking at it somewhat simplistically. I’m not saying he had to swing every game. But if he had that approach throughout the series, every game is not only closer but they at the very least probably swing 1 of those 4 games. That’s all they needed to ensure a game 6 in Miami, which is the exact same position they were in the previous year. At that point, anything could’ve happened, as it did in 2013.

Yes meant 2015, my bad.

But you act as though Lebron setting out a more aggressive tone leaves the Spurs helpless and dumbfounded as to how to counteract it. They aren't going to roll over into the fetal position because Lebron decides to set a different tone from the start.

The biggest issue with the Heat asides from the lack of relative firepower to combat how hot the Spurs were, they didn't have the defense to stop San Antonio. They gave up 106ppg, for reference if you look at league scoring that season that number would be the 4th most points in the league. The Heat couldn't stop them. That reality doesn't change because you want to double down on this idea that Lebron alone through greater aggression shifts the series. Alot of coulda, shoulda, if he does this than 'that' happens. You can play that game with anything. Spurs were 47% on 118 3's. That's reality. You're going to lose alot of the time when a team shoots like that. What Lebron 'could' have done are great theories but that's the extent of what they are.

Same point goes towards Tpols post so I don't need to expend the energy addressing his separately.

[guy]

Other than LeBron and Brady, can you name any athlete the media talks about more than Jordan? Why Jordan? None of his long retired contemporaries get talked about 24/7. Every time I tune into one of the sports talk shows there is at least 1 if not multiple MJ segments it seems.

The media talks about what the fans want to talk about, and Jordan is still loved by a lot of fans so he’s talked about a lot.

But what is the incentive to “push” Jordan as still the GOAT? There is none. For the most part, they just call it like they and most of us see it. Because it makes absolutely no business sense for the NBA and the media to continue to want Jordan pushed as the GOAT over a current player, which is why they TRY to make arguments for other current players - those arguments are just usually pretty weak. They wouldn’t want Jordan to remain GOAT. They’d want a current player to be considered the GOAT, cause that would drive up current interest in the sport way more then someone who hasn’t played in nearly 20 years.

Save us the bullshit. Taking a stand against Trump and for BLM isn’t controversial in today’s age. That’s low hanging fruit. Taking a stand against things like China is, and we saw what happened when that came up.

What were you and fellow MJ stans saying when Kobe was threatening to get to 6 or more?

Well for me, when it came to rings, I like many always pointed out that Kobe’s first 3 rings really aren’t comparable to any of Jordan’s for obvious reasons, so I don’t really apply here to what you’re saying.

For the people, largely in the media, that said Kobe could arguably be better than Jordan if he wins 6 or more, they stopped making that claim once it became clear he wasn’t getting there. So where is the change in argument? You’re just making up shit. :oldlol:



Context matters--but that isn't what we hear these days. We simply see rings tallied up (when convenient). 6>3. That ends the discussion. That's the line.


You literally didn’t answer my question.



Somehow Duncan with 5, 4 as "the man" and 5-1 in the finals isn't even top 5. That exposes the ring argument for what it is without even getting to Russell.


He’s like top 7-8 like I said. 1 more ring with another GOAT player having 1 less ring and moving down a few spots resulting in him moving up a few spots isn’t some unreasonable conclusion.



Those changes obscure how bad the Heat really were without LeBron. Adding Dragic, Whiteside salvaged 37-45 for them by going 15-15 after the break. If it weren't for those guys, factoring in Bosh went out around the same time, does Miami win even 30?


15-15 vs 22-30 is some amazing difference that can’t just be attributed to the fact that the season moves in ebbs and flows as opposed to teams just performing evenly across the season?

You’re making my point for me. They had a million changes that completely obscure any type of relationship to prior seasons. The games Wade and Bosh played together don’t factor in how much they both as well their teammates were in and out of the lineup and what kind of impact that had on chemistry and consistency, not to mention motivation levels and guys eventually feeling that it’s a “lost season” anyway. You bringing this up means nothing.

[getting_old]

Ray practised that shot 10,000 times, even when the lights were off in the arena.

Just in case it might happen for him.

He was that obsessed....

