Player positions according to Basketball - Reference ...

[L.Kizzle]

Have we been getting lied to for the majority of our life? Depending on how you feel about their findings, some players have been playing “out of position” according to BBall Reference. By “Out of Position“ I mean Jerry West usually get’s ranked on All-Time Shooting Guard list not Point Guard list.

Here are a few a noticed.


Tim Duncan
Power Forward (9)
Center (10)

Larry Bird
Power Forward (5)
Small Forward (8)

Magic Johnson
Shooting Guard (4)
Point Guard (8)
Power Forward (1)

Jerry West has always been considered a SHOOTING GUARD
Point Guard (12)
Shooting Guard (2)

Charles Barkley
Power Forward (13)
Small Forward (3)

Dennis Rodman
Small Forward (5)
Power Forward (9)

Dennis Johnson
Shooting Guard (6)
Point Guard (8)

Elvin Hayes
Center (4)
Power Forward (12)

Willis Reed
Power Forward (3)
Center (7)

Penny Hardaway
Point Guard (4)
Shooting Guard (7)
Small Forward (3)

[warriorfan]

Have we been getting lied to for the majority of our life? Depending on how you feel about their findings, some players have been playing “out of position” according to BBall Reference. By “Out of Position“ I mean Jerry West usually get’s ranked on All-Time Shooting Guard list not Point Guard list.

Here are a few a noticed.


Tim Duncan
Power Forward (9)
Center (10)

Larry Bird
Power Forward (5)
Small Forward (8)

Magic Johnson
Shooting Guard (4)
Point Guard (8)
Power Forward (1)

Jerry West has always been considered a SHOOTING GUARD
Point Guard (12)
Shooting Guard (2)

Charles Barkley
Power Forward (13)
Small Forward (3)

Dennis Rodman
Small Forward (5)
Power Forward (9)

Dennis Johnson
Shooting Guard (6)
Point Guard (8)

Elvin Hayes
Center (4)
Power Forward (12)

Willis Reed
Power Forward (3)
Center (7)

Penny Hardaway
Point Guard (4)
Shooting Guard (7)
Small Forward (3)

As players age it’s not very uncommon for them to put on some weight and lose some speed so they will drop down a position.

[L.Kizzle]

As players age it’s not very uncommon for them to put on some weight and lose some speed so they will drop down a position.

I agree. That's not what this thread insinuates tho? I think the majority of the public just assumes Magic played his entire career as a PG? His first four season he's a shooting guard.

[warriorfan]

I agree. That's not what this thread insinuates tho? I think the majority of the public just assumes Magic played his entire career as a PG? His first four season he's a shooting guard.

Quite a few on your list fit that bill. I didn’t know about Magic being listed as a SG though. Players like Magic are so dynamic they really blur the line between positions. Of course there is his famous Finals game where he played Center in place of Kareem. However I think I remember reading something that said that Magic really didn’t play Center the entire game? I can’t recall.

[L.Kizzle]

Quite a few on your list fit that bill. I didn’t know about Magic being listed as a SG though. Players like Magic are so dynamic they really blur the line between positions. Of course there is his famous Finals game where he played Center in place of Kareem. However I think I remember reading something that said that Magic really didn’t play Center the entire game? I can’t recall.
I think he just did the "jump ball", as they just inserted Cooper into the lineup. But regardless of that, Norm Nixon was actually the PG in those early Showtime years.

[L.Kizzle]

The first 5 years of Larry Bird's career, he's the starting POWER FORWARD for the Celtics. Most people would think that was Kevin McHale. Kevin wasn't even a starter, that would be Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

[Whoah10115]

Those aren't all correct. They were late to add C to Duncan, but then they added it two seasons early.

They added Barkley late, but all you gotta do is look at the starters, their minutes and maybe backups.

Jerry West only one that's potentially an issue.

[1987_Lakers]

Some of those are wrong. Bird started at PF alot in his last few years with the Celtics.

[Manny98]

LeBron played shooting guard his rookie season

he's the only player ever to have played significant minutes in all 5 positions

[Psileas]

How about Giannis as a SG in '15, while shooting 7/44 3's? I can get other positions, but was he ever really playing as a SG?

[Number34]

How about Giannis as a SG in '15, while shooting 7/44 3's? I can get other positions, but was he ever really playing as a SG?

