can anyone point out a goat accomplishment for lebron that can't easily be busted up?

[3ball]

longevity = lower production rate over longer time period

8 straight ECF wins = formed super-team in weak conference

16' Finals = KJ destroys MJ in 93' Finals and we say Barkley had goat accomplishment by winning that series


anything I missed?

[FultzNationRISE]

Beyonce.

[Axe]

Crap, you're back at it again. :facepalm

[iamgine]

Well "busted" is a subjective standard in this scenario so anything can be busted.

For example, MJ is a winner = best supporting cast + GOAT coach. Before that, 1-9.

[SouBeachTalents]

Having someone make 26,000 posts about you is the GOAT accomplishment. Only a truly special player could evoke that kind of attention and dedication

[ELITEpower23]

Having someone make 26,000 posts about you is the GOAT accomplishment. Only a truly special player could evoke that kind of attention and dedication

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[AintNoSunshine]

Haven't logged in for 4-5 years, come in to see 3ball still posting about Lebron. That's a whole other level of sadness. You only live once, please do something else. Can you even count how many hours you spend thinking about, hating on, another man? Jordan doesn't even know you, Lebron doesn't even know you. You are wasting away your life for what?

[SATAN]

Haven't logged in for 4-5 years, come in to see 3ball still posting about Lebron. That's a whole other level of sadness. You only live once, please do something else. Can you even count how many hours you spend thinking about, hating on, another man? Jordan doesn't even know you, Lebron doesn't even know you. You are wasting away your life for what?

:oldlol:

[Axe]

Haven't logged in for 4-5 years, come in to see 3ball still posting about Lebron. That's a whole other level of sadness. You only live once, please do something else. Can you even count how many hours you spend thinking about, hating on, another man? Jordan doesn't even know you, Lebron doesn't even know you. You are wasting away your life for what?
Don't expect anything from that dude nor his counterpart.

[Turbo Slayer]

Here's what I don't get. "Superteams" has been around since the inception of the NBA/ABA. In fact if you separate "superteam" and split it into 2 words. It would be "super" and "team". Super means excellent and team means group of players forming 1 side in a competitive sport. So "stacking the deck" has always been a theme throughout league's history.

[Turbo Slayer]

I admit that I thought longevity wasn't important. It is kind of important to a team that wants to compete and contend in the POs as long as possible. It's a reason why Spurs were able to win more titles as time progressed because Duncan was simply that damn good of a player and an all-time great at that stuff.

[Axe]

Wow, a creepy poster who wants to insult me and follow me everywhere I post. Just stop, dude. Ain't no one need this shit. Either stfu or start contributing to the NBA forum with some constructive and awesome posts like I do. That's all I gotta say about you. I don't take anything personal from you. What did I do to ever make you so angry about me? LOL. Relax. This is an internet forum.
:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow, a creepy poster who wants to insult me and follow me everywhere I post. Just stop, dude. Ain't no one need this shit. Either stfu or start contributing to the NBA forum with some constructive and awesome posts like I do. That's all I gotta say about you. I don't take anything personal from you. What did I do to ever make you so angry about me? LOL. Relax. This is an internet forum.

ain't that some sad truf

[3ball]

so no one can point out a goat accomplishment for lebron?

I rest my case... FRAUD

[3ball]

Well "busted" is a subjective standard in this scenario so anything can be busted.





But MJ has clear-cut goat accomplishments:



- 6 rings as the best player in the modern era/3-pointer basketball (twice as many as anyone else, or at least 2 more than everyone else)

- goat production rate (PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons)

- 2 three-peats (peak shaq only has 1, while Kobe/lebron/durant failed to get 1)


^^^ goat accomplishments... :confusedshrug:






1-9.




It's unlucky that Jordan's 30 and 40-win teams made the playoffs as the 8 seed and faced the impossible 8 vs 1 matchup.

Meanwhile, Lebron was lucky his 30-40-win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', therefore avoiding the 8 vs 1 matchup that would've sent him home early.. he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and never had to carry a low seed/bad team in the playoffs..