[guy]

But you act as though Lebron setting out a more aggressive tone leaves the Spurs helpless and dumbfounded as to how to counteract it. The biggest issue with the Heat asides from the lack of relative firepower to combat how hot the Spurs were, they didn't have the defense to stop San Antonio. That reality doesn't change because you want to double down on this idea that Lebron alone through greater aggression shifts the series. Alot of coulda, shoulda, if he does this than 'that' happens. You can play that game with anything. Spurs were 47% on 118 3's. That's reality. You're going to lose alot of the time when a team shoots like that. What Lebron 'could' have done are great theories but that's the extent of what they are.

Same point goes towards Tpols post so I don't need to expend the energy addressing his separately.

No, which is why I only said that at the very least the Heat swing one of those games. That would mean the Spurs would’ve been up 3-2 still.

The hot shooting and poor defense is likely impacted by changes in momentum. Its not the only series in history where this was the case. To what degree, who knows, but all these little things add up.

I bring up what Lebron “could have done” because he usually has been given a ton of excuses to the point that revisionist history is made about him i.e. the Heat had no shot in the 2014 finals. His fans just hide behind his stats and that’s that, it must’ve been this totally unwinnable series for him.

[Roundball_Rock]

The media talks about what the fans want to talk about, and Jordan is still loved by a lot of fans so he’s talked about a lot.

Exactly--which translates into $$$ for the media via ratings, clicks, downloads, etc.. The media has an incentive to keep the MJ train going. Since he is retired, keeping him at center stage takes a special effort. With LeBron or Brady you can simply talk about what they are actually doing.


Taking a stand against Trump and for BLM isn’t controversial in today’s age. That’s low hanging fruit

Trump is at 36% the last time I checked. Are you saying those 36% don't buy sneakers too? I know a guy who can set you straight on that.


Well for me, when it came to rings, I like many always pointed out that Kobe’s first 3 rings really aren’t comparable to any of Jordan’s for obvious reasons, so I don’t really apply here to what you’re saying.

Which is part of what I said in my first post in this thread: it was never about mindless ring counting until it became convenient against LeBron. With Kobe there was nuance--the same would have happened with Duncan.

Eventually someone will break the "record" of 6 rings. I don't think MJ stans will fold and adopt that guy as GOAT. They simply will shift their stated criteria.


You’re making my point for me. They had a million changes that completely obscure any type of relationship to prior seasons.

This isn't a science experiment. You are never going to get exactly the same roster minus one guy the next season. Every team has turnover year to year. How a team does without a player is the best gauge we have for how strong that team was. Within season is better--less moving parts--and Miami's performance in 2015 is consistent with what they did from 2011-2014 without LeBron. It didn't come out of nowhere. They just weren't that good without him.

Teams can't boiled down to just comparing who their all-stars were. You have to look at their performance on the court, with and without the best player, and what the opposition looked like. MJ stans want to always make it about big names on paper, not on court results--so "only Pippen" versus Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love. That isn't the entire team. Jordan stans themselves a week or so ago were saying the Bulls "cast" without MJ>the Rockets (NBA champs :lol ) cast or the Spurs' cost and was equal to the Knicks' cast (without the Bulls even having a starting SG so imagine the Bulls with MJ and 4 NBA starters alongside him). Logically, if that entire team becomes a "cast" with MJ then that means...but the MJ crowd wants it every which way depending on the agenda du jour. :lol

[Phoenix]

No, which is why I only said that at the very least the Heat swing one of those games. That would mean the Spurs would’ve been up 3-2 still.

The hot shooting and poor defense is likely impacted by changes in momentum. Its not the only series in history where this was the case. To what degree, who knows, but all these little things add up.

I bring up what Lebron “could have done” because he usually has been given a ton of excuses to the point that revisionist history is made about him i.e. the Heat had no shot in the 2014 finals. His fans just hide behind his stats and that’s that, it must’ve been this totally unwinnable series for him.

If the best case scenario is he swings a game and they end up losing 4-2, what does it matter? You're putting energy into an argument where the difference at best likely ends up being half a mile instead of a mile. We're pissing up a tree here. There's a middle ground where Lebron plays more aggressively and this has some net affect on the team that leads to a more competitive series, but that's the likely best case. Too much else would need to change very drastically for the end result to be different.

[light]

That's why LeBron wanted Ray on his team. It's a make or miss league, as they say. You get nowhere by missing.

Kawhi recruits PG - he'll regret that. LeBron recruits Ray Allen - didn't regret it.

LeBron's and Allen's threes at the end of game 6 was the point. They brought Miami back. Then LeBron closed it out in epic LeBron Game 7 fashion.

