Who gains the most from winning a title this year?

[Roundball_Rock]

Some candidates:

Harden: the knock on this MVP is postseason performance and that his team has never won a ring. Sound familiar? This is what people said about Dirk. One playoff run erased all that and flipped the perception of him. Harden has the same opportunity. If that happens, he is set up well. He quietly is tracking to having the 3rd or 4th best resume of any SG.

Accolades through Age 29 for HOF SG's

Harden: 1 MVP, 5 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP (2nd 3x)
Kobe: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-NBA, 6 top five MVP
Drexler: 0 MVP, 1 all-NBA 1st team, 4 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
West: 0 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 7 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP
Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
Miller: 0 MVP, 0 all-NBA 1st teams, 1 all-NBA, 0 top five MVP
Jordan: 3 MVP’s, 7 all-NBA 1st teams, 8 all-NBA, 7 top five MVP
Iverson: 1 MVP, 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 3 top five MVP

This doesn't even count this season where he will be all-NBA 1st team again and record another top 5 MVP finish.

Giannis: he will join KAJ and LeBron as the only players with multiple MVP's by age 25. The knock on him is he has not won a chip, does not have any signature playoff performances, etc. These are based on small sample sizes so he has ample opportunity to turn it around. This year would be good timing since the Bucks would likely have to get past strong Toronto, Boston teams to make the finals and then likely face a West team with two superstars (LAL, LAC, or HOU presumably). Not only would he get a ring, he would get the bounce of "degree of difficulty" if the Bucks beat a 2 superstar team with 1.

Westbrook: another MVP whose postseason performance is questioned. Moreover, he is also perceived by some to be a selfish player who does not play winning ball. The best way to cure that is to actually win (Wilt, MJ were spoken of the same way too before winning).

Every Raptor: the team and Nick Nurse got no credit for winning last year, with all of it devolving on one player. 46-18 should be enough to silence that talk but clearly has not done so. A ring would (especially if ironically it is against the Clippers). Siakam, Lowry get looked at differently if this happens.

LeBron: a 4th ring would help the media narrative and him in the public opinion battle but substantively there isn't much of a difference between 3 and 4. However, in this case he would have the "won with 3 teams" argument. It is one thing to win in one context and another to do it in two (KAJ, Shaq, Wilt are examples of this). No all-time great has done it in three contexts (and LeBron could point to a finals trip in a fourth).

Kawhi: no one's perception changed more over the past year than his; another ring would keep the helium going.

Sam Hinkie: if the Sixers win, "The Process" is vindicated.

[Mask the Embiid]

If Giannis or LeBron(they embody everything "they" hate about what it means to be a black man #biggerfasterstronger) wins we all know "the haters" wont count it.So they have the least to gain


Jokic Kawhi or Luka wins "they" will count it as legit.



If you know you know

[LoneyROY7]

Does the most for Harden.

[999Guy]

Kawhi and Giannis begin to get into uncharted territory of overrated in league history.

Surpassing mister Jason Kidd efficiency but known as a great scorer Isiah Thomas in the process.


Giannis, incredibly, is universally ranked over Chris Paul career-wise at this very moment somehow.

A title would put this guy maybe legitimate 40-50 spots ahead of where he should be if you are actually trying to quantify an all-time list with consistency.

Kawhi is horrendously overrated as it is.

But I think ratings go up and down with time. Look at Kobe who was a top 10 “lock” until 2016ish, and now he’s slipping into the mid to late teens. Look at Reggie. Look at Wade. Wade was where Kawhi is now BEFORE amazing seasons like 07-12, and yet his all-time perception didn’t move.

Wade was seen universally as the best guard in the world by 2010. Even on this very board. You’d think he and Drexler are peers now.

This stuff changes with recency bias.

But Giannis would be...just retarded levels of overrated. Kawhi is probably already there.


Harden still wouldn’t get too much of a bump NOW. But in like 10-15 years his career would be put into proper perspective. 18-20 Harden was crazy.

[999Guy]

Look at this stupid shit. I’m such a fan of logic I get emotional when I see this :oldlol:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14702698/stephen-curry-place-all-greats


Feb 3, 2016

Stephen Curry? Top 25 already? Why, he has played in only two All-Star Games.

It was blasphemous enough when Curry finished fourth in our all-time point guard rankings. Now he's creeping into the territory reserved for legends.

:roll:

What happened? He won 2 titles and has racked up tons of great seasons and has barely moved if at all.

