Kevin McHale: Most overrated NBA player ever?

[L.Kizzle]

Basketball Hall of Famer & voted one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History.

With that said, is Kevin McHale overrated?

Let’s get his accolades out of the way first.

1986 All-NBA 1st Team
Six Time All-Defensive Team (two 1st; four 2nd)
7 Time NBA All-Star
3 Time NBA Champion
2 time Sixth Man of the Year

Nothing overrated about that what so ever.


Here is what makes him overrated …
PS. He is not a bad player, let’s get that straight.

After the upper echelon of PF’s (Duncan, KG, Dirk, Malone and Chuck) McHale is usually listed right under them.

McHale is a career bench player. The majority of his career was spent coming off the bench. He played 917 games and started only 400 of them. Of his 13 seasons he was only a full time starter for 4 of them.

You always here about the storied Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale and Bird but it kind of loses its muster if Cedric Maxwell was really the one in that starting frontline for five years.

Kevin McHale vs. Robert Parish?

Is it fare to put a career bench player over an Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit or Chris Webber? Because I’ve seen it done many times.

Is there a valid reason why McHale wasn’t a starter more times than not?

Am I making too much out of nothing with him coming off the bench most of his career?
If so, than insert any other great player and imagine them coming off the bench most of their career.


Thoughts. Kevin McHale ... overrated, underrated or rated just right?

[tpols]

there's a great chance that if he didn't play with larry bird he'd be about as revered as tom chambers.

[Kblaze8855]

Coming off the bench as an obvious HOF talent to make the team better makes you better not worse. We need more like him. Of what relevance is who is listed in the starting lineup when there were times the whole game plan was for him to destroy someone one on one over and over and over and he came through? Being in this lineup or that is not a basketball skill.

[Reggie43]

Who cares who starts when the most important thing is who finishes the game. Bench players getting 30+ mins per game are not placed there because of lack of ability but as a strategy of the coach.

[L.Kizzle]

Coming off the bench as an obvious HOF talent to make the team better makes you better not worse. We need more like him. Of what relevance is who is listed in the starting lineup when there were times the whole game plan was for him to destroy someone one on one over and over and over and he came through? Being in this lineup or that is not a basketball skill.

Why didn't more Hall of Fame players come of the bench? Clyde should have came off the bench and let Drazen start, right? Could've worked right?
Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford also come off the bench and drop 20+ and can't be stopped a lot of times.

I see what you're saying tho but someone can easily come back with that.

[NBAGOAT]

Why didn't more Hall of Fame players come of the bench? Clyde should have came off the bench and let Drazen start, right? Could've worked right?
Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford also come off the bench and drop 20+ and can't be stopped a lot of times.

I see what you're saying tho but someone can easily come back with that.

change in thinking over time. it's pretty logical to think we should just make our 5 best players the starters too. there hasnt been a drastic change but I think someone like lou is starting 20 years ago.

[Axe]

I don't think he is.

[1987_Lakers]

McHale is a career bench player. The majority of his career was spent coming off the bench. He played 917 games and started only 400 of them. Of his 13 seasons he was only a full time starter for 4 of them.

You always here about the storied Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale and Bird but it kind of loses its muster if Cedric Maxwell was really the one in that starting frontline for five years.

Kevin McHale vs. Robert Parish?

Is it fare to put a career bench player over an Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit or Chris Webber? Because I’ve seen it done many times.

Is there a valid reason why McHale wasn’t a starter more times than not?

Am I making too much out of nothing with him coming off the bench most of his career?
If so, than insert any other great player and imagine them coming off the bench most of their career.

Like Red Auerbach once said, it doesn't matter who starts, but who finishes. He was the first coach to really implemented the 6th man role with John Havlicek. Havlicek spent most of the 60's on the bench, he still has the record for most points as a Celtic. Ginobili is going to make the HOF starting in only 349 games. As a starter, McHale peaked to be the most unarguable PF the league had seen and he was an All-Defensive player 6 times, outscored Larry Bird in a couple of Finals, and was a great postseason performer, don't know what more you could ask for.

McHale is one of those players who lacked longevity, but '86 & '87 McHale is easily a top 6 pf ever in my book. I can't talk for Pettit since I don't know much about him, but I can see why he is ranked ahead of Hayes, at first glance you might peep at Hayes' stats and be overly impressed, but Hayes was averaging close to 44 mpg in his first 7 years in the league, inflating his stats, he wasn't the scorer McHale was, not even close in terms of efficiency. Hayes was also a known cancer, not a leader, and not well liked by his teammates.

As for Webber, sadly him playing on weak teams most of his career made him somewhat of an afterthought, I believe he gets overlooked, but I still think McHale peaked as a better player.

[FultzNationRISE]

You have to really look for unconventional factors to make the case.

People usually go by two things: resume, and talent.

His on-paper resume is up to par. And when someone like Charles Barkley says youre “the best power forward I ever played against” it probably means your resume translates pretty well to impact on the court.

So he has the talent and the achievements.

Seems like really kind of a reach to use the Celtics’ rotational decisions against the weight of those two main factors.

[Round Mound]

The Greatest Post Player Ever Skill Wise.

I Suggest you watch the 1986 Finals and see what he did to Ralph Sampson.

Before Injuries McHale was considered the Best PF till about 1989 when Chuck and Karl took over

I Rank him like Pippen a Top 30-35 Player of All Time.

[L.Kizzle]

Like Red Auerbach once said, it doesn't matter who starts, but who finishes. He was the first coach to really implemented the 6th man role with John Havlicek. Havlicek spent most of the 60's on the bench, he still has the record for most points as a Celtic. Ginobili is going to make the HOF starting in only 349 games. As a starter, McHale peaked to be the most unarguable PF the league had seen and he was an All-Defensive player 6 times, outscored Larry Bird in a couple of Finals, and was a great postseason performer, don't know what more you could ask for.

McHale is one of those players who lacked longevity, but '86 & '87 McHale is easily a top 6 pf ever in my book. I can't talk for Pettit since I don't know much about him, but I can see why he is ranked ahead of Hayes, at first glance you might peep at Hayes' stats and be overly impressed, but Hayes was averaging close to 44 mpg in his first 7 years in the league, inflating his stats, he wasn't the scorer McHale was, not even close in terms of efficiency. Hayes was also a known cancer, not a leader, and not well liked by his teammates.

As for Webber, sadly him playing on weak teams most of his career made him somewhat of an afterthought, I believe he gets overlooked, but I still think McHale peaked as a better player.

A lot of players come off the bench early in their career. Hondo no different. Kobe, Nash etc. They eventually became full times starters is what I'm saying. Why did he never become a full time starter except for a few seasons in the mid 80s?

Nobody puts Manu as a top tier player at his position tho.

It's not fare to say Hayes was inflating his stats by playing 44 minutes a game his first 7 seasons when Kareem avg the same number of minutes his first 7 seasons as well.

And Barkley has no defense so of course someone like McHale will score on him at will.

Larry Bird has also said Dennis Johnson was the best player he's ever played with which can be just as true as the Barkley statement.

But that is like my point and if used correctly can win a debate, lol.

[L.Kizzle]

The Greatest Post Player Ever Skill Wise.

I Suggest you watch the 1986 Finals and see what he did to Ralph Sampson.

Before Injuries McHale was considered the Best PF till about 1989 when Chuck and Karl took over

I Rank him like Pippen a Top 30-35 Player of All Time.

I seen it. I never said he was a terrible player. I even said that right before I said why I think he was overrated.

My whole point is how can you be considered so great when you only started about 40% of the games you played?

Look at the other player in your top 30-35 rankings. No imagine them coming off the bench the majority of their career, would you look at them the same?

[1987_Lakers]

A lot of players come off the bench early in their career. Hondo no different. Kobe, Nash etc. They eventually became full times starters is what I'm saying. Why did he never become a full time starter except for a few seasons in the mid 80s?