[Axe]

That's why LeBron wanted Ray on his team. It's a make or miss league, as they say. You get nowhere by missing.

Kawhi recruits PG - he'll regret that. LeBron recruits Ray Allen - didn't regret it.

LeBron's and Allen's threes at the end of game 6 was the point. They brought Miami back. Then LeBron closed it out in epic LeBron Game 7 fashion.
Lol the celtics just defeated the cavaliers in the postseason twice before 2011

[light]

Lol the celtics just defeated the cavaliers in the postseason twice before 2011

Yeah we know all about that. 1 vs Boston.

https://www.nbafutures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2010-cavs-celtics.jpg

What's your point?

[Axe]

Yeah we know all about that. 1 vs Boston.

https://www.nbafutures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2010-cavs-celtics.jpg

What's your point?
One word: reasons :oldlol:

Also, ain't that the same cavs team that just got into the 2007 finals but ultimately got swept by the spurs way back then?

[ELITEpower23]

Nah. The basic problem with this argument is that Jordan combined a perfect and extensive 6-0 Finals record with overall consistent GOAT dominance and incredibly iconic and clutch moments. No one - not Duncan, Russell, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron, or anyone else can say the same. Your paragraph above is just retrofitting history.

I know you believe KAJ is GOAT and that's fine. But you also know that Jordan has plenty of arguments to be ahead of him and having KAJ as GOAT is a decidedly minority position.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but Jordan does not have a "perfect record." Nobody does. Bill Russell is the closest to that, winning a ring in 11 of 13 seasons played. MJ is 6 of 15. Meaning he "lost" 9 times.

2x No playoffs
3x 1st round
3x 2nd round
1x ECF

MJ lost in the first round many times, look above. And he lost in the second round as well. And the ECF. If you really boil his career success down to one component its Scottie Pippen. The five years that he did not play with Scottie Pippen he won literally one playoff game. Very far from perfect but nice try anyway. If you need more education just ask, we are here to help the beginners.

[WhiteKyrie]

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

A lot of what-ifs that series...like what if he didn't miss this gimme down 2 with 48 seconds left of Game 7
Not enough criticisms of Duncan’s failures. 2004 bronze Olympics etc. This example as well. And he never could go back to back.

That Duncan choke job, poor coaching decisions from Pop and a miracle bounce / rebound and Hail Mary shot from Ray Allen away from LeBron being 2 fer 9 in the Finals.

:facepalm

[ELITEpower23]

Not enough criticisms of Duncan’s failures. 2004 bronze Olympics etc. This example as well. And he never could go back to back.

That Duncan choke job, poor coaching decisions from Pop and a miracle bounce / rebound and Hail Mary shot from Ray Allen away from LeBron being 2 fer 9 in the Finals.

:facepalm

Ehh, that Ray Allen shot was to tie it, plus it was only game 6. Miami still won game 6 in OT to force a game 7.

Did you miss game 7 of the 2013 NBA Finals? Argubaly the GOAT Finals game carry. We are here to help the beginners, any other questions just ask away!

[Axe]

Ehh, that Ray Allen shot was to tie it, plus it was only game 6. Miami still won game 6 in OT to force a game 7.

Did you miss game 7 of the 2013 NBA Finals? Argubaly the GOAT Finals game carry. We are here to help the beginners, any other questions just ask away!
Ray allen saved the day for the heat; otherwise, it could have been over.

Btw, this was already 7 years ago. Damn, i feel too old already.

[Whoah10115]

I can't understand why people keep responding to this guy about Jordan.

Lol he wants what he wants. Let it be.

[Hey Yo]

Not enough criticisms of Duncan’s failures. 2004 bronze Olympics etc. This example as well. And he never could go back to back.

That Duncan choke job, poor coaching decisions from Pop and a miracle bounce / rebound and Hail Mary shot from Ray Allen away from LeBron being 2 fer 9 in the Finals.

:facepalm
:oldlol::oldlol:

Imagine referring to a corner 3 as a Hail Mary shot.

[tpols]

:oldlol::oldlol:

Imagine referring to a corner 3 as a Hail Mary shot.

off a last second offensive rebound?

yes that whole sequence was hail mary.

[Hey Yo]

off a last second offensive rebound?

yes that whole sequence was hail mary.
There was 5.3 seconds left when the 3 went in. The shortest distance on the court for a 3pt shot is not considered a Hail Mary.

