Kawhi could potentially have three asterisked FMVPs

[StrongLurk]

Well 2014 FMVP isn't "asterisked", but it just doesn't matter for all-time rankings since Kawhi was still a role player who just happened to step up some. It's kind of like Robert Horry having seven rings...they don't hold "superstar" weight since Horry was a role player (although a good one). Kawhi averaged liked 14ppg throughout the 2014 playoffs and wasn't close to playing even like a top 50 player of all time. No one cares about Andre Iguodala's 2015 FMVP or even Chauncey Billups' 2004 FMVP.

2019 Kawhi had a great playoff run, but we know KD was the best player in the league that year and the Warriors definitely would have beaten the Raptors if KD was healthy. So Kawhi wouldn't even HAVE the 2019 FMVP if it was very a lot of luck. Imagine the 2008 Lakers playing the Celtics without KG in the finals and Ray Allen missing 1 and a half games...2008 Lakers would have won just as the 2019 Raptors won.

Now 2020...I mean this is shaping up to potentially be the biggest asterisk championship of the modern era. Even as things stand now, it's clearly an asterisked season...the only discussion is just HOW BAD will the asterisk be. Whichever team wins this year and whichever player wins FMVP gets a big ole fat Asterisk..

[AlternativeAcc.]

OP making a thread about LeBron while not mentioning his name.. pretty clever I must say

but you're #caught


Stay shook.












https://media1.giphy.com/media/xUA7bdHCwYgbeFODGU/giphy.gif

[StrongLurk]

OP making a thread about LeBron while not mentioning his name.. pretty clever I must say

but you're #caught


Stay shook.












https://media1.giphy.com/media/xUA7bdHCwYgbeFODGU/giphy.gif

?

?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably not. No.

[Jay-B]

How is 2014 asterisk? Are we really putting asterisks in finals mvp’s these days?

[ELITEpower23]

How is 2014 asterisk? Are we really putting asterisks in finals mvp’s these days?

It was like an Iggy FMVP

[LoneyROY7]

Shawn Michaels is coming for you.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/2tTJWIG3sVFr5HLo2Y/giphy.gif

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi dominated in 3/4 finals wins in 2014. Since then he's averaging 27 PPG on 50/40/88 shooting splits in playoffs and still playing elite defense. Kawhi as the leader in GmSc of a playoff series has eliminated LeBron, Embiid, Giannis, Curry, Harden.

Kawhi will now destroy Lebron or whoever before he eventually beats Embiid or Giannis again in the finals. Just shut your mouth and enjoy the ride of the future GOAT.

[StrongLurk]

How is 2014 asterisk? Are we really putting asterisks in finals mvp’s these days?

I said in my OP that 2014 isn't really an asterisk, it just doesn't matter for Kawhi's all time rankings since he was just a role player.

Only casuals will cite Kawhi's 2014 FMVP as something that boosts his all-time rankings. Basically nothing before the 2016 season matters for Kawhi's all time rankings.

This isn't me saying Kawhi isn't a great player. He's been somewhere in the top 2-5 since 2017

[ELITEpower23]

Kawhi dominated in 3/4 finals wins in 2014. Since then he's averaging 27 PPG on 50/40/88 shooting splits in playoffs and still playing elite defense. Kawhi as the leader in GmSc of a playoff series has eliminated LeBron, Embiid, Giannis, Curry, Harden.

Kawhi will now destroy Lebron or whoever before he eventually beats Embiid or Giannis again in the finals. Just shut your mouth and enjoy the ride of the future GOAT.

And just imagine. Kawhi is a top 40 guy and is as close to MJ for a modern era equibalent. Speaks volumes about MJs value. The other guy that is similar to MJ is a top 12 guy named Kobe. That's embarassing for MJ fans.

On the other hand, LeBron has no equal or near equal, he is comfortably #1 all-time and destroys #2-#5 all time as well.

LBJ, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, MJ.

MJ is in trouble, his equal in the modern era is top 40 Kawhi while Kareem, LeBron, Shaq, and Russell have no equivalent. Yikes.

[STATUTORY]

pre empty excuse making and damage control?

YIKES

[Axe]

And just imagine. Kawhi is a top 40 guy and is as close to MJ for a modern era equibalent. Speaks volumes about MJs value. The other guy that is similar to MJ is a top 12 guy named Kobe. That's embarassing for MJ fans.