Curry’s probably never getting past the late teens. His career really isn’t better than D-Rob’s and it probably will never be. Same thing for Durant. Wait until these flame out years of his prime in Brooklyn.


Just like with Wade, once KD plays at a not “MVP level” for an extended period, his image and memory in the mind of fans will disintegrate. I really believe that joke season Kobe has in 2016 hurt him. If he retired right after the Achilles injury he’d have gone down as a b-ball martyr.

[Roundball_Rock]

Does the most for Harden.

Agree. I forgot to put that in the OP.


But I think ratings go up and down with time. Look at Kobe who was a top 10 “lock” until 2016ish, and now he’s slipping into the mid to late teens. Look at Reggie. Look at Wade. Wade was where Kawhi is now BEFORE amazing seasons like 07-12, and yet his all-time perception didn’t move.

Yeah, you need to wait 20+ years after a player is retired to see what the historical verdict will be. You need the value of perspective and the removal of emotion from the process. Reggie is a special case. He was a 1x all-star through 7 seasons before Spike Lee (suddenly he became a perennial all-star--doing the same exact things :oldlol: and has a "30 for 30" about "winning" despite never winning anything in 19 years).


Just like with Wade, once KD plays at a not “MVP level” for an extended period, his image and memory in the mind of fans will disintegrate.

That is possible but I think the difference between Wade and the people ranked ahead of him is Wade didn't last as a superstar as long as they did. KD already has a decade in the books as a superstar.

I think, unless he wins a title with the Clippers, Kawhi is a candidate for a Wade-type slide. He has been a superstar for an even shorter time frame than Wade so he is more susceptible to sliding once the helium from 19' fades--unless he does other things to add to it. Compare Wade to Kawhi through age 28:

Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP (through 2010)
Kawhi: 0 FMVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 3 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP

Even if you give Kawhi a 4th all-NBA (second team) for 20' it doesn't change much. Yet Kawhi somehow is being ranked near Wade right now.

[Gougou]

Giannis, huge gain in the early of his young career, a finals MVP and ring would already put him ahead of many ringless HOFs.

[imdaman99]

Harden and Westbrook.

Lebron has had his already, Kawhi has his, Giannis will have lots of more chances. If Harden and Westbrook can ball up in the playoffs, they have the potential of beating anyone. If they get a ring, they can enter top 30 stratosphere. Which is pretty damn special.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi as he becomes a top 10 player all time.

[MrFonzworth]

If Giannis or LeBron(they embody everything "they" hate about what it means to be a black man #biggerfasterstronger) wins we all know "the haters" wont count it.So they have the least to gain


Jokic Kawhi or Luka wins "they" will count it as legit.



If you know you know

Reported for antisemitism.

[fourkicks44]

Sam Hinkie: if the Sixers win, "The Process" is vindicated.
Correction.

Hinkie wins no matter and he ALWAYS will stay winning.

Brett Brown will gain the most cause anything less than a championship or the change of ownership and he is gone.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It does the most for Kawhi by far. Three Finals MVPS and leading every team in VORP, and if he has similar PPG/efficiency as 2019 playoffs. That should make him the best wing player ever not named Jordan/LeBron.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Agree. I forgot to put that in the OP.



Yeah, you need to wait 20+ years after a player is retired to see what the historical verdict will be. You need the value of perspective and the removal of emotion from the process. Reggie is a special case. He was a 1x all-star through 7 seasons before Spike Lee (suddenly he became a perennial all-star--doing the same exact things :oldlol: and has a "30 for 30" about "winning" despite never winning anything in 19 years).



That is possible but I think the difference between Wade and the people ranked ahead of him is Wade didn't last as a superstar as long as they did. KD already has a decade in the books as a superstar.

I think, unless he wins a title with the Clippers, Kawhi is a candidate for a Wade-type slide. He has been a superstar for an even shorter time frame than Wade so he is more susceptible to sliding once the helium from 19' fades--unless he does other things to add to it. Compare Wade to Kawhi through age 28:

Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP (through 2010)
Kawhi: 0 FMVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 3 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP

Even if you give Kawhi a 4th all-NBA (second team) for 20' it doesn't change much. Yet Kawhi somehow is being ranked near Wade right now.

Luka/Harden/Kawhi/LeBron/Giannis is the clear cut ALL 1ST team this year I would say.

Kawhi has 4 all nba MVP level years and two all-star years 2014 and 2015 with 2015 easily being all nba worthy. You are underrating the 2014/2015 version of Kawhi Leonard, he is basically a prime Scottie Pippen tier player. Not quite the playmaker as Scottie but makes up for it with superior scoring/efficiency and shooting.