[SouBeachTalents]

If the best case scenario is he swings a game and they end up losing 4-2, what does it matter? You're putting energy into an argument where the difference at best likely ends up being half a mile instead of a mile. We're pissing up a tree here. There's a middle ground where Lebron plays more aggressively and this has some net affect on the team that leads to a more competitive series, but that's the likely best case. Too much else would need to change very drastically for the end result to be different.
For real, why are they so hellbent on trying to argue a scenario where the Heat lose in 6 games instead of 5. LeBron legitimately causes some of the most illogical arguments on here :lol What killed the Heat was LeBron cramping up in Game 1, that changed the series more than anything that he did or didn't do in the last 3 games


i agree with guy that it sure could've.

Games 3-5 were won on early momentum. They would score, heat were passive and would miss, and then they just kept riding the subsequent momentum as the score widened.

It is statistically proven that Lebron took most of his shots AFTER they got hit with the tidal wave.

If he would've taken them before it, he could've halted their momentum and given his team a shot.
If you pulled those statistics out your ass, sure

LeBron scored 14 of his 22 points in the 1st quarter in Game 3, and the Heat still trailed 41-25. Definitely LeBron's lack of aggression that hurt them here
LeBron scored 17 of his 31 points in the 1st quarter quarter in Game 5, a game they ended up losing by 17 points
Even Game 4, where that argument would actually have some validity, LeBron scored 19 points in the 3rd, and the Spurs still outscored them 26-21

So LeBron clearly scored most of his points early in the game, and his aggressiveness was still met with deficits


There was 5.3 seconds left when the 3 went in. The shortest distance on the court for a 3pt shot is not considered a Hail Mary.
Coming back from down 5 with 28 seconds left is absolutely a Hail Mary scenario. And when you factor in how it happened, Spurs missing a FT 2 straight trips with reliable FT shooters and the Heat recovering TWO missed 3's and converting them to makes, that is absolutely a miracle finish. If those last 30 seconds are played 100 times the Spurs win 99 times

[tpols]

Fpr real, why are they so hellbent on trying to argue a scenario where the Heat lose in 6 games instead of 5. LeBron legitimately causes some of the most illogical arguments on here :lol What killed the Heat was LeBron cramping up in Game 1, that changed the series more than anything that he did or didn't do in the last 3 games


If you pulled those statistics out your ass, sure

LeBron scored 14 of his 22 points in the 1st quarter in Game 3, and the Heat still trailed 41-25. Definitely LeBron's lack of aggression that hurt them here
LeBron scored 17 of his 31 points in the 1st quarter quarter in Game 5, a game they ended up losing by 17 points
Even Game 4, where that argument would actually have some validity, LeBron scored 19 points in the 3rd, and the Spurs still outscored them 26-21

So LeBron clearly scored most of his points early in the game, and his aggressiveness was still met with deficits


Coming back from down 5 with 28 seconds left is absolutely a Hail Mary scenario. And when you factor in how it happened, Spurs missing a FT 2 straight trips with reliable FT shooters and the Heat recovering TWO missed 3's and converting them to makes, that is absolutely a miracle finish. If those last 30 seconds are played 100 times the Spurs win 99 times

the stats show that he scored much more when the score was already blowout. eye test did too, but you guys dont take that.

i dont have them, but i remember it. please trust me bro.

[WhiteKyrie]

off a last second offensive rebound?

yes that whole sequence was hail mary.
Someone understands, at least.

[SouBeachTalents]

the stats show that he scored much more when the score was already blowout. eye test did too, but you guys dont take that.

i dont have them, but i remember it. please trust me bro.
They clearly don't show that at all :oldlol: He scored the majority of his points in the 1st quarter in both Games 3 & 5. So even if that were the case, it'd be heavily skewed by Game 4, but it factually wasn't the case in 2/3 of the games

[Phoenix]

*When* Lebron scores his points doesn't really matter in this context. Again, I'm going to repeat that the Spurs shot 47% on 118 threes. Unless you're arguing that Lebron scoring more 'timely' and 'aggressively' 1) has the effect of somehow making the Spurs either shoot considerably worse and/or the Heat playing significantly better defensively to meet the challenge, 2) Wade doing better as a 2nd option than 15/4/3 50% TS?