On the other hand, LeBron has no equal or near equal, he is comfortably #1 all-time and destroys #2-#5 all time as well.

LBJ, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, MJ.

MJ is in trouble, his equal in the modern era is top 40 Kawhi while Kareem, LeBron, Shaq, and Russell have no equivalent. Yikes.
Sure.

Losing 6 finals is definitely one case for being the goat of them all.

Unfortunately, mj doesn't have that luxury so he will be out of that conversation as he is very selfish.

[SouBeachTalents]

I really hate the reasoning behind 2019. What team over the last 20 years would be favored to beat the healthy Warriors? Name a champ in that time frame besides maybe the '01 Lakers you would actually pick to beat the Warriors in a series?

And are the Warriors last year really any worse than the likes of the '01 Sixers, '02/'03 Nets, '07 Cavs, the 8 seeded Knicks without Ewing? You really don't think the Raptors are smashing those teams? I just don't see the logic in penalizing Kawhi for losing to a team if healthy that virtually every other player would've lost to, and for beating a team that honestly is still better or at worst comparable to some of the teams that previous champs were beating in the Finals

[Roundball_Rock]

I just don't see the logic in penalizing Kawhi for losing to a team if healthy that virtually every other player would've lost to, and for beating a team that honestly is still better or at worst comparable to some of the teams that previous champs were beating in the Finals

I think the beef a lot of people have (me included) is the entire Kawhi hype train revolves around those two rings. The 2019 ring was a fluke and he was a role player in 2014 (no different than Iggy in 15' substantively). Yet he is being compared to Kareem, LeBron, Jordan and even Durant on the basis of those two rings. If the Warriors were healthy we wouldn't be having these conversations about Kawhi.

The two tie together. If his 2014 ring were more legit his 2019 ring wouldn't get the same scrutiny. The guy wins as a 13/6/2 player and people are comparing that ring at face value with rings won by people who were MVP's.

[tpols]

2014 wasn't an asterisk. He was the lynch pin for the biggest blowout in Finals history.

If anything it's the opposite of an asterisk.

[tpols]

Also the game 7 gamewinner and backdoor sweep of the bucks transcends the fact the dubs were hurt.

A lot of people don't remember they were down 0-2 in the ECF's which puts like an 80% chance of losing the series historically.

Kawhi led a perrenial laughingstock playoff team to a title in his very first year with them, toronto winning by a slim margin largely off his volition and performance.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And just imagine. Kawhi is a top 40 guy and is as close to MJ for a modern era equibalent. Speaks volumes about MJs value. The other guy that is similar to MJ is a top 12 guy named Kobe. That's embarassing for MJ fans.

On the other hand, LeBron has no equal or near equal, he is comfortably #1 all-time and destroys #2-#5 all time as well.

LBJ, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, MJ.

MJ is in trouble, his equal in the modern era is top 40 Kawhi while Kareem, LeBron, Shaq, and Russell have no equivalent. Yikes.

87 Magic is LeBron
Jordan is Kawhi

Everybody knows who is better

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I really hate the reasoning behind 2019. What team over the last 20 years would be favored to beat the healthy Warriors? Name a champ in that time frame besides maybe the '01 Lakers you would actually pick to beat the Warriors in a series?

And are the Warriors last year really any worse than the likes of the '01 Sixers, '02/'03 Nets, '07 Cavs, the 8 seeded Knicks without Ewing? You really don't think the Raptors are smashing those teams? I just don't see the logic in penalizing Kawhi for losing to a team if healthy that virtually every other player would've lost to, and for beating a team that honestly is still better or at worst comparable to some of the teams that previous champs were beating in the Finals

He had the toughest east path in NBA history and averaged 44% usage and 4 offensive rebounds in closeout games vs 76ers/bucks

In the finals, he matched LeBron's 2016 by beating the core of Curry/Klay/Dray/Iggy with 1 of them missing a game.

[Shooter]

Also the game 7 gamewinner and backdoor sweep of the bucks transcends the fact the dubs were hurt.

A lot of people don't remember they were down 0-2 in the ECF's which puts like an 80% chance of losing the series historically.

Kawhi led a perrenial laughingstock playoff team to a title in his very first year with them, toronto winning by a slim margin largely off his volition and performance.

80% chance of losing? I wonder what are the chances of losing when you're down 3-1 and facing two games on the road against the 73 win warriors.