Since lebron's high seeds lose by record amount, it would've been fun to see his 8 seeds in 05' and 19' against the KD Warriors or Wallace Pistons.






GOAT supporting cast




How many guys were all-stars alongside Jordan and other greats??


Kareem.... 9 all-star teammates = 6 rings

Lebron..... 6 all-star teammates = 3 rings

Magic...... 9 all-star teammates = 5 rings

Jordan..... 1 all-star teammates = 6 rings


No comparison... And even if you want to say that BJ and Grant were 1-time all-star in 1994 - that doesn't compare to the multiple perennial all-stars that other guys played with.







GOAT coach



Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals.

They were already taking the champs to 6 games despite only 9 on 40% from their 2nd best player

Phil was considered a 1st-time nobody coach when they won in 1991, while mj was the goat candidate.. Phil needed to win 72 to get coach of the year, and never won anything without Jordan or his clone..

indeed, the triangle got looks for role players but was still ordinary without someone to bail out one-third of possessions.. this is why it was an non-descript offense until MJ and Kobe got a hold of it (of course, MJ's triangles had much bigger margins above league average than Kobe's or Shaq's, despite less offensive help)

[Wally450]

Having someone make 26,000 posts about you is the GOAT accomplishment. Only a truly special player could evoke that kind of attention and dedication

This might be his greatest accomplishment. Better than defeating a 73 win team in the Finals down 3-1.

[iamgine]

But MJ has clear-cut goat accomplishments:



- 6 rings as the best player in the modern era/3-pointer basketball (twice as many as anyone else, or at least 2 more than everyone else)

- goat production rate (PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons)

- 2 three-peats (peak shaq only has 1, while Kobe/lebron/durant failed to get 1)


^^^ goat accomplishments... :confusedshrug:





It's unlucky that Jordan's 30 and 40-win teams made the playoffs as the 8 seed and faced the impossible 8 vs 1 matchup.

Meanwhile, Lebron was lucky his 30-40-win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', therefore avoiding the 8 vs 1 matchup that would've sent him home early.. he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and never had to carry a low seed/bad team in the playoffs..

Since lebron's high seeds lose by record amount, it would've been fun to see his 8 seeds in 05' and 19' against the KD Warriors or Wallace Pistons.




How many guys were all-stars alongside Jordan and other greats??


Kareem.... 9 all-star teammates = 6 rings

Lebron..... 6 all-star teammates = 3 rings

Magic...... 9 all-star teammates = 5 rings

Jordan..... 1 all-star teammates = 6 rings


No comparison... And even if you want to say that BJ and Grant were 1-time all-star in 1994 - that doesn't compare to the multiple perennial all-stars that other guys played with.




Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals.

They were already taking the champs to 6 games despite only 9 on 40% from their 2nd best player

Phil was considered a 1st-time nobody coach when they won in 1991, while mj was the goat candidate.. Phil needed to win 72 to get coach of the year, and never won anything without Jordan or his clone..

indeed, the triangle got looks for role players but was still ordinary without someone to bail out one-third of possessions.. this is why it was an non-descript offense until MJ and Kobe got a hold of it (of course, MJ's triangles had much bigger margins above league average than Kobe's or Shaq's, despite less offensive help)
Subjectively your argument is just a bunch of subjective justification and excuses so they means nothing to me and my argument still stands.

MJ is a winner = best supporting cast + GOAT coach. Before that, 1-9.

You see the problem.

[sdot_thadon]

Having someone make 26,000 posts about you is the GOAT accomplishment. Only a truly special player could evoke that kind of attention and dedication

what's more amazing is if you include his ABA stats (posts before here) he's probably well over 100k. wow.

[3ball]

Subjectively your argument is just a bunch of subjective justification and excuses so they means nothing to me and my argument still stands.

MJ is a winner = best supporting cast + GOAT coach. Before that, 1-9.