I'll draw you up a scenario, since we're creating them, where the Heat win this series. Take 2012 ECFs Lebron, 2011 finals Wade, 2011 ECFs Bosh, and 2012 finals Mike Miller doing his best game 5 but over a series. I like their chances then.

[Horatio33]

Spurs wouldn't have won in 2014. They were incredibly motivated to win after the heartbreak in 2013.

[Horatio33]

the stats show that he scored much more when the score was already blowout. eye test did too, but you guys dont take that.

i dont have them, but i remember it. please trust me bro.

You're talking out of your arse. I'm a Spurs fan and the Spurs were incredible, but Born was the only reliable scorer on the Heat.

We all know you're biased, but your bias blinds you. That Heat team was Lebron, broken down Wade, missing Bosh and the rest of the roster was either old and tired, or not good enough.

[Elosha]

I hate to be the one to break it to you but Jordan does not have a "perfect record." Nobody does. Bill Russell is the closest to that, winning a ring in 11 of 13 seasons played. MJ is 6 of 15. Meaning he "lost" 9 times.

2x No playoffs
3x 1st round
3x 2nd round
1x ECF

MJ lost in the first round many times, look above. And he lost in the second round as well. And the ECF. If you really boil his career success down to one component its Scottie Pippen. The five years that he did not play with Scottie Pippen he won literally one playoff game. Very far from perfect but nice try anyway. If you need more education just ask, we are here to help the beginners.

I hate to break it to you, but you need to work on your reading comprehension. We were talking about Finals records/dominance, not every year of career. But if you want to play that game, Jordans 6/15 is better than practically anyone out there except Bill Russell. And all you need to do is look at the era Russell played in and actually watch Russell's highlights, and his level of competition, and his rather pedestrian offensive stats, you will know that while he is great, , and an advanced and ahead of his time defensive player, he is not the GOAT. ATG, clearly not GOAT.

I've been on this board since 2014. I'm 46 years old, played competitively in high school basketball and continue to play at every age since then. I have been watching the NBA avidly since 1982. Trust me when I say this. I don't need some newcomer who's probably about 18 to 20 years old to tell me anything about basketball. You should keep your mouth shut and learn from those who know far more than you.

[guy]

Exactly--which translates into $$$ for the media via ratings, clicks, downloads, etc.. The media has an incentive to keep the MJ train going. Since he is retired, keeping him at center stage takes a special effort. With LeBron or Brady you can simply talk about what they are actually doing.

So you’re just going to completely disregard the much more relevant 2nd part of my response? :oldlol:

It doesn’t take a genius to understand that having a Michael Jordan/GOAT player today makes much more business sense then having a Michael Jordan/GOAT player 20 years ago, which is the case we live with today. So to purposefully market the league that way by “protecting” Jordan’s GOAT status is pretty f*cking stupid if that’s the NBA/media’s intent, which its not. If you can’t see the logic behind that, then I don’t know what else to tell you.



Trump is at 36% the last time I checked. Are you saying those 36% don't buy sneakers too? I know a guy who can set you straight on that.

I’m sure 36% of the population buys sneakers. Is that 36% buying sneakers based on NBA players’ political stances? Probably a small subset is. Lebron is not the only NBA star to go against Trump and support BLM, a bunch have – so a Trump supporter is likely not an NBA fan anyway or they are and don’t really care about what NBA players think politically. Shit, Lebron coming off Cleveland’s first championship in forever publicly endorsed Hillary and Trump still won Ohio. Did Ohio turn against Lebron at that point? Its not some incredible thing for Lebron to take the stances he takes. On the other hand, given what was on the line for Lebron in China and the type of measures China was actually taking against the NBA for their actions, that actually would’ve been something.

I’m sure there are some right wingers that would be Lebron fans otherwise if he wasn’t as vocal about his stances. But I’m also sure that’s more then made up for by people that buy into these incredibly ridiculously narratives that he’s the Ali of this era :oldlol:.



Which is part of what I said in my first post in this thread: it was never about mindless ring counting until it became convenient against LeBron. With Kobe there was nuance--the same would have happened with Duncan.

No, again, you’re wrong. It became about mindless ring counting when it became convenient for Kobe. Some tried to change the argument for Lebron to be about just finals appearances, and then some reinforced the rings argument given the natural counterpoint to finals appearances would be rings i.e. finals appearances you actually win in :oldlol:



Eventually someone will break the "record" of 6 rings. I don't think MJ stans will fold and adopt that guy as GOAT. They simply will shift their stated criteria.