Nobody puts Manu as a top tier player at his position tho.

It's not fare to say Hayes was inflating his stats by playing 44 minutes a game his first 7 seasons when Kareem avg the same number of minutes his first 7 seasons as well.

And Barkley has no defense so of course someone like McHale will score on him at will.

Larry Bird has also said Dennis Johnson was the best player he's ever played with which can be just as true as the Barkley statement.

But that is like my point and if used correctly can win a debate, lol.

The difference between Kareem and Hayes is that Kareem shot 55% compared to 44% from Hayes and Kareem was a superior passer and overall a more impactful defender. Just look at Hayes in '73 & '74, 21 ppg on 43% shooting while playing 43 mpg, sorry but that is atrocious. All of Hayes' big scoring seasons came on teams that had losing records and were ranked near the bottom in overall offense, when he finally got some talent around him his scoring dipped dramatically, but his inefficiency stayed the same.

The reason why McHale went back on the bench in the early 90's is because Bird at that point was breaking down physically, he couldn't guard SFs because of his lack of quickness so it would make sense to start Bird at his best position at the time at PF. And the Celtics franchise in general were big believers in having that spark off the bench.

[Lebron23]

He was Tim Duncan before Tim Duncan
He would be a franchise player in the 1990's

[L.Kizzle]

The difference between Kareem and Hayes is that Kareem shot 55% compared to 44% from Hayes and Kareem was a superior passer and overall a more impactful defender. Just look at Hayes in '73 & '74, 21 ppg on 43% shooting while playing 43 mpg, sorry but that is atrocious. All of Hayes' big scoring seasons came on teams that had losing records and were ranked near the bottom in overall offense, when he finally got some talent around him his scoring dipped dramatically, but his inefficiency stayed the same.

The reason why McHale went back on the bench in the early 90's is because Bird at that point was breaking down physically, he couldn't guard SFs because of his lack of quickness so it would make sense to start Bird at his best position at the time at PF. And the Celtics franchise in general were big believers in having that spark off the bench.

I wasn't comparing them (Kareem and Elvin) as players but just the huge minutes. McAdoo, Lanier, Dave Cowens, Haywood and other bigs played 40+ minutes in the early to mid 70s. It was normal. All had similar FG% besides McAdoo and Lanier.

[L.Kizzle]

He was Tim Duncan before Tim Duncan
He would be a franchise player in the 1990's

Franchise players don't come off the bench.

[Lebron23]

Franchise players don't come off the bench.

Larry Birds's Celtics were a very talented and stacked team. That's why Michael Jordan and his Bulls never won a playoffs series against him.

[Carbine]

If you think he was Tim Duncan before Tim Duncan you're only making that comparison because both are skilled post scorers that could also defend.

[Kblaze8855]

Why didn't more Hall of Fame players come of the bench? Clyde should have came off the bench and let Drazen start, right? Could've worked right?
Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford also come off the bench and drop 20+ and can't be stopped a lot of times.

I see what you're saying tho but someone can easily come back with that.


A jackass could come back with anything.

One year nobody on the Celtics started every game game and 4 of them were hall of famers. Larry Bird came off the bench 20ish games. He had a mild injury and returned as a sixth man and they had what I think was the second longest win streak in nba history with Bird going crazy off the bench playing behind...you guessed it...Kevin Mchale.

Exactly nobody thinks that means anything. You’re talking about shit that means absolutely nothing. Larry Bird rode coach as a top 5 player because the young guys weren’t allowed to fly first class. He came off the bench for a good run because the team was winning that way. He did what he was asked to make the team win and he had the coach who made him do it induct him into the hall of fame.....along with Bill Walton. Another zero ego winner who just did what the team required.


You don’t make the team worse for an empty gesture.....

Chemistry matters. A lot. Plenty of greats rather contribute to winning than rock the boat like an idiot.

[Drygon]

How is Danny Ainge overrated? Nobody says he was a star player or anything like that. He was a really good role player, which is something most people agrees on.

[iamgine]

Basketball Hall of Famer & voted one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History.

With that said, is Kevin McHale overrated?

Let’s get his accolades out of the way first.

1986 All-NBA 1st Team
Six Time All-Defensive Team (two 1st; four 2nd)
7 Time NBA All-Star
3 Time NBA Champion
2 time Sixth Man of the Year

Nothing overrated about that what so ever.


Here is what makes him overrated …
PS. He is not a bad player, let’s get that straight.

After the upper echelon of PF’s (Duncan, KG, Dirk, Malone and Chuck) McHale is usually listed right under them.

McHale is a career bench player. The majority of his career was spent coming off the bench. He played 917 games and started only 400 of them. Of his 13 seasons he was only a full time starter for 4 of them.

You always here about the storied Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale and Bird but it kind of loses its muster if Cedric Maxwell was really the one in that starting frontline for five years.

Kevin McHale vs. Robert Parish?

Is it fare to put a career bench player over an Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit or Chris Webber? Because I’ve seen it done many times.

Is there a valid reason why McHale wasn’t a starter more times than not?

Am I making too much out of nothing with him coming off the bench most of his career?
If so, than insert any other great player and imagine them coming off the bench most of their career.


Thoughts. Kevin McHale ... overrated, underrated or rated just right?

I mean if he had came off the bench his whole career then he might be overrated. But he had 4 full seasons of starting and we saw how good he was when starting.

As we saw from other players, a brief stint can go a long way. For example, Pippen as franchise player for 1.5 seasons alleviate the "he can't be compared to 1st options". Hakeem winning 2 titles alleviate all the times he lost in the first round. Etc.

[Axe]

How is Danny Ainge overrated? Nobody says he was a star player or anything like that. He was a really good role player, which is something most people agrees on.
I concur, and he's not even in the hof at all.

[Lebowski]

Basketball Hall of Famer & voted one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History.

With that said, is Kevin McHale overrated?

LetÂ’s get his accolades out of the way first.

1986 All-NBA 1st Team
Six Time All-Defensive Team (two 1st; four 2nd)
7 Time NBA All-Star
3 Time NBA Champion
2 time Sixth Man of the Year

Nothing overrated about that what so ever.


Here is what makes him overrated Â…
PS. He is not a bad player, letÂ’s get that straight.

After the upper echelon of PFÂ’s (Duncan, KG, Dirk, Malone and Chuck) McHale is usually listed right under them.

McHale is a career bench player. The majority of his career was spent coming off the bench. He played 917 games and started only 400 of them. Of his 13 seasons he was only a full time starter for 4 of them.

You always here about the storied Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale and Bird but it kind of loses its muster if Cedric Maxwell was really the one in that starting frontline for five years.

Kevin McHale vs. Robert Parish?

Is it fare to put a career bench player over an Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit or Chris Webber? Because IÂ’ve seen it done many times.

Is there a valid reason why McHale wasnÂ’t a starter more times than not?

Am I making too much out of nothing with him coming off the bench most of his career?
If so, than insert any other great player and imagine them coming off the bench most of their career.


Thoughts. Kevin McHale ... overrated, underrated or rated just right?

In this case, you are making too much out of nothing. And McHale should be put ahead of Chris Webber for example, so all is well there.

[Round Mound]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEZzhybujI

End Thread

[Turbo Slayer]

He's properly rated. He's all good.

[Axe]

Larry Birds's Celtics were a very talented and stacked team. That's why Michael Jordan and his Bulls never won a playoffs series against him.
Tbh, those bulls didn't break through until the 90s.

Also, that 32 game turnaround was impressive during that time.

[houston]

yeah he overrated amare stoudamire was better than him

[Roundball_Rock]

Probably rated by experts but underappreciated by fans. When 80's greats are discussed his name rarely comes up. The OP posted his resume. That speaks for itself but not only that he had arguably the GOAT arsenal of post moves (either him or Hakeem).