I had a nice reply to this but bullshit happened.
But I feel like guys like Giannis, Penny, or Magic more often than not can get in wherever they fit in due to their versatility. And the end of they day they are usually gonna run point on the floor: calling plays, getting guys in position, and getting the bulk of the assists. Hell I remember Bron starting at SG for a few games in his return to Cleveland. I guess you could look at him playing PF in Miami yet running the point, because it def wasn’t all on Mario.
Giannis might be a bit different though because he played with legit ball handling guards like Brogdon and Bledsoe.
This convo reminds me of guys like the aforementioned Duncan, KG, or AD; who usually “play” C on defense when they are on the block protecting the rim, but wanna play PF outside-in on offense and guard the opposing PF. All three have played meaningful minutes at both positions throughout their careers.

[light]

Have we been getting lied to for the majority of our life? Depending on how you feel about their findings, some players have been playing “out of position” according to BBall Reference. By “Out of Position“ I mean Jerry West usually get’s ranked on All-Time Shooting Guard list not Point Guard list.

Here are a few a noticed.


Tim Duncan
Power Forward (9)
Center (10)

Larry Bird
Power Forward (5)
Small Forward (8)

Magic Johnson
Shooting Guard (4)
Point Guard (8)
Power Forward (1)

Jerry West has always been considered a SHOOTING GUARD
Point Guard (12)
Shooting Guard (2)

Charles Barkley
Power Forward (13)
Small Forward (3)

Dennis Rodman
Small Forward (5)
Power Forward (9)

Dennis Johnson
Shooting Guard (6)
Point Guard (8)

Elvin Hayes
Center (4)
Power Forward (12)

Willis Reed
Power Forward (3)
Center (7)

Penny Hardaway
Point Guard (4)
Shooting Guard (7)
Small Forward (3)

Basketball reference determines position estimates using a formula. It's not an exact science. It's not definitive. It's just a guess.

But what the thing about Jerry West suggests to me is that he was the shortest person on his team on the floor a lot - not that he was officially playing PG.

[Roundball_Rock]

Some of those are wrong. Bird started at PF alot in his last few years with the Celtics.

Same with Pippen at PG in Portland towards the end of his career. Yet BBallreference's data says he never played PG (even for 1% of games in play-by-play data).

[L.Kizzle]

Basketball reference determines position estimates using a formula. It's not an exact science. It's not definitive. It's just a guess.

But what the thing about Jerry West suggests to me is that he was the shortest person on his team on the floor a lot - not that he was officially playing PG.

Gail Goodrich is shorter than West and listed as the Lakers SG. The only seasons Goodrich is listed as a PG was when he went to the Suns as D Van Arsdale was their SG (that's also one of the two seasons West is listed as a SG when Goodrich left ... hmm.) When Goodrich returned to the Lakers he's listed as a SG again.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The mistake would be to put a lot of importance on listed positions. A guy like Penny doesn't play the whole season at just one spot, he gets moved around for matchups or to cover for injuries.

[Phoenix]

I recall Barkley playing small forward right before going to Phoenix. Armon Gilliam was starting PF alongside him. My first time extensively watching him was Philly vs Chicago in the 90 playoffs and he was directly matched up with Pip IIRC.

[light]

Gail Goodrich is shorter than West and listed as the Lakers SG. The only seasons Goodrich is listed as a PG was when he went to the Suns as D Van Arsdale was their SG (that's also one of the two seasons West is listed as a SG when Goodrich left ... hmm.) When Goodrich returned to the Lakers he's listed as a SG again.

That would be due to West's assist rate versus Goodrich.

West was an inch taller but his assist rate was considerably higher, and being that they're so close in height range (on the short end) the formula assigned the higher assist rate the 1 position.

Their formula takes into account 5-man units (where data is available), height and weight, assist rate and rebound rate, etc. and assigns everyone a position 1 through 5.

It's a challenge with West and Goodrich because they were both high scoring shooting guards, but they started together and have to be assigned different positions.

And it's worth remembering that the term "point guard" wasn't used at the time.

[L.Kizzle]

That would be due to West's assist rate versus Goodrich.

West was an inch taller but his assist rate was considerably higher, and being that they're so close in height range (on the short end) the formula assigned the higher assist rate the 1 position.

Their formula takes into account 5-man units (where data is available), height and weight, assist rate and rebound rate, etc. and assigns everyone a position 1 through 5.

It's a challenge with West and Goodrich because they were both high scoring shooting guards, but they started together and have to be assigned different positions.

And it's worth remembering that the term "point guard" wasn't used at the time.

How do you explain the Norm Nixon/Magic Johnson LA backcourt? Norm is listed as the PG his entire career. Magic is the SG until Norm moves to the Clippers. Norm avg more assist than Magic first two season but Magic overtakes him his last seasons in LA.