Well that’s a nice theory and based on absolutely nothing given no one has done that since Jordan retired so you don’t have any reason to believe that.

[guy]

This isn't a science experiment. You are never going to get exactly the same roster minus one guy the next season. Every team has turnover year to year.


Which is why it’s a stupid argument. You consistently boil everything down to them missing that one player. So for their 17 win decline, sure obviously some of that had to do with Lebron. What about losing Ray Allen and Shane Battier? What about the consistently different lineups they had throughout the season? How motivated were they given all the injuries and numerous roster changes? How much did they care about basketball when Chris Bosh’s life was literally on the line? How did their practice habits change? How do you quantify each and every one of those things? Cause each and every one of those things could be a few games on their own. That’s the point. There’s different variables, and especially when you have as many as they had, its stupid to boil it down to 1 variable and try to compare that to other situations.

That team had a ton of turnover within the season, not just year to year.



How a team does without a player is the best gauge we have for how strong that team was.

Its actually not that relevant and meaningful in my opinion. Teams/organizations react differently to that situation. Some might get less confident and less motivated losing their best player. Some might not lose any confidence and get even more motivated with something to prove. But obviously those factors do not have any bearing on how they perform when their best player was on the actual roster. And from year to year, players naturally can get notably better or worse. Then you look at other factors such as those that I mentioned above with the Heat example, including factors that we may not be that privy too. And then on top of that, if the team’s system revolves so much around 1 player like basically all of Lebron’s teams have done, while teams like the 90s Bulls and Duncan’s Spurs do not, you should expect a bigger decline when that guy is not on the roster, especially if we are talking about within season when there is less time to adjust.

[Hey Yo]

Coming back from down 5 with 28 seconds left is absolutely a Hail Mary scenario. And when you factor in how it happened, Spurs missing a FT 2 straight trips with reliable FT shooters and the Heat recovering TWO missed 3's and converting them to makes, that is absolutely a miracle finish. If those last 30 seconds are played 100 times the Spurs win 99 times
The entire scenario wasn't what was brought up though. He said that Bosh's rebound and Ray's make was a miracle / hail mary sequence. The guy with the most 3pt makes in NBA history, making a corner 3, is not a miracle. Chris Dudley or Joel Anthony making a corner 3 in that sequence would be considered a miracle. Making a 3/4 court heave with time running down would be considered a miracle / hail mary shot.

[guy]

If the best case scenario is he swings a game and they end up losing 4-2, what does it matter? You're putting energy into an argument where the difference at best likely ends up being half a mile instead of a mile. We're pissing up a tree here. There's a middle ground where Lebron plays more aggressively and this has some net affect on the team that leads to a more competitive series, but that's the likely best case. Too much else would need to change very drastically for the end result to be different.

I said swinging a game with that approach is likely the worst case scenario, not the best. And thats just of those 5 games, so that would mean it would be 3-2, so who knows what may happen after that.



*When* Lebron scores his points doesn't really matter in this context. Again, I'm going to repeat that the Spurs shot 47% on 118 threes. Unless you're arguing that Lebron scoring more 'timely' and 'aggressively' 1) has the effect of somehow making the Spurs either shoot considerably worse and/or the Heat playing significantly better defensively to meet the challenge, 2) Wade doing better as a 2nd option than 15/4/3 50% TS?

It could definitely potentially have those effects. The game is about momentum and runs. The Spurs could absolutely get less confident and shoot worse. The Heat could play better defensively if their energy was better given a closer game and being inspired by Lebron’s play. Wade could definitely have started to play better with less pressure if Lebron was more aggressive and opening up easier opportunities for everyone.

[Phoenix]

I said swinging a game with that approach is likely the worst case scenario, not the best. And thats just of those 5 games, so that would mean it would be 3-2, so who knows what may happen after that.



It could definitely potentially have those effects. The game is about momentum and runs. The Spurs could absolutely get less confident and shoot worse. The Heat could play better defensively if their energy was better given a closer game and being inspired by Lebron’s play. Wade could definitely have started to play better with less pressure if Lebron was more aggressive and opening up easier opportunities for everyone.

Are we really still doing this? Mate, you keep to your side of the fence and I'll stick to mine on this one. What happened is what happened like I said 10 posts ago. If you're convinced enough that Lebron playing differently from jump causes a net chain reaction of coulds and ifs that swings an 18ppg 5 game blow-out into something different, nothing to the contrary is going to convince you otherwise and it's not my MO to try doing so.