One problem guys like McHale run into is their stats suffer relative to other comparable players because they took smaller roles to play winning basketball. He could have pulled a Kyrie and demanded out and put up bigger numbers elsewhere but he wanted to win.

McHale ultimately is hurt by the "sidekick" thing. As if playing with prime Bird (who anyone in that era would have been a sidekick to) somehow makes him a worse player than being "the man" playing on almost any other team. Many fans overvalue this. Drexler is a prime example. Whenever he comes up people advocating for him note he made 2 finals and lost in Portland--no mention is made about the finals he actually won (putting up 22/10/7 in the finals--not exactly a non-contributor). In a ring obsessed era, his rings "don't count" to many fans.

[getting_old]

Meshed perfectly with BIRD and Parish.

Top 50 is too high, even for this C's fan of that era.

He wouldn't have lifted a 29 win team to playoff status on his own, Bird would have (and did.)

[bizil]

Nah McHale ISN'T overrated at all! He was one of those 2nd options who was REALLY an alpha dog caliber scorer. He just happened to be playing with Larry Legend. Who was the GOAT SF for a long ass time! And for those that knock McHale coming off the bench so much early in his career, Bird was ACTUALLY drafted to play PF for the Celtics BEFORE Kev got there. Once it was time, they moved Bird more exclusive to SF. And McHale started.

Some guys like Harden, Hondo, and McHale go from coming off the bench TO starting and being the best player at their position at some point. Before Barkley and Malone got rolling, McHale was the best PF on the planet. Plus it was McHale who OFTEN guarded the high scoring SF's of that era like Nique, King, English, Dantley, etc. While Bird guarded the PF's. Two way wise, ONLY guys like Duncan, Giannis, KG, and AD are superior to McHale at the PF spot.

26 PPG-10RPG-60% FG-2.2 blocks with great defense is UNHEARD OF at the PF spot!! McHale put that clip up in his 1st team All NBA season! So HOW IN THE HELL is he overrated??? On other teams, he would have been putting up numbers similar to dominant centers BUT from the PF position! Sort of a precursor to Duncan in my opinion. Timmy was a couple inches taller though and more athletic. IF ANYTHING, McHale could be slightly underrated. AT his best he was FLAT OUT superstar material. Not just an All Star. He just played with Larry Legend who was the best player on the planet at one point. 99.9% of players in NBA history are gonna be the 2nd best player AT BEST if they play with Bird!

[Roundball_Rock]

In 1987 he was 4th in MVP--right behind Bird. Bird got 271 votes, McHale 254. Legit superstar, not a Gasol or Irving or Klay type "sidekick."

[kentatm]

Is there a valid reason why McHale wasn’t a starter more times than not?

Am I making too much out of nothing with him coming off the bench most of his career?


McHale was a bench player in the same way modern guys like Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry were bench players. It wasn't for a lack of talent. It was for the betterment of the team. When the games got down to crunch time they were all on the floor. BTW, I am in no way saying Terry and Manu are at the same level as McHale.

Pairing Duncan or Dirk with McHale would have produced better results 10/10 times.

If I were to rank them it would be McHale....... Manu.................. Terry.

[L.Kizzle]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

[iamgine]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

It's obviously not as big a deal as you thought.

[kentatm]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

You aren't understanding why nobody cares that he came off the bench more often than not. It doesn't matter that he don't start when he still played 31 mpg for his career, was in the lineup when the game was on the line, or that the entire reason he stopped being a starter in the back half of his career was due to injury.

[Kblaze8855]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

Everything that results in success is “ok”. Nobody needs to explain why they put ego aside and did what was best for their team. Just stop. A player that talented being willing to do whatever makes him more desirable not less. Every coach in history would agree.

[Whoah10115]

Somebody's taking the Arsenio Hall approach to rating players.

[Smoke117]

Lol. :biggums:

[ELITEpower23]

He outscored "legendary" Bird in 2 of 3 Final so you tell me

[getting_old]

He outscored "legendary" Bird in 2 of 3 Final so you tell me


Bird's stat consistency for regular season and playoffs is admirable.

Bird created and raised the level of his teammates every time he went out there.

[Stephonit]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

Is this a black thing? I don't usually hear any of this starter vs. bench and alpha vs. beta stuff except from blacks.

[fourkicks44]

Petit was the man.

You can say he played against chumps, but the fact is he elevated harder against the chumps the more chumperer they became.

If you ever wanted a player to bring into today's game to see how they could hang, Bob should be on the top of the list.

Clearly known as the GOAT till Wilt was allowed in the league.

Imagine Petit against today's comp. Would prove so much

[86Celtics]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

As others have said, you place too much emphasis on his coming off the bench. His stats and level of play attest to his greatness. Top 5 PF of all time and among the very best post players ever.

[jayfan]

there's a great chance that if he didn't play with larry bird he'd be about as revered as tom chambers.


Same could be said about Pippen, for instance. But we'll never know.



What we do know about McHale, is that his skill in the post was elite.


.

[getting_old]

Bird was in reality a power forward, for his early years McHale came off the bench, then he started for most of his career, at least that's how i remember it...

Havlicek came off the bench for many years as well

Red's philosophy was "who finishes is way more important than who starts"

[bizil]

Some posters still don't get it. When Ginobli was coming of the bench, Pop brought him off the bench so often was because of durability reasons. Plus some coaches PREFER having a Hondo-Harden-Manu-Crawford-Lou Will of their bench to make their benches was stronger. In the case of Harden and Hondo, they were superstar players READY to break out. But YOUNG in their careers, they came off the bench for teams that were title contenders. But AT SOME POINT the cream rises to the top. And they were going to be starters and FROM THERE becomes the best player at their respective position. McHale is FOR DAMN SURE in that Harden and Hondo mode.

As I said before, Boston drafted Bird to play PF. Bird was a center in college. So when Boston drafted McHale, DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Bird. But ONCE AGAIN, the cream rises to the top! McHale was SO GOOD that they moved Bird to SF (a position he still played at times as it was) and McHale held down the PF spot. Guys like Manu-Crawford-Lou Will AREN'T superstar level players. They are All Star types of players at times who come off the bench for durability reasons, total lack of defense, they are small combo guards who are really DOMINANT at either position, or they are inefficient scoring the rock. For guys like that, it's for one of those reasons. With Kev, he got drafted by a team who ALREADY had a superstar player in his position. A team ready to win a ring on top of it. Yet he was SO GOOD that Bird MOVED to SF more exclusively so McHale could start!!

[getting_old]

Some posters still don't get it. When Ginobli was coming of the bench, Pop brought him off the bench so often was because of durability reasons. Plus some coaches PREFER having a Hondo-Harden-Manu-Crawford-Lou Will of their bench to make their benches was stronger. In the case of Harden and Hondo, they were superstar players READY to break out. But YOUNG in their careers, they came off the bench for teams that were title contenders. But AT SOME POINT the cream rises to the top. And they were going to be starters and FROM THERE becomes the best player at their respective position. McHale is FOR DAMN SURE in that Harden and Hondo mode.

As I said before, Boston drafted Bird to play PF. Bird was a center in college. So when Boston drafted McHale, DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Bird. But ONCE AGAIN, the cream rises to the top! McHale was SO GOOD that they moved Bird to SF (a position he still played at times as it was) and McHale held down the PF spot. Guys like Manu-Crawford-Lou Will AREN'T superstar level players. They are All Star types of players at times who come off the bench for durability reasons, total lack of defense, they are small combo guards who are really DOMINANT at either position, or they are inefficient scoring the rock. For guys like that, it's for one of those reasons. With Kev, he got drafted by a team who ALREADY had a superstar player in his position. A team ready to win a ring on top of it. Yet he was SO GOOD that Bird MOVED to SF more exclusively so McHale could start!!


Bird was every position on the court in college his final year

He singlehandedly took his team to the title game with a broken thumb

[L.Kizzle]

Everything that results in success is “ok”. Nobody needs to explain why they put ego aside and did what was best for their team. Just stop. A player that talented being willing to do whatever makes him more desirable not less. Every coach in history would agree.