You see the problem.


again, where are lebron's goat accomplishments?

he has none, while mj has several - goat production rate, 2 three-peats, 6 modern era rings as best player (2 more than anyone else)

^^^ that isn't subjective - it's historical fact - history shows lebron with no goat accomplishment, while MJ has several

[Roundball_Rock]

While you were serving your most recent ban an amazing thing happened: MJ stans finally admitted he had a stacked team. Being MJ stans drunk on their agenda, they didn't grasp the implication but it was obvious to any observer: if the Bulls with Pete Myers replacing Jordan are the best supporting cast in the league (better than the champs, better than the Spurs, equal to the Knicks per MJ stans) and should have won the chip even without him based on that strength, then with MJ himself joining the team--which makes that cast even stronger (as their best player sans MJ becomes a cast member)--the Bulls stacked cast is unbeatable. Glad to see MJ stans finally concede how 6-0 happened. :cheers:

[3ball]

while you were serving your most recent ban an amazing thing happened: MJ stans finally admitted he had a stacked team. :banana:




no one thought the bulls were stacked in the 90's - only today's fans can be fooled by all the fake news of today's time

if the bulls were "stacked", they wouldn't be the lowest scoring casts in Finals history and MJ wouldn't have the goat production rate.. and they would have more perennial all-stars like every "stacked" team has always had.






Being MJ stans drunk on their agenda, they didn't grasp the implication but it was obvious to any observer: if the Bulls with Pete Myers replacing Jordan are the best supporting cast in the league (better than the champs, better than the Spurs, equal to the Knicks per MJ stans) and should have won the chip even without him based on that strength, then with MJ himself joining the team--which makes that cast even stronger (as their best player sans MJ becomes a cast member)--the Bulls stacked cast is unbeatable.




the definition of "good brand of ball" is that it wins off sheer effectiveness of the strategy and ball-movement, and therefore doesn't need talent to win... And the 94' bulls had a simple dunker as their 2nd option - so they weren't talented and won via the 3-peat system they had developed (brand of ball).. Pippen was literally nothing without that system

Otoh, weaker brands like ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator, aka Nash and CP3 teams in 12' and 13', or lebron's teams

[Turbo Slayer]

The Bulls were stacked. Also 1-9. Is it a coincidence that the Bulls started to win once Pippen started to mature and the Bulls had surrounded MJ with great pieces. Lol. Before all that, 1-9 (without context, of course). :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

I am just relaying what your fellow MJ stans said. :D


And the 94' bulls had a simple dunker as their 2nd option

The Bulls' had an awesome 2nd option in 94' per MJ stans (I agree with you that Grant was limited offensively but take it up with your fellow MJ stans who concluded Grant must be awesome because he had a high FG % and hence a high O rating, not realizing the type of "shots" he was taking in 94' or that in 95' he literally was left open by design for most of the series).

[sdot_thadon]

no one thought the bulls were stacked in the 90's - only today's fans can be fooled by all the fake news of today's time

if the bulls were "stacked", they wouldn't be the lowest scoring casts in Finals history and MJ wouldn't have the goat production rate.. and they would have more perennial all-stars like every "stacked" team has always had.

If the Bulls weren't stacked the routine comparisons of MJ's 2nd option to other 1st options wouldn't exist.....

And to the question in the Op? There's no such thing as an accomplishment that can't have holes poked in it to someone who has already made up their mind. Lebron has plenty. 2016 is by far the best imo, but he has more than nearly any other player ever citing just a small handful of guys, think 4 maybe 5 that are comparable.

[3ball]

The Bulls were stacked. Also 1-9. Is it a coincidence that the Bulls started to win once Pippen started to mature and the Bulls had surrounded MJ with great pieces. Lol. Before all that, 1-9 (without context, of course). :lol

what would've happened if lebron's 9 seeds from 04', 05, and 19' snuck in as the 8 seed those years?

[Turbo Slayer]

what would've happened if lebron's 9 seeds from 04', 05, and 19' snuck in as the 8 seed those years?