[DoctorP]

1. NBA stockholders
2. Fans starving for anything
3. Sneaker company stockholders
4. Astericks

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Another thing about raptors without Kawhi this season.

- Siakam has improved. He's not the same player as last year.

- Fred Vanvleet and Norman Powell are coming into their prime. Not the same players they been all their careers

- Gasol is playing a lot more minutes

- OG is an elite defender

Totally different team. Still, they dropped to 14th ranked offense this season.

[Phoenix]

Agree. I forgot to put that in the OP.



Yeah, you need to wait 20+ years after a player is retired to see what the historical verdict will be. You need the value of perspective and the removal of emotion from the process. Reggie is a special case. He was a 1x all-star through 7 seasons before Spike Lee (suddenly he became a perennial all-star--doing the same exact things :oldlol: and has a "30 for 30" about "winning" despite never winning anything in 19 years).



That is possible but I think the difference between Wade and the people ranked ahead of him is Wade didn't last as a superstar as long as they did. KD already has a decade in the books as a superstar.

I think, unless he wins a title with the Clippers, Kawhi is a candidate for a Wade-type slide. He has been a superstar for an even shorter time frame than Wade so he is more susceptible to sliding once the helium from 19' fades--unless he does other things to add to it. Compare Wade to Kawhi through age 28:

Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP (through 2010)
Kawhi: 0 FMVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 3 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP

Even if you give Kawhi a 4th all-NBA (second team) for 20' it doesn't change much. Yet Kawhi somehow is being ranked near Wade right now.

You said Kawhi has zero FMVP by 28, did you mean that to be 'MVP'? He has 2 FMVP before his 28th birthday ( June 29th 2019).

[Roundball_Rock]

Hinkie wins no matter and he ALWAYS will stay winning.

https://vangogh.teespring.com/v3/image/on6ngq0zggYA8byEImAaHSzUb9c/480/560.jpg


Luka/Harden/Kawhi/LeBron/Giannis is the clear cut ALL 1ST team this year I would say.

You have three forwards listed. At forward it is Giannis, LeBron, Davis, Kawhi in that order. The other three will be top 5 in MVP along with Harden, Luka. Kawhi will trail them in MVP and all-NBA.


Kawhi has 4 all nba MVP level years and two all-star years 2014 and 2015 with 2015 easily being all nba worthy

2014: 13/6/2
2015: 17/7/3

2014 is nothing close to all-star. 2015 is all-star caliber but not "easily all-NBA."

Kawhi was 91st and 35th in scoring these years. "Superior scoring"? He was right behind Taj Gibson, Tony Wroten, Trey Burke in 14'. In 15' it was Millsap, Evans, Jefferson.


You said Kawhi has zero FMVP by 28, did you mean that to be 'MVP'? He has 2 FMVP before his 28th birthday ( June 29th 2019).

Yes--thanks for catching that!

[Bronbron23]

Some candidates:

Harden: the knock on this MVP is postseason performance and that his team has never won a ring. Sound familiar? This is what people said about Dirk. One playoff run erased all that and flipped the perception of him. Harden has the same opportunity. If that happens, he is set up well. He quietly is tracking to having the 3rd or 4th best resume of any SG.

Accolades through Age 29 for HOF SG's

Harden: 1 MVP, 5 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP (2nd 3x)
Kobe: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-NBA, 6 top five MVP
Drexler: 0 MVP, 1 all-NBA 1st team, 4 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
West: 0 MVP, 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 7 all-NBA, 5 top five MVP
Wade: 0 MVP, 2 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 2 top five MVP
Miller: 0 MVP, 0 all-NBA 1st teams, 1 all-NBA, 0 top five MVP
Jordan: 3 MVP’s, 7 all-NBA 1st teams, 8 all-NBA, 7 top five MVP
Iverson: 1 MVP, 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 6 all-NBA, 3 top five MVP

This doesn't even count this season where he will be all-NBA 1st team again and record another top 5 MVP finish.

Giannis: he will join KAJ and LeBron as the only players with multiple MVP's by age 25. The knock on him is he has not won a chip, does not have any signature playoff performances, etc. These are based on small sample sizes so he has ample opportunity to turn it around. This year would be good timing since the Bucks would likely have to get past strong Toronto, Boston teams to make the finals and then likely face a West team with two superstars (LAL, LAC, or HOU presumably). Not only would he get a ring, he would get the bounce of "degree of difficulty" if the Bucks beat a 2 superstar team with 1.