That's kind of the answer I was looking for. I never once brought up his production or play on the court or anything of that nature. Never said he was a terrible player or nothing. Hell, I didn't no until a few days ago he came off the bench THAT much. I know he came off the bench but not to that extent.

[L.Kizzle]

Some posters still don't get it. When Ginobli was coming of the bench, Pop brought him off the bench so often was because of durability reasons. Plus some coaches PREFER having a Hondo-Harden-Manu-Crawford-Lou Will of their bench to make their benches was stronger. In the case of Harden and Hondo, they were superstar players READY to break out. But YOUNG in their careers, they came off the bench for teams that were title contenders. But AT SOME POINT the cream rises to the top. And they were going to be starters and FROM THERE becomes the best player at their respective position. McHale is FOR DAMN SURE in that Harden and Hondo mode.

As I said before, Boston drafted Bird to play PF. Bird was a center in college. So when Boston drafted McHale, DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Bird. But ONCE AGAIN, the cream rises to the top! McHale was SO GOOD that they moved Bird to SF (a position he still played at times as it was) and McHale held down the PF spot. Guys like Manu-Crawford-Lou Will AREN'T superstar level players. They are All Star types of players at times who come off the bench for durability reasons, total lack of defense, they are small combo guards who are really DOMINANT at either position, or they are inefficient scoring the rock. For guys like that, it's for one of those reasons. With Kev, he got drafted by a team who ALREADY had a superstar player in his position. A team ready to win a ring on top of it. Yet he was SO GOOD that Bird MOVED to SF more exclusively so McHale could start!!

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. It wasn't until a few days ago I found out McHale came off the bench so much. I knew he came off the bench for a while, but would have never guessed it was for well over half of his career.

So I asked the question, "Wait a minute, this guy is coming of the bench basically every year save a few years in the mid 80s. How is that so?"

I never mentioned his play on the court, stats, production. I merely just stated he came of the bench a lot. How can that be if he is "so great?"

[getting_old]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. It wasn't until a few days ago I found out McHale came off the bench so much. I knew he came off the bench for a while, but would have never guessed it was for well over half of his career.

So I asked the question, "Wait a minute, this guy is coming of the bench basically every year save a few years in the mid 80s. How is that so?"

I never mentioned his play on the court, stats, production. I merely just stated he came of the bench a lot. How can that be if he is "so great?"


He started the last part of 85, all 86 87 88 89, then got hurt

back then top teams started a useless scrub like Rambis, i think Iavaroni started for the 83 Sixers, a waste of a spot for the start of the game

[Shooter]

In what iota of a universe is Kevin McHale overrated? No one even talks about him to begin with, is this like tactic marketing to bring more hype to Kevin McHale I am so confused.

[getting_old]

In what iota of a universe is Kevin McHale overrated? No one even talks about him to begin with, is this like tactic marketing to bring more hype to Kevin McHale I am so confused.


one of the greatest pro athlete appearances on a TV sitcom, brought him back for a second episode of Cheers

and sadly his physique was the optimal one for my frame and height...

[97 bulls]

I'd like to know why nobody is holding the fact that McHale never led a team to a Championship against him. He took over as the leader of the Celtics in 89 and they were mediocre at best

[RoseCity07]

I don't know a lot about his game but from what I understand he had the best footwork of all-time for a big man. I'm not sure of it but I think Kobe studied his footwork.

[1987_Lakers]

I'd like to know why nobody is holding the fact that McHale never led a team to a Championship against him. He took over as the leader of the Celtics in 89 and they were mediocre at best

Because nobody ranks McHale in the top 30 ever category, and he was only the best player on his team for one year, too small of a sample size.

Only reason why Pippen gets so much scrutiny is because he played with MJ, and you have tons of trolls either downplaying or overplaying Pippen's accomplishments to make MJ look a certain way. Bird doesn't crazy obsessed fans or haters to constantly hype up or downplay his teammates success.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because nobody ranks McHale in the top 30 ever category, and he was only the best player on his team for one year, too small of a sample size.

Only reason why Pippen gets so much scrutiny is because he played with MJ, and you have tons of trolls either downplaying or overplaying Pippen's accomplishments to make MJ look a certain way. Bird doesn't crazy obsessed fans or haters to constantly hype up or downplay his teammates success.

A lot of good points. I would note Stockton, Robinson are examples of people who are in the top 30 (ranked near Pippen in fact) and you never hear this come up when Stockton is discussed and barely when Robinson is. (Of course, then there are all those guys who never won a ring as the best player by virtue of never winning a ring like Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Miller, etc.--but here we are discussing guys who were 2nd options at points.) Stockton mysteriously escapes all scrutiny and is hailed as this perfect sidekick. In fact, if you criticize him he will get defended (mostly by MJ stans). If winning a ring as the best player is the be all end all, what about Stockton and Robinson?

Pippen and McHale had similar sample sizes as #1's--dissimilar results, though. It isn't held against McHale at all but Pippen not winning a ring with Pete Myers in place of MJ is (implicit in that critique is that the team sans MJ "should have" won the chip--it was that stacked that even a scrub starting should have not been a bar to a chip), even though it was only one bite at that apple.

[getting_old]

I'd like to know why nobody is holding the fact that McHale never led a team to a Championship against him. He took over as the leader of the Celtics in 89 and they were mediocre at best


The 86 C's didn't use their bench, they paid for this by falling apart quick.

McHale broke his foot late in 1987 and played on it through the Finals, and it didn't heal properly for the rest of his life, Bird missed almost all the 89 season with back problems that put him quickly on the downslope\

Celtics and Lakers fell apart right before our eyes, let the Pistons win, then finally Jordan's crew after those 3 fell apart.

(Magic and Scott were hurt for the 1st Pistons win, so David Rivers and .... I can't even bother to look it up... were the guards)

[Roundball_Rock]

I think what 97 was getting at (based on his past posts) is the double standard. It doesn't even come up with McHale or Stockton, for example, yet is the big indictment against Pippen.


McHale broke his foot late in 1987 and played on it through the Finals, and it didn't heal properly for the rest of his life

That was baked into Boston's 88' performance, which was a step back from 87' which in turn was a regression from their 86' peak. What people bring up is the 88' Celtics won 57 games and made the ECF; without Bird it was 42 wins and a first round loss (with Reggie Lewis replacing Bird and putting up 19/5/3--a legit replacement, not Pete Myers).

McHale had some extenuating circumstances but so did Pippen. For Pippen none of this matters: the charge is the Bulls should have won with Myers in place of MJ, no ifs ands or buts! That they did not "shows" they were bums who couldn't win without MJ--if they didn't do it in one year it means they never ever could have. That is the narrative 97 is alluding to.

With McHale? 42 wins, first round loss. A okay. Stockton? Could not function as a #1 option because of his limited scoring ability. Fine. Right around Pippen all-time and he gets almost no scrutiny--and when he does Pippen detractors rush to defend Stockton.

[getting_old]

I think what 97 was getting at (based on his past posts) is the double standard. It doesn't even come up with McHale or Stockton, for example, yet is the big indictment against Pippen.



That was baked into Boston's 88' performance, which was a step back from 87' which in turn was a regression from their 86' peak. What people bring up is the 88' Celtics won 57 games and made the ECF; without Bird it was 42 wins and a first round loss (with Reggie Lewis replacing Bird and putting up 19/5/3--a legit replacement, not Pete Myers).

McHale had some extenuating circumstances but so did Pippen. For Pippen none of this matters: the charge is the Bulls should have won with Myers in place of MJ, no ifs ands or buts! That they did not "shows" they were bums who couldn't win without MJ--if they didn't do it in one year it means they never ever could have. That is the narrative 97 is alluding to.