Speculation. Pointless to discuss. 1-9 (without context). :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

Let me see... the Cavs comeback from a 3-1 deficit to win the series with the help of LeBron, Kyrie. LeBron pretty much beats everyone in Playoff VORP in all categories. Also LeBron leads the majority of the all-time greats in Playoff Win Shares. Has the most POs game winners. Led everyone in a series in all major statistical categories. Won against greatest teams of alltime the Spurs and the Warriors. He's on track to have the greatest longevity of any superstar ever if he plays for more years. #1 in Playoffs points. He's on track to breaking the all-time scoring record which is insane. He has the potential to have 40k/10k/10k alltime. So many goat accomplishments.

[Turbo Slayer]

I am just relaying what your fellow MJ stans said. :D



The Bulls' had an awesome 2nd option in 94' per MJ stans (I agree with you that Grant was limited offensively but take it up with your fellow MJ stans who concluded Grant must be awesome because he had a high FG % and hence a high O rating, not realizing the type of "shots" he was taking in 94' or that in 95' he literally was left open by design for most of the series).

:applause:

[3ball]

If the Bulls weren't stacked the routine comparisons of MJ's 2nd option to other 1st options wouldn't exist.....

And to the question in the Op? There's no such thing as an accomplishment that can't have holes poked in it to someone who has already made up their mind. Lebron has plenty. 2016 is by far the best imo, but he has more than nearly any other player ever citing just a small handful of guys, think 4 maybe 5 that are comparable.

you're saying that bonafide facts are opinion:

Lebron won 12 times - 9 ECF and 3 Finals

Jordan won 12 times - 6 ECF and 6 Finals

obviously, Jordan's 3 extra Finals wins > Lebron's 3 extra ECF

and pippen was never compared to magic, Barkley, Malone, Ewing or drexler . and Kemp or Payton dominated him in 96' Finals
.

[bullettooth]

LeBron's 6 finals losses are an impressive feat.

[Uncle Drew]

Having someone make 26,000 posts about you is the GOAT accomplishment. Only a truly special player could evoke that kind of attention and dedication

:oldlol:

[3ball]

my 26k posts are about MJ.. some of these explain how lebron and others are inferior by comparison

[sdot_thadon]

you're saying that bonafide facts are opinion:

Lebron won 12 times - 9 ECF and 3 Finals

Jordan won 12 times - 6 ECF and 6 Finals

obviously, Jordan's 3 extra Finals wins > Lebron's 3 extra ECF

and pippen was never compared to magic, Barkley, Malone, Ewing or drexler . and Kemp or Payton dominated him in 96' Finals
.

Your warped perception never fails to entertain, I'll give you that. I dont even care about anything you just said enough to reply except one lil bit. If Payton and Kemp "dominated" Pippen in the 96 finals....doesn't that mean they "dominated" Mj too? I mean the only direct matchup we hear about is Glove putting the clamps on good ol Air Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

If the Bulls weren't stacked the routine comparisons of MJ's 2nd option to other 1st options wouldn't exist.....

MJ stans themselves were saying a team with Horace Grant as the 2nd option had more "help" than the champs, Spurs and was equal to the Knicks even without MJ. So their 3rd option compares to those other 2nd options, or the totality of the "cast", overcomes any deficit between the usual 3rd option and rival contender's 2nd option.


and pippen was never compared to magic, Barkley, Malone, Ewing or drexler .

He was compared to Jordan himself. :lol We have posted the receipts many times; MJ stans simply eject any contrary information because MJ stans aren't interested in an actual conversation so no point posting the receipts yet again.


If Payton and Kemp "dominated" Pippen in the 96 finals....doesn't that mean they "dominated" Mj too?

Rodman outplayed Kemp but MJ stans' can never give MJ's teammates credit. A lot of people, including George Karl, thought Rodman should have been FMVP--Rodman was Kemp's assignment...


I mean the only direct matchup we hear about is Glove putting the clamps on good ol Air Jordan.