[Shooter]

87 Magic is LeBron
Jordan is Kawhi

Everybody knows who is better

No one is close to LeBron's scoring measures with his passing measures so you are missing half of the offensive end. Also, defensively LeBron is all time great so again, no one is close to LeBron. Lebron scores at a rate not matched by anyone except for Jordan.

[tpols]

80% chance of losing? I wonder what are the chances of losing when you're down 3-1 and facing two games on the road against the 73 win warriors.

with a suspension and seasoning ending injury to their starting frontcourt that winning percentage plummets.

bucks didn't lose anybody.

[Shooter]

with a suspension and seasoning ending injury to their starting frontcourt that winning percentage plummets.

bucks didn't lose anybody.

Q1: Why did Draymond get suspended?
Q2: How many games did he get suspend for?
Q3: Why are you so focused on the Warriors 4th best player?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No one is close to LeBron's scoring measures with his passing measures so you are missing half of the offensive end. Also, defensively LeBron is all time great so again, no one is close to LeBron. Lebron scores at a rate not matched by anyone except for Jordan.

LeBron only averaged 26PPG in playoffs for his 2016 title. His teammate Irving averaged more then that in the finals! (27PPG). LeBron also had poor scoring efficiency in the 2013 finals.

Lets see LeBron score 732 points on 62% TS against two teams led by Embiid and Giannis. Kawhi has the deadly mid range pull up scoring ability that LeBron simply doesn't have, kawhi is also a much better 3 point shooter and free throw shooter. Kawhi is easily a better scorer then Lebron, anybody can see that by just watching both of them.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Q1: Why did Draymond get suspended?
Q2: How many games did he get suspend for?
Q3: Why are you so focused on the Warriors 4th best player?

Draymond was warriors #1 player in GmSc at 17.2 during 2016 finals. Curry/Klay didn't even really come close at 11.9 and 13.1

[Shooter]

Draymond was warriors #1 player in GmSc at 17.2 during 2016 finals. Curry/Klay didn't even really come close at 11.9 and 13.1

Cavaliers actually won by more with Draymond in the lineup, as discovered below.

The Cavaliers won 4 games in the 2016 Finals to win the chip. Games 3, 5, 6, and 7. The Draymond suspension myth is proven wrong for many reasons, one being that the Cavaliers actually won by a greater margin in the 3 games he did play, as opposed to the one game he did not play in. Crushing, revealing information below:


Games where Draymond played and Cavs win
Game: GSW vs CLE
Game 3: 90 to 120 (CLE win by 30)
Game 6: 101 to 115 (CLE win by 14)
Game 7: 89 to 93 (CLE win by 4)


Games where Draymond did not play and Cavs win
Game: GSW vs CLE
Game 5: 97 to 112 (CLE win by 15)

In the 3 games where Draymond played, CLE won by an average of 16
In the 1 game where Draymond didn't play, CLE won by 15

Cleveland's margin of victory w/ Draymond playing was 16 (Game 3, 6, 7) but Cleveland's margin of Victory w/o Draymond playing was only 15 (Game 5).

Did Draymond's suspension help Golden State?

[Shooter]

Draymond was warriors #1 player in GmSc at 17.2 during 2016 finals. Curry/Klay didn't even really come close at 11.9 and 13.1

Great, glad you could admit Game Score is relevant. So using your measurements we can safely conclude that Kawhi is no where near LeBron's level.

Finals Game Score
2016 LeBron: 26.5
2019 Kawhi: 23.9

Mind you these numbers were against different teams, essentially LeBron faced a much stronger version of what Kawhi faced. So on top of facing a better team, LeBron also performed at a higher level. Which we all knew, but just had to show you the details. Thanks for mentioning Game Score and thank you for this conclusion, enjoy your weekend.

[StrongLurk]

I think the beef a lot of people have (me included) is the entire Kawhi hype train revolves around those two rings. The 2019 ring was a fluke and he was a role player in 2014 (no different than Iggy in 15' substantively). Yet he is being compared to Kareem, LeBron, Jordan and even Durant on the basis of those two rings. If the Warriors were healthy we wouldn't be having these conversations about Kawhi.

The two tie together. If his 2014 ring were more legit his 2019 ring wouldn't get the same scrutiny. The guy wins as a 13/6/2 player and people are comparing that ring at face value with rings won by people who were MVP's.

Bro I am so glad you are on ISH. I swear I post obvious, objective information and so many people just don't want to accept it.