With McHale? 42 wins, first round loss. A okay. Stockton? Could not function as a #1 option because of his limited scoring ability. Fine. Right around Pippen all-time and he gets almost no scrutiny--and when he does Pippen detractors rush to defend Stockton.

good points!

I read that Bird was usually upset with Kevin due to KM's lack of killer instinct and drive for perfection that Larry brought to the game. Same thing with Kobe yelling at Shaq, and everyone in a Bulls uniform getting yelled at by MJ.

[RRR3]

Some posters still don't get it. When Ginobli was coming of the bench, Pop brought him off the bench so often was because of durability reasons. Plus some coaches PREFER having a Hondo-Harden-Manu-Crawford-Lou Will of their bench to make their benches was stronger. In the case of Harden and Hondo, they were superstar players READY to break out. But YOUNG in their careers, they came off the bench for teams that were title contenders. But AT SOME POINT the cream rises to the top. And they were going to be starters and FROM THERE becomes the best player at their respective position. McHale is FOR DAMN SURE in that Harden and Hondo mode.

As I said before, Boston drafted Bird to play PF. Bird was a center in college. So when Boston drafted McHale, DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Bird. But ONCE AGAIN, the cream rises to the top! McHale was SO GOOD that they moved Bird to SF (a position he still played at times as it was) and McHale held down the PF spot. Guys like Manu-Crawford-Lou Will AREN'T superstar level players. They are All Star types of players at times who come off the bench for durability reasons, total lack of defense, they are small combo guards who are really DOMINANT at either position, or they are inefficient scoring the rock. For guys like that, it's for one of those reasons. With Kev, he got drafted by a team who ALREADY had a superstar player in his position. A team ready to win a ring on top of it. Yet he was SO GOOD that Bird MOVED to SF more exclusively so McHale could start!!
I wouldn't lump Manu with Crawford and Lou Williams. And I wouldn't lump Lou Williams with Crawford.

[bizil]

I wouldn't lump Manu with Crawford and Lou Williams. And I wouldn't lump Lou Williams with Crawford.

The THING IS you OVERLOOKED how I broke down the DIFFERENT reasons they come off the bench. I GAVE four DIFFERENT reasons guys like that came off the bench. I gave four different reasons BECAUSE each of their cases were different from each other. Next on the agenda, I LUMPED them together in a sense BECAUSE they are frankly 3 of the top 10 Sixth Men of ALL TIME! All of them have won 6th Man of the Year awards largely because of their scoring ability off the bench. Plus ALL OF THEM can play the PG spot if they have to as well. So NO QUESTION those three AT LEAST have that in common. But WITH THAT SAID, Lou Will and Crawford are similar players. Lou Will is just a couple of inches shorter. Score first guards with sick handles who AREN'T very efficient from the field. And are average to below average defenders. They are starter quality BUT are better off as scoring punch off the bench. Because u need guys in your starting lineup who can fill certain roles like defense. Their scoring ability (while very good) isn't SO OVERWHELMING that they just HAD TO START.

[Roundball_Rock]

good points!

I read that Bird was usually upset with Kevin due to KM's lack of killer instinct and drive for perfection that Larry brought to the game. Same thing with Kobe yelling at Shaq, and everyone in a Bulls uniform getting yelled at by MJ.

That is interesting because Parish said Bird usually had a different style:


“What set Larry apart from Magic and Jordan was he wasn’t an in-your-face leader like they were,” Parish said. “He had too much respect for us. If you weren’t having a good night, he was more inclined to encourage you, or not say anything at all. But Magic and Jordan would jump all over you.”


He recalled one incident with MJ where he failed a training routine. Jordan went after him, telling him he didn’t like that, and Parish stood up for himself against the GOAT.

“I told him, ‘I’m not as enamored with you as these other guys. I’ve got some rings too,’” Parish recalled. “At that point he told me, ‘I’m going to kick your ass.’ I took one step closer and said, ‘No, you really aren’t.’ After that he didn’t bother me.”

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/24/robert-parish-explains-the-difference-between-michael-jordan-magic-johnson-and-larry-bird/

[ralph_i_el]

I think some are not understanding why I think he is overrated. I never mentioned his stats, numbers, him not producing, etc when bringing up why I think he's overrated. Basically, him coming off the bench the majority of his career is why I think so.

Could y'all imagine any other player coming off the bench the majority of his career that is ranked so highly? This would be like Patrick Ewng coming off the bench his entire career except for a few seasons in the mid 90s' So why is it okay for McHale to do so?

Ewing didn't play on teams that would benefit from him coming off the bench. If he was in that situation, he'd probably have a ring.

The way I look at 6th men is like this:

If you have a good starting lineup that plays really good team ball, and you have a ball-dominant player who can carry a lineup by themselves to decent results, have the ball-dominant guy run the bench unit and let the starters play optimal team ball.

Like, Jarrett Jack would be overshadowed as a starter on most good teams. His best skill was pull-up jumpers. I don't want him shooting a ton of those if I'm running good team offense. I can play him with my weak bench units, knowing that the worst that can happen is we end up having Jarrett take a pull up 2, which he'll hit like 45% of the time. Then I don't really have to worry about my bench unit falling apart.

If I'm the Celtics, and can run a GOAT level offense without McHale on the floor, I can just have him be the centerpiece of a good offense during my bench minutes, so my team has no minutes of incompetent offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Was he playing bench minutes, though? Here are the seasons he mostly came off the bench (cut off at 91', his last all-star season). His MPG and his team rank in MPG is in parentheses.

1981: 20.1 (6th, rookie year)
1982: 28.4 (5th)
1983: 28.6 (3rd)
1984: 31.4 (4th)
1985: 33.6 (5th)
1991: 30.4 (5th)

So he was playing starter's minutes--albeit was on the low end of MPG relative to his team's starters.

In the playoffs, from 1984-1991 (the span he was an all-star every year, except 85'), he played 34.7 MPG in the RS but that rose to 37.6 MPG in the postseason. As a comparison, the same numbers for the same years for Bird were 38.9/42.5 and for Parish 33.5/35.6.

[getting_old]

That is interesting because Parish said Bird usually had a different style:





https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/24/robert-parish-explains-the-difference-between-michael-jordan-magic-johnson-and-larry-bird/


Chief did his own thing, I'm sure nobody said a harsh thing to him. Only Oak would have had less lip from a teammate.

Bird's perfection and obsessive dedication was part of his game. I think it was an interview with Bill Simmons where he talked a bit about being upset with KM for not being as serious and riding him. I didn't see this displayed during games. Practice time was cutthroat for the C's.

[Roundball_Rock]

They need to do a Last Dance length doc on the 80s's Lakers, 80's Celtics. So many personalities.

[Whoah10115]

The THING IS you OVERLOOKED how I broke down the DIFFERENT reasons they come off the bench. I GAVE four DIFFERENT reasons guys like that came off the bench. I gave four different reasons BECAUSE each of their cases were different from each other. Next on the agenda, I LUMPED them together in a sense BECAUSE they are frankly 3 of the top 10 Sixth Men of ALL TIME! All of them have won 6th Man of the Year awards largely because of their scoring ability off the bench. Plus ALL OF THEM can play the PG spot if they have to as well. So NO QUESTION those three AT LEAST have that in common. But WITH THAT SAID, Lou Will and Crawford are similar players. Lou Will is just a couple of inches shorter. Score first guards with sick handles who AREN'T very efficient from the field. And are average to below average defenders. They are starter quality BUT are better off as scoring punch off the bench. Because u need guys in your starting lineup who can fill certain roles like defense. Their scoring ability (while very good) isn't SO OVERWHELMING that they just HAD TO START.

Only disagreement is that Ginobili is a superstar. Guy is one of the best SGs ever. His overall efficiency, his defense, his scoring, his passing and playmaking. He had years where he was Spurs' best player, starting and on the bench.

And I dont agree that Popp was trying to preserve him; he just wanted to use him off the bench.