Yup. Kemp, Payton did not match up against a Pippen with 3 injuries. Rodman and Kemp did and Payton did with MJ for half the series--the part of the series where MJ struggled mightily.

[3ball]

Your warped perception never fails to entertain, I'll give you that. I dont even care about anything you just said enough to reply except one lil bit. If Payton and Kemp "dominated" Pippen in the 96 finals....doesn't that mean they "dominated" Mj too? I mean the only direct matchup we hear about is Glove putting the clamps on good ol Air Jordan.

Jordan's goat ring count in the modern era is FACT

Lebron's 16' Finals being goat is OPINION (and therefore easily busted up as I did in the OP with 1 sentence)

and Payton/Kemp/Schrempf dominated Pippen by outplaying him... they were hot, while pippen couldn't return fire (34%).. the bulls won the 96' Finals in spite if Pippen's ineptness.. this was COMMON... See the entire 96-98' playoffs (17 on 40%), or the 88-90' playoffs, or the 92' ECSF, 93' 1st Round, or 93' Playoffs overall (16.9 PER... 0.083 ws/48... aka worse than 14' Wade)

the worst part is that pippen would wet the bed against the best teams - the bulls won 5 series against top 5 SRS teams (good teams) with poor scoring and efficiency from Poopen (16 on 34-42%) - only MJ beat good teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams..

[iamgine]

again, where are lebron's goat accomplishments?

he has none, while mj has several - goat production rate, 2 three-peats, 6 modern era rings as best player (2 more than anyone else)

^^^ that isn't subjective - it's historical fact - history shows lebron with no goat accomplishment, while MJ has several

That is subjective. You subjectively consider that goat accomplishment. Someone else might have different criterias.

[Axe]

That is subjective. You subjectively consider that goat accomplishment. Someone else might have different criterias.
He doesn't realize that bran actually defeated a 73-win team.

[3ball]

That is subjective. You subjectively consider that goat accomplishment. Someone else might have different criterias.

goat accomplishment = something that is more than anyone else did

6 rings in the modern era (as the best player) = goat accomplishment

goat production rate = goat accomplishment

2 three-peats in modern era = goat accomplishment


16' Finals = subjective and only 1 series, aka not a substantive work (2 three-peats and 6 rings is substantive.. so is the goat production rate... and heck, lebron came back from 3-1 because HIS POOR PLAY put them there (24 and 6 TO thru 4 games))

[iamgine]

goat accomplishment = something that is more than anyone else did

6 rings in the modern era (as the best player) = goat accomplishment

goat production rate = goat accomplishment

2 three-peats in modern era = goat accomplishment


16' Finals = subjective and only 1 series, aka not a substantive work (2 three-peats and 6 rings is substantive.. so is the goat production rate... and heck, lebron came back from 3-1 because HIS POOR PLAY put them there (24 and 6 TO thru 4 games))
That is your subjective view.

Someone else can also have a subjective view. For example, only winning with best supporting cast + GOAT coach. Before that, 1-9 = Not goat accomplishment.

[3ball]

He doesn't realize that bran actually defeated a 73-win team.

one series isn't a substantive work and many others can use the same criteria to claim superiority over Jordan (Dwight > MJ because he beat 66-win team and MJ never did... Baron Davis beat a 67-win team as the 8 seed... etc, etc)

that's why it must be a substantive work because lots of guys can claim goat off 1 series... :rolleyes

[HylianNightmare]

I hate him but hes top 3

[3ball]

That is your subjective view.

Someone else can also have a subjective view. For example, only winning with best supporting cast + GOAT coach. Before that, 1-9 = Not goat accomplishment.

many others can use the same criteria to claim superiority over Jordan (Dwight > MJ because he beat 66-win team and MJ never did... Baron Davis beat a 67-win team as the 8 seed... etc, etc)

that's why it must be a substantive work because lots of guys can claim goat off 1 series... :rolleyes

only mj can say "I'm better than (whoever) because I have 6 fmvp's (twice as much as anyone else).. whereas LOTS of guys beat 65+ win teams (mj only beat 64-win team)

[iamgine]

many others can use the same criteria to claim superiority over Jordan (Dwight > MJ because he beat 66-win team and MJ never did... Baron Davis beat a 67-win team as the 8 seed... etc, etc)

that's why it must be a substantive work because lots of guys can claim goat off 1 series... :rolleyes

I appreciate your subjective view but don't pass it off as fact.

