Is Montrezl Harrell+Lou Williams the best bench duo in NBA history?

[Clippersfan86]

Clippers are now the leagues best bench 3 years in a row. In that span they average 50+ ppg in bench scoring. The Clippers as a team have won 4/6 6th man of the year awards in the last 6 years and could win another this year potentially. The last 2 years though with the Trez/Lou duo they have just gone nuts.

In the last two years Lou Williams - 28 minutes per game: 19.5 ppg (he put up 22.6 the year before on Clips), 5.5 apg, 3 rpg. #1 all time bench scorer now.

In the last two years Montrezl Harrell - 27 minutes per game: 17.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg (2.5 Orpg), 2 apg, 1 bpg.


If not, which duo is clearly better to you? There have been many better individual 6th men like Manu for example who was basically a superstar, but I can't think of another bench duo where both guys are borderline all star caliber tier.

Something amazing about these two? They are considered underpaid big time and huge value contracts. Lou Williams is making 8 million per year, Trez 6 million.

[MrFonzworth]

Lou Williams and Thaddeus Young would be my homer pick. They were both top 3 in 6MOTY voting one year I believe.

[Clippersfan86]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U94qOlfEOc

Very good video about the Lou/Trez duo from last year. The inside story. Allen Iverson's star pupil. His rookie. Both guys were 2nd round picks.

[MrFonzworth]

The answer is no.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lou is a nice regular season player who can feast on bad teams. When it comes to playoffs, just give the damn ball to Leonard if you want to win the game. Lou has 0.1 VORP in his last 28 playoff games. Looks like another year of 44% average usage in close out games for Kawhi like he did last year vs Bucks/76ers

[1987_Lakers]

McAdoo & Cooper?

[Clippersfan86]

Lou is a nice regular season player who can feast on bad teams. When it comes to playoffs, just give the damn ball to Leonard if you want to win the game. Lou has 0.1 VORP in his last 28 playoff games. Looks like another year of 44% average usage in close out games for Kawhi like he did last year vs Bucks/76ers

Not the case. Lou was EASILY #1 player last year in crunch time, and this year he's come up big in the clutch again. He's done PLENTY of his damage against good teams, including the 50 piece 2 seasons ago vs GS. He's a really bad defender and that limits his impact, but to say give the ball to Kawhi and get out of the way is going a bit too far. In general in the playoffs scoring role players tend to get neutralized quite a bit, but Lou's value is still there. He's #14 in the NBA in ORPM for example.

[Clippersfan86]

The answer is no.

Which better ones come to mind?

[Kblaze8855]

McAdoo & Cooper?

Cooper, Worthy, and mcadoo were all off the bench for the lakers at the same time.

And then you have Rodman and the Microwave for the pistons off the ben h together.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not the case. Lou was EASILY #1 player last year in crunch time, and this year he's come up big in the clutch again. He's done PLENTY of his damage against good teams, including the 50 piece 2 seasons ago vs GS. He's a really bad defender and that limits his impact, but to say give the ball to Kawhi and get out of the way is going a bit too far. In general in the playoffs scoring role players tend to get neutralized quite a bit, but Lou's value is still there. He's #14 in the NBA in ORPM for example.

Lou is a good regular season player I agree but playoffs is a different game. There's so many switches in today's game and the great teams will target his defense. Leaving him to get exposed. I like him as a 15-18 mins guy in playoffs only, anymore is pushing it. You know how doc loves over playing him. Lou doesn't add much value in a playoff series when being game planned against and he's proven me right with his 0.1 VORP in the last 27 games. Kawhi can cover up Lou's weaknesses like Duncan did for Tony Parker but it makes me nervous a little bit. We will see what happens with Lou, I'm not trying to hate on the guy I'm just warning you.

Harrell is a good player I do agree there,my only problem with him is his tunnel vision.

[ralph_i_el]

Lou ends up drawing a lot less fouls in the playoffs over his career, but that didn't seem to be the case last time.

[Clippersfan86]

Cooper, Worthy, and mcadoo were all off the bench for the lakers at the same time.

And then you have Rodman and the Microwave for the pistons off the ben h together.