[Turbo Slayer]

How is Kevin Mchale overrated when people don't even talk about him nowadays? Food for thought.

[L.Kizzle]

Because nobody ranks McHale in the top 30 ever category, and he was only the best player on his team for one year, too small of a sample size.

Only reason why Pippen gets so much scrutiny is because he played with MJ, and you have tons of trolls either downplaying or overplaying Pippen's accomplishments to make MJ look a certain way. Bird doesn't crazy obsessed fans or haters to constantly hype up or downplay his teammates success.

McHale is usually ranked around 25-35 on most All-Time list and it's usually over guys who led teams to titles as the man (Rick Barry) or guys who at leas led teams to a Finals appearance (Ewing, Drexler) or former MVPs who did both (Pettit, Unseld, Cowens, Reed.)

ESPN top 74 (2020)
Ranked number 36

ESPN Top 100 (2016)
Ranked number 31

SLAM Top 100 (2018)
Ranked number 40

SLAM Top 500 (2011)
Ranked number 26

[iamgine]

McHale is usually ranked around 25-35 on most All-Time list and it's usually over guys who led teams to titles as the man (Rick Barry) or guys who at leas led teams to a Finals appearance (Ewing, Drexler) or former MVPs who did both (Pettit, Unseld, Cowens, Reed.)

ESPN top 74 (2020)
Ranked number 36

ESPN Top 100 (2016)
Ranked number 31

SLAM Top 100 (2018)
Ranked number 40

SLAM Top 500 (2011)
Ranked number 26
Well they probably took into account that Mchale had a few rings, one of which as a core part of a very iconic team ('86 Celtics). After all, it is about greatness, not best. And in that case unimportant stuff like "greatest dunker" or "most triple double ever" is likely to be considered.

[Shooter]

McHale is usually ranked around 25-35 on most All-Time list and it's usually over guys who led teams to titles as the man (Rick Barry) or guys who at leas led teams to a Finals appearance (Ewing, Drexler) or former MVPs who did both (Pettit, Unseld, Cowens, Reed.)

ESPN top 74 (2020)
Ranked number 36

ESPN Top 100 (2016)
Ranked number 31

SLAM Top 100 (2018)
Ranked number 40

SLAM Top 500 (2011)
Ranked number 26

Well, I heard that Larry bird fella was a pretty good player and a damn good scorer. McHale outscored Bird in 2 of 4 Finals. Back to back even. McHale outscored Bird in the 1985 and 1986 Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is losing the finals as "the man" (not a real category) this great achievement? Isn't that the big charge against LeBron, that he won "only" 3 times in 9 trips? Then why should a player who went "0-1" in a decade as "the man" be hailed over a winner like McHale? Winning either matters or it doesn't. (Drexler is a fascinating case. He actually won a finals and no fan ever mentions it on ISH or elsewhere--it is viewed as that relevant.)

If you put McHale on 20+ other teams in the 80's he would be "the man" while all those other players that got mentioned would be a "sidekick" to Bird. It doesn't change a thing about them as players. We can't penalize McHale for winning and credit other players for losing solely based on who they played with. McHale showed up for the finals, unlike some of the names we hear about it.

[bizil]

Only disagreement is that Ginobili is a superstar. Guy is one of the best SGs ever. His overall efficiency, his defense, his scoring, his passing and playmaking. He had years where he was Spurs' best player, starting and on the bench.

And I dont agree that Popp was trying to preserve him; he just wanted to use him off the bench.


Manu WAS NOT a superstar!! LMAO!!! Superstars DON'T come off the bench in the fashion Manu did! If Pop had Kobe, D Wade, Vince, Ray, AI, or T Mac in their primes, NONE OF THEM come off the bench in their primes the way Manu did!!! And Pop WANTED to use him off the bench LARGELY because of preserving Manu as time went on. Look at the minutes Manu played. He only played AT LEAST 30 minutes per game in his career TWICE!! Superstar players are WORKHORSES!!! ALWAYS play at least 30 minutes a night EASY!!!

Manu was the MOST TALENTED guard on those Spurs teams! The SG's playing ahead of him WEREN'T anywhere close to his level as a player quite frankly! But they called him "El Contusion" for a reason!!! It's because he was known play through all kinds of injuries. And even though he was tough as hell, SOME GUYS are bit more brittle or prone to get banged up.

That's why I said DURABILITY WISE, Pop wanted to get the most bang for his buck with Manu. When Manu first came in the league, I'm NOT SAYING that was the case necessarily. BUT as time went, I think Pop determined that to be a very key factor. He could come off the bench and go all out in spurts. Then he'll be in the game at the end to help close it out. It's not rocket science!! He averaged 25.4 minutes per game in his career. Manu played 1057 games in his career. He ONLY STARTED 349 games in his career!

It's not a McHale situation where Bird was the PF at the time. And arguably the best player in the world! So DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Larry Legend. Then when the time was right, they moved Bird to SF and McHale became the best PF on the planet BEFORE Chuck and Mailman took off. And late in McHale's career, he came off the bench because he was banged up and outta his prime. Manu came off the bench WAY TOO MUCH and WASN'T a workhorse like the REAL SUPERSTARS in the league!!

[Whoah10115]

Manu WAS NOT a superstar!! LMAO!!! Superstars DON'T come off the bench in the fashion Manu did! If Pop had Kobe, D Wade, Vince, Ray, AI, or T Mac in their primes, NONE OF THEM come off the bench in their primes the way Manu did!!! And Pop WANTED to use him off the bench LARGELY because of preserving Manu as time went on. Look at the minutes Manu played. He only played AT LEAST 30 minutes per game in his career TWICE!! Superstar players are WORKHORSES!!! ALWAYS play at least 30 minutes a night EASY!!!

Manu was the MOST TALENTED guard on those Spurs teams! The SG's playing ahead of him WEREN'T anywhere close to his level as a player quite frankly! But they called him "El Contusion" for a reason!!! It's because he was known play through all kinds of injuries. And even though he was tough as hell, SOME GUYS are bit more brittle or prone to get banged up.

That's why I said DURABILITY WISE, Pop wanted to get the most bang for his buck with Manu. When Manu first came in the league, I'm NOT SAYING that was the case necessarily. BUT as time went, I think Pop determined that to be a very key factor. He could come off the bench and go all out in spurts. Then he'll be in the game at the end to help close it out. It's not rocket science!! He averaged 25.4 minutes per game in his career. Manu played 1057 games in his career. He ONLY STARTED 349 games in his career!

It's not a McHale situation where Bird was the PF at the time. And arguably the best player in the world! So DAMN RIGHT he's coming off the bench behind Larry Legend. Then when the time was right, they moved Bird to SF and McHale became the best PF on the planet BEFORE Chuck and Mailman took off. And late in McHale's career, he came off the bench because he was banged up and outta his prime. Manu came off the bench WAY TOO MUCH and WASN'T a workhorse like the REAL SUPERSTARS in the league!!

Don't agree.

Pretty simple.

[jayfan]

I'd like to know why nobody is holding the fact that McHale never led a team to a Championship against him. He took over as the leader of the Celtics in 89 and they were mediocre at best

Nobody's being stupid about McHale like they are Pippen. That's why.


.

[bizil]

Don't agree.

Pretty simple.

You don't have to agree! But I'm POINTING OUT FACTS to back up my points! I wasn't bashing your opinion at all. But my posts are FULL OF FACTS! Superstar players play more than 30 MPG ALL THE DAMN TIME! Superstar players don't play THE MAJORITY of their primes coming off the bench! I could see if the Spurs had a Kobe, Wade, Mac, Vince, etc. already there. And from there they brought Manu off the bench all those years. But all u gotta do it look at who was PLAYING AHEAD of Manu to know what time it was! Guys who couldn't hold his jock were starting ahead of him at the SG spot. When Manu first got to the Spurs, I'm not saying it was a durability thing. BUT it HAD to become an issue.