Westbrook: another MVP whose postseason performance is questioned. Moreover, he is also perceived by some to be a selfish player who does not play winning ball. The best way to cure that is to actually win (Wilt, MJ were spoken of the same way too before winning).

Every Raptor: the team and Nick Nurse got no credit for winning last year, with all of it devolving on one player. 46-18 should be enough to silence that talk but clearly has not done so. A ring would (especially if ironically it is against the Clippers). Siakam, Lowry get looked at differently if this happens.

LeBron: a 4th ring would help the media narrative and him in the public opinion battle but substantively there isn't much of a difference between 3 and 4. However, in this case he would have the "won with 3 teams" argument. It is one thing to win in one context and another to do it in two (KAJ, Shaq, Wilt are examples of this). No all-time great has done it in three contexts (and LeBron could point to a finals trip in a fourth).

Kawhi: no one's perception changed more over the past year than his; another ring would keep the helium going.

Sam Hinkie: if the Sixers win, "The Process" is vindicated.

Its hard to say. It would bring bron equal or past mj in some eyes. It would bring kawhi close to bron especially if he beats him in the wcf. It could also legitimize a player like harden or westbrook. Overall because of its historical importance id say bron. If he wins another one with a fmvp hed be tied with mj in my eyes.

[light]

If Giannis or LeBron(they embody everything "they" hate about what it means to be a black man #biggerfasterstronger) wins we all know "the haters" wont count it.So they have the least to gain


Jokic Kawhi or Luka wins "they" will count it as legit.



If you know you know

Same goes for Harden. No one wants him to win.

[RRR3]

Anyone who doesn't already rank top LeBron in the top 5 isn't going to suddenly put him there if he wins another ring.

[Bronbron23]

Anyone who doesn't already rank top LeBron in the top 5 isn't going to suddenly put him there if he wins another ring.

why not? Another ring and fmvp would be huge. It could easily take him from top 10 to top 5 if thats where you have him. I personally have him behind mj, magic and kareem. I have bron right there with kobe, duncan Russell and bird. If he gets 4 theres no question in my mind and hes passed those guys. Hed then be on the fence with mj, magic and kareem. If he gets 5 he passes everyone imo.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://vangogh.teespring.com/v3/image/on6ngq0zggYA8byEImAaHSzUb9c/480/560.jpg



You have three forwards listed. At forward it is Giannis, LeBron, Davis, Kawhi in that order. The other three will be top 5 in MVP along with Harden, Luka. Kawhi will trail them in MVP and all-NBA.



2014: 13/6/2
2015: 17/7/3

2014 is nothing close to all-star. 2015 is all-star caliber but not "easily all-NBA."

Kawhi was 91st and 35th in scoring these years. "Superior scoring"? He was right behind Taj Gibson, Tony Wroten, Trey Burke in 14'. In 15' it was Millsap, Evans, Jefferson.



Yes--thanks for catching that!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id1_select=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id1=leonaka01&y1=2014&player_id2_hint=Scottie+Pippen&player_id2_select=Scottie+Pippen&player_id2=pippesc01&y2=1996

1996 Pippen vs 2014 kawhi playoff runs

Kawhi: 14.3 PPG, 51% FG
Scottie Pippen: 16.9 PPG, 39% FG

That's a prime Pippen year there. Kawhi is +11% FG, TS is +13, nearly identical WS/48, Kawhi's free throw rate is also +2%

[NBAGOAT]

chris paul

[Roundball_Rock]

That was Pippen with 3 separate injuries. :lol He was getting MVP talk that season while healthy--as a second option--and averaging 22 PPG up to that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or_skJDMUIo

[Wally450]

I'd say Harden, but a title for Tatum at 21 with a lot of great basketball in front of him might help jumpstart a HOF career.

[Turbo Slayer]

Harden. Winning a title would help clean up Harden's image as a supposed "choker".

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That was Pippen with 3 separate injuries. :lol He was getting MVP talk that season while healthy--as a second option--and averaging 22 PPG up to that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or_skJDMUIo

Kawhi wasn't just getting MVP talk, he actually won finals MVP. I'm talking playoffs here, not reg season.

Pippen only played 6 more total minutes:

Kawhi points per 100 possessions: 23.1

Pippen points per 100 possessions: 22.7

[Roundball_Rock]

Kawhi has a weak case--small samples, cherry picking non-stop.

In 2014 two Spurs got MVP votes--neither was named Kawhi. :lol