What year? Because in a Lakers uniform McAdoo for example averaged 13/4 or so from 82-86. Cooper never once broke 10 ppg in that span. I realize scoring isn't everything and Michael Cooper was a great defender, but you can't say the same about McAdoo. So you basically have an 8 ppg defensive specialist.. and a 13/4 type guy (McAdoo fell off a cliff in 79 at just 27 years old).

[Clippersfan86]

Lou is a good regular season player I agree but playoffs is a different game. There's so many switches in today's game and the great teams will target his defense. Leaving him to get exposed. I like him as a 15-18 mins guy in playoffs only, anymore is pushing it. You know how doc loves over playing him. Lou doesn't add much value in a playoff series when being game planned against and he's proven me right with his 0.1 VORP in the last 27 games. Kawhi can cover up Lou's weaknesses like Duncan did for Tony Parker but it makes me nervous a little bit. We will see what happens with Lou, I'm not trying to hate on the guy I'm just warning you.

Harrell is a good player I do agree there,my only problem with him is his tunnel vision.

You've seen me on the other forum hammer Doc for overplaying both guys. You're mostly right, but in your efforts to prop Kawhi you sometimes underestimate other guy's values. I see value in not just the finished play, but also in the threat. The fact that teams actually zone in on Lou and try to shut him down in itself has HUGE value. Same thing with teams trying to shut down the Trez PNR. It's a gravity, the same way JJ Redick is at the 3 point line. Even if he's shut down, the thought of him bombing 3's attracts a lot of attention from defenses.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You've seen me on the other forum hammer Doc for overplaying both guys. You're mostly right, but in your efforts to prop Kawhi you sometimes underestimate other guy's values. I see value in not just the finished play, but also in the threat. The fact that teams actually zone in on Lou and try to shut him down in itself has HUGE value. Same thing with teams trying to shut down the Trez PNR. It's a gravity, the same way JJ Redick is at the 3 point line. Even if he's shut down, the thought of him bombing 3's attracts a lot of attention from defenses.

Yeah I know you're a good poster man so I'm not getting on ya. Kawhi had a 40% usage in a closeout game vs #1 defense bucks last year and raptors ended up with a 117 offensive rating that game. When you need him most, Kawhi gets shit done. Does Lou fit with Kawhi? That we will see in the playoffs. How Lou and Harrell can play off Kawhi is how their careers will ultimately be defined.

[Clippersfan86]

Yeah I know you're a good poster man so I'm not getting on ya. Kawhi had a 40% usage in a closeout game vs #1 defense bucks last year and raptors ended up with a 117 offensive rating that game. When you need him most, Kawhi gets shit done. Does Lou fit with Kawhi? That we will see in the playoffs. How Lou and Harrell can play off Kawhi is how their careers will ultimately be defined.

Harrell was really bad on D vs the Warriors insane talent edge last year.. BUT he put up 20 ppg on stupid efficiency guarded mostly by Draymond Green. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt. In general role playing, or high volume scoring guards that aren't full on superstars definitely get held down a lot in the playoffs. Believe me, I have no doubt Kawhi is THE guy here lol.

[jayfan]

No, because the premise is bogus. They aren't really 'bench players.' They aren't true reserves. They are starters who prefer coming in 5 minutes after the game starts. Harrell is not 'behind' Zubac. Lou isn't 'behind' anyone.

If you want a legitimate all-time bench, look at the '87-'89 Bad Boy Pistons. Vinne Johnson/Dennis Rodman/John Salley/James Edwards.


.

[Kblaze8855]

What year? Because in a Lakers uniform McAdoo for example averaged 13/4 or so from 82-86. Cooper never once broke 10 ppg in that span. I realize scoring isn't everything and Michael Cooper was a great defender, but you can't say the same about McAdoo. So you basically have an 8 ppg defensive specialist.. and a 13/4 type guy (McAdoo fell off a cliff in 79 at just 27 years old).


He had a few years of injuries but he was still a scoring machine. 17/7 off the bench in the playoffs on a title run for a super deep team. What more was he supposed to do? 15/5 in 20 minutes the entire next season. He did his thing.

[tpols]

i had harrell and gordon when they blew up a couple years ago.

that guy is a 90s throwback player.