It was a SMART FORM of load management frankly to do it like that. TRUE SUPERSTARS don't play behind role players or defensive specialists their ENTIRE CAREERS! At some point, they PROVE their worth and break out! And become superstars. Once you said Manu WAS A SUPERSTAR, it was downhill for you on this one! And OF COURSE Pop loved bringing a player like Manu off the bench. It's VERY RARE to have that type of player off the bench! But DURABILITY also played into that as time went on!

[getting_old]

Well, I heard that Larry bird fella was a pretty good player and a damn good scorer. McHale outscored Bird in 2 of 4 Finals. Back to back even. McHale outscored Bird in the 1985 and 1986 Finals.


Bird was almost perfectly consistent in this regular season and playoff stats.

The big disappointment was the Lakers choked in 81 and 86 on the way to the Finals, I choose to believe they deliberately took a dive to not get swept by those C's GOAT teams.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are the GOAT PF's finals stats:

Duncan 21/13/3 49%
Malone 20/10/3 46%
Dirk 24/10/2 40%
Barkley 27/13/6 48%
Garnett 17/9/3 47%
McHale 18/7/1 54%
Petit 28/17/3 42%
Hayes 21/12/1 44%
Gasol 17/10/3 53%
Rodman 5/9/1 48%

McHale compares fine to the group, and this doesn't separate out prime appearances (he was a rookie in 81' for instance).

Backpicks ranks McHale #38 all-time, between Drexler and Baylor. Here is some of what they say about him:


A scoring machine in the post, McHale was a jukebox of herky-jerky moves. In his first three seasons, he was more of a defensive specialist before really ramping up his offense in 1984. McHale hit another gear in 1987 on offense (see chart below), showcasing a midrange game, good offensive rebounding and his arsenal of up-fakes in the low post. His high release made his shot extremely difficult to disrupt, and he could toss quality high-low passes, although he rarely distributed relative to his scoring volume. His black hole profile wasn’t because he kept finishing Larry Bird passes either, because in 1989 without Bird, McHale’s assists didn’t budge.

Defensively, he was a Gumby-like creature, often guarding small forwards when Boston went big because of his ability to use length to contain and bother perimeter players.6 He was long enough to protect the rim — posting elite block rates when younger (4-5 percent) and then strong ones throughout his prime (closer to 3 percent) — and of course, at 6-foot-10 he could switch onto bigs. He was a decent defensive rebounder, although he never stood out there statistically, possibly because he shared the court with Bird and Parish (good boarders) and was busy guarding wings at times.


As you can see, McHale exploded in 1987, upping his scoring efficiency to all-time levels on strong volume. His WOWY runs were good too after hitting his peak; in 1988, he missed 14 games and the otherwise full-strength Celtics improved from a 51-win clip (3.4 SRS) to a 62-win mark (7.9 SRS) with him, and in 1991, a “healthy” team moved from a 47-win pace (1.9 SRS) in 13 games without him to a 63-win pace with him (8.1 SRS).7 This gives him the 27th-best WOWY score in my database (+3.9) and a comparable WOWYR value (+3.3), painting him as an impact player who is a level or so removed from the MVPs.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/08/goat-36-40/#McHale

[1987_Lakers]

McHale was super pleasing to watch, he was unstoppable in the low post and a very good defensive player, I bet some people don't even realize he could guard SFs very effectively, I've seen him shut down Dominique Wilkins in a couple of playoff games in '86. And as mentioned before, he always stepped up his game in the postseason

'85 Finals: 26/11/2 blk on 60 FG%
'86 Finals: 26/9/3 blk on 57 FG%
'87 Finals: 21/9 on on 59 FG% (broken foot)

Those are all-time great side kick numbers, you can say that at his peak he was the best scoring and defensive PF the league had seen at that point, to this day there hasn't been a PF to replicate his post moves. Those factors are the main reason why he is looked at as a top 6 pf ever.

[Jasper]

I am not even going to discuss this = he is a HOF'er and top 50 nough said

[L.Kizzle]

Well they probably took into account that Mchale had a few rings, one of which as a core part of a very iconic team ('86 Celtics). After all, it is about greatness, not best. And in that case unimportant stuff like "greatest dunker" or "most triple double ever" is likely to be considered.

James Worthy (few rings, part of iconic team) never gets ranked nearly as high as McHale.

[L.Kizzle]

Well, I heard that Larry bird fella was a pretty good player and a damn good scorer. McHale outscored Bird in 2 of 4 Finals. Back to back even. McHale outscored Bird in the 1985 and 1986 Finals.

Worthy outscored Magic. Even won Finals MVP over him.

[L.Kizzle]

Why is losing the finals as "the man" (not a real category) this great achievement? Isn't that the big charge against LeBron, that he won "only" 3 times in 9 trips? Then why should a player who went "0-1" in a decade as "the man" be hailed over a winner like McHale? Winning either matters or it doesn't. (Drexler is a fascinating case. He actually won a finals and no fan ever mentions it on ISH or elsewhere--it is viewed as that relevant.)

If you put McHale on 20+ other teams in the 80's he would be "the man" while all those other players that got mentioned would be a "sidekick" to Bird. It doesn't change a thing about them as players. We can't penalize McHale for winning and credit other players for losing solely based on who they played with. McHale showed up for the finals, unlike some of the names we hear about it.
It's a "great achievement" because they carried a team to the brink of a championship.
Winning definitely matters but you have to put winning in context.

Is Robert Horry a winner? Of course he is.
Does his winning mean he's a better player than Karl Malone because he came up empty when it counted multiple times?

If McHale is the man in the 80s on, let's say the Washington Bullets in place of Jeff Ruland does he lead them to similar record as Ruland did? Ruland had them hovering at around the .500 mark in his five season as a Bullet. Does he get around the same numbers? 19/11 on .56% FG. Or will be be more Dominique Wilkins with similar numbers and team success?

[1987_Lakers]

Worthy outscored Magic. Even won Finals MVP over him.

Is it really that shocking? Bird was a better scorer than Magic. Both Magic and Worthy were always around the 20 ppg mark during their primes. Worthy was very clutch, but I don't see how you can argue him being a better player than McHale. McHale could create for himself on a higher level, he was more efficient than Worthy and was an All-NBA defender, Worthy was never considered an elite defender.

Even without Bird, a slightly past prime McHale averaged 23/8 on 55 FG% and even made an All-Defensive team in '89. Worthy averaged 20 ppg in 1992 but saw in efficiency drop dramatically without Magic shooting 45%, his efficiency was never the same without Magic.

[Round Mound]

McHale was super pleasing to watch, he was unstoppable in the low post and a very good defensive player, I bet some people don't even realize he could guard SFs very effectively, I've seen him shut down Dominique Wilkins in a couple of playoff games in '86. And as mentioned before, he always stepped up his game in the postseason

'85 Finals: 26/11/2 blk on 60 FG%
'86 Finals: 26/9/3 blk on 57 FG%
'87 Finals: 21/9 on on 59 FG% (broken foot)

Those are all-time great side kick numbers, you can say that at his peak he was the best scoring and defensive PF the league had seen at that point, to this day there hasn't been a PF to replicate his post moves. Those factors are the main reason why he is looked at as a top 6 pf ever.

:applause:

[Shooter]

Worthy outscored Magic. Even won Finals MVP over him.

But Magic never was a great scorer though. He never averaged over 24 ppg for one season in his whole career. Not once. On the other hand, in Bird's prime, McHale outscored Bird in back to back Finals, (1985 and 1986). So it's not the same, obviously.

[Roundball_Rock]

James Worthy (few rings, part of iconic team) never gets ranked nearly as high as McHale.

That's because it isn't about rings. Worthy never made 1st team all-NBA, Worthy was never top 5 in MVP voting, etc. McHale simply was a better player.


Worthy outscored Magic.