You actually get my posts and I agree with like 90% of what you post.

I just don't understand this board. We know if KD is healthy last year, Kawhi is stuck at ONE ROLE PLAYER RING. The same people who don't give Lebron ANY LEEWAY for losing to far better teams will jump all over Kawhi to defend his ring in 2019 and act like it was perfectly legit. How can KD, who was the best player last year, get injured right before the finals (was averaging 35/5/5 up until the injury) and not matter?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Cavaliers actually won by more with Draymond in the lineup, as discovered below.

The Cavaliers won 4 games in the 2016 Finals to win the chip. Games 3, 5, 6, and 7. The Draymond suspension myth is proven wrong for many reasons, one being that the Cavaliers actually won by a greater margin in the 3 games he did play, as opposed to the one game he did not play in. Crushing, revealing information below:


Games where Draymond played and Cavs win
Game: GSW vs CLE
Game 3: 90 to 120 (CLE win by 30)
Game 6: 101 to 115 (CLE win by 14)
Game 7: 89 to 93 (CLE win by 4)


Games where Draymond did not play and Cavs win
Game: GSW vs CLE
Game 5: 97 to 112 (CLE win by 15)

In the 3 games where Draymond played, CLE won by an average of 16
In the 1 game where Draymond didn't play, CLE won by 15

Cleveland's margin of victory w/ Draymond playing was 16 (Game 3, 6, 7) but Cleveland's margin of Victory w/o Draymond playing was only 15 (Game 5).

Did Draymond's suspension help Golden State?

Warriors game 1 win: Draymond has a 11.9 BPM to Curry's -10.5 BPM. That's a +22.8 BPM advantage for Draymond

Warriors game 2 win: Draymond again leads warriors in BPM at 15.9 to Curry's 10.7 BPM. Draymond also scores 28 points which is 10 points higher then anybody on the team.

Warriors game 7: Draymond has a 96% TS and puts up 32 points 15 rebounds 9 assists with a 24.0 BPM to Curry's -4.7 BPM

So Draymond carried warriors in 3 games including 2 wins and a game 7. Yes, he was extremely valuable to the team and their best player that series.

[tpols]

Bro I am so glad you are on ISH. I swear I post obvious, objective information and so many people just don't want to accept it.

You actually get my posts and I agree with like 90% of what you post.

I just don't understand this board. We know if KD is healthy last year, Kawhi is stuck at ONE ROLE PLAYER RING. The same people who don't give Lebron ANY LEEWAY for losing to far better teams will jump all over Kawhi to defend his ring in 2019 and act like it was perfectly legit. How can KD, who was the best player last year, get injured right before the finals (was averaging 35/5/5 up until the injury) and not matter?

You are mentally retarded if you don't count kawhi's toronto ring.

The man joined siakam and lowry and instantly ringed.

Lebron joined dwayne wade and chris bosh and was embarrassed in devastating fashion.

you nee to re-evaluate your priorities.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Great, glad you could admit Game Score is relevant. So using your measurements we can safely conclude that Kawhi is no where near LeBron's level.

Finals Game Score
2016 LeBron: 26.5
2019 Kawhi: 23.9

Mind you these numbers were against different teams, essentially LeBron faced a much stronger version of what Kawhi faced. So on top of facing a better team, LeBron also performed at a higher level. Which we all knew, but just had to show you the details. Thanks for mentioning Game Score and thank you for this conclusion, enjoy your weekend.

Curry was the warriors leader in GmSc for 2019 finals and played every game.

Draymond was the warriors leader in GmSc for 2016 finals and missed a game.

You came to the conclusion that this makes LeBron look better then Kawhi? Lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481310-Why-Kawhi-beating-Warriors-was-more-impressive-then-Lebron-beating-Warriors

You can read my thread on that. LeBron had more help relative to his 2nd option then Kawhi had. Kawhi still beat warriors in 6 and it took LeBron 7.

GmSc gap for Kawhi/Siakam - 8.1

GmSc gap for LeBron/Irving - 7.4

[StrongLurk]

You are mentally retarded if you don't count kawhi's toronto ring.

The man joined siakam and lowry and instantly ringed. Lebron joined dwayne wade and chris bosh and was embarrassed in devastating fashion.

you nee to re-evaluate your priorities.

I guess the best player in the league getting injured before the finals doesn't matter to you. Got it, thanks. No need for further discussion.