[guy]

Are we really still doing this? Mate, you keep to your side of the fence and I'll stick to mine on this one. What happened is what happened like I said 10 posts ago. If you're convinced enough that Lebron playing differently from jump causes a net chain reaction of coulds and ifs that swings an 18ppg 5 game blow-out into something different, nothing to the contrary is going to convince you otherwise and it's not my MO to try doing so.

:oldlol:sorry my bad. I’m not on here everyday to respond like some. Agree to disagree. Carry on.

[FireDavidKahn]

And what if X player on any team made a play earlier in the game so that the team wouldn't have even been in this position?

[Phoenix]

:oldlol:sorry my bad. I’m not on here everyday to respond like some. Agree to disagree. Carry on.

I'm probably on here too often as is. I had just largely moved on from this discussion.

Anyways you're talking about a ripple effect and yes I get that.....but..... 'what IFs' have a dead-end point where the opposing sides mostly end up digging their heels in deeper.

[outofstomach]

What incentive does the media have to push the narrative that Jordan, someone that retired 17 years ago, is the GOAT over any current player during that time? They don’t. Which is why they desperately have been trying to make comparisons since he retired, not only with guys that are somewhat worthy like Kobe and Lebron, but even lesser players like Kawhi, Steph, Harden, Giannis, etc.

And we’ve talked about this before, I agree the media is pretty lazy when it comes to their arguments, which is mostly resume-driven and is actually kind of a disservice to the great players like Jordan when all they do is focus on their resume vs what made them great and a big reason why they have the resumes they have. But with that said, if the argument is about resumes, does the media have some agenda for somebody that hasn’t played in years, or isn’t it possible they just think 6 rings as the best player in the more modern era (post-merger or 1980 whatever most people consider it) is the greatest achievement / line on a resume for any NBA player in history? Its not a wildly, crazy view :oldlol:. The main point of the game is to win championships and being the best player implies they contributed the most to those championships. Its not to get to the finals and lose, win individual awards or compile stats.

And this idea that people just change around the argument for Jordan is based on what? You would have a point if someone actually won 6-7 rings as the best player and then the argument changed. That’s never happened. Also, you do realize that the ring argument wasn’t because of Jordan right? I don’t know what the f*ck you were watching, but it started with Kobe. With Kobe, they were desperate to add as much legitimacy to the comparison as they could, so they pumped up his rings, ignoring context – which in this case was a disservice to Kobe since they could’ve focused more on other stuff. The media was pretty certain that Kobe was going to match or surpass Jordan in rings, given he was winning them at a younger age. Once it became pretty clear he wasn’t going to win anymore, basically post-achilles tear, coupled with Lebron’s rise, not coincidentally the comparisons declined. And they moved on to Lebron and since he was so far off from ring count, the Lebron supporters in the media tried to change the argument and downgrade it from rings to just finals appearance. Just because ultimately some people in the media smartly point out that none of those accomplishments were more impressive then Jordan’s doesn’t mean they are contorting the argument.

To your point about rings not counting as much, are you telling me that if Jordan won more than half of his rings with someone that was more dominant and better then him like Kobe did or that he won at least half of his rings as not the best player and a few times as even the third or fourth best player on his team like Kareem did that you wouldn’t look at his rings differently?
this might be the highest IQ post ive read yet, wow

[Manny98]

I just realized LeBron would be 2/10 in the finals if not for the two biggest bailout shots in NBA history

[Axe]

I just realized LeBron would be 2/10 in the finals if not for the two biggest bailout shots in NBA history
And two of those rings also came from two regular seasons with less than the usual 82 games played.

[8Ball]

8 years later this shot still brings so much pain and agony to fans of Jordan. I love it.

When they bring this up they bring up one of the most joyful moments of my adult life.


Sitting there at the bar. Spurs fans jumping up and down. Jordan stans yelling out Bron sucks. That shot made them go silent and the bar erupts like a god damn volcano. Everyone knew the game was over. Series was over.


The Jordan fan sitting there in a corner never spoke another word that night. When game was over he sat there silent while entire bar was jumping up and down. I can only imagine that moment scarred him for life. His soul was ripped out. Devastated. He 100% either cried in the car or he didn't sleep all night. I slept like a baby that night. Woke up more fresh than any morning I ever woke up to. I took the next day off and just enjoyed myself.