Worthy was the leading scorer in most years after KAJ got to 87' (39 years old) so that is to be expected (Magic led in scoring once, Scott once but it was Worthy every other year from 1987-1991). McHale was outscoring the first option, which is surprising.


If McHale is the man in the 80s on, let's say the Washington Bullets in place of Jeff Ruland does he lead them to similar record as Ruland did?

You have to apply the same standard to each player. If you put Miller, Ewing, Drexler on the Bullets what happens? Or put McHale on the Blazers, Knicks, or Pacers. If you did an all-time draft it probably goes Ewing, McHale, Drexler, Miller.

Miller is a weird case. The Pacers ran more offense through Rik Smits when Smits was in the game yet Miller (a 1x all-star in 7 years before Spike Lee) gets credit as "carrying" or being an "alph alpha 1st option" when he often was 2nd, 3rd in usage on his team (sometimes even 4th). If he was ceding so much usage to Rik Smits (or Chuck Person, Detlef Schrempf, Jalen Rose, etc.), imagine if McHale and Miller were on the same team. :lol Obviously McHale would be the clear #1.

This is the problem with the "option stuff" it often gives artificial credit to inferior players. It is obvious McHale would be the #1 option if he played with Miller so why is McHale penalized in the comparison because he played with Bird? What "option" would Miller be on the Celtics? Bird, McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson were all better players than Smits.

[bizil]

I see some posters are UNDERRATING Magic's scoring ability. Magic FLAT OUT was a great scorer! He had alpha dog scoring ability FOR SURE! The thing is he was a TRUE pass first PG. And had MANY very good to great scorers on his squads. From Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, B Scott, and Norm Nixon.

So for a pass first type guy like Magic, he got THE MOST out of those guys. Not many true PASS FIRST PG's average 24 PPG in a season. During Magic's prime, he AND Isiah for that matter were ACTUALLY among the top 10 most dangerous perimeter scorers in the league. It's just that they were winning assists titles being true pass first PG's. BUT when it was time to really takeover games and dominate scoring, they did it on an ALPHA DOG LEVEL!!

Don't get fooled by them scoring 19-24 PPG. They were TRUE pass first guys who played with very capable of scorers. They put MORE OF A PREMIUM of being the quarterback and dropping dimes. Bron, Oscar, Magic, and Zeke were pass first guys who were ALSO great scorers. Bron and Oscar were more dominant scorers BUT Magic still nonetheless had alpha dog scoring ability! Plus he had EPIC efficiency FG and FT wise!

[Manny98]

Nah Allen Iverson is WAY more overrated

Most undeserving MVP ever and people acting like he carried that Philly team when in reality they won on their fearsome defense

Mutombo was more valuable for that Philly team than AI

Iverson is literally the definition of all flash no substance

[Lion's pride]

I am guessing many never real took a close look at McHale in his prime. He was totally unstoppable. a solid defender as well. Only weakness was he hated to pass the ball. Charles Barkley has stated many times "McHale was the best player he ever played against"

McHale, like Scottie Pippen, played under the biggest shadow's in NBA history, therefor affecting his overall image.

[3ball]

I wasn't comparing them (Kareem and Elvin) as players but just the huge minutes. McAdoo, Lanier, Dave Cowens, Haywood and other bigs played 40+ minutes in the early to mid 70s. It was normal. All had similar FG% besides McAdoo and Lanier.


I am guessing many never real took a close look at McHale in his prime. He was totally unstoppable. a solid defender as well. Only weakness was he hated to pass the ball. Charles Barkley has stated many times "McHale was the best player he ever played against"

McHale, like Scottie Pippen, played under the biggest shadow's in NBA history, therefor affecting his overall image.

jfc stop comparing McHale and Pippen

Pippen never played anywhere near McHale's level in the 85-87' Finals or 1988

Unlike Pippen, McHale has the stats and peak playoff performance to back up his ranking - Pippen does not, and is therefore the only fraud between the two

what was pippen's peak playoff performance - and how does that compare to McHale... IT DOESN'T COMPARE

[Roundball_Rock]

I see some posters are UNDERRATING Magic's scoring ability. Magic FLAT OUT was a great scorer!

Well, what people are saying is Bird was a better scorer. Magic was great but Bird greater as a scorer. The other point people are making is McHale outscoring Bird is different than Worthy outscoring Magic. The latter was expected--that is how the offense worked (leading scorer leading the team in scoring :oldlol: )--but the former was not.


He was totally unstoppable. a solid defender as well. Only weakness was he hated to pass the ball. Charles Barkley has stated many times "McHale was the best player he ever played against"

That is high praise from CB!

[bizil]

Well, what people are saying is Bird was a better scorer. Magic was great but Bird greater as a scorer. The other point people are making is McHale outscoring Bird is different than Worthy outscoring Magic. The latter was expected--that is how the offense worked (leading scorer leading the team in scoring :oldlol: )--but the former was not.



That is high praise from CB!

Bird was a superior scorer to Magic for sure! Just saw some posters making it seem like Magic wasn't a great scorer himself. IF Bird was on teams NOT AS DEEP as Boston, he could have taken some scoring titles from MJ. He was the best shooter on Earth (50-40-90 shit) and IN GENERAL had it all scoring the rock!

[Axe]

With 4,084 points spread between bird and johnson in terms of scoring in their whole career, it's already obvious who's the greater scorer bet. the two.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bird was a superior scorer to Magic for sure! Just saw some posters making it seem like Magic wasn't a great scorer himself. IF Bird was on teams NOT AS DEEP as Boston, he could have taken some scoring titles from MJ. He was the best shooter on Earth (50-40-90 shit) and IN GENERAL had it all scoring the rock!

Agree on all those points!

[L.Kizzle]

Better than 2 time MVP Karl Malone in 2022
Better than 5 time champ Tim Duncan in 2023

He's creeping up that all time PF list.

[La Frescobaldi]

Only disagreement is that Ginobili is a superstar. Guy is one of the best SGs ever. His overall efficiency, his defense, his scoring, his passing and playmaking. He had years where he was Spurs' best player, starting and on the bench.

And I dont agree that Popp was trying to preserve him; he just wanted to use him off the bench.

mg was a superstar any other view of that is mistaken. It’s a fundamental mistake not understanding superstar guys that come of the bench.
They are very rare — so much that you can probably name them:
John Havlicek actually wasn’t the first Sixth Man like people believe and say. The first actually was Sam Jones behind Sharman and also somewhat, Cousy.
Billy Cunningham
Bobby Jones
Kevin McHale
T Kukoc
Robert Horry
Manu

The whole game changes when these kinds of guys go out on the floor. Gets faster, gets harder, gets smarter - whatever you want to call it, they elevate their team FAR beyond being a bench player or a simple role player. Very, very rare ability, not understood by most fans, players, even coaches or GMs.

People throw Horry into that “best role player ever” mix and yeah I get it. But he was a lot more than that, even when he wasnÂ’t a starter. He wasn’t a star though, unlike the others.. I believe because of his small country town demeanor
If it’s 4q of a hard playoff game I’m taking Robert Horry 10 times out of 10 over Karl Malone. A 100%

Every one of those guys. A 100%

[Round Mound]

Here are the GOAT PF's finals stats:

Duncan 21/13/3 49%
Malone 20/10/3 46%
Dirk 24/10/2 40%
Barkley 27/13/6 48%
Garnett 17/9/3 47%
McHale 18/7/1 54%
Petit 28/17/3 42%
Hayes 21/12/1 44%
Gasol 17/10/3 53%
Rodman 5/9/1 48%

McHale compares fine to the group, and this doesn't separate out prime appearances (he was a rookie in 81' for instance).

Backpicks ranks McHale #38 all-time, between Drexler and Baylor. Here is some of what they say about him:





https://backpicks.com/2018/03/08/goat-36-40/#McHale

Barkley put up the better numbers of all PFs against the Bulls despite the fact that he was elbow injured from game 2 onwards.