[3ball]

I appreciate your subjective view but don't pass it off as fact.

only mj can say "I'm better than (whoever) because I have 6 fmvp's (twice as much as anyone else).. whereas LOTS of guys beat 65+ win teams (mj only beat 64-win team)

^^ that's fact, not subjective

so lebron's 16' Finals is bogus because many guys can use that criteria to claim superiority over MJ... Whereas mj's goat arguments are exclusive to him

[Axe]

one series isn't a substantive work and many others can use the same criteria to claim superiority over Jordan (Dwight > MJ because he beat 66-win team and MJ never did... Baron Davis beat a 67-win team as the 8 seed... etc, etc)

that's why it must be a substantive work because lots of guys can claim goat off 1 series... :rolleyes
Yeah but the thing is, that 73-win team had a back-to-back mvp, back-to-back finals appearances and thus, were a dynasty in the making so it's safe to assume that they were not just some regular season juggernaut unlike some 60+ win teams you mentioned there.

[iamgine]

only mj can say "I'm better than (whoever) because I have 6 fmvp's (twice as much as anyone else).. whereas LOTS of guys beat 65+ win teams (mj only beat 64-win team)

^^ that's fact, not subjective

so lebron's 16' Finals is bogus because many guys can use that criteria to claim superiority over MJ... Whereas mj's goat arguments are exclusive to him

Uh anyone is free to say anything. Doesn't make them goat.

[3ball]

Yeah but the thing is, that 73-win team had a back-to-back mvp, back-to-back finals appearances and thus, were a dynasty in the making so it's safe to assume that they were not just some regular season juggernaut unlike some 60+ win teams you mentioned there.

Baron Davis beat a 67-win team with an 8 seed > lebron's high-seeded super-team beating an injured 73-win team (while his sidekick outplayed their whole team)

see, it's all subjective when you're only dealing with 1 series (not substantive)... whereas ONLY mj has 6 rings in the modern era, or 6 fmvp, or 2 three-peats, or the goat production rate

[FKAri]

Beating a 73 win team without home court advantage in the NBA Finals in 3 straight games culminating in a championship for the hapless city of Cleveland while outperforming the first unanimous MVP in history who is also back to back all while leading both teams in every box score statistic and having a rookie and never heard from since coach in Ty Lue at the helm. Also, JR Smith was on the roster and his #2 option was a flat earther.

[light]

Every GOAT argument can be busted.

If Bill Russell isn't GOAT then no argument is safe.

But that doesnt matter - it's about how people feel and right now it's between LeBron and Jordan. 1 and 2 or 2 and 1.

It's been this way for almost 10 years now and it won't go away so LeBron is having a lasting effect.

[ELITEpower23]

Haven't logged in for 4-5 years, come in to see 3ball still posting about Lebron. That's a whole other level of sadness. You only live once, please do something else. Can you even count how many hours you spend thinking about, hating on, another man? Jordan doesn't even know you, Lebron doesn't even know you. You are wasting away your life for what?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Every GOAT argument can be busted.

If Bill Russell isn't GOAT then no argument is safe.

But that doesnt matter - it's about how people feel and right now it's between LeBron and Jordan. 1 and 2 or 2 and 1.