I will never forget that night. Better than seeing my 1st born come out :roll:

[ELITEpower23]

What if he didn't?

Rebound Bosh - back out to Allen...His 3 pointer...BaaAaaaAng!

[ELITEpower23]

8 years later this shot still brings so much pain and agony to fans of Jordan. I love it.

When they bring this up they bring up one of the most joyful moments of my adult life.


Sitting there at the bar. Spurs fans jumping up and down. Jordan stans yelling out Bron sucks. That shot made them go silent and the bar erupts like a god damn volcano. Everyone knew the game was over. Series was over.


The Jordan fan sitting there in a corner never spoke another word that night. When game was over he sat there silent while entire bar was jumping up and down. I can only imagine that moment scarred him for life. His soul was ripped out. Devastated. He 100% either cried in the car or he didn't sleep all night. I slept like a baby that night. Woke up more fresh than any morning I ever woke up to. I took the next day off and just enjoyed myself.


I will never forget that night. Better than seeing my 1st born come out :roll:

Poetic beauty right here and Jordan stans knew it was over for them. The gap was closing fast, then 2016 happened.

[Manny98]

And two of those rings also came from two regular seasons with less than the usual 82 games played.
Yikes, should they even count as full rings :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

I’m gonna be unfun logical guy.

Why do Ray Allen’s fingertip muscles get to define Duncan, LeBron, and possibly even Jordan’s legacies?

The fact that it could make Duncan undefeated in the finals, and put LeBron in the Jerry West/Wilt zone on finals appearances should make everyone say **** rings. They don’t means shit except what team won.

They really don’t even define teams properly half the time. Spurs were better than Miami. OKC was better than EVERYONE that year.

This is what I always try to say but no one is interested in taking this approach.

But you’re right...if a single shot by Ray Allen can so dramatically affect the “legacies” of two other guys, maybe we’re employing the wrong criteria.

[bison]

Duncan is the most overrated player of all time. Not top 10. Benefited from the system. This dude would be elden Campbell on any other team. Duncan is the only player I personally hate more than lebron. I hate his complain face.

[8Ball]

Poetic beauty right here and Jordan stans knew it was over for them. The gap was closing fast, then 2016 happened.

When they bring it up they don't realize how much enjoyment Bron fans got from that moment.


This was the most devastating shot ever for Jordan fans. History was supposed to go down the way they thought in their minds. But it didn't and their narrative was forever broken.


For bron fans, it was just 1 of many joyful moments of our lives.

For jordan fans, it was the most painful experience they ever had to go through.



I remember reading discussion forums 8 years ago after that shot and lebron haters were shell shocked. They were speechless. It was an awful dream.


8 years later they still have reoccurring nightmares..... "what if ray allen missed that shot?????" What if what if what if. What if they weren't retarded? Ahhh the possibilities of life.

[8Ball]

This is what I always try to say but no one is interested in taking this approach.

But you’re right...if a single shot by Ray Allen can so dramatically affect the “legacies” of two other guys, maybe we’re employing the wrong criteria.

Bingo.


Rings are overrated way to measure players.

[Jasper]

people still put akeem ahead of Duncan .. both were 6'10"

[Jasper]

Duncan is the most overrated player of all time. Not top 10. Benefited from the system. This dude would be elden Campbell on any other team. Duncan is the only player I personally hate more than lebron. I hate his complain face.

obviously you do not know what bball is.
I remember playing on the playground league , and a buddy of mine was our center. His game was 'what you would call' boring , but he was unbelievably
effective on both ends of the court. In the history of bball Duncan is considered the top PF.
But your argument would say Malone , because of his points and boards on Utah , that never won a ring.
The history of bball has shown exceptional and yet typical players excel at their positions.
Giannis is one of them , 50 point game to cap off a ring , 2x mvp, DPY, mvp of finals and a lower percentage jump shot.
(He wins 2 more MVPs and 2 more chips , he could be consider the best of all time) he is already a HOF'er.

[Axe]

This is what I always try to say but no one is interested in taking this approach.

But you’re right...if a single shot by Ray Allen can so dramatically affect the “legacies” of two other guys, maybe we’re employing the wrong criteria.
Maybe but i thought the sole purpose of forming the triumvirate in south beach a decade ago was to establish themselves a dynasty. What happened though?