[SouBeachTalents]

I guess the best player in the league getting injured before the finals doesn't matter to you. Got it, thanks. No need for further discussion.
The Warriors were the favorites in the Finals, without HCA, without the best player in the league

[StrongLurk]

The Warriors were the favorites in the Finals, without HCA, without the best player in the league

Meaningless information. Whoever Vegas or ESPN thinks of as "Favorite" doesn't matter.

We know the Raptors won the 2019 finals because KD had a devastating injury.

Even in the 11 minutes KD played injured in the finals...he scored like 12 points and dominated. KD is one of the best finals performers in history, so you can't just brush that off.

[Akeem34TheDream]

What do you think about KD's rings OP? I bet you rate them pretty highly.

[tpols]

I guess the best player in the league getting injured before the finals doesn't matter to you. Got it, thanks. No need for further discussion.

when did chef curry get hurt?

[Shooter]

Curry was the warriors leader in GmSc for 2019 finals and played every game.

Draymond was the warriors leader in GmSc for 2016 finals and missed a game.

You came to the conclusion that this makes LeBron look better then Kawhi? Lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481310-Why-Kawhi-beating-Warriors-was-more-impressive-then-Lebron-beating-Warriors

You can read my thread on that. LeBron had more help relative to his 2nd option then Kawhi had. Kawhi still beat warriors in 6 and it took LeBron 7.

GmSc gap for Kawhi/Siakam - 8.1

GmSc gap for LeBron/Irving - 7.4

First off you're wrong about a lot of things. How do you create such fantasy? How does it feel to lie to prove a point that is an ill-fated point to begin with?

LeBron beat a better team, with a better game score, and a better performance, with a worse team.

Lebron's #3 option Game Score is equal to Kawhi's #6 option. Almost nothing you are typing is real or makes sense. Now I'm going to start pulling your move.

LeBron has more rings than Jordan.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I guess the best player in the league getting injured before the finals doesn't matter to you. Got it, thanks. No need for further discussion.

The best player in the league was healthy and he wore #2 and played for the raptors.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

First off you're wrong about a lot of things. How do you create such fantasy? How does it feel to lie to prove a point that is an ill-fated point to begin with?

LeBron beat a better team, with a better game score, and a better performance, with a worse team.

Lebron's #3 option Game Score is equal to Kawhi's #6 option. Almost nothing you are typing is real or makes sense. Now I'm going to start pulling your move.

LeBron has more rings than Jordan.

In a best of 7 series, you focus in on how the stars performed. Not how the role players performed.

What made warriors a better team? Because their record? By that logic, baron davis eliminating the 67 win Mavs in 07 was better then Lebron eliminating the 57 win spurs in 2013. You see how stupid that sounds? That's the type of shit you're trying to pull.

[Shooter]

In a best of 7 series, you focus in on how the stars performed. Not how the role players performed.


Right. So LeBron is the star. He outperformed everyone. Even outperformed 2019 Kawhi in another series :lol And to top it off. we get this gem:

https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/LeBron_1st.png

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Right. So LeBron is the star. He outperformed everyone. Even outperformed 2019 Kawhi in another series :lol And to top it off. we get this gem:

https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/LeBron_1st.png

Easy east path and in finals Irving averaged more PPG then Lebron's playoff PPG.

Still doesn't hold up to Kawhi's east carry job and finishing off warriors in 6 instead of 7.

[Axe]

Easy east path and in finals Irving averaged more PPG then Lebron's playoff PPG.

Still doesn't hold up to Kawhi's east carry job and finishing off warriors in 6 instead of 7.
Lol you're replying to the same troll who has a lot of banished dups under his arsenal.

[imdaman99]

Yeah, just how will he sleep at night :rolleyes:

[Horatio33]

Lol you're replying to the same troll who has a lot of banished dups under his arsenal.

Youve posted 4084 times since February on this board and most of your posts are of you hanging off another posters nuts when they make a point.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Warriors were the favorites in the Finals, without HCA, without the best player in the league

They probably would have won if it was just KD who was hurt but Klay missed a game and got hurt while dominating in Game 6. They lost both of those games. Iggy, Cousins, Looney were all banged up too. So when 5 of your top 7 guys have injuries it will be tough to win--and they still almost forced a Game 7.


The man joined siakam and lowry and instantly ringed.