It's been this way for almost 10 years now and it won't go away so LeBron is having a lasting effect.


there is no goat argument for Lebron.. only fake arguments that get busted up - that's why you literally cannot make an argument, and are reduced to essentially saying "because I said so"

otoh, mj has actual goat achievement that can't be refuted - goat production rate, goat ring count in modern era, 2 three-peats

[Roundball_Rock]

A problem for MJ and LeBron's cases is they are not #1 in any of the key categories of greatness: stats, winning, or longevity. LeBron may eclipse KAJ in longevity but isn't there yet. Russell is the biggest winner. For all the hype about MJ--his ring total is closer to Wilt's than it is to Russell's. Somehow 6>3 without the same people grasping 11>6+3 :lol . Wilt has the best stats and individual dominance. His raw numbers are brought down by him playing different roles later in his career (something MJ never did, outside of for 20 games and we hear all the time about them) but when asked to score and put up monster numbers for himself Wilt did it to a level no one else did.

MJ, LeBron have to rely more on "all of the above" or "eye test" and other fuzzy arguments to get there. For the others it is cleaner.

[Stephonit]

Beating a 73 win team without home court advantage in the NBA Finals in 3 straight games culminating in a championship for the hapless city of Cleveland while outperforming the first unanimous MVP in history who is also back to back all while leading both teams in every box score statistic and having a rookie and never heard from since coach in Ty Lue at the helm. Also, JR Smith was on the roster and his #2 option was a flat earther.

Things only turned around after the league intervened.

[Phoenix]

A problem for MJ and LeBron's cases is they are not #1 in any of the key categories of greatness: stats, winning, or longevity. LeBron may eclipse KAJ in longevity but isn't there yet. Russell is the biggest winner. For all the hype about MJ--his ring total is closer to Wilt's than it is to Russell's. Somehow 6>3 without the same people grasping 11>6+3 :lol . Wilt has the best stats and individual dominance. His raw numbers are brought down by him playing different roles later in his career (something MJ never did, outside of for 20 games and we hear all the time about them) but when asked to score and put up monster numbers for himself Wilt did it to a level no one else did.

MJ, LeBron have to rely more on "all of the above" or "eye test" and other fuzzy arguments to get there. For the others it is cleaner.

Where it gets fuzzy is nobody checks all of those boxes. Kareem has the longevity and stats, but doesn't have the winning compared to Russell. Lebrun has stats and longevity but not the winning compared to Russell, MJ, Kareem. MJ doesnt have the longevity, has stats but doesn't have the winning compared to Russell. I *personally* don't believe in a definitive GOAT but moreso tiers. There's so much context in winning, in stats, in era changes across decades that's it really impossible to argue with defined criteria. I like to look at dominance relative to era. How good were you against your peers? Those are the kinds of things I look at. I actually loathe the GOAT argument at this point.

[Roundball_Rock]

Where it gets fuzzy is nobody checks all of those boxes. Kareem has the longevity and stats, but doesn't have the winning compared to Russell. Lebrun has stats and longevity but not the winning compared to Russell, MJ, Kareem. MJ doesnt have the longevity, has stats but doesn't have the winning compared to Russel

With those other guys you can argue they are #1 in something and close in the other categories. KAJ arguably is #2 in individual dominance, for example, and longevity ties into it: if we are talking greatness and careers it should matter that one guy dominated for 17 years and the other guy did it for almost half the time (86', 95' are lost seasons and he missed 94', 99'-01' altogether and when he came back wasn't the player KAJ was at 38). Against LeBron, KAJ's edge is winning and (as noted) arguably ahead of him in dominance if you have him #2 behind Wilt there.

To met the argument for MJ has to be about skills--dominant on both ends, no real weakness, clutch, etc. The issue is all of that applies to KAJ as well. So if one guy did it for 17 and the other for 10 or 11 seasons, why is the guy who did it 50% or so less greater?


I like to look at dominance relative to era. How good were you against your peers?

The quality of peers varies, though.

It is all subjective. Everyone can have their own criteria and conclusions. I just think MJ, LeBron have issues since they aren't #1 in anything yet their fans present them as having bullet proof cases when Wilt, Kareem, Russell all have easier cases.

[RRR3]

You kinda have to ignore the playoffs to have Wilt as GOAT. I don’t care that he has “only” two rings. But his stats went down every year in the playoffs. Or almost every year at least.

[Phoenix]

With those other guys you can argue they are #1 in something and close in the other categories. KAJ arguably is #2 in individual dominance, for example, and longevity ties into it: if we are talking greatness and careers it should matter that one guy dominated for 17 years and the other guy did it for almost half the time (86', 95' are lost seasons and he missed 94', 99'-01' altogether and when he came back wasn't the player KAJ was at 38). Against LeBron, KAJ's edge is winning and (as noted) arguably ahead of him in dominance if you have him #2 behind Wilt there.

To met the argument for MJ has to be about skills--dominant on both ends, no real weakness, clutch, etc. The issue is all of that applies to KAJ as well. So if one guy did it for 17 and the other for 10 or 11 seasons, why is the guy who did it 50% or so less greater?



The quality of peers varies, though.

It is all subjective. Everyone can have their own criteria and conclusions. I just think MJ, LeBron have issues since they aren't #1 in anything yet their fans present them as having bullet proof cases when Wilt, Kareem, Russell all have easier cases.

Even on the issue of quality of peers I tend to look at it as you can only play who is in front of you. In 20 years you may have 7'3 point guards with Kyrie handles and Steph shooting ability. And what you see now would look 'primitive' by comparison. I dont think it's a fair conversation to either past athletes or modern ones. I just look at the eras as different. Compare like to like outside of something like longevity and even then the modern athlete has an edge due to advances in tech and medicines. Stats and winning above all require context.

[Roundball_Rock]

Even on the issue of quality of peers I tend to look at it as you can only play who is in front of you. In 20 years you may have 7'3 point guards with Kyrie handles and Steph shooting ability. And what you see now would look 'primitive' by comparison. I dont think it's a fair conversation to either past athletes or modern ones

True. I mostly agree with you: look at them in their era. My slight caveat is Wilt and Russell played during the same era so it was impossible for either to be the clear best player of his era like Kareem, MJ, LeBron were. So I don't hold it against them.


Compare like to like outside of something like longevity and even then the modern athlete has an edge due to advances in tech and medicines.

True--people forget this. That makes KAJ's longevity even more impressive since longevity was less in past eras yet a guy drafted in 1970 has the GOAT longevity.


Stats and winning above all require context.

Agreed. People boil winning down to boxing individual records. Stats differ based on roles and the better the team, the more it generally deflates a player's stats. Yet we see guys on contenders' stats compared with stats of people on .500 teams at face value.

[3ball]

A problem for MJ and LeBron's cases is they are not #1 in any of the key categories of greatness: stats, winning, or longevity. LeBron may eclipse KAJ in longevity but isn't there yet. Russell is the biggest winner. For all the hype about MJ--his ring total is closer to Wilt's than it is to Russell's. Somehow 6>3 without the same people grasping 11>6+3 :lol . Wilt has the best stats and individual dominance. His raw numbers are brought down by him playing different roles later in his career (something MJ never did, outside of for 20 games and we hear all the time about them) but when asked to score and put up monster numbers for himself Wilt did it to a level no one else did.

MJ, LeBron have to rely more on "all of the above" or "eye test" and other fuzzy arguments to get there. For the others it is cleaner.

mj has the goat stats - PER, BPM, ws/48, PPG - the goat production rate, aka goat stats

longevity means nothing because that's producing at a lower rate for longer (lesser PER for longer)

and we differentiate mj's rings from Russell's because mj's occurred in 3-pointer basketball, when dominant offense was required to be league MVP - so Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era - since 1980 (the beginning of 3-point line), all 40 league MVP's were dominant offensive players

since Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era, MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat modern accomplishment

[Shooter]

Beating a 73 win team without home court advantage in the NBA Finals in 3 straight games culminating in a championship for the hapless city of Cleveland while outperforming the first unanimous MVP in history who is also back to back all while leading both teams in every box score statistic and having a rookie and never heard from since coach in Ty Lue at the helm. Also, JR Smith was on the roster and his #2 option was a flat earther.

http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/denzel-washington-training-day-boom-reaction-Denzel-1384336932f.gif