The same team that has a better record without Kawhi than the Clippers do with Kawhi/PG joining. :lol

[Bronbron23]

Well 2014 FMVP isn't "asterisked", but it just doesn't matter for all-time rankings since Kawhi was still a role player who just happened to step up some. It's kind of like Robert Horry having seven rings...they don't hold "superstar" weight since Horry was a role player (although a good one). Kawhi averaged liked 14ppg throughout the 2014 playoffs and wasn't close to playing even like a top 50 player of all time. No one cares about Andre Iguodala's 2015 FMVP or even Chauncey Billups' 2004 FMVP.

2019 Kawhi had a great playoff run, but we know KD was the best player in the league that year and the Warriors definitely would have beaten the Raptors if KD was healthy. So Kawhi wouldn't even HAVE the 2019 FMVP if it was very a lot of luck. Imagine the 2008 Lakers playing the Celtics without KG in the finals and Ray Allen missing 1 and a half games...2008 Lakers would have won just as the 2019 Raptors won.

Now 2020...I mean this is shaping up to potentially be the biggest asterisk championship of the modern era. Even as things stand now, it's clearly an asterisked season...the only discussion is just HOW BAD will the asterisk be. Whichever team wins this year and whichever player wins FMVP gets a big ole fat Asterisk..

Well 2014 definitely wasnt an asterisk and last year really wasnt either. Just because the warriors weren't stacked beyond fairness dosnt mean its an asterisk. Who did kawhi have? 2 overrated midgets one of them whos chunky and pascal siakam? Siakam is nice but hes still growing and learning the game. Raps really arnt that nice they just play smart and hard. If kawhi's fmvp are asterisks then so are alot of other greats including lebron.

[StrongLurk]

Well 2014 definitely wasnt an asterisk and last year really wasnt either. Just because the warriors weren't stacked beyond fairness dosnt mean its an asterisk. Who did kawhi have? 2 overrated midgets one of them whos chunky and pascal siakam? Siakam is nice but hes still growing and learning the game. Raps really arnt that nice they just play smart and hard. If kawhi's fmvp are asterisks then so are alot of other greats including lebron.

This is a very ignorant post showing your bias badly. Yikes. Do some soul searching.

[Bronbron23]

This is a very ignorant post showing your bias badly. Yikes. Do some soul searching.

Care to be more specific? What is ignorant? Do you really think the raps are loaded?

[Shooter]

Care to be more specific? What is ignorant? Do you really think the raps are loaded?

The 2018 Raptors had the top 75 best SRS team of all- time.
They won 59 games.

Then they swapped DeMar DeRozan for Kawhi Leonard, Marc Gasol, Danny Green, and a much improved Pascal Siakam.

What do you think?

[Roundball_Rock]

Raptors in 2020: 46-18
Clippers in 2020: 44-20

If it was all Kawhi, how can this be true? It is the same roster, except they lost superstar Kawhi and his starting spot was "filled" by Anunoby.

[Bronbron23]

The 2018 Raptors had the top 75 best SRS team of all- time.
They won 59 games.

Then they swapped DeMar DeRozan for Kawhi Leonard, Marc Gasol, Danny Green, and a much improved Pascal Siakam.

What do you think?

Who gives a shit qbout top whatever. Were they ever a contender or serious threat come playoff time? Did anyone think for a second they would beat lebron and then go on to beat the warriors? Hell no and if you say otherwise your lying or live in Toronto.

The fact is kawhi made them a serious contender. Nobody took them serious until he got there.

[Bronbron23]

Raptors in 2020: 46-18
Clippers in 2020: 44-20

If it was all Kawhi, how can this be true? It is the same roster, except they lost superstar Kawhi and his starting spot was "filled" by Anunoby.

Thats great but your talking regular season dude. Its meaningless especially when were talking about kawhi who doant play half the time and when he does hes on cruise control saving himself for deep in the playoffs.

Ill ask you the same thing i asked the other dude. Were the Raptors ever a contender until kawhi got there? Are they a contender now?

[Roundball_Rock]

Thats great but your talking regular season dude

True--but that is all we have to date. What they do in the playoffs will be important in the ultimate legacy of the 20' team but we don't have that information yet. The other side is--and people always ignore this piece--is we have to see what Kawhi does without the Raptor's players. It would be funny if the Raptors make it farther than the Clips, although unlikely.


Were the Raptors ever a contender until kawhi got there? Are they a contender now?

They made the ECF in 16', won 59 games in 18' (51 wins in 17'--not sure why people lump that in with 16', 18'), were on a 59 win pace this year. They were a contender to some degree with that level of success, even if a second-tier contender. Their lack of a superstar hurt them but look at those losses. They kept losing to LeBron's teams that won the conference each of those years. It isn't like they were losing to a random team.

If the Raptors make the ECF this year would that really surprise you? If I had to bet it will be MIL and BOS, but if it isn't Boston it likely will be Toronto. They have a better shot than the Sixers, Pacers, Heat of making the ECF imo.

[Shooter]

Raptors in 2020: 46-18
Clippers in 2020: 44-20

If it was all Kawhi, how can this be true? It is the same roster, except they lost superstar Kawhi and his starting spot was "filled" by Anunoby.

Sounds to me like another Pete Myers for MJ, Anunoby for Kawhi deal. This cant be good, it sounds like very low impact.

[Roundball_Rock]

It definitely isn't a good look but if the Raptors lose in the first round or make the second round and get crushed there (e.g., like the Celtics with Kyrie in 19') then their RS record will be viewed the same way as their pre-Kawhi records were. If they make the ECF or come close to doing so that will validate them (as would a finals trip of course but I am thinking the ECF/ECSF are their likely outcomes).

[Bronbron23]

True--but that is all we have to date. What they do in the playoffs will be important in the ultimate legacy of the 20' team but we don't have that information yet. The other side is--and people always ignore this piece--is we have to see what Kawhi does without the Raptor's players. It would be funny if the Raptors make it farther than the Clips, although unlikely.



They made the ECF in 16', won 59 games in 18' (51 wins in 17'--not sure why people lump that in with 16', 18'), were on a 59 win pace this year. They were a contender to some degree with that level of success, even if a second-tier contender. Their lack of a superstar hurt them but look at those losses. They kept losing to LeBron's teams that won the conference each of those years. It isn't like they were losing to a random team.

If the Raptors make the ECF this year would that really surprise you? If I had to bet it will be MIL and BOS, but if it isn't Boston it likely will be Toronto. They have a better shot than the Sixers, Pacers, Heat of making the ECF imo.

im not saying they sucked, they were definitely a good team but pretty much everyone knew tbey weren't gonna make the finals in any year theyve ever played other than last hear. Even this year as defending champs with a really good up coming star in siakam i dont think anyone takes them seriously and i like siakam alot. Theres really only 2 teams that are contenders this year and they're both in the same city. Nobody in the east has a chance really. If i had to pick one it be bucks or boston like you say but either is a long shot.

[Shooter]

raptors in 2020: 46-18
clippers in 2020: 44-20

if it was all kawhi, how can this be true? It is the same roster, except they lost superstar kawhi and his starting spot was "filled" by anunoby.

another
....n
....e

[Bronbron23]

Sounds to me like another Pete Myers for MJ, Anunoby for Kawhi deal. This cant be good, it sounds like very low impact.

Yup and just like the bulls in 94 the raps arnt a serious contender and they'll lose in the playoffs. They might win the first or second round but thats it. They're not beating boston and theyre not beating the bucs. Shit they probably wouldn't even beat philly. Just like the raps before kawhi nobody is taking them seriously.

[Roundball_Rock]

im not saying they sucked, they were definitely a good team but pretty much everyone knew tbey weren't gonna make the finals in any year theyve ever played other than last hear.

That is true--but using that standard only 2-3 teams were contenders during that time. We know it was going to be GS and CLE each year--with Houston the only wild card for 18'.


Even this year as defending champs with a really good up coming star in siakam i dont think anyone takes them seriously and i like siakam alot. Theres really only 2 teams that are contenders this year and they're both in the same city. Nobody in the east has a chance really. If i had to pick one it be bucks or boston like you say but either is a long shot.

If you define contender that way I get your point. To me I put them in tiers. LAL, LAC, MIL are the top tier and HOU, BOS, TOR are in the second tier and then you have dark horses like OKC, UTA, DEN, PHI, MIA. I consider the first two tier teams real contenders. I am not as definitive in writing teams off because injuries can happen (19' finals) or big upsets (11' Mavs). EC teams have an easier road to the finals since only one of the top three teams are in the EC--and Toronto and Boston via being the 2/3 seeds are in the opposite bracket of MIL. If they face them, it is in the ECF and you just never know. Cavs were supposed to make it in 10' and lost in the second